Running as a low barrier to entry. All you need is shoes & you are out the door! But with running shoes being the only requirement, are you taking full advantage? Today I talk with Matt Klein from Doctors of Running & we discuss how we can use your shoes as a TOOL to overcome injuries like: Patellofemoral pain ITB friction syndrome Shin splints Calf strains Achilles tendinopathy Matt has a very unique set of skills which is perfect for this topic. He has the benefit of sampling & reviewing tonnes of different shoes along with being fluent in the most up-to-date running evidence literature. You will love this podcast episode! Here are the links for Doctors of running: Website:https://www.doctorsofrunning.com/ Youtube:https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCpUtRsyAx5rluUDmF4k_gHw Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/doctorsofrunning/?hl=en Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/kleinrunsDPT/?ref=bookmarks If you would like to support the podcast and participate in future Q&As sign up for $5US per month at https://www.patreon.com/therunsmarterpodcast To learn more about the Run Smarter Online Course, including FREE preview head to https://courses.runsmarter.online/collections To follow the podcast join the facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/833137020455347/?ref=group_header To find Brodie on instagram head to: https://www.instagram.com/brodie.sharpe/ To work with Brodie Sharpe at The Running Breakthrough Clinic visit: https://breakthroughrunning.physio/
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On today's episode, shoes as tools to overcome injury with Matt Klein. Welcome to the Run Smarter podcast. The podcast helping you overcome your current and future running injuries by educating and transforming you into a healthier, stronger and smarter runner. My name is Brodie Sharp. I am the guy to reach out to when you finally decided enough is enough with your persistent running injuries. I'm a physiotherapist, the owner of the Breakthrough Running Clinic and your podcast host. I'm excited to bring you today's lesson and to add to your ever-growing running knowledge. Let's work together to overcome your running injuries, getting you to that starting line and finishing strong. So let's take it away. Let's get started. I first heard of Matt Klein on another podcast and he was discussing his website and what he does and it sounded phenomenal so I reached out to him to get him to come on. He is the, oh he has the website, Doctors of Running and he pretty much reviews shoes and delves into a lot of research around what shoes can tell us and what type of shoes are linked to certain types of injuries or performance. And he is a wealth of knowledge. He has access to try out so many different types of shoes and the, which isn't really in my wheelhouse. So it was an honor to have Matt on to share his expertise. He discusses his other handles and other social media platforms at the end really recommend that you follow his stuff if you're interested in different types of shoes. This is an interesting topic because we all wear shoes when we go running except for those odd ones that go in bare feet, so it's good that we understand the benefits shoes can have and the detrimental qualities shoes can have and based on your individual circumstances and your individual part of your journey, we can use these SHU characteristics to our advantage. It was probably a month or so ago now when I was explaining about my tendinopathy that I've overcome. The response has been great for that. But throughout that journey, one of the things that I did was I started as I started building up my mileage, my calves were getting quite sore and that's because I mainly am a four foot runner and so naturally my calves, feet, Achilles undergo a little bit more load compared to my knees, hips, that sort of thing. And yeah, they were just getting doms, just getting a bit sore. So decided to purchase a shoe that had a higher heel drop and were still quite light. And yeah, just... I wanted. I knew what sort of characteristics I wanted it to have and got a shoe and it was making all the difference and helping my recovery. So This is similar to the topic that we explored today. We go through certain types of injuries. We go through patellofemoral pain, shin splints, ITB, like calf strains, achilles, that sort of thing. And yeah, what sort of shoe characteristics can help. And there's some really, really nice takeaways that Matt has been kind enough to share. before we move on. Those who have been paying attention to the past episodes know that I'm running a contest and the winner gets a unlimited access, free access to the Run Smarter Online course. If you haven't been paying attention, those who submit a post or something on social media to help bring... bring more awareness to the podcast. They have posted their favorite episode or what they've learned about the podcast or how it's helped their running. And yeah, I'm going to announce that today. So there have been five people that have entered the contest and I've got all their names written down. And on my computer here, I have a random number generator. So let me just hit that now. Number two. Laura Silva is our winner. So I'll reach out to you and let you know that you have become the winner. Congratulations. All it takes is just a quick sign up and then you get access to all that information, unlimited, so congratulations. I will be doing contests like this further down the track and just to help grow the podcast, but to help you learn and help you get some nice rewards in the process. So love creating these win-win scenarios. All right. Let's move on to our interview with Matt Klein. Well, first of all, Brody, thank you so much for having me on. I'm a huge fan of the podcast. So my name is Matthew Klein. I am a physical therapist from the United States. I started the website Doctors are Running. Previously, Klein runs DPT. A long time ago, actually in the middle of PT school as a way to dive into footwear, because I love running shoes, I love running. And I always had the questions in my mind of what am I putting on my feet and how is it affecting my body? I was very fortunate in Portland, Oregon, where I grew up, to grew up with a bunch of experts in the footwear realm at FitRight Northwest and Foot Traffic. Had a bunch of contacts in the foot world from Nike, Adidas, Sockney, who were able to mentor me and kind of looking at shoes as much more than just something I put on my feet, but wondering what happens to my body when you do put them on your feet. So this evolved partially inspired me to become a physical therapist. The other part was I was a frequently injured runner and I wanted to figure out how could I keep myself healthy. And this profession has been wonderful for helping me do that. And so as a physical therapist, that's been my journey to help not only keep help people get healthy and get back to their health, but also educate them on what their body is, how they can better take care of it. And shoes is just an extension of that, because often we don't think about what we're putting on our feet. We had a conversation just a second ago with a lot of lot of runners will kind of stick to one brand or one shoe their entire life and not really think about like, Hey, what, how might this be contributing to either enhanced performance or potential injuries or issues you might be having. So it's good just to think about what's what you're putting on your feet. So my expertise in the four realm has come from testing and writing for doctors of running. I've been involved in research in the past back in college. So I had some very good mentors that kind of got me interested in this. even in college. And then currently I'm a PhD student at Azusa Pacific University, where I'm just beginning to do my initial testing for a couple studies. And it's primarily looking at how some of these new carbon fiber plated shoes and these max cushion shoes, how they affect the lower body in terms of movement, impact forces and things like that. So it's, I'm inspired by many of those who came before me both to do the PhD and this knowledge. And it's been just a lot of experience, a lot of fun. to get to know a lot of people in the world realm. So through doctors are running, we have contacts throughout the running world who are nice enough to talk with us and send us stuff to test it. We get to hear all kinds of stuff and what they're doing. And yeah, it's been a really cool journey thus far that's really only beginning. Yeah, I have my hands in many different areas. I can't think of a better person to delve into this topic and yeah, like fascination as a runner, like fascinated by shoes and how you can use it to affect your body. then having the background like delving into research, being very research heavy and then having the amount of contacts that you have. And I thought I'd call this episode, um, shoes as tools to overcome injury because, and I'll, I'll kind of put a bit of a question mark, I think on that, uh, because we're sort of delving into, is there an answer or is there a solution? But having the