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If you could ask God one question what would it be? The “Why God Why” podcast is dedicated to exploring the questions that matter most in your life.
Deep questions often don’t have easy answers. We realize that we won’t solve all the world’s problems in one podcast. Our goal is to share our life experience, interview knowledgeable guests and look at how Jesus might interact with our concerns. We also hope to have a ton of fun in the process because even though the issues might be serious, it doesn’t mean that we always need to be.
No matter where you are on your spiritual journey, we are honored to have you with us!
>> Gage Hunt: Hi, this is Gage from why god? Why? We're in the midst of a season titled the credibility of Christianity, and we are diving into all types of topics like faith and science, politics, diversity, faith and beauty, or superficiality and more. And as we go through this season, we want to hear from you. We're going to do an episode at the very end of the season where we discuss the whole season and on to listener questions. So as you listen along and you think, hey, I wish they talked about that question further, or, they didn't really hit on this topic related to the episode. We'd love to hear from you and get a chance to discuss it together. So as you're listening along, if that occurs to you, send your question you'd like us to discuss to Peter@browncroft.org. If you're extra savvy, send us a recording of your voice actually asking the question, and we can include that in the episode. We'll only share your name if you give us permission, but we'd love to hear from you with that. Enjoy the episode.
>> Peter Englert: Welcome to the why god, why podcast. My name is Peter Englert. I am here with one of my friends. We've had him on before. It was one of the top listen to episodes. I'm here with Jason Cusick. He's a pastor in southern California, and he wrote a book called the Anxiety Field Guide. Jason, let's have some fun. Is there anything more anxiety ridden than two people trying to get a virtual podcast to work?
>> Jason Cusick: Yes, especially for me. I am so technologically challenged, even. How am m I talking? What's going on? Yeah, so we're coming right out with that. But we were doing some good exposure therapy. Let's get in there and just keep at it. So thanks, man. Thanks for your grace.
>> Peter Englert: Well, thanks for your grace, too. Well, here's the good news. today we are asking the question, why does Christianity make us anxious? With the subtitle, why do podcast recordings make us anxious? And, we've had you on before on the anxiety field guide, and here's something else to make someone like me anxious. We don't know if this is going to land in a series on the credibility of Christianity or if it's going to land questions of our day. So maybe I'm already releasing things to Jesus. We'll find out.
>> Speaker C: Well, I'll keep both of those topics in mind, and we'll just kind of believe in the providence of god or the serendipitous ways that things come together that it'll all work out.
>> Peter Englert: We'll just say, let go and let god. Right? Because that's helpful.
>> Speaker C: A good idea.
>> Peter Englert: Before we jump into this topic, I think we had you on about a year and a half ago. give us a little update. How are you doing? How's your family?
>> Speaker C: I'm doing really good families. I've got a 24 year old, a 22 year old, and a 17 year old. So they're all out of college, getting ready to leave college, going into college. So a lot of transitions in the house, but it's ultimately a really good time. And then this last summer, my wife and I got a chance to take a trip overseas, and we got to visit a couple of our global partners that we work with here at our church and do some vacation as well. But it was really interesting to go overseas and experience what we might consider not just a post christian culture, but a post post christian culture. and it was fascinating. It was great, amazing people. We went to Estonia, and Sweden and France and M. It was a great, really, really insightful, did a lot for me.
>> Peter Englert: One more fun question, because I think our listeners should get to know you if they haven't heard the last episode. What book are you looking forward to reading the most in 2024, besides the Bible?
>> Speaker C: I just finished m reading some books on, highly sensitive people and sensitivity, it's something I want to share a little bit with you today, but I'm getting ready to read a book called the highly sensitive man. And this idea that there's kind of a view of masculinity that is a very strong, dominant, kind of recklessly, resilient picture of masculinity, which I actually don't identify with. I consider myself a very sensitive person, and I think there's a lot of blessings that go along with that. But learning about that with myself particularly addressing me as a man. So I'm pretty eager to dive in to see what that says, see how that can help me.
>> Peter Englert: You're not the only sensitive man here. Did people ever tell you, because I grew up when it was okay to joke around and be sarcastic, and they would just be like, you just got to get tougher. And, I know this isn't like the topic, but I think it could lead in there. I feel like my sensitivity has been more of a, ah, liability than something that's helpful. But when people want the sensitive pastor, that's when I show up.
>> Speaker C: Yeah, I grew up in kind of more of the artistic drama group where sensitivity is just a normal thing. Sensitivity is your ability to feel the room and understand what's happening in you and be able to communicate your emotions. So it was always embraced. I wasn't a jock. I, wasn't in these circles where those kind of things would have been, made fun of. So I grew up in those atmospheres where the value of that was seen. And you're right in a lot of ways. There's a lot in marriage and family as well as in christian circles where the value of that sensitivity is seen.
