Naturally High

In this deeply honest and expansive conversation, Jeanne welcomes back returning guest Daniela Tilbrook, author of Not My Shame, to explore the powerful and often misunderstood world of plant medicine and its role in healing trauma.

This episode moves beyond the stigma and surface-level curiosity around psychedelics and into a grounded, nuanced discussion about intention, integration, and what it truly means to heal. Daniela shares her personal experiences with ayahuasca ceremonies, revealing how the journey is less about escape and more about remembering, returning to truth, compassion, and inner peace.

Together, Jeanne and Daniela unpack the emotional and psychological layers of trauma, forgiveness, identity, and the ongoing nature of healing. They explore how profound insights can emerge not only from peak experiences, but from the everyday work of integration that follows.

This is not a conversation about quick fixes or “silver bullets,” but rather an invitation to understand healing as a lifelong, embodied process.

In this episode, you’ll hear about:
  • Reframing ayahuasca from “psychedelic” to intentional healing medicine
  • Why healing is about remembering, not escaping
  • Daniela’s experiences with ayahuasca ceremonies and what they revealed
  • The role of forgiveness in releasing trauma and reclaiming your life
  • How compassion can emerge even toward those who caused harm
  • The importance of integration after peak or transformational experiences
  • Why plant medicine is not a shortcut, but a tool within a larger healing journey
  • The power of group work, witnessing, and shared healing spaces
  • How identity, trauma, and the inner critic keep us stuck
  • Why life continues to “life” even after profound healing breakthroughs

About Daniela Tilbrook

Daniela Tilbrook is the author of Not My Shame, a memoir and guidebook that explores recovery from childhood abuse, shame, and self-sabotage. Drawing from more than two decades of personal healing and self-discovery, Daniela shares the tools and insights that helped her break cycles of trauma and reclaim her sense of self.

She is currently writing her second book, Post-Traumatic Wisdom: From Disorder to Inner Peace, which is set to be released on June 27, 2026—PTSD Awareness Day. Through her work, Daniela continues to inspire others to transform pain into wisdom and live with greater freedom, truth, and compassion.


Resources discussed in this episode:
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Contact Jeanne Foot | The Recovery Concierge: 

Contact Daniela Tilbrook: 

Creators and Guests

Host
Jeanne Foot
DT
Guest
Daniela Tilbrook

What is Naturally High?

On Naturally High you’ll receive transformational tools and hear inspirational stories that will guide you into holistically healing trauma in every corner of your life. You deserve to invoke your inner healer. I'm so glad you're here!

Jeanne: [00:00:05] Hello, everybody, and welcome back to another episode of Naturally High. I am just thrilled to have Daniela Tilbrook back, author of Not My Shame. And we interviewed Daniela some time ago and it was a very powerful interview. So I really encourage you to check that out. And before we dive into our juicy subject today, which is ayahuasca as remembering, not escaping, like we're going to have a juicy talk about plant medicine because Daniela is someone who has subscribed to it, and we want to share her experience and educate people on her experience, as well as maybe some misconceptions around the idea. Because I think there's many if that carries stigma like addiction carries stigma, I think there’s many we're going to be able to discuss. But before we do, I want to introduce Daniela as the author of Not My Shame, but she's also writing a new book, and I just want to share a little bit about that before we dive into our other juicy subject. So, Daniela, welcome to Naturally High. Thank you again for being here today. And why don't you tell people where you are right now compared to when we recorded last, which was, let's say six months arbitrarily, just to give a good timeline, what's changed in your life? Maybe you could share with us.

Daniela: [00:01:25] Really good to see you again. And yeah, thanks for having me back on your podcast. So what's changed? I've gone to the Netherlands twice now to do ayahuasca. And when I'd sort of spoken to you before, it'd only been that one time. But I did go back in December, and I am writing my second book, which is called Post-Traumatic Wisdom: from Disorder to Inner Peace.

Jeanne: [00:01:48] Wow. Let's just celebrate that for a minute. Hold on. Post-traumatic wisdom, like that is what we all want from our adversity, our growth, and our pain, is to come out all the more wiser, the more whole. And I say integrated as well. And I know you're a big subscriber of that as well, but that's something amazing. So when can we expect to see that?

Daniela: [00:02:14] Well, I decided to publish it a year after the first book, so it will come out on the 27th of June in 2026, which is PTSD Awareness Day. So I thought that I would follow up, you know, with my second book a year later. And interestingly, my second book has been easier to write in the sense of like, I'm not trying to figure out how to write a book. So that has made it a lot easier. And for any budding authors out there, just have a really detailed outline. It saves you so much time, because in my first book, it was a little bit loose and I was kind of figuring it out. And sometimes I ended up writing a little bit in circles and then changing things. But this time I really took the time at the beginning to have a clear map. So when you have that map, I mean it might potentially change a little bit, but I feel much clearer on where I'm going with this book.

Jeanne: [00:03:06] Beautiful. There's nothing like experience, right? And that's, you know, you created momentum by doing something consistent every day because it doesn't get done if you just do it when you feel like it, that's for sure. And here you are, right? Doing it again and again and again and again. So there you go. You inspire me. I'm going to write that damn book. I've always been talking about it, but I haven't yet done it. So there you go.

Daniela: [00:03:28] I always say to people which I learned was you just have to have a deadline. So, you know, I've got the publication deadline. I've worked backwards. I'm writing a chapter a week. I'm working with my editor from the beginning. So I've sent her the first three chapters, which she's gone through. So we're going to kind of do it in chunks. And I'm even thinking of potentially just sending little chunks of chapters to the beta readers so it's not so overwhelming when you get the kind of like, oh, there's a final manuscript for you to read.

