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Build a Business Worth Buying brings you candid conversations with industry leaders, M&A experts, and successful founders. Learn advanced strategies to scale, optimize, and prepare your business for an acquisition—because building a business worth buying starts with smart decisions today.
Aaron Alpeter (00:35)
Today's guest is Dr. Liia Ramachandra. she's a scientist turned beauty entrepreneur who was born in Russia but raised in the Netherlands and trained extensively in pharmacy and analytical chemistry.
Today she is the founder and CEO of Epilynx by Dr. Liia, a skin care and cosmetics company formulated for people with sensitive skin, allergies, autoimmune conditions, and chronic dermatological challenges.
Our conversation had really focused on beauty as a case study to tackle deeper questions for founders building toward an exit. And really, when does scientific rigor actually matter in enterprise value? And what is simply marketing? Does it actually matter?
we explore the kinds of validation that actually carry weight in diligence, what really moves a multiple, and how founders think about allocating capital between science and execution.
Aaron Alpeter (01:16)
Liia. Thank you so much for being on the podcast.
Dr. Liia (01:19)
Thank you for having me, I'm excited to be here.
Aaron Alpeter (01:22)
Yeah, we met a couple of months ago at Beauty Connect and I was just so impressed with your background and your approach to science-backed beauty. And so I kind of want to start there. When founders talk, especially in beauty, about being science-backed, what does that actually mean?
Dr. Liia (01:39)
So it can mean a lot of different things and also it can mean nothing. It can mean just pure marketing ploy to say it's science backed because the ingredients I use are scientifically developed or there is some study 10 years ago that was done on the ingredient I use. I think what we would like to see and hear when I use science backed is that number one, I use my background
as a PharmD and a PhD in drug development on how I develop the drugs, right? one of the things that it is developed with a specific skin concern in mind, and it is developed in my case with high quality ingredients and without all the allergens that may trigger sensitivities in people with sensitive skin. Then...
Of course, we look at the ingredients and what does science show for the years on how they work. And there are also new ingredients that are always coming up, that are biotech derived with sometimes not even much science, but they are new ingredients that are proven
trials to do specific good things to the cells. And of course, if you take it a step higher,
are the clinical trials that are done with a specific product on 30,
subjects. But again, those clinical trials can be very subjective. Just to start there.
Aaron Alpeter (03:13)
Yeah, so it's not even the fact that they had clinical trials result of it being science backed. I I always come back to, and this is a true story, I met someone who on the label was saying, yeah, we use dihydrogen oxide. I'm like, dihydrogen oxide? You mean H2O? And they're like, yeah. And it was just like, you you're using water and you're calling it something scientific. And so you're right, there is this big gulf between.
claiming it's science-backed and being more of a marketing ploy versus it sounds like even doing scientific things and not actually having the science rigor. So how do you think about the, the bench line for a brand? If I'm building a business or I'm evaluating business, what do I look for to determine if this is actually science-backed or it's just more science fluff?
Dr. Liia (04:01)
So I think just to take a step back, if I was an investor or if I was an acquirer, I would not even look at whether it's science-backed, what did they do? I would really look at amount of people that are coming back and buying your product, right? Sometimes when you look at rhode, like Hailey Bieber brand that was acquired,
I mean, I don't know if there is much science back, it's makeup, but people love it. It feels great. They have now millions of people that buy it and come back and buy it again, right? So if I was an investor, that's the only numbers I would look. And if those numbers really work and the company revenue is great, the people are coming, they have a good margin and they're profitable.
then I will look, okay, what does differentiate this brand from others? And if we look at skincare brands, then I would say, okay, they claim all this ingredients or clinical trials. How are these studies done and what is really in there? And at the end, even if the study is done and it is very subjective,
If it works and people buy it and there's no toxic products in there, which I don't think in this day and age with moCRA brands will survive, will put on purpose any toxic products in there, then I think that's a great brand. So I think Science Backed is great to have. It's more like a foundation, like good ingredients, good science, good clinical trials, maybe even subjective.
It's really, think the measure is you selling your product once and no one buys it again? Or how often people are returning to buy your product and how much they love it and what are the real reviews are saying.
