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Brief Summary of Show:
Travis speaks with Hank Shaw who is a James Beard Award-winning author and chef who focuses all his energies on wild foods: foraging, fishing and hunting.
Travis and Hank discuss a wide array of topics including what causes some meats to taste gamey, strategies or game care, tips for the new hunter, angler and forager and how Covid has affected the landscape of wild food collection. Hank tells us about his most recent book, with is more of a life project, Hook, Line and Supper.
Pre-order Hook, Line and Supper through Amazon or https://honest-food.net/hank-shaw-books/
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The Silvercore Podcast explores the mindset and skills that build capable people. Host Travis Bader speaks with hunters, adventurers, soldiers, athletes, craftsmen, and founders about competence, integrity, and the pursuit of mastery, in the wild and in daily life. Hit follow and step into conversations that sharpen your edge.
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I'm Travis Bader,
and this is The
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Today I'm joined
by renowned hunter,
angler, gardener, cook,
professional author, and
lover of Gwar, Hank Shaw.
Gwar!!
Welcome to the
podcast Hank.
Thanks for having me on.
Absolutely.
Man it's been a while
since screaming through
the Sierra Nevada in
your Subaru, while I
chowed down on your
lunch of salmon collars.
Yeah, I know.
And it's even been a
long time since we met
each other in Vancouver
for that dinner.
That was fun.
That was a lot of fun.
Yeah.
I enjoyed that.
That was abattoir,
wasn't it?
It was, it was, I think
it was 2018 was it not?
Going back a few years.
Yeah.
Man.
And then of
course COVID hit.
I got, I got to imagine
with your background
and the videos you put
out and the podcast
you put out and the
books you put out,
COVID probably brought
a lot more eyes to you.
Is that a fair
assessment?
That is a fair
assessment.
I was just talking to
a fellow, food blogger
friend of mine, and we're
all like shaking our
head because everyone got
this insane COVID balance
in terms of traffic.
However, the flip side
of that was at ad revenue
rates went in the toilet.
So I kind of made out
not terrible, but I got
this gigantic boost in
people like looking for
like, Hey, what do I do?
How can I eat my lawn?
Or how do I go hunting?
Or how do I, you know,
catch a fish to eat it?
And then dah, dah, and
then, but balanced off
with the fact that, that,
um, the revenue that
was being brought in was
pretty, pretty minimal.
But you know, that's
a minor concern
given what we've just
all been through.
I mean, it's, I can't
really complain.
Why do you think it
is an ad revenue would
have dropped off, yet
the demand went up?
Uh, because everybody's
was losing money.
Um, The only people who
didn't really take it
in the shorts during the
pandemic were essential
services and things that
are entirely online, but
the biggest advertisers
for a website like mine
are kind of national
brands that revolve
a lot around retail.
So, um, I don't really
run every individual ad.
I just, I worked
with an ad network.
Got it.
And the Ad network um,
you know, this is what
it was, you know, and
fortunately things are
kind of back to normal,
which is weird, right?
Because the United
States went through
this wretched, horrible
COVID pandemic, right?
Where everybody got
it and homeless people
died, but were actually
vaccinating people.
Whereas you Canadians,
nobody got it, but
nobody's getting
vaccinated either.
You got it.
Don't get me
started on that one.
You know, despite
the fact that I'm
married to a chef who
loves to garden and
she loves the forage.
I credit you with
awakening the
forger within.
Oh.
I had no idea.
It wasn't even on my
radar goin' pickin'
mushrooms or looking
for wild herbs and, it
wasn't even on my radar.
The very first time I
ever actually picked
mushrooms was with you.
And that was.
Really?
Yeah, that was
those porcinis.
And man, I had
a lot of fun.
Well, I'm really glad
that we actually found
some, cause it's not
always a guarantee.
Oh, we found a crapload.
I know.
That was a pretty
good day, that day.
I remember, we get out
of the vehicle, you're
given a little, a little
lesson, you said, so you
look around and here's
some of the areas you
might find them and look
for shrubs and we're
literally just out of
the vehicle and you
just kick your boot.
And you're like, Oh,
like this one right here.
Like, come on, this
had to been planned.
It wasn't, it was just
a really good day.
And I mean, you were
you living in British
Columbia, there's
all kinds of really
good mushrooms too.
Well slowly, I've
been getting into it.
And I mean, my wife
more so, and I just
kind of follow her lead
because she's doing all
the research on it and.
But learning that most
of the mushrooms actually
won't kill you and
some will get you sick
and take your time and
identify that was a, that
was a big one, but we.
Yeah mushrooms are kind
of an interesting one.
They're like, uh, if
you take a collection of
anything, human beings,
whatever, whatever you're
going to find that like
2% will kill you dead.
And 2% you would get on
an airplane to go pick.
Yeah.
And then there's another
percentage that like,
Hey, you might go
to the hospital and
then there's another
percentage that like, Oh,
absolutely, if I see them
totally picking them.
Then there's another
percentage of like, yeah,
you're going to worship
the porcelain God.
And then on the other
side, you're like,
Oh, if I find him sure
and I feel like it
I'll, I'll pick them.
And then there's this
vast middle of blah.
Right.
You know, where there's
just, they're neither
edible nor not edible.
Right.
You know, I've been
seeing on a Meat Eater,
Rinella is really pushing
the squirrel hunting.
He is, interestingly.
Yeah.
And I was, I would
never credit myself as
a, a voracious squirrel
hunter, but I've hunted
squirrels and I've eaten
squirrels, all up until
that one day, when you
said, what is that?
Some very minute
percentage of squirrels
carry the bubonic plague.
I haven't had a
squirrel since then.
That's ground
squirrels, not.
Oh is that what it is?
Not tree squirrels.
Yeah, so I mean, the,
I don't know that
there has never been
a tree squirrel with
the plague, but, uh,
what I'm referring to
are groundhogs and, and
ground squirrels, they
have a much more, a much
higher incidence of it.
It's still a little
overblown, like, you
know, it's, I don't know
the actual percentage
of danger that you
would have if you
ate prairie dogs or,
or ground squirrels.
Um, but I don't just
because I, I prefer tree
squirrels, which are much
cleaner and safer to eat.
Okay.
So I went,
hyper cautious.
You have the western
grey squirrel don't you?
We do.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
They're good eating.
They're very good eating.
Other than that fear,
I guess now irrational
fear, the possible
bubonic plague in them.
So it's ground
squirrels, got it.
Yep.
Ground squirrels.
So the ground has
to have that kind
of a rough on them.
And then that you do
find them in trees every
now and again, but they
were climbing up the
trees from their holes
and they look different.
Right.
You know, we get a
lot of marmots up in a
few of the areas that
I like to go to um.
I know people
who eat marmots.
Okay.
Well, I guess squirrel's
back on the menu,
they better watch out.
So you've got a
background, like from
a very early age,
your mother got you
into foraging and
gardening, and then
you got into fishing
pretty early, wasn't it?
Very early, very
early, like before
I can remember.
So, there you are
heavy background
in foraging, heavy
background in fishing.
And you started
hunting when in
your thirties or 32?
Yeah.
And, uh, when I was 32.
Okay.
And so God, that's
18 years ago now.
Despite your background
in foraging and fishing,
you then go on to write
basically for wild game
hunting related books.
And you're just now
writing a book on fishing
Hook, Line and Supper.
Yep.
How, how come you what
made you decide to
do it in that order?
Primarily and I haven't
written the fish, the
foraging book yet either.
So a lot of it has to
do with familiarity.
So I was a journalist
for 18 years.
So the job of a
journalist is to learn
a thing of your beat,
whatever your beat is and
learn it very, very well,
and be able to relay
what you lo and what you
learn to your readers
clearly and fairly.
And, and that's,
that's, that's, that's
in the essence is
what journalism is all
about, at least as a
reporter, as opposed
to a commentator.
And so, given that I
had already hunted for
quite quite a while
before I even started
out put paper to,
or put pen to paper.
