Chapter + Verse

From the heartbreak of losing her father to finding hope, Jill and Ben guide us through their emotional journey of grief and forgiveness. Be inspired by their testimony of resilience and grace.
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What is Chapter + Verse?

A faith-forward podcast for people who love Jesus but also love being honest about how weird and wonderful life can be. Hosts Kerrye and Jill tell stories about the Bible, talk about their faith, and dig into what it looks like to follow God through the ordinary chaos of everyday, imperfect life. Real conversations. Real stories. No pretending to have it all together. Pull up a chair, turn the page, and let's go.

Welcome to Chapter and Verse, where people
tell real stories about faith, failure,

redemption, and those "Lord, I'm gonna
need you to explain this one" moments.

Some stories are inspiring, some
are messy, some are miraculous,

and some probably should have
come with a warning label.

But through every chapter of
every story, God has a plan.

And he's never been
afraid of a little chaos.

We're Jill.

And Kerrye.

Let's turn the page

Welcome back to Chapter and Verse.

This is a great episode because
it's about, it kind of connects to

our very first episode with Jill.

A little bit.

It's a story that Jill has about her
father, and we have her husband Ben here.

Hi.

We're, we're gonna need
you to talk louder.

Oh, I'm here.

We're gonna quit it.

But we will have both their
perspectives on this, and, um, I'mâ¦

We don't even have to find
out anything about you.

Nope, we can just jump right in.

'Cause this is gonna be all about you.

Please tell me about your life.

Wow.

How were you raised?

I don't, uh- Tell me about
your wonderful husband.

How?

How did you meet such a wonderful man?

Well, I can tell you one thing.

He's from the South.

So that's how, what's one of
the reasons he's wonderful.

One of the reasons he's wonderful.

He is.

There are a lot.

Um, do you really want to tellâ¦

Do you really want me to
tell you about- About what?

â¦ like backstory of how we met?

Why not?

Let's start it off with the- All right.

We can- Oh, we can always edit it
out â¦ the good, the bad- We'll, we'll

just start and go â¦ and the ugly.

Listen, there's some bad- From all
of it â¦ maybe that should be a part

of my story with this, this- Yeah.

If you decide to

take it over- What bad?

â¦ you just go ahead.

This crazy, you know- This crazy family
â¦ Flint town girl came and rescued me.

The whole family.

Hey, no, no.

No, no.

Oh, wait a minute.

I rescued her from the ghetto.

Never mind.

We're better.

Yes.

We're better than the Flintons.

Listen, ghetto adjacent.

Ghetto-ish.

Say it right.

Ghetto adjacent.

Okay, Jill.

All right.

Take it away.

So- Robert T.

Longway adjacent.

Yeah.

Okay.

That's a phrase that only
Flinttonians would know, or whatever,

Flintstones, whatever you call them.

Flintstones.

Is that what y'all call
your- Flintstones, yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

Flintstones.

It's really original.

Okay.

Yeah.

I mean- Yeah, steal from the

best, you'll never- It's cute.

The Flint- I'm just kidding.

I'm just kidding.

We were about to have
a serious conversation.

No, I think Bugs Bunny, butâ¦

Yeah, I could go with
Looney Tunes as a whole.

Yeah.

Like the Bugs Bunny crew.

Yeah.

What do you think, Ben?

Maybe Thundercats.

That wascally wabbit.

Yeah, it was the best.

Yeah.

That's why I woke up on Sunday morning-
Did you- â¦ or Saturday morning

Did you ever watch Thundercats?

No.

You weren't allowed to watch Thundercats.

Probably not allowed.

I don't even remember about it.

Thundercats was great.

Yeah.

I didn't, I didn't even see Thundercats or
He-Man- You didn't have TV We couldn't do-

until I was older.

I still was able to watch Bugs
Bunny at my grandparents house.

We couldn't do Smurfs.

What about you?

Could you do Smurfs?

I didn't know Smurfs existed
until I was an adult.

I was allowed to watch Smurfs.

And now, and I got to doâ¦

Yeah, I got to have the characters,
but I couldn't watch the show.

That'sâ¦

Weâ¦

Can we please have Judy and Aaron on?

Please.

They don't wanna come on.

I wanna ask all the questions.

I just don't re- I remember, like,
getting snippets probably when I was at

other people's houses, but- Probably.

Anyway.

Like commercials or something.

Yeah.

Yeah, I got to watch them
at my grandparents' house.

That's when I first watched
"Saved by the Bell."

I think that's where I watched it, yeah.

I mean, we, I grew up- "Boy Meets
World" â¦ solidly middle class.

We had cable, and we were allowed
to watch all the television.

We got to watch that, yeah.

There was no shows off limits?

No, I mean, there were shows that
were off limits, but, like, we didn't

ha- Like, if it was a cartoon, in,
in the '80s and early '90s, cartoons

were all, like, children-based.

Like, there weren't, there wasn't
such a thing as, like, Adult Swim

and, like- Yeah â¦ cartoons that were
designed for- "Simpsons" or something.

I was only- Exactly.

I was only able to
watch- Funny- â¦"Looney

Tunes"- I was allowed- â¦ and
"Tom and Jerry."

That was it.

I was allowed to watch "The Simpsons."

I didn't get to- We sat and
watched "The Simpsons" as a family.

I didn't get to watch
them until I was an adult.

Yeah.

With my mom.

Most of the, most of the stuff went over
our heads 'cause, you know, we were kids.

But, I don't know.

It doesn't matter.

All right.

Well, I think we've clearly made
the point that the South is better.

Yeah.

So.

Or at least better than
the Ballard household.

They said they- No â¦ don't
drink sweet tea, so we're better.

Which I have right here.

Yep.

Go ahead.

Okay.

So if we're talking aboutâ¦

We'll just start from how
you and I met, I guess.

Oh.

Is that- Okay.

Okay.

All right.

Right?

Go ahead.

I mean, are you avoiding- Tell your
story â¦ the serious issues orâ¦?

I, you know what I think I am?

I, I need to wade in.

This is not a, this is not a
cannonball- All right â¦ episode of me.

I need to- We'll start like Methodist.

We'll sprinkle it on you.

No offense to our Methodist friends.

No offense to our- And I don't
even know if they listen or not.

They smiled, you know.

They, they probably don't
even listen to this.

They're probably sitting there going,
"Well, at least we're not Lutheran."

I feel like you're a lot funnier
than the last time you were on I'm

telling you- It's because I'm here.

I've warmed up.

I had to, I had a opener come
out and warm up the crowd for me.

Yeah.

You had to get your feet wet.

Okay.

So we talked in, in our very first
episode, we talked about how I ended

up going to a, um, Pentecostal church,
like a non-denominational- Mm-hmm

but Pentecostal church.

Mm-hmm.

That church had, um, an
evangelist come and speak.

What a cool guy.

And I don't know he's a real cool guy.

Looked like a Viking.