Aaron Alpeter (06:02)
Yeah, well, you're right. mean, you have to have that baseline fundamental acceptance from the consumer in order to say, yeah, we're going to out and buy this. But I feel like sometimes if you tie your brand to an ideal, you have to constantly be pushing that ideal. Otherwise, you end up being stale. for example, I always go back to sustainability. And I was close with the founders at Seventh Generation for a time, and they put a lot of effort into
starting that business around this idea of being more sustainable. And so they were the first ones to say, let's use recycled paper and paper towels. Let's do all of these things that would look to be table stakes today. And they've kind of struggled as of late because the rest of the market has caught up,
right? The rest of the market is default sustainable as well.
Dr. Liia (06:48)
Everyone
is doing it now, yes.
Aaron Alpeter (06:52)
Right, right. And so it's like, if that
was your edge, then you've either got to do one of two things. That's one, you've got to consistently pushing the boundary to be the most sustainable, which means that perhaps the business doesn't grow as big as it could because you're,
a little bit more expensive, you're doing things that haven't been done before, you're a real change maker, or you've got to find something else to matter. And so I'm just curious your thoughts here on these brands that stick into saying that we have a unique peptide or we have some sort of unique formulation or we're cutting edge science. Is there a risk there that, you from a branding perspective, if you don't continue to build on that, that you end up in a situation where everyone else is using that peptide or everyone else is using that
that formulation and so you don't become as special and then therefore that asset is more risky.
Dr. Liia (07:39)
when we launched, I only focused on being gluten-free skincare. Five years ago, gluten-free skincare, no one talked about it. Everyone is like, what is that? So I had a huge following of customers who had celiac disease where you can't even eat
trace of gluten. It's not negotiable. It's not a sensitivity. It's a disease. So that was great. But at a certain point now almost everyone is gluten-free. You couldn't just sustain that. So you need to constantly reassess, okay, who is my customer and what do they want? And what I found that our customers had a lot of allergies, had a lot of sensitive skin.
So I said, if that's on my customer, I need to reinvent and not just say gluten-free, gluten-free, let's eliminate all the allergens. Simple like soy and cinnamon and propylene glycol, things that you can still find in almost every skincare product. Recently this year we found that our audience has all this allergy-sensitive skin, but also it's women who are 35 plus.
They go into perimenopause, they grew with us. So I'm like, how do I not just give them a promise of clean skincare, but also give them a promise, you don't need to do this because nothing else works. You can take our skincare, but also it will give you that glow, right? So I think to your point, you need to have something strong, right? That like my audience can't use anything else but us because they have all the allergies.
But at a certain point there will be other ones that coming in. So how do I reinvent myself and not just focus on that message, but also give them really, really good skin and give them a promise of something more and grow with your audience through the transition that they are going through. So I completely agree with you. think when you look at the brand, even not in skincare, that focused mainly on giving back or on
on sustainability, they always
rebranded to have a true loyal customer base.
Aaron Alpeter (09:52)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah,
it's a rebrand not because those things are no longer important, but because they're trying to find that differentiator that's there. I imagine just with your business and other businesses that you've advised that it can be pretty tempting, especially when you're prepping for an exit and you're two or three years out, that you cut back on R&D or you try to be, you harvest a little bit more cash to raise your EBIT multiple. I mean, do you have any advice for...
you know, how high should R&D be? If you've kind of staked this position as a brand that, we're going to constantly push the envelope, we wanna be allergen free completely, and so we've gotta come up and invent new things. Is there a threshold for how much one should be investing in R&D in order to be at healthy level?
Dr. Liia (10:43)
I there was, I don't have an answer to that. I always now say, if you're not profitable, you should not be investing in anything, but focus on the profitability. Because the time where grow, grow at any cost and be minus 5 million is done, right? So I feel like if this year you're breaking even, become profitable. And then...
then decide where are those dollars need to be invested. And if your formulas are working, I would say don't reinvent something new if people love those formulas and buy and they can be using them for years. when I look at my business, profitability is the key. And then of course, if you have a little bit money to play around,
Yes, you can reinvent invent a new formula if there is a need for it, or you can optimize the current one. But I think focusing on spreading the word and getting more customers to enjoy good products that you make is really the key.
Aaron Alpeter (11:53)
it makes a lot of sense if you're trying to protect profitability, you kind of pull back on that and invest less. Is there a maximum threshold that you think a company should be investing? mean, is it something where you take 90 % of your profits and you're pouring it back into R&D because you're looking to, I guess, what's that threshold that you'd look at and say, well, zero is probably not enough, but 95 % is too much.
Dr. Liia (12:17)
Definitely too much.
