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Marie and I talk about consistency and how critical it was to her success with Notion and her course and community Notion Mastery. We also talk about how discovering she was neurodivergent explained so much about how her brain worked and has helped her figure out how to set up systems that work the way she does.
Show Notes
Sometimes the challenges to consistency come from self-sabotage, things like distraction, boredom, imposter syndrome.
But especially for folks who are neurodivergent or dealing with chronic issues or disabilities, consistency comes with additional challenges that require you to figure out how to manage unpredictable energy levels, or how to cope with executive function issues.
Most common productivity advice centers on the idea of trying to do more work, to shove more into the day, to force yourself to change your behavior so you can do more.
But what if you don't want to do more? What if you just want to make it easier on yourself to do the work you love?
Or what if your brain or energy levels just don't work the same way that the productivity bros hawking the advice do? Then a lot of that advice is just downright useless.
The real key is figuring out how your brain works and creating an environment that supports you in doing your best work. And that may take some experimentation, but it probably won’t happen following someone else’s hacks.
Marie Poulin, of Notion Mastery, helps ambitious business owners level up their digital systems, workflow, and productivity, so they can spend more time on what matters. She's been an influential voice in the Notion community, has a big following on her Notion Youtube channel, and has created a lot of the Notion resources available today.
Marie also recently discovered that she has ADHD, so her brain works a little differently and things like consistency, scripting or executive functioning–like deciding what to prioritize working on–can be extra challenging.
Marie and I talk about consistency and how critical it was to her success with Notion and her course and community Notion Mastery. We also talk about how discovering she was neurodivergent explained so much about how her brain worked and has helped her figure out how to set up systems that work the way she does.
But especially for folks who are neurodivergent or dealing with chronic issues or disabilities, consistency comes with additional challenges that require you to figure out how to manage unpredictable energy levels, or how to cope with executive function issues.
Most common productivity advice centers on the idea of trying to do more work, to shove more into the day, to force yourself to change your behavior so you can do more.
But what if you don't want to do more? What if you just want to make it easier on yourself to do the work you love?
Or what if your brain or energy levels just don't work the same way that the productivity bros hawking the advice do? Then a lot of that advice is just downright useless.
The real key is figuring out how your brain works and creating an environment that supports you in doing your best work. And that may take some experimentation, but it probably won’t happen following someone else’s hacks.
Marie Poulin, of Notion Mastery, helps ambitious business owners level up their digital systems, workflow, and productivity, so they can spend more time on what matters. She's been an influential voice in the Notion community, has a big following on her Notion Youtube channel, and has created a lot of the Notion resources available today.
Marie also recently discovered that she has ADHD, so her brain works a little differently and things like consistency, scripting or executive functioning–like deciding what to prioritize working on–can be extra challenging.
Marie and I talk about consistency and how critical it was to her success with Notion and her course and community Notion Mastery. We also talk about how discovering she was neurodivergent explained so much about how her brain worked and has helped her figure out how to set up systems that work the way she does.
Listen to the full episode to hear:
- How Marie uses making public commitments as an external motivator to keep herself consistent
- Why she learned to build in opportunities for later iteration and improvement to projects so she can be finished enough for now
- How Marie stumbled into her ADHD diagnosis and how she gave herself permission to accept that her brain works differently
- Tools for noting when and how you work best so you can minimize resistance in your schedule
Learn more about Marie Poulin:
- Mariepoulin.com
- Notion Mastery
- youtube.com/c/mariepoulin
- How to Run Your Life Inside of Notion
- Instagram: @mariepoulin
- Twitter: @mariepoulin
Learn more about Susan:
- Scalespark.co
- Twitter @ScaleSpark
- LinkedIn @thesusanboles
Creators & Guests
What is Beyond Margins: Build a calmer business with comfortable margins?
Can you build a business based on… “calm?” On Beyond Margins, host Susan Boles looks beyond the usual metrics of success to help you build a business where calm is the new KPI. With over 15 years of experience as an entrepreneur, CFO, and COO, Susan shares the business strategies that lead to a business with comfortable margins—financial, emotional, energetic, and scheduling margins. Join her and her guests as they counter the prevailing “wisdom” about business growth, productivity, and success to provide a framework for making choices that align with your values and true goals. Episode by episode, you’ll get a look at the team management, operations, financials, product development, and marketing of a calmer business.
I have crafted systems around to help me cope. And, you know, sometimes people are like they are maybe in awe sometimes at some of the systems and, oh, I wish I was this organized. I'm like, you don't understand. If I was not this organized, this cart would go off the rails like it's pure chaos. Like, it really is.
Marie:You know, chaos is kind of my my default state.
Susan:Understanding the unique ways that your brain works can go a long way towards helping you be consistent. If you understand what works and what doesn't for you specifically, you can create systems and support structures to help you be more consistent. I'm Susan Boles, and you're listening to break the ceiling, the show where we break down unconventional strategies you can use to save time, boost your profit, and increase your capacity. So much of being able to be consistent has to do with the way you work and the systems you create to help you do that work consistently, which means that you have to figure out how you work best and where you particularly struggle. And that's different for everyone.
Susan:Now that idea runs counter to pretty much every productivity hack out there. Most common productivity advice centers on the idea of trying to do more work, to shove more into the day, to force yourself to change your behavior so you can do more. But what if you don't wanna do more? What if you just want to make it easier on yourself to do the work you love? Or what if your brain or energy levels just don't work the same way that the productivity bros who hawk the advice do?
