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Scottish politics dissected from a left, pro-independence stance. Each week, award-winning broadcaster and journalist, Lesley Riddoch chews over the week’s news with co-host Fraser Thompson. If you like intelligent, quirky chat about Scottish society and culture, and Scottish, UK and international politics analysed from a Scottish perspective; this podcast is for you.
Fraser (00:01)
Well, hi folks, and welcome to this week's Leslie Rennick podcast. I'm still on the Duff mic, ⁓ hoping for a new one to wing its way to me at some future point. And thanks to all of the ⁓ pals and chums subscribers that are helping make that possible. ⁓ it's been a big week with obviously SMP.
Les (00:21)
Have you looked round all your neighbour's doorsteps yet?
Fraser (00:24)
Ha ha well it was going to be absolutely guaranteed next day delivery for Saturday. Then on Saturday it was like, yes, out for delivery, out for delivery. No, sorry, I'm not doing that anymore. ⁓ and then got in touch with the chat support, which of course is a nightmare to actually be able to find on Amazon. gosh, terribly sorry about that. Let's give you twenty quid compensation and ⁓ definitely, definitely reach you by tomorrow. Tomorrow, out for delivery, out for delivery, out for delivery. no, there's been a problem.
We're back on again. Yeah, we don't know about that. We couldn't possibly give you compensation until it had arrived. ⁓ so it may come today, it may not come at all. Who could say? It's the the the joys.
Les (01:00)
Yes. But anyway, and and actually folks who are sort of saying, Hang on a minute, this isn't Tuesday again. That's very true actually. gosh, I can't even remember. Why are we doing today?
Fraser (01:06)
huh.
well principally I'm going back to Newcastle tomorrow to collect ⁓ the the little Thompsons, having ⁓ taken them to Newcastle last week so that they could all go on holiday without me for the October break. Lucky little swines. Not that we're jealous, you understand.
Les (01:28)
yes, I remember this is the one where they're lounging around sort of areas where you would be hyperactive and wanting to go and look at cultural important things. So anyway.
Fraser (01:38)
I'd have coped to be honest, but there we are. I would have given it a good try. ⁓ but that is how it is. It is certainly getting quite chilly here. We've had frosts, which almost made me want to start with the my usual public service announcement.
Les (01:51)
Hey, so so I'm glad you're sitting down. I went swimming yesterday in a loch. ⁓ actually, it's just such a weird one. There's a last that comes as a neighbor now. And it's funny seeing somebody who's like a normal person ⁓ looking at it, getting into it, and you know, almost running back out again. But the two of us, old hands, are in there, and it just keeps people it's you just need to stay in for a minute, and you need to have neoprene gloves and feet. Now I know you're just alright switched off and think you're mad.
Fraser (02:21)
Yes.
Les (02:21)
I'm not talking to men because for some reason you don't do it. But women, it's possible, right? And this isn't a good time of year to start right enough. You know, it's it is a bit colder, it was eight degrees the water. But my God, it was fabulous. And you see, afterwards, you you never get a more benign feeling in life for the whole day actually than you have after a swim. So anyway, that was after a fairly hectic couple of days at the SNP conference.
Fraser (02:44)
Go.
You were in all the way to Aberdeen to see the SMP conference. So how what was the vibe, first of all? 'Cause obviously there was lots of attempts by the media to say that there were the usual splits and what have you, and lots of people, and myself included, are not obviously very enamoured with the the current directions of things. So how did it feel with those people who are still going to SMP conference?
Les (03:13)
Well, I've got to say it was perkier than a conferen any conference I've been at for probably about the last five years. Now that's on highly selective moments of attendance, you'd have to say. ⁓ I mean, it started off with the the motion by the young Scots for independence, which was kind of y you know, thought to be too weak by the independence grouping, where I also found myself speaking. ⁓ but my
God, there is nothing like seeing a whole huen of young folk trippin' up to the to the microphone, all of them, you know, somebody sort of said, Yeah, I was only seven when the Indy Ref happened, and each one, it was like a four Yorkshire competition, look it up, people, ⁓ because the you know it kept getting younger and younger till the last who came up, Erin, I think, who was the proposer of the motion, she had been four. ⁓ and she said she remembered it and everyone went, yeah, right, you know.
Fraser (03:54)
Ha ha ha.
Les (04:08)
But the the point was if you if you ever needed a sort of embodiment of the argument that a generation has passed, there they are. They were articulate, funny, confident, ⁓ and there was loads and loads of young people. And it was just an amazing moment. It actually made me think I'd watched the tail ⁓ debate night, a bit of the tail end of it from Aberdeen, I think the on Wednesday of last week or whatever, and was again really struck by when the independence question came up.
There was a whole load of young people sitting at the back ⁓ who kind of piped up and they were not letting go on this one. ⁓ this this theme of young people basically beginning to kind of really voice up kept sort of weaving its way through the whole conference actually. ⁓ and so that was that was really that was a really good start. If I had been choreographing a conference, I would have th I would have thought of that. But would you have thought of putting them on and and having
an absolute full house, which there was despite all the catty stuff that is posted by other newspapers. would you have put them on at eleven you know, eleven at ten fifty AM on a Thursday? I mean, it was unbelievable how many people had pitched up then because normally there isn't that many people. So that was, you'd have to say, pretty good. ⁓ I can't remember where I drifted off to do something or whatever and then came back again. ⁓
Fraser (05:19)
Yeah.
Les (05:35)
And then Dave Dugan had his sort of address as leader of the Westminster group. And ⁓ you know, I I sort of was a bit, well, okay, right, let's see what this is, but I've got to say, almost 10 out of 10 as a speech, it was pretty impressive. I mean, in that, I can remember bits of it now. ⁓ but he was funny. I mean, he had a bit of a dig at Stephen Flynn when he says, I people keep saying to me he's big, big big shoes to fill. And he says, That's true. But he says, I'll tell you something.
I've got my own head of hair. So that, of course, and Stephen Flynn was sitting on the platform. So it's just like weed jibes and everything. Another thing, which was a cleverly woven in thing, where he was saying, ⁓ here's something you can say to taxi drivers, because you know, they're never particularly fond of politicians, they're not really very fond of SNP politicians. But the next time you get one and they start acting up, you can say to them, Do you know something? The leader of the Westminster SNP group was a taxi driver. So everyone went, Hmm, right.
and then he had a kind of quite successful ⁓ bat bash in about Andy Burnham, where we will obviously go at some point since he decided to intervene. and said, ⁓ aye, Andy Burnham says ⁓ Britain is broken. Agreed. Andy Burnham says ⁓ you know, privatization, deregulation, all this stuff has destroyed, you know, the fabric of Britain. Agreed. But he's got a ten year plan to fix it. No way. And it's
Very effective because it just it that kind of picked up again and again in his speech. It's the ten years and I mean, people were coming out of the conference in that session saying, you know, even Stalin only had five year plans. You know, it's true enough, isn't it? So it was I mean, p and people, I mean, around me were sort of going, 'cause they hadn't really heard him speak particularly, you know, but they were all going, My God, you know. So
In that there was fresh faces all round, because I don't think people had seen Dave speak in any particular capacity before at all. And then all these young ones. ⁓ that did, you know, for the first day, that was kind of, you know, fairly, fairly perky. ⁓ and the perks sort of stayed up despite you know, that then I was involved in two fringe meetings, which were about these local government proposals, which we'll probably we'll get we'll come to after we've finished the vibe. and
That's difficult because lots of people are slowly going, hang on a minute, what is this? You know? And there's a lot of disquiet amongst particular groups that they ⁓ just haven't been consult can't find a way to engage with the government. ⁓ but on the floor of conference, there was still a fair amount of perk. ⁓ and then at the end there's two things I suppose. One is obviously John Swinney's speech. I mean, you were you were you watching that as well?