>> Speaker C: and is appreciated. and I think that's probably what we need to be able to celebrate is say, see, these are the people in our churches that are on the prayer team. These are the ones that are the good listeners. These are the ones that are attentive, and have a pulse on the congregation. And then also that comes with a shadow side. we who are sensitive can be easily overwhelmed. We can be a little bit too reactive to our emotions. We can put the emotions we're feeling on to other people when it isn't there.
>> Speaker C: And then of course for a lot of us, it can increase our anxiety and even make faith and christianity an anxious experience. How about that for a segue into the. I did the segue for you see, it can make our Christianity an anxious experience.
>> Peter Englert: Maybe we should just retitle it like all the assumptions you've gotten wrong about Christianity. But no, we're going to go with that segue. before we get started, we're going to dive into some super specifics and I think sensitivity is one of them. You wrote this book called the Anxiety Field Guide, which I think is more helpful for the individual. And I think the reason why I wanted to have this conversation with you is we don't always talk about with people that are deconstructing or doubting how Christianity makes us anxious. How did you come across this topic? What were the events? What were you thinking about? Who were you talking to help people understand the context.
>> Speaker C: I, think in some of my early experiences of Christianity, so I didn't grow up as a Christian or a religious person. I would even say I wasn't necessarily even a spiritual, person. So when I came to faith, I was super excited to find god and to read and learn the bible. But there was within me some anxiety and kind of a latent perfectionism. So I think when I jumped into Christianity, it was like, I want to do this right m I want to please god. And how do I know if I'm doing it right. I was talking to my daughter last night about this podcast that I was going to be on today, and I said, the question is, why does Christianity make us so anxious? And I said, what do you think? She's 17. I said, why does Christianity make some people anxious? And she said, because christianity is, you're supposed to have a relationship with god, but how do you know if it's a good relationship or not? And I said, yeah, I mean, we're basically inviting people to have a relationship with an invisible being who is nothing like them. And so the very core of it is, it is on its surface very inviting to say Christianity is not a religion, it's a relationship. But that assumes that we do relationships well and we feel comfortable in relationships and a lot of us don't. A lot of us are like, I'm anxious about my relationships and now we're adding that element, of the god of the universe as being the one that you're going to be in a relationship with. And for all the consolation and peace and joy and love, that also brings a level of tension and anxiety and uncertainty. And I think I pick that up on a regular basis, not just from myself, but especially when I talk to people who not only are new to faith, but people who are deconstructing their faith, and more often from people who are everyday christians that don't feel like those kinds of anxieties are appropriate to ask.
>> Speaker C: In a christian setting.
>> Peter Englert: What are those anxieties that aren't appropriate to ask? What does that look like?
>> Speaker C: I think that there are some standards within our, let's say more evangelical or bible communities. The thing of, is there something I can do to lose my salvation? M have I done something to, quote, blaspheme the Holy spirit, which Jesus kind of says, but it's kind of steeped in a lot of ambiguity. What specifically are you talking about, Jesus?
>> Speaker C: Is there something I can do to lose the love of god or the favor of god? And again, for each one of these, there is actually a Bible verse that can answer it. But, I think sometimes faith, in our churches can be kind of transactional. Oh, you're feeling this. Here's a Bible verse, and if you understand that Bible verse, then those feelings won't be there. And I think that's maybe the challenge as we're addressing the topic of anxiety and maybe highly, sensitive people.
>> Speaker C: That faith is not as transactional as I'm having this feeling. Here's a Bible verse. Now I feel better. And we know that. I mean, I'm kind of oversimplifying it a little bit. We know that that's not how it operates. But the reality is, I think there is quite a percentage of people who are anxious, and are living in that space of what do I do with these anxious feelings, especially if there are Bible verses that are encouraging me not to feel this way.
>> Speaker D: M.
>> Peter Englert: this might be a little bit off track, but I like where you're kind of going with it, because I think the transactional part is probably where most people, the 24 year old named Greg is kind of struggling with. Your, parents tell you you shouldn't drink because you'll get drunk. And then Greg turns 20, you know, 21, and he's like, whiskey tastes great. What's the big deal? but here's kind of, I think, a good case study, because I think there's people that wrestle with this. So you have Josh Harris, who writes the book I kiss dating goodbye, and he, all of a sudden, long story short, deconstructs his faith, asks that book not to be printed. But there's enough christian truth in that of finding the right person to marry mixed with, I would say, cultural anxieties like, don't kiss until you're married. Don't, you have to court.
>> Speaker D: The.
