Defining Hospitality

Joining the show this week is a hospitality professional who creates distinct projects that make emotional connections with guests. Please welcome to the show, Senior Director of Design & Construction Services at Kempinski, Vibha Sawhney.

Vibha joins Host Dan Ryan to discuss how she creates luxury projects that meet the needs of owners. Vibha also shares the importance of collaborative empathy, the value of meticulous attention to detail, and explores Kempinski's unique approach to luxury.


Takeaways
  • Hospitality involves providing the highest level of service where the guest is considered supreme. For an architect, design and architecture are tools to craft unforgettable and comfortable memories for guests, emphasizing their supreme importance.
  • To gain hands-on experience and a deeper understanding of materials, immerse yourself in working alongside skilled tradespeople like carpenters and metal workers. Understanding how they work allows you to better utilize a material in planning. 
  • The key to success is selecting the right partners who will give proper attention to your projects and act with empathy toward the end-users. It is essential to work collaboratively to achieve the best results and support the owner's vision.
  • A successful property requires exceptional service across all locations and maintaining high standards in essential areas like breakfast and room comfort. Consideration must be given to space constraints, ensuring comfortable environments in smaller spaces.
  • While many brands have a clear and defined aesthetic that should be designed for, your job is ultimately to work with an owner to tie their vision together. Successful collaboration blends both brand design and owner desires. 
  • Hotels are ultimately an ecosystem that requires collaboration between various functions and backgrounds to function properly. Collaboration can only happen if empathetic understanding is found between employees. 


Quote of the Show:
  • “We are really open to understanding what the owner and the owner's team wants to do in a project.” - Vibha Sawhney


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Creators & Guests

Host
Dan Ryan
Host of Defining Hospitality

What is Defining Hospitality?

Welcome to Defining Hospitality, the podcast focused on highlighting the most influential figures in the hospitality industry. In each episode we provide 1 on 1, in depth interviews with experts in the industry to learn what hospitality means to them. We feature expert advice on working in the industry, behind the scenes looks at some of your favorite brands, and in depth explorations of unique hospitality projects.

Defining Hospitality is hosted by Founder and CEO of Agency 967, Dan Ryan. With over 30 years of experience in hospitality, Dan brings his expertise and passion to each episode as he delves into the latest trends and challenges facing the industry.

Episodes are released every week on Wednesday mornings.

To listen to episodes, visit https://www.defininghospitality.live/ or subscribe to Defining Hospitality wherever you get your podcasts.

Dan: Today's guest is a hospitality professional who creates distinct projects that make emotional connections with guests. She connects people from different regions and cultures to build new and inspiring luxury projects. She has over 20 years of global experience in hospitality design. She's the Senior Director of Design and Construction Services at Kempinski, based in Dubai. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome. Vibha Sawani. Welcome, Vibha.

Vibha: Thank you, Dan. Thank you so much. It's a pleasure to be here.

Dan: It's so wonderful to have you here from halfway around the world. I know it's a little late for you. Um, but I think I always like in the beginning of these to let everyone know what's most exciting or really like lights me up about the guests that I have on and I've been doing this podcast, I think it'll be about three years in August, and it's amazing to me how much it grows, because like, we're in a very niche world of hospitality, design, hotels, entrepreneurship, um, but it just amazes me the, how it's been resonating and growing over the years. Um, and a former, and just by word of mouth, and to, to find you and be introduced to you by a former guest, Kristen Connery, who I guess you guys worked at Hyatt together?

Vibha: Uh, yes, we did.

Dan: correct? So it's, again, it's like one of those word of mouth, um, connections that, um, I get new people listening to this all the time.

I meet new, amazing guests from here. And it's almost like this flywheel of just amazing people and inspiration and being able to share other people's stories from around the world to shorten other people's journeys or give them experience. So I'm just super grateful to All of the listeners, um, additionally to Kristen for introducing us and also for you for being here from Dubai.

So thank you, Viva. Thank you.

Vibha: The pleasure is all mine, Dan. Thank you so much. I'm also quite grateful to Kristen for being, um, not just my mentor at that particular time in Hyatt, but for being such a good friend and being in touch all over these years. Um, so I'm very Very happy that you made the introduction to you and that we're here today talking.