But, uh, what I had
found was that my
first book does have
fishing and foraging
in it to be fair.
It does.
So it's, it's, it's,
it's got a little
bit of everything.
So, but I decided to
do deep dives into
waterfowl with, with
Duck, Duck, Goose,
with, you know, the
cervids and all things
antlered and horned
is Buck, Buck, Moose.
And then with small game
with Pheasant, Quail,
Cottontail, because
I, uh, I find that.
Since I've really more
or less stopped eating
domesticated meat with
the exception of, um,
I have a couple of
friends who are very
good hog farmers, so I
got some, some really
good farmed hogs, um,
once or twice a year.
Other than that, it
pretty much everything
in our house has been
hunted or fished, in
terms of the protein.
So the daily, day by
day, week by week, year
by year exposure to
game animals from all
over the North America.
And, you know, in every
season you get a really
good intimate knowledge.
And I kind of already
had that fish knowledge
and I had the reason
why I started with
ducks because it's
where, you know, you
can see the Duck, Duck,
Goose right there.
Uh, and I started with
that was because, um,
here in California,
we have unbelievable
duck hunting.
And so I had far more
experience with that
than I did with uplands
when I wrote that book.
And you know, I, I do
it on every year and I
hunt big game every year,
but it's not like I'm,
I'm not like, you know,
I got a friend named
John Stallone and John
Stallone, like lives
for big game hunting.
He hunts big game
for months at a time.
And I'll hunt big
game until I get
one or maybe two.
And then I'm like,
all right, good.
Now I can go hunt birds.
And so it took a while
for me to develop the
institutional knowledge,
to be able to write
a really quality
cookbook about venison.
So, so kind of a long
way of coming around to
those areas were popular.
Those areas were
things that people
wanted to read about.
Those are also
areas where there's
a, a bigger need.
So, especially with
ducks, I mean, I think
ducks are probably the,
the game animal that
is the most horribly
destroyed in the kitchen
of anything, with venison
being a second thing.
And then, then I
think, I think a lot
of people cook upland
animals in a decent
way, even without the
help of someone like me.
And then that's also
kind of true with
fish in the sense that
pretty much everybody
knows how to fry a
piece of fish or maybe
slap it on the grill.
Sure.
So to write a fish and
seafood cookbook, a,
um, since I've fished
in like five Canadian
provinces in 40 some
odd States and you know,
for the better part of
45 plus years, right.
And I've eaten or
cooked and catched,
caught, eaten, or cooked
like 500 species or
something like that.
Every time I would write
a sentence, I'd be like,
well, this is true.
And then over here,
my head would be like,
well, but there's not
other fish that lives in
Louisiana that doesn't
really act that way.
So, so the, the problem
with the, the eternal
exceptions of the
diversity of fish made
it difficult to cook.
The second thing that
made it very difficult
to cook is if or to, to
write, is that for every
time that I want to write
about, say the Pacific
Northwest fish, I have to
be cognizant of the fact
that, well, nobody wants
a recipe for halibut.
Nobody, because if
you want a recipe
for halibut, you live
where halibut live.
Well, guess what?
Most people don't live
where halibut live.
So the recipe needs to
be applicable to you,
to me down, you know,
1500 miles South of
you, in California,
as well as somebody
in Iowa, Louisiana,
Maine, Colorado.
So you had to think
about fish in a
very different way.
You had to think
about fishes in kind
of a galactic sense.
Where you put them
in broader buckets.
Where you have, this is a
lean white fish, this is
a soft, lean white fish.
This is a very firm one,
this is a fatty fish.
This is a fatty orange
fish, like a salmon
or a trout, or as
Canadians say tr-oot.
Um,
I don't know any
Canadians that
say that, but.
I do.
There, they live in
Alberta, my friend,
Kevin Casajuan
likes to say tr-oot.
Tr-oot, tr-oot.
And he has a hard
time saying tr-out.
Tr-out.
Yeah.
You do it
better actually.
Um.
You know, we're a
little closer to
the border here.
That's true.
That's true.
But I mean, that, that
was the thing it's like,
I wanted to write a
book that is not only
useful for everybody,
fresh water or salt.
But it also really gives
you master recipes,
um, fundamental skills
on cooking any kind
of fish or seafood
that will then really
free you from recipes.
Like there are recipes,
lots of recipes in the
book, but, but the really
sort of structured as if
you want a beer batter
fresh fish, this is how
you beer batter fresh.
But if you want to fry
fish and like these
seven other ways, I've
got these seven other
ways and they're all
tested and they're all,
they're all ironclad.
And then what if you
want to poach fish or
grill or cure, I've got
a big section on salting,
smoking and curing
because people have been
doing that with fish
and seafood for as long
as we've been catching
fish and seafood.
Totally.
Because if you catch
things by the ocean,
you live near salt.
That's right.
You know, I, I think
that's part of the
appeal behind the
whole Hank Shaw brand
and HonestFood.net
is the fact that you.
You look at the whole
process and you look
at things differently.
You're kind of, you
know, you're, you're
kind of a counter
culture kind of guy.
Even your website, you
got a .net website,
not a .com or you
got a .net website.
But, but you look at when
your contemporaries are
out there and chasing
big game and posting big,
big game pictures and
big flashy expeditions.
You're talking about
pheasants, quails,
and cottontails, and
how to basically eat
stuff that grows out
of your sidewalk.
And you do that in, from
a chef's perspective.
I mean, you've, you've
got your, uh, James
Beard award winner
for your website.
That's a pretty big
deal in the, uh, in
the cooking world.
There you go
right in the back.
Oh yeah.
You got it up
there, I love it.
Man, yeah.
If I had something like
that, I'd be flying it
loud and proud for sure.
That's, that's kind of,
kind of like the Oscars
for, for chefs, isn't it?
It is.
It is.
Um, and, uh, very
lucky and very, very
proud of to get it.
You were nominated
what, in 2009, you're
nominated again in 2010
and in 2013 you got it.
That's massive.
It's even cool to
be nominated because
in you're still on
the podium right.
Cause they only
nominate three.
Only three?
Yeah.
For any given category.
Right.
So in any given
category, there's going
to be three finalists.
And so even just to be
nominated is a big deal.
Wow.
So we were actually
supposed to do this
podcast on Wednesday
tentatively, but
you have Spanish
classes on Wednesday.
Not this time.
Uh, this time I'm,
I can't do it on
Wednesday cause I'm
Turkey hunting because
our Turkey hunting.
Ahh, good for you!
Season has started, uh.
Good for you.
Well you've got a lot of.
Spanish, I think I
have a week off of
my Spanish, but.
Well you've got some
pretty good Turkey
hunting around
where you are.
We do.
They're all, they're
all Rio's except for
the far North of the
state on your Oregon
where there's some
Merriam's, but mostly
they're the Rio Grande
turkeys, which, um, it
would be unfair to say
that they're the short
bus Turkey, but they
are significantly easier
to hunt than Easterns.
Easterns are
notoriously the hardest.
So you'd see that in
Ontario and then in
the American East.
Right.
So the Spanish lessons,
there's a, I've seen
the big shift in how you
cook over the years and
you're, you're getting
a lot more of a Spanish
and Mexican flavor to
a lot of the things
you're doing right.
Are you just doing
the Spanish lessons
primarily to get a better
feel for the cooking?
Or is there something
more in there?
It's yes and no.
So, uh, I've been
fascinated by Mexican
cooking, in specific in
Latin American cooking in
general for quite awhile.
And the thing about
Mexican cooking,
there's two, there's
two, two main things.
One is proximity, like
it's our other neighbor.
There's three main
countries in North
America and, and yours
is one, mine is the other
and Mexico is the third.
And, and so proximity
matters, but what
really, really cemented
it was the fact that,
in my opinion, a great
world cuisine has to be
underpinned by a great
world civilization.
So the reason why
that is the case is
because you have to
have had centuries, or
if not, millennia of
a ruling classthat can
just sit around and
have somebody cook for
them in fancy ways.