So I will give you an example. I spent my previous life in the medical part of the pharmaceutical industry. I was in R&D and I always said, if the product is great, it will sell itself, right? Until I became, I went to a more marketing side and I'm like, it doesn't matter if the product is the most amazing product, even for cancer patients, which is like they need it.
If there is no awareness and marketing behind it, you will never sell it. So now with even my scientific degrees, I say, okay, I would then maybe invest 5 % in the R&D. If you have 30 % that you want to invest somewhere, I would say 5 % R&D, 25 % marketing.
Aaron Alpeter (13:08)
Okay, that's a helpful framework. Could you just give us a bit of a crash course in terms of if I am looking to shore up my scientific credentials, what do need to do?
in order to make sure I have a strong clinical study basis? And are there any other things beyond just a traditional clinical study that I should be thinking about?
Dr. Liia (13:28)
So obviously there is a minimum requirement for the safety and stability, right? So you obviously have to do the repeated exposure testing. So you need to make sure that your product is stable, whether it's now in the winter in like minus temperature to really like 80 or hundred degrees. and of course you need to make sure there is no mold growing in there. So that's something that's non-negotiable and you have to do it.
But when you want to take it further and say, 99 % of people experienced enhanced moisture or glow or radiance, whatever claims you want to do, you don't necessarily need to educate yourself much on those claims. As long as you find appropriate
provider, that's reputable. That's not just like,
you know, you found someone on the street and they are doing your clinical trial, but somebody reputable and there are a couple in us, if you're looking in us that like, I know you can trust. So I would then talk with them and say, that's my budget. and these are the claims I want to make
And then they will be able to advise whether they do a subjective study where they give the
or to a person. And then they will say, yes, after three weeks, I see it's more hydrated. Or if you do...
a study where you look at if your skin tone is more even. So they will tell you, okay, it's 20 or 30 patients to be significant. We can do instruments or we can do subjective analysis. But please remember some people say, oh, it's a clinical study for a skincare product, like it was done with a medical product. That's nowhere near, right? So, and we talk about clinical study that would cost you between 30 to maybe 60, $70,000.
even skincare product in dermatology offices or FDA approved, then you're talking about 100, 200,000 to a million dollar studies, That's not the case usually in clinical trials done with the skincare.
over the counter OTC products. So basically that we just can sell and not FDA approved. So there is a big difference. just go to chat GPT and you can easily educate yourself. What is the clinical trial for skincare product? What claims should I make? And just find the right service provider that can do it. in the world of AI, we can educate ourselves a lot on that without even
having any scientific knowledge.
Aaron Alpeter (16:00)
Yeah, you know, I think as a consumer, it can be pretty intimidating to see all these claims to say, ⁓ you know, I should be using vitamin C or I should be using a peptide or hyaluronic acid or something, things like that. And it almost feels like you have to become a bit of an expert to understand what you're looking at on a product and if it's good or not. And so this idea of it being science-backed or clinically approved is a badge of honor. It is a marketing.
element that's there. What do you tell consumers that they should be thinking about in order to understand like, is this something that can trust or is it more pseudoscience?
Dr. Liia (16:36)
What I tell on maybe I'm not necessarily the standard here when we do our focus groups or when we do like TikTok lives or here I'm in LA, we do a lot of like skincare, educational parties where a lot of women get together and I answer questions. I always say, look at the ingredients, know, look at the ingredients, then of course look at the company. And now even without
scientific background, you can just put them in, know, like I said, ChatGPT Gemini, etc. And you can understand. My 11 year old son, just says, what are you using? He puts those ingredients in ChatGPT and says, is there anything toxic? Well, I'm not saying it's always right, because then I explain, well, that's not toxic, it's depending on concentration. Water is toxic when you drink a lot of it. But I always explain that a lot of claims like dermatologists tested
mean nothing, like zero, like nothing. Dermatologist's tested means like, ⁓ I looked at the product, I'm a derm, okay, good, you know. and I feel that a lot of consumers are still relying on those claims. If you have super sensitive skin,
and you see vitamin C dermatologist test at 20%, don't even touch it because 20 % is way too high if you have sensitive skin. It doesn't matter how many clinical trials they've done because usually it's not done on people with sensitive skin. It's done on people with normal skin. So it's really educating yourself about the ingredients. And I always say write to the manufacturer. If you have any allergies or if you have any specific question and they can't answer it, then...
then don't buy it.
Aaron Alpeter (18:21)
ChatGPT Is that like the best place for consumers to go to or it feels like there's got to be something else I could do, right?