concept of using your shoes as a tool, you can have it to potentially manipulate certain things, maybe to increase your performance, maybe to help an injury per se, maybe to help avoid a certain type of injury. So I'm really excited to delve into this and what you think. And I had this idea, we're going to go through some injury specific topics and rather than discuss okay, this is patellofemoral pain and discussing the causes and the etiology other treatments. I want the audience to go back to those specific injuries. So I have these written down. If you want to know more about the patellofemoral pain, there's, you can go back to episode 29 when I discuss with the hosts from That's Running podcast. I talk about shin splints on episode 46. I talk about ITB syndrome episode 40. We're going to delve a little bit into calf strains and Achilles sort of stuff, which I haven't done an episode on, which I think I will very soon. But plantar fasciitis, if you want to go back to episode 30 and 31 to just like sort of delve into a little bit more of what causes plantar fasciitis and general recovery for that. But also most recently, my talk with JF, we talked about shoe selection for plantar fasciitis. So we might avoid that condition today. And delve into these like we'll just talk about the shoes for now. And I think I should also mention is shoes aren't the only answer. There's going to be, we're going to talk about the shoe, how it can manipulate a certain injury, but that's not going to be the one answer. There's also some really like there's other treatments that will be very effective also, and you should really delve into that instead of going ahead and buying one shoe and thinking it's going to solve all of your problems. Before we dive in Matt, is there anything you want to add to anything that I have just said? I really want to emphasize the fact, because I definitely did this, don't go around buying a ton of shoes trying to like just jump from one for one, trying to fix your problems, make sure that the first thing you take a look at is obviously your own body in terms of your training, the load that you're putting in your body, how you're moving, that kind of thing. It should be the priority and a shoe really should be a tool, an asset, an asset to that. But the priority is your own body, your strength level, how smart your training is, stuff like that. I'd also like to add, we may see this shift in the future, but currently, one of the things you have to be aware of is that I would argue that no shoe can prevent injuries. However, the wrong ones can certainly influence one. So there is definitely a better and a worse shoe. The evidence on a shoe being able to prevent injuries is next to none. And we can, I won't be too mean to a certain study done by a certain major footwear brand, but you have to be very cautious on saying that a shoe can prevent an injury, right? We are very, even in other areas outside of shoes, we have a very hard time finding things that truly prevent injuries outside of some of the literature on strength training. So we just have to be careful with our wording on that. They could certainly cause them, right? So Craig Payne would love me to remind people that shoes, there's no shoe can prevent an injury for sure, but they can certainly influence one negatively or more positively. So influence is probably the better word I would use. Yeah, a great point. And I love addressing a lot of people's convictions. Some people have a lot of belief around. Um, they got injured because of this shoe or they don't get injured because of this shoe and it's really good to lay that down and have a real crystal clear message like that. I wish it was that simple, but it's not. I promise there's so many other variables, but we will address one of those variables today. Yeah. Fantastic. I think the first one I want to discuss is the most common of injuries and that being the telephemeral pain. And what can we, what can we know about this condition? Oh, actually, no, let's talk about shoe characteristics. Let's before we go into these injury specific stuff, what characteristics do we need to know about a shoe before we discuss like brands and discuss like real specifics? Right. So the big things that I look at both in my role at Doctors are Running as well as a clinician, right, as a large portion of my patient population are runners and a lot of them are masters runners specifically. So the big things I look at first is, what's the shape of the shoe like? How does it fit? Are the two big things I look at first, because we do actually have some evidence out there that suggests that the more comfortably a shoe fits, the more likely it is to work for you. After kind of getting over that, I start looking at how, what's the firmness of the shoe, and firmness is gonna be very dependent on each person. Different people respond to different levels of firmness, right, or sole durometer, however you wanna call that. The next thing I look at is how is the shoe shaped? So one of the big things I look at, especially for patellofemoral pain, is sole flare. And that sole flare is how far out the sole extends beyond where the foot is. So you've probably seen those shoes, especially from Nike Adidas, where the back of the shoe, the sole extends super far back behind the shoe, right? Or if you're looking at it from the side, the shoe extends way far beyond that, to the medial and lateral sides, the outer inner sides. way further where the foot is. That is called sole flare. In the right person that can cause some issues, or in the wrong person that can cause some issues, in the right person that can actually provide some stability. So seeing where those projections are, or a second thing I'm looking at to see, hey, how is this going to influence strike pattern and stuff like that? And then I'm going to take a look at the sole to see, okay, what's the width like? Is there a super narrow midfoot, which can cause a little bit of instability coming on the person? What... How does the layout or the bottom of the outsole look? Is it full ground contact? Is it not full ground contact? Is there a midfoot shank, right? That usually that stiff plastic piece in the middle. Is that gonna influence the stiffness? What is it? Where is that place? And then I'm gonna look at the front of the shoe, right? So back of the shoe was looking at sole flare and heel bevel. Is it curved, right? Cause our calcaneus, our heel bone is curved. So you want a little bit of a curve back there. And then I'm gonna move to the front of the shoe and look at toe spring. I'm gonna look at what's that upward curve of the toes like? Is it enough, is it too much? How is that gonna roll me forwards? The upper we already talked about in terms of fit, but you can also go back to the midfoot and look at like, is there any projections or anything that's gonna influence that fit? And then I'm gonna go back to the heel and one of the major things I look at, there's tons of other things I'm probably not thinking about, but I'm looking at the heel counter and how that's gonna affect where my heel sits. How stiff is the heel counter? Is that gonna put excessive pressure on? on my Achilles, which for me, I have a little bit of a sensitive Achilles tendon insertion. I've got a little haggle and deformity on both sides. So those are the big things I'm looking for. And then those will, it'll vary the priority. I put that depending on the person sitting in front of me going, hey, what do you think of this shoe for me? So you'll hear me say it depends a lot, but each person is very unique as to which one of those things I'm gonna focus on first. Yeah, I think the shoe flare. like around that the sole flare is something that most people don't really consider. And so if you were to grab your shoe now and kind of just hold it up to your eye level and look from behind, if you have a look at where that heel is, you might see that the, um, that where the heel is placed, it kind of like the rubber kind of wings out and that would be an increased flare or you might see that doesn't wing out at all. And that might be, um, like lower on the flare scale. And that kind of just, axes if there's like little kind of wings or extra rubber on each side, it kind of, like you were saying, produces like stability. What could you say about say weight of the shoe? Weight will certainly affect it. We do know and both from the research and personal experience and anecdotally, the heavier shoe is, right, the harder it is to move. So your efficiency decreases as a shoe is super heavy. I've had that's gotten turned around a little bit as I've gotten to test some new shoes with some of these new foams. Not to shout a specific company, but the Sockity Triumph has really helped turn that on my head on its head where the new version, the 18 is a 11 ounce shoe and yet the foam has so much energy returned to it that it kind of makes you not notice that. So I personally am a fan of kind of not. getting the lightest shoe, but a lighter is a little better, right? Because it's less that you have to lift. However, when you start going to a super light shoe, right? Where it's going to be