And that's sort of the
underpinning and it
sounds weird and elitist,
but it's true if you
think about it, like, is
there a really good food
in, oh, I don't know.
Kenya, for example.
Sure.
Yeah.
There's really good
food in Kenya, but
there was never any
big, giant civilization.
Like there was an
Egypt or in Zimbabwe,
um, or in Ghana.
So, you know, it's just
use African examples.
And in Mexico you have
to, you've got the
Maya and the Aztecs,
not to mention there's
a couple other groups
that, that are a little
bit lesser known, but
you've got these major
long lived sophisticated
civilizations that
underpin their food.
And so that connected
with the ingredients
that they have available.
So the area that
is now Mexico, has
everything from the
origin of chilies, the
origin of tomatoes.
Um, and they also had
to some extent potatoes,
although those were
mostly from the Andes,
uh, not to mention lots
and lots and lots of
other ingredients that
we use on a daily basis,
you know, corn, beans
and squash, for example.
Corn, beans and
squash as we know them
originated in Mexico.
Now they were widely
used all the way up to,
to Southern Canada when
white people showed up.
Um, but they filtered
North from Mesoamerica.
So you have these
amazing ingredients.
You have these amazing
techniques in the
civilizations that
underpin it, and then
they're our neighbour.
So I got very, very
interested in it,
uh, some years ago.
And then I very quickly
realized that if you only
speak English, it is like
seeing just a shadow of
the real cuisine, because
while there is a fairly
large number of Mexican
cookbooks written in
the English language.
There are an order of
magnitude more cookbooks
written in Spanish.
And until, and unless
you can read Spanish
and speak Spanish and
really understand Mexico,
you know, like actual
Mexicans, like it's
not just food ladies
and gentlemen, it's the
human beings who make it.
Right.
And you cannot really,
um, grok to use a
California term,
the, the, the cuisine
or the people or
whatever, unless you
speak their language.
So that's a prerequisite.
And when I was in high
school, I took two
years of Italian and
three years of Latin.
So those are really
good underpinnings
for learning Spanish.
And, and so the goal
eventually, one of
my best friends, uh,
is from Monterey.
Uh, in Nuevo Leon and he
lives here in California
and runs a restaurant
called Nixtaco.
And so Patricio and I,
our goal is to write a
Mexican cookbook someday.
And I refuse to be the
gringo who's standing
there unable to answer
questions in Spanish.
And cause you, you
do see this, you see
this where there are
American or Canadian
or other or chefs of
any other country that
don't speak X language.
And don't, don't really,
they just kind of
parachute into a culture.
And then, and then
cherry pick things
from it without really
fully understanding
the whole culture.
And I don't want
to be that guy.
Like, uh, I want to be
the guy who's like, Oh
yeah, that's really good.
Even if you don't like
the fact that I'm a
wedo um, you have to,
I want to be that guy.
They're like, yeah, you
got to give the devil
his due, you know.
That's fantastic.
And I hope people will,
will see our book, which
is years in the future.
I hope they will see
our book whenever it
comes out as a positive
thing and adding to
the overall knowledge.
And here's the thing,
like if it does well,
shit, we're going to
print in Spanish too.
That's pretty damn
cool actually.
Have you already started
kind of pre-writing it in
your head or do you have?
Yeah, yeah, it has.
It has, uh, it has,
we have some structure
for it, but it's,
like I said, it's,
it's a few years off.
Years in the making.
Yeah.
I don't know if I can
get behind your, uh,
your love of Gwar but
I did hear you rockin'
out to some Control
Machete, and, uh, I
can get behind that.
Control Machete,
they're from Monterey.
Are they?
I didn't know that.
It's interestingly,
like a lot of the music,
a lot of the Mexican
music, I like a lot
is from that city.
Yeah, that's interesting.
Like Kinky, Kinky
from that city.
And El Gran Silencio
from that city.
Um, yeah, there's a
Jonas in Plastilina Mosh.
Plastilina Mosh you
may know, because there
was, it had one hit
that really made it
into English speaking
world was Mr PMOSH.
Mr.
P M O S H.
And it was about 20 years
ago, but it was, it got
major radio play, at
least in this country.
Did it?
I may have missed
that one, but yeah,
no si señor I always
had that on my list
of, uh, of songs if
I ever made a movie.
And there's some Latino
gangsters kind of
cruising through that's
what would be playing
in the background.
Oh yeah.
Well, they were of course
heavily influenced by,
um, by a Cypress Hill.
That's right.
Yeah.
Now I remember reading
one time, there was a
quote that you had there
and it was, uh, I'll,
I'll read the quote.
It says, I, I think
it's just because
Americans fear food,
plain and simple.
We're probably the
niche in that is the
most scared of our food
supply because it's
failed us at times.
And I, and that was in
regards to people's fear
of getting foraging is
it and getting wild game?
And what, what was
the, uh, uh, the
impetus behind that
one, because I just saw
that one cut and paste
it out and I thought,
yeah, that's kind of
an interesting one.
I think it is really
more of a reference to
the general food supply.
So, and that of course
bleeds into the wild
world as well because
they, the thought the,
you know, the general
thought, I think this is,
this is true in Canada,
too, where, Oh God, you
know, what if my burger's
got e-coli or what if my,
my lettuce has listeria
and dah dah dah, in, in
the thought process with
that is, well, if that's
the case in a regulated,
farmed food environment,
how much worse must the
wild environment be?
So that's the
thought process.
Ahh.
So, and the other,
the approximate thing
is every time I take
somebody on a, on a
edible plant walk.
Oh yeah, that's edible.
That's edible a
hundred percent.
I could, I could eat
at the French laundry
as much as I want, if I
had a dollar for every
time, I've heard this.
What if a dog peed on it?
Well, don't you
have a sink?
Yeah.
You can wash it off.
Number one, or maybe
don't pick from the
section on the side of
the sidewalk that's at
dog pee level, right?
Just go back
a little bit.
Hey, it's strangely
yellowed and burnt.
Like let's, let's pick
that one, you know?
Oh my god.
That's the thing like
mushroom poisoning, 50%,
give or take, the stats
are roughly that, but
it's not an exact stat.
Roughly half of all
mushroom poisonings
are caused by people
having panic attacks
from eating perfectly
edible mushrooms or
eating perfectly edible
mushrooms that are
like rotten or moldy
or something like that.
Ahh.
Yup.
So like they're
not actually eating
a toxic mushroom.
They're either eating a
rotten edible mushroom,
or they're just freezing
because they don't
trust themselves.
Interesting.
50% of the time, it
works every time.
Roughly, roughly
about that.
Do you find as you're
through your writing
and through your website
and your books, and do
you find that you're
seeing more people out
in the places that you
would typically go to?
Like, are you kind
of creating your own
competition out there?
I think that's true.
I, I, I think I'm not
the only person doing
it, but, um, I've been
doing this publicly
for quite a long time.
So, uh, it is why
I don't do many
plant walks anymore.
And if I do do them,
I do them in public
places where it's
illegal to pick.
Ahh yeah.
So that if you want
to go back there and
pick up this illegal
spot, that's on you.
Um, years ago, like
where I took you.
Yeah.
That's a spot that
you could go back,
you could go back and
you could pick at it.
Now I trusted you because
you're a Canadian and
we'll not only because
Canadians are generally
trustworthy, but.
Difficult access.
Yes.
Difficult access.
So, yeah.
Like I would take people
in and we would actually
go to a place where we
could gather and about
90% were good people and
would respect my spots,
but that leaves 10%.
And when you're dealing
with, you know, maybe a
hundred people over the
course of the year, then
that means 10 people
are stealing your spots.
And then that
can kill a spot.
Totally.
And they tell their
friends or friends
tell friends, and then.
That's the thing.
That's like, people
don't get that.
So here's,
here's etiquette.
Like if you're listening
to this outside here,
this is, this is, this
is true to knowledge
I'm dropping on you.