Fraser (08:21)
Yeah, I mean I've watched that and Phil. I mean again, I suppose harking back ⁓ to what you're saying earlier, a bit of an opportunity to to talk about youth, he talked about his son, and that was kind of one of the more emotive or ⁓ impressive parts of the the speech. Overall, it didn't I mean we we talked about the the previous episode, you know, will this speech match, you know, Andy Burnham and and what will the the first minister and what will the SNP do to kind of
go toe to toe with this ⁓ more florid rhetoric. ⁓ obviously there's the announcement an a Andy Burnham level of detail, you might argue, ⁓ about bus ⁓ regulation or reversing bus deregulation, not necessarily taking buses back into public ownership. ⁓ but a bit scant, I think, or perhaps a little bit lackluster, am I being uncharitable? I mean as obviously the bit about Daniel was was
Les (09:17)
No, no it
Fraser (09:19)
you know, emotive and you kinda think, gosh, there's a there's a three D person in John Swinney, ⁓ which people who know him would would know, ⁓ but doesn't necessarily come across in speeches sometimes and it it kind of took a bit of time to get going.
Les (09:32)
Yeah, I think that that is fair enough actually. ⁓ and the other thing, I mean some somebody did tweet this, but as I was watching it, I I wondered what had actually happened because he sort of stopped. He was talking about the emotional motivation for independence is my youngest son, Matthew, who's in the audience. And then he just stopped. And it looked like a bit of a choked up moment like Andy Burnham had.
So I don't know if he did have a bit of a moment and actually it even was because he stopped the auto cue jumped or whatever. And then I mean, so the so there was standing ovation. I mean, people were up and down like Zebedee again, folks, Google. and and that got quite a long standing ovation. you just sort of support him to keep going kind of thing. And I've got to say t fair play, because that must be fairly panicky if you're used to having that auto cue in front of you and you can look either way.
to actually discover it's down and you're on your own and have you got your glasses on and can you see the speech? You know. So I mean f you know, but it was a bit there was it's a it's an odd one because he you know he was he was I thought he was warming up to a pretty another pretty emotional height. I would certainly have done a lot with it. where he was talking about the other Celtic nations. Our languages have been suppressed, our cultures have been derided, you know, all this sort of stuff and you're going, Yeah, you know, come on. 'Cause you're
When you get onto cultural stuff like that, you're definitely onto firm ground. We've been told we're not good enough. And then he, you know, instead of kind of moving further into that terrain, which I thought was pretty useful one, ⁓ he says, you know, but clearly we're good enough. He thought, come on, you know, there's more to say there. ⁓
Fraser (11:12)
We we are moderately average, that would be fine, you know.
Les (11:15)
But he's got, you know, he'd got this remodelling this independence is not about walking away, but walking beside one another. And I mean, it wasn't delivered tremendously powerfully, but I heard lots of different ministers with the same sort of ⁓ tilt to it now, which is reconceiving the United Kingdom as a union of equals, where you don't have one you know, n nation basically telling you what to do. And I mean that's obviously true, but it's not the way it's been sort of sold before. And I thought that was probably
I would have again spent a lot, lot longer on that because that's quite a sort of useful, you know, sort of framing of things. ⁓ but there was I mean there was actually other things that were that were kind of pretty significant. I mean, one was there was there was a ⁓ there was a motion passed basically about investigating a a Scottish land tax. ⁓ and I mean some people, Hannah Mary Goodlad from Shetland was was ⁓ fronting that one up.
And she did a very
Fraser (12:15)
Well, let's just get this just straight for a second 'cause I was gonna jump in to say that. It's a Hannah Mary Goodlad and Jenny Gilruth. So the deputy first minister for Scotland is on this motion. So I mean I was kind of expecting some prelude to that, ⁓ in the leader speech. And that is why conference we're going to ba ba ba ba ba and this is what we're doing about local government reform and here's some of the detail and doof. ⁓ you know, and we're not just a government of announcements. So
Les (12:26)
Yes.
Fraser (12:43)
Sorry to interrupt the the latter form, but I mean that seemed quite frisky and it's the first time that we've seen government ministers take forward motions like that. There's been plenty of ⁓ similar motions at conference, but this was quite a a sea change.
Les (13:00)
Well, there's something definitely happening with this combo of Hannah Mary Goodlad and Jenny Gilruth, because they do sort of pop up everywhere. They're all I don't know, you know, I I when I was wheeled in to see the ministers, it was those two and Ivan McKee. But this true actually, you know, to to see the two of them and this is what I mean, I guess a lot of people in the room would just think, here we go again, promises of a land tax, yeah, yeah, yeah.
We actually, as Chris Hanlon, who's, you know, the permanent critic, but Chris, it's a useful function, ⁓ popped up, I think, to say, you know, we've got one already. I mean, we passed this three years ago. I think he did say that. ⁓ he also ⁓ s ⁓ had a bit of a laugh where he said, Hannah Mary, good lad is the answer to my dreams, which and he said, She will transform Scotland. I mean it's interesting that 'cause he's quite a tough, you know, person to persuade.
Fraser (13:49)
Ha ha ha.
Yeah.
Les (13:59)
And there is this feeling of just somebody, I mean, this is the next bit of newness that's kind of walked in stage left. ⁓ I know I'm skipping around a bit, but in one of her earlier contributions, ⁓ when there was a wee panel going, ⁓ she had basically given a number of things that she was, you know, up for. And one of it was, you know, from her business her background in business, was risk taking. And she did give this really sort of memorable example.
Where she said, ⁓ I mean, this might seem unfortunate to people who don't like oil and gas, but nonetheless, this is back in the day with Equinor when she worked for them in Norway. And she said, you know, as a geologist, if there was something like a 30% chance of of striking oil, I wouldn't hesitate to say, Yep, that's worth doing. And she said, Well, I thought of standing in Shetland, we had about a 30% chance of success at the start. And so I thought, yeah, let's risk the whole thing. Let's do it. And that
sort of, you know, she's so she's basically that thing about taking risks, that sort of ⁓ really that got quite an applause at the time. And it looks like she's driving that all the way through because they are taking a risk with this. The risk is that they're going faster than any process of explaining to people what the heck they're on about. But on the land thing, just to say, ⁓ you know, her her line when she spoke up, I she she said all the stuff that you go, yeah, yeah, we all know that, but she
She's saying land ownership's getting more concentrated, it's all going the wrong direction. She she listed the groups who've been active from Community Land Scotland, although not, I think, to the irritation of SNP activists, those who had pushed forward similar motions in the past three years. ⁓ and she'd basically said, you know, independence is an economic case. And this is about bringing a new proportionate revenue stream in, which again's a different, you know, way of looking at it. ⁓ so ⁓
So she was saying there's barriers, there's a a big day there's a big barrier which is put forward in an end an amendment by Ron Dickinson from Glasgow and ⁓ and Rob Gibson, who is the veteran land reform campaigner who helped set up Scottish Land Commission. And these two guys said, Yeah, this is all fine, but what we've got here before, the big problem about a land tax is that we haven't got data. We haven't got guy the the the the companies aren't registered.
And indeed Ron Dickinson said, you know, there's so many shell companies, tax havens and so on, sixty percent are not registered. And do you know what the fine is? Five thousand pounds. Whoop, whoop. So it's nothing, right? So ⁓ it also he was quoting evidence done by the ferret that grants had been overclaimed by a lot of these companies, you know, so they're cute and they get in and they get grants for whatever forestry or you know.
Fraser (16:35)
Just pay that every year, it's not a problem.