Susan:Then a lot of that advice is really just downright useless. The real key is figuring out how your brain works and creating an environment that supports you doing your best work. And that's probably not forcing yourself to follow someone else's hacks, but experimenting and figuring out what works for you. Marie Poulin of Notion Mastery helps ambitious business owners level up their digital systems, workflow, and productivity so they can spend more time on what matters. She's been an influential voice in the Notion community.
Susan:She has a big following on her Notion YouTube channel and she's created a lot of the Notion resources that are available today. She also recently discovered that she has ADHD, so her brain works a little differently. And things like consistency or scripting things or executive functioning, like deciding what to prioritize working on can be extra challenging. It's one of the reasons she was drawn to Notion in the first place. She could build a completely customized project management system that worked the way her brain worked.
Susan:Marie and I talk about consistency and how critical it was to her success with Notion and her course and community Notion Mastery. But also, we talk about how discovering she was neurodivergent explained so much about how her brain worked and it's helped her figure out how to set up systems that work the way she does. Hey, Marie. Thanks for coming back to the show.
Marie:I'm excited.
Susan:The last time we were on, you were sort of the beginning of the you're the Notion person. Yeah. But since then, you have gone on to become, like, the name of Notion. Like, it's synonymous. It seems like you when you started, you were just everywhere all at once, but it actually it really hasn't been that long since you shifted your business to focus on Notion.
Susan:And you said you credited consistency as being one of the major reasons that you've succeeded. And I, I mean, I absolutely agree. Consistency is really important. But when you started down this whole YouTube Notion path, was consistency actually a focus or a priority for you when you started it? How did you approach, like, I'm gonna go be a YouTube star about Notion?
Susan:There definitely wasn't the plan.
Marie:I mean, being consistent in the beginning was part of the plan because I sort of felt like I could sense this energy emerging. I could see, you know, Notion was kind of exploding. There was this popularity just kind of building. And I sort of felt like, okay, this is going to explode. I'm on the cusp of something.
Marie:I started to see other people had some, you know, blogs about it and courses and some videos, but there still wasn't a ton. And I thought if I'm going to get known for this, I'm gonna have to really take it seriously. And so I committed to doing a YouTube video every week for 3 months, which is, I mean, it's a lot of work for sure. And I certainly wasn't comfortable with video at the time, but it was just the best way to share about notion. And the videos were getting so much traction so quickly, and the the followers on YouTube, it it happened so fast.
Marie:I thought, okay, it was an immediate feedback loop that, okay, this is gonna be the best way to get the information out. So, between that and then doing notions office hours every week, I basically had 2 different sources of content happening every week for about 3 to 4 months. And so if you look at my YouTube now, you'll see videos like maybe once every month or so. And so now I don't have the same cadence and the same output that I used to have. But in the beginning, I think it really, really mattered because it did feel like, oh, Marie's everywhere, and they just associated me with Notion.
Marie:So, right at the beginning when I was doing that, I think is kind of when it mattered most. And then in some ways it sort of bought me some credibility and then I was able to kind of take my foot off the gas a little bit.
Susan:So that's super interesting. And you when you were embarking video every week. That's my that's my commitment to myself, my commitment to this project, and I'm gonna do the video and the office hours. What was your biggest I guess, what were your biggest challenges actually doing that? You know, it's one thing to say, I'm gonna be consistent.
Susan:I'm gonna do this. And then, you know, like, a week goes by, 2 weeks go by, and you do it, and then, like, something comes up the 3rd week, and you're like, no. Maybe I won't.
Marie:Yeah. And I definitely feel that now. And I'm I've shared this before. Like, we can chat a little bit about the ADHD side of things where I can go through wild bursts of intense focus that can last for days, weeks, sometimes months at a time. And I sort of look back at that time in my life and I go, how on earth did I pull that off?
Marie:Because that is bananas. And I think part of it was that it was sort of the only thing I had going on. I knew I wanted to make a Notion course, probably July, August of 20 was it 2018 maybe? And did my first webinar about Notion in that August. And a few months later was when I launched the pilot of my course.
Marie:So I kind of knew if I was gonna sell a course about notion, I was, I needed to to build that credibility and get that lift. So I think there's sort of external motivating factors where I've I've promised people I'm gonna do this thing. They're depending on me. People are asking for it. Ah, there's an opportunity here.
Marie:So I think I'm I'm probably very driven by that sort of, I don't know, people pleasing or, you know, external expectations. That's a big part of it for me. I kinda know that about myself. If I, if I make a public promise, I'm much more likely to follow through on it. So there was, there was that.
Marie:And again, just week week, every time I was releasing a video, people were blown away. They were commenting. There was just so much engagement. It felt way easier. I had something to talk about and I was actually really excited.
Marie:You know, when you're really passionate about something, it it's obviously a lot easier. So in the beginning, I don't think it felt like a chore. It was sort of like, oh, okay. Like another video. Oh, I've been meaning share this.
Marie:And in, in some ways it was me sharing answers to things that people were already asking me for all the time. So I kind of had this endless stream of, of, you know, video ideas and that sort of thing. So that, that kinda kept me going for quite some time. And then I think at some point it sort of peers out and you're like, whew. Okay.