If either of us or
anybody takes you to
one of our spots, it is
for you and you only.
So if I take you to my
mushroom spot and you
want to return to that
mushroom spot, you need
to ask me if you can
return to my spot and
you don't bring other
people, unless you have.
100%.
Trust in that other
person that, that other
person is never going
to, to burn your spot,
which is very difficult
to do because there's
even good friends.
Who'd be like,
Oh no, oh yeah.
I posted it on Instagram
with a geo tag.
You're like
rubber hose now.
Yeah, no, I get
behind that 100%.
You know, we, we
caught some heat, you
know, April Vokey.
Uh, you've
podcast with her.
Actually I was on her
podcast in April and
I are going to do our
first virtual book event,
uh, in May together.
That is so sweet.
That is so cool.
So, uh, when she was with
MeatEater, we did a video
doing some crabbing and
just handpicking crabs.
And although we didn't
give any locations and
we're very careful about
making sure it was just
like views of the water.
Man we caught some
heat from people who
were local in the
area and they could
kind of pick it out.
And it's, it's something
that has to be taken
very, very seriously.
You don't want these
to get these spots
kind of burned out.
Yup.
At least, at least.
So with crabs, they, they
move like I've had my
clam spots just raped.
It was the worst.
It was the worst.
Like I went there,
it was, it was money.
Like you, you, you would
get your limit of clams.
Absolutely.
And then I, I took
a few people there
and it was gone.
Yeah.
It's gotta be tough.
I guess that's part and
parcel with getting the
information out there,
even if you're not giving
them your secret spots
or locations away, you
are encouraging people
to get out there and
search for themselves.
I don't mind that.
I mean, uh there's
uh, again, if you
want to swing back to
MeatEater, uh, very
recently, uh, Steve
Rinella's brother said
something to the effect
of like, well, I don't
know that we want more,
to be recruiting more
hunters, which caught a
lot of flack actually.
Mhmm, I saw that.
And they did
a retraction.
I can't remember.
But anyway, um,
there is that theory
out there though.
There's a lot of people
who are established who,
and you see this nimbyism
with, with all things
in human experience.
It's like, I got
mine, I'm going to
shut the door by me.
I just don't think
that's very fair.
It's just not very
fair for, for anybody,
especially if what
you're doing is you're
teaching them how, you're
basically teaching them
how to learn themselves.
So I don't necessarily,
this is why I will take
somebody to, or, or
talk to somebody about a
public area where maybe
isn't legal to hunt or
fish or whatever, but
I'm going to show you
what it looks like.
Like, if you see this
habitat, if you see this
kind of rock structure,
if you see this kind of,
of, you know, area in
the marsh, it's, that's
kind of what you're
looking for and yeah, it
does it get them close?
It sure does.
And it helps them be
successful on their
own so they can find
their own spots.
And yes, of course,
there's a great example.
Um, I didn't take
you there, but,
uh, on the coast of
California, there's,
everyone's secret spot.
I'm going to say it
because it's, it's
just hilarious.
So, uh, over the last
10, 15 years I have had
people, hey man, you
know, like the secret
spot it's Mount Vision
Road in Point Reyes
National Seashore.
I have heard that a dozen
times from different
people, who don't know
each other, that that's
their secret spot.
Like dude, really like
everybody, the planet is
at that particular place
at that at a particular
time as porcini on it.
Right.
But in you know, it's,
it's not a secret.
So, so that kind of
stuff, like at least it
gets them to like, that's
what it should look like.
And, and I'll be honest.
I mean, I don't, you
know, yeah there's more,
there's more pressure
here and there, but
I don't think it's
that bad, you know?
And if, and if it does
get that bad, people
are doing something
positive, like I'd rather
that than, you know.
Yeah.
You know, there's a
million things that they
could be doing that is
more harmful to not only
the environment, but
to, to my experience
doing my thing.
Have you heard of
them a fellow by the
name of Shane Mahoney?
Oh yes.
Santa Claus.
Santa Claus.
Yes.
He's from
Ontario isn't he?
Uh, he's from
Newfoundland actually.
Oh, he's a newfie.
Okay.
Gotcha.
Yeah, he's a newfie.
You wouldn't guess
it by his accent.
And a little Irish
comes up when you
talk with them.
Little Newfie can
come up, but for the
most part, man, he's
a hell of an order.
Not like Lori
from Cod Sounds.
Yeah, that's right.
I love Lori.
And she's got
the best accent.
Well, he was saying
something, circling
back to about talking
about recruiting hunters
and he's talking about
the North American
model of conservation.
And he said, everyone
talks about, we got
to get more hunters,
we've got to recruit
hunters, we've got to
get women into hunting
and he's taking a
different approach as
opposed to saying, Oh,
we got to get these
more hunters out there.
So we have more people
on our side to fight
the other side, who
would be anti hunting.
He says, why don't we
ride a trend that's
already moving as opposed
to trying to stop the
flow of the water, get
on the water and ride
it down in that trend
that he's looking at
his food, essentially.
And he, and he set
up this, so he's
got Conservation
Visions and The Wild
Harvest Initiative.
And I thought it
was kind of an
interesting concept.
So it's not that you
need more hunters, you
need more people to
understand why hunters
hunt and to appreciate
where their food comes
from and understand
why they should care
about their food.
I thought that was
really interesting.
And when he was saying
that, because I did
a podcast with him
recently, when he
was saying that you
sprung to mind, because
that's sorta your whole
thing, you, I don't
know if you're taking
it from a conservation
approach, but it's,
it's what you're doing.
You're, you're getting
people excited about
something that's already
something that's sparked
in their curiosity.
I, I think I, I don't
know that I take it
specifically from a
conservation perspective.
Although I, I I'm aware
that it is important.
So the ansul is kind of
like, um, it would be an
add on to what Mahoney
is talking about is that
when you are invested
as a gatherer, or an
angler or a hunter,
you have skin in the
game, in the places in
which you do your thing.
So what Mahoney is
talking about, I think,
is that, so here's me,
I'm a guy who does these
things and, um, like we
mentioned off the air,
there have been years
where I have, um, or I
have hunted more big game
meat than I, that I ended
up, could use in a year.
So I distributed that
big game meat as gifts
to friends and family.
And so there everybody
who does these things
gathering or angling
or hunting has this
halo around him or
her, who have people
who can appreciate the
gifts from the wild.
So everybody who receives
those gifts or who does
the actual thing has skin
in the game of keeping
the environment as, as,
as healthy, healthy is
probably a good word
for it as possible.
Um, if you are an urban
dweller, typically it's
an urban dweller, uh,
who has zero connection
to the wild world.
If you ignore it, it'll
go away and they don't
have any connection
to it whatsoever.
So what that means is
they don't have, there's
no real reason to value
it, except as a pretty
thing for that they see
in TV commercials or
maybe they drive through
it once in a while.
And the interesting
thing about that view
is because there's quite
a lot of urban dwellers
who, who say they feel
quite strongly about
the environment, is that
when you don't live in
it or don't participate
in it, you view it as
a museum to look at
and not as our home.
And it's our home,
wherever we're just
animals, you know,
we're, we're hairless
monkeys with thumbs and.
And we're just a little
bit more clever than most
of the other animals.
Just a little bit,
you know, like
think about it, if
dolphins had thumbs,
we'd be in trouble.
Yeah.
You know, so, um,
The fact that we're
incredibly divorced
from our natural origins
is something that's
the larger picture of
what I'm trying to do.
I'm trying to have
more people had more
skin in the game so
that when it comes time
to, and you're seeing
this, you're seeing
this in American and in
Canadian politics to some
extent, um, where, yeah,
there's even staunch
conservative Republicans
when some other facet
of the Republican party
wants to, um, wreck
a natural spot for,
usually mining and
gas sometimes logging.
Um, then, but they're
hunters, you know,
they're staunch
conservatives, but
they're hunters.
Uh, and they're like,
no, you can't do this,
you're going to wreck
the spots because
they skin in the game.
