Ep. 537 w/ Tim Liu CTO & Co-founder of Hillstone Networks

Hillstone Networks' innovative and accessible cybersecurity solutions reshape enterprise security, enabling cyber resilience. By providing enterprises and service providers with the visibility and intelligence to comprehensively see, thoroughly understand, and rapidly act against multilayer, multistage cyberthreats, Hillstone’s products are favorably rated by leading analysts and trusted by over 23,000 global companies. With a reputation for "security that works," Hillstone's product suite covers enterprise edge to cloud and includes NGFW, SD-WAN, ZTNA, NDR, XDR, and CWPP. Hillstone's cutting-edge solutions leverage AI/ML and integrate seamlessly into SecOps frameworks, providing CISOs the assurance that their enterprises are well-protected while enabling a lower TCO.

https://www.hillstonenet.com/

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Kevin Horek: Welcome back to the show.

Today we have Tim Lou, he's the CTO
and co-founder of Hillstone Networks.

Tim, welcome to the show.

Tim Liu: Thank you

Kevin Horek: Kevin.

Yeah, I'm excited to have you on the show.

I, I think what you guys are doing
at Hillstone Networks is actually

really innovative and, and cool.

But maybe before we get into all that,
let's get to know you a little bit better

and start off with where you grew up.

Tim Liu: Um, I, I grew up in,
uh, in China, so very cool.

Uh, I actually, uh, moved forward
to United States after I grad,

graduated from my college.

Uh, so I started my PhD study here.

Kevin Horek: Okay.

So what did you take
in university and why?

Tim Liu: Uh, I actually, I was
majoring in physics, uh, both of my

undergrad and also graduate study.

Um, okay.

I, uh, the top period I was, uh, in
college was in 1980s and the, the

computer was just starting to come
up, but it's not a big major yet.

Uh Right.

So that's the reason
why I, I got in physics.

Kevin Horek: Okay.

Was there something that got you
passionate about physics at an early age?

.
Tim Liu: Um, actually it is actually
during the, uh, you know, my PhD studies

actually, I was in a cross discipline
between, you know, uh, physics and,

uh, um, you know, computational math.

Uh, you know, you probably heard
about health theory, you know?

Yeah.

Studying of complex
systems, things like that.

So try to use, um, you know, Complex
system to model, uh, you know,

physical sy physical, physical systems.

Um, so I actually got into
like, uh, neural networks at

that time, um, very early on.

Wow.

But, you know, I, I never thought I
could, uh, use any of those actually

in, in my actual job in, in computer.

But you know, that's a interest.

Interest.

Okay.

Very cool.

Kevin Horek: So you get outta
school, walk us through.

Your journey up until Hillstone,
maybe some highlights along

the way, cuz you've done a ton

Tim Liu: of stuff.

Okay.

Okay.

So basically after school,
uh, when I graduate, uh, you

know, my PhD got my PhD degree.

It was around 20, uh, 92 and 93.

And, uh, this was actually a
economic downturn at that time.

Um, One of the major project, uh,
you know, the super conducting

super Collider, the major project
in Texas, that one got canceled.

Uh, so along with a lot of, you know,
postdoc jobs and everything, so I,

I got into, uh, you know, computer
science, um, because of my, you know,

a lot of computer time I spent on
the, uh, on the, on the PhD work.

And, uh, later on, , uh, I went to,
uh, Intel, uh, and, uh, helped them,

um, you know, work with Microsoft on
Windows, uh, 64 for a period of time.

Uh, later on I, uh, you know,
moved on to a couple of startups,

uh, around the year 2000.

And after year 2000 I joined Nest Green,
which is the, my first, uh, security job.

Kevin Horek: Okay.

Okay.

So walk us through your security
career up into coming up with the idea

in co-founding Hillstone Networks.

Tim Liu: Okay.

Okay.

So Net Screen was actually doing, uh, you
know, building network firewall, uh, based

on, uh, ASIC chip and, uh, net screen
eventually got, uh, acquired by Juniper

and I was doing, uh, you know, basically
I was leading the VPN development

in, uh, both Nestle and Juniper.

Um, so around the year 2006.

Um, so at that time, I think, uh, me and
a few of my colleagues, you know, decided

to come out and fund a new company.

And, uh, one of the, um, uh, things
at that point is actually coming

out of, of U T M technology, which
is combining of different security,

uh, functionality into one box.