Marie:Now I gotta focus on course content. Right? So now if people are paying for this thing, I wanna make sure that I have enough behind the paywall, you know, that feels valuable and people aren't like, wait, can't I just, you know, look at all your YouTube videos. And so finding that balance, I think was very difficult because, you know, creating content is, is no joke, right? That's still, it takes a lot of, time, energy, and attention.
Marie:And so dividing that between my paid program and, and YouTube, it sort of meant I needed to shift gears a little bit and didn't need to be so heavy on all of the free public content and needed to focus more on the course. So that's, that's a little bit of that that journey, sort of consistent, really heavy for a short focus burst, and then sort of, whew. Okay. Now I need to to focus over here.
Susan:And how this is not necessarily related to consistency, but how did you break down what goes public, what goes in the course, and how do you balance creating content for I mean, it's essentially 2 channels that are talking about very similar things and very similar content. How did how do you think about dividing the 2 and balancing both the workloads?
Marie:I think this is something I'm probably still working on. I haven't figured out necessarily the answer to that, but I can I can share some of the observations in that? I think in a in YouTube, people's attention span is so, so, so short, and you have to get right to the point and get really specific. And I think in some ways that was really tricky because people would be like, get to the point, you know, but then other people would be like, wait, slow down. You didn't go into X, Y, Z.
Marie:And I was like, oh, wow. It was really interesting to kind of try to figure out how much information to give, how fast to go again. People's attention span is very different when they're paying for a course, they're sort of invested in a way and they're willing to spend a little bit more time. And so in some ways, the YouTube is a bit more, teasing the possibilities while showcasing something really specific, like tutorial style. Hey.
Marie:Here's how to do this one really simple thing in notion. Whereas the course is, is much more immersive. It's a longer, a longer term experience, if you will. It's touching upon all of the habit creation and personal growth and other parts that happen as a result of integrating notion into different parts of your life in business. So it's more immersive.
Marie:A a little deeper, we get a lot more into the personal development and growth side of things, if that makes sense.
Susan:Yeah. Totally. And do you so now that you have both channels, so at the beginning, you did really focus on YouTube, and then you really focused on course content. And now they're both, as far as I hear, pretty well established.
Marie:Mhmm.
Susan:How do you balance creating content now that there's 2 channels and they're mostly there?
Marie:Oh, it's so hard. It's really hard to keep up with with YouTube now because my my excitement and my focus, it's like I really wanna serve the people who have already committed and and paid for the course and are immersed in that and are part of the community. So what I like to do is make sure that if I'm sort of teasing out a concept, I like to test that out with the community first. So they always kinda get first access to things I'm thinking about and, you know, hey, I'm experimenting with this new way of doing something in Notion. Check it out.
Marie:And so there's sort of like this inner inner circle, and I get to co create that with people in the course. And then I can say, oh, great. Now that we figured out a way to do this, I can show one small part of that on YouTube. But I'm I'm less I don't say less worried now about YouTube, but it's sort of if I can get one video out a month, I'm happy. Obviously, more would be ideal.
Marie:Like, if I could be shipping a weekly video, that would be awesome. But in some ways, I feel like the traction that I've built up and the sort of SEO juice and reputation and all that, a lot of those videos that are still, you know, 2 years old. And I know you know this from your podcast too. Right? It's like the 2 year old videos that you're like, what?
Marie:I did that one thing, and now suddenly that's how everybody knows me. And then they watch that video and they purchase the course. So I still have videos like that that have been around forever that still are really highly converting. And so in some ways, as long as you have that pillar content out there, that becomes an engine that can kinda keep serving you over and over again. So, you know, again, I still haven't figured out all the answers.
Marie:I would love to be able to ship a video, at a more weekly cadence, and maybe part of that is going even smaller, like really, really tiny tips and tricks and that sort of thing because video editing takes time. You know, all all of that stuff takes time. So I'm still figuring out kinda how to balance that, but I'm also in the midst of a curriculum redesign right now. So my focus is just a 100% on how can I make the paid program the most epic version of this there can possibly be? And so I'll work in some ways, you know, you put marketing on hold a little bit.
Marie:It's, the content creation for your paid programs becomes priority. So it it's always a a balancing act. Right? When sometimes you're you're in launch mode, other times you're in ideation mode, creation mode, kinda wavering between the 2. So it's it's like a teeter totter.
Marie:There's always a bit of give and take.
Susan:Yeah. I've noticed similar since my course launched. It was very much I focus on the content creation, then you focus on the marketing, then you go back and do curriculum updates and then
Marie:back on the marketing side. So, yeah,
Susan:I I feel that I'm so, yeah, I I feel
Marie:that. You know the deal.
Susan:Well and, you know, as soon as I finish something, I'm like, oh oh oh, I could make this better. I'll have to be like, nope. Just put it on the list for next time. It's okay.
Marie:Good enough for now. You know? Yeah.
Susan:You don't have to fix it right now.
Marie:It's okay. Exactly.
Susan:So were there any downsides
Marie:was was doubling down on it. I sort of saw it as an experiment, a chapter. I'm like, let's see what happens. Because I've been a generalist for so, so long. Like I just have handled so many different parts of a project and I didn't really have a singular positioning or focus.