>> Peter Englert: Fact that you would single out another individual. And I guess I use that as a case study because the goal was, and I think even Josh Harris, back when he wrote the book in his 20s, he wanted people to experience healthy relationships. But the whole process of how it got there was just wrought with anxiety. Don't have sex before marriage. don't date a ton of people. I'm wondering, let's take that as a case study. How would you kind of deconstruct that? Not deconstruction like Christianity, but how would you deconstruct that within this question of Christianity?
>> Speaker C: Yeah, great question. So I think if I were to. And I've heard Joshua Harris's story, and I resonate with it a lot, because I think there's two things going on in his story. Let me say what my story is. There is, good christian theology, and then there's me. And then I think, as they came together, this middle space was what I would call anxious theology. And that is a combination of where my anxiety begins, interpreting the truth of god. M so, for example, I can hear Jesus say, go preach the gospel to all nations. And then I can bring to it my concerns about being pleasing to god and I can manufacture a false urgency.
>> Speaker C: Where now I'm imposing my faith on other people, not because I, want them to experience the love and kindness and forgiveness of god, but because I have a call that I must complete. And you can see that false urgency perpetuated in church circles and among christian leaders and among people that we know. And again, there's verses we can connect to it, but that's not really what it is. Another one is, like you just mentioned, maybe a tendency toward excessive black and white thinking. it's this way or this way. Now, if you read John, either the gospel of John or letters of John, he says there's this and know, I mean the proverbs. So you got good and you got evil, you got the wise man and the fool. And there's this binary way of looking thing, which is really wisdom genre.
>> Speaker D: Hm.
>> Speaker C: Because life is a little bit more ambiguous. And we see that as you read through the gospels. Because even if I say it's not as black and white, then you get kind of this recoil to, what are you saying? Are you saying the gospel isn't true? So again, in anxious theology, there's that tendency to bring that black and white way of thinking to the scriptures. And we can find things that back it up. Labeling, negativity, minimizing things, catastrophizing things. These are things that sometimes we bring from the anxious self or the anxious culture, or sometimes we're raised either in anxious home or in an anxious church community. And then I don't want to say we impose it on scripture, but it's almost like we interpret it through the lens of our anxiety.
>> Speaker C: And I think deconstruction for some people like you described, is not necessarily deconstruction of the theology. It's the deconstruction of how we have interpreted it. And of course, sometimes they deconstruct the theology too, because they're so enmeshed. I got to get rid of everything, which I don't think is the right move.
>> Speaker C: But sometimes deconstruction becomes, a reinvention. In fact, the word I use in our church is not deconstruction. I said, we can do deconstruction, but let's use the biblical religious word for it. Let's call it reformation.
>> Speaker C: Jesus said, you have heard that it was said. Now I say to you, you may have heard that it is said, if you have sex before marriage, you are going to hell. This is the worst thing. And your marriage night's going to be terrible. But I say to you, god loves you and we all make mistakes. And if we move in the direction of where Jesus is leading us, we can experience great joy and great blessing.
>> Speaker C: You have heard that it is said if you blaspheme the Holy Spirit, there is no forgiveness. But I say to you, or, and I say to you, if your heart is sensitive and open to following god and you have a tender hearted approach to pleasing god, you're not going to blaspheme the Holy Spirit.
>> Speaker C: So I think some of that deconstruction, at least in what we're talking about, the deconstruction has to do with kind of acknowledging the reality of our own sensitivity and anxiety and seeing how that has caused us to interpret or misinterpret scripture that feeds that anxiety rather than comforts us in it.
>> Peter Englert: So I kind of want to back up because I think this is helpful for our listeners, especially ones that aren't going to church right now. Because number one, you start with transactional, theology. So if I do this, god will do this. And then that really leads to anxious theology where I have to do this. And if I don't do this, god won't love me or god will hold out on me. But then that leads to, I guess I'd put it like this, and maybe I want you to organize it differently, but it's just not working for me. so you go from transaction to anxiety to it's not working for me. And all of a sudden either you live in that anxiety and you become like the Pharisees, where if you see a rated r movie other than the passion of the Christ, I'm questioning your christianity, or you just say, I'm done with it. I mean, does that kind of sound like a pattern or would you pattern it differently?
>> Speaker C: I think definitely that third stage, maybe we could say it would just be dysfunctional because it could go toward it's not functioning. Meaning it gets worse in the sense that I become pharasaical. that I become overly condemning of myself, that I move actually toward, let's say what we would call worm theology. Right? Like, I'm the worst anybody could ever know. I think sometimes we overemphasize sinfulness. See, the first step of the gospel is not Jesus came and died for your sins. The first step of the gospel is not you're a sinner.
>> Speaker C: The first step of the gospel is you're created in the image of god and an object of God's love.