Jeanne: [00:03:56] Yeah, I think that's a brilliant idea. You're learning and you're growing as you go along.

Daniela: [00:04:00] Yeah. And the other thing is really to also do it when you don't feel like it. And sometimes…

Jeanne: [00:04:05] You're building that muscle. It's good. I'm very proud of you. So I want to talk to you a little bit about plant medicine. You have particular experience with ayahuasca. I know that you travel a lot in your personal growth and self-development, and you're someone who is committed to your own personal healing and growth. So I know that much about you. So I want to disclose that to people who are listening today. This isn't someone who, you know, doesn't have any introspection about themselves. You do have that. You're sober, you're clear, you're conscious, you're embodied. Maybe what you could do is share with people why this appealed to you as part of your healing journey and what it is that you found? Maybe let's just start there.

Daniela: [00:04:55] I have had friends that have done plant medicines and they've said, you know, really great stuff about it, how it's helped them. But I was really reluctant. And I think the word, kind of psychedelics, and I thought, you know, well, I've spent a long time getting away from those, you know, drinking and, you know, smoking cannabis, and all the other things that I felt like I have a really sober life. Like, why would I then go and take psychedelics? But what kind of switched for me is thinking of it as medicine rather than kind of getting off your head. And the intention was so different. It was for healing. And I think once I got my head around that, I thought, actually, I think this might be the next step in my journey. Because until you know, at that point, I've done lots of different therapies before the ayahuasca had done eMDR, which was really helpful. And it just felt like almost the next kind of stepping stone in my journey. The reason I went to the Netherlands was because they'd been doing it there a long time. And I kind of thought, you know, it's not legal here either. And it's kind of, you know, where do I go? I kind of wanted to go somewhere safe. So I ended up going to the Netherlands.

Jeanne: [00:05:58] Beautiful. So I know that you've done it recently and you've done it at different stages in your journey. Is that correct?

Daniela: [00:06:06] Strangely, actually, it was the same weekend in December last year as the previous year. It just happened to be a year later. And my friend, who was also my book coach, he said to me, oh, I'm thinking of doing ayahuasca. And then I said, oh, you know, would you mind if I went with you? And yeah, he was fine with that. And it was quite nice to actually go with someone as well, because the first time I did it as a solo person with, you know, strangers. But it was nice to have like someone I knew there with me as well.

Jeanne: [00:06:35] So tell me what you found in this process that you had an intention. Do you mind sharing your intention, what it was for people? Or just you can give an example of why someone might do that.

Daniela: [00:06:48] They always say that it never gives you what you think it's going to give you. I thought that like, I don't know, I had this thought that I was going to be shown like, why all this happened to me, and I'd get this kind of insight, but I wasn't sure…

Jeanne: [00:07:00] You went looking for answers clearly, right?

Daniela: [00:07:05] I guess there's always been that question like, why did this have to happen to me? And, you know, it was… it's just, it's something that has haunted me for a really long time that like, why?

Jeanne: [00:07:15] Why me?

Daniela: [00:07:16] Yeah. Why me? I didn't really get the answer to that, but I did get other answers.

Jeanne: [00:07:21] So you didn't get the answer to what you wanted, but answers were revealed to you about things that you've thought about over the years, over time, or you had clarity about a situation that maybe you saw differently. Is that what you're saying? I'm just trying to help people understand.

Daniela: [00:07:38] So at the first time I went, there was this real strong message like, you have to forgive. Like you have to let this go because I've been holding on to it like so strongly. And it showed me all the people I had to forgive. And it kind of went almost like this, like ladder of forgiveness, which started like with my stepfather. He was the person I had to forgive the most. And then to my biological father and then my mother, and then it kind of went down in these layers where the kind of smaller kind of maybe betrayals you've had in your life. And it kind of started going, circling through all these people in that real message of like, you must let this go, like for your own sake, because you're holding on to this kind of so tightly.

Jeanne: [00:08:18] I agree with you and, you know, holding on to the pain, whatever that is for any one of us. Because if you're human, you can't escape it, is part of the story that keeps us stuck. So there's a narrative like, this happened to me. I can never be anything different. Right? Let's use that as a global example. And therefore, as much as I want to get rid of this, you know, there's an old saying, sometimes the devil you know, then the devil you don't. Right? That's why people stay in relationships, to overstay in relationships, in workplaces or whatever it may be. Or, you know, in love with their substances, whatever their addictions are. Because there’s many in life. Some are definitely more benign than overt. But I think that is the challenge is I don't want to use the word surrendering, but in a sense it is. It's acceptance of what is right in order to lighten you up so that you can then be free to do whatever you need to do and come back to the essence of yourself. So why do you think forgiveness is maybe so challenging for people?

Daniela: [00:09:27] I think when someone's hurt you so much and when it's had such a profound impact on your life, it is hard to let it go because all the all the issues that I've had in my adulthood, it wasn't just what happened to me as a child. It was going into adulthood with like extremely low self-worth and low self-esteem and low confidence. And then it felt like that I was taken advantage in my sort of young adulthood by all the bullies and the bad boyfriends, and it just kind of went on and on. And, you know, with my mental health and the complex PTSD, it just… it was just a cascade of just so much stuff and mental health issues because of what someone had kind of done to you. That's why it's so hard to let it go, because it's kind of, it's had such a profound impact on my life.