Marie:And so doubling down on Notion was kind of the first time I thought, what if, what if I were to get known for this really one specific thing? So it was a total experiment, and the growth was explosive. And I was like, well, feed a starving crowd. Right? It's it, it makes things so much easier when people know how to find you because what you do is so specific.
Marie:So I would say it was, a really smart move for me, to, to do that doubling down and just being really consistent for a very, very focused burst. I can't, I can't say I can think of any downsides other than it, it does take up a lot of your time. Of course, it's a, it's a commitment. And, but it was definitely worth it. I'd say.
Susan:I'm curious how you prioritized making that time. So in order to be consistent, in order to be really hyper focused on something, you have to balance other things.
Marie:Mhmm. And
Susan:at this point, you had a software. You had your consulting. You had other stuff going on. How did you think through, you know, what are you gonna give up? What are you gonna prioritize?
Susan:How are you gonna balance all of these things?
Marie:Yeah. I mean, as you said, you you do have to make sacrifices, and you have to ask yourself, like, what do you want in the long term? And I knew that I wanted to develop a course about Notion. I've made courses before, and I know they're they're not a small thing. Even a small course.
Marie:It takes a lot out of you, right? To not just create the content, but to market it, to talk about it. There's just a lot of moving parts with an online course. So a few things. I think one was hiring my, assistant executive assistant, who is now my director of ops.
Marie:So she's become my first full time employee. And so I brought her on shortly before the course launched as a in a sort of light capacity, kinda started to delegate a few tasks. And then I started letting go of clients. I actually started saying, well, what if the only work that I did for the next 6, 12 months was only notion related consulting. So I pretty much let go of almost everyone that wasn't a really, really well established long term client, and and just started kind of referring out and saying, hey, you know, I'm my business is the business focus is changing a bit, and I won't be able to serve you in the same way.
Marie:Here's someone that might be able to help you. And I just heard to refer out old clients, saying ruthless, you know, being ruthless about saying no to anything that was not aligned with that for that short amount of time. And, around the same time too, my husband got a full time job. So we actually took a step back from the software too, and and he kind of went off and did his own thing. So we knew that we had really stable income.
Marie:I knew that I could, kind of get away with letting go of some of those client projects. And I knew I had a little bit of runway to work with, and I thought I'm just gonna make the most out of this runway. So yeah. Ruthless prioritization. Really asking yourself what it is that you want long term.
Marie:And I I really, really wanted to create this course and do a really great job of it. So it was, it was definitely the majority of my focus for those months. And I was just so excited about it. I think, the beginning of projects is very, very exciting and motivating for me. So I had no problem just like, throwing myself in there entirely.
Susan:So I am curious because I am the same way. So I love the beginning of projects. I will throw myself wholeheartedly in. And somewhere around the middle and especially, like, the last start of the to the finish. Like, the start of the the finish in the middle are really difficult.
Susan:How how did that play out for you? And what what did you do?
Marie:Yes. This is it's very relatable. It's so easy to start. It's so easy to, putter along, and it's that final it's like the, what, last 20% of a project that takes 80% of the time. Right?
Marie:It's, limping to the finish line. So, again, part of it is hiring a little bit of that help and that accountability. I do feel like the course for me, it took a long time for it to feel complete. So I launched it in beta. It was a pilot program.
Marie:Everyone that that initially joined the course was sort of a cocreator. And, you know, through their questions in the live calls, I would be revamping the material, and it just sort of felt like I was revamping the material all the time. And it sort of felt like, oh my gosh. Does this is this project, you know, gonna never end? So I'd say it took a good 6 months between starting the course and actually feeling like, okay, I can call this kind of complete.
Marie:And then I'd say it still took many, many months after that. And just, the more people that went through the course and the more I would see the gaps and I would see the potential. And I was like, okay. A part of me was like, well, what if what if actually it's okay that this course doesn't really complete? And that might sound kind of insane, but I was like, if one of my strengths is the iteration and the improvement process, and I do always kind of see those opportunities and I wanna keep making it better.
Marie:What if that's just part of the way the course grows? How could I put the foundational elements in place and kinda lock that down and be like, that's complete. But then the rest of the course could be more of a resource library that could grow over time, and I can when I'm feeling energetic and when I feel like there there's an opportunity, I can go and rerecord those videos. So in some ways, I kinda gave myself permission to be like, it's okay. You can keep working on this thing.
Marie:It's gonna keep getting better over time, but make sure at least the beginning fundamentals are locked down and and complete. But having my assistant, Georgia, to kind of, Amory, we're, like, missing a video here, or this needs to be complete and kinda, you know, get on my back a little bit about that was was very helpful.
Susan:Yep. Maybe maybe I need a Georgia.
Marie:Everyone needs a a Georgia. But I will say that is definitely something I I still struggle with for sure is is it's always the finish of a project that is really, really difficult. So, I I feel like I have to find ways to to trick myself and motivate myself into just getting it done.
Susan:Yeah. I I also struggle with the finish. I am great with designing the thing. I'm great with the ideation. That part is, like, super easy.
Susan:Like, it just flows. And then, yeah, towards the end,
Marie:you're just Gotta hire hire the finishers. Right? Hire the people who know how to help you.
Susan:Yeah. I still gotta do that. I don't not in the mood for that. Let's just push that off. Mhmm.