He thought you looked like a Viking?

Yeah, 'cause he had the, the- Oh, well,
yeah, like the, what is that, a Van Dyke?

Van Dyke.

Yeah.

Yes.

I, I was-

He had crazy hair â¦ thinking about
his, like, Sanford and Son hairdo.

He had crazy hair and, and the Van Dyke.

He did have a little fro.

Great guy.

Um, but anyway, his name was Roy Scates,
and he's wonderful, amazing dude.

And, um, he came a couple of times, and
throughout his visits, his daughter Beth

came with him and sang and did her whole
thing, and Beth and I became buddies.

And Roy and Beth, and their
family obviously, is from a little

town in Arkansas called Avoca.

So I ended up coming to Arkansas.

Avoca is just outside
of Rogers, by the way.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

For the people in- Northwest
Arkansas â¦ listening.

I mean, people have access to maps.

If it's really important,
they can look it up.

Listen, you gotta, you gotta be
descriptive for your listeners.

I'll leave that to you.

Okay.

So, um, I came and visited Beth.

Um, my friend Tonya and I came
and visited Beth, and while we

were here, we decided to go to see
Lord of the Rings in the theater

'cause- One of the best movies ever.

Yes.

Definitely.

Um, 'cause why wouldn't you?

Mm-hmm.

You know?

So we decided to go, and we were on
our way, and for some reason, they

decided to stop and pick up Ben.

Yes.

And- It, it- â¦ you know, I was d- I was
on vacation, so I was down for whatever.

Just for the, the, the purposes ofâ¦

So Beth and I are the same age.

Actually, I think I'm a
little older than she is.

I'm like a month older than her.

I think you're solidly
between her and Karissa.

No, no.

We're, w- we're born- Are
you- â¦ the same year.

I'm just- Oh, okay â¦ like a
month or two o- older than her.

Oh, okay.

There was a group of us in our, in our
youth group, um, at the time we were

going to Mercy and Grace Cathedral,
and so there was a group of us-

Now we're calling out names today.

What?

I'm just, normally I'm just
like, "Eh, just church."

That's where our y- "I don't know"
â¦ that's where our youth group was.

Anyway, it was in Springdale.

Um, there was a group of I
think six or seven of us.

It might've been seven of us
that were all the same age.

Like, we were all within six or seven
months apart, like all the same age,

and me and Beth were one of them.

Um, so we ca- became friends.

I was slightly crazy.

She was just like me.

Slightly crazy.

We, so we hit it off really well.

We were good friends.

And, uh, but I grew up with sisters

And so her and Karissa basically
just became like, like my sisters.

Mm-hmm.

They would come over and
hang out in my apartment.

Actually, Karissa and Beth both,
I think, had keys to my apartment.

Yeah, I think so.

We were just like family.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Soâ¦

You were living with Joe
at that point, right?

Joe and I were room- Okay

my, my brother's name is Joe,
for people who don't know.

Yeah, people may not have
listened to that episode.

Yeah.

Um, so my brother and I were roommates,
um, at an apartment in Rogers, um,

which is, you know, 10, 15 minutes
from- Avoca â¦ Beth's house.

Yeah.

But yeah.

So Karissa was going
to college at the time.

She was going to nursing
school, I believe.

I think she was already nursing.

She was already a nurse.

I think she was working at Northwest.

Well, rather than driving all the way
back to her house on her breaks and stuff,

she would just come over to my apartment.

So if she had like a long break
or a lunch break or something like

that, she'd just come over and
nap on the couch and whatever.

Yeah.

We were, you know, just friends.

You know, what you do when you're
in college and- Yeah â¦ young

adults and- Yeah â¦ yes.

And our, you know, I gave her a key- Zero
responsibilities â¦ I gave her a key to

the apartment and was like, "Whatever,
you guys wanna come over, hang out."

I wasn't always there 'cause I was
working, um, I was working on the

road for a construction company.

So a lot of my time was gone.

I was-- I would work for two weeks
and come back for two days, and work

for two weeks, and then occasionally
I'd have a little more time off.

But this happened to me one
of the times when I was home.

Yeah.

Actually, I think maybe I'd
just, I think I'd just stopped

working on the road at that point.

I think you might've been.

I had just stopped, so
yeah, I was back, back home.

I don't, I don't know.

I don't remember.

I think so.

I don't know.

It's been a long time ago, and a
lot of head injuries since then.

Um, but anyway.

Suffice to say.

So I was home.

Let's just say I was home, and
I was doing what I normally

do, cooking myself some dinner.

And I was cooking

gravy and biscuits.

The best thing ever.

Yeah.

Crazy that I did that back then, but- Yes.

I love making them â¦ um, I was
in the middle of stirring my gravy

and Beth came bouncing in the door,
"Hey, you're gonna come with us."

And I said, "What?"

I said, "Well, I'm, I'm,
I'm making my dinner."

She goes, "Put your gravy
water or your gravy water away.

You're coming with us."

So I turned off the
stove and away we went.

Okay.

And Jill was- That right there,
that's a, that's a crime.

That she just turned
off the- Yes â¦ gravy?

Just take the gravy with you.

Well, it wasn't done.

If it wasn't ready.

I had just started it.

I know.

It, it hadn't even started to thicken.

She goes, "Put your gravy water away."

Yes.

And, uh, and when I went out, Jill
was standing in the parking lot

talking on the phone, I think.

No, I was talking to Robert.

Talking to another guy, yeah.

That, that sounds bad, but Robert
was just another friend- Another

friend, yeah â¦ who was with us.

Yeah.

And we did not think that, like,
five of us busting into Ben's house

would be super appropriate, so Robert
and I waited outside in the car.

Well, well, well, yeah, 'cause Beth
and I- I guess it would've been

four- Four â¦ 'cause it was Karissa.

No, five.

Five, yeah.

That's right, 'cause we ended
up six deep in the Saturn.

Yeah, yeah.

C- c- We did not have enough
seat belts â¦ well, Tonya, you,

and Robert didn't come in, but-
Right â¦ Karissa and Beth bounced in.

Yeah.

So I didn't meet Jill until I got to the
parking lot, and they briefly said- "Hi"

"This is Jill."

Yeah.

"She's my friend from Michigan."

In the car we went, off we went.

Yeah.

So what was your first impression of Jill?

Oh.

Not good, huh?

Uh, this Yankee here.

Well- Well, it might be myâ¦

Listen, I was trying to make a
joke, and she didn't have any

sense of humor at that point.

No, no.

Nope.

That is not how I recall.

So she was trying to merge off of the,
the interstate in the Fayetteville- Not,

hey, it's his perspective â¦ in the, in
the Fayetteville- I, I don't know this.

I hear your side all the time.

Oh my goodness.

So, um, I'm in the backseat.

I think Beth was in the backseat.

All of you were in the backseat
except for me and Karissa.

I was driving.

That's right.