Les (16:51)
great green layered and all that lark. And he was basically saying this needs to be fixed first. We need to get compliance and enforcement. And that does mean staffing, because I think they've got, you know, the the if it's the land commission that enforces it, they got next to nobody and higher fines. and that the whole thing could be financed by not paying out these dodgy grants. So that was kind of an interesting point. ⁓
And equally, you know, Rob Gibson had said, Look, we've been preparing for a land tax since twenty seventeen at this conference, and the Scottish Land Commission has already done the work, has studied other systems, and it says it's pretty sure that within the devolved powers, and this is a important point because there's you know, th the the ministers were sort of implying there was still a problem with permission needed from Westminster.
Fraser (17:41)
has been suggestion, yeah, for creating a new tax rather than varying it or moving it around.
Les (17:44)
So ⁓ anyway, he's saying that the Scottish Land Commission have its their report says that it can be done within devolved powers within five years. So ⁓ at the end of it, however, the the real bit where everybody suddenly came alive was he was coming back to this thing about the landowners not registering as it is. And he says, I'll tell you how we could do this. There could be a compulsory purchase of land for those landowners who don't register. Suddenly everything went, Whoa, yeah, you know.
So ⁓ so anyway, ⁓ the ministers, Hannah Mary Goodlad, accepted that amendment. Not that is just by the byte not saying compulsory purchase of land for those who don't register, but that was saying basically we've got to woof up the the you know the enforcement, otherwise we we haven't got a register to act as a tax base. so that got accepted, and I think everybody went, right, okay, that was pretty good then.
Fraser (18:44)
I've always said there's a whole host of ways in which you could do that. And ⁓ so there's the the compliance with the land register. ⁓ there was also ⁓ determination to make people be ⁓ that the land should be owned by Scottish registered companies, but that couldn't be enforced because ⁓ that that was ⁓ a reserve matter. And in previous iterations of the the the Land Act, there was
attempts to get people to confirm beneficial ownership before we had this land register. If you had a land tax, of course, you could just say if you're on the land register, your land tax is whatever it is, one percent, two percent. ⁓ and if you're not on the land register, you don't benefit from the land register discount, and therefore your land tax is, you know, 356% ⁓ or whatever. ⁓ and then just tax people in land. You know, so yeah
Council A has not received your land tax this year, therefore we are just annexing five percent and we're another five percent and another five percent until you know you're gone.
Les (19:46)
But but the some of the but some of the problem with that is still the effort it needs to enforce that for even if it was at council level. Because for example, there is a compulsory right to purchase, as people will know that councils have, they hardly ever use because it takes stuff onto their books that they then are required to try to flog. So that's why there was meant to be a compulsory sale order put through. And that's been supposedly coming for the last six years, because that would just let the council come in and say, Hey you
Fraser (19:53)
yeah.
Les (20:15)
This has been dilapidated too long. You've got to sell it. Whack. There's the compulsory sale order. All they had to do, I think there's general agreement, especially, you know, from everybody but the Tories and Reform. They could have had that through. So they haven't. And that's that was supposed to be to also take the weight off councils who haven't got the staff to do hee-haw. Never mind ⁓ you know, try to administer anything complicated. So it's good that we're here because this discussion is about.
isn't we're way past now the principle of it, which is good. ⁓ but it is exactly how to enact it. And the fact there were two ministers up there, it did take, you know, it did take the stun out of a lot of the criticism that could otherwise have been bubbling up. And yet, ⁓ you know, if there's any Bloomin backsliding on this and nothing happens and blah de blah de blah, that that will just you know, I mean that's like a new generation, same as the the last
Y th they've got to deliver now.
Fraser (21:16)
I was about to say there wait till you see the the structure that gets brought up next year if it doesn't happen. So we'll watch this face Yeah. Well th the minor mumberings.
Les (21:21)
Well, you'd you'd like to think so, but I I'm I still ⁓ find myself astonished at how ⁓ unable to get angry in an organized way SNP delegates have. just before we go to the that meeting, can I just say there's there's one other debate well, there's loads of debates that were actually quite interesting, but there was the one about Twitter. Did you spot that one?
Fraser (21:45)
Yes, I mean I I do find it a little bit difficult to get overly exercised about this. Yes, Elon Musk's a horror Twitter's assessment. ⁓ I don't think that the Scottish Government or the Scottish National Party broadcasting stuff on Twitter, because it is a pushing out on Twitter rather than interacting or being part of or what have you, ⁓ is the worst thing in the world. And I don't necessarily see that
the actions of those two that we might have control over is propping up the rest of the Twitter ecosystem. And I think if you're ⁓ wanting to put your message out to people, you don't say and of course we never take interviews with the Times 'cause we think they're nasty, or we don't say we don't put stuff out in Twitter 'cause it's just full of evil people. ⁓ it might well be, but it doesn't actually cost you anything to fire up stuff onto it. And so I find getting off late
Exercised about these things just a bit of a waste of time, but I'm happy to be proven wrong.
Les (22:48)
Well it was it wa it was a it was an again it was a pretty because that that was that's my general approach, although I agonise about it. but again it was the young ones that were sort of leading this. and ⁓ you know that they're they're they'd they'd stu they'd gone through stuff like Grok, despite all the farrows about it, is still creating sexualized images of kids. ⁓ there was a report, Social Market Foundation found that four fifths of all searches contained misinformation.
A quarter of news posts were wrong. ⁓ and a third of posts were about anti-immigrant sort of stuff, which tended to increase around elections. Now that's the social market foundation, not a notable hotbed of lefties. ⁓ some research had been done on people ⁓ that was published in the magazine Nature, which found that exposure to X over weeks, you know, I don't know how much exposure you need, increases support for Russia.
And pulls down support for Ukraine. And the the Telegraph had ⁓ I think it's widely known now that Elon Musk personally requested slowing down Ukraine's access to Starlink. ⁓ now I mean today there's ⁓ we know there's been all sorts of stuff going on with Trump. ⁓ now suspending sanctions two days away from when they were due to be posted against Russia after doing this deal to get their diesel so that he can stave off disaster in the midterm elections. I mean
It's just the pits. ⁓ but apparently he has committed that Starlink will still be usable by Ukraine, despite the fact I mean, you know, he's just about cut Ukraine loose. So there's all of that going into it. And you know, their case was X is not Twitter. It's become less free marketplace and more robber barren. And I thought, God, these are all strong arguments actually. And the other thing she's saying, 'cause you some
Fraser (24:41)
Ha ha.
Les (24:45)
She says, if you keep posting on X, then you're requiring everybody to stay there. So the argument that everybody is there, you know, it's one reason that you've got to stay. And she said, We wouldn't join Truth Social, would we? And I thought, God, these are really strong arguments, actually. And you know, there was quite there was a lassie there ⁓ who is from the United States, she lives in Ellen now, and she was saying, you know, I've seen it firsthand what happens when speech is bought. And he thought, God almighty.
Fraser (25:00)
Ha ha ha.
Les (25:12)
But then there's somebody else that got up and did actually point out just she said, you know, he said the numbers speak for themselves. ⁓ y you know, there's just ten point four million users, was it, on Twitter? Fifty no, ten point four on Blue Sky, five hundred and fifty-one million on X. And he's saying if you wanna, you know, until Blue Sky's grown, we have to stay. And politics is persuading people who don't agree with us. Now that was interesting because if you now look on
social media, the unionists have all woken up. And to be fair, quite a lot of SNP supporters as well, actually, and independent supporters. And they're interpreting this vote, which went through almost unanimously actually, in the wake of that speech particularly, th they're s they're casting it as the SNP can't take criticism. You know, so it's it's you kind of think criticism? I mean
I I never look on, you know, I cannot look on responses to to my stuff because a lot of it is just grotesque. ⁓ so you know, it it's not just that it's just criticism like, you know, and then yet some of it is. ⁓ and it's for sure if you go across to platforms like Blue Sky, there is a only a tiny, tiny number of of sub you know, followers there. So I spent a couple you know, since that vote, I've been going, God, maybe I should just come off Twitter.