>> Speaker C: But you have in your own ways have fallen away. Right? So I think we sometimes move into over condemnation. I talked to somebody a while back and they were like, well, don't you believe in total depravity? And I was like, yeah, I do, but I think your idea of total depravity is different than my idea of total depravity. He was like, well, what do you think? I said, well, some people think total depravity is we are sinful beyond repair by ourselves and there's nothing we can do and we are utterly depraved. But that's not actually the doctrine of total depravity. The doctrine of total depravity is every part of us is touched by sin. It's not that we're the worst that we could ever be. So I think we can go toward, I'm terrible, I'm nothing, I'm awful. So we can get super judgmental, but I actually think the more likely path we take is toward hypocrisy.
>> Speaker C: That we're saying one thing and secretly believing something else. Or we're saying, you shouldn't have sex outside of marriage. But then, we're having sex outside of marriage. Or we go, homosexuality is a sin and we're gay and we're fighting this internal battle which is really we're fighting our own anxiety and uncertainty. But the weapons we're using are Bible verses and traditions.
>> Speaker C: And then they're reinforced every time we hear a sermon because somebody says a verse and then it magnetizes to our anxiety and it reinforces it again. I don't know if any of this is making sense.
>> Peter Englert: Well, I think where it makes sense is, you think of the Ted haggard scandal, you think of a lot of the pastoral scandals. That kind of gives a little bit of context to this is how it happens. You're dealing with anxiety, you don't feel like you have a place to go. And instead of kind of not managing it, but maybe resolving it through therapy in other ways, it does lead to hypocrisy. I don't know. That's kind of what I'm hearing.
>> Speaker D: Yeah.
>> Speaker C: And I think the resolve, definitely. I'm a big believer in therapy and christian counseling and good shepherding and mentoring, but I also think that there's an invitation toward seeing scripture for what it is. M I, think when we, it goes back to interpretation of the Bible, we all bring our stuff to it. and I think it's being able to recognize what we're bringing to the scripture and whether or not we're seeing kind of the beauty of the christian faith explained through the genres and the authors of the Bible, that can kind of awaken us to maybe a different understanding of what we can experience. So it's kind of a total package. It's community, it's shepherding and counseling and mentoring, and it's maybe a new invitation to seeing scripture differently. And we've all had that where we suddenly are reading scripture and go, I kind of read it through the lens of my dad's voice or I had this guy telling me this, but now I'm looking at this and I'm going, I'm not sure that's what that says.
>> Speaker C: And that's helpful, especially for those of us in kind of Bible traditions. It doesn't mean we need to deconstruct everything we've believed, but a lot of the stuff we need to deconstruct has probably been the add ons.
>> Speaker C: It's probably been the secondary and tertiary theology or the traditions that were somehow buttressed by a Bible verse that are not only okay to jettison, but are probably necessary to jettison, which is exactly what Jesus was doing most of the time with the people he was interacting with. Jesus wasn't getting rid of the core theology. He was getting rid of all the traditions and customs and teachings that were kind of added on and ended up making religion a burden.
>> Speaker C: More than the blessing that he intended it to be.
>> Peter Englert: I love how you're going to scripture, so let's kind of jump in. there's this book called Philippians that is written by Paul, and there's two verses that are really quoted together. So one of them is work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. There's anxiety. And then by the time we get to Philippians four, the last chapter, it's a verse that we quote here a lot. don't be anxious, but pray in everything. and the peace of god will be with you. Rejoice. So one chapter is, don't be anxious. Pray and trust in god. The other chapter is fear and trembling and just kind of process and walk us through, like, why does Christian make us anxious? Exhibit a. Go ahead.
>> Speaker C: Yeah, this is great, those two verses. And again, this shows some of the confusion. Right? We look at this thing, it's like, am I supposed to be anxious or not? Am I supposed to be afraid and trembling? Or am I supposed to be. All right, great thing to point out. So I go back, it's kind of interesting if we understand Philippians correctly, meaning if you just read it in one sitting, like you would a letter.
>> Speaker C: This is one thing I tell people all the time, like, don't read a Bible verse, read a thought unit. If I sent you an email, you wouldn't read the first sentence. Then go, let me think about that for a few days and then I'll get back to sentence two. Right. Philippians is almost kind of a beautiful theological processing by Paul, who, when you read the first half of the book, the first half of his letter, Paul's really taking you on quite a personal spiritual journey from a place of arrogance to a place of humility. And so he starts off in Philippians saying, I could brag about how religiously knowledgeable I am. I can brag about all of my accomplishments, but that's not what it's about. Don't brag about how great you are. Be humble like Jesus and work out your salvation with fear and trembling. So really his audience is not the sensitive, anxious person. His audience in the first part of the letter is the person that was kind of like him. Arrogant, prideful thinking. He had it all together. And his message to that kind of person is, look, you need to be more afraid of god because you think you have it all together. In fact, you're marching around like you've got your religious stuff together. You should tremble, In the sight of god. So I don't think Philippians, I think it's 213, work out your salvation with fear and trembling. I don't think he's talking to anxious person.