We're all forward.

And I- We were crammed in his backseat.

Now, mind you- â¦ could not
understand why no one else would drive.

I don't know where I'm going, and there
are four people who live in this town,

none of whom would be willing to drive.

Maybe that's why they didn't wanna drive.

Well, I was in the
backseat behind her, right?

Mm-hmm.

So she starts to merge off of
the interstate into Fayetteville-

Okay, in my defense- She's not
letting me finish the story.

She's not going to â¦ in, listen-
She won't even let- In my defense-

You'll have your rebuttal in a minute.

Fine.

Let him say it.

Fine.

Go ahead.

So we're merging off- By all means â¦ off
the interstate, and I, um, being funny

'cause I thought it was a good joke,
just screamed, "We're all gonna die."

And this Yankee- Started yelling
at me from the driver's seat.

And I'm in the backseat going,
"What are you bringing us

in here?

What's sheâ¦"

Some choice words going through my head.

What's- She can't take a joke.

She needs to go back up north.

Yeah.

So that's, that's our, uh, that's So she
got onto you because you s- yelled that?

Yeah.

Well- And she was sharp, too.

She was very rude.

Oh, well, imagine that.

I can't even picture you
that way anymore, Jill.

You've mellowed quite a bit.

It's, it's a testament to you.

That's it, folks in
the South with a laugh.

Listen, in my- I don't see
any of you wanting to drive

What if you could see the
little neck shake he did?

That's why we made the video.

Yeah.

It's the, it's the correct motion too.

It was.

Yeah.

It was definitely the correct motion.

And honestly, honestly, the f- when
you did it, I was like, the first

person I di- I thought it was Chloe.

'Cause Chloe looks more like you.

Which might as well be Jill.

Yeah.

So I was like, but she looks
more like you, I think, at times.

And so I was like, "Oh, there's Chloe."

Well, in my defense, A, no
one was willing to drive.

ABC.

I did not know where I was going.

I think your first word
was, "That is not helping.

I don't see any of you wanting to drive."

And it wasâ¦

The neck and the hand
that time â¦ I flip it.

And then we were coming up, uh, he
says I was merging off the highway.

It, that is not an accurate assessment
of what was happening because I was in

the outside lane of a three-lane highway,
and they're like, "Oh, this is our exit."

As I'm, I'm almost on, I had to
cut off two other lanes of traffic

in order to get to this exit, and
that is when he decided to scream.

Well, we were having a good time.

You were having a good time.

So was he.

So- Join us â¦ it was not
love at first sight, for sure.

No.

First meet.

No.

So- But it was pretty much better
by the next day â¦ did that suck

all the air out of the vehicle?

No.

I think y'all didn't care-
No â¦ that she was snappy.

No, I think- Well, and I sna- I
think- Like, listen, you said it

was snappy- Here, here's the thing

but it, it was also just like- I
think â¦ light-hearted â¦ Tonya,

having known Jill, probably went, "Ooh."

Beth probably just went, "That's funny."

Mm.

And I just went, "What?"

And then I don't even know
if Robert paid attention.

Then y'all had to sit through
a three-hour- Well- Movie.

No.

Oh, y'all didn't go to the movie?

No, we went to the movie.

We went.

We went to the movie, but- Apparently
she thought I was dating Karissa.

You cuddled.

Well, that's what we
Southerners do in the movies.

Apparently so.

I didn't know.

S- and, and to be fair, like, I didn't
know anything about- Well, like I

remember- Yeah â¦ like having friends,
and they were not boyfriend or anything,

but I would like link arms with them.

Mm-hmm.

In movies.

And they, like- Yeah â¦ he like
threw his arm up around Karissa,

and she snuggled up into him.

And, which is, uh, like
listen, I don't care.

Go ahead, do your thing.

I just went, "Oh, I didn't
realize that maybe they're dating.

Are they-" Well, both
of the- "â¦ together."

Okay â¦ the Scates family and my
family, we're all touchy feely people.

It's, it's hugs.

Mm-hmm.

It's what, you know, it's
just the way I was raised.

You're affectionate.

We're affectionate folks.

Yeah.

So we were the same.

Yeah.

So I treated her like she
was one of my sisters.

Yep.

That's what we do.

Yeah.

And, and this stuck-up Yankee's
like, "Pfft, they must be dating.

We don't touch girls."

I just didn't, well, also- But her
family does this thing where they

sit in a room across the room from
each other very quietly with a cup

of coffee or tea and have a quiet
conversation, which is creepy.

Well, yes.

Oh, my gosh That just reminded me of
a scene from My Big Fat Greek Wedding

where they were just sitting there.

Mm-hmm.

Remember?

And having- Yes â¦ a civilized
conversation, and nobody

got loud, which was weird.

Yeah.

So anyway.

I say that tongue in cheek, 'cause you
know- Yes â¦ my family- I know â¦ my,

my family shouts at each other.

After the movie, we- And we aren't
even mad After the movie we went

to Common Grounds- Yes â¦ right?

And, um, which is like a little
coffee shop, and we s- we

shared a piece of cheesecake.

It's true.

So we, we got over it.

Like, it's not like- Listen, I
was, I was willing to forgive and

forget â¦ either one of us were.

Yeah.

We were not harboring
a grudge or anything.

That's what we do here in the South.

Yeah.

We, we forgive.

Well, clearly I did too.

It's 'cause I'm fly.

'Cause you were in the South.

I was in the South.

Oh my gosh.

I feel very attacked right now.

Well.

Well, you shouldn't have invited us.

I was a hot little Jewish-looking
boy, you would find.

You're Jewish?

No.

He- Oh.

No, he just looked Jewish.

I thought he was Jewish.

Okay.

I was like, "Wait."

I spent all of my days working
out in the sun with no shirt on.

Oh, so you just got- And I'd let
my hair grow into like ringlets.

He's very tan.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

So she thought I was a
Jew, 'cause you know.

Okay.

Listen, there's a little picture.

Like, you, you look,
you looked very Jewish.

Anyway, so we-

We shared the cheesecake.

We were cordial.

It was fine.

And then I think the next day we all
went shopping and then ended up at

Beth's house and watched a movie- Then
when, then did you start to like him

and you liked her or was it still-
No, I mean, we, at that point we were

just kind of like, "Oh, they're notâ¦

Like, they're cool."

Yeah.

You know, like I c- at that point I
could tell why Beth was friends with him.

Till she started to ridicule me.

I didn't ridic- when did I ridicule you?

Here's you a chest What?

Here's you a chest

It's funny.

It's, it's true.

Oh my God.

Yeah.

It's one of the first things
that she, uh, was like, "Oh my

God, this is like-" "Oh my God."

See, what did you say?

I can't even do a Yankee accent.

No.

It's too hard.

If she can- When we were in this- She
can't hardly do it anymore either Yeah.

Where, where were we?

What store were we in?

I think we were in, like,
TJ Maxx or something.