Dr. Liia (18:29)
Yes, well there are a lot of apps like obviously environmental working group. There is a thing dirty, there is all these apps, but the problem with those apps and that's why I don't recommend them. They all kind of have their own angle and like environmental working group, maybe five years ago I said go there, now I say don't even go there because they almost don't rely on science.
It's like they see propylene glycol and like it's bad. They see some preservatives and they say like it's bad, know, or phenoxyethanol. They say it's bad. It's a bad product. It's rated bad. Don't buy it. But the reality is it's again, all dependent on concentration. No one puts any toxic products on purpose, not here in US, in your products. And,
Usually when you don't put preservatives, they'll be molding your products and bacteria growing. And if you put that on your face, that will be toxic for your face, right? And your skin. So I know that chat GPT and Gemini and perplexity is maybe not the answer, but what I found when I go to those sources of information that are constantly being updated and they pull from everywhere, they'll give you not the best, but better picture than going to all those
clean beauty
It's maybe quite controversial from what you'll hear, but that's what, from my scientific background, that's what I see.
Aaron Alpeter (19:59)
Yeah, and I know that you spent a lot of time in Europe. You grew up in the Netherlands. Is it different from a consumer mindset in Europe? I know there's a higher degree of rigor that needs to happen in order for somebody to be approved in the EU. Is that different than, say, a consumer that's looking for something in the United States?
Dr. Liia (20:17)
I mean, to be honest, I would say no. when you look at Europe and they say, two and a half thousand ingredients are prohibited in Europe. Well, some of those ingredients are asbestos, which you obviously will not be putting in your skincare. So it's not like apples and apples. And yes, regulatory environment is different. But when you look at them, brands that are very big in Europe.
To be honest, 90 % of the ingredients they're using, I would not be putting in my skincare.
Aaron Alpeter (20:52)
Really? Wow.
Dr. Liia (20:54)
Not because they are toxic, because it's all fillers to make it smell good. And I've used La Prairie for years until I couldn't. But it's really all the fillers and silicons that make it smell well and glide well. Myka that gives you that glow. So I would not say it's better. I was trained as a Dutch PharmD, Doctor of Pharmacy, and making the products, medicinal products like that.
And number one product we always use for medicinal skincare is petrolatum. If you say, and people like, it's petroleum jelly. I'm like, no, it's highly purified petroleum jelly. But in all honesty, still after many, many years, it's one of the best hydrating and occlusive ingredient you can have if you have super sensitive skin. So there's a lot of...
misconceptions and marketing and ingredients, know, like in Europe, like I said, we would use petrolatum everywhere. Here, people often come to me and say, but why are you using it still in your skincare? And I explain and want to explain, they understand. So it's really about the ingredients and concentrations that you are putting in there.
Aaron Alpeter (22:08)
Kind of what I'm hearing too is it's not easy to understand this stuff.
Dr. Liia (22:12)
That's true, but I do see now that the customer, at least my customer, I mean, she is extremely educated about ingredients and things that people ask me. And maybe they look up and maybe they've been around and traveled, but the questions sometimes I'm receiving, I'm like, wow, that's amazing that you know this or asking this question. And I encourage that because then
we can have a conversation why this product may be good for you and not this one.
Aaron Alpeter (22:48)
And it makes a lot of sense. We were kind of talking about regulatory there for a little bit. I want to go deeper there because you've grown up in the European regulatory market. You're obviously very well versed in the U.S. market as well. Can you talk to me about when you have an acquisition or large investment that's happening and they send in a medical professional to assess the business, what is it that they're looking for?
Dr. Liia (23:15)
I think from the medical perspective, I would be looking of course at the claims, you know. I think ingredients are important, the clinical trials, but that's almost already regulated. If the clinical trial was a good agency, like I said, it's done appropriately, you would assume. But you will be still surprised how many medical claims, even when it's a doctor founded brand, right? Or a derm founded brand.
or scientists found a brand, how many medical claims are still wrong? And FDA obviously doesn't have time go and inspect and give you fines, but you see claims with the words in there, heal or treat. And these are all claims you can never use in skincare products unless it is...
the appropriate clinical trials are done and it is registered with FDA and approved by FDA. So I would look at those claims as a medical professional for the brand I'll be
and then see how much of those claims contributed for people buying it. Like saying, for example, it will treat your hyperpigmentation on your skin. That's a no-no claim for...
Aaron Alpeter (24:23)
Yeah.