Mm, I don't know if anybody's got any views, just throw them in. But at the moment, actually s particularly looking at the response from independent supporters to that, where they're now having to gonna have to chase across platforms ⁓ you know, ⁓ news or stuff. And particularly it also applies to public services. Excuse me. So that ⁓ CalMac, for example, ⁓ there's a lot of route. I mean, by people I think who never use CalMac. You know, it there's kind of union as opposed to
I any anyway, that's let's not get into presumption. But anyway, if there is a problem with any public transport, I I regularly use it for the Tay Road Bridge, which is a thing. The quickest way to discover whether you're just going to sit in a queue to get over or anything's running is just to look at the Twitter account. Now, it's true that I just haven't looked to see if they're posting on Blue Sky. Maybe they are. So it's but it's that level of just people have got used to a place to go for the
transport stuff they need particularly because all the other you know all the other stuff ⁓ can often be a lot slower to pick up. So I don't know.
Fraser (27:50)
Well, I mean, I would also say that some of the people that put forward this, ⁓ or the the groupings that put forward this motion are themselves of course extremely intolerant, ⁓ and are very against other people's views where they go contrary to them, but are kind of lawfully held. so, you know, it's kinda horses for courses. And ⁓ you know, of course Blue Sky's nicer or Instagram's nicer because there's kind of smaller environments, you know, that a smaller crowd is gonna have fewer obnoxious twits in it. ⁓
I think if you if you're kind of heavily invested in social media, you're you are ⁓ in a a problem. I don't use it at all now. I've used to just lurk on Twitter for for following interesting people, ⁓ and it was a kind of good way of kind of collecting up things. ⁓ it has lost that. I think Stephen Fry described it as a it was it was great until people started peeing in the pool.
⁓ you know, when it was just a kind of rarefied sort of interesting celebs and and people all being nice to each other, that was fine until it became a bit more like society, then it's obviously become pretty awful. But ⁓ as I say, the people pushing for these types of of agenda items wouldn't consider themselves to be tolerant, they would consider themselves to be exceedingly tolerant, ⁓ but they are in fact ⁓ very intolerant of other people's views and and very ⁓ unwilling to to even
see other people's views go past them. There was obviously the ⁓ the successful efforts to ban
Les (29:21)
B before anybody chuck chucks anything at the radio, ⁓ are are you absolutely sure that you're talking about the very proposers of this motion?
Fraser (29:30)
Well, I mean, out for independence, for example, would ⁓ be very critical of of other people that had different views on on different matters to
Les (29:34)
Right. Who who weren't? I don't think proposing it. But anyway, they might have been.
Fraser (29:38)
⁓ responsible social media use was backed by ⁓ for independent, certainly, yeah.
Les (29:43)
Right, but I mean they're not proposing there's lots of things that are backed by people. I'm just looking at it now. Yes, they're they're there, behind Southside Central Branch, Lochabra North Lorne Branch, Preston, Seaton and Gosford Branch, the Disabled Members Convener, the Equalities Convener, and then out for independence. So steady on, my boy.
Fraser (29:48)
If you put forward a motion and you back it then that's you're yeah.
I don't I don't think there's anything invalid in that as I just suggest mildly that being able to sort of cope with other people's point of view where it is very directly contrary to your own, ⁓ is sometimes ⁓ not as tolerated by sectors of the SNP as it might otherwise be.
Les (30:22)
Right. Now the other thing that was new this year and I for sort of well I said I forced myself to listen to, but I by that stage I'd come home fairly knackered 'cause my God, try to get to the that place, you know, the whatever you you call it, tech or s P and J Live or whatever it is. I mean, it feels like it takes forever 'cause the bus stops every hundred yards and you get that it reminds me of the old days when I used to work in London and had to take the God, Piccadilly line out to Heathrow.
Fraser (30:35)
Tekka, yeah.
Les (30:52)
And it stopped it took almost an hour and kept you know, it stopped all the time. And of course you always left it too late. ⁓ you know, so it was a bit the same and it it kind of the stress of it was kind of pretty major. That that's a very first world problem, and it's good that there's a bus and so on and so on. But then of course Union Street is kind of semi closed. It'll doubtless be fine when it's finished, and there's a new bit around Marshall College that's pretty whoopy. It's all been done like kind of the oldie sort of
cobbles and stuff, so that look looks good. And my pals I'm staying with are huge Aberdeen they they sort of know Aberdeen very well. You've got to look down all the wee alleys 'cause there's murals and street art absolutely everywhere, which is sort of quite a contrast to the sort of stayed old granity feel of a lot of the place. But still there was a lot of walking around to bus stops that actually were out of use because routes had been rerouted without putting anything on the sign.
So it was quite a kind of tiring event all in all. so that's what I mean about being forced, because I came back and thought, gosh, that's me back. And then I thought, nope, watch this panel. So it was a panel with Gillian Mackay from the Greens, right? There was lot of prediction that there'd be Harry Carey about this, because you know, she's obviously a Green, you know, they're anti oil, there she is in the oil capital. I mean, p i the symbolism of something is doubtless there, but in the moment, you know, nobody and of course nobody from the co from the floor was able to raise very much.
They just want to know about independence pretty much. Her thing was she was very much again about young folk are driving this. And she she said as well that ⁓ Andy Burnham was in a way a bit of a helper for them because he was keeping independence in the news because of the strange backwards and forwards, you know, which all the media have spotted. so there was that. ⁓ Tommy Shepherd came in and was talking about, you know, the need for collaboration, but
He was looking there's very much an emphasis now on trying to get the right to decide separated from what you decide to do. ⁓ and so he he was saying we need two steps. One, the right to decide, and then two, which option. And he wants them to be distinct. So he wants and to get an alliance together for that right to decide. He's saying faith groups, churches and business. I've got to say the applause went down a couple of notches, you know, at that point, really, because I it feels a bit like
That constellation of forces are not the forces that were there what you know back in the day to set up devolution back in the late 1980s and early 90s and so on. ⁓ but still, he's kind of two-step on this. Gordon McIntyre came came on and said, No, it all needs to happen together. And Gillian Mackay was saying the same. People get excited by independence, not by process. So that
You know, that's sort of sitting there. And there was actually various other discussions about how the Celtic Alliance collaboration will work sort of long term. So there was discussion of that. And how do we get everyone who supports Cindy to come together? You know, and so it was actually good. And at the end of it, ⁓ there was a the the Keith Brown who was chairing the panel, ⁓ had said, you know, we'll do this again with another wider panel, and there was huge applause from that. So but the thing is
then got jumping onto this independence grouping me ⁓ fringe meeting, which which was fine, but it it's kind of what are you gonna do? I mean, there was one there was ⁓ a a contribution from the back of the room ⁓ w w where where she called out, you know, af after we'd all done speeches and everything, it was live streamed by Indie Live and perhaps the National as well. And big applause to the two of them because they were doing
really over and above. you know, we'll come on to some of the stuff that ⁓ the national podcast by Xander Elliards have been excellent actually, and no other newspapers doing this kind of stuff. But anyway, ⁓ so ⁓ but the question of this is what is this group doing? And I have a I do have a fear that what they're doing is having a meeting and then they did have a QR code, they do have a website. But I know from the building a local Scotland thing that we're doing
Fraser (34:48)
Okay.