It was a TJ Maxx, yeah.

Yeah, and it was just- It was a really
cool-looking little chest, and I was,

I was funning around with Be- Beth.

I was like, "Here's you a chest."

And- I think it was Karissa.

I think- Was it Karissa?

â¦ Beth was working.

I think we were, we were
just shopping with Karissa.

Oh.

It was me, you, Tonya, and
Karissa and- Okay â¦ Robert.

And I said, "Here's you a chest."

Do you see anything funny with that?

I meanâ¦

Say the truth.

Kinda.

See?

It's still funny to this day.

What would you say if you
saw a chest for someone?

Well- Is thisâ¦

Okay, this might get edited,
but is this person flat-chested?

Oh, no, no.

I- That's where my mind went.

No, no, no.

This is not what we're talking about.

I know.

No.

We're talking about a ch- no, no.

I know what you're talking about, but
I guess she- But she's talking about

the, the, the- â¦ you said- Apparently,
what they would say in, in Yankee

town is, uh, "Here's a chest for you."

Okay.

Or, or simply- "Is this a nice chest?"

Okay.

"Look at this chest."

And instead I went-
Yeah â¦ "Here's you a chest."

Why is that so funny?

Here's you a chest.

She did it.

That's exactly how she said it.

Uh, that's why it's funny, because it'sâ¦

Yeah.

Apparently, the words
weren't in the right order.

Got it.

The words were not in the right
order, and your accent- Here's youâ¦

Okay â¦ was much more pronounced.

So no, that's not funny to me.

But I'm picturing whoever you
were saying that to flat-chested.

Here's you a chest.

This is gonna be a very long episode.

That's gotta get edited out.

We can't talk about that.

Especially- Anyway â¦ it'll
probably offend her, whoever it is.

So you're gonna have to edit
out like- It, it was me.

He was talking to me.

Oh.

I was talking- Yeah â¦ yeah.

Okay, gotcha.

Yeah.

He was just pointing at it like,
"Here's something you could buy."

And I'm like, "What?

Here's all what we need."

Well, here's you a chest is not aâ¦

That's, I mean, that's just properâ¦

That's a proper sentence to me.

Listen, I didn't think it
was- Here's you a chest

funny, like hilarious, like it
was- But you thought it was cute.

I thought it was comical that he,
with, combined with his accent and how

slowly he, like, drew out his words
and the fact that he put the words

in the wrong order, I thought that
was like, "What is happening here?

Where do I even-" He should've just
said, "Here is a chest for you."

Yes.

Or, or simply, "Hey, here's a chest."

That's, that's how the words
go Here's your chest Here's

your chest Here's your chest.

I can't, I can't with it Who thinks
here's your chest is a fine sentiment?

Take a poll Me I mean, oh my
gosh Ooh, you've been outvoted

Okay Okay.

We're back on track.

All right.

Sorry That's not why we got
married, though I led you astray.

You were led astray You can, you can
tell how, you know, comedy came in

and cocked it a bit Yeah, for sure.

Like, he's a funny dude Yeah, for sure.

Yeah.

So when did it blossom into more
than just, like- I, I had gone

back to Michigan- Years and years
It was, like, years and years

Um, I had gone back to Michigan
and, um- Who called who first?

I called Ben.

She called me, yeah.

Yeah.

Out of the blue.

She pursued you.

Is that why?

Because you like- Well, I had been
told that, like, I would ask when I

would talk to Beth on the phone, I
would ask about Robert, I would ask

about Ben, 'cause I had met them.

But did you like him?

Not at that time, no.

Like, I mean, I thought he was handsome-
She did â¦ but, like, I- She couldn't

stop thinking about me â¦ he was also
a thousand miles away from me, so I

was just kinda like, "How's Robert?

How's Ben?"

And then Robert started calling me, and so
I was chatting with Robert all the time.

So I'm like, "This is
potentially buddies."

You know what I mean?

And then I was being told by Beth
that Ben was asking about me as well.

Like, Ben would be likeâ¦

What?

Is that true?

Yeah.

So she- He made it look like, "Really?"

Yeah.

It could have happened.

So then- I don't know.

He-- Yeah, exactly.

He doesn't know.

He doesn't remember.

And Beth is not typically one that lies.

Like, she just doesn't- She-
Yeah, she's an honest girl.

So I had no reason to think that
this was in- inaccurate information.

And so I can't remember
why I ended up calling you.

But basically-

Basically, I just was like, "All
right, we should just talk."

Like, or Beth was like, "You guys-
Oh â¦ if you're asking about each

other-" What you told, what you told me
is that you were asking Beth about it,

and she's like, "Well, just call him."

Yeah, you have said that.

Okay.

Well then maybe that's it.

So then she gave me your number,
and I told her I would call

her back in like 10 minutes.

Did you say, "Found me a chest"?

No.

I called him.

That would've been a fun sentence too.

"Found me a chest."

You sure did.

Um, so I ended up calling him, and
we talked for like three hours.

Yeah, first time.

I did not call Beth back that night.

Did y'all both like each
other after that three hours?

Yeah, I think so.

Yeah.

I mean, at that point I definitely-
I don't even know what we talked

about â¦ we talked about everything.

Yeah, but we talked like- Well, I th- We

just- I thought like, "Oh, okay.

Hmm."

And then, I'm-- I definitely, I liked
him more 'cause I got, I got to know him

more in three hours of just conversation.

And then I, when I realized like,
"Oh, this might be something," was

when you called me the next day.

Mm-hmm.

And I was like, "Oh, he still
wants to talk to me, even though

we just talked for three hours."

And then I came for a visit, and you
didn't even hold my hand, and I was

like, "He does not like me at all."

See how we girls think?

Mm-hmm.

I was just being nice.

Yeah.

Treating her different.

And I almost beat up a girl.

It was like a whole thing.

Well, you gonna let that go?

And move on from there?

Yeah.

I, uh, uh- I didn't really

I was inâ¦

So the reason I'm having, I have trouble
remembering a lot of this is that through

this period, um, I was in the middle
of a pretty, uh- You were depressed.

Yeah.

But I was also in the middle
of a, a pretty heavy alcohol

addiction at that point.

Well, yeah.

Um, I was rarely sober, so.

When you talked to her, were you?

Rarely.

Not, not a lot.

Yeah.

I'd, I'd go to-- I was still playing
the guitar in Sunday morning service.

Mm-hmm.

Drunk.

Yeah.

So- He, he had a tough time.

Yeah.

We were having a tough time.

Um- So when did it really like- Start.

That, that time he didn't hold your hand-
Um, we- â¦ so he didn't- We- No â¦ we

met in February, at the end of February.

We started dating in May.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

And then we were married in December.

It was that, it was that trip, wasn't it?

Um, yes.

Oh, still, yeah.

So I came back from that trip.

Stephanie and I had, had come to Arkansas.