Like antivirus, ipss.

And, uh, that actually slowed the,
um, the system down a great deal.

And at that point, uh, there's a new
technology coming out, which is multi core

processors in, in multiple processors.

And we thought that could accelerate
the, you know, application security,

you know, the AVS and ipss.

And we built, we come out with the, uh,
probably one of the first, uh, medical.

process based, uh, you know,
appliances, uh, you know, in the world.

Interesting.

And that start of the Hillstone

,
Kevin Horek: sorry, what, what?

I missed that last

Tim Liu: thing.

What was that?

Uh, that was the start of the Hillstone

Kevin Horek: networks.

Okay, got it.

Okay.

So walk us through that early version.

So how did you come up with the idea and,
and what made you actually decide to go

for it and, you know, leave, leave a job.

Tim Liu: Okay.

Um, The Technologywise, you know, u
t m is a good, uh, uh, direction, uh,

you know, comp, you know, the security
is getting more complex and there's

a lot of different functionalities.

And u t M is a way to, uh, Put,
you know, all those security

functionality into one device so
that it's easier for user to manage.

Right.

Uh, it's a good concept, but, uh, at
that point, um, you know, most of the

appliances have a very small c p inside.

And, uh, once you turn on all
the security functionalities, the

performance drop tremendously.

So that's where the, uh,
multiple processors can help.

So, uh, what we did was, uh,
we come up with a device that.

Uh, have this medical processors,
that's up to like 32 course.

Uh, each with like two gig gigahertz.

So it has a lot of computation power,
which helps the application security

processing and, uh, you know, so, so
the in the UTM performance get boosted,

um, and with the pickup of, you know,
people accepting UTMs and you know,

together our business also pick up.

Okay.

Kevin Horek: So did you raise
money to, to start this company?

Because doing hardware is not
cheap, especially back then.

Uh, yes.

Tim Liu: I, we are venture, uh, VC funded.

Kevin Horek: Okay.

Okay.

So walk us through.

The journey of Hillstone to what
it is today, cuz you guys have

been around a very long time.

Tim Liu: Yes.

Uh, we have been, uh, mostly
focusing on the, you know, southeast

Asia, uh, market in Asia and, uh,
recently, uh, in the Latin market.

Um, okay.

So why

Kevin Horek: is that largely wise?

Yeah.

Sorry, sorry to cut you off, but why is.

.
Tim Liu: Um, actually, uh, me and
a few of my, um, colleagues, uh,

background is actually in China.

So we actually, a lot of the
development team is actually in China.

Ah, okay.

Yeah.

So the ma uh, uh, uh, maybe
in like 70, 80% of business,

uh, today is in, in, in manna.

Uh, about the, the other part
are in, mostly in Latin America

and also in Southeast Asia.

Kevin Horek: Okay.

Interesting.

So what made you go after
that market Originally?

Just connections, but like,

Tim Liu: it's also those, the
market are less developed.

Ah, and, uh, and, uh, there's
less, uh, major player ma major

competition in that, uh, region.

Kevin Horek: Interesting.

Okay.

So I, I think this is actually
really good advice because you are

located in Silicon Valley, correct?

Yes.

And so, , obviously.

I, I think it's really interesting
because you're building a product for,

well, your main majority of your clients
are completely outside of North America.

Mm-hmm.

, and I think sometimes as, as startup
founders, we, we forget about

that, that, you know, maybe we
wanna build something for America.

Maybe we wanna build something for
another part of the world for the

reasons you just outlined, because
competition and, and, and whatnot.

So, keep going.

Tim Liu: Sorry.

Yes.

So basically product, uh, usually
the product wise, It's mostly,

um, it doesn't have any, um, major
differentiation from, you know,

one from one country to the other.

Uh, for example, we, uh, play with
most of the other competitors I

probably heard of, like Checkpoint,
Palo Alto Networks, 40 Nets.

Uh, you know, wherever we meet them.

The functionality wise, the
product are mostly the same.

Okay.

Uh, but in terms of, you know, company
strategy, you know, there's always,

uh, Where do you wanna start setting?

Uh, where can you get,
you know, most acceptance?

And that's where we found,
you know, uh, that the China

was a better place to start.

Uh, we can get, you know, uh,
channels that, uh, more acceptable

to our products, uh, rather than
some of the other big players.

Um, you know, simply because, you know,
the, the, the market is less congested.