Susan:So you recently discovered that you have ADHD. How has that changed how you approach consistency, how you think about consistency? Has it has it explained or changed the way you thought about anything?
Marie:Oh, man. It's yeah. Part of me was like, how did I not see this sooner? Like, it seems so obvious in hindsight, but in in some ways, I feel like even I maybe contributed to some of the stigma because I was like, oh, come on. That's all of us.
Marie:We all have the it was like I resonated so hard with everything, all of the memes and all of the hilarious jokes and descriptions. And I was like, yeah. Yeah. But come on. Like, that's all of us.
Marie:And at some point I was like, wait a second. Maybe maybe it resonates so hard because that's me. Like, and it really, it really shook me. I was, I was quite surprised in a way, because my sister has ADHD too, and she is, you know, what I would call maybe the poster child of what you think of when you think of ADHD, of that sort of completely hyperactive, extreme extroversion, inability to kinda, motivate yourself to follow through. And I know she has really struggled over the years with school and, you know, I was I I fast tracked through through high school and, you know, did university and stuff.
Marie:So I thought, well, there's no way. Like, obviously I've been, like, self directed and running my own business and all this stuff. But the more I I learned about it and the more I uncovered, I started to be like, oh my gosh, that explains so much. And it explains some of the exhaustion, I think, around maybe even hiding some of those parts that we're really not, not proud of, or, you know, that sometimes it takes, it takes a client being like, Hey, just checking in before I'm like, oh right. Oh my gosh.
Marie:I should follow-up with that client. Right. There were, there were things that I, I think I have crafted systems around to help me cope. And, you know, crafted systems around to help me cope. And, you know, sometimes people are like, they are maybe in awe sometimes at some of the systems and, oh, I wish I was this organized.
Marie:I'm like, you don't understand. If I was not this organized, this cart would go off the rails. Like, it's pure chaos. Like, it really is, you know, chaos is kind of my my default state. And so I think I've had to almost I found these ways of tricking my brain, but I didn't realize that in a way it was, it was coping with the way that my brain works and even being self employed.
Marie:Like I didn't really realize I've I've kind of joked about being unemployable and, you know, get getting to work on time has been a problem my entire life. Like, I don't know if I've ever made it to work on time and and that's, it's kind of an embarrassing thing to think about. Right? Or it's, I'm not proud of that, but getting up in the morning and funny enough, I was watching a video about, you know, what is ADHD and, and how does it often get kind of missed in women? And, and that was actually the first thing that kind of triggered it was extreme difficulty getting up in the morning.
Marie:And I was like, what? Okay. Like this has been an issue. I used to have 3 alarm clocks in my, in my bedroom when I was in high school and I would still be, like, running down the street, like, trying to make the bus on time. And it I was it was chaos.
Marie:And so I was like, is that that's a symptom? And I started doing a little bit of research and just all sorts of funny little quirks that I thought were quirks. And I was like, oh, wow. It would explain a lot of these behaviors. It would explain, even in calls.
Marie:Often when I'm in a call with someone and my brain is going like a 1000000 miles an hour and I'm like interrupting thoughts with other thoughts. And, so these things that I just kind of thought were quirks or things that I was maybe embarrassed about, I thought, oh, there's there might actually be a reason, and my brain might might actually work a different way. And it I think it's what has led me to be really great at strategic work and ideation and, all this, you know, creative projects and why I can have these really, really intense hyperfocus bursts of energy, but followed by, well, I just alright. Well, Marie doesn't wanna do that, so she's not gonna do that. House, you know, even my house being in a state of complete disarray, but then my my business is always humming along.
Marie:Right? It's like, how can I run a a successful business and, work with these these big name clients and stuff, but but my house is in a in complete chaos? So it's been an interesting process to uncover what are the things about this that have actually helped me succeed and where are the parts that I've struggled with and maybe have, have hidden even from myself or maybe that I denied or, or was embarrassed about, or, or maybe, spent a lot of energy masking. And it was very permission giving to go, oh, what if that's just how my brain works? And now I can find ways to work with it and stop judging myself so harshly about that stuff.
Marie:So it was quite a, a process of highs and lows and compassion for myself. And then also just being like, how the f did I miss this? Like, 37, 38. I'm like, how how on earth did I miss this information? So
Susan:I think that's really interesting, and I love the idea of just accepting that that is how your brain works and then using systems, using tools to work with your brain instead of trying to force your brain into somebody else's box of how they think things are supposed to work or even, like, your own idea of how things are supposed to work. Can you talk a little bit about some of the tools or systems that you've put in place that have made a significant difference to you being able to run a successful business and be, seemingly from the outside, very organized. It may not be that way behind the scenes. That's fine. But from the outside, it looks very organized and lovely.
Marie:Yeah. I mean, there there is lots of pieces that are organized, and I think there's also, you know, parts that might feel a bit chaotic. And again, part of that has been having a team that can fill some of those gaps and and even like a team that understands how I work and and can be supportive in that way. You know, I often feel very chaotic when I'm when I'm talking or or let's say I'm I'm in a strategy session with with team members, and I can see, you know, Georgia is, like, very quiet and taking notes, and I'm just doing my thing and brain dumping and being chaotic. And then toward the end, she can be like, so as next steps, what I'm seeing is a, b, and c.