Jeanne: [00:10:11] And your identity is unfortunately tied up in that too. So it's like, who am I? Right? You wonder who you really are if you have no sort of grounded anchor, whether it's positive or negative, right? And that's part of the adaptation process, right? Like who you described is so different than the woman I know. How you go about your day, how your commitment to your family, your commitment to your own personal growth and self-development, and on and on and go. An author, like holy cow, like we, you know, it's amazing. So we get kind of caught up in identifying with this perceived identity, which is not true. And unless we are able to see ourselves differently, even if we get a glimpse, or someone can hold a mirror up to us to show us that's not the person I see here, we can be there, unfortunately, for a very long time.

Daniela: [00:11:11] I think also the inner critic is just so loud. When you've been through these, you know, these kind of traumas and it's kind of trying to sort of, you know, dial down that voice. And I love what you've just reflected back to me and I sort of forget. Oh, yes. No, I, you know, I am an author and it's almost like you don't see it yourself and like, oh, that journey that you've been on. But it's nice when someone kind of reflects it back and you think, wow, actually, I have come a really long way.

Jeanne: [00:11:36] Because I don't see the narrative. I happen to know you, but let's just assume I don't, because I see this with new clients all the time. I see the essence of who they really are. I see… so the essence is their potential. I represents their being where the person who's sitting in the chair, let's just say it's you for this example, the old you had all this noise filling your head. That wasn't who you were. It was just your noise and through your lived experience, unfortunately. So it's just interesting how we can evolve and how we can let go of these stories, rewire our neural pathways, and start to move beyond the narrative, which is the goal and one of many.

Daniela: [00:12:22] And I think with what I really took advantage of that you talk about the rewiring with the ayahuasca because after the first ceremony, when I came back to the UK, I kind of had a real thought about like, this is the kind of person I want to be. I want to be the kind of person that can sit down and write and do deep work and be disciplined. And I was able to install those habits where at the end of the ceremony, I'd kind of mention my book, and one of the guides said to me, oh, when are you releasing the book? And I just looked on ChatGPT and I asked the question, when would be a good date to release my book? And the date came out in April and I was thinking, oh, that's a bit too soon. And there was like the June date of the PTSD Awareness Day. And I was like, oh, that's a, that sounds like a really great day. And it also gave me like six solid months. And then I sort of set the deadline and I came back and then just executed. But I think the whole ceremony also just helped me with like creating those new habits, which was fantastic.

Jeanne: [00:13:20] That's just amazing. So I want to talk to you a little bit about the integration of the healing journey and the integration, just for people who are listening, can happen without psychedelics. It can happen with psychedelics and without psychedelics. So I want to hear from you, your feelings around how the integration really helped you and what exactly it was for you.

Daniela: [00:13:47] I think it is... Sometimes it is the mundane, I don't know everyday life when you can have these kind of peak experiences. And you are correct. You don't need to do psychedelics to integrate. But just to... If I quickly tell you what happened in a second ceremony, I think it will give a little bit of context to... And this is almost like a deeper level of forgiveness because the second time I went, I, it was like in the ceremony, I was like, this light, it's like loving mother energy. And I saw my stepfather as a child, probably about 7 or 8. And I said to him, like, what did they do to you? And in this vision, I saw him kind of being abused. But what was really interesting is like in that moment, I had such compassion for that boy. And I think it just gave me that feeling of like, I think it's when the traumatized end up traumatizing others. And this is not to excuse obviously, like what he did.

Jeane: [00:14:47] I understand what you're saying.

Daniela: [00:14:48] But it gave me that different like almost a higher perspective that he's probably been through, you know, some sort of hell himself that has made him kind of, you know, do what he did. And it was that interesting. Yeah. Almost like deeper kind of level of like, again, like just kind of forgiving and just sort of getting on with my own life and not just holding on to this like so deeply.

Jeanne: [00:15:12] In order to be able to forgive, even if it's in a split moment of clarity in a flash or you’re in, under a psychedelic experience, ayahuasca, recognizing that you saw yourself recognizing that this is someone who's being pained or troubled or abused himself in order to be able to be that horrible with others. You got that. That's part of the healing, right? To have, to be able to even see it, even if a witness it, because that witnessing is part of it. And we know that people don't have to remember everything. They have to be validated emotionally for what they've experienced. Can you speak to that a little bit?

Daniela: [00:15:56] Doing it in a group, I think also that's where the power of the healing is as well, because, you know, it was very well done. There was a lot of, you know, that that first evening we did breathwork, there was a lot of sharing. And I think it's other people kind of witnessing your healing journey as well, which can be so healing.

Jeanne: [00:16:14] So that is the power of group work. Yes. That there by the grace of God go, I see myself in you. You see yourself in me, right? Where if we're sitting in a room 1 to 1, I think you can hide a lot easier than in a group.

Daniela: [00:16:30] And I think Jeanne also, what was interesting, if I was having therapy and we're talking about forgiveness, I guess I really it was more of a visceral. I just kind of felt it was more of a feeling of, of compassion, which, which sounds really strange, like compassion towards your abuser, which it kind of…. I don't know, because in that moment I was this loving light. You know, I wasn't me. Well, maybe it's part of me.

Jeanne: [00:16:55] You really are. Yeah, it is part of you. But let's not go too far there. Give yourself some grace, girl.

Daniela: [00:17:05] I went to an integration circle on Sunday with the British Psychedelic Society.

Jeanne: [00:17:10] So what is that? Can you explain that?

Daniela: [00:17:13] So it's a group here in the UK and every six weeks or so they have like integration circles where people, you know, can come and talk if they've had an experience. But it was really nice to kind of, yeah, just kind of tell people about my experience. And what was really interesting is that I feel like I've got more peace with my past, but as I've come back, you know, the other, the other problems of life or the other issues have become a little bit more like the mundane every day. So it was quite interesting about that. It's not a silver bullet. Like you can find this kind of inner peace with your past and forgiveness, but like, life still goes on and you still.