super close to the ground. There's no protection there. Certain that works well for certain people, right? I love, I'm biased because I love very firm, close to the ground racing flats, which have been disappearing, unfortunately, in today's market. Certain people do well in that. The less shoe you have, right? As you get to the one side of the spectrum, it becomes less efficient as your body has to shock absorb more. As you get to the other expender where it's super heavy, you also become less efficient because there's so much weight you've got to lift, it takes more effort. So every person has a middle ground. I tend to bias toward a little bit of a lighter weight shoe just because it's less to carry, right? And then that may influence some of the mechanics up higher, a little bit less than say a super heavy duty shoe. But as always, each person will have different preferences, right? And there's other factors that can influence how heavy a shoe feels versus how heavy it measures. Okay. And what about heel drop? Could you maybe describe what a heel drop might be? And do we need to know that? That is a yeah, you definitely need to know that. So the heel drop refers to the difference in height between the heel and the front of the foot. The industry standard used to be about 10 to 12 millimeters. That is now very different now. So you'll see anywhere from a zero millimeter differential between those two areas, right? To 12, 14, depending and then Most companies see you kind of sticking around that eight to 10 and it again it depends on what the classification of a shoe is You'll see these transitional shoes or minimalist shoes that have a lower drop You'll see some of these trainers that still have that very high drop and now you're sitting trainers that have a very low drop so it really depends on the Especially the mobility of the Achilles and the Achilles tendon people's strength and what they're used to right? So it's people are used to walking around barefoot. They're used to a low drop They may do better in a lower drop shoe, but people who've been wearing traditional shoes their whole life, if you're going to switch between them, take the time to ease in, gradually transition. Don't just a hundred percent transition your training, right? Because if we know one of the biggest influences of injury is sudden changes the body is not ready for. So heel drop was a huge topic for a long period of time. Recently in the literature, it has not been because what we started realizing is there's no difference in injury rates between different types of heel drop, right? There's different types that happen, but there's no difference in the injury rates. It's the same thing with foot strike, right? People used to get really into, you know, do you land on your heel versus do you land on your forefoot? And the more literature came out, the more we started realizing, yeah, it's not really, there's no different rate, right? The percentage isn't different, but the... the types of injuries are different. So if you have a lower heel drop shoe, it's not necessarily gonna make you get up on your toes. That was the conventional wisdom. Not everybody does that. The majority of people will still utilize the same form that they use with a high heel drop shoe. However, it will place stress in different areas. That's something we'll talk about with other components. I don't know how far you want me to go. I can easily go down this route. So make sure you guide me, because I'll just keep talking. Yeah. I think what we could add to that is pretty much saying like, um, a lot of people think that if you make a certain, like, if you change your shoe or if you change your running style, that you're going to reduce the load on the body. And a lot of people say, Oh, this will reduce your load on your body, reduce the ground reaction force, reduce all this, which will reduce your risk of injury. But what you're saying is you won't reduce the load. You would do still, you won't reduce the overall load. You will reduce it on a certain body part, but All it does is shift the load to somewhere else. And so it will increase your risk of injury somewhere else. But overall speaking, it will like the, the injury rates stay exactly the same because the load does shifts to somewhere else and will increase the likelihood of injury to somewhere else. Right. And you didn't take time to go, how can I change the load that's coming in here? Which that's always when we talk about your mechanics or your strength level, right? Load management is very, very So that's that should be one of the priorities before you think about and we've talked about this And I know I think you talked about this before and then we talked about this on doctors running You should be really thinking about other components before we start trying to change, you know foot strike or your heel drop or something Like that. These are not quick fixes as always this takes time for your body to adapt to right? So any shifts right each part some people are more adaptable, right? Some people can switch between heel offsets super easy I am very fortunate that I can actually do that There was a time in my life I couldn't and fortunately the amount of shoes that I tested and the amount of strength work I do has allowed me to do that because thank goodness with the number of shoes that come through for us to test. So I'm lucky in that regard. But yeah, so heel offset we can definitely talk about in terms of different injuries that we'll address in the future, but it is the difference between the back of the shoe and the front of the shoe in terms of height. And know that it's not a magic bullet. Yeah. And I think most people can find out what the heel drop is just by, you can either just Google like the make and model and the dimensions and specifics and it will have the, the heel drop unless you want to get fancy with some callipers or something. The calipers are great. I have a, I have a pair that I've slowly been utilizing, but I actually stopped using them because you have to realize that I told you as the difference in, in height between those two areas. However, you have to realize that when you land in that shoe, that number totally changes, right? The softness of the sole will change, right? So that's with zero drop shoes, right? Shoes that are totally flat. If you land in your heel on a soft zero drop shoe, you're gonna have a negative heel drop. Because when you load the shoe at that maximum loading point, you're gonna have a negative drop, right? Because the heel's gonna be more compressed from the forefoot. Just like with some of these shoes that have a very high heel drop, but the sole's super soft, the same thing's gonna happen. You might compress that shoe enough that it creates a zero or a low. heel drop or you may land at the front of the foot and it increases the heel drop. So remember that number is dynamic. You might see a number on the website, but depending on where you land, that number will change, which is why shoes will feel, even though it's like, oh, it's a nine millimeter drop. You may not notice it because like, wow, it feels like it's a lot lower. There's a lot of other variables that will affect that sole, the shape of the shoe, the softness level, how much the sole compresses. So the heel drop is a dynamic number. you can't base it just on the number that you see. Never thought of it that way, but it makes so much sense. Let's delve into patellofemoral pain. What can we say about shoes and patellofemoral pain? So based on my, so JF actually does, if I remember correctly, who you just talked to, does a lot of work on patellofemoral pain in shoes, correct me if I'm wrong. Yeah, he does. So one of the things, he's definitely an expert, and so he has, JF has not met me, but. He should know if he ever listens to this, that he's one of the people that inspired me to go do the PhD and ask better questions. So JF, thank you very much. When it comes to shoes and patellofemoral pain, patellofemoral pain can come from a variety of different places, right? So just, a lot of people tend to think that with patellofemoral pain or knee pain, that they should get a super maximal shoe and the softest cushioning possible. But they need to know that is not associated with less load. We know from the current research, even if you go into a Hoka shoe, that just because there's more stack height doesn't mean you're going to have less load. In fact, most people tend to land harder. What I generally suggest, the components that I take into account is looking at what's the stability of the shoe like, not necessarily posting, but how stable is the platform. I also will look at the curve, especially the heel bevel is something that I find very, very important in patellofemoral stuff. a very sharp and rigid, stiff rear foot where there's no bevel, right? There's no curve there. Means that initial impact when you hit the ground, if you land at your heel, if you land on the front of the foot, it's a totally different story. But if you land at the heel and there's no heel bevel, there's a lot more impact force that goes into your, under the lower extremity than if it's