>> Speaker C: Because an anxious person is, I got that fear and trembling. I got the humility thing down. In fact, I got the humility thing down on the other side. I actually think I'm not even worth God's attention. M. So what Paul's doing in the first part of that letter is confronting pride. So by the time he gets to the second part of the letter, he's like, well then, now I'm going through this transformation, okay, now I'm not prideful. You're telling me to be humble. You're telling me to really be concerned about my relationship with god. Now what do I do with my anxiety? Well, I'll tell you what to do with it. You don't brag about yourself when you're feeling anxious. You don't go show off. You don't go strut around. You don't try to hide it. You give it to god.
>> Speaker C: So I think this is where some of those verses in the Bible become, I don't want to say weaponized, although I guess if we believe there's a spiritual enemy out there, those things could be weaponized. I think they definitely become magnetized to a person with anxiety. Same thing. Do not be afraid. Right. An angel shows up, and the angel says, do not be afraid. That's a statement that if god comes to you and is bringing a message of love, you don't have to be afraid of that.
>> Speaker C: It's not saying, don't ever be afraid of anything. So, again, we grab that verse out, and we stick it. And then for those of us with anxiety, we go, well, the Bible says, don't be afraid. Who said that? And to who? What's the context of that? Because I think we hear a lot about, well, you shouldn't have fear. And even Paul's talking about not being afraid, but rarely do we hear people talk about, I think it's two corinthians, chapter seven, where Paul says, when we arrived in Macedonia, we had fears within us. And he doesn't say in that verse, and m we had fears, but we confessed those fears, and then we weren't afraid anymore. Or when we arrived in Macedonia, we were called by god, and we had no fears whatsoever. No. He openly says that he had fears. So, I think, when we're looking at verses and this is with any topic, right, we have to say, am I using this verse for me, or is this verse using me in a way to awaken or challenge me in a healthy or unhealthy way? and I think that's the bigger issue with preaching, too, because I think sometimes we can grab a verse because it preaches well, and then preachers can use those and maybe not be aware of the people that they're communicating with might be on the other side of the issue.
>> Peter Englert: Well, one of the things I want to pick out, though, because I think this is helpful even in the context, is the workout in fear and trembling is connected to a verse in Philippians three, one where Paul says, yodi and syntheke, you're in conflict with each other. Work it out. And I just want to kind of bring that to you because I think that reading the whole passage together, and for those of you that are deconstructed, you've probably heard this verse in a horrible context, kind of. Here, let's take this verse out of its context. Let's throw it to something like, don't see movies, don't smoke. Know, when I was a kid, Jesus is going to come back while you're watching diehard. and Diehard is a Christmas movie. but the point is, this verse is actually tied in a political year, in a year that we're voting to a president. This verse is actually tied to the christian community, to two people that are in conflict. And Paul's saying, hey, I want you to shine like stars in the process. I want you to process, the fear and trembling of god. Work it out.
>> Speaker C: Yeah, those two people. And you're right. The context, if you look at Romans, you look at Philippians, you look at these other things, like, who is this actually being written to? And that just raises the bar for community. Right. That's really what he's arguing here, is it's their selfishness and pride and arrogance that was not only impacting their view of god and was not reflecting Jesus, but it was causing damage to their relationships. It's like, you've got to work this out.
>> Peter Englert: So let's talk about this.
>> Speaker C: That's really good. That's a good verse for this year. That's super good, man. Yeah. I forget who the. He actually names the two people in Philippines. I don't have it up in front of me right now, but he actually names the two people, I think, toward the end of the letter or in the beginning of the letter, Yodi, and are having the conflict there. You. Yeah, that's right. You mentioned that.
>> Peter Englert: No, no, it's, Know, for some reason, out of all the stuff I remember from the Bible, I remember their two names. So let's kind of talk about. Yeah, so let's talk about, when not even pastors, but when therapists talk about anxiety, there's healthy anxiety and then there's unhealthy anxiety. And mostly, I think, and again, correct me if I'm wrong, because you've done more research on this. My wife is actually. She wishes she could be here because she's a mental health therapist. But anxiety is kind of like technology. It's just there. And it's kind of like what we do with it. And so I think at the healthiest level with christian anxiety, what Christianity is trying to say is you default to not want to love people, to not want to forgive people, to not want to live out the fruits of the spirit, patience, kindness. How can that move you closer to Jesus? And that might be oversimplifying, but the way it usually turns out is kind of negative anxiety, where it's like you're not good enough. You're totally, you know, a second rate citizen or you start judging other people, I guess. How do you kind of process. It's not just in Christianity, but it's in work. There's a healthy acknowledgement of anxiety. How do you know if it's going the christian direction or the unchristian? Or I shouldn't say unchristian. how is it going to the authentic direction that Jesus wants it to versus maybe where our problems have been in the last hundred years?