Jeanne: [00:17:53] Life’s lifing, you know, that's what it does, right? It gives us some entertainment. It keeps us on our toes.

Daniela: [00:17:59] Last year I had, it was my 50th year, so I had a big 50th party. And it was a little bit of slight overspending last year and then Christmas. And then it was interesting because at the beginning of the year it was like, right, we need to sort of look at our finances and sort that out a little bit. But it was that real bang back to earth. And like, this is the reality of life. Like you feel like you found this inner peace, but like we're going to give you the next thing.

Jeanne: [00:18:21] Yeah, you're this worldwide author. You're traveling around the world doing ayahuasca, you know, like it's all good, right? I mean, as we say, we're never exonerated, right?

Daniela: [00:18:33] Yeah, I think, I think sometimes, and if there is a part of me that almost feels like, oh, you know, I've done so much inner work, I've done the therapies, I've done the plant medicines. You know, I should have arrived by now. But realizing that you just… It's not that destination. It's the you know, it's that continued journey.

Jeanne: [00:18:53] I think it's like digging to China. You know, like when we talk about peeling back the onion, there's another layer and another layer and another layer. So, you know, if I think about how many, you're talking about healing, like you're never there yet, we're never exonerated. And I always say it, to me, I'm also surprised I go, that's when I have a moment of clarity, a consciousness around something that I haven't seen before, which I've had in the last couple of weeks because I've been away and traveling and stepping back a little bit more from work than in a way that I've never have. It brings up space and it brings up clarity. But I sometimes think to myself, how did you not know that? Like, how did you not know that? Right? Because you see something in such a different way than what you thought about it before. And so yes, we are never, ever, ever there yet. And I think if we can make friends with that and just be grateful and in gratitude for this continuous wonder about life and ourselves and our relationships and each other, I think that really is a secret sauce. Otherwise, we get bored and when we get bored, we get restless. And people aren't their best when they're restless, no question. So can you speak to that a little bit?

Daniela: [00:20:08] For some reason I was quite scared of doing like the mushrooms. I don't know why I felt okay doing ayahuasca. But yeah, it's just sort of a little bit scared of the mushrooms. So I mean, I've never done them personally, but I, it is interesting about the peeling of the layers because sometimes I realize that I still internalize so much, almost like taking on the responsibility of like other people. Or, I don't know, if a friend hasn't been in contact for a while and I don't know it. It's almost like, oh, you know, what have I done? So I've sort of sometimes I'm still kind of doing it in like little scenarios in my life where I have to kind of just step back and, you know, people are really busy and, you know, life's quite complex. There's a lot of, you know, there's a lot going on in other people's lives, that it's not really about, often not about you as well.

Jeanne: [00:20:58] Ah, that's, that's what I call emotional sobriety is when you recognize that emotionally, what's going on in other people's landscapes may have very little to do with you, but how do we not lose ourselves, and I mean abandon ourselves in those difficult times when we're triggered, as you know, from other people? Because they're in their stuff, they're in their own internal mess. How do we hang on to ourselves in those challenging moments? Because people get triggered.

Daniela: [00:21:28] Yeah. And I think also when you've had a lot of attachment wounds, you're quite, I don't know, you're quite susceptible to that kind of.

Jeanne: [00:21:35] Yeah, absolutely. I know that firsthand.

Daniela: [00:21:38] But it's kind of, again, just building that real kind of solid, you know, sense of self because, you know, if you are a secure person, you're less affected by kind of, other people's behaviour. And you don't always have, you don't have the full picture anyway. You don't, there's so there's so much of the unknown in other people's lives, you know, unless they're telling you.

Jeanne: [00:21:59] And our own, there's so much of our, you know, we think we know, right? Because we're only in this, what I call chapter of life, in this moment in time. This is the chapter of life we're both in. So whatever it is that we see, we see from that perspective. We haven't learned the next thing yet. We're waiting to become more conscious of that. And when we do, then we arrive again, right? So it's an interesting concept to recognize that this is a continual evolution. Please God, it will stay that way until we no longer are here on this planet. But that's what I believe self-actualization is really about is that there's this hunger and this desire and this thirst to grow and evolve. And in the Maslow's hierarchy of needs it’s one of the last things that we actually achieve. So it's not one of the first things. And some people say, well, I'm not really like that. And maybe you think you're not really like that, but neurologically, biologically we're wired to evolve because as a species, we are more alike than different. Like, yes, you, you may look different than me. You may live in a different country. But as humans, we have tendencies that are typical.

Daniela: [00:23:15] I've noticed whenever I am in these kind of circles, when people are sharing, you can often really relate to their stories. You might not have had, you know, it's obviously not going to be exactly the same, but it is that kind of common humanity. And, you know, that we are more similar than we are different.

Jeanne: [00:23:33] That's one of the things we talk about, is there by the grace of God go I. Like I know that you're as vulnerable as I am. So when something happens, good or bad, we identify because we know that we've been spared or chosen in that moment. And maybe it's just that moment because life does life, right? The way it unfolds for us. Is there something that you see as trends or patterns in the psychedelic landscape that you want to share or talk about?

Daniela: [00:24:07] You know, I've sort of gone twice myself. I mean, I wouldn't sort of call myself like an expert really, but I guess there's more openness for people to go down these kind of routes. I mean, I wouldn't really be able to speak to trends per se.