You didn't hold my hand.

I went back heartbroken because
at that point I was, like, fully

invested, and I did not think you were.

And then Bogie had had enough,
my friend James Bogart.

Um, shout out.

Shout out Bogie.

Um- Is he even listening to this?

I have no idea.

If you are, let us know.

If he does, like, hey.

Um, but- Yeah, hey, you little creep.

You called me.

I didn't even know who you were.

So I was lamenting about how I was
just head over heels for Ben, and

he didn't care about it at all.

And, um, Bogie was just like, "No, no.

Boys don't call girls every
day if they don't like them."

And I was like, "Mm-mm.

I went down there.

He didn't hold my hand."

He was like, "I'm telling you, no."

And we argued for several days about
whether or not this was, who was correct.

And he finally- Just called him?

He-- No, he finally just
said, "Give me your phone."

And I was like, "Bet," fully
expecting him to bluff.

Um, he did not bluff.

So he called Ben from my phone
and, um, Ben did not answer.

probab- I think you were
playing baseball or something.

I don't remember- Oh, I forgot â¦ what
was happening â¦ yeah, I was

playing softball at that point, yeah.

Um, so he called, left Ben a message that
basically was like, "Hey, this is Bogie.

You don't know me.

I'm friends with Jill.

You need to tell her.

Like, you gotta have a
conversation with this girl.

You gotta tell her what's up."

And I was like- Like either poop or
get off the pot or something â¦ okay.

Yeah, pretty much.

And, um, and I was, Iâ¦

Even while he was leaving the
message, I thought he was bluffing.

Like, I didn't realize
he actually did call Ben.

Mm.

And hung up the phone.

I was like, "All right, there you go."

And I was like, "You did not call Ben."

He was like, "Oh, yes, I did."

And then he told me what
Ben's voicemail sounded like.

Oh.

And I was like, "Oh, no."

So now I'm dreading the phone call
'cause what am I gonna say to Ben?

This is terrible.

And then Ben called me that night,
and we talked for a little bit,

and he was like, "Who's Bogie?"

And I was like, "I'm not
prepared to talk about that."

No, we're gonna talk about that.

And he was like, "All right."

I was like, "Mm, no, I'm not, not, mm-mm."

We still didn't end up talking-
So- We did end up talking about it

we did.

We talked for, like, anotherâ¦

We, like, talked for two hours that
night, and then we were getting

ready to hang up the phone, and
he was like, "Wait, wait, wait.

You didn't tell me what
Bogie was talking about."

And I was like, "Ugh."

So he ma- he made me say it.

Yeah.

So- Yeah, boys are.

Yep.

So I just told him that I was aware
of our circumstances, but that,

you know, I would not be opposed to
being more than friends with him.

And you tried to get out of it.

Yeah, I tried to save
you, but you know what?

He's being a nice guy.

Yeah, he was like, he's
like, "I ride bulls.

I do all this risky behavior."

I was like, "No, you don't."

Yeah, I do.

All of this I would have to deal with
being friends with you, and he-- you

were like, "I guess I have a girlfriend."

I was like, "What?"

Oh.

And that's how that happened.

Yeah.

That's sweet.

And then, you know.

And then- Six months
later, we were married.

Yeah.

Pretty much.

Yeah.

That's great.

It's crazy.

That's great.

So, yeah.

I traveled there, uh, it was- I like it.

It's been 24 years almost â¦ so
you traveled one more time to me,

and then I traveled once to you.

Yeah.

And then we got married, yeah.

I think you traveled, you came to
Michigan for Stephanie's wedding in July.

Stayed a week there, I think.

Mm-hmm.

And then how- And that's when you
decided we were getting married

Like that's when you were like,
"What's our wedding gonna be like?"

Oh, yeah.

And I was like, "Oh."

I was like, "Is this where
we're talking about?"

And you were hammered- I was â¦ at
that time, and so I did not, did not

hold it, like- You didn't expect me
to remember â¦ in any way or manner.

I did not expect him to remember anything.

I thought he was just
talking out of his head.

And then the next day when he was
sober, he was like, "La, la, la,"

something about wedding, and I
was like, "Oh, you were serious."

Yeah.

And you were like, "Are
we not getting married?"

And I was like, "I mean, we hadn't
talked about it, but I'm fine."

So yeah.

And then you know what the ne- it's
really funny 'cause we talked about that.

And then the next conversation we had
about getting married, she was like,

"So, um, were you serious about that?

'Cause I'm planning a trip."

No.

We had had other conversations.

We had other conversations.

'Cause I've already
got it all planned out.

We're getting married in Vegas.

We had, we had started planning a
wedding- Yeah, we had â¦ for like

the following year, and it- Sort
of â¦ it's difficult to plan a

wedding, uh, from a thousand miles away.

It's difficult to ask one person's
family to travel a thousand miles

and have the other one be there.

It's, it, all of, everything
about it was rough.

Mm-hmm.

So, um, we were discussing it one night,
and I think I said something along the

lines of, "I don't care about a wedding,
I just wanna be married," and you agreed.

Yeah.

And then- We'll go to JP.

I don't care â¦ and I was
like, "All right, cool."

And then the next day I went to
a travel agent and booked our

whole wedding, everything, paid
for it, paid for plane tickets.

Like, I did all of it, and just
lumped it down, and then called him

and was like, "I really hope you
were serious 'cause I have just-

Paid for and planned and
purch-, all, all of the things.

We're getting married December 12th.

All right, I guess I'll tell them now.

Were you like, "Okay."

Were you really fine with it?

Yeah.

We were.

You know, when someone says,
"This is what we're doing."

Yeah.

It's a, it's, it's like, you know,
uh, I wish- I say it all the time,

like if I didn't wanna be married
to you, I wouldn't have said yeah.

I wouldn't have, I wouldn't have-
Yeah â¦ I wouldn't have even bothered.

Yeah.

Um, so whenever I told her that,
you know, I wanted to marry her-

But so- That's about the time I
decided it didn't matter when.

That was in October.

Yeah.

So we had, we had just seen each
other for Joe's wedding- Yeah â¦ his

first wedding, um, in September, and
we didn't, we- at that point, we were

still planning for the following year.

Yeah.

And then the next month
we were just like, "Mm-mm.

Nope."

And then, so in the middle of October,
I was like, "No, let's get married.

We're getting married December 12th."

When did you see each other again?

Thanksgiving.

Thanksgiving, yeah.

He came for Thanksgiving, and
that's when- That's when I- â¦ he

technically proposed to me.

Yeah.

I met all her family and everything.

So two weeks before we got married-
And they didn't talk you out of

it when you met all the family?

Well, I mean- Eh â¦ they couldn't
have talked me out of anything anyway.

I didn't believe them.

You didn't believe them.

But fun fact- Nobody trusts anybody
â¦ no one- Nobody trusts the Yankees

no one warned me about Ben.

No, they kept their mouth shut.