>> Speaker C: One of the biggest questions you could probably ask. I don't know where to start with that. I think how you started was really good. I think if we could do a better job at not villainizing anxiety, but just calling it for what it is, I think that helps a lot, even to help us talk to each other, to say, is this anxiety useful or helpful? And maybe we need to relabel. it m because even to say healthy anxiety is kind of oxymoronic, right. I think sometimes we get, well, you should have the fear of god, but not be afraid of god. Okay. So I think helping people actually distinguish that there is a responsiveness, maybe, an energy level to them, maybe an awakening inside of them that can move them toward what god wants to do, or is moving them away from what god wants to do. I think about how Paul talks about godly sorrow and worldly. Know that godly sorrow moves us to a sense of awareness and regret that could lead us toward positive change, but worldly sorrow leads us toward a form of death that is not good. So I think distinguishing those are really good. I also think, going back to what I just said, I think there's a sense when we're interacting with people. is that question of, are the thoughts and feelings and maybe even some of the physiological reactions of my body, are they helping me say yes to the kindness and goodness of god, even if those feelings are unpleasant? Right. There's no bad feelings. There's just pleasant or unpleasant. I'm, reminded of there's, a verse in the Bible that says, don't you know that it's the kindness and patience of god that leads you to repentance? I find that really proper. It's not God's judgment. It's not condemnation, it's not shaming. it's actually when you experience God's goodness that you go, I think I need to change this. And I think sometimes that's not always the religious posture that's put out there. M again, it's transactional, it's corrective. Sometimes it's fundamentally behavioral. Stop doing this kind of thing. Rather than what would it take for you to be more aware of God's kindness and love?
>> Peter Englert: No. That's really good.
>> Speaker C: That answer your question? I just kind of got lost in my own.
>> Peter Englert: Hey.
>> Speaker C: Musings at that point.
>> Peter Englert: Well, I think there's a lot that's there. So let's actually take another scripture, because I think that this is helpful, especially the last part that you talked about behavior, because I think it's Christian Smith that talks about how Christianity in the 1980s and 90s became deist m therapeutic, deist moralistic, therapeutic gospel. There it is. Basically, it means we are going to uphold christian values and behaviors, but they're not connected to the greater vision. It gets me thinking about this, and this is something I think we can interact with. In Ephesians five, there's two kind of commands. So number one, walk as wise, not as unwise, but then walk in the light as opposed to the darkness. And Paul, who wrote Philippians, also writes Ephesians. He does this list of not cheating people, not lying to people, kind of stuff that whether or not you're a Christian or not, you'd agree, hey, it's probably not a good idea to lie to someone. But then he offers kind of the other side where speaking the truth in love, compassionate, even singing songs. And I wonder if Christians have done a really good job of saying, don't do this. But there hasn't been the invitation or even the proclamation of what we call the gospel and the good news of who doesn't want to walk in a wise life, who doesn't want to walk in the light. And so it causes this anxiety because we're kind of aiming at the. We're five or seven degrees off. We're not 45, but we're five to seven degrees off. I don't know. Is that kind of part of the anxiety? How would you kind of process that?
>> Speaker C: Well, let me go back. When I think about, let's say, paul's letters, which are very different than, let's say, the gospels or the four books that describe the life and teachings of Jesus. Paul's letters are divided into two sections, right? And this is like classic, period letter writing. The first part of the letter is what to believe and who you are. The second part of the letter is what should be the consequence of that. Be this person. Second half of the letter is. And then do this. and sometimes the connection between those two are missed. I think they might be missed in maybe our american pragmatism. sometimes maybe mixed in. That is our protestant work ethic, which is very behavior based. I think some of us grew up like that, so that comes very naturally to us, those cultural and maybe home of origin kind of ways of thinking.
>> Speaker C: I. Can I just go back that I, think we need to be careful about the labeling of Christianity as deistic therapeutic religion. I, I think we have to be careful that because one, there's a part of that that's very true. We basically made, if you want to have a better life, then do these things.