Jeanne: [00:24:22] That's okay. But you talk about it being illegal in England, right? But yet there's integration circles for people who go there. And I know the technicality around that. So I'm just saying like, in medicine in Canada, it’s started to become like, obviously there's practitioner training and the certifications. There's all sorts of different trainings for it. So, and there's research and clinical studies done around the world. So it's starting to become more, I think the stigma around it, just like there's stigma around cannabis and stigma around alcohol, I think is starting to loosen as well because it has been benefit, especially with studies in PTSD. People who have served in the military have had very good success with it. So, do you think there's a need for education? Like, so let's say I'm the layperson who's living wherever I am in the world. And I think that this could be a really good idea to explore. Who do you go to? How do you find out the information if it's in an underground tunnel right now? Yeah. Is word of mouth right? Typically.

Daniela: [00:25:35] I think that's, because when I went to the first integration circle, because they're not allowed to kind of tell you where to go. So what, then what happens is you talk to people after the circle and this lady said, oh, I went to this place in the Netherlands and she shared the website with me. So it is a little bit like that kind of trying to find the sort of, I suppose, people that have been to the places. And I think especially with something like psychedelics, you don't want to go to some like, witch doctor, I can't think of, like a witch doctor type person doesn't really know what they're doing.

Jeanne: [00:26:06] You know, someone who's trained and experienced not just in psychedelics, but also in trauma and who has some clinical capacity to help someone. Right? Are you finding that exists now like a very good hybrid of psychedelics with best medical or clinical practices?

Daniela: [00:26:24] Well, the place I went to, I went to two different places this last December. The lady had trained as a doctor and she, so she kind of had that medical background and then sort of went, you know, didn't necessarily agree with all the kind of Western models that kind of went more towards the kind of plant medicine. The group and the facilitators, they were so like heart-centered and just it was all done in such a great structured way that, I mean, I couldn't fault them. And I just felt so looked after. And something did happen in the ceremony. I was crying and the lady, she had this like, real mother kind of energy around her, and she just kind of held me whilst I was sobbing. And I remember thinking, oh my goodness, I was never held as a child. And I told her that as well. I said, oh I think yeah, I just, I was never soothed and it just felt so nice. I was like, wow.

Jeanne: [00:27:20] Well that's, I understand the impact of someone holding space for you, safe space for you. Because that was in my somatic training back in decades ago. And here are total strangers, for want of a better expression, right? Treating you like your family was supposed to have treated us right. Like holding you in your arms like a baby, making you feel safe until they can release. Knowing that you feel safe and supported. And I thought to myself, what a miracle that this stranger can do that for me. And it's kind of hard to trust. In the beginning, it was for me in particular, because if you don't have the capacity to be needed or allow yourself to be supported, then you don't have the capacity. It's a learned skill, right? Just like we learn everything else. That's why it's so easy for us healers who really haven't fully healed to give out rather than to take in. Can we fill up our own cup? Do we have more capacity for ourselves? Right? And that's a learned skill. Did you find that a little bit of a stretch or you were just, the substance that allowed you to get there much quicker, because I think I've done that without it. Right? So it just took a bit of a beat.

Daniela: [00:28:40] Yeah it did. It did feel like I could really let go. And what was interesting, because I was kind of sobbing and then it kind of slowed down, I guess, as it naturally would if someone's kind of consoling you. But I just remember thinking, oh, this is so nice. And it was, yeah, it was really beautiful. And another interesting thing happened because I was joking with my friend how I was kind of plotting, you know, I'd get my three cups of ayahuasca. What was super interesting was I just didn't need it because in the first ceremony, when I first went, I did, I did have the three cups, but this time it was a much more mellow experience that I didn't need to get off my head or it was almost like trying to get as much, I think it was that addictive part of me. And it was quite a lesson to actually just take what you need. You don't need to like, get off your head here. As I said, like much more mellow, much more, you know, relaxing.

Jeanne: [00:29:31] Well, that shows how much you've changed, because it may seem subtle that you felt that you didn't need as much, and somebody could say, well, it's like being hungry. She wasn't as hungry. Yeah, but we're not talking that. We're talking about an innate drive that makes you feel like your survival depends on it. Because when we're in an addictive state, our survival feels like it depends on it. It's not that that really is life threatening, but the urgency around acting on something, whether it's my three cups of ayahuasca or eating that chocolate cake or whatever it may be, there's this urgency that feels like it just won't quit. And so for you to have that realization that, oh my God, that maybe I'll just drink because there's enough here and I'll see if I need more. And if I need more, I do, and if I don't. That's a major shift.

Daniela: [00:30:24] It was massive. And I remember the guide coming around saying, do you want another cup? And I was like, no, thank you.

Jeanne: [00:30:31] So yeah, just because it's there, I'm going to eat it and it's free, right? There's a lot of mentality. How many people overeat because it's a free buffet? Go for it, right, before you learn that you don't need everything on the buffet, you pick what you want, right? What's important to you, right?

Daniela: [00:30:44] I think it's also all get your money's worth, you know, that kind of… but yeah, it was a real interesting lesson. And the other one was because I had to come off the caffeine a week before and I was getting like really bad headaches, like muscle aches. And it was interesting because after the first ceremony, as soon as they dropped me back to the station, the first thing I did was get a coffee. But this time I kind of thought, actually just chill on the caffeine as well. So like, now actually wait till later in the day to have a coffee rather than having it kind of first thing to get me started.

Jeanne: [00:31:17] Me too. I learned that it's not supposed to have it first thing. You're supposed to have it at least an hour after you wake up, so that's good. I have this love/hate thing about coffee. Either I'm into it too much, or I go off and then eventually it lands back in the same place. It's an addictive substance. There's no question, no question. So when you think back of where you were last year, where you were post integration of a psychedelic trip, what do you think is noticeably different in your life or about yourself?