Marie:And I'm like, yes. That's brilliant. And and just someone who can kind of translate a little bit of that creative energy into really practical next steps has been incredible. So, you know, again, having an assistant whose brain works very different than mine, much more linear, logical, maybe slower and, and sort of, I wanna say more intentional, but it's just, it's a little bit of a different energy. That's been huge.
Marie:Time blocking huge. Like it's like I have to force myself into these little containers to contain the chaos. And so, theming my days, time blocking, giving myself those containers wherever possible, embracing the hyperfocus while also even my husband and I like we'll get into those wild bursts of focus where it's like, I'm in the zone. Don't bother me. Please make me dinner.
Marie:You know, making sure you've got your, your support network in place is, is huge. And, and just, I mean, another, another thing I'll add is I work on weekends and I actually love working on weekends because it is quiet. Nobody is bothering me. I can get a burst of work done and then I'm like, go out and play in the garden and then come back and do some more work. And, and I think I used to carry a lot of, shame and judgment around that of like, oh, recovering workaholic and this sort of thing.
Marie:And, and so actually the ADHD thing helped me understand, oh, my brain is just never, it just never stops. Like I'm just always thinking of like possibilities and connections are forming and I just get so fired up. And for me, it's actually rejuvenating and it's exciting to be taking a course on the on the weekend or, working on a YouTube video. And so I, I kind of gave myself a bit of permission to say, work how you best work. And if you notice that you're, you're kind of in the zone of feeling really inspired, harness that, listen to it, take advantage of it.
Marie:And so sometimes I'll have to interrupt my husband and be like, hold on. Like, I'm in the zone. You know, I'm I'm feeling really creative right now. Can we table this discussion? Because I just I need to to work on this thing.
Marie:I need to get writing done, whatever it is. So part of it is just listening to my brain, listening to my body, knowing what I need and forgetting some of those shoulds. And I just, I don't work in a 9 to 5 environment or or schedule, and that's okay. And my team knows that. And so, again, just finding ways to work with your your Another one is, you know, how you hear people say, you know, eat the frog and do the most difficult thing in the morning, right?
Marie:And you hear these sorts of productivity, best practices and advice, and, and then you feel ashamed because you're like, well, why, why does this not
Susan:work for
Marie:me? And that difficulty getting up in the morning, it takes my brain at least 2 hours to actually wake up and do anything productive. So realizing nothing effective is gonna happen before 10:11 am, for sure. So I book meetings in the mornings because, my brain is still waking up, but in terms of writing or creative work or anything like that, that has to happen like 3, 4 pm. And, you know, you can, you can say like, oh, the early bird gets the worm, but I'm sorry.
Marie:My brain is not active at that time. And so honestly, a lot of it's just been letting go of a lot of the traditional productivity advice and asking, what do I know is true Like I track my daily effectiveness, happiness, feelings when I'm in flow. I've been tracking my flow for years, and so I can actually look back at the data from my journal and say, oh, wow. Wednesdays are actually the most effective day of the week, and I'm most in flow. That's really interesting.
Marie:And I can use that data to help me make better decisions about my day. So where some people are like, oh, wow, you're so organized. I'm like, you don't understand. I have to be because otherwise it's chaos.
Susan:Yeah. That's so interesting. And I love the idea of just tracking your data and your energy and data to schedule. And I did something very similar with I'm completely the opposite of you. So I have to if I don't write it first thing in the morning, it ain't happening that day.
Susan:Like, I have to do I have to do admin and email stuff in the afternoon because if I get into it and I haven't done the thing that I am supposed to like, the thing that requires focus, like, if I have to write an intro for a podcast or whatever that has to happen first thing or is just, like, my brain is mush by, like, 2 o'clock in the afternoon. But it took me a really long time of, like, tracking to figure out, like, okay. Cool. If it doesn't happen before lunch, it ain't happening. So how can I schedule my days and schedule plan out how my work works so that I can work the best way for me and how my energy levels and my brain works?
Susan:And I love that you've done something similar and that it is completely the opposite.
Marie:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's you can read all the productivity advice, but at the end of the day, nobody knows your circumstances, your brain, your energy better than than you do. So I I like to pay attention to that and be like, what are the trends?
Marie:What are some things I can see that work? Where do I notice resistance? And how can I basically design resistance out of my schedule or or at least to minimize it as much as possible knowing I might have maybe less, I don't know, motivation or willpower or whatever to work with? And so how do I work with that?
Susan:Yes. I love this idea of paying attention to where there's resistance and trying to understand why there's resistance. You know? Is it something because, I don't feel like I know how to do this task? I don't it's just something I don't wanna do.
Susan:I'm never gonna wanna do it. Find somebody you have somebody on your team who does wanna do those things and hand them off and being able to really, look at how you work as an experiment that, at least for me, is kind of constantly evolving. You know, I'll try something and go, that didn't work. So, like, I guess 2019, I tried doing, like, I would schedule a break week. Like, so once a month, there was a break week where I didn't have any meetings.
Susan:I didn't have anything. Like, I was trying to really focus on recovery for burnout. So I was like, I need a lot of like, I need time off. And the first, like, 2 or 3 times, I would go around my own boundaries and schedule stuff, and I would get to my break week and I'd be like, I don't I have to work the whole week. How did that happen?