And so that's a way
for, um, I guess wise
uses one word for it,
there's a lot of use, you
know, buzz words for it.
But the bottom line is
the, the perspective of,
of the wild world as a
home to not, don't mess
your home up, versus you
museum to never touch.
Like a great
example is logging.
So there are lots of
ways that logging can
be done to the advantage
of, of the forest,
it's selective logging.
And in some cases
like, especially
in the East grouse,
for example, grouse
really dig clear cuts.
Um, and, and
historically, before
we showed up, um,
that would have been
a side effect of, uh,
microbursts and storms,
which would knocked
down a whole bunch of
trees at the same time.
So then once humans
showed up, you're
talking about native
Americans and you know,
and First Nations people
you are talking about
managed use of fire.
So for a hundred years, I
don't know about Canada.
And I just think it's
the same in Canada,
but in the United
States, we had a no
fire at anytime policy.
Right.
So what that did is
that that allowed the
understory of our Western
forests to get so thick
that when you do have
a fire, you get what's
called a ladder fire and
it will wreck a forest.
Whereas when the natives
were there and they
were like, yeah, yeah,
we're going to burn this
stuff at the right time.
And we're going to
run this fire through.
And it's essentially
like a brass and
little stick fire.
And it's, it's not that
hot and it goes really
super fast and it clears
out that underbrush
and it actually helps
trees and it helps a
whole bunch of conifers
actually set seed.
But there's a whole bunch
of conifers that won't
actually, their seeds
wont germinate, unless
they've been burned
or chared, you know,
obviously they can't
be incinerated, but.
Right.
And then that's the thing
it's like when you get
these big old ladder
fires through like,
Oh no, it's a museum.
You can't touch it.
Then what happens is
the fire burns so hot,
you burn the seeds to
a crisp and then you've
gone the other way.
So, let me ask, this
sort of one little
example of yeah.
You know, we live
here and sure we can
mess things up, but we
can also be an agent
for positive change.
I think what Shane said,
he said something along
the lines of, it's not
that there's a different
set of rules for the
animals and for me,
the issue is, is that I
am one of the animals.
Right.
Exactly that.
For people to get skin
in the game, 32 years
old, you started hunting.
Yep.
What kind of tips
would you have for
a late onset hunter?
Cause we get people
calling up saying,
ah, you know, I, I
never, I didn't have
hunting in my family.
I'd never be able to pick
it up, I'm never going
to be able to master it.
Maybe I'll dabble
a little bit.
And I don't, I don't
necessarily think
that's true and case
in point yourself.
I mean, what, what
would you tell
people to look at and
concentrate on if they
wanted to awaken that
interest in themselves?
Uh, well, number
one is to try the
fruits of the labour.
So first and foremost,
if you want to be
involved in gathering,
or angling, or hunting,
you need to enjoy the
fruits of that labour.
So you have to, I think
most people have bought
fish from, this is,
you know, this is a side
note um, fish is the
primarily wild food that
the world still eats.
It's the last gathered
food, you know, I mean,
there's, you know,
obviously the wild
mushrooms, but that's
kind of a boutique
product where most of
the people listening to
this, if not all of the
people listening to this
have eaten wild fish.
So that's number one.
That's a good point.
Uh, for gathering
wild mushrooms is
probably be a good
way to go about it.
Um, if you live in
the East ramps or
fiddleheads, and you
know, there are some
commercially available
wild food products
that you can buy.
Um, and then with
hunting, typically you
have to have a friend
who does it, however,
you can try farmed
game, which is a game
meat, that's not really
wild game because it's
because of that North
American model that Shane
Mahoney is talking about.
You cannot, you
haven't been able to
buy real wild game
from North America
for over a century.
It's been illegal.
Now that said there
is a company called
D'Artagnan, where
they will sell
British game online.
It's expensive, but it's
real, real wild game.
I mean, you know,
pellets and all.
Um, so the, you kinda
got to get your feet
wet and that's kinda
how I got into it
was, um, as a child,
I had the privilege
of being, uh, sort of
situational only child.
So, cause my, my next
sister is seven years
older than I am.
So it was just me
and my mom and my
stepdad for quite some
time in the house.
And so they really
like to eat at
nice restaurants.
So when the only the one
kid in tow and a kid who
like good food, uh, I got
exposed to game meats in
a very high end setting
in Italian or French
restaurants in New York
city back in around 1980.
And so I always had it
in my mind, a, um, that
game and, and squab
and duck and goose
and venison they were
always luxury foods.
They're always
high-end foods.
Right.
And so then flash
forward, my friend,
Chris Niskanen, who is
the outdoor writer, the
newspaper that we both
worked at in Minnesota
at the time he started
just giving me a duck or
giving me some pheasants
or giving me some venison
and because I knew how
to cook and because I
had this early experience
with high-end game meats,
this is, I got to have
more of this, you know,
and I'd already fished
and gathered things
for my whole life.
So I knew what the end
result was going to
be before I got and
did the hard work.
So the hard work for,
hunt, hard work, hunting
is hardest of the, all of
the 3 to get involved in.
Now with gathering,
it's probably the second
hardest because, uh,
let's just knock fishing
at first, fishing is
easy, hire a guide,
do what they say.
Don't gut the guide and,
and you will eventually
catch fish and you will,
you'll, you know, you buy
my book, Hook, Line and
Supper available wherever
fine books are sold.
Get it.
If it's anything like
the other books it's
going to be fantastic.
It's actually going
to be better, um.
Well I look
forward to it.
Because of the,
my long experience
with this stuff, but
anyway, I digress.
Yeah.
Um, there's lots of
information out there
for the budding angler.
It is a, it is a pursuit.
I mean, it's one of
those things where the
difference, a real true
angler is not just a
person with a rod and
reel in his or her hand.
Um, but you can
start like that.
So similarly with
gathering, um, I always
tell people to start
with your own property.
Start, start with
learning the names
of the plants that
are on your property.
You will find that
probably 50% of them
are edible in some
way, shape or form,
unless you've, of
course you've only have
grass, which is weird.
Um, but some
people do and.
Fi, even the process
of learning the names
of those, um, it will
open you to this world.
Like, so there's
homework involved in
gathering because there
are poisonous plants,
not many, but there
are poisonous plants.
And there's a couple of
families, notably the
carrot family, which
has hemlock and it's
got water hemlock and
you know, so there,
there are toxic plants
in that category.
So you're like, Oh,
okay, this family,
but first of all, you
have to know that it
is a family of plants
and, and that they're
all related in some
way and that, and that
they share structure.
So yes, there's some
homework involved,
but you can do
that in your couch.
Um, there are apps
like iNaturalist, or
I forget what they're
called they're okay.
But they're the kind
of like the wikipedia
of gathering, in the
sense that I don't know
that I'm going to trust
it a hundred percent.
Like, I don't know
that I'm going to
trust my life on a
cell phone app when
I'm in the woods right.
Right.
So use it as a tool.
And this is the thing,
I mean, this is a, you
know, you have to learn
how to learn and, and,
and, and many, any decent
college will tell you
how to learn, how to
learn, which is to say
that's one source, work
with other sources.
I can tell you that
if you live anywhere,
other than where
you and I live.
In other words, the
West coast, um, the
books of Sam Thayer,
he lives in Wisconsin
are very, very good.
Um, he's got three
or four out, um,
and they are they're
worth or buy them.
They're worth
every penny.
And they, they, um,
they involve plants from
about the great Plains
to the Atlantic ocean
from about the boreal
forest, all the way down
to Northern Florida.
Now with hunting,
that's the hardest.
So you have to really
want to be involved
because hunting, the
act of hunting is the
hardest of the three.
And the aftermath of the
hunting is hardest of the
three and the skill set
you need to, to know, is
the hardest of the three.
So I highly recommend
you start with, well,
what's the result.
Do you really
like venison?
Do you really like
upland game birds?
Do you really
like squirrels?
Do you really like ducks?
Um, then that will start
your, your journey.