Daniela: [00:31:48] Something quite major happened as well, because in December, I was talking to one of the guides before, we were talking about my mum, and I was sort of saying she has to step on the bridge, like she has to make the first move because we haven't spoken for two years. And then after the experience, we're all having dinner. And I said, oh, I've decided I'm going to go and see my mum the day after Christmas. My brother was over, and the original plan was that he was going to pick up my children and then take them to my mum's, and I was going to have nothing to do with it. But it was an interesting one. So the day after Christmas I was kind of going, am I really going to go to my mum's just because I've been shown this in the experience? I kind of thought, okay, let's go with it. Let's see what mother, I, you know, let's see, you know, let's trust her wisdom, I guess. But it was really nice and we had a lovely family day and I've seen my mum a few times now since. But what's interesting was if I was going to see her, I just had to let go of what I wanted her to say to me, or that she had to apologize, or that she had to have this remorse or, I don't know. It was a real interesting one to kind of just accept her for like all the flaws and you know who she is. So that's been quite interesting.

Jeanne: [00:33:03] That is interesting. And I didn't have the same experience as you. But what I can say with a parent that could be disappointing for us is that the faster we recognize that their capacity to be any different is extremely limited, if not at all, the more peace we will have. And you came to that, which is an amazing place to land because then you just release all the expectations and you can be in the moment of the relationship rather than in the past or in the future, wishing it was different, right?

Daniela: [00:33:37] Yeah. No, definitely. You've just completely hit the nail on the head with what you said. And it was, she just doesn't have the capacity. And I think just either deciding, are you going to see her? If you do want to see her, you're just going to have to accept, yeah, just completely accept her for who she is. And it was interesting because I left that day. I actually left my headphones at my mum's, so I had to go back a few days later to get them.

Jeanne: [00:34:00] Interesting. Divine intervention.

Daniela: [00:34:04] It was just, it was quite, yeah, we just watched a film together, you know, we didn't talk about anything like deep, but it just kind of.

Jeanne: [00:34:10] You’ve got to put your toe in the water first before you exit the pond. Right.

Daniela: [00:34:14] This is true. But just that little bit of normality, just kind of watching a film together. And then she put a blanket on me because I was a bit cold. So, yeah, it was, it was nice.

Jeanne: [00:34:24] Oh, that's sweet. No expectations other than being in the moment, right? Like this is just the moment it fell into our lap. We're going to take care of it right now and we're going to be in it.

Daniela: [00:34:37] And I guess we'll never really know. You know, we'll never know what they all went through. And this isn't you know, I'm not excusing but we don't know what kind of traumas they've had. They wouldn't have had any of the interventions that we have these days. You know, there wasn't really any therapy. You just kind of got on with life. And I don't know, maybe there's that compassion for all for their unhealed stuff as well.

Jeanne: [00:35:02] Well, that I think is the self-actualized healer. Personally, I've experienced it and I don't think many people still understand it, that as you evolve and grow and heal, you can hold space for your pain and still have compassion for someone who really didn't know better or could do better. Right? Because it's not that you and I… there's this old, I guess, belief or narrative that if you forgive, you're accepting what is happening as being okay, which is not what we're saying. They're not the same thing. I talk about this often, but I give you another example where my mother was dying. I remember feeling incredibly happy and incredibly sad at the same time. Happy for who I was and how I was showing up in my life, especially to her, because it was challenging for me, but sad because I was losing my mother, and I knew. And I was really astonished, like how you can hold space for two things at the same time. It was really like, I was like my… get my head around it, but if we can, it's not an either or. I think we've been bought into the narrative, if you think like this, you can't have that. And what about holding space for “and”. I can be happy and I can feel sad. Yeah, I can forgive and I can still hold space for me.

Daniela: [00:36:35] I think that's so important. And it's taken me a really long time to get to that point.

Jeanne: [00:36:41] Oh well, for sure. It's hard work, as you know. It's about being in your own integrity in every aspect of your world, of your life with yourself before others, because we can fool others, especially if we're skilled in, you know, addiction. We've learned how to lie, to manipulate, to coerce. You know, we're really skilled at that. But pulling one over yourself is a whole different ball game. Right? So, you know, you can't fool yourself. You got to live with yourself, unfortunately.

Daniela: [00:37:12] I know.

Jeanne: [00:37:14] So talk to me a little bit about your new book, very high level. You're not talking to me, actually, you're talking to other people, the listeners. What can they expect from you? Because maybe just give them a hybrid of what Not My Shame is if someone's new to you or they're not familiar and where you're going with it.

Daniela: [00:37:33] So Not My Shame was the first half of the book was called The Dark, and it was my own personal story. And the second half of the book was called The Light. And it kind of talked a little bit about all the different healing modalities that I kind of went through. So like a bit of a guide for people. This second book is slightly different, and it's a bit less of my own personal story because I work with survivors. I coach survivors as well. So it's kind of a little bit, maybe a little bit more universal in the sense that it's not, you know, not just my story. And just looking at the kind of the wisdom that we kind of gain through this process. And it is that journey to kind of inner peace. There's some days I feel like, you know, I've got more inner peace than others, but it's definitely that process towards the inner peace, the kind of forgiveness, the letting go. Yeah. From Disorder to Inner Peace was the subtitle, or is the subtitle.

Jeanne: [00:38:29] Beautiful. So the first one is more a hybrid of your story and resources. And the second one is more universal to people who have been on a self-development journey and just moving beyond their trauma and their grief.