smooth and curved out. That is why our heel is curved, right? To help roll you forward. It's one of the things that makes us efficient as human beings. So that's the heel is one of the first place I take a look at patella femoral pain. And you'll hear me look at a lot of the same spots. Soul flare is another area that I take a look at, especially lateral soul flare. So if there's a ton of shoes sticking out the side, and I know this person lands really hard on the outside of the foot before they roll in, whether it's forefoot at the heel, that's another area I'm going to go, hey, that soul flare increases the... what's the term I'm looking for? The amount of motion that you have to go through, so it's an arc of motion as you hit the ground increases the more soul flare there is. So if you can visualize this, if you land in a shoe that's curved, it's going to roll you in much easier. Where if it's that shoe, it's really pointed out there, there's a greater arc of motion and your body's going to go through that at a faster speed to get that foot down. So greater speed, greater force, greater arc of motion, that's gonna influence definitely a lot of that lateral or side to side motion in the knee joint, which is very important to pay attention to. Just as the shoe being really far back, right, the sole being a lot of posterior sole flare, there's that foot has to travel a lot, a much larger direction. And so that knee is more likely to be pitched forwards, which may or may not put a little extra pressures there. So those are kind of the two of the areas that I look at initially, just knowing that a lot of patellofemoral pain and somebody may argue with this, a lot of injuries come from initial contact and basically when you hit the ground. So that's kind of the place that I'm looking at with those. You can get into other areas like how much arch support and stuff like that is, but looking at the heels, what the first place I take a look at and how that might influence where that knee might be going. Yeah. And we do know that the majority of runners are heel strikers and the amount of... Yes. people who suffer from patellofemoral pain are most likely going to be heel strikers themselves as well because you notice like the toe runners are more like calf, foot, Achilles, that kind of stuff. So if I was to summarize, you're trying to reduce the load that goes through the knee as much as possible, but sometimes getting a really thick, heavy cushioned shoe might not be the answer. No. Frequently not, right? So it's just, in some people it might work great, right? Because again, we know from the amount of, this is going down a deep rabbit hole, we know the amount of cushioning is subjective to each person, right? There's plenty of persons that have these super thick hug issues and they're like, wow, this still feels really firm. And then the next person comes and they goes, wow, this feels really, really soft. So it depends on a lot of other factors. Remember we said this is very complicated. There's a lot of factors. We'll try to simplify this down as much as you can. But what I'm looking for is, anything that makes that transition as they land a little bit easier. And so cushioning is nice, but the more important thing is going to be how is that sole set up to facilitate that transition. So I again will look at a lot of whether the shoe has a beveled heel or if it's a really stiff rigid one. You generally want to look at a shoe that has more beveled upward curve and not too much sole flare on that. or the outside portion because that may influence a little bit more stress through the knee joint. It's best to keep that down a little bit, especially as people are recovering. Then once you build up the load tolerance, you may have a little bit more flexibility with what shoes you can use. Again, remember the sole flare may influence this stuff. It doesn't mean it's going to kill you. It doesn't mean as soon as you put on a shoe with this, you're going to have knee pain. Not everybody responds that. Some people just may be more sensitive to it. Sure. And I know it can be tough to answer because you'll have individuals respond different to, um, a transition in shoe. And I think what you were alluding to last time is if you increase the cushioning of the shoe, some people respond really well, but others tend to respond in the opposite manner. And if someone is contacting with the heel when they're running and it's cushioning, a lot of times it can reduce the load, but other times the body can say, I can get away with more load and actually contact firmer on the ground because they can get away with it with the cushioning and therefore that increases load through the neck. So the key is the body thinks it can get away with more. It may not actually be able to do that. Very true. The joint forces are still really high. The body just goes, oh, well this ground is softer so I don't have to worry about like absorbing force as much. Is that true? No, the body still has to do that. So that battle influenced different people differently. depending on their body awareness. Yeah, how about if someone wants to transition into a lighter shoe to help patellofemoral pain? I think that's a great option to consider. Again, remember different people will do well for different shoes. I like the concept of a slightly lighter shoe and I'm not talking like a super barefoot kind of shoe. There is some evidence to suggest that if you can get people more aware of how much load that they're getting, through the lower body can help them attenuate that a little bit better and adjust the mechanics. As always adjusting to a lighter shoe, just take your time, right? There's enough options on the market now that the shape of the shoe, the heel offset, the cushioning, you can usually find the exact same shoe at a couple, I'm trying to figure out what measurements I should use because nobody else uses ounces in the material system outside the US. So we should definitely be using grams, but finding a shoe like a couple grams lighter It's definitely feasible. And I'd say try to avoid huge jumps. That's kind of my big theme for any transitions. If you're going to transition to a lighter shoe, take your time. Instead of jumping to the lightest thing possible, see if there's something that might be halfway between those as a way to do that. And then also, we also know that having a couple pairs of shoes actually is a better option than having just one, right? Because being able to switch between a couple allows the foam to recover and expose your body to a little different forces. So Instead of maybe saying, Oh, I'm just going to jump to a lighter shoe. It might be good to have a lighter shoe in your rotation, just to slowly work in and then become a larger part. Yeah. Okay. Absolutely. And I think the audience should know by now that the leading cause of injuries would be doing too much too soon or like any radical acute changes that exceeds the body's ability to adapt. And so, um, hopefully we're just reiterating what you already know. What you're saying is there could be either you could change a shoe very gradually or you could have a shoe that's quite different but slowly transition into that shoe. Right. Maybe like if you, let's say you're running in a super cushioned shoe and you said, hey, I want to try a lighter one. Maybe work it in, do some, maybe do the last couple of miles, a last mile of your run in them or... you know, do some strides in it initially and then go, Hey, I'm going to do some shorter runs in these and do my longer runs in the more cushioned shoe. And then as your body gets used to that, you can switch back and forth and having a variety of stimulus, a variety of load in your body is really one of the great ways to kind of reduce your injury risk. At least that's what we think. So yeah, I am, I am emphasizing it's, I'm trying to enable people to buy more shoes. Yeah. All right, shin splints. What can we say about shin splints? Definitely the same thing. So shin splints, especially that, I know I'm going to hear me say it posts your flare a lot. I'm not a huge fan of that. Post your flare for shin splints is like a huge no-no. Having a rockered sole is going to help a lot more reduce some of that load because we know shin splints usually is a couple of things. It's usually too much load through the... bone, right? So that's why shin splints is not the greatest term to describe this. And we all know that, but it can also be an irritation of the anterior tibialis, which is the muscle that helps control the front of the foot and slowly let it lower down when you land on your heel. So posterior flare is the worst possible thing for that because when you hit the ground early, right, it means first of all, the muscles weren't ready for that. So now you're going to get more impact through your joints and your bones. So that increases the load through that tissue. So if you can handle that, the bone can handle that, you're fine. But if your bone's not ready for that, you can get a little irritated over time with if you're training too much, if you're overtraining. So it's a perfect storm. But then also again, the foot