Um,

Kevin Horek: uh, interesting.

Okay.

So how has the technology evolved
in, you know, the 16 plus years

you guys have been around?

Tim Liu: Yeah, it has
evolved tremendously.

You know, first of all, I think,
uh, the security market all is

driven by, you know, several forces.

One of the forces, you know,
the technology development.

So with, uh, the appearance of, you know,
it development, it technology development

like cloud, uh, mobile devices, you know,
IOTs, you know, those new technology

also generates, uh, security needs.

Okay.

Okay.

Uh, so the other trend, uh,
other side of things is, you

know, development of security.

Itself.

For example, there's new threats
coming out that's like APTs nowadays.

It's ransomware.

Uh, so different kind of
threats also coming out.

So those two forces actually driving the
security, uh, technology development.

So we are, you know, very
closely following that.

Um, that's trends.

So for example, we have, um,
after we come up with this multi

core processor, uh, utm, we also.

Follow the cloud trends nowadays.

We have, um, you know, cloud security
products, uh, uh, to deal with iot stress.

We, we have, you know, um, functionalities
in our followers that actually help

identify iot devices and manage security
on iot devices, uh, things like that.

So, so all these different
trends, uh, different, the forces

actually driving the, you know,
technology development as well.

Kevin Horek: Got you.

Okay, so walk us through who's your ideal
customer and how do they actually leverage

your technology in their organization?

Tim Liu: Um, that's, uh, our, uh,
market segment are pretty broad.

You know, mostly we focus on,
uh, medium to large enterprises.

Uh, okay.

Small, not very low end, but
you know, small medium to,

up to very large enterprises.

So some of our, uh, you know,
biggest market segments are like

financials, uh, banks, um, uh,
educational instilled like univers.

, um, you know, governments, uh,
we have, you know, internet c.

um, you know, and mostly general
enterprise, you know, every enterprise

will actually need, have security needs
like firewalls, uh, you know, ipss.

So we actually help them
with those products.

And, uh, the other thing I would
want to say probably is our, like,

the way that we do our security,
uh, sort of our philosophy.

That's probably a different question.

Yeah.

Okay.

Kevin Horek: Do you want to, do
you want to elaborate on that?

Tim Liu: Um, So I think the,
one of the trend is that the

security getting fairly complex.

Sure.

Um, you know, you basically today the
enterprise, I have, uh, uh, getting

overwhelmed with all, all these threats.

Right?

You are trying to deal with, dealing
with, uh, you know, data leaks, trying

to deal with, uh, you know, ransomware.

Uh, so they keep buying different kind
of products, trying to plug codes.

Um, that's good to a certain
extent, but also making the.

You know, your network.

Very complex.

So, uh, there's, uh, a few things that
will help, uh, uh, enterprises do.

One is, uh, we have a methodology
called, uh, C Understand Act.

So the first part is C.

So we basically help
you see what's going on.

Uh, so our product have, uh,
you know, visibility building.

So we help you look at
what's inside your network.

You can see, you know,
who's using what applic.

, um, you can, um, you know, see the
stress, you know, asset coming.

Uh, you can see what are the high risk
assets versus low risk assets, and you

can concentrate on the high risk ones.

Um, so the second part is understand.

So we also collect some forensic
and evidence like, uh, you know,

packet captures, things like that.

So once you have a certain security
instant, you can come back.

You know, but they see what's
going on, what actually cause it.

Uh, the last part is, uh, act is
basically help you deal with, you

know, deal with the incident, either
by blocking, uh, certain IP or certain

sites or by, you know, throttling your
traffic so that you know people can.

Uh, download their, upload
their file fast enough.

Things like, things like that.

So, uh, things like, uh, methodology
that we follow that help you, uh,

deal with the, you know, sort of
the complex environment you have.

Kevin Horek: Okay.

Interesting.

So how do like, so like you, like my
team of people would get your software

and then kind of monitor and then.

Like, is there training involved or, or
how complicated or how much onboarding

is there to actually get this thing
set up and running, you know, at my

enterprise or my university or whatnot.

Tim Liu: Okay.

So actually the company has a,
a slew of different products.

Um, so let me just give maybe two example.

Uh, so why is the basic firewall, so it
used to be that the firewall is a black.

So you're putting the firewall inside
your network and, uh, configure a

few policies and forget about it.

But nowadays, you know what the
firewall can do is also let you

see what is going through it.

Right?