Dr. Liia (24:35)
a skincare product that's not been approved by the FDA.
Aaron Alpeter (24:40)
So what should they say instead?
Dr. Liia (24:43)
They should say may help reduce redness.
or like may help increase hydration. You should always use those kind of vague. That's why all these vague marketing claims are existing.
Aaron Alpeter (25:03)
Yeah, well, it's also interesting because if you are an astute consumer, you may find something that
will work on your pigmentation and you're like, oh, this is great. I know that this is a threshold. There must be something. So you just assume that they've been clear with the FDA But the reality is that they haven't come back and caught that yet. And so it's almost again, a catch 22 of can I believe what I'm seeing out there? And so it's just, I don't know, it's just a very interesting, very messy area.
Dr. Liia (25:33)
It is a very messy area and you're right, it's very hard. if a customer comes and they ask me like, I have this aging spot, will it help? I say, no, it will not. No skincare can really help like lighten that spot. You probably need to go to other cosmetic treatments, right? Go to your derm and see what they can do and just being honest about it. You can't say it will, take it away.
Of course, you can say it will help even your skin tone, you know, may help even your skin tone. And I think being honest about this, and that's why I'm saying when you see a customer buying a cream that helps them even their skin tone, and they come back and back and back and buy it, you assume it's working for them. It's doing something that they like that cream to be doing.
Aaron Alpeter (26:17)
Yeah, what if it's a situation where there's a piece of UGC and someone says, hey, I use this product and it helped lighten my skin, like it helped help these spots go away. And then the company decides to turn that into an ad and promote it. Is that okay? Because it's not them making the claim, but it's just them promoting a claim that they believe in that someone else said.
Dr. Liia (26:40)
So that's not okay. even if the creator, especially if you paid the money, they're making this claim, you have to say, have to take that claim away. If somebody bought your product and they're making this claim, obviously it's not you, but I as a company would comment that it is not intended to treat hyperpigmentation. Taking it and putting in an ad is absolutely no no.
that's a false medical claim and there are really like, I mean, I would think as a company you can be shut down.
Aaron Alpeter (27:14)
Yeah, wow, ⁓ that's remarkable. you spent a lot of your time in the regulatory space, in the science space, and now you have a brand, you've had your brand for a couple years now. When you think about advising other early stage brands, how should they think about their use of funds? In other words, you know, how much should they be investing in validating the product works?
and marketing and things like that versus focusing on consumer acquisition or distribution or other aspects like that.
Dr. Liia (27:45)
the new age of MoCRA, thank God, it's very different because before you could just like make a little concoction in your kitchen and launch as a product, right? Now it doesn't work anymore. So now we know that to launch a product, you have to do all these tests, possibly clinical trials. You don't need to, but you need to do stability testing and everything else.
So I would say in the early stages, 100 % of your funds need to go into R&D. It's really researching and developing the product and making sure it is doing what you saying it will do and making sure it is safe for people to put on their skin. of course, after you launch the product and you know the product is working, then...
I would put all the funds into making sure you tell the story, you acquire the customer, you do your marketing, you do your sales, you do a lot of outreach. And of course, once you see that people loving your product coming back or not loving it, then you need to understand why they are not loving it. Then again, you need to put some of those funds into changing your product or changing your formula. And...
And that's kind of a cycle you should be doing. But in the beginning it's a hundred percent. And that's why it's hard to find
anymore because it does require quite significant capital upfront to do a proper R&D.
Aaron Alpeter (29:15)
Or you're a chemist yourself and you're able to kind of vet those things out. But I guess even to them, if you're going to have a trial, it's more difficult.
Dr. Liia (29:23)
Yeah, yeah.
Aaron Alpeter (29:25)
You know, we've talked a lot about kind of science back, but I want to change the conversation a little bit and talk about scientific rigor,
What are some principles that you find most beauty brands maybe are a little bit lax on when it comes to being rigorous?
Dr. Liia (29:40)
think my answer would be different a year ago or two years ago before moCRA compared to now. most of the brands now I would say launching with that rigor
during COVID, we saw a lot of brands launched, right? And most of them were just making it in their, I would say kitchen counter, you know?
I would not know what scientific rigor they would be using. So that would be very hard for me to say. But now I think it's a very different story.
Aaron Alpeter (30:06)
it's not dissimilar from someone who buys food at a farmer's market. You kind of go into that and you expect it like, all right, yeah, this looks like it's fresh-baked bread. Probably didn't come from a commercial kitchen. Probably came from... ⁓
Dr. Liia (30:19)
Most likely not.