Les (35:07)
that my God, it is hard to keep the momentum going and get keep people in touch with you because all of us are volunteers. So it's a it's a tough one to keep that show on the road. And yet if you aren't organizing to form a slate to stand in elections in the SNP and you aren't getting a distinct p point of view forward and doing something with it, I'm not sure really, you know, what benefit there is in just popping up every time there's a conference.
And sort of carping a bit from the corner, which is how how it could easily be cast. ⁓ and yet you do feel you want, geez, you know, a lot more urgency, and still we're in this run up to an election, which should be different and should be vibrant and kind of isn't. So that was the size of it.
Fraser (35:57)
Hm. I mean I I don't know, it's just very surprising given all that has gone before that that's as much as they mustered as a QR code and sign up here. I mean, yes, you have to start somewhere and you have to get people and you have to get the data, but it didn't sound like from what you're reporting that they had much of a clue as to what they wanted to do or how they wanted to achieve it or who was involved in it. And it's just a kind of classic case of being able to get stuff in the national. ⁓
And frankly, the national, then picking it up as a anti SMP, not national other ⁓ newspapers rather picking up from the national and putting it forward as an anti SMP story, you know, p swinny under pressure as you know, independent sp splinter group forms. ⁓ and then you get there looking for the splinter group. where's the militia? no, it's not a militia, it's a QR code. so I don't know. Wait, do you think it has any legs to come or is there more to see?
Les (36:50)
Yeah. And I d I really just don't know because it also I was also I have to say myself, even though I was billed as a speaker, having just been asked if I was going to be around, i i I I wasn't even very clear who it was that was sort of really organizing it. I think it was mostly the Aberdeen branch that was organizing it. So it just felt you know, everything I do, I'm so aware now that if you're somebody that turns up at something and this
y you know, you you've got one moment of connection with people that you want to stay connected with and then you've got to look at it from the point of view of the punt the punter walking through the door who just thinks and then what? Because you've got a moment when they're all there. I mean by contrast with the fringe meeting that we did, the Build a Local Scotland one, and my God, that was a good one. it we had the real duff slot of 9 15 AM on Friday.
And fully expected there to be nobody, but we had a bigger conference room and it was full. Admittedly, we did have bacon rolls. Yes, that's true. But still, so that that was a really good one. There was quite there was quite a few good speakers, including Dave Watson, who we're going to do a little podcast with about this actually, so that we get more detail of it. That's not just me, my repeated rantings. Dave, ⁓
Fraser (37:52)
And you'd bacon rolls.
Les (38:13)
was on the Christie Commission that set up a whole lot of useful guidelines that kind of get dipped in and out of by everybody as it suits them. ⁓ he also is the chief executive of the Jimmy Reed Foundation. He used to run Unison, the trade union. This guy knows where the bodies are buried in terms of all the nuts and bolts of local stuff and what can work and could might not work. So Dave was speaking, he was great. Ivan McKee was there and I mean it's it's amazing because
Ivan is getting kind of fair pelters from everybody for just not fing making clear what he's on about. But Ivan is living his best life. My God. I mean either that's that's a guy that thrives on a fairly major amount of mm, you know, heightened atmosphere in a room or yeah, I'm misreading it.
Fraser (38:51)
Wait
Well, but Joe I mean the quotes and the reports back were kind of Ivan saying, Well we're here now anyway. Come on, let's get on with it. You know, we just need to come together and and take this forward. But I think other people quite legitimately saying, Aye, how how do we take it forward? What is the plan? And people are getting cross, but the planet's not even been announced. And they're like, Yeah, but we don't know where the plan is. And we don't know how to engage with the plan. Is this a consultation or is it not a consultation?
Les (39:22)
I think
Yeah, totally. ⁓ but you know, he is I think the word gnomic comes to mind and it's not a word I think I've ever said before actually. But ⁓ you know, he'll he'll do a kind of well, you know, just tell us what you think then. I mean, I was speaking to beforehand and saying so their their proposal with the the the kind of regions, actually I'm trying to now remember again how many regions there used to be, you know, in the days that we have the two authorities. And I think, God.
You can Google while I'm talking, but I think it was either eleven or twelve. ⁓ and so actually the six to ten, if they got to the top end of that, they would actually be re-reinstating the regions pretty much. ⁓ now you could then have an argument because the the powers that they want to put to the regions are the same as the old regions used to have. Anyone, particularly Strathclyde region, where I was, ⁓ they ran education, social work, and social care now. So that's why.
You know, and if you're doing that, I think there's your template. You just are going old region, new region, we give them those powers. Now, a lot of people, including us, would like to have a discussion about whether that was ever the best place for all of that. ⁓ but yet that's part one, I think, of the equation. It's the part the part two is the worrying one because it could be 120 to 160 small councils, and it's still not very clear do they get statutory funding?
what powers do they have beyond licensing? Is housing, for example, staying local or going up to these very, very distant regional authorities? how many counselors? The counselors they're saying will serve on both. That's a bit of a tough gig. ⁓ i i it's it's not the vibr you know, at the moment as it stands, it's not just to frame it up, as I was saying at the event, you you need to get what normal is everywhere else.
And normal, I mean the I gave the example of Sweden and you might say this is not normal because these are this is both the most eff one of the most efficient countries on earth, and the most local in that you own you if you're an an average income tax payer, you pay all your income tax to your local council. And when someone explained that to me when I was in Sweden and 'cause I looked a bit surprised, and they said, So how do you do it then? And I thought, Mm.
Fraser (41:52)
Yeah.
Les (41:52)
Right. Aye, we spent we send all our income tax down to Westminster that then takes a few salaries off and sends some of it back to Edinburgh, that takes a few salaries off and then sends it to ⁓ councils that are so large you've generally speaking know nobody who's on them. And he said, Aye, how's that working for you? He's like, Right. So th the the Swedes have looked at it from the point of view of efficiency. If you're if the services, ninety percent of them are delivered locally, why are you sending your income tax to Stockholm?
So that I gave that example and that actually seemed to come can come to the center of a lot of it because we're still doing this. I mean, it's not a very powerful analogy, I'll grant you, but sort of intestine of control, you know, where the money and power seems to have to get mediated through so many bloody organs of the government before it comes back to where it started. And that is, you know, uneconomic. And then just screams of
a kind of lack of confidence basically in what local people would do with the money. But so that's we're, I think, nowhere near that. ⁓ and you'd have to say as well, we'll put the links at the end of the podcast. ⁓ the national, as mentioned, Xander Elliards did these two really good podcasts, one with Ivan McKee, where he did get close to some of the, you know, touchy points. But Ivan is just, you know, he he'll say to everybody, I that's okay. Just, you know, communities that want to be a community, just get in touch with us.
And it's sort of like, What? I'd said to him, Well, suppose Barrow wants to be an island or Aaron or Butte. He says, Well, they can make that case. And some of them have. And this is what's annoying people because they go, Jesus, have we missed this? You know, is it Yeah. And so the counsellors in the meeting were sort of saying, So how do we get in touch with you even? And he was just kind of going, Well, just get in touch in a bucket, you know, sort of way. And ⁓ they were really pursuing it and said
Fraser (43:33)
Yeah, is there a form I should have filled in?
Les (43:47)
By what email? Or by what? What? You know. And so he'd basically said, just look at my CabSec, you know, Cabinet Secretary email and send it in there. So I think people, if you're listening, ⁓ actually we should find that cabinet secretary email thing and put it on the notes. He did say that was how to get in touch. But it feels pretty blooming random, you know, that if that's is that it?