They waited- Yeah â¦ until literally we
had just gotten married, and then you'd

called Joe, I think, and I talked, and
I had talked to Joe several times on the

phone, and he had never said anything.

And then he was like, "Okay, now
that you're married, there are some

things I need to tell you about Ben."

Yeah.

I was like, "What?"

Yeah.

Just let you find it out.

Yeah.

So how long y'all been married?

It will be 24 years in December.

24 years.

It's made it work.

Yeah.

I do, uh, I distinctly remember
making, like, I don't even, I don't

even remember what point in our
dating it was where I decided, "Yeah,

I'm gonna spend my life- She'll do

I'm gonna spend the rest
of my life with her."

Mm-hmm.

I don't remember it being like
this profound thing, but it was

just like, "Yep, I'm gonna be
with her for the rest of my life."

Mm-hmm.

And that's been my plan ever since.

Love is a decision, isn't it?

Yeah.

It is.

It is, yes.

It is definitely- We've said that a lot

a decision.

Yeah.

It's a choice you make.

Love's a choice you make every day.

Yep.

Yeah.

Um.

Sometimes it's harder than others.

Yeah.

Some days you may not like
them, but you always love them.

Lately it's been good.

Yeah.

Okay.

Well- So- Now- So-
Yeah â¦ we're gone past that.

So let's jump into July 11th.

Oy..

20- 2017.

2017.

Yep.

Tell us how that started.

Well, that started very early-
You were living in Russellville,

Arkansas â¦ in the morning.

We were living in, in Russellville, um-
So we had just had Chloe's birthday.

Chloe's birthday is July 7th, and
we'd gotten her a kitten, and so

we were dealing with two adult
cats and a new kitten in the house.

We were dealing with that,
and so I wasn't sleeping well.

Which kitten was that?

That was- Melody â¦ Melody/Eleanor.

Oh, that's right.

Yeah.

Hold on that.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

And, um, and so my phone rang at quarter
to 5:00, 5 o'clock in the morning-ish.

Yeah, that's pretty early.

And, um, which is unusual.

My phone does not ring.

B- at that time, Ben's phone would ring
occasionally in- Oh, a lot â¦ crazy

hours of the night 'cause he was on call.

Um, he was a detective.

I was kind of about a year and a half
in- Yeah â¦ in CID at that point.

So, um, my phone was ringing, and that
was unusual, so I answered the phone.

It was my mom, so I was like,
"This is super weird, too,"

but Michigan is an hour ahead.

Like, they're on Eastern
Standard Time, and we're Central.

So I was like, "Okay, well, I mean, it's,
it's 6 o'clock her time, so maybe, I don't

know- Mm-hmm â¦ what was happening."

So I answered the phone, and my mom,

she just said, "Jill?"

And I said, "Yeah?"

Super confused 'cause it's 5:00 AM.

And she said, "Dad's
been shot and killed."

Like, that, that was how it was.

It was just, like, flopped into my lap.

I remember hearing the phone ring
and then her s- saying, "Hello?

Mom?"

And then I've-- she just said

What?

Yeah

What are you talking about?

And then she just stood up and I-- It
was something in the tone of her voice.

Yeah.

'Cause I was-- I remember hearing this
like just I was barely awake and there

was something in the tone of her voice.

As soon as she said
that, I was wide awake.

Yeah.

Like normally that
doesn't happen, you know?

Yeah.

I was wide awake and
like, "What happened?"

Mm-hmm.

And, uh- You know â¦ she didn't
give me very many details.

She, at that time, she said, "Dad's been
shot and killed, um, in a home invasion."

And 'cause my first
thought, my dad drove, umâ¦

My dad worked for GM for his, like
the bulk of his professional life,

and then he retired, and then he
got bored as lots of retirees do.

And so he decided to go get his
CDL and drive a bus for the city

of Flint, so for the MTA system.

So my dad had been driving a bus
for years at this point, and I

thought something had happened,
because Flint is a dangerous place.

It was- Why wouldn't you call me, you
know- Yeah â¦ early that morning?

Mm-hmm.

That's the first thing I thought
of too, him driving a bus.

I'm like, "How'd he get
killed driving a bus?"

Yeah.

So, and if she hadn't have said
he was shot and killed, I probably

would've thought he was just in
like an accident or something,

like dad's been killed, whatever.

Um, but she said shot and killed, and so
I was like, "What happened on the bus?"

Like I don't understand.

And so when I said, "What?"

She said, "There was a home invasion.

Dad's, dad was shot and killed.

I have to go talk to the police now."

I was like, "Okay."

And then she just hung up.

Was this happening--
What time did it happen?

And like how much time had passed?

So I- A couple hours.

Yeah.

It was a couple hours.

Um, at that point she had, she had
been taken next door to Mary and

Larry's house, and, um- I think the
detectives had already talked to her too.

Well, I think they had
started to talk to her.

Yeah.

Um, but I think at that point they,
that was when they were gonna like

go get her, her things and stuff.

Yeah.

'Cause I, I think until they
started talking to her she

didn't know that he was dead.

Yeah.

Well, no, 'cause she told
me he was shot and killed.

Well, I mean when the- Right.

But, but- â¦ police
started talking to her.

When the police started talking
to her- Oh, yeah â¦ then that's

when she learned that he was dead.

Yeah.

But I think when she was initially taken
from the house she didn't realize that he

was- Yeah â¦ that he was already dead.

Yeah.

So, um, I'm like, "Oh, okay."

And then I can't remember if April called
me Or if I called April, I can't remember.

But I talked to April next, and she also
did not have any details, and she was

like, "I was in the middle of my workout.

I'm, like, I'm gonna get ready and
Jayna and I are gonna drive to Flint."

And I was like, "Okay.

Um, I'm gonna get stuff together here,
and I guess I'm gonna drive to Flint."

Yeah, at this point I was already
up starting to pack stuff.

Well- Like I was starting to put
stuff together- So when- â¦ like,

all right, we're leaving right now.

When I, when I'd hung up the phone with
mom, I turned around and you had like

rolled over and were looking at me in
bed, and I was like, "My dad's dead."

And you shot out of bed,
and you were like, "What?

Okay.

Okay."

Let's go.

And you looked like a cartoon.

Like you, you looked like
frantic, but also like action.

What, what happens?

Yeah.

And I could see you like, "I
need to get this, I need to

get this, I need to getâ¦"

And I was just like, "Okay."

Like, yeah.

Like, let's just wait a second.

I went into like put things together.

Mm-hmm.

Let's go.

Yeah.

I remember I had a hair appointment
scheduled that day, even

though it was like a Tuesday.

Mm-hmm.

Um, I had a hair appointment, or
maybe Chloe had a hair appointment.

It was Chloe.

Chloe had a hair appointment,
so 'cause her hair was dyed

all kinds of crazy colors.

I think it was red or something at
that time 'cause it was, yeah, 'cause

she was only red at that point.