And when you decide
that this D this is the
thing, or these are the
things that I want to
pursue, number two, do
they live where you do?
So I might want
to hunt grouse and
pheasants all I want.
They don't really
live in California.
I mean, there's, there
are a few wild pheasants
and there are a few wild
grouse where I live, but
it's really, that's not
really what you do if
you live where I do, you
hunt ducks and geese.
And that's important
because if I was a
dedicated tuna fishermen,
which I used to be, I
wouldn't lay where I live
now because I have to go
a long way to even get on
a boat, to fish for tuna.
I have to go a long
way to, to hunt a rough
grouse or a woodcock.
So proximity is important
because if you have to
travel, you'll do it
once or twice a year.
And like, meh, you know,
I mean, you only at
best be a dilettante.
Um, then you have to
learn your weapon,
whether it's a shotgun
or a rifle or a bow,
you have to learn your
weapon and you have to
be good at it because
you, this is, this is,
this is really important
because you can't,
unshoot a bird, you
can't unshoot a deer.
And so you owe it
to yourself and
to the animal that
you are pursuing to
be a clean killer.
And it sounds harsh,
but it's true.
So flip the script
for a second.
If I'm Mr.
Deer walking around in
the woods, would I rather
be shot in the heart
and be like, Oh my God,
I'm dying and then dead.
Or would I rather be
shot in the liver and
die over the course
of 24 hours, I think,
you know the answer.
You know, both suck in
the end because you're
dead, but one's a harsher
nastier way to go.
And if you're constantly
behind on your birds and
which is the big, single
biggest problem for,
for beginners they're
behind on the bird.
Um, I always say if
you're new to hunting any
bird, if you're going to
miss miss in front of it.
And if you just think
that you're going to be
a better bird shot, and
I have actually missed
in front of birds where
you see the bird go ehhh.
That's right.
Put the brakes on.
It's like Daffy
duck and air brakes.
See pellets, I think
they feel the air
or something coming
at 'em or something.
But anyway, you owe
it to be a marksman,
in whatever it
is that you do.
And that, that
requires practice.
You have to
practice it that.
And so that's your
homework there and plus
you have to learn the
habits of the animal
where the animal lives.
None of this is,
is plug and play.
The closest to plug
and play you get is a
party boat for fishing.
And, and all of
this is, is becomes
part of who you are.
So 30 years ago,
20 years ago.
20 years ago, I ha I
defined myself in a
large part as a runner.
Right.
Cause I was a very
good distance runner
and, you know, I would
walk in the room and
somebody, well what are
you, I'm a runner, you
know, I'm, yeah, I'm a
journalist, but yeah,
I'm really a runner.
And you kind of do that
with hunting and fishing
and gathering as well.
It, it becomes part of
how you define yourself.
Cause it's not just
something that you pick
up and put down, you can
do that with fishing,
but you really can't
with anything else.
And if you do with
hunting, cause I seen
'em, I've seen 'em where
we'll do guided hunts,
forage where I cook and
you know, I help guide
some times and process
animals and stuff.
And you'll see people
who have like, yeah,
they're really just here
for the food and they,
they hunt maybe once a
year or twice a year.
That's fine, in that
environment, because
we are doing a very
level best to make
sure that everything
comes out okay.
But that's not
really a hunter.
That's a shooter.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Good point.
Yeah it's a heck
of a commitment
that's for sure.
It is.
So small game or
big game what's
your favorite?
Small game, a
hundred percent.
Like I like hunting
deer and I like it.
Like I put in for an oryx
in New Mexico this year.
I don't know if I'm
going to get it, but, um,
you know, I put in for
big game stuff because
I think it's exciting.
It's an adventure.
But it's, it's a lot of
it's serious business.
You know, elk hunting
is serious business.
Um, even deer hunting
is serious business,
whereas, you know,
you can go out duck
hunting and sure it's
serious cause you're
actually, you're
killing animals to eat.
Um, but it's
somehow more, it's
somehow lighter.
It's somehow, um,
nobody's pissed off
of serious when you're
hunting pheasants,
if you are, you're.
Right.
Not somebody I
wanna be with.
You're doing it wrong.
Yeah.
You're doing it wrong.
And plus, I mean,
just from a very
specific, forget the
actual acquisition
of the protein for a
second and, and big
game is all red meat.
Period, end of story.
It's all lean red meat.
Now there's differences.
Like I shot a nilgai
last year and it
was pretty cool.
Um, it's a bovid so it's
more related to the cow
than it is to the deer.
So the fat is more
like beef tallow than
it is like deer fat,
which means it does
not coach your mouth.
Interesting.
So it was very lean,
but the fat that
it had was amazing.
So that was kind of
a neat little thing,
but it's still, it's,
it's basically beef.
It's like super, super
lean grass fed beef.
Or small game, you have
the diversity of colour.
You have the diversity
in texture, you have the
diversity of flavour.
You have some of the
strongest, no, you have
the strongest flavoured
wild animals that we eat
in the small game world,
ptarmigan, muskrat,
um, sharp tail grouse.
Right.
You know, squirrel has
a significant flavor.
I like it, but you
know, it's a squirrel.
Yeah.
Like if you a
squirrel, you're like,
that's not chicken.
It looks like chicken.
It's not, doesn't
taste like chicken.
So you have these,
um, powerful flavours.
And, and this is where
you would talk about
gamey meat in the sense
that, um, that it's
gamey in the way that
the may, that word was
meant to be used, in the
sense that is a, it's
a meat that has its own
flavor as opposed to off.
Right.
So that's an
interesting thought too.
I've seen discussions
and arguments over what
makes game meat tastes
gamey where some have
a very strong gamey
flavour and some don't.
And I think, uh, Rinella
did some stuff testing
meat by rubbing a
knife on a scent gland,
and then cutting the
meat with it to see
kind of what flavour
that would impart.
And some people will
be put off by the
whole gamey flavour and
some meats will stay
stronger than others.
Do you have any thoughts
as to what will make
one game meat taste
gamier than the other
of the same species?
I actually wrote an
entire article on it.
If you Google the words,
gamey meat, you will
see my article on it.
Oh, there we go.
Um, so the short
version is this.
Yes, absolutely.
Um, there's a number
of things that affect
flavour and the
strength of the flavour.
Number one is diet.
Okay.
So a sagebrush eating
animal is going to be
more strongly flavoured
than a animal that
eats farmed grains.
Uh, two, species,
which is sometimes
also deals with diet.
So a white tail in Iowa
is going to eat GMO corn.
A white tail in the
Sonoran desert of
Arizona or Mexico is
going to eat whatever
it is you can find in
the Sonoran desert, is
going to taste radically
different at the same
species, different,
different region.
So now you've got ducks.
There are, I don't know
how many 20, some odd
ducks that we hunt.
There's a lot, a lot
of different species.
And they range from
they range from
scooters and sea ducks
and harlequins, which
are the most pretty,
but most disgusting
duck on the planet.
They're vile.
Never had one.
They stink.
Um.
Yeah okay.
I mean, if you skin
them, you can eat them.
But like, basically this
is like Newfie food you
know, they eat ters um,
and ranging from them
to, um, to pintails,
which are never bad.
Right.
Wood ducks, which
are never bad.
To then you've got the,
you know, ducks like a
Mallard, which can be
anything from vile to
sublime, depending on
now, again, diet and diet
also involves region.
So even within
California, you've
got wigeon on the
Humboldt coast.
So the North coast it's
visually exactly the
same as British Columbia.
And they, these
particular sets of
wigeon fly up and down
the coast and the eat
sea lettuce and seaweeds
and stuff, they are
legendarily disgusting.
Like disgusting,
horrible, just stinky,
stinky, stinky.
I mean, yes, you
can skin them, but.
However, same species,
if it flies inland and
ends up in the rice
fields where I live,
it's unbelievable.
It's one of my favorite
ducks in the world
because it eats rice
there and same bird, same
region, different diet.
Interesting.