>> Speaker C: And then you will be self fulfilled. I think that's modern western theistic deism. Right. So I think that's a problem. On the other side of that. There's something mythiological about that. The language of the 1980s and 90s in the United States is primarily therapeutic. I think the attempt for gospel oriented people is to speak the language of the people, to actually use therapeutic language in order to help them access the spiritual truth that Jesus is providing. So I don't think it's all bad, because again, the goal is to speak the language of the people. but if we're not careful, it can be the gospel as a means for self actualization. That's not really what it's about. It's about transformation of the heart and Jesus's teachings. Not only Jesus's teachings, but going all the way back into the hebrew scriptures. There is a genre called, wisdom. And wisdom really is about living a certain way. Not only be a certain person so you'll live that way, but also live that way so you can be that kind of person. Reminds me in AA, they're like, well, fake it until you make it like, no, you're not healthy on the inside, but how about just stop drinking and you'll get healthier? Or you can move toward getting healthier. and so there is a sense of like, try on the teachings of Jesus and see how they begin shaping you and affecting you. So I think we have to be careful not to totally dismiss that, but to actually recognize changed behavioral lifestyle. And living in a certain way is part of the gospel tradition. Again, I'm not sure I answered your question.
>> Peter Englert: No, I think it's super helpful. It actually kind of sets us up for this.
>> Peter Englert: In 2024, what does Christianity uniquely help with anxiety in this day and age? What is it unique that Christianity offers to what people face with anxiety in 2024?
>> Speaker C: Hope. I think Christianity essentially is a message of hope. It's hope not only within, but above our unpleasant feelings. I think it's hope within and above our physical desires. I think it's hope within and above our culture, our politics, our opinions, the message of scripture from beginning to end. And thankfully, we have a Bible that exists in multiple cultures, navigating through different people groups, in different forms of government, in times of celebration, and in times of despair and exile. And you have this story of all these different people navigating all these different places in life. And there seems to be a message of hope that god is not only here, but is also greater than all the things that we so easily try to put our hope in.
>> Speaker C: So I think in the 2024, whether it's half or more of the country is going to be upset by who's leading it. we've got a lot of scripture about that. If you've got that diagnosis, or you're going to get a diagnosis, we've got people dealing with that. If you have conflicts in relationships, work it out in fear and trembling. I think that message of the gospel is essentially a message of hope. M and I think that's what our culture and our people need. I think sometimes we go for answers. I think scripture goes for hope. we go for certainty. Certainty is the elusive pursuit of the anxious person. It's the maltese falcon of anxiety. If I can just get certainty, I will feel better. But the story of the Bible is wrought with uncertainty. it's an invitation to have hope even in the midst of not being sure. And maybe that's a big challenge for our Bible churches and our evangelical churches is a lot of it is built on the assumption of certainty. If we study the Bible enough, if we pray, if we get deep in the word, then we will know, and we even get eschatological with it. We even say, well, I don't know now, but when I get to heaven, I'll know everything. Really? I don't see that in scripture. I don't see, like, suddenly you become omniscient. There's this deep longing for us to have certainty, because certainty can get rid of our anxiety. But that is an elusive chase. I think the better pursuit is that I can experience connection with god that can help me tolerate the uncertainty, and that's whether or not I'll be mentally healthy, or whether or not my family will get through this, or I'll be financially okay, or my health will be okay, or the person I want running the country will get elected. We, need hope, and we need a faith that functions in a way that helps us pursue god and not the idol of certainty.
>> Speaker C: And I think when we put out there that all of this certainty is possible, you just pray and it'll get fixed, or this is what God's going to do and it's a promise and no matter what, and this is when he's coming back. And if you vote this way, this is going to happen. I think that creates a very anxious Christianity and I think it gets more anxious when those things don't happen. And that's when we deconstruct.
>> Peter Englert: This is super moving. I think it's super helpful. let's kind of end with two questions. I actually want to come back to where we started. so the two of us were sensitive men. you said that. I said that. And Christianity has this weird, it has this weird kind of relationship with masculinity and this weird relationship with sensitivity. Like I find that there's people that will quote that he stormed the temple and ripped the tables versus the Jesus that sits with the children, the Jesus that there, there's kind of this mix and you can usually tell where a person lands based on that. So I'm wondering if in our christian anxiety and this idea of sensitivity, what do we need to pull apart to actually get to humanity, let alone masculinity?
>> Speaker C: I don't know if I'm the best person to think about that or answer that. I will say that I think the value of being in christian community with people that represent all those sides is very important.