Aaron Alpeter (30:21)
came from someone's house. There's a threshold where you're okay with that. I think it's an element where you're able to meet the person, you look to say, do they have dirt on their fingernails, stuff like that. But then there's a threshold where it changes and you would not necessarily accept those same sort of standards if you were going into Walmart and purchasing bread. I'm curious to know,
What was the dividing line where they said, okay, I actually have to professionalize this because this is no longer a hobby, but it's an actual business.
Dr. Liia (30:53)
That's a great question. You know, that's, you're absolutely right. If you just launch on your website and you nowhere else to be found, then you can do whatever you want, right? Because no one will stop you. And then you can sell and ship until somebody says, ⁓ what is that? There is a mold in my skincare or whatever they say, which can happen also with big brands. Then with going into retailer,
especially such as Target, Walmart, Sephora, they have extremely, extremely stringent requirements. So you have to be professional. You have to have a contract manufacturer or your own facility with GMP, good manufacturing practice, good laboratory practice, FDA registered, not approved, but registered to be there. But in now day and age, TikTok shop.
Let's talk about TikTok shop, right? TikTok is here to stay and you'll say, okay, it's TikTok shop, who cares?
for us to launch on TikTok shop, I have to submit all my FDA registration of my facility, of my company, of each product that we wanted to launch on TikTok with its ingredient, with FDA registration.
Aaron Alpeter (31:56)
Wow.
Dr. Liia (32:09)
Letter, not approval because we're not in Derm offices but registration. So TikTok wouldn't even look at my product if I did not have all that registered and FDA reviewed the ingredients and didn't flag anything. And that's just TikTok shop. If you want to be on Amazon.
Amazon also has very significant and stringent requirements now. So you can't just be making it in your kitchen and hoping for the best. And that's why that's a good question when you say, how do know the brand did some testing? I would look at the TikTok shop, are they on Amazon? Are they on wholesale channels? Because you also have to have to put all that documentation in.
Aaron Alpeter (32:56)
Yeah, it's really interesting because I think in the absence of MoCRA, retailers really became the gatekeepers of quality, right? they didn't want to be associated with bad products or faulty products or things like that. And so you're right, like getting into a retailer, and it sounds like even with TikTok and Amazon is a huge threshold. It's a huge marker.
if they're only selling on Shopify maybe buyer beware but if you're seeing them in another channel then at least you know they probably don't have a separate SKU that is like worse than than the other stuff and so it's probably a good measuring stick to understand where they're where they're held.
Dr. Liia (33:30)
I agree, I agree, I agree. And you know, and some people say, ⁓ it's made in America, it's better. If it's made in China, it's not. And that's not necessarily truth anymore either, because when you look at even ingredients, like we make it here, but that's us. But there are also a lot of ⁓ brands that make it in China or Hong Kong or India. And when you look at the manufacturers there and
the documents they provide you about the ingredient testing, their product testing is very, is comprehensive. Maybe sometimes even more comprehensive than what you see here in US. So it's never like, it's made here is great. It's made in China. It's bad. That's not anymore the case.
often you'll see a cheaper product at Walmart that can be doing better work than the product at Nordstrom. The price, while before we thought, ⁓ it's expensive, it must be good, is completely not true in this day and age.
Aaron Alpeter (34:34)
man, that's interesting. Can you talk a little bit more about, you know, as a consumer, if I see something that is FDA ⁓ registered versus FDA approved, is that really just speaking to more safety or is there an efficacy claim in there as well?
Dr. Liia (34:48)
now with moCRA, every product you sell should be FDA registered. So that's basically the baseline that we didn't have before. Before it was optional, now it's not optional. FDA approved could be more safe, doesn't need to be. We just know that the studies to show efficacy and safety have been done for sure if it is FDA approved.
Aaron Alpeter (34:57)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Liia (35:16)
but it doesn't mean it will be more efficacious than product that is not FDA approved. And I know it's very vague and it's not helping anyone, but that just kind of the truth of that whole gray zone in skincare. It's not like medicines.
Aaron Alpeter (35:32)
Yeah, but at the same time it does feel that certainly in skincare and in some other aspects of personal care that we're kind of converging a little bit more into pharma, into more medicine. saw that there was a study from UCLA where there's like this hair loss serum that is supposed to be doing really well, it's some peptide thing, and they're like, yeah, you can't buy this, right? This is clinical trials only.