She was red, yeah.

Um, so she needed her hair dyed,
and all I'm thinking is, we're

gonna be at a funeral, there's
gonna be stuff going on, and her

hair is in desperate need of color.

Mm.

Like, we have to keep
her hair appointment.

Mm-hmm.

So I was like, "Ben, we, we can't
leave for a little bit at least."

Um, so I, I called, I talked to April.

Did that whole thing, called you, Kerrye,
told you what was happening, and was just

like, "I don't know what to do," you know?

And then I texted my boss,
Matt, and he was like, "What?"

He said, "Take all the time you need.

We'll figure it out here."

And I was like, "Okay."

And then I sat down on my couch
and I was like, "I could work,

'cause what else am I doing?"

You're in shock that- Yeah.

I-- L- listen, newsflash,
I could not have worked.

Like, I, I could have logged in and I
could have read medical records- Gosh

but the accuracy of my coding
would've been in the toilet.

Yeah.

Like, there's no way I could've done it.

Well, you were in shock thinking.

Just do this.

I just was thinking like,
"What am I doing here?

I, I could've gone on with my day
because I'm just sitting here.

I'm sitting here- You're here in
shock â¦ for the rest of the world

to, like, catch up with, like, I'm
awake and needing to get things done."

So then at, like, I think 7:30, I
texted Elyse, my hairdresser, and,

uh, 'cause I knew that she got up
early and went running and stuff.

So I texted her and I was like, "Hey,
listen, there's, there's been a situation.

Um, my, my dad has been killed.

I know that we have Chloe's
hair appointment today.

Is there any way we could do it earlier
so that we can get on the road?"

And she was like, "What?"

She said, "Yes, just come in."

I was like, "Uh, when?"

And so she told me to come
in at, like, 9:00, I think.

And I found out later that she called
Lorrie Miller, who had an appointment

at 9:00, and basically told Lorrie,
like, "Jill's dad's been killed.

I'm gonna try to do Jill's
hair and Chloe's hair.

Can you come at Chloe's
appointment time instead?"

And of course, Lorrie being Lorrie
was like, "Yes, million percent."

So, um, so we ended up being able to
have fresh, pretty hair when we went.

Um, and I think while we were at
the hair salon, like, I-- we had not

told Chloe or Owen at that point.

Like, they didn't know.

Um, so they just thought
it was, like, a normal day.

You had, Ben had gone to work to tell
everybody at work, like, this is what's

happening, this is what's gonna go.

Yeah, I went and sat down with
them and- Mm-hmm â¦ told them what

was happening and, and they were
like, "Well, why are you here?"

And I'm like, "Well, we're
getting things together.

We're gonna be going, but I'm
gonna be gone for a few days."

Yeah.

And then I think is that when
you first called the Flint PD?

'Cause we were at work.

I, I didn't call Flint PD.

I talked to, um, uh-
Michigan State Police?

Yeah, Sergeant Trooper Miller.

Detective Trooper Miller.

Or Detective Trooper Miller
or whatever his name is.

Yeah.

I talked to Miller, and
that's when I talked to him.

Is his first name Trooper?

No.

He's a detective trooper.

He's a-- Oh, I was like- He's a
state trooper â¦ that was like-

State trooper's a detective.

I, I don't know what to call him.

Naming your baby what they're gonna be.

Yeah.

Dete- de- yeah, he was a detective with
the, the, uh- Michigan State Police

Michigan State Police.

He was- So what was
that conversation like?

Um, I asked him sort of, you know, I,
I gotta I, I, I asked him s- sort of

some of the details that I could get,
and then, uh, he had some questions

for me about my mother-in-law.

Like, is this normal- She,
uh- â¦ reactions and stuff?

Yeah, 'cause she was very stoic,
'cause that's just the way they are.

And he said, uh- At that point he hadn't
talked to April or Jayna yet either

â¦ no, he hadn't talked to April or Jayna.

He talked to me, and he's like, uh-

"Is she normally emotional
or anything like that?"

And I said, "No."

I said, "She's a very, a very s-
stoic, English stiff upper lip."

I said, "If she's looking at you
and she's talking, she's very

matter of fact, that's her."

Yeah.

"That's just the way she's gonna be.

She will not cry or show
emotion in front of anybody.

It's not gonna happen."

Well, 'cause at that point he's
probably trying to figure out- If

she had something to do with it.

If she had something to do with it.

Like, like this, 'cause he, you
know, uh, and this is- Mm-hmm

gonna sound bad, but being from
Flint and working a lot of homicide

stuff in Flint, you end up with a
lot of the screaming, crying family.

Right.

And then this, he's got this lady sitting
in front of him who's very matter of

fact, showing very little emotion.

Right.

And he said, "How was their relationship?"

And I said, I said, "If, if
this is because she's not being

emotional, it's, she is not going
to be emotional in front of you."

Yeah.

It's just not gonna happen.

And she's, you know, her,
her statement has always been

crying is for the bathroom.

Yeah.

You don't show emotion in front of people.

Right.

That's just the way she is.

So that, that's how that conversation
went, and then he sort of explained to

me what had happened and, and what they
knew at that point, and they hadn't

made all the arrests at that point.

They had, uh- No, they, they, they still
hadn't made any arrests at that point.

They hadn't, they, they didn't, they
made, I think they made their first

arrest when we were on our way up.

Yeah.

Um, and then- 'Cause he called you when we
were in the truck â¦ yeah, he called me,

you know, when we were in the truck, so.

Do you wanna tell what happened at this
point or you wanna start from the top?

What, like- As far as,
like, the details of- Yeah.

Mm-hmm â¦ what actually went down?

So you can jump in.

So the interesting part of this, um,
this happened in July, and in June I

graduated from crime scene tech school.

So I became a certified
crime scene technician.

Mm-hmm.

I was literally, like, a month
away from my graduation of that.

I feel like that was
not an accident either.

Correct.

I know.

No.

Um, so I was very keen to get up there.

I wanted to get up there
and get on the scene.

I wanted to see the crime scene.

I wasn't sure if they were gonna let me.

I really wanted to be up there.

Um, so at that time I was able
to walk through the house once we

got up there and get a really, a
really good idea of what happened.

Um-

This is gonna sound a
little arrogant of me.

Um, but the, uh, Flint crime
scene technicians got it wrong.

Yeah.

Yeah, they did.

Um, they were not very good But they
also probably were a little busy.

Yeah.

Um- And they also, to be fair, they had
two crime scenes- Yeah â¦ that they

didn't realize were connected at the time.

Yeah.

Like, there- Oh â¦ there was a
whole, there was a whole thing.

But I can tell you fromâ¦

Do you want me to tell how the scene
went down, or do you wanna do it?

Sure, go ahead.

Okay.

Um, Al was on the s- the couch.