has to go through a greater bark of motion to get your toes to come down so you can transition into flat foot toe-offs. So mid stance and terminal stance. So posterior flare is one of the things you should definitely avoid for somebody with shin splints or any kind of anterior tib issue. because more so again comes from impact. Yeah. I thought that when I, when I delve into research around, um, yeah, shoe types and running types and whether there's injuries, it's, uh, it seems like when it comes to shin splints, there is quite a link correlation between the rocking in the pronation of the foot and the rate that it pronates, and I don't want to get into like people should know by now. pronation is a totally normal action that the foot takes when you run. And so your foot should be pronating. We don't want to eliminate pronation, but the rate that it rotates, it kind of whips the, the ankle in when you do run. If the shoe is flared out, like you were saying, it's a greater volume. It's a greater amplitude, but also at a faster rate. And so that can manipulate those structures. It can. And the other thing that you should definitely look at is for those people, you know, those shoes that have a super narrow profile, right? So especially that super narrow midfoot, which is a, the companies use that as a way they try to save weight as you trans over transition over that something more stable platforms that will certainly may influence production in one way or another. Again, production is bad. You have to ask yourself, do you have control over it? Because there are people that come into the clinic all the time that have super flat feet. And they they're the they pronate a ton, but they're very strong and they have control of it. That's not the problem. It's when it becomes uncontrolled or there are factors that like you said, that make it kind of go faster than the body's ready to tolerate it. That can certainly also contribute to the shin splints. And those tend to contribute more to the shin splints associated with the anterior tibialis, right, because it's both a dorsiflexor and an inverter of the foot. So it's controlling pronation and how fast that foot is coming down. So. It makes sense to that without getting strange. So against the soul, the health, how wide or narrow the soul is can also influence that. So those people with that kind of issue, arch support doesn't work for everybody, right? Because the source of where that pronation is coming from, maybe from the foot, maybe from the hip, depends. So as you said, yes, flares one thing that will influence that, right? So the more flare you have, the more your foot is gonna pitch in. And then, but, you might actually want to look for a shoe that has a wider base or some medial flare might actually resist that motion a little bit and give you a little, it may slow it down a little bit. So that might be something you want to look for. So it depends. Post ear and lateral flare, like back and the outside you might want to avoid, but flare on the inside, a little arch support or a little wider sole may actually be advantageous for this population along with a little bit of a rockered sole. Okay, cool. And is there anything else that we can add for shin splints before moving on? Uh, as I said before, your training load is super, super important, right? A lot of, we know from a lot of literature, the shin splints come from again, too much too soon, right? A lot of those, I have a couple of those where they they've jumped around between different medical professionals and nobody's been able to figure out what it is. And they take a rep, they rest for a little bit and then it comes right back. Those you definitely. those medical providers out there always screen people, not just freak people out, but always screen people for a repeated bone stress injury. So the lot of runners, when they continue to have that on and off again, on and off again stuff, really make sure you screen out whether it was a potential tibial or, I've actually seen one fibular stress fracture, which I don't know how that happened, but make sure you screen those out and make sure people get checked. Because low people landing way the heck too hard. You see people slamming their feet down to the ground. So it may not be the best option. So not a shoe, not a shoe answer to there, but those are kind of still the big things that I would pay attention to. Some people might have some different things that they might pay attention to, but those are kind of the big ones I would pay attention to. Yeah. I think it's worth reminding people like just what you said, because a lot of people are going to have an injury and blame the shoes and a lot of people do it. A lot of people do it. And it's worth overstating. It's worth saying over and over again that make sure the diagnosis is accurate to start with, especially when it comes to shin splints, because there's a very, there can be other more serious conditions that masquerade a shin splints, especially, but we should also know that with all of these that we're talking about most in most cases, it's going to be the spike in load. Well, the main scenario I wanted to get across today was someone who has this condition for a very long period of time and is trying to, um, trying to find, use the shoe as a tool to help, um, with the recovery. But yeah, it's definitely worth overstating because I know a lot of people post a lot of things and they say, I had this shoe, I got patella femur pain. It's the shoe or like, um, they'll quickly, they'll quickly blame the shoe. But when you look at their loads, they've gone from 10 K a week to 50 K a week. And it's like, well, come on, mate, let's, let's be realistic. If you multiply if you yeah, there's a there's some great graphs out there that show the there's an optimal amount of load That will keep you healthy. But if you start going too little too much That's where you kind of start getting a little bit more especially too much. That's where you start getting a little bit more at risk So yeah to answer your answer your question again for those people with shin splints You need to really be aware of what the rear part of the shoe looks like again that Posture I don't really have a good reason to have post your flare or post your lateral flare So anything in the side outside of the back? There's two areas that can certainly influence that. But in terms of the shoe you might want to look for is a shoe with a little bit wider base, maybe a little bit more medial sole flare. Just a shoe that's a little bit more stable, but also a nice rockered rear that helps kind of roll you forward nicely and can take that transition, make that a little easier. Definitely for shin splints. Awesome. And I don't mean to call out a certain company. ASICS is doing a much better job with this right now in terms of starting to bevel and curve their heels. That is one company that I generally tell people that with shits wants to avoid. Um, and I've had very, I've been, I've been fairly accurate on that just because they don't usually have a lot of heel bevel there. The rear foot tends to be really stiff and so landing can be a bit jarring. Um, I, I know people love their ASICs. I think it's a great company. They're doing some very cool stuff, but a lot of times you have to start looking at how companies repeatedly do things. And so that's one company I generally have people try to avoid if they're having shin splints or that even sometimes some of that lower Achilles stuff. And we'll dive into the Achilles stuff in just a second. Yeah. Before we do that, let's have a talk about ITB syndrome. Yeah, definitely. So ITB syndrome, again, you're going to hit the same thing. Lateral soft layer in the forefoot or the heel. So I've seen several people that are very, very high heel strikers, And again, most people land on the outside of their foot. So if they land and that thing is too far out there, you're gonna get pitched in really, really quick, or you're gonna have a lot more impact force on that outside part with that sole flare. So that's something I really see in a lot of people that strike farther forward. Again, sole flare, it's not a great thing. It can put a lot of people with IT band issues at risk. The other thing is, again, looking at the shape of the shoe. I've also seen people with too much medial sole flare that are getting pushed out or the shoe is pitched in a certain way. So they may not even have flare. If you look at the back of the shoe, you can see whether the foot is going to sit level or if there's what we call pitch, right? Is the heel or the foot being pitched in a certain direction, right? So very rarely is the shoe totally flat, right? They try to do it, but it's usually there's a bias toward one side or the other. And For people with IT band syndrome, you really want to keep things in the middle as possible. So when you look at the back of your shoe, your foot should be sitting as even as possible because you can get IT band syndrome from the knee going too far in or too far out, right? That tissue can be overstretched or compressed. Either way, it can go that direction. So trying to keep your