And I'm sure that that's probably because they're not gonna market it. They wanna keep track of it for a while. in what ways do you see personal care becoming more like medicine? And is that a good thing?
Dr. Liia (36:12)
It could be, but it doesn't need to be. there are some studies that I'm reading products are not on the market yet, but I'm following this one group. They have a great product. It's a cream that helps people who have cancer. They do a cancer treatments.
and the cream reduces the rash, cancer treatment associated rash. So they can continue with the cancer treatment. So that's huge, right? Because you stop your treatment, cancer is still there. You continue, you help the rash, you continue your treatment. That's a great product to put on your face because it will renew your collagen production. You'll like it's whole anti-aging, all this stuff that you want to have, which even though we don't talk about anti-aging anymore.
But the problem was that peptide or that molecule that if it's used all the time, not just for weeks, but like say two months, it is so strong it can trigger cancer response.
Aaron Alpeter (37:16)
goodness.
Dr. Liia (37:17)
So if it's not supervised. So that's again that line of, yeah, you can have a great molecule with great results, but if it's used not under specific supervision or not in specific cases, but you just decide to make a great cream of it and yeah, your face will glow.
How safe is it? Like when it's cancer treatment, you look at the benefit and risk, know, and the benefit is slightly higher, is more than a risk, know, FDA decides on that in the clinical trial, you use it. In skincare, we don't want any risky products, right? We want a safe product. Maybe it's not as effective as FDA approved product, but we also don't want it to be so effective that it may cause something else.
It's that balance that I would say ⁓ sometimes less is more and sometimes the older ingredients such as chluronic acid and glycerin are still the holy grail for me because we have so much data, have years and years of experience, we know what it does and we know it's safe to use.
Aaron Alpeter (38:31)
I hadn't thought about the dosage and the frequency of use could end up having really adverse effects. And so it definitely makes sense that when you purchase something at a CVS or a Walgreens or whatever, you're expecting it to not hurt you. And even if it says on the package, hey, use this once a week, you can't really trust that people are literate these days. And so it's like, all right, you're going to make sure you can manage for it.
Dr. Liia (38:47)
Yes!
Aaron Alpeter (38:57)
As you look at the industry and you kind of see the acquisitions that are happening, whether it be a Medik8 or a Rhode What is it that you see acquirers emphasizing today? Is it more around the unique chemistry, the unique science that they're placing a premium on? Or is it, like you said, back to the fundamentals of, are they growing quickly and are they profitable? And I'm just wondering kind of if you had to...
Think about where the pendulum was swinging today in terms of science back versus more lifestyle, where the market seems to be right now.
Dr. Liia (39:29)
So it's interesting, obviously this year will tell, we've been in such a bad few years in terms of investments and the companies and acquisitions, ⁓ but if we look at Rhode compared to Ordinary, right? Ordinary. So Rhode was, I mean, these are great products, obviously. It's makeup, it's great products, they work.
but it's also like virality of glowing skin, of Hailey Bieber being the lifestyle icon,
Like I feel with Rhode, they still launching new products. They have this holy grail products that everyone loves. And it's associated with Hailey Bieber, And a lot of people want that, to be her, the way she developed her line was science backed, was very scientific. She hired great chemists. They did a lot of research. So it's not just science backed.
and new ingredients, it's also all the marketing that goes in it, right? Ordinary, the ordinary, it was a lot of science and education, but it was simple ingredients, very understandable for everyone, with a trust and promise of very accessible skincare, right? And I think that resonates with understanding the science, understanding the one...
ingredient bottle and buying it for 10 dollars. You can't beat that. So they both had very unique
Aaron Alpeter (41:09)
one thing that's interesting about beauty and skincare in general is that it does feel like it's cyclical, where, especially when it comes to clean beauty versus science-backed.
And I think that in the mid 2010s, it was all about clean beauty and getting rid of things that were made in the lab and trying to use as raw ingredients as you could. And it feels that that moment has somewhat passed. It's still important, but we're now kind of.
moving back into this pendulum of, actually scientists are really good and you can figure these things out and it's okay if it's highly curated and stuff like
Dr. Liia (41:47)
Yeah, 100%. when I do my TikToks, I say natural is the worst. Like poison ivy is natural. Don't put it on your face. I know for people who have allergies, natural and not because it's bad for you. It's just natural oil can have 30 different molecules, 30 different ingredients that you just don't know which one can give you a rash or allergy or redness.