So there's one other
big thing that affects
gameyness in terms
of just no matter
what you do with it.
Cause we're not,
we haven't really
discussed game care yet.
Um, but, and
that's hormones.
So it is 100% true
that a rutty buck
is going to taste
differently from the
buck that is after the
rut or before the rut,
because their hormones.
Now stress hormones are
a big deal and anybody
who raises animals
for food knows this.
This is why the, the,
the meat industry has
developed enormous
protocols to make sure
that the animal that is
about to be killed is as
calm as possible because
you can taste adrenaline,
just like, you know, you
hear it, they'll say you
can smell fear, which you
can cause it's, you know,
there's their hormones
and things excreated
through the skin.
Right.
You can taste adrenaline.
So people who shoot
running deer or running
pigs or running antelope,
that's going to be a
different flavor from
an antelope that never
knew what was coming.
Interesting.
And people who shoot
rutty bucks, um, which
is unfortunate because
everybody wants to,
because that's when they
get really dumb, I guess
if you've ever watched
videos of, of rutty
bucks, it is exactly
like watching 23 year
olds in a nightclub
at about midnight.
All they're doing
is staring at
the girl's ass.
Yep.
And they're like,
Ooh, let me look at
that, oh that's perty.
And they're doing dumb
things and they're
fighting each other
and it's it's, it's it.
Anybody who says, Oh
yes, we're so much more
elevated than animals.
Like yeah, you should
just look at that, it's
pretty much the same.
That's funny.
So yeah, that
affects a lot.
And then there's
game care.
I mean, I'm assuming
everybody is taking care
of their game cleanly
and nicely and with ice
and coals, you know,
that kind of stuff.
So bad game care
can cause off
flavours in a hurry.
Um, putting game meat
on a tarp is one thing
I've heard is a big
no-no and then other
people will do it.
Some people lay down
bows of branches.
And so they can put
their game meat on that.
Cause they say the
tarp will infuse
a terrible flavour
into the game meat.
I don't know about that.
Not unless it's a
disgusting, dirty tarp.
Right.
Like if you wash
the in between
hunts, you're fine.
Right.
Like.
That kind of makes sense.
I mean, if you enclose
it, you should make a
bag out of the tarp and
the meat sort of stews in
its own heat, you know,
then yeah that's bad,
but just laying it on
the tarp, that's just,
nothing wrong with that.
Yeah.
I know a fellow and he's,
he'll get a whole bunch
of ice and he'll put
it inside the, uh, the
cavity on his deer and
then washes it all out.
And I don't, he swears
by it, I can't imagine
that's the best game
care method out there.
It's not ideal because,
and this is why,
because the, I mean,
assume he's not talking
about big blocks ice.
No.
Even if he did, where
ice touches meat,
it, it damages meat.
Right.
Um, and when ice melts,
uh, once the Meltwater
gets about 40 degrees,
it becomes a reservoir
for bacteria and there's
lots of bacteria, the,
in a cleaned gut cavity.
So I, but let's assume
he's hunting where
I do in that a zones
where you can hunt
a deer in a hundred
degrees of weather.
So if you were to gut
that deer, take the
tenderloins out because
otherwise tenderloins
are going to get hit
by ice and wrecked.
Um, and he threw a bunch
of ice in the cavity for
like an, I don't know,
half hour, an hour.
That's not going
to hurt anything.
It'll cool the carcass
down pretty quick.
But soaking, that's an
entirely different story.
That's a Texas
thing, they do that
in Texas a lot.
They like, they will
bury a game, a skinned
game animal in ice.
And yeah, they're
like, Oh, it takes
all the blood out.
And like, yes, it does.
And as long as it's say
it's under 40 it's, it's
food safe, but it results
in a very white washed
out meat that lacks
any kind of flavour.
And if that's what you
want, go for it, but most
people don't like that.
Okay.
Well, while we're
on the topic, I've
got another fellow
and he says, talking
about hanging meat,
hanging your big game.
And I always approach
it from the sense
that hanging or aging
your meat is an enzyme
related thing that helps
break down the tissue.
I might be wrong.
Uh, he approaches it from
it's the weight of the
animal, and that's why
you don't hang a lighter
animal as you would,
perhaps a heavier animal.
The weight will
help stretch out
the tissues and.
Nah, he's wrong.
Help break it down.
Wrong?
Wrong.
Yeah he's just wrong.
Okay.
I have to play
this for him.
Now I'm not saying
that there is zero
mechanical effect of,
of, of aging, but that's
not what aging does.
Like, no, it's,
it enzymatic.
It's enzymatic and,
um, in some ways, I'm
trying to think how
I'm trying to make
him right somehow.
And if you were to
make him right, he's
kind of, he may be
observing an effect that
he's not, that isn't,
that what's going on.
So, so if you hang
a deer, let's say
it's blacktail.
Okay.
Because we're both
on the West coast.
So you're hanging a
blacktail in the garage,
the mechanical effect
of hanging that deer in
a proper temperature,
um, we'll just let
it get through rigor.
You know, it'll take a
day, two days, sometimes,
sometimes three days to
get through rigor mortis.
And when it gets through
rigor mortis, that's,
that's not mechanical,
but the hanging process
keeps, will keep the
deer from like, doing
this right, to rigor.
Um, it'll keep everything
stretched out, but
I've, you know, I've
put skinned quarters in,
in a cooler above ice
say, it's not touching
it, but it's cool.
And they don't curl up.
So I, no, it's it's,
that's a hundred
percent enzymatic.
You hope it's not
bacterial because, um,
you, you can get that.
There's a thing called
bone sour with things
like elk and moose.
Right.
Where there's so much
heat in the animal that
even if you skinned
it and hung it, um,
it can still go south,
right at the ball joint
of the hip usually.
Um, and so typically
what you'll want to do
in a big ass animal,
especially if it's
in a hot weather, is
open that meat up.
So quarterings fine.
But even then, like,
I've seen, I have seen
the thighs, so the
full hindleg haunch
of a moose or a, or
a nilgai, or an elk,
it'll rot at the bone.
So what you do then is
you, as you take these to
say, you have a hindleg
and you, you make a cut
from the ball and socket
joint, tapping your
knife on the femur bone
all the way to the knee.
And then just, you can
kind of open up that
meat just a little bit.
You're going to make that
cut anyway to debone the
leg anyway, but it just
adds another angle to
cool off the interior
that may cause that meat,
because like, you know,
it's, you know, can't
even, it's huge, it's
It is.
This thick and it
needs time and, and,
and the ability to
cool off very quickly.
So, but yeah, this is,
it's not mechanical.
It's, it's
within the meat.
Cause you can, you can
stick a piece of meat
on a rack and through
enzymatic action
over the course of
several days at 33, 35
degrees, uh, anything
under 40 is okay.
Okay.
Um, and it will loosen
up and it'll get tender
now real aging, real
aging is 100% enzymatic
and that's then you're
talking three weeks.
Okay.
Minimum.
So the, the, all of the
studies show that if you
dry age, a piece of meat.
And by the way, you
only dry age things
that you're going
to cook medium rare.
There is zero
reason to dry age, a
shoulder or a neck.
You could, it's not going
to hurt it, but you,
you braze those anyway,
so what's the point.
So you, you dry age
things like a hind leg
or the back strap, and
nobody can really tell
the difference between
something that's been
aged like five days
and something that's
been aged 14 days.
You start to notice
once you get to
be about 20 days.
Okay.
So, and in fact it's
a, it's a, it's a
logarithmic curve.
Like it goes from,
eh kind of, to whoop.
And, and then, um,
once you get to be all
the taste studies that
I've read, say three
weeks the sweet spot
for broad acceptance
in and pleasure
ability of eating that
meat three to four.
Once you get past four
weeks, you start to get
kind of cheesy notes.
Um, I don't know
if you've ever had
really super, super,
super aged beef.
Um, but it's cheesy.
It's sort of.
Yeah.
Blue cheesy.
Um, and not
everybody likes that.