foot in the middle as much as possible is a really nice thing. And then... The other thing I would suggest as well is try to avoid heavier shoes just because a major contributor, it's not a bad muscle, but the tensor fascia lata at the hip is a very important muscle that loves to do more than it needs to. It needs to be strong. Often I find people actually have weak tensor fascia lata muscles or TFLs. The heavier shoe is, the more they're going to have to use those hip flexors to lift that stuff up. So I generally try to have people avoid super heavy shoes just because it makes your hip flexors work really hard unless they're strong enough to be able to handle that. So weight and that lateral sole flare is two major things I would be cautious with. Yeah. Um, I think it's worth mentioning now that like the TFL is the muscle that's kind of acts as a hip flexor as well, but is one of the main muscles that. joins and almost becomes the ITB itself. And so it's one of the muscles that directly manipulates the ITB. It's one of my favorite muscles because it does so many things, right? It just, it controls so many different components of both the hip and knee and pelvis. So show it some love, right? It needs to be, it needs to be, I've seen several TFL strains in my time and it's like, wow, you really messed this thing up just because it gets overused, right? So make sure everything's balanced. Yeah. And so if I was to summarize ITB syndrome, we're kind of looking at, I don't really like using the word alignment, but we're looking at making sure that the knee doesn't rock too far in or too far out. If you're looking at a runner from behind and looking at them kind of as they go through their running motion, as that foot's making contact with the ground, we wanna making sure there's not too much movement of the knee going in or going out. Right. And so any of the factors that's gonna influence that, right? Maybe somebody is an issue that has too much stability. Because again, stability is, everybody's like, oh, give me an issue with more support, more support, more support. More support is not better. It really depends on the person. Some people respond super well to stability, some people do not. I know that for myself, even though I have a lot of foot motion, if you give me an issue that has too much arch support, too much stability, or pushes me more than one direction, I have a history of IT band stuff and I will start feeling mine flare up a little bit. So more is not always better. You need to make sure your foot kind of has the optimal amount it needs to be able to keep the best, its own kind of preferred movement pathway, which I'd like to cite Dr. Ben-O-Nig on a lot of that concept. People should go look up that article called the preferred motion path, which has really turned a lot of what we know in the floor world upside down. But again, just to summarize and not to go off topic. You want to really make sure there's nothing that's influencing your foot to be pushed too far or lower extremity to be pushed too far in one direction. Balance is key, right? So that means looking at soul flare, is it pushing an arch support? Is it pushing you too much one way or another? Yeah. And then wait as well, just because again, the IT band works. It does so many different things with the tensor flush a lot of the glutes. heavier shoe is the more stress it might put on that on that area if you're not ready to do that. Okay. Is there any advantage to having heavier shoes or any advantages to having a heel flare? Which direction? So let me actually answer that question. So yes, depending on the person, right? So a heavier shoe for some people. Like if you ask most elite runners, and I have been told this repeatedly from the, I have had such a wonderful opportunity to work with many elite runners, both in person and over telehealth. And I've always asked them the question is, do you ever like, what do you guys find the advantage of training in heavy shoes? And one of the big things they always tell me anecdotally is going, it makes me feel when I put on lighter shoes, it makes me feel faster, right? So if you're going to train in a heavy shoe, right, it's kind of like weightlifting. Right, it acts, if you, and light weight lifting, if you ease into it, it may help improve your strength. And it may also give you the sense that, hey, you've got a little more protection there. Is that necessarily true? Not necessarily sure, but that's mostly the reason why people train heavier shoes, is they might want a little more cushion during easy runs, or they might want to feel a little faster when they switch to lighter shoes. Soulflare can be utilized for many different purposes. So if somebody's moving too much in one direction, you can utilize sole flare to influence them back, right? So the old adage of saying arch support is the only way to get stability, right? So when I say arch support, I should clarify, I mean a harder density on the inner part of the foot than the outside. So arch support is really meant to attempt to influence, how much it actually influences when we're starting to see literature that questions that. It's attempting to resist motion or slow down pronation. and the foot collapsing inwards on the inner part of the shoe. Soul flare can be used similar where it's again, it can slow down motion, either going into pronation or supination. So lateral soul flare actually can be very effective for those rare people and rare that supinate too much as a way to kind of influence them to come a little bit more back. So I've actually suggest, sockini is one that typically does a lot of lateral soul flare at the forefoot. And I've had some people that they were towing off and they were coming way off that poor pinky toe. And I had a young woman who had a lot of stress fractures on the fifth metatarsal. And so we utilized a shoe with a little bit more lateral sole flare. She's a heel striker as a way to kind of influence her to get back over that first toe because that's your big pivot point. So in the right person, you can use sole flare to influence them back toward the middle. It's not always a bad thing, but some people it can. push them too far in one way. Okay, very nice. How about if we're talking about calf strains, can we kind of give the same advice for Achilles and calf strains? Can they kind of be categorized into one category? Definitely, definitely, definitely. It's a yes, I think you should definitely pay attention to both of them and we can lump these in a little bit. There are some subtle differences, but. I would agree based on what's the similar complex that yes, you can lump them in. I'm talking a lot as I'm trying to like think through this and go, can we do that? Oh, yeah. Yeah. I think we've got the same ideas in our mind. I think we're going through the same questions. Yeah. So with Achilles and calf stuff, I really start looking toward the front of the shoe. So that's where the concept of toe spring comes in and flexibility at the front of the shoe. So a shoe that is super stiff in the front. The calf has to work a lot harder to get your foot over that. Toe spring, which you're starting to see in more and more shoes, especially as shoes get thicker, because toe spring is that upward curve of the sole. It replaces the body's ability to roll forward. So normally, you would get that from the first couple of joints in your foot called the metatarsals, so your forefoot, those toe joints. You'd normally get that from those extending as you roll over them. Now, if somebody is, say, If they're a little older or younger, they don't have that motion there. That's where toe spring really helps. Because if you don't have that motion there, the stiffer your toes are, it's a longer lever so it means your calf has to work that much harder to get over that. So the front of the foot is where I'm focusing with this. Now whether you're going to have a calf strain or a Achilles strain is going to depend on which part is getting to handle more load. So a lot of times I'll see people with super strong cows with Achilles. tendon may not be as adept at tolerating the amount of either load or what have you versus other people who may have super awesome tendons, but that calf strength is not good. For people out there, if you're going to run, you should be able to do at least 20 to 25 single leg heel raises on each side. That is one of my... I make patients of mine who are coming back from calf strains or Achilles surgeries and things like that. I make sure they can do at least 30 plus single leg U raises because having good calf strength is very important. Stronger that the calf is too, right? When you do that kind of strengthening, you use the Achilles follow along with it. So not to go off topic, sorry everybody, but the front of the shoe is the biggest thing that I'm looking for. And not just for forefoot strikers. People usually assume that forefoot strikers are the only ones that are going to have a Achilles injury. That is not true. Although, landing at the front of your foot does mean you may have more risk of that. People who land on their heel also, if you've got to push off that thing, it