And what kind of
applications go through it.

Uh, you know, which IP or which user
is going through it, and what kind

of data are they generating or what
kind of traffic are they generating?

Are they uploading a, a lot of
files, uh, things like that.

So, uh, it can help you make decision,
uh, you know, what activity is, uh, is

suspicious on or illegal, uh, to, you
know, according to your company policy.

Uh, so that's the part where.

You know, the newer,
uh, uh, firewall can do.

Um, there's also another product
called the xdr, which is, uh, short

for extended, uh, detection response.

Uh, what, what it is, is actually, uh,
either device or software system that

actually collecting all the, uh, events
generated from all the other devices.

For example, you have.

Maybe 10 different devices
from 10 different vendors.

And it's actually hard to go into each
of them to look at what's going on.

So, uh, this, uh, product will get all
the information from those devices and

be able to give you a picture of, you
know, um, Maybe all this device, all these

security device will all collect security
information from a certain server.

And, uh, this collection, this XDR
can actually display a sort of a,

um, a summary picture of what is
going on in your network and be

able to point you to the hotspot,
so to speak, uh, in your network.

.
Kevin Horek: Got you.

Okay.

So how does this all play into,
obviously some people, uh, are

back in the office working, some
people are remote, a bit of both.

How does this all tie in?

Because that's adds a lot more complexity
for, from a security perspective when

kind of people are all over the map and
using company devices, their own devices

and kind of everything in between.

Tim Liu: That's a very good question.

So, uh, this part only talks about,
you know, the collection of the

information, but, uh, on the other
part of these stories, you have

to be able to touch all the new.

Endpoint, so to speak.

Uh, so we have products, we have endpoint
products that actually, uh, a small piece

of software will being install into, uh,
either your remote, uh, laptop or your,

uh, you know, IOT devices or your server.

Uh, some, maybe some
virtual machine on this.

Uh, on, on Amazon, uh, things like that.

So those, uh, small piece of software
will be able to collect information

and feedback into this bigger system.

So, uh, those are, we called sensor
endpoint sensors or network sensors

that actually collecting information.

Um, so, uh, they are, uh, definitely
an important piece of the puzzle.

Got

Kevin Horek: it.

Okay, so r obviously it probably
depends on company size and, and

what I'm looking to do, but is there
like a rough range of how quick I

could have something up and going?

Obviously if it's more software based can
be probably a lot quicker than if, if it's

a hardware software kind of combination,
or does it really depend on my needs?

Um,

Tim Liu: um, different
products probably is different.

So our firewalls is probably a dropping,
mostly dropping replacement for the

other, uh, network security devices.

So a firewall need a point in your,
probably on your perimeter, right?

Uh, so that deployment wise, probably,
uh, I would say probably a few hours.

Okay.

Uh, software.

, um, components.

Some, some software products.

Probably takes around, I would say
maybe a day because of all the, uh,

information you do need to collect
from different, different points.

So, uh, it's probably a, a
process where you need to prepare

your environment first, right?

So what do you want to see?

Uh, so what information do you
want to collect in this system?

And, uh, do some planning
first and then, uh, install the

software and do other collections.

The, the system itself can draw.

Draw itself.

Kevin Horek: Yeah.

Right.

And then I would assume that
you'd help with companies or

organizations with that if needed.

Yeah, of course.

Yeah.

Okay.

Fair enough.

So I'm curious, I, I think, obviously,
I think majority of people at this

point would say security is super
important to their organization

and arguably even personally.

But where, and I think a lot of people or
companies, Don't even know where to start.

Mm-hmm.

. So what's your best advice to a company
to kind of get going into the security

space and actually care about this stuff?

Because you mentioned earlier like
there's way more ransom attacks, people

are getting hacked more, and like,
it seems to be a lot more common.

Tim Liu: Mm-hmm.

, I think, uh, uh, from different
levels you'll probably hear

different things, uh, from the IT
people or from the security people.

Uh, of course those are, those
people are very, uh, educated.

Uh, but, uh, you probably can't
believe a lot of the employees.

Regular employees are, are probably
not so, uh, uh, knowledgeable

about, you know, hacking.

They probably know the risks, but they,
uh, they don't know the common practices.

For example, uh, you know, fishing is,
today is the, uh, largest, uh, probably

have, is the biggest risk to the.

To the, to corporation in terms of, you
know, how those new threats are coming in.