Daniela: [00:38:44] Yeah. And there's, I mean, there's a chapter, you know, about why me? Why is it, why is it so hard to let it go? I mean, we talked about internalization earlier on the call of like, why we internalize. There's a lot of like nervous system kind of practices and just finding that space between, you know, the stimulus and the response. When you take the breath that you don't automatically react, and to pause. And that kind of sacred pause where you can choose your response, which is really, you know, important as well. I guess all the little nuggets of wisdom that I've kind of found throughout this journey.

Jeanne: [00:39:18] That's beautiful that you put it into a guide like that. I think it's handy, and I think it's necessary because we don't know. Some of this sounds so fundamental, like that pause between, you know, stimulus and response. But that is a difference between your life being completely different or not. But people don't recognize that when we're talking and it sounds so generic, like it sounds like, okay, just breathe. Right? Breathe, breathe, breathe. Right. We know that, but we're not good at doing things that we know. So there's a difference, right? So I think it's the same thing with that. When you talked about that sacred pause, I’m going, hmm. We've all been there where we've just kind of overridden it, you know? So learning to get comfortable with that, the more times you do that, the more you're rewiring your neural pathways, which means then you actually are creating a new habit that sticks.

Daniela: [00:40:11] And I think sometimes if you just automatically respond then, you know, you just escalate any little conflicts or, but sometimes just, yeah, just taking that pause and just choosing how to react or not. Or like not bickering with your partner or just saying, oh, well, you did this and da da da. And just escalating it all. But I suppose I've learned not to take everything so personally. Like before, everything would, like, hurt me or I'd just kind of feel it that that kind of wounding. But I've just, I don't know, just with the practice and, you know, the repetition, you know, to not take everything so personally.

Jeanne: [00:40:45] Well, I agree with you. I used to take everything so personally, but that's part of your inner child healing. And those parts of us that are wounded become a more integrated right into us as a whole that, you know, you can recognize that you're not six anymore in this moment. You're now a young adult woman, right? Or a young adult, or you're a woman, mature woman who's experiencing this and you experience it through a very different lens. But when we start to do this work, it feels like we're six years old or eight years old at the time. And it's very, that, and we're trapped in that until we release that.

Daniela: [00:41:24] As you were talking, I just thought. Just a little example, like a couple of years back, I was running workshops and I went up to my husband and I was like, really excited. I was like, oh, someone signed up for my workshop. And he was like looking in the cupboard. And he was just talking about like, why do you keep opening these packets and not finishing them? And I just like burst into tears because it was that feeling of like, you know, when you're really excited and you want to tell someone something and you're like, dismissed. And his mind was just somewhere completely, you know, else. And I just like started crying, but, but I can see that like, I can see that obviously he was, you know, doing something else. And it wasn't that personal really, but yeah, it's that kind of.

Jeanne: [00:42:03] But in that moment, you were probably that little girl who felt disappointed again, right? For not being recognized or not being validated of what's going on for you, that's important to you. So that took you back in a flash. So…

Daniela: [00:42:18] Yeah. But also celebrating ourselves. You know, I don't know, having that ability to like, yes, like we did it like we wrote a book. Like how awesome is that? Like, wanted to write this book for like 20 years. And it's kind of, yeah, just to really kind of celebrate yourselves. And I think sometimes we forget we’re just, oh, we'll go on to the next thing. Oh, we'll just write the next book. But yeah, just kind of celebrating as we go as well, which is a great reminder to myself as I'm talking.

Jeanne: [00:42:42] We always, we always need our own medicine, there's no question. That's why we do what we do because we're never exonerated. So if you were to teach the novice anything from your own personal experience about your experience with ayahuasca, is there anything that surprised you about the journey or a piece of advice that you would impart with the listeners today that may be helpful for them?

Daniela: [00:43:12] I guess it was to kind of really prepare. I really, you know, spent a lot of time in nature before thinking, you know, why am I doing this? What's my intention? And it was interesting because when I signed up for the second time, I felt the medicine was working already, and I started letting go of some of my sort of lower paid work. And I kind of call it endurance work. And I think, you know, when you're really used to enduring. And I was like, why am I still teaching these classes that pay me so much less than the other stuff that I do? And it's kind of the loyalty to the people that come to the class. And I don't know. And then I started just slowly letting go of things. And I thought, if you're going to write a second book, you need to create space in your life. Because the first one was written squeezed into a really busy life. But the second time around, I've created space to, yeah, just for the work as well.

Jeanne: [00:44:05] That's progress, right? You're evolving.

Daniela: [00:44:08] I think it's, you know, what calls you. For some reason, I was called to ayahuasca and, and not so much the, you know, psilocybin or, you know, the kind of mushroom-based route, which people have had great results from that as well. Maybe there was a part of me that's also scared what the mushrooms might bring up, because I think it can be quite somatic as well. So maybe there was that little bit of like, oh, you know what? I guess part of me still scared, like what else do I have to release? Because the trauma that I experienced went on for a long time. So there's a, there's just a lot, a lot there.

Jeanne: [00:44:38] I think that's normal to feel apprehension and fear around what else there is. I think that's one of the reasons why I don't. And I do believe that different people need different tools at different times. So this is a judgment-free zone in respect to what we're talking about. I'm neutral about it. I think that it can be great for some people, but I do think that there's preparation and assessment required to do this properly. That's the route I would do if I was ever going to go that route. I want to be someone who has some sort of medical background, someone who has a clinical background, who can assess mental health before I would even indulge in it. Right? And I think that's sometimes missing, but it's there. It is there. I'm not a proponent for it or against it. I'm very neutral around it. But I do think that we need to be more inclusive about how people get well, because if we start to judge people based on whether there's medication assistance, whether it's psychedelics, whether it's 12 step, whether it's neuroscience, we're just creating more separation, which creates more pain and is re-wounding the very person that really wants to come back into integration with themselves and community. So I think it's really, really important that we are open-minded about the pathway people choose to get well and how they heal.