Um, he routinely- Fell asleep on the couch
â¦ would fall asleep watching TV and stay

in the living area, in the downstairs
area, until 1:00, 2:00 in the morning.

And then way later.

Sometimes he, sometimes he would wake up-
At, like, 4:00 â¦ at, like, 4:00 or 5:00-

And go to bed at 4:00 â¦ and go to bed.

Yeah.

So he would routinely spend most of his
nights at, on the couch watching TV.

Um, and so he was on the couch.

Jan was upstairs in, in bed asleep.

Um, and there's five individuals
that came in the house.

Through the front door.

Through the front door,
because it's Flint.

Mm-hmm.

It's summer.

They don't have air conditioning.

Mm.

Right?

It doesn't get hot enough.

So they would leave the, they,
they would put the screen doors on.

Yeah.

Leave the door open with the screen.

The wind would blow through.

That's what cooled the house.

Mm-hmm.

So they came in through the open door,
in the screen door, and immediately

started threatening, um, Al with,
you know, wanting money and things,

and he's sitting on the couch, and
two of them remained downstairs.

Three of them went upstairs.

And, uh, one of them started removing
the TV, which was a very large TV.

It was humongous.

It was his pride.

Like, he was proud of that TV.

It was huge.

But also, like, sidebar, my dad
was super anal retentive about-

Yes â¦ clutter and- Yes â¦ just stuff.

And so my dad had this habit of zip tying
all of his- All the cords â¦ cords.

Yeah.

And when I say zip tying the cords, I
mean, like, a zip tie every two to three

inches on the cords so that they were,
like- Very neat, very neat and tidy

very neat and tidy- Yeah â¦ and put
away so that you couldn't see them.

And so this, this kid picks up this
TV, which is already massive, and

he's trying to haul this TV off,
and now he's got these cords that

are all connected and zip tied.

And so he's, like, he got it, what,
maybe two feet, and then it, like- Yeah

clunked and fell and hit the
th- It was a whole thing.

He didn't make it out with the TV.

It was just hooked up.

No, he did not.

Um- He did not â¦ so when he's
messing with the TV, the three

that are upstairs, one of them, I
can't remember which one it was.

I think it was one, he was the one with
the gun, so it was Jordan Alexander.

Mm-hmm.

I got, I guess it's okay
for me to say his name.

Uh, apparently.

He's in.

People, y'all can look it up.

Uh, the things that I would have to
s- We can reference the case numbers-

Yeah â¦ if you'd like to look 'em up.

The things that I would have to say
about him, I'd have to edit it out.

Mm-hmm.

Um, um, s- uh, came in and,
and, uh, demanded m- m-

money from my mother-in-law.

She was, woke her up.

And when she- Oh, I can imagine
that â¦ didn't immediately

respond, he hit her with a gun.

He pistol-whipped the side of her cheek.

Yeah.

And that's about the time when my
father-in-law- Found an opportunity

when they weren't paying attention to
him to slip into the kitchen They were

concerned with the television They
were concerned with the television

that was- And how to get it out.

Securely strapped- Yeah â¦ we'll say.

And his, uh, his pistol was
in the kitchen, and so he

went and retrieved his pistol.

And what we'd like to refer
to, went Yosemite Sam on them.

Yeah.

Just took peow, peow, peow.

Mm.

Was shooting everywhere.

Um, so he, she- Mom said she
distinctly remembered him yelling,

"You've got a gun, I've got a gun."

And- Yeah â¦ came
barreling up the stairs.

So he goes up, barreling upstairs, shot
one of them point-blank in the stairwell.

Where'd it hit him?

Center of the chest.

I, I don't think that he
hit him in the stairwell.

He shot at them in the stairwell.

Like, 'cause there was a shot that
went through the stairwell, remember?

But he- No, the guy he shot was
in- He shot him in the- The guy

who- â¦ in the purple room.

No, he shot him in the
stairwell and went past him.

How did the blood get on the clothes
in the closet, and that the- Maybe it

was your dad's â¦ the mirror was on?

Maybe it was your dad's blood.

Dad only got shot once, and it was right
in front of Mom and Dad's bedroom door.

I'm trying to remember.

I thought he shot at them
as they ran up the stairs.

He shot at-- He, he went up the stairs
firing shots, so there was some- Yeah

â¦ rounds in the walls going upstairs.

And he shot one of them and
went past him, and that was the

one that was shot in the chest.

And that guy went down the
stairs out the front door.

Got in a car.

Got in the car.

And the guy who was having trouble with
the TV, as soon as the shots started going

off, bailed out and ran out the front
door, and they both jumped in the vehicle.

As, as, uh, as it happened, the
guy who got shot is the one that-

Decided to drive â¦ decided to drive.

Well, because the one who didn't get
shot had just sat down in the passenger

seat waiting for the rest of them.

Yeah, he went out.

He, he was the first one out.

Oh, okay.

Sat in the passenger seat.

He was also one that this was
his- He was the youngest one.

Mm-mm.

Wasn't he?

No, he was the second to youngest.

Second to youngest.

I think, um- Yeah â¦ Joshua
Eubanks was the youngest.

That was Tyler, um, Pagel.

Pagel, yeah.

Pagell.

Pagel, I think.

Pagel.

It's Pagel.

Yeah.

Um, anyway, Tyler went
out and sat in the car.

But both Tyler and Joshua, it was, like,
their first time out doing this at all.

Like, they didn't have
any prior convictions.

Like, they didn't have â¦ They
weren't in trouble- No â¦ before.

That was- So â¦ from what
they figured out was that- He

just didn't know what to do

these guys were out playing basketball,
and he said the three guys said,

"Well, we're gonna hit a lick.

Wanna come with us?"

And they're like, "Sure,"
and they jump in the car.

Yeah.

That was it.

Um, anyway, so he gets shot, and, uh-

As he's coming up the stairs, one of
them was coming out of a room, and

that would be the guy with the gun.

Jordan.

And he fires one shot.

It traveled through, uh, Al's
arm and into his chest cavity,

and that, um, is what killed him.

It hit him straight in the heart.

Yeah.

And once my father-in-law's shot,
you know, once that happened, my

father-in-law put himself in the
doorway of the master bedroom, and they

all three ran into the purple room.

Yeah.

That's what we call it, the purple room.

It's next to, it's on the second
floor next to the master bedroom.

And they all jumped out of
the second story window.

Mm, yeah.

And my father-in-law had struggled with
them in that hallway, and one of the shots

that he had shot went straight through the
floor, and you could see where, I could

tell where he had been shot right there.

There was a high velocity
spatter on the wall, and you

could tell where he was shot.

And so he stood in the doorway
between Jan and those guys until he-

Couldn't stand â¦ until he bled out.

Um, and so he died right
there in that doorway.

Yeah.

Fortunately for us, one of the
guys, um, got kicked by his

compadres The, the other assailant.

Yeah So the first guy goes out the window,
and the second guy goes out the window

and kicks the third guy in the