Uh, but uh, when you try to do a
fishing camping, uh, like, uh, you

know, try to test the, uh, company,
uh, there's still a large percentage

of, uh, A company employee Will, will
want to click, click on that email,

uh, even though it looks suspicious.

Uh, so I think first of all, I think
you, from a company point of view, you

need to, uh, educate your, uh, employee
constantly on, you know, what, what, what

is the latest, uh, New kind of, you know,
attacks, what, what to look for, uh, in

your daily, um, activity, you know, uh,
including emails, including, you know, uh,

some websites you probably, uh, you know,
visit, um, what to do and what not to do.

I think the training is, uh, probably,
uh, first and foremost, uh, the security.

Uh, part or security operation part, uh,
I would say, you know, follow the best

practices and some of the latest trend
is, uh, go beyond the layer defense

and, uh, try to, uh, focus on what,
what we call the post breach because

you know, a lot of effort has been, um,
uh, putting in, uh, defend the network.

But today because of.

, all these moving objects, moving
employees, uh, you know, uh,

mobile devices, there may be
threats already in your network.

So you have to be prepared to respond.

Uh, so put more emphasis on, you
know, uh, getting a more better

response plan, uh, to the attack.

Kevin Horek: Okay.

Interesting.

Is.

Some good simple things that companies
could, could do that you'd recommend.

Like it, it seems like a lot of
people just don't even know where

to, like start at a basic level.

Tim Liu: Mm-hmm.

. Mm-hmm.

. So maybe, uh, I'll say simplify.

You can say three things.

First is, uh, get your employees, uh,
well educated, you know, have some, uh,

seminar, uh, . Tell them, you know, what,
what are the common things to not do?

And second thing is, you
know, network hygiene.

You know, uh, uh, you know, install,
uh, do some best practice, install av,

uh, you know, don't allow extraneous,
uh, device onto your network, uh, you

know, have, um, basic network hygiene.

And third is have a
good, uh, response plan.

Uh, you know, what happens
if . ransom work regarding, so you

have, you have to good, have good
backup plans, uh, a good way of

dealing with common kind of attacks.

Kevin Horek: Got you.

Okay.

So I, I'm curious, how do you and
the team stay up on the trends?

Because this stuff is moving so fast and
we both know that actually implementing

some of these new features in, in
code, you know, can, can take a while.

So how do you know.

and, and stay kind of current and make
sure that what you guys are building is

actually, you know, kind of ahead or with,
with the community and what's happening.

Tim Liu: Um, so there are, uh, trends
and there are like, uh, new things.

So, uh, trend is like, you
know, um, for example, the.

Like the ai.

Uh, so that's a sort of a long,
long term, uh, trends that

you need to keep investing.

Uh, but there are also things that,
um, for example, new kind of malware,

uh, or maybe a new, new kind of
ransomware that, uh, probably can

fit into existing, uh, framework.

So, okay.

What we do, product development
is basically we develop, uh, uh, a

framework where we can deal with, uh,
sort of new, kind of the same thing.

So if you, if you have a new kind of
ransomware, can fit into the existing,

uh, ransomware def defense, uh, mechanism.

Uh, and, but we, on the long, long,
longer term, we'll keep developing

new frameworks to target, uh, emerging
ways of new ways of, uh, uh, attacks.

So , that's the sort of
the long term, short term.

Kevin Horek: Sure.

So how do you manage your product roadmap?

With kind of what you just outlined,
like there's new, you know, attacks and,

and whatnot compared to feature requests
that you're getting from your clients.

Cuz that's gotta be really

Tim Liu: challenging.

Oh, it is.

Uh, there's a lot of new things
that, uh, need to be, uh, developed.

Uh, and we try to balance,
uh, you know, balance.

, uh, bigger trends that, um, because
those are the things that are important

in the long run and also the short term,
uh, you know, customer requirements.

Yeah.

Kevin Horek: Right.

Okay.

And so how do, how do you work
then with a company ongoing?

Because.

You and I both know that, like
security's never really done right?

Mm-hmm.

, like it's an ongoing thing.

You're pushing updates and you're kind of
always trying to be ahead of it, right?

So how, like, walk me through,
I get onboarded with a company.

Like what is, what does my
infrastructure look like?

3, 6, 9, maybe 12 months
or couple years out?

Um, after using kind
of hillstone networks,

Tim Liu: Um, from a, a security
standpoint, uh, we do have some things

that we think the security, uh, technology
or security product is moving towards.