Daniela: [00:46:03] I completely agree with you. And I did take a psychedelic readiness kind of questionnaire, which had obviously lots of questions, but I did score quite highly on that with the press that I was actually very prepared and it… And I was also prepared for, you know, thinking about, you know, potentially I could have had like a really bad trip. And I've kind of looked at all the, you know, the different things that could have happened as well.

Jeanne: [00:46:30] You're mindful and intentional, like you said about it, which is absolutely critical. We need to be that way in our life more so anyway. So, but even more so at times where we're really giving up some, some aspect of control over ourselves.

Daniela: [00:46:47] And on the second place I went to, we also did like breathwork on the Friday evening when we got there and that, you know, that also kind of takes you into an altered state as well.

Jeanne: [00:46:58] I agree.

Daniela: [00:46:59] So it's not, you know, there are, there are other ways to kind of access those different, you know, levels of kind of consciousness, if you like.

Jeanne: [00:47:06] I remember doing a breathwork class where it was completely different than I have ever experienced. And I did, I exactly felt, I felt like I came out having a completely altered experience. It was intense. I wanted the experience. I worked hard at that, but so I went through it with like the earnestness of a student who wants an A+. And it was an amazing experience for me. So I understand how that can help.

Daniela: [00:47:33] And also, it's the everyday habits, which I think are more important in the sense of, you know, your whatever, you know, the meditation, if you do yoga, if you exercise, that you eat well, that you sleep enough, that you're hydrated. But I think it's these constant, you know, all those little wellbeing habits, you know, day in, day out that are the kind of, you know, the fundamentals of our sort of wellbeing. And when you let things slip and then you feel a bit, you know, you start overthinking or you feel a bit kind of crappy. But it is, I don't know, I have really realized that they're just so important and they just have to be maintained.

Jeanne: [00:48:12] Absolutely. And you know that we're a proponent of that. And that's really what holistic recovery is. It's though, all those things you talked about, which are fundamentals and also fundamentals in many areas of our life, where is there balance? Is the scale tipping too much? Like all of these areas need to be looked at so we can integrate as a whole. And that's what happens. We become fractured by the parts of us that are unhealed or broken or traumatized, depending on what we're talking about. And the journey is to integrate them back into the whole. So I want to thank you for lending your voice again. And you and me on the first one were one of the most downloaded episodes. So you have quite an audience as well. And people are interested, next to relationships with you, and next to relationships, because relationships are the ultimate mystery of the universe for a lot of us. I could go on from about that one, that's for sure. Before I leave, I ask every guest who's on this show, how do you stay naturally high?

Daniela: [00:49:22] Definitely meditation. Daily meditation, even if it's five minutes in the morning. And I do like a five-minute, sometimes it's ten minutes, but as a minimum. But ideally I like to kind of do 20-minutes. And I'm so strict with my bedtime. The kids have started going to bed later than me. I go to bed at 830 in the evening. I do start work quite early, so I kind of, I am quite up early, but I just want to, always want to make sure I get enough sleep. So definitely the sleep as well.

Jeanne: [00:49:55] I'm a different animal without sleep, so I know that about me. Absolutely. So, but I'm not going to bed as early as you. So that's something to improve upon. There you go.

Daniela: [00:50:04] But obviously whatever, you know, whatever works for people. But I definitely getting making sure that you do get enough but consistently enough as well.

Jeanne: [00:50:13] Amazing. Thank you so much, Daniela, for being on Naturally High. I just love your wisdom. I love the fact that you're on the other side of the ocean, and we still connect on a regular basis, and we still have so much in common, even though we're so different. So that's part of our common humanity. We're more alike than different. And I say that to people who are listening today. May they be people. May their common humanity be the drive that wants them to connect with one another rather than separate.

Daniela: [00:50:47] No, definitely. I totally agree, and I would love to invite you as a guest on my new podcast, which is called Post-Traumatic Wisdom. So I'd love you to be a guest with us so you can share all your wisdom.

Jeanne: [00:51:00] Thank you. I might put it in a book. I keep talking about it, but each time I listen to you more and more and more, I am inspired. I go, oh my God, I do have a book in me. I just haven't really put it down on paper. So maybe it's time to do that, because I think you probably would recognize this. And we find that there's the same lessons. Not meaning your lessons are my lessons. But I mean that we say the same things over and over again in different ways. And that's the basis of a good sort of foundation or a growth plan that you are saying the same things. You are doing the same things you haven't really deviated and making things up on the fly kind of thing. There's room for innovation. I'm not saying there's not, but we're definitely evolving. So yes, I'd love to be a guest on your podcast. So please.

Daniela: [00:51:46] And I can't wait to read your book as well.

Jeanne: [00:51:48] Okay. Well, now you're giving me something to do. I'm going to do that outline that you told me about. Okay, so until next time, everybody, stay naturally high. It has been an absolute pleasure to have you today, Daniela, thank you so much. And we look forward to hearing about your new release in June on Post-Traumatic Stress Day.

Daniela: [00:52:09] Thank you.

Jeanne: [00:52:11] Thank you for joining me for this episode of Naturally High. If this conversation resonated with you, I'd love to hear your thoughts. Please leave a rating and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or reach out to me through the links in the show notes. Together, we're changing the way the world approaches mental health, addiction, and trauma. Remember to like, subscribe, and leave a rating for Naturally High on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen so you never miss an episode. For more inspiration and resources, follow me on Instagram @threcovery_concierge or visit therecoveryconcierge.com. Stay empowered, keep rising, and I'll see you in the next episode.