Fraser (44:12)
Quite frankly, that is absolutely one hundred percent not how the Scottish Government does ⁓ formal consultation. And ⁓ in actuality, ⁓ finding if you were just an ordinary punter, I think you would probably struggle to find the list of CabSec emails. ⁓ I think they might have slightly tidied up their website and put them back up recently, but in the olden day I it's it is it is now on now, but I mean up until a few months ago Scottish Government ⁓
Les (44:32)
Well I I I'll have I'll have a look. I'm sure it
Fraser (44:41)
under its covert rules, just had the central like contact us CSU ⁓ you know, and and we'll deal with it after that. Thank you very much. And then you at some point within the next twenty eight days you get an email from a a B one policy officer saying, Thank you for your email to the Cabinet Secretary for Local Government I'm responding on their behalf and we're not interested in whatever you've got to say.
Les (44:45)
yeah, hub thing.
So anyway, that's what he he did say. i it he was when Xander from the National was and he'd done a good bit of preparation because he was looking at the small countries that the SNP had cited just a few years ago, maybe even just last year, as role models. Austria Sw I can't remember Austria, Switzerland, was it Switzerland, Norway, you know, Denmark rather.
And so he was going through them and he he gave a list of how many councils each of these small countries had and they have between ten and a hundred times more councils than is being proposed by the SNP. Not the where we are now, but you know, i the the happy days that we're about to have, these guys have still got just humongous amounts more. So he he's he you know, it this it's well worth having a look at this and we'll put the thing in the notes. The other one they did was with Dave Moxon of the S T U C and he's not amused. His
take is that he thinks the Scottish Government is using this reform as a distraction from cuts. And I mean that you know view has been widely circulated. But you know he's he's basically saying there will be really serious cuts over the next month and that ⁓ after that the reform agenda will pop out as this is the only way that we manage to make you know of sort of anything good out of a really bad situation. They've got a
What is it, a five billion deficit facing them? ⁓ so that's not being spoken about, but he's saying this is basically, he thinks, is a kind of attempt to disguise the cuts. I mean, he was put through his paces and ⁓ I mean the point was put to him that there had been about ten thousand more civil servants per year. And he was saying, Well, yeah, Brexit took back control, so you know that means administering a lot. And don't mean civil servants, you know, sort of pinstripe.
suits and stuff and bowler hats sitting in London, but I mean public servants if you like. so there's more stuff to organise and the Scottish Government has taken on new welfare power, so some of that needs to be organised. And he's still pointing out that when you get down to it, the NHS in Britain is still about two percent of GDP. All the others mentioned there five percent anyway. ⁓ so it was it's a very interesting discussion because it gets down to a lot of nitty-gritty. And we're not in these meetings, I have to say
with the ministers, it's still when they're being kind of put through their paces on it, they're still keeping a couple of mantras going, which will sort of keep, you know, people like me sort of happy because it sounds like we're getting to something local. ⁓ can I just say I'm not happy, but on the face of it, you know, it sounds good. But I mean as soon as you drill down to anything about where the power lies, it's not. the Jenny Gilruth was on the Sunday show and was being asked
Fraser (47:42)
Ha ha ha.
Les (47:55)
Why not reform council tax at the same time? And she came out with ⁓ the thing that John Swinney always does about no settled will. and ⁓ y you know, there's quite a number of people were sort of saying, I mean, we've been through this so many times that w we should be able to, you know, you've got you've got it how are you going to have a brand new system?
Fraser (48:14)
There's only so many ways in which you can do this. Pick one and decide and then lead the country towards it.
Les (48:20)
Yes. ⁓ so you know, they're putting a tilt on it like it's an exciting time to be a counsellor and this new offer of different a different way of running local authorities will be a good offer for the May elections. But you know, there's a counsellor and it it takes something for people to voice up because you're you know, you're then being cast as a troublemaker. And the one woman who did ask a question in our meeting then got jumped on by all the right wing press and you know, she did give her name. So
You know, that that that is brave, but she basically said, I don't know what I'm standing for. You know, wh what what council am I standing for next May? And will I be elected? I mean, Ivan did say I think she would be elected for a full five year term, but f five year term for what council?
So you know, it's it's it it
Fraser (49:14)
I mean there's slightly fundamental democracy question in that. If you stand, you know, to be ⁓ in I don't know, our Galen Butte Council, ⁓ A on a practical level you're thinking I've got to get to Loch Gilped or whatever from wherever I currently am and then they go, No, no, it's fine, you've actually been hived off into Butte Council, so you just have to go and have a meeting in the broth new refurbished Rossy pavilion and you think, Well, that's Jim Dandy but you haven't actually stood for election
To be a representative of Butte Council. It's a slightly cute thing for the Scottish Government to to do. ⁓ I just this is continuing to be the single purest example of government policy in action and ⁓ delivery I think we have ever seen under Devolution. And it is utterly, utterly staggering. It is really incredible and ⁓
unless we're gonna see some t pulling out of the bag or a citizens assembly announced in the budget or whatever, I cannot see how this can be righted and God help us if they do try to ⁓ implement a land tax ⁓ given how poorly the this current ⁓ local government reorganisation is being developed.
Les (50:34)
Yep, well that is how it's looking at the moment. But sort of being what what we're trying to do with the building a local Scotland thing is we're just trying to stand in the middle of this to to say, look, here's here's what you know, we're here now. What could we be doing with local government and and shine the light on what they are you know, l let's try and frame this thing whole all thing up differently. So I I mean we're not I mean, we've got to kind of try and keep that door open until they shut it from the other side.
But I've got to say, it is just jaw-dropping actually, ⁓ to be doing things like this in such a kind of casual way. ⁓ there's another thing we'll put in the link here from ⁓ from Keith Yates, who who has ⁓ his he is Skeptical Scott, his platform, so you know that does say where he's coming from. But but he he has done a a blog that's been fairly widely shared by people in the policy community that's that's talking about
Trying to work with instead of having a big bang moment, trying to work with the different bits of sort of history of local democracy that's sitting around the place. ⁓ and so that gives you quite a sort of mixter maxter set of regions that the city regions that have got city growth deals, for example, he thinks they should just stay together, don't pull them apart because they've all been working together already. He thinks there's some kind of places that should get duked in with
other neighbors. So for example, ⁓ you know, our guile I'm trying to think now who who where which ⁓ where I'm I'm not managing to find
Fraser (52:06)
Well normally all the Ayrshires you think were just one Ayrshire authority rather than East Ayrshire and North Ayrshire and all that.
Les (52:11)
That's that's the next point I was coming up to. ⁓ but the the bo the boundary conflicts, yeah. You know, Fort William and Lochabur fit more naturally with Argyll than Highland. Helms Hellensborough and Loman fit more naturally with West Dumb Bartonshire than Argyll. And you know, there's a suggestion that ⁓ it well, Rutherglen were part of Glasgow and probably have stronger links than South Lanarkshire. So there's we ones like that he's saying fit up but they're not we, those boundary conflicts. Then he's got, yeah.
There's there's there's kind of a couple of places that have long histories of one administrative entity, Ayrshire, for example, the Kingdom of Fife and Falkirk. Now that's great, but as somebody who's, you know, regularly travelling an hour to my local something in my local area, it's still way off. And then he comes, so but still I take his point. You know, he's saying these things are there already. So, you know, that could be something. But again, I think his suggestions begin to kind of
wobble a bit when you come for the local communities because you know people are basically looking at the community councils. There's 1300 of them, 10% are inactive. They're consultative. They have a budget of 800 pounds, I'm now told, ⁓ and they don't necessarily need to be particularly vigorously elected. So the the experience of that is just one of utter frustration and constraint. They have no statutory powers.
And I don't know if that's a good enough basis upon which to build anything. So the point about this all is at least this is starting everybody to really focus on this issue now. So, you know, okay, that's one good thing. But I think if the second this looks like it's Mickey Mouse, if that's what it is, and you can believe that in my contribution, I did put as powerfully as I could that it couldn't be, and that we needed a citizens assembly.
to sort this out, but it just looks as if this is sort of baked into an a ⁓ and a pre existing agenda. And, you know, we'll just see what happens over the next couple of weeks.