Okay.

And, uh, we will, uh, you know,
device, our product strategy

according to that, um, vision.

and uh, uh, for example, a few
years back, we think, you know,

the AI is going to pick up so that,
uh, we actually start putting AI

technology into the security products.

Uh, the same with like cloud technologies.

Um, you see the it, as I said, you know,
you see the, IT is pushing us forward.

Uh, it technology is pushing us forward.

The new kind of attacks
are pushing us forward.

So basically those are
sort of a driving forces.

So we, uh, we are not really, uh,
Uh, proactively doing new things,

but they were more react to the new
IT trends and the sort of trends.

Kevin Horek: Okay.

Can you give us some?

Yeah, no, totally makes sense.

Can you give us some examples
of how you've been leveraging

AI in the security space?

.
Tim Liu: Okay.

So I think the, uh, topic
of AI is a pretty big one.

Totally . So, uh, today if you talk
with security vendor, I think every,

each one of them will tell you
that they use AI in their products.

I think, uh, uh, it's very hard, I
think today for a customer to come

along and say, you know, uh, you
know, basically be able to tell which.

Vendors, AI is better
than some other vendor.

Uh, it's really to do the comparison
because, uh, there's no, uh, just like

two kids, uh, with kids you have like IQs
because they one is smarter than other.

And, uh, in, in.

Technology today.

I think there's no way, uh, no
easy way to tell that the IQ of

two different kind of systems.

Uh, so for us, uh, we start to
use, uh, AI technology about, uh,

you know, Eight, nine years ago.

So we, uh, there's a lot of, uh,
potential for, for, for all I

should say, in security space.

You are looking at all different
kind of data, a lot of data.

Uh, for example, you have user data,
you have people using applications,

you have all different kind of traffic.

You have different kind of threats.

So all those data, those are what AI
technology are good of, uh, good ways.

And, but how do you use the ai,
uh, It's still an ongoing, uh,

ongoing topic, ongoing research
for, uh, security vendors.

So we have been, uh, using
AI in, um, different areas.

For example, to be able to tell
whether, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh,

domain name is good or bad.

Uh, we can tell whether, uh, uh,
a new malware, whether it fits.

Specific, uh, behavior pattern
of existing family of malware.

Uh, not by exact match, but
look at the behaviors of them.

So there's the different, uh, engines that
we build that actually utilize AI to, um,

help, uh, help the, uh, security system
to, to detect new measures, also to, uh,

you know, make sure that things are going
according to, uh, where they should be.

Um, So I think it's a
ongoing, uh, development.

Uh, I think we're doing some, uh,
interesting things in terms of, uh, you

know, helping people, uh, U U U utilize
AI in, in the products that help people,

people, uh, really be more secure.

Yeah.

Kevin Horek: Got it.

Okay.

Interesting.

So where do you think the
security space goes from here?

Because obviously there's like
trends that come and go and.

You know, like there's blockchain
and Web 3.0 and arguably those are

just kind of buzzwords of things
that have, or iterations of things

that we've had this whole time.

Like where do you see, or do you have
any predictions of where the future

of this stuff is because mm-hmm.

it seems like the
internet was never really.

Built with security
necessarily in mind, right?

Like, and you know, Google and
them are saying they're gonna build

a better version and it kind of
goes somewhere and then nowhere.

And like, do you have any
predictions or thoughts on kind of

the future of the security space?

Mm-hmm.

,
Tim Liu: I think, you know, uh, again,
come back to my, you know, driving force.

Uh, so basically, There's
a few of the, uh, in the IT

trends that's pretty obvious.

Sure.

First of it is, uh, is cloud, right?

Yeah.

So, uh, cloud adoption is, uh,
is um, very widespread in us.

It's starting pick up in other
countries even so, uh, cloud security

is still kind of in the early stage.

Interesting.

The, the security model is different.

Uh, you know, on, on-prem.

Basically you buy your own
security and the, on the.

Uh, on the public cloud, for example,
you, you depend a large part on

am Amazon to help you, right?

So the, the model are shifting.

Uh, the other trend is, uh,
the, uh, mobile workforce.

So you have more distributed workforce
and people are, uh, everywhere.

and how do you deal with, uh, different
kind of devices, different kind of

user, uh, uh, maybe different kind of
security, um, state that they're in.

Some are maybe using their own computer,
some are using company computers.