Marie:Oh, I've definitely been there. Like,
Susan:that wasn't supposed to happen. How did that happen? And then going back and realizing that it was me. Like, I was the one that was doing that, where I was like, oh, you know, this is somebody that I like talking to. We'll just schedule a meeting.
Susan:It'll
Marie:be fun. Special exceptions. Mhmm.
Susan:Like, I special exceptions my way out of a break week, and it took me probably 3 or 4 months before I was like, oh, okay. Cool. My boundaries are my boundaries. It's totally okay if they if I schedule them for the next week. There's plenty of time.
Susan:It's not urgent. But it did. It took me like it probably took me 4 months before I actually, like, figured out what was going on. And it was just an experiment of, does this work? Nope.
Susan:That doesn't work. Why doesn't that work? Okay. Let's try something else.
Marie:I love that you said, yeah, it took you 3 to 4 months, and I'm laughing because literally last week, I had 7 or 8 calls, and it was meant to be my week off. And I was like, how did this happen? How did this happen? Yeah.
Susan:Whoops. Yeah. Oh, like and so I've been doing that for a year and I still probably like, 1 or 2 meetings that week still usually Sneak in. Something that I'm, like, super excited about, so I don't wanna wait. Totally.
Marie:I know. Yeah. It's hard. It's like I'm excited about everything. Like, oh, god.
Marie:How do I how do I contain this?
Susan:I am curious. So you mentioned, about the hyperfocus, and I'm wondering if after super super hyper focused on something and I can go for a couple of weeks probably, and then I'll get to a point where I'm just, like, I it's it's used up. I used everything up. I don't know what to do. How do you deal with those?
Susan:Do you plan for them? Because they can be kind of unpredictable. You never quite know when your energy is just gonna be like, and we're done.
Marie:100%. It's like so it's so relatable because, like I said, with the the beginning of the YouTube stuff, it felt like months when I look back, I'm like, wow. From September to December, that was a wild burst of focused. Like, how the heck did I do that and how do I channel that? And sometimes I'm like, does every year just kinda get like 3, 4 months where it's like go time?
Marie:And I'm I'm trying to notice those patterns at a bigger level. But like you said, you don't know sometimes. Is this just like a week of inspired creativity? Is it is it gonna happen for months? And you often don't really know, and it can be hard to hard to predict.
Marie:So I don't necessarily, you know, know what the answer is, but but I am just kinda watching, paying attention, noticing. And and like you said, knowing that often, if I do have a week of intense, intense hyperfocus, I am gonna be more gentle on myself the following week because I do definitely have those crashes where you kinda feel useless. And I think the hardest part is that self compassion and not beating myself up the next week where it's like, oh, I feel like I should be doing this or should be doing that. I'm like, calm down. You were really, really, you know, did superhuman tasks the last week and cramming, like, 3 weeks worth of work into 1 week.
Marie:You can calm down and and kinda take this week a little bit chill. But it is very difficult, difficult not to kind of beat yourself up a little bit. So I'm learning I'm trying to, you know, be a little bit more compassionate with myself. I'm curious if those
Susan:either the lows or the productivity, how how do you find that that works with having, like, a a course, a community where there is sort of an expectation that somebody's gonna show up regularly, like, that there will be content of some sort at some point, and that may or may not line up with you feeling like working.
Marie:I think what's what's cool, at least what I I really appreciate about the format of the course is it's fairly set it and forget it. So in some ways, as long as I'm doing the bare minimum that week, which would be, you know, logging into circle and checking if there's any messages. And and even then there's lots of other people that are answering questions in the forum. It's not just me. So that's that's one piece is, you know, log in.
Marie:At least say hello to any new people that have joined. Check-in if there's anything that needs me. So, like, that feels pretty shallow work. Like, it's pretty easy to do. And then I do live office hours once every 2 weeks.
Marie:So, and I find those incredibly energizing. Like, I'm usually difficult because and, again, this this comes back to what gives you energy, and how do you best show up? And I know I am actually at my best when it's unscripted and it's unplanned. So in office hours, it is so easy because I'm like, oh, I get to connect with people, answer their questions, problem solve, troubleshoot, like, woo hoo. Like, that just gets my brain fired up, and it's so easy.
Marie:So that's actually likely to give me energy on an off week, but planning curriculum and scripting a video, anything that requires that preplanning and, like, planning out what I'm gonna say and making sure that I'm covering all the key points, like, that feels like a whole different energy, and it takes a lot out of me. And that's another reason why I have assistance with that. So I hired a learning advocate. I'm working with a curriculum developer. So people who can give me the structure so that I know what videos to make, and I can be a little bit more impulsive.
Marie:But that's, that's something that I've learned about myself is, you know, even adding events like hot seats where someone can pre submit, Hey, I'm trying to solve this one thing in my workspace. How would I approach this? And then we hop on live, and it's basically like a live 1 hour coaching session that other people can drop in on and watch if they want to. But being on the spot, weirdly enough, like years ago, I would never have thought this would be the case, but being on the spot and being kind of impulsive and at the ready is actually so easy and so energizing. So I don't actually feel like even if I had a week where I felt kind of drained, that part of, of sort of my responsibilities
Susan:things that energize you, that the, like, the minimum requirements of keeping what you're doing alive are things that bring you energy, things that are easy. Because I think, so often, we feel like things that are easy are less valuable. That's true. Yeah. Like, this weird switch in our brain.