Fraser (54:16)
if only there was an agenda that was pre existing, seems to be kind of slightly made up as you go along. ⁓ meanwhile, we're saying it should be more thought through and to take greater account of what's actually happening on the ground. The bold Andy thinks it should go faster. I'm aware of you know, the plans that there are in Scotland, but we need to do this now. It needs to be happening immediately and we need to go further and go faster. Prime Minister was in Motherwell, ⁓ with a genuine offer to John.
And I'm not calling out Scotland here for its failings. ⁓ big bold, ⁓ happy to work with you, but also deliberately mucking up your conference and taking away the n the news cycle. very disingenuous speech, which included such nuggets as that the ⁓ the number of people in not in education and training and employment, so NEETs
was once roughly one in six in Scotland, which was part of his, you know, I'm not signalling out Scotland, which I think is just short of 17%, which is actually the rate in Wales, not Scotland. And the rate in Scotland, according to the Commons Library, which published just a few months ago, is 3.9%.
Les (55:34)
Yeah.
Fraser (55:36)
So, you know, radically different and ⁓ it is lower in Scotland than in England. So if he was really doing an anti burnout, he could have said, you know, the the the the statistics are not comparable, by the way. They they what we classify as NEETs are different in England or Wales versus in Scotland. ⁓ but you know, his speech didn't say, you know, you've done really well with this and this has been a major focus for Scotland and
Blah blah blah blah. And we want to learn some of the things from you. But I also feel that we need to go further than that because the current, you know, rate is still woefully inadequate and young people of the future. It wasn't a a kind of evenly balanced speech. It was full of the it was a bit like a kind of kids pretending to their mum that you know the older sibling was the nicey nice one, but in actual fact they just sort of kicked the younger brother in the shins on the way past. ⁓ was a lot of absolute BS.
⁓ I felt. ⁓ but ⁓ mother will know more.
Les (56:33)
But the thing was his main line that or at least the main line got extracted from it was ⁓ you know that Scotland after you know after devolution that part of the promise was to take powers out of Edinburgh, but Scotland has become the most centralized country in Europe. And I'm sorry, but that's right. So the thing is, you know, I mean I know everybody's flapping around about it, but it's strange because somebody's actually I don't know if he's just accidentally stumbled on that being right. The next most centralised is England.
But you know, we're just ahead of it. And this is the other worry about what's going on. There is so many kind of boards, Quangos, and just merging Quangos doesn't actually affect the the the fact that in every other country the stuff that Quangos are often doing ⁓ is actually run by a local council. So it's kind of like anyway, I know we're going back on that. So however, it's a fair point actually. It now it's not. It's
Not for him particularly to come in and start lecturing us, because if I was going back across the road, you know, as we've said before, ⁓ he's great stuff about how regions are were put into the German constitution actually ⁓ after the Second World War. but he you know overlooked the fact that municipalities were put into that same constitution. So his ⁓ and there's thousands of them. I mean, it's just mind-blowing how many councils there are.
And how many councillors? So if he's trying to kind of say we're looking towards Germany in any way, as with every time that a leader tries to sort of just cherry pick something that fits their political agenda, like Margaret Thatcher picked Japan for the one union agreements, do you remember? ⁓ without looking at the whole of society or anything else about it, ⁓ he is just cherry-picking his
you know, analogies with regions. It's regions, regions, regions. Local. I don't think he's in any position to start lecturing anybody about their plans for genuinely local power to increase. But still you can't get away from the fact that was not a bad line. And also the bit where he kind of got, you know, do you do you, John? Do you I can't do his accent Do you, John? Do you I've seen s a couple of very good, I mean there's
Fraser (58:53)
Do you? Yeah. But
Les (58:54)
A AI sort of ones, you know, that take the the pitch pretty well on this actually, but you know, it's a whole different accent. Anyway, do you want to do you want to take power out of Edinburgh, John? Do you? And I kind of like cause we could work together on that. And it's it's a clever thing, 'cause I'd written a column sort of trying to predict what he would go on about, and I imagined he would start finger wagging and telling, you know, essentially telling him off, which you're saying in a backhanded way, as you say, it's like slapping the slapping your legs as you're walking past kind of thing.
You know, it wasn't an overt lecture. ⁓ so there was that and then of course the perhaps significant thing after that was he was asked, I can't remember by whom, ⁓ again about a second independence referendum, and he very pointedly didn't rule it out.
Did you notice that? ⁓ right. That was the main in the end, that was the main headline about it. And this seems to be what's happening is that people come and do a speech or something, and then they're, you know, they get a bit of a ⁓ a a kind of going over with ⁓ somebody afterwards. It could have been LBC who are a pretty useful set of people around the place. But nonetheless, that was the story afterwards that he even the yeah, you know, the right wing press were saying.
Fraser (59:42)
Hm. No.
Les (1:00:08)
He is v noticeably was asked two or three times to rule it to rule it out and he didn't rule it out. So I don't know what he's up to there.
Fraser (1:00:15)
Well, I sorry, I I did ⁓ yeah, but I mean he he just he just refused to engage with the question rather than to really I I suppose he just kinda kept what
Les (1:00:23)
No, I think if you're asked to rule it out very explicitly, the way it's cast is very much in out words of one syllable, yes, no. And if you go off on one, you're not ruling it out and you know that. Although you'd have to say th with Andy Burnham, there's been so many kind of you know, kind of ⁓ modifications in that already. It's possible you could argue he didn't realise he was being asked a biggie there. But I think he probably did.
Fraser (1:00:27)
Yeah, okay, fair enough.
Well I also called John Swinney the first secretary and I thought, July to goodness he can no
Les (1:00:50)
Indeed. ⁓ but just just this final one, because I've realized we skipped over this thing with the buses, ⁓ this has been the most unbelievable reaction this morning to to to this bus thing, which I think is a hugely popular policy. It's public control. And the link with ⁓ with Andy Burnham ⁓ is that people are going, ⁓ see, you're adopting the Manchester model of basically public control of ⁓ fares, routes, you know, all of that stuff.
and it's not pub it's not nationalization. But actually the th this is a model that that that is used around Europe and principally in Norway, in Oslo, Reuter have done this for 40 years. ⁓ we had the as Nordic Horizons, we had the ⁓ Heed Bummer of Reuter over to explain this. And it's a very it it's hard to get your head around, but it totally works for them that they set all the rules.
And then private companies have to sort of opt in and even carry the same livery at times. ⁓ and that's been going for a very long time. So this is what they're talking about. And the the heed bummer of McGills, who's obviously, you know, they're the ones that have donated half a million quid to Scottish Labour, there's something that went straight down the sink. So you do wonder about their business acumen. But anyway, they came out with this
Fraser (1:02:12)
What it it said it was like Robert McGabi.
Les (1:02:14)
Extraordinary stuff about Robert McGabi's style land raid type, you know, pattern, which actually interestingly then provoked somebody got in touch with the heed bummer of Ember, ⁓ who ended up defending John Swinney's public bus fan plans over McGill's dictator comment, Good Peace in the National, and Good Thinking to ask them. ⁓ but he's he's saying, ⁓ in fact, it was on Radio Scotland's breakfast show. I missed that bit.
It says that it's good to see the Scottish Government cares about buses ⁓ and that it was public control that's coming in. He doesn't quite see where the, you know, all the sort of next ad idiamine and rub Robert Mugabi kind of patter ⁓ comes from. ⁓ so you know, he he actually said, I think some of the reaction is absurd, the compare comparison to dictatorships and things like that. They'll still end up, you know, it will be interesting to see sort of where this goes because I wrote a column.