does make it harder. So I'm going to look at toe spring, right? If you do have a history of Achilles injury issues, look for a shoe that can roll forward for you, right? So the more toe spring there is, the less work your calf has to do. And there's actually a good amount of research on that. With all the super shoes out there, so the Nike Vaporfly, the Sockoning Endorphin Pro, all those kinds of shoes. One of the things that suggests might make people more efficient running in those because their calf and their feet don't have to work as hard because of the rockered sole, especially at the front of the foot. So that's not to say that toe spring is the answer to everything because a lot of times people that are very ankle dominant may find that takes away their strategy and so it becomes a lot harder to run. I'm one of those people. So yeah, it will totally depend on how much you need as a person. Yeah, great. And I think we're appealing to a lot of people if we're, um, talking about a heel strike rather than a four foot strike. And what you're explaining is we can find components within the shoe that can assist in rocking us forward and propelling us forward and kind of offloading. Um, the requirements required for the Achilles and the calf for, um, propulsion. Yeah. Thank you Brody for summarizing as I'm still working on Desus SYNC and you can see it's not going very well. No, it's going very well. You're doing all the heavy lifting. I'm just listening. So yeah, so again, toe spring will, the more, if you have a history of Achilles issues, I highly suggest some toe spring, but what people need to realize is some of these shoes that also have carbon plates there, they can increase the amount of stress through the Achilles tendon as well. So when that shoe first came out. The Nike Vaporfly, I was actually doing my orthopedic residency and shout out to everybody from Casa Calina who were wonderful and helped me through that. But man, so the area, Casa Calina is in Pomona, which is right next to a really nice area called Claremont, California, which for people that are in California, you should go visit. But there is obviously a lot of money and older runners in that area that have disposable income. So we had a ton of people coming in going, wow, I've gotten all these like... forefoot issues or Achilles strains. And I just ordered this new shoe and I'm like, what is it? And of course it was that. So just know that stiffness and that upward curve will influence things even at the Achilles and the calf. So be aware that even if you see a shoe with a lot of toe spring, if that plate, that carbon fiber plate that makes these shoes so unique. If that's too stiff, that's still gonna increase stress through there, so you may not need the stiffest shoe, right? Sometimes having a little bit more flexibility at that front or a little bit more toe spring is better for those with Achilles injuries and issues because the less work you have to do to get over the front of the foot, the less stress you're gonna have back there. Now, if you're trying to run fast, right, sometimes it's good to have a little extra stiffness there because it helps propel you forward, but you better make sure your Achilles is ready for that. heel drops within a shoe when it comes to Achilles and calf strains? Of course. How could I forget that? Thank you for reminding me. So, yes, I can't believe I forgot that. So the higher heel drop, the less strain you're likely to see on the Achilles to an extent. When you actually get up to really, really high heel drops, so some of the older shoes have like a 14 to 16 millimeter drop, know that stretching, that over-stretching the Achilles is not the only thing that influences injury there. We've seen some literature that also shows that compression too can also make that an issue. So super high heel drops or super low heel drops can also make people at risk for more Achilles injuries. So it depends on why you're having the issues. I've seen a lot of people with really high heel drops come in and like, this shouldn't be like this. But again, compression or overstretching the Achilles tendon can put it at risk for injury. So trying to find something a little bit in the middle. is usually good. So that's why I use this test people look at like eight to 10 millimeter drop. But the most frequent one is, Hey, if you go to a super low heel drop shoe, your foot's going to go through, your ankle is going to go through a lot more motion. And that's good. That can put a lot more stress to the Achilles. So finding a shoe that might have a little higher heel drop for a while may help. Yeah. And I think it's worth knowing that if you don't have Achilles issues and you try a new shoe that has a lesser heel drop that just know that the Achilles and the calf are going to be required to do a bit more heavier lifting. So make sure that it's a slow transition or make sure the Achilles and calf are strong enough to handle that. And accept that you're going to be really sore afterward. Most people so it's just, just know that's coming. I, um, when I was very first starting out as a runner, I had like a, what you could call like a traditional shoe and was learning more about lighter and lesser shoes. And I was running probably about 15 K comfortably. And I wasn't like, I was maybe just graduated, did know a lot about running specific stuff. And so I had my lesser shoes, zero heel drop, probably weighed about a hundred and something grams. So like really, really light. And I ran, I think three or four K and my calves were shot for days afterwards. And I couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe that life, even my feet, the muscles in my feet were. So like it was just domes. Luckily I didn't, I didn't get an injury luckily, but yeah, it was crazy how I just did a simple run three, four Ks and it was just destroyed for days. Right. And you're used to running 15 K every like all the time. Right. So you're like, Oh, this, this can't be an issue. Right. But you got to realize that big of a change, right. The muscles aren't used to doing that. That's why we all, we also know one of the things I suggest to people, um, is if you get, if you want to go that route, if you want to get that super minimal, like kind of, uh, barefoot style kind of shoe, just start walking in them, right? Because we know that the difference in load is like three to four times different between walking and running because walking requires a lot more muscle activation. So if you just go start walking in those shoes, that will be more than enough to get your body starting to get used to a little bit. So you know, we at Doctors of Running just started doing a little stuff with Newton, right? And so people who don't know Newton usually has... very low heel offsets and they have a specific technology that kind of helps, that's supposed to help you pivot off the front of the foot a little bit more. But I was very nervous because right before that, I was testing a shoe that had a massive heel drop. So to get my body used to that, I just started wearing the shoes in the clinic and walking around in them all day. I got a little bit sore. By the time I was ready to run them, I was fine. So walking and testing them out and spending some time in the shoes is a great way to get your body used to that and prepare it for the transition to start running in them. Yeah, and I was like, sorry, which is what? So Brody, I had the exact same experience as you, uh, when I started going in college, when I had this like big barefoot transition, what I wanted to do. And I was so sore. But I was like, when you're running them and go, this feels great. It's so fat. And then the next day you're like, Oh my goodness, why did I do that? Like, I can't even walk. And so yeah, that's the same experience. And you learned really quick. Yeah. What I like to think about is it also. it might make you more of a resilient runner if you get better in different shoes. And that's what I like to think about. If you have the luxury of having different types of shoes and adapting to different types of shoes, it kind of helps your resiliency. And what you mentioned before, people who, like the elites that are wearing heavier shoes and saying that it can, it can kind of be like strength training. Cause you're using, different muscles are working harder and different muscles are working harder in a lesser shoe. And if you're just building up, different loads, if you're shifting the load to different areas and the body's adapting to those, you're going to be an all-round resilient runner, which is a really nice way to utilize shoes for performance. Right. And it's fun to have options in terms of going, hey, if I'm going to go do a race, which hopefully we'll start up again, if I'm going to go do a race, it's nice to have a lighter shoe that you can start working a little bit faster in, or if you're going to try to do a workout or run a little faster. you do, you don't necessarily want to, you may not want to run in that super light shoe all the time, right? Cause that's a lot of impact. Your body's going to work really hard. In a certain way, you might want to be able