Susan:Then we're like, oh, this is something that is super easy for me. So people might not find it valuable when, in fact, those are the things that people usually find most valuable or the things that are easy for you. But sometimes that feels not not okay.
Marie:Well, Well, I I think that's it's become kind of baked into the values with the team too. And, again, I think a lot of this is the result of ADHD, but I didn't realize it's it is very, very difficult for me to summon up the wherewithal if I am not super, super stoked about the thing, the task that I need to do. And so for everyone on the team, I wanna make sure is everybody doing what they are so freaking excited about that they can't believe they get paid to do that. That is my desire for everybody on the team, that they're doing the stuff that is fun, that nobody feels like they're sort of, dragging their feet, like, oh, I have to do this, because that's kinda how I operate. And so in many ways, I I think it's an exciting place for for people to work too because they're like, woah.
Marie:Like, I get paid to do this. This is so fun. And that's the vibe that I want everybody to be super aligned with your talents, super aligned with your strengths. I don't know if you've if you've done, like, you know, those personality tests. We've done principles you is a really fun one.
Marie:Myers Briggs, Enneagram. So we've gotten different team members to kind of fill out those things, strengths finder. And we've mapped them out together too, so you can sort of see, oh, wow. We can see who are the detailed and reliable folks and who are the creative conceptual folks. And,
Susan:Oh, I love that.
Marie:It's been really fun. Like, I've been told I have an uncanny ability to, kind of bring people in based on an intuitive sense of of kind of where their skill set fits in. So that's been really interesting to just notice. Oh, wow. We we kinda cover, like, a really interesting range of skills.
Marie:And then even something as simple as, like, I I don't think I'm necessarily the most skilled instructor, but I I think I have a knack for some of the more like coaching or or maybe more facilitation. But then we have other people that are, they're really strong on instruction and that sort of thing. So how can we make sure that we design events so that the instructors get to instruct and the coaches get to coach? And what does that look like and how do we kinda, you know, fill the calendar with these different types of events that draw people in in different ways? And and that's been really fun.
Susan:I love that. So as we wrap up, is there anything you think we should talk about or touch on that we haven't yet?
Marie:You know, I think we we, I think we judge ourselves really harshly, and especially when life happens, we sort of think, we need to be everywhere all the time. And, you know, in some ways, I'm I'm consistent about showing up. It just looks very different from season to season or week to week or month to month. Sometimes I'll spend a month where I'll actually get a newsletter out every week for 1 month and then not for another month. But I'm also on Twitter really actively.
Marie:So in, in some ways, I'm consistently always online. It's just not always with the same formats all the time. And so, it hasn't stopped me from being able to grow a really successful business. And so I would just kind of encourage I do this one thing all the time every week. It can look a little bit different.
Marie:And I do this one thing all the time every week. It can look a little bit different. And so I think giving ourself permission to approach things in seasons and Awesome.
Susan:So where can up on.
Marie:Awesome.
Susan:So where can our listeners find you if they wanna connect or learn more about what you do?
Marie:Yeah. You can find me online, mariepoulan.com. And if you're curious on the Notion side of things, notion mastery.com, and pretty active on Twitter or Instagram. You can usually find me at my handle at mariepoulin.
Susan:Sometimes the challenges to consistency come from self sabotage, things like getting distracted by shiny objects or getting bored or imposter syndrome rearing its ugly head right at the point where you're getting ready to launch the thing. But especially for folks who are neurodivergent or dealing with chronic health issues or disabilities, consistency comes with additional challenges that require you to figure out how to manage unpredictable energy levels or how to cope with executive function issues. Regardless of your specific challenges with consistency, the key to becoming more consistent is figuring out what you struggle with and then experimenting to figure out what works for you. For Marie, she tracked her energy and focused and figured out that Wednesdays are really productive for her. And that she had to work on hard things in the afternoon or whenever the inspiration struck, even if that happened to be a weekend.
Susan:For me, I realized that I needed really big stretches of break time and then I needed to work on hard things in the morning. We both came to those systems by trying new things, seeing what worked and what didn't, and then modifying as we went. So does time blocking help you or do you feel constrained or trapped by it? Do you work best in the morning or in the evening? Are there certain days of the week or weeks of the month where you just don't have the energy to work?
Susan:A lot of figuring out what works for you is just trying to notice and collect some data that you can use to try new techniques and new tools. Ashley Gartland realized she needed more breaks, so she started planning her work to allow her to take 1 week off per month. Tara McMullen noticed that she gets a big energy slump in the fall when the time changes, so she plans a few weeks off from work at that point in time. Brittney Berger created an energy tracker to help her notice when she has the energy to work or when she has big slumps so that she could plan her work for when she has the most chance of having the energy to do the work. That energy tracker is fantastic, by the way, and I've included a link to it in the show notes.
Susan:Each one of these folks shared their with me and these were ones that kind of sounded helpful for me. I experimented with and eventually have implemented all of these. I'm continually experimenting with and creating systems to support me and to help me be more consistent. And a lot of that just comes from trying things and noticing what's working and what doesn't. It's all about figuring out what works and doesn't work for you.
Susan:If you liked this episode, I'd really appreciate it if you shared with someone you think would enjoy it and would benefit from it. Break the Ceiling is produced by Yellow House Media. Our executive producer is Sean McMullen. Our production coordinator is Lou Blazer.