It's always nice to meet new people and learn.

Dan: yes, and additionally, um, as far as In the world or realm of hospitality, you know, there's always a spectrum from select service to luxury, ultra luxury. And it's just so nice to be able to speak to people from the entire spectrum and you and Kempinski coming from the luxury side. And I'm sure I don't want to influence the conversation at all, but I'm sure that will color a lot of. Kind of what we talk about and what makes you and Kempinski, um, special and unique within our, within our, um, universe of hospitality. But before we get into that, I just wanted to ask you. Vibha, like what does hospitality mean to you? How, what, what does it mean to you? And what's keeping you in it and, and keeping you inspired to do amazing things.

Vibha: Thank you, Dan. Um, it's a very thought provoking question, I must admit. So, So, you know, hospitality, uh, in my eyes is, um, it's the highest level of service that one can provide. Um, and this is where guest is considered supreme. And as an architect, um, for me, design and architecture are really tools that are used to craft.

Memories for our guests. Memorable memories, comfortable memories, where guest is really considered supreme. That's what it means to me.

Dan: And actually it's interesting. So you're, are you, you're originally from India, correct?

Vibha: I am, I am an Indian, yes.

Dan: we had a, I had another guest on previously also from India and he had a similar. That idea of guest being supreme, and I think he said guest is God, but is that, how is that, for you to say guest is supreme, I'd love to unpack that and learn more about what that means, but is that, do you think that that's from your, your background or your heritage or growing up in India?

Um,

Vibha: know, Dan, absolutely, um, it's rooted in our culture. There is a saying that says, Atithi Deva Bhava, which means God is, sorry, guest is God. And we live in our houses amongst our families and friends, um, this phrase. So, you know, if there's food cooked at home and an uninvited guest arrives at home, he will be fed before we are fed.

It's, it's a simple rule of the house. So I've grown up seeing that. I have grown up seeing my parents being so hospitable, welcoming people into the house, invited, uninvited, considering them as family and making sure they're really, kept comfortable. Um, so I think you're absolutely, absolutely right that this is deeply ingrained in our culture, in our roots, and, um, and this is where we come from.

Um, and it shows somewhere, and I'm glad that, you know, I have a service to offer, um, in what I do, and that links back to my roots. Atithi.

Dan: can you say the saying again? A T D? A T D? A

Vibha: I may not say it correctly, my pronunciation may not be absolutely

Dan: That's okay, I butchered your name too, so I apologize.

Vibha: No problem.

And is God, um, and is God-like, I may not be able, I mean, I mean I may not be translating it absolutely correctly as well, honestly, Dan. Uh, but that's what

Dan: That's quite all right, I get the point. The reason why I was asking is, I did this really cool retreat many moons ago called the Hoffman Process. And one of my fellow people on this retreat was, her name was A T D. And I'm wondering That would mean guest. Yeah. Okay.

I'm going to follow up with her. It's a good reason to, to, uh, reconnect.

Um, so I know that you just said that this ignited a passion with you and it's the, the service or the vocation that, that you're doing, but really I think it's the, um, what I'm picking up from you is it's your passion, right? To be able to be an architect to create these spaces, to create the connection and foster the connection of people. Um, on your journey, how did you know that this vocation also aligned with your passion? When you, when you started off in architecture, did you see yourself doing hotels or were you, did you see yourself doing something else? And then you tried many things and then found your way into hotels. How did you find that passion, that intersection of your passion and your purpose?

Vibha: Right? Um, it's interesting that you asked that, um, because I will give you an non-typical answer. I did not know that this was my passion until. Um, so I think what I really did follow was my inner calling and I just made choices that led me to work on hotels. And, and, and, and I finally realized that it links back to, um, what I want to do.

It links back to my purest self and what I want to continue to do as service. Um, I chose architecture because it offered the best combination of subjects. I was interested in art, I was interested in math, I was interested in science. It seemed to be the best combination of subjects. Um, I went on to do interior design because I wanted to see results in shorter timelines.

So it's very strange the way that I've made choices, I'll be honest with you. Um, but, uh, there's beauty in honesty. I, I believe so.