What do you deal with that?

Um, and the third most important,
uh, I would say is the iot o And I

think, uh, we have been talking about,
uh, you know, industry, uh, systems.

We're talking about, you know,
this internet, uh, objects, uh, uh,

A lot during the last few years.

I think it's going to pick up in
the next few years, uh, when, you

know, the critical infrastructure and
security are becoming more important.

Sure.

No,

Kevin Horek: that makes sense.

Uh, from a personal side, is there simple
things or things that you recommend people

do, whether it's on their, you know,
laptops or desktops or, or kind of phones?

Tim Liu: Um, , I would say, you know,
for, for your, uh, safety, I think,

uh, you know, my basic suggestion is
first of all, you have to be aware, uh,

just like, uh, you know, most people
nowadays are probably aware of, uh,

you know, some phone scams, right?

But you have to have developed the same
kind of, uh, knowledge, uh, with like

the hacking, uh, some of the com common
hacking, uh uh, You know, mechanisms.

So, uh, uh, first be aware and avoid,
you know, some common mistakes.

Don't visit, uh, you know, websites that,
um, that are, uh, browser have flagging

as the, you know, power of malicious.

You know, uh, there are, uh, Already
software building to most of the

OS and help you identify that.

For example, Chrome will help you
identify, you know, uh, you know,

problematic, uh, websites, uh, you
know, windows come with antivirus.

So have, uh, so basic, uh, you
know, security, uh, installed

on your, uh, on your system.

And don't do, you know, don't do some
commonly, uh, uh, common mistakes.

Avoid common mistakes.

.
Kevin Horek: Okay, sure.

I, I'm curious then you hear like,
obviously, and I, I use VPNs all the

time, but how important do you think
it is to, you know, kind of always be

connected to A V P N, whether it's at
home or, obviously if you're out on

public wifi, you should probably do it.

Or like, if you have some advice
around that because, I'm curious to

get your thoughts as somebody in the
space, like how important is running

a V P N on my, you know, personal
machine when I'm at home and or outside

of the home at somewhere working at
a coffee shop or coworking space?

Tim Liu: Uh, if you're connected to
corporate, the workspace, I think

it's generally required that using
V P N, because if you don't use V

P N, all the traffic between you
and the corporate is, uh, can be

seen by any anybody on along the.

Okay.

Uh, by like the coffee shop
operator, things like that.

Uh, so in those circumstances, uh, VPs,
uh, definitely, uh, needed, uh, some

other, uh, usage for, for the VPA is
like an anonymizations, for example,

to be able to hide you from the server.

So in those circumstances, I would say
it really depend on your usage, whether

you want to be anonymized or not.

So, uh, I, I generally don't use, uh, V P
N for at least when I visit the US sites.

I don't use V VPN N to visit, uh, for
example, Amazon or any public sites.

Uh, I do use V VPN N to, to
access my company network.

Yeah.

.
Kevin Horek: Got you.

Okay.

Interesting.

That's, that's good perspective.

So I'm, I'm curious, we're, we're kind of
coming to the end, but I'm, I'm curious,

is there any other thoughts or advice that
you would like to give listeners in the

security space that are, that are looking,
you know, to maybe get their business

kind of more beefed up in security
because of what's happening right now?

Tim Liu: Uh, I would definitely
advise them to be more knowledgeable.

Just like, uh, you know, you have to be
aware of like the latest phone scams.

Uh, you have to be aware of the latest,
the internet scams as well, uh, and

just be vigilant and, uh, you know,
keep learning and, uh, you should

be able to avoid most of mistakes.

Kevin Horek: Okay.

No, that, I think that's
really good advice.

So how about we close the show with
mentioning where people can get more

information about yourself, Hillstone,
and any other links you wanna mention?

Uh, the

Tim Liu: company website is,
uh, www.hillstonenet.com.

Uh, there's a sl of information about the
company, uh, or products and et cetera.

um, like you guys are welcome to
send me any questions regarding to,

to my personal email, which is Tim
new, uh, the company, uh, domain.

Kevin Horek: Perfect, Tim.

Well, I really appreciate you taking the
time outta your day to be on the show,

and I look forward to keeping in touch
with you and have a good rest of your

Tim Liu: day.

Yeah, thank you Kevin.

Uh, thank you for having.

Kevin Horek: Thank you.

Okay.

Bye.

Okay, bye-bye.