So now I see many companies, including us, we're moving more for synthetic and lab-made and even again, parallels with medicines. Most medicines, you saw something in nature that worked thousands years ago, but now you take that plant and you extract that one compound that really, really works and you purify it from other 99 that gave
that gave it bad rap. So you're absolutely right, moving to more precise skincare, precise ingredients, often lab-made, synthetically made, modified so it doesn't contain the things that can give you a rash or allergy or anything else. Even look at vitamin C, there are so many types of vitamin C.
Look at hyaluronic acid, short chain hyaluronic acid will sit on top of your skin and plump your skin and in the long will go inside the skin and really regenerate from within. So just putting hyaluronic acid on the label doesn't mean anything. Like you need to know what are you plumping, where is it working?
or do you have a mixture of all five of them? So you're absolutely right. And consumers are very educated. They ask me what type of vitamin C are you using? Give me the chemical formula, like molecular formula. Is it L-ascorbic? Is it this? Is it that? Same use of chlorine acid? what kind of molecular weight are you using? Is it low? Is it high? Et cetera. you're right. I think we are moving, we move to more.
science-backed and more synthetic, more lab-made and away from natural.
Aaron Alpeter (44:00)
there's kind of this common trend line that goes through where I think it comes back to, you continually innovating?
Because I think that the pushback of why Clean Beauty even came about was to say, look at all these fillers, look at all these things. I don't know what this chemical is. I've never picked that from a tree or a berry. And so I'm wondering how much of this is just the consumer be like, yeah, I don't know what hydrochloric acid is. Like it's acid, that sounds pretty bad. I don't want to put that on my skin. And just like, how much of it is the naivete of the consumer and people just saying, hey, here's something that's new versus it's just this element of
know, continually pushing yourself and changing and having like a core formulation or core thesis that sits there and you just change how you talk about it depending on how the market shifts.
Dr. Liia (44:46)
Well, I think with the rise of social media and many beauty influencers who sometimes say the right things, sometimes say absolute craziness and people listen to it.
the education became a key and people are much more educated because I look at my 11 year old son who like he has 30,000 followers on TikTok and he gets some products as influencer. And first thing he does, he puts the ingredient list in chat GPT and says, is it toxic? What are ingredients I should not be using? Ian is 11 year old and he comes to me and says, mom, there is phenoxyethanol. I'm like, that's okay. It's a small concentration. Chat GPT says it's bad.
Right? Immediately. But depending on what concentration. So I think with the rise of social media, we are not anymore, even three years ago, where there was not so much awareness, you know,
you can go on TikTok, you can just ask a question and there'll be hundreds of videos saying one thing or another thing. And as a consumer, then you do your own research and then go to the brand and ask that question. Like, is that the product that is good for me?
It's a very different world now.
Aaron Alpeter (46:05)
Yeah, you said your 11 year old has 30,000 followers on TikTok? Wow, okay, we'll make sure he posts and shares this episode. This is great. ⁓
Dr. Liia (46:08)
I know, crazy!
Yeah. I
will.
Aaron Alpeter (46:17)
Liia, this has been a fantastic episode. If people want to learn more about you or skin care in general, where would you recommend they go?
Dr. Liia (46:29)
Well, if they wanna learn about me,
If you type Dr. Liia you'll see the brand is EpiLynx by Dr. Liia. So we do a lot of education mainly on YouTube, TikTok and Instagram. ⁓ I think skincare in general, it's depending of your interest. Like I said, you can go on Gemini and Google, you can go on Reddit, which also there's a lot of craziness there.
You can go on chat GPT, but I also think you can also read scientific studies, but that can be more complicated to understand. But really kind of taking it all in and understanding number one, what is good for me, you know, because what is good for my skin will be very different. What is good for your skin or what is good for my skin today is very different than what was good for my skin a year ago, because
like I as a woman go through hormonal changes, I go through environmental changes, pollution, this, that. So something that you've used a year ago may not be good for you now. And that's what I see people coming and saying, I use it my whole life and now I can't. Well, your skin may be like synthesized for it. So I think always look, okay, where I am in my journey, in my life, am I 11 year old or am I, you know.
80 year old or 90 year old and what works for me. And I think that's one of the most important thing, understanding what's your skin like and what's your mood like and what do I want for my skin.
Aaron Alpeter (48:10)
Thank you so much for being on the podcast and thank you everybody for tuning into this episode of Build a Business Worth Buying.
Dr. Liia (48:17)
Thank you.