Dan: so. I'm actually very intrigued by that because there's many, you know, I have a lot of architects, a lot of designers, a lot of designers who become architects, architects who become designers. Um, and it's interesting. I think that was the first time that I've heard someone say it was, it was almost the, uh, Yeah. The timing or the bringing of a project to market, that speed to opening is what drew you or kept you into interior design.

Tell us more about that. Like how did you,

How did you, or when did you figure that out versus working on a, on a longer term architectural project?

Vibha: Yes, sure. So, soon after architecture school, I started working, um, with a famous architect in Delhi, and we were working on the metro projects, metro stations of Delhi, along with some office buildings. Um, and I was there for two years. And I realized I'm never going to see the end product. It will take, you know, maybe five years, a decade to see the end product.

And, and considering the time of my life, I was in my 20s, fresh out of college, I wanted to see, I was impatient to see the result of my creativity or where I was being involved in. And two, I have the tendency to be very detailed and to really be very meticulous and absolutely very detailed. And, and I felt, um, I felt a need to, um, go into the finest details of a project.

I would kept going into, um, I would kept zooming in, let's put it like that. And then there just came an opportunity where, um, A retail interior manufacturing firm was looking at, at some professionals joining their team so they would be able to, um, design and, you know, not just borrow designs and manufacture and create spaces, but be able to originally design as well.

And I thought this was a great opportunity.

Dan: just so I'm clear that the retail manufacturing, it would have been, uh, store fixtures or some kind of luxury hot higher end, like

racks and displays and.

Okay. Got it.

Vibha: And they had their own factories and they had their own workshops. Um, So I was just very, um, you know, I was very intrigued by learning on the ground, and which is why I chose to join them, um, with, you know, really sitting with carpenters, sitting with metal workers, sitting with forgers, understanding how these materials work, and then being able to see, um, how, you know, all of it comes together, and I mean, and retail is the other spectrum of, um, Uh, short timelines, right?

I mean, it's, uh, you know, the design today and it's built yesterday. So it's really fast. It's a different spectrum altogether. Um, and, and then I just, um, I stuck to that for some time and then I got married. We moved to Dubai. Um, the first job opportunity that I got was, uh, Commercial interiors, and I really enjoyed myself there.

It led on to residential interiors, a bit of commercial interiors, and when the first hospitality project started coming into that company, um, I think because I was sensitive or very detail oriented, those were given to me. And that led on to hospitality. Um, I moved on from there. I took a break when my son was born.

Um, I was looking for part time work at that time. The only company that was ready to offer part time work in Dubai was this hospitality design firm where a friend of mine was working. And so I started working there and it just so happened that, um, I continued working there full time and I was designing hotels for Hyatt, um, with the firm, you know, um, really enjoyed myself, realized

Dan: firm was that?

Vibha: it was called Samuel Creations, um, at that point of time and it no longer exists.

Um, the company was sold. And, uh, yeah, so, but I was, uh, I was there and, um, during that transition, when they were selling the company, Hyatt was looking at expansion and that's when they approached me to join the team. And, uh, you know, so, uh, one thing led to the other. So what I'm trying to get at is I must admit that, you know, um, these are just.

choices that have come my way and I've made them. They were really not driven by a vision that I had of where I want to be or what I want to do. Um, and, But I must also admit that being at Hyatt and being on the other side of the table, um, I realized that this is what I enjoy doing the most. Um, and this is what relates deeply into what my beliefs are.

I'm able to offer a service. I'm able to use the tools that I've learned along the way to create a better product, to create a better experience for For the guests, for the users of the space. Yes. So, yeah,

Dan: So I'm, I'm I'm intrigued by a couple of things and especially like for the listeners who are early in their career or thinking about where they want to go. Like we're all given, we all have choices, um, architecture, interior design, you know, just for your, your decision tree. And, um, what's interesting is when we go to work, oftentimes we're given a job to do, And we just have to do that job.

We're, we're not given a lot of. leeway often to kind of say, Oh, I don't like that one. I want to work on this one. Like you're, you have a job, you got a job, you got to do it. But I'm also really intrigued by many guests that we have. Again, you're not alone in that this is, you didn't know where your passion and purpose would intersect, but. You were able to direct yourselves to the things within your vocation that interested you. So that's getting into the details and the, the meticulous details and diving in. So from earlier in, earlier in your career, how did you kind of direct your attention to, how were you able to, um, get the permission to be able to dive into what interested you?

Vibha: I mean, look, I think it's a personality trait that when people around you are working with you, they just realize what you're into. Um, I mean, I remember as an intern architect, I was asked to do, um, uh, stone wall detailing, for example. And I remember spending days where somebody could have done it in half a day to do it, but I wanted to get it right.

And, um, and you know, I think, I think people around you notice. And, um, I'm just very grateful that I've always also had very, um, very good people around me who've, um, who've encouraged me by dialogue, who've, um, who've invigorated me, in me, my sense of passion for, um, creating beautiful spaces. And I mean, beautiful in terms of what is comfortable for, for people.

And I really believe, and, and this is where everybody, you know, thinks that I have a minor OCD, but I really believe that if, if I have Paid the attention to detail. It is going to, you know, somehow it, the, the person using it is going to sensitive eventually.

Dan: I think it's people would see the hierarchy of where you work. They saw you paying attention or spending all that time really working out the details on that stonewall project that you were designing. and that's actually super interesting because, like, you're very detailed. You're going there.

But then I'm also intrigued because you mentioned Sitting on the other side of the table. So where you are now from the Hyatt, from the ownership slash brand side or at Kempinski, my opinion of that is okay. You details are important in everything we do, but oftentimes at the, at that higher level of brand or owner, oftentimes. You don't have the ability to get into the details that much,

or you have to pick and choose which ones.

So how do You yeah, how do you reconcile that? How do you, at the higher level of brand, how do you still, um, kind of feed that desire? to dig into the details. Where do you get your, where are you focusing your attention when you're able to look at the details?

Vibha: Um, it's a very good question and I think, um. I think choosing the right partners helps. So it's, it's as if you're, um, you're outsourcing the work to the right people who would also give the right attention to the project. And to, um, the nature of going into so much detail and always thinking of the guest using, using the space is empathy.

So I think collaborative empathy is super important. Um, and as you go higher up in the, um, in the career journey, um, you, and especially in a, in a, in a, as a global citizen, you have to, empathize with different, um, different ideas of whether it's owners or architects or interior designers and work collaboratively, collaboratively to, to tap the west, tap the best and, um, and work with the right partners, support the owner's vision with the right partners who also believe in driving towards a great product.

Um, that's the only way to do it. Um, You know, and personally, I mean, I think I, I, uh, I do look into interior design detailing a bit more than most other operators of my, um, um, of the same level, and I have been told that by certain interior designers. We don't have any operator

Dan: You're designing a stonewall again!

Vibha: I'm designing a stone wall again.

So recently was at, um, at the launch of Marina Residences, which was designed by, um, which is designed by IDA. It's just recently launched and, um, and the interior designer was there as well. And they're like, you know, we really enjoy working with you, but we, we don't, because once we receive an email from you, we are worried about what it's going to be about.

What have you caught this time? Um, yeah, but I think, I think people do appreciate, um, Uh, the attention because it also comes out of, you know, not, it doesn't come out of ego. It comes out of working towards a good project. So it comes out of appreciation of, um, of the other person's ideas, um, and adding value to it based on, uh, our experience.

Dan: you know, I, I want to dig in a little bit into this idea of choosing the right partners. Cause I think you just mentioned that IDA, um, designed the, the Marina, the Marina based, uh, suites you mentioned.

Okay. Marina Suites,

Vibha: Residences.

Dan: I'm sorry, Marina Residences. Um, so that's as far as choosing the right partners who are actually executing the work. But when I think of Kempinski, the first thing that comes to my mind is luxury, right? And also I think you may own a couple of the properties that, um, in your portfolio, but really from an international scale of luxury, You're partnering with ownership groups all over the globe, correct?

So how do you choose the right partners? As a steward ownership groups, like, so as, as, as to make sure that those ownership groups are also gonna, um, I dunno, just accept or be aligned with your stewardship of what that Kempinski luxury experience is, because I'm sure you must get a ton of inbounds from ownership groups saying, Oh, I want to do a Kempinski. And in a certain light, you have to balance what their vision is. Cause if they're doing a luxury hotel, like they're probably spending a ton of money or more than normal. They have their own vision, but how do you make sure that the Kempinski luxury vision and the ownership vision are aligned?

Vibha: it's a better question for my development team to answer, to be honest,

Dan: Mm hmm.

Vibha: because they're the ones who get approached for most of the leads. Um, nonetheless, um, You see the filtration, you do filter potential requests for projects based on location, owner profile, you know, what they've built before, and of course understanding what their vision is.

But in terms of marrying owner's vision to what we want to create as Kempinski, what I would like to say is Kempinski is offering opulent luxury, but it can be classical, it can be contemporary, it can be in the city, it can be in the resort, a resort on the top of the hills or by the beach.

The location and the demographic makes a lot of difference on what the project needs to eventually achieve. Um, what Kempinski is trying to make sure from a project and brand consistency is that the DNA is consistent in all these projects. And the DNA is impeccable service. It is the use of quality materials.

It is the, um, the space that one is creating, the bright, uh, the brand touch points that come through in a space. It is all of that. Um, and our job is to make sure when we're liaising with the owner, we, we tie their vision and this together.

Dan: I think of Kempinski, I think of luxury. That's the first thing that comes to the top of my mind. You own a couple of your hotels, but most of them are partnerships with other ownership groups internationally from. You know, You name the continent, except maybe Antarctica. You're not an Antarctica, correct.

Vibha: no,

Dan: That's the only one you're not in. I think you're in every other continent. Is that safe to say? Mm-Hmm.

Vibha: um, pretty much. I mean, Kempinski is, um, an 80, 80 plus hotel company. It's not as, um, massive as the Marriott's and the Hyatt's and the Hilton's. Um, so we're not everywhere. Um, but yes, luxury in every different continent or every different country is interpreted differently.

Dan: Would it be, say, say, would it be safe to say that of the 80 odd properties that you guys have in every continent except Antarctica, that you're in many different locations? Many different cultures, but many different ownership groups, many different partnerships. But this idea of luxury or opulent luxury is somehow threaded throughout all of them.

And there has to be a buy in from all of your stakeholders to make sure that you're delivering on that Kempinski promise. So from a design perspective, with this global footprint that you have, how do you, like, how do you make sure that everyone is aligned and bought in and that the, from a design perspective, that That everyone is executing.

Vibha: Sure, absolutely. So, you know, it's an internal joke in our department that our brand guidelines are very thin. but what that means is there are not many rules set in stone. And we are really open to understand what the owner and the owner's team wants to do in a project. Um, what the constant DNA is the sense of space. The quality of materials and the brand touch points. So what is very important to Kempinski in the public areas is an amazing lobby lounge experience. The Lady in Red, the concierge services, you know, things. Touch points that are able to provide a personalized service to the guest. I mean, it's all about the service you provide to the guests coming to your property, right? And, and that thread needs to be present in, in all our properties. The second most important thing for Kempinski would be serving breakfast properly. Again, that thread is very important to be present in all properties. And then when you go to the rooms, I mean, we're, you know, to be honest, we're doing many apartments, many residences now as well.

And, and in fact, most of my projects currently are, um, are residences, um, where the hotel experience can be brought through. So I can say very confidently that when you go, once you enter the hotel guest room and the hotel apartment, it is about, or a residence, it's again about making sure you have a comfortable place to be.

To, to live, right? To really live, um, you know, if it's an apartment, a comfortable living space, dining space, kitchen space, a luxurious bathroom, having the option to shower or take a tub bath, um, If it's a hotel room, you know, a very comfortable bed, a place to work, a place to lounge, um, and of course a great bathroom experience.

Um, it is a fact that if you go down in the size of the room, you may not be able to give all the touch points that we need to give, need to provide. Having said that, if you're building a property in New York or London or Paris, you may not be able to achieve the kind of space that you can achieve in Middle East or Africa.

Um, and then, and, and then the DNA is made. consistent by how well those spaces are articulated to provide all those touch points, how well the materials are played with to make the volume, um, look, appear larger than it is. And that's where the sensitivity and partnership of the right designer is critical for the project. I would say, for example, um, you know, uh, so this is in terms of planning, um, and in terms of design aesthetics, it's completely driven by the location, by what the owner wants to, wants to provide in, in that space. So we, we don't dictate the colors, we don't dictate a theme. It is really, dependent on the owner's vision of what he wants to create for that property.

I mean, you look at properties and how varied they are. If you see the one in Turkey, the Masurian Palace, it's an Ottoman Imperial Palace, which is now being renovated. It's been with Kempinski. It's a landmark property for us. It's been with Kempinski for many years. I'm yet to visit that property. Um, nonetheless, it's um, um It's beautiful and it's, it's, it may not be to my taste, but it is to the owner's taste.

It is so opulent. It is with, um, with details of the Ottoman Empire and the Turkish culture embedded into that property in every corner, in every space. And this is just, uh, by seeing pictures that I've seen. I mean, I've been with Kempinski for, you know, just, just a year. I haven't been to all the properties as yet.

Um, but it's, it's absolutely stunning. And And in contrast, if you look at the property in Engelberg, which is a ski resort, it's a very small property. But if you just look at the rooms, it is completely different from what we've achieved at, uh, in, in, in, um, in Istanbul. It's completely different. It's minimalistic.

It's got, um, attention to detail. It is simple. It's got the best. Leathers and the best materials, um, in play with each other. It, it, it really encourages you to look outside and, and see the outs and, and realize where you, where you are located. Um, you know, uh, we're doing the Kempinski Residences in Dubai, which is, um, which is for a Swiss property group.

And I've never met an owner that is so involved in a project. He takes his project as his personal house, and he keeps telling me, even if, you know, I may just have one residence, but I want to make sure. The comfort that I have in my residence is provided to every resident in my building. And it's amazing.

He doesn't need to do it. But it's that mentality and that cooperation that is, um, in sync with what we want to achieve. Um, and it's amazing. And it's going to be a beautiful project. We're just waiting for it to open next year. A stunning location, very modern architecture, very modern interior design, absolutely stunning.

So, I mean, these are just a few examples of how varied projects can be aesthetically, depending on owners visions, and how you can see you know, the main brand experience that one expects when you go to Kempinski, prevalent in whether it's a residence or a hotel, and it's prevalent all across. Yeah, I don't know, maybe I spoke too

Dan: that's wonderful to hear. And then, no, no, it's, it's great. No, I love it. And then, so you're catering to every group, every location, but I'm also intrigued, how does, what's the Kempinski way to serve breakfast?

Vibha: What is the Kempinski way to serve breakfast? A large breakfast buffet. It's the German way of serving breakfast. So breakfast buffet and, um, a large

Dan: And how does, how does the Kempinski breakfast buffet differ from other buffets that are out there?

Vibha: I think the, um, the quality of food is never compromised. The, um, array of, um, of, uh, display is never compromised. And, you know, I, if I compare it with maybe a Pakhayat or a Mandarin or a Four Seasons, I would say they might all be at par with how breakfast is served. But what I'm trying to imply here is food. is very important to Kempinski. I mean, it is a German brand and, um, just the, just the, um, the German breakfast is very important and we will never compromise in, you know, if compromises are to be made to a project, we will never compromise in not giving the correct breakfast experience to the guest.

Dan: I love it. One other thing I wanted to dig into that you mentioned earlier, this idea of, uh, collaborative empathy. What does collaborative empathy mean to you? Because I think so much of hospitality is Meeting others where they are and in order to do that effectively you have to have Empathy is at the, you have to score high on the spectrum of empathy in order to do that It's that some people call it the hospitality gene or the hospitality quotient I think Danny Meyer refers to it as but when you mentioned it earlier, I got that feeling that there was a almost or a system around how to based on who your guest is or who all the stakeholders are that are experiencing the Kimpinski brand. How do you ascertain what that collaborative empathy is?

Vibha: I believe hotels, um, are a very large ecosystem and for them to function well and, uh, hospitality service to be at its best for its guests, this ecosystem really needs to function well. It's, it's so interdependent on various functions, you know, so you need the designer, you need the architect, you need the engineer, but you also need the finance, you also need the front office person, you also need the chef, you also need the housekeeper.

It is, it is an ecosystem which is where if, if one aspect does not work very well, it will It can start collapsing or it can start changing. And for any ecosystem to work very well, one has to collaborate, um, in the best possible way. And in today's scenario, you know, we're, we're already mixing so many ecosystems together with different nationalities, different cultures, different visions, different expectations.

If one lacks empathy, we will not be able to collaborate effectively. And if you're not able to collaborate effectively without this essential link, um, we will not be able to give the right hospitality experience to, to our guests. And we will really be doing them a disservice. I think that's what I meant when I said collaborative empathy.

So it's not just internal, but it is with. all the players in the project, internal and

external.

Dan: even, I also think that even though, um, You may have said, Oh, that might be a better question for, uh, for the development side. I think that really what that collaborative empathy is, is understanding who all of the stakeholders are in a project and what the location is and who the guests are and who the ownership group is and who the.

The designers that, and architects, and all the consultants that, that you may have a hand in, in hiring or, or, and coaching to the Kempinski level of opulent luxury, no matter where it is in the world, to be collaborative on an, on an empathetic level, on such a grand international scale, at such a high level is, that's like, uh, It just seems very complicated to me and difficult to do.

But it, I think it's also the most critical thing that you can do because you have, you, you can't leave any space or misunderstanding, um, between all of the stakeholders and what you're trying to accomplish.

Vibha: No, you're absolutely right. And this is where communication is key. This is where empathy is key and understanding. You know, and this is where, if you remember our past conversation, I mentioned Kempinski takes pride in saying that we don't have an ego, no ego policy. And I think it is so amazing, um, that You know what, what it entails there that we are not trying to enforce a brand.

All that we are trying to do is understand, communicate and, and, and try and work together on a project to, to make sure the European, the DNA of the European luxury comes, comes through. Um. And I think when I joined Kempinski a year ago, um, I think this stayed with me. There's no ego, um, it has just stayed with me and I realize it more and more working closely with my, um, you know, with my, uh, with my boss, with my other colleagues who've been with the company for a very long time.

Their approach is really collaborative. It is not, you know, and I come from Hyatt and we, you know, we, we maybe work differently from the bigger Marriotts, et cetera. And, uh, we are, we are slightly flexible. We were slightly flexible. I mean, with my time with Hyatt, but, um, this is a different level. This is really where you're understanding what you want to achieve, but taking two steps back and really understanding what the owner wants to achieve, and then trying to marry it together.

I don't know how to explain it better, but, um, it's Yes,

Dan: because if I hear you, it's that idea of no ego is actually really interesting for a brand because a brand, In the most general sense, and there's some people who are also argue that brand is dead. Right now, it comes down to how do you find deeper personal connection with your customers or guests, right?

And it's not so much about the brand, which sometimes a brand, um, can just be taking Right. a subpar product and putting it through a brand machine to give it some standards or connection to other things in a brand portfolio. And I'm speaking more to product than I am to hospitality, but it's, uh, and to try and tap into the marketplace that way.

But if, if you go with that idea, and I don't think brand is dead by any means, but I, I do think that like, There's a spectrum, but if you go with that idea that brand is dead, you really have to connect with the stakeholders and the guests in particular, the customers to have no ego and to really meet them where they are in whatever environment you're trying to do in whatever kind of experience you're trying to convey without going through a branding machine. The Kempinski logo might be the same, but if I'm listening to you, I haven't been to the 80 properties. I think I've been to one. It's really about differentiating and finding that connection for the people who are seeking out that level of opulent luxury, but not necessarily through. A traditional idea of what a brand is, but more in, in, in an experience, an egoless experience,

Vibha: you're absolutely right. It is. I mean, like I said earlier, it is the personalized experience that we want to be able to give the guests that walks into the property. And that is what we want to try and achieve. So it is the experience that we're targeting. It is the experience. to its fullest, whether it is, um, uh, at a beach, whether it is at a ski resort, whether it is in the city, you know, it is the experience that we want to achieve, which is consistent, um, across these properties.

Dan: just to go back to that idea of brand is dead on one end of a spectrum on the other end of a spectrum brand, if done well, unlocks and creates so much value as well. Right. And that's like when you look at multiples and valuations of companies, a really, really strong brand that's executed really well, that adds tremendous value.

Market capitalization and, and value from a, from a financial perspective, if done well. So I, again, I think if I'm talking to you and thinking about this out loud, I just feel like there's a place for, for everyone. There's a place for every kind of experience, but ultimately,

Vibha: You've

Dan: know, it's really about understanding who all the stakeholders are and meeting them where they are. you know, Vibha, it's been really cool to hear about your experience. And to where you are now at, at, um, at Kempinski, but as you look forward being there a year and you look at all the things that you've done and all the projects and the exciting opportunity that lay that's out there in the future, what's exciting you?

The most as you look forward into the future.

Vibha: you know, I'm, I'm driven by what I do every single day. Um, and I want to keep doing exactly the same thing in the future as well. So I think when I'm not able to travel and I'm, I'm going to be, you know, when I'm not able to travel, I would. still be working as a consultant, perhaps, or I, my dream is to eventually have my own cafe with a pottery studio at the back where I'm creating my own ceramics and I'm able to, you know, offer a smile to somebody with a cup of coffee.

And, uh, and that's it. So that's, that, that's, uh, that's old age for me. And I hope I can do that. But, um, before that, while my limbs are moving, I still, I really want to still continue to travel, explore different cultures, um, keep giving the service, um, keep working with, um, amazing people to continue to give various people great experiences.

I wouldn't change it at all. You know, people ask me this so many times. Are you happy with what you're doing? I'm like, I love it. I can do this the entire day. I love it. I love what I do. I wouldn't change it for anything.

Dan: Okay, two questions now. What type of ceramics do you like to work in? What medium within ceramics? Is it wheel or sculpture or

Vibha: Wheel.

Dan: wheel? Okay, um, and my second question is, what's your favorite kind of coffee?

Vibha: It's a simple espresso. Um, actually, no, I would be lying. If I go to a coffee shop, I would have an espresso, especially from person to Jurabica, but at home, I like my, um, local, um, Indian filter coffee with a basic, you know, um, metal filter container with a typical filter coffee from Tamil Nadu. That's what I like.

Until I have three cups in a day, it's not enough.

Dan: Okay, I need to check out the Tamil Nadu. Filter coffee. All right. I'm writing that down 'cause I need to put that on my list of coffee selections that I like. I, I love Drip. I'm a drip coffee person, uh, myself and I drink a lot of black drip coffee and it just makes me very happy. And since moving from New York City to Connecticut, I found that there is no good coffee around and it's very upsetting.

So we have to, we have a little laboratory of coffee in our kitchen here.

Vibha: OK, interesting. I'd like to see that sometime.

Dan: Yeah. We got all different kind of coffee devices. Um. Well, Vibha, this has been really wonderful. If people wanted to learn more about you or Kempinski, what's the best way for them to check in and learn more?

Vibha: Yeah, so about Kempinski. I mean, they can just go to the website and they'll get all the information they want from that. If they want to connect with me, they can connect with me via the LinkedIn profile and you know, I'd be happy to respond to any query that they have.

Dan: Yeah. Okay, great. And we'll be sure to put that in the show notes as well. Um, I just want to say thank you for you and, um, staying up later, being halfway around the world in Dubai. And, um, I am hopeful and optimistic that our paths will cross in our travels. Um, so I will make a note. And we will definitely connect in person.

I'm really

Vibha: 100 percent

Dan: So thank

you, Vipa. And also, I

just want to thank our listeners without all of you, we wouldn't be here talking to these amazing guests with all these different experiences from all over the world. Um, and again, it's word of mouth. So thanks, Kristen. Thanks all the guests.

Um, please reach out if you want to hear something, sign up for the newsletter, um, respond to the newsletter, give me some ideas, always looking for content ideas and, um, just thank you. I appreciate everyone and have a wonderful, wonderful week.