>> Speaker C: I think if you and I were in a small group together, we may naturally invite other guys to be in that are just like us. And that might be very comforting in a way, but it doesn't actually help us experience the other side of masculinity. And I think there are churches that are built around a certain idea of masculinity. I think sometimes they're often built on leaders who lead from that place of masculinity. I think it takes leaders, team leadership, honestly, with men and women working together. And if we're talking about masculinity, men who have different expressions of masculinity that can be honored and celebrated and even made fun of and joked around with. because then that helps kind of deconstruct this kind of image that's m out there. so I think being in community with people who, because masculinity is not one thing, it's cultural. And sometimes it's cultural just from your home of origin. It's not even the culture of the country or the town or the larger family. So I think we have to acknowledge, hey, these are cultural things. and that means they're not sacred. They might be valuable, but they're not sacred. And we need to be willing to break down some of those things.
>> Peter Englert: Wow.
>> Speaker C: Community is a good way to do it, but it does take work because we tend to gravitate to people who are like us, and that's not what the gospel is. The gospel is all nations, languages and people groups, which means all types of men finding community with each other.
>> Peter Englert: I think that that's really good.
>> Speaker C: I also think preachers have to be very careful about the reckless cultural things they say. Well, you know guys, we love our football. No, actually, a lot of guys don't like football. Oh, you know, well, boy, we need to have a men's retreat. We need to go out camping. Well, there's a lot of guys that the last thing they want to do is sleep outdoors. but with me being a sensitive person, I have to make sure not all of my references are about pop culture, tv shows I'm watching, and interesting things that I've done. I need to go to some sporting events, I need to exercise, I need to make reference to things that are outside my personal experience or outside my natural defaults if I'm going to lead a diverse group of people. And that's what leadership is. It's not just doing what comes naturally. Leadership is recognizing the diversity of the people that you are leading. And it's having the self awareness enough, to recognize what is essential to the gospel and what is cultural, and therefore can not only be discarded, but at times it is necessary to be dismantled.
>> Peter Englert: Wow, what a place to close. let's give some final thoughts. you and I probably do two or three calls or zooms during the year, so everybody gets a little insight into what we talk about. so I'll give my final remarks and then whatever heresy, or mess up or you can kind of take care of from there.
>> Speaker C: any heresy that I want to share, I can do after yours.
>> Peter Englert: There you go. I think this is an important question that you can't answer in a podcast. Why does Christianity make us anxious? I hope that if you're deconstructing, or if you're doubting, or if you want to quit church and christianity, I hope in hearing this conversation it leads you to just name it, to name the anxiety, to name the misunderstanding of scriptures, maybe the misuse of scriptures. A lot of pastors mean well. A lot of pastors don't mean well. and I'm hoping that in engaging this topic that you can see that Christianity offers a lot to 2024 in the middle of an anxious year of hope, of grace, of living life in a way that you can live out of your identity, of who god created you to be. and I think by even acknowledging that there is anxiety, it actually brings hope that we don't have to face it. So that's what I'd say. What about you, Jason?
>> Speaker C: Yeah, I was thinking about a book that I read last year. It's about church history. It's called bullies and saints. And, it's kind of a picture of the good and evil side of christians throughout history. And the author makes a really interesting metaphor. He says that what Jesus communicated was like a well crafted and written symphony piece.
>> Speaker C: That throughout history has been played beautifully and has been played horribly.
>> Speaker C: and I think if you experience anxiety because of trying to wrap your mind around what Christianity is really about or not about, maybe you're on the negative side of you have some church hurt, pastors have hurt you, decisions at church have hurt you, christians have hurt you. Some of you have been actually victimized.
>> Speaker C: If your expectations weren't met, or if you're wrestling through the relationship between you and god, Jesus and the bible, I'd love for you to think that Jesus actually has a beautiful symphony that he's written and that it would improve your well being to continue to pursue that symphony, even if you've heard it played terribly by others. I remember the first time I walked into a church, and I was very anxious. I had experiences with religious people in the past. I didn't know what to expect. I didn't know a lot. But god met me there. god met me when I opened up the bible for myself and just started reading it for myself. And I remember god meeting me in the quiet moments of saying, okay, god, I don't even know if you're there, but I'd like to know. And so whether it's a start or a restart, I think it would improve your well being, and I think it would be really fulfilling. And, I'm going to be praying that you're able to take that step. M because there's really an arm of a non anxious person who understands human anxiety. Jesus did, but is not anxious anymore. That's reaching out in love, says, come join me. Let's figure this out together.
>> Peter Englert: Thank you so much. That's what a powerful place to close. Jason, if people are looking for you, where can they find you? Where's the best place?
>> Speaker C: Our church, journeyofaith.com. That's where all of our messaging is and, ah, a bunch of other resources. So that's the best place you can reach them.
>> Peter Englert: Awesome. You can find us. whygodypodcast.com? Click the subscribe button. Also, feel free to email me personally. Peter@broncroft.org. Your questions. Jason, thank you so much for joining us. We're so glad you were with us today with this episode. Thank you.