to switch back to another shoe to go, Hey, I just might need a little more protection today than yesterday. So we, again, we do know from the research that having a variety of shoes is one of the few things that we know can actually reduce your injury risk because again, it redistributes the load. So it's not just the same spot getting hit every time. Yeah. But having the knowledge. having the knowledge and like utilizing it properly is, um, the key. And that's why I love like these sort of topics. And I, a couple of episodes ago, I did, um, talk through my experience overcoming a tendinopathy. And as I was building up my mileage, my cars were starting to get sore because it was a mileage that, um, I hadn't done for a long time. And so I actually. Stud doing more runs in something with a higher heel drop. And just because I knew that, uh, a better heel drop helps. here like the calves recover and so they weren't going to be working as hard for my, um, my other runs. So it is a way to transition in and out of shoes depending on your circumstances as well. If you do need other muscle groups to work harder than, than others. Yep. Really cool. Yeah. That's awesome. And so you're doing, you're doing well with the tendinopathy, right? Everything's doing good so far. Everything's great. Yeah, actually. Awesome. I'm running like 10 Ks plus and I'm actually having zero issues. I'm having zero, like, um, stiffness, zero soreness and yeah, feeling really great. Nice. Congrats. That's awesome. I think anything else we want to add on Achilles and calf strains? No. Yeah. That you brought up, but thank you for reminding me the, uh, the heel drop and the front of the shoe, what that looks like in terms of how flexible it is or how much toe spring it is will definitely, uh, or how stiff it is. will definitely influence the calf and the Achilles. So those are the two big areas I would take a look at. No, as I always say, each person's different, but a lot of people, you know, we're coming off the big minimalist way, right? So you're seeing much more of the like super cushioned shoes right now, but that stuff still exists. So people that are making those transitions just to a lower offset shoe, just know that, you know, just take time, right? Because a lower offset may put a little more stress there. People that are jumping into these, really stiff carbon fiber plated shoes, just know that puts a little bit more stress there. So know that you just need to take time to ease into that stuff and your body will do fine if you give it time to adapt. Awesome. Matt, you have the Doctors of Running website, so doctorsofrunning.com and pretty much across all social media platforms. You've got Doctors of Running like YouTube, Facebook, Instagram. You've also started a new podcast. Can you maybe just explain a little bit about that? the podcast and what you guys discussed? Yeah, so the podcast is, it's a variety of things. So we will, we're doing a video and podcast based reviews of all the shoes we're trying to kind of just expose people to a different form of the media that we're trying to do. So most of our stuff in the past is all written. So we're trying to do written and video. So those who need a little bit more visual stimulus or auditory influence or stimulus can take a look at those where we will go review shoes. all three of us usually, give different opinions, talk about the biomechanics behind them. But what we've started to do, and what's gonna happen in the future, is we're actually gonna start bringing people from the footwear industry in, start interviewing them and talking about their kind of thoughts on footwear, how their company really goes in terms of how they design their footwear, and getting some background on trying to help people understand each company, what their goal is, and why they make shoes a certain way. So we're super excited. Tomorrow actually, we're going to have the people at Newton come on and talk with us about how they design their shoes, their company history. And we're very excited. We have a couple other people lined up from different companies to do interviews with. So it's expanding beyond shoe reviews and other biomechanics stuff. But we'll also have, we have a talk on heel drop, ironically in foot strike. And we'll also keep talking. Again, the whole goal is education, getting people more aware of that stuff. So a lot of stuff's coming. benefit extremely from the content that you're producing. The podcast is a called Doctors of Running? Yep, it's the same title. Fantastic. I think that having the visual component is like just an added element that can be extremely beneficial as well because you can actually look at the shoe and you can show them the flair and you can show them like the flexibility or like certain characteristics of a shoe will help grasp the concept a lot better. So you do that across all the other. platforms and I highly recommend that people seek that out. Before we jumped on this interview, I told you that shoe selection and shoe brands and all that sort of stuff is kind of my blind spot because I've stuck to only one or two types of shoes throughout my running career and haven't really explored any variations. So I'm gonna be a big listener and one of your biggest fans. Thank you. That's it means a lot as somebody who's been a huge fan of your podcast for a long time. So that's awesome. When you first contacted me, I'm like, Oh my gosh, he's reaching out. That's so cool. We'll grow together as we pick up on each other's info. Is there anywhere else like someone could go or any other action someone could take? Um, if they are really enjoying your stuff, really enjoying your content. Um, I love, I really want to give a big shout out to two people who have influenced me quite a bit in terms of the footwear game. Um, Simon Bartold, so Bartold Biomechanics is a great place to learn more about footwear. And Simon is phenomenal, his knowledge in the running shoe industry. He's been in there for years, right? He's worked with ASICS, he works with Solomon, he's worked with all these different companies. So he's taught me a lot. His website is a great place to learn. Craig Payne is the other really awesome person to go pick his brain. He gives a lot of great lectures, does a lot of He previously had a website called Running Research Junkie, which has been a little quiet. He has a new platform that is coming out shortly. If it has, Craig, I'm sorry if it's already come out, I haven't seen it yet. But those are the two really awesome guys that will teach you a lot about running shoes and shoes and how they might influence the body. In terms of the research world, Dr. Benenig is still kind of the king, although you'd probably deny that. Um, when it comes to research on running shoes and footwear and things like that. So there's some very cool research articles out there that people should definitely check out if they really want to dive into that stuff. Um, and yeah, those are the big places and those are the guys that, that influenced me and helped me kind of think about what I'm putting on my feet and how I can try to help people learn more about that. Yeah. So I'm about to hold another, um, a good Aussie from Adelaide. I'm actually interviewing. I've got him lined up tomorrow. I'm actually going to interview him. Nice. Yeah. That is great. Let him know that I said hi. I don't know if he remembers. We've had a couple like online chats, but tell him that he's always been a really awesome influence and inspiration. Yeah, absolutely. I know this topic is very hard to talk about just on its own and it's extremely challenging. And as long as the audience, they get the concept that this is just one piece of the puzzle, We could have taken so many segues and so many different tangents on this regarding like even just gate retraining, like they can have different shoe types, but you can also try and slowly manipulate how you're running with cadence or step width or something like that, which influence a lot of these things as well. And even just like we're talking about loads or even terrain uphill, downhill, like trails, flats, all these sorts of things, looking at strength, all these sort of things can manipulate, but. The. shoe itself is just one piece of the puzzle, but can be an important piece of the puzzle. So I want to thank you for coming on and sharing your knowledge. There's a lot of gaps that I don't know and you've filled them very, very well. And you've absolutely nailed tackling this, just one specific topic. So thanks again, Matt, for coming on. Thank you, Brody. Thank you so much for having me. I'm very honored to be on here. So this is great. This is awesome. Thanks for listening to another episode of the Running Smarter Podcast. I hope you can see the impact this content will have on your future running. If you want to continue expanding your knowledge, please subscribe to the podcast and keep listening. If you want to learn quicker, jump into the Facebook group titled Become a Smarter Runner. If you want tailored education and physio rehab, you can personally work with me at brea Thank you so much once again, and remember, knowledge is power.