God, ages ago actually, again, I'll send you the the link, where there's been a in fact, where's it twenty twenty four, where there's been a campaign, particularly in Strathclyde for ages. I wrote this on the occasion that peak fares were ⁓ were were being axed, which is fine on the trains, except that more people use the buses. So it was to make the point that that that basically the campaigners in Strathclyde particularly were waiting for the Scottish Government to send
to to produce guidelines for how to do the franchising that would allow them to sort of essentially re-regulate buses. And they were really the the campaign was kind of really annoyed that it had taken so long. And in fact they was at that point in 2024, they were still waiting. So the reason that was suggested to me as to why the Scottish Government was wary was precisely McGill's.
That they knew the second they brought in any rules about, you know, franchising or whatever, these guys would absolutely horse them straight into court. So, I mean, you know, we've waited 2024, 26, and this campaign whose name I can't quite find quickly, ⁓ Strathclyde, I kinda mind actually what it is, but these guys had already been on the go for just, you know, years. So we've waited because of this possible threat.
that now has been outed, you know, these guys now need to put their money where their mouth is. And I would have thought that having better bus regulation and therefore a better service, you'd like to think at the end of it, that you're gonna have to spend a few, Bob, is going to be one of the the most popular policies you could have actually.
Fraser (1:04:56)
Quite I mean it it was the Better Buses campaign and s ⁓ Scottish Government finally approved it, I think, in September that ⁓ Strathclyde Transport Authority can actually take back control over bus franchising. So, you know, you're not getting to run your buses here unless you go to the hospital every hour. You know, you can't just do backwards and forwards to the shopping mall. ⁓
type activity to ensure that the the the the routes are are protected. This seems like quite a a normal and sensible thing to do. But if the s if that is effectively all that John Swinney is announcing is kind of more of or that ⁓ they've now finally got their heads around been able to use powers which I think were brought in in the Transport Act in twenty nineteen, it's an AMR announcement.
Les (1:05:42)
Yeah.
Yeah, it was better buses for Strathclyde indeed. ⁓ but anyway, it I I I think you know, nonetheless, I think that's probably a pretty popular policy. You do wonder if you're gonna do you're gonna transform the whole of local government, you're then gonna move on to the health boards, you're then gonna have the NHS falling into the middle of that, you're then gonna have mergers of Quangos, you're also gonna have by the looks of it cuts, you're also gonna put r you know, run through public control of buses.
These guys are gonna be, you know, are gonna be busy and there's gonna be quite a lot of fall you fallout. But there you are, you know, things are moving by the looks of it. So I realise we're getting towards the end of things, are we not?
Fraser (1:06:25)
We are indeed. Normally it's me that's bringing us up to that. But there was obviously the the other things we wanted to discuss were about Jonathan Powell, which is the ⁓ Prime Minister's ⁓ advisor's wife, tweeting about Palestine action. He was a former advisor on terrorism and is now a national security advisor to Andy Burnham, has been found that there's to be no further action against her. So ⁓ when's one person's support for Palestine action?
differ to the other.
Les (1:06:56)
Yeah, there's that. But actually last night I went to see the film NASA. Geez, that is you need to go and see that people. ⁓ it's it when you see the the name of it NASA, it it implies that the the filmmaker is sort of thinks the situation in Gaza is Nazi like, you know, the the words look similar enough. However, that's not what it what it comes from. Na NASA is the number of people, basically, as the the whole ⁓ film
Is Israeli filmmakers ⁓ interviewing Israelis from the IDF explaining the clinical way they have basically murdered people in Gaza using their phones to target people, listening to them, having put in this infrastructure, ⁓ and you look looking at a target, which might be who is thought to be a Hamas operative, and the the NASA are the number of people.
Who are innocent civilians who will be killed in order to take that guy out. So the NASA count on one building might be up to 200 for one ⁓ operative who, as the film goes on to describe, might not actually be there. And none of the people interviewed, and it is quite it's an extraordinary film. I'm looking at a review here from someone who said it's difficult to see.
He said, I often reject films told from the oppressor's perspective. But this what's so astonishing about this is this is just basically probing questions that just absolutely flesh out what a a com a complete grim and unvarnished killing machine Israel has set up. And there the the guys in Gaza had no chance. They talk about when they moved them from ⁓ I'm trying to remember which way now they went from the north to the south.
Fraser (1:08:48)
⁓
Les (1:08:54)
the idea was to just completely then bulldoze and obliterate everything so there was nothing to return to. I think we all knew that. Then there was the starvation, the famine, and they were talking about basically snipers set up to just take to take down anyone who deviated in the tiniest way from the route, from where they were to the food distribution units. And again, there was testimony from guys who were in this saying that they had s you know
they had seen twenty more people just in an hour killed that way. So this is anybody who thinks, and when you you watch this and you the guys are not going through any angst. They're not being asked questions about how they feel about what they've done. There's one or two moments when the questioner, the whole thing is done in sort of silhouette
on the rooftops of Tel Aviv, ⁓ you can't see properly who's speaking, and yet apparently ⁓ they've already been threatened by Netanyahu, who's saying that they will find these guys. They will they've already had demonstrations. The filmmakers had demonstrations outside his house, with people chanting death to, you know, this guy. ⁓ so it it's incredibly
powerful and it just anybody who's got any doubts about what's going on, just go and see it. And there it's rock solid, a hundred percent testimony that everything everyone suggested was going on. And you know, the IDF or Netanyahu would say, there was doubts about it. they were, you know, Hamas was using people as a shield. This was all by the by. They had got they had got numbers and the guys go quite through it quite methodically.
And this is the point. Nobody sees, nobody's face to face. They just they just clinically select a building, figure out how many people are in it, give the coordinates, wait until and they're waiting, for example, to listen into a lassie's phone to hear her say the words Daddy's home and then they bomb the whole building.
So, you know, there's nothing you've nothing left now. This is exactly what's going on. And it you come out we had c you know, conversation coming out at the end. You're just left I d geez, I don't know what what you would suggest now. Except that the all the the mechanisms to ⁓ to isolate Israel have got to be really serious. And I see there's another piece in the Nationals Day about still having a company on a short lead, which is
Fraser (1:11:15)
Five.
Les (1:11:44)
producing kit for ⁓ for the settlements. There's got to be an isolation. But do you know something? Nothing's gonna happen until Bloemin Trump's out. Nothing nothing serious and huge, because that's what it would take. When you look at how precarious that whole economy is and society, it would take some really serious bit of s sanctions to make any movement. And of course there's an election next week
⁓ where Netanyahu, you know, maybe his chick is on a sugary peg, but it'll only be the right wingers that will probably benefit. So it's a terrible situation, but for your understanding of what's true, you can watch that and then you can ask yourself, going back to what ⁓ you were saying earlier, ⁓ about the ⁓ about the the wom I'm trying to get her name 'cause I keep hate c calling people wives of somebody. Sarah Helm, ⁓ who basically
backed backed Sally Rooney, the Irish writer ⁓ who backed Palestine Action. What the hell have we still got this legislation on the books for? You know, we should absolutely Andy Burnham should be repealing that stuff right now, or what? So, you know, ⁓ we'll put the link up and you need to find where it is locally. It was on in the DCA in Dundee last night, so it's around local cinemas in Scotland right now.
Fraser (1:13:05)
⁓
It does seem to certainly be available to watch. I think you'd have to maybe a wee bit of of effort into it, but it's it's ⁓ it is being shown and ⁓ a bit of judicious googling should hopefully find it somewhere close to you and ⁓ obviously extremely powerful and ⁓ moving thing to to watch. But on that somber note, we will see you next week, chumps.
Les (1:13:41)
Right.