That's an acquired taste.
Right.
So that'd be like a René
Redzepi sort of thing.
Oh yeah, yeah.
That milk cow
that he did.
Yep.
No, no.
I think that was
Magnus Nilsson.
Oh, was it Magnus?
Yeah, I think it was
Magnus who did it.
Okay.
Yeah, that's right.
That's right.
So birds, I had one guy
say he likes to hang
his birds until their
heads fall off, then
he knows they're done.
Stop, stop, stop.
So you had one guy who
says that he does it?
I've never
seen him do it.
I've never
seen him do it.
He says, Oh yeah,
this is how you do it.
I've never
seen him do it.
Of course you haven't
because nobody does.
Thank you.
It's a rural myth.
Thank you.
As far as I know, this
originated in the eternal
fight between the French
and the English, of
which you Canadians
are very aware of.
So it used to be said
by the English, that
the French would hang
their pheasants until
their heads fell off.
And it used to be
said by the French, in
French, of course, that
the English would hang
their pheasants until
their heads fell off.
As some sort of
denigrating, kind
of like yeh-he.
That's right.
Now that said you do
hang, you do hang, um,
birds quite awhile.
You know, you can
hang them in the
right conditions for
a couple of weeks.
I don't, because
again, you get to
that high gamey, that
sort of cheesy, um,
funky, really funky
aroma that you either
like, or you don't.
I like five days.
Um, five days with
the wild pheasants
are really good.
That's like the three
weeks with, uh, with
the beef or the venison.
Five days, under
40 degrees.
Yes.
Well, it doesn't have
to be under 40 degrees.
In fact, pheasants, um,
and upland game birds.
And I don't fully
understand why, I don't
fully understand, I need
to look into this, but,
but red meat aging is
always done very close
to freezing and below 40.
Birds aging, and this
is includes things like
rabbits in England.
I don't really age
rabbits, but well,
who do they want
it just below 60.
So it's much more
similar to the, um, to
the aging of salami.
So you don't age salami
under 40, or if you do,
it takes exponentially
longer for that salami
to be worth eating
because you don't get
that ferment, that
is bacterial action.
Um, And so they're,
they're, the sweet spot
in the bird studies
because there's been
a lot of them because
they, you can sell
wild game in, in
the United Kingdom.
Is that 55 is your sweet
spot because above 55,
you start to get listeria
bacteria growing.
Okay.
And over 60, the
listeria kind of take
over, which is bad.
Right.
But this between 50
and 55 is the ideal
temperature for birds,
which I find fascinating
because it's like 34 or
36 for, for red meat.
Interesting.
Not entirely sure why it
could be the feathers.
It could be the, the
fact that you're, you're,
you're aging a bird hole.
Um, now the caveat to
that is you can't age
a goose or a turkey or
something of that size
without cutting it.
Um, all the others, you
can, you can gut or not.
Okay.
And you?
And I don't.
You, you don't gut?
No, because I mean, with
a pheasant or a grouse
or something, I don't,
because it is a lot
harder to pluck a bird
that has been gutted than
it is a bird that is,
where its skin is intact.
That's a good point.
And the skin's where
all the flavour is.
Uh, yeah.
Yeah.
Like if you're going
to age it, you better
damn well pluck it,
cause otherwise,
why did you just go
through that exercise?
You know.
A hundred percent.
Is there anything
else that we should
be talking about
about this new book?
Yeah, I mean, I think
I just said super
excited about it.
Like it feels like a
culmination book, you
know, it feels like, you
know, this is arguably
the last in this series
because we've covered
the game animals and you
know, now efficiency food
and I'm I'm, I may or
may not do a plant book.
Uh, and if I do do
a foraging book,
I'm not going to
step on Sam's toes.
I'm going to focus
on the West coast.
Um, and it feels kind
of like the, the,
uh, maybe this is the
kind, the last of that
triplet title, you know?
Cause all my books are
like Hunt, Gather, Cook
and Buck, Buck, Moose.
Right.
Cottontail.
Hook, Line and Supper.
Yeah.
Um, I think the cool
thing about it is
that the process of
writing this book
took a lifetime.
Whereas the others
were more of a project.
This feels a bit
more like a memoir.
There's a lot of personal
information in it.
Uh, there's a lot
of stories in it.
There's fam, my
family's in it.
That's cool.
Um, and I think the, uh,
accessibility of this
book is exponentially
larger, especially in
the last one because
there's only 2 million
upland, upland hunters
in North America and
that includes Canada.
Anybody can buy fish and
anybody can, anybody,
you know, can just
go to a fish market.
And so this book is
accessible to anybody
who goes to a fish market
as it is to an actual
angler and it like,
it is the first book I
think I've written where
gunfire is not involved.
So, um, I am really
a little nervous,
definitely excited about,
uh, the possibility
of having a book that
is applicable to,
uh, not just the hook
and bullet crowd.
And, uh, I think the
hardest part about
this is going to be
to spread the word.
So, um, it will,
in Canada, it'll be
available on amazon.ca,
but it will also
be available, um,
distributed in regular
bookstores by Chelsea
Green is actually the,
the, uh, the company
that is distributing
the book in brick and
mortar stores all over.
Okay.
Um, so you'll be able
to get it just like you
would any other book in
Canada and definitely
United States too.
And the only thing I,
I like, I, this book
is going to live and
die off of whether
people like it or not.
And if all I can say is
if you get it and you
like it, tell somebody
else, because in this,
in media environment,
the only way that these
things have any success
is through word of
mouth and through, uh,
they call it social
validation is the
actual term is like,
so, you know, leaving
a review on Amazon or.
Right.
Or, or social media
or that kind of thing.
And it's, it's daunting.
It's daunting because
here's a book that could
potentially do very well.
And because it could
help a lot of people
become better fish
cooks, not just anglers
and, but people have
to know it exists.
Right.
So get it, read it.
Yep.
Leave a review.
You can pre-order it now.
What's that?
You can pre-order it now,
it will, um, via either
through Amazon or through
my website, uh, which
is, which is the easiest
way to get to my website
is HuntGatherCook.com.
Okay.
But that just redirects
it to Honest-Food.net.
Hunter Angler Gardener
Cook is the name
of the website.
That's really the
core of what I do.
I mean, it's, I, I have
a pretty strong Instagram
presence where I'm hunt
gather cook on Instagram.
I, and I that's
the social media
I like the best.
Um, the website is
of course Hunter
Angler Gardener Cook.
And then I do run a
Facebook group, that's
a private group called
Hunt Gather Cook.
And it's cool because
it's got guys got
22,000 members now, and
it's a no drama group.
It has everything from,
you know, people who
really adore the former
administration to people
who really hated their
former administration.
That's awesome.
And everything
in between.
And this, there's zero
politics, there is, um,
I police it very heavily
for that because it's,
it's important for people
to come together over
what they do share, which
is a love of wild food.
And, you know, you have
to answer questions
to get in so that,
um, uh, so I know that
you're not some weird
bot from Indonesia
or China or wherever.
Yeah.
It's a fantastic
group actually.
And you police that,
you moderate that
whole thing yourself?
Yeah, I am.
I mostly do all
the moderating.
There's a couple other,
my, a couple friends,
a guy named Sean and
a guy named Christian
who help me out.
Very cool.
Well, Hank, thank you
very much for coming on
The Silvercore Podcast.
As usual, it
was a pleasure
speaking with you.
Always.
I can't wait to
get to Canada.
Someday you'll
let us back in.
Soon, soon, it's
happening soon.
Is it?
They actually have
plans for that?
Ah they say.
Ah yeah they say.
They said that
you're going to
get a vaccine too.
Yeah they said
that too, yeah.
Well, they say 4th of
July or no, you guys
said that, 4th of July,
the borders are opening.
Oh really?
That's what the, that's
what we saw brandin
around in there.
That goes well for
the hunting season.
It does.
It does.
Yeah.
Thanks Hank.
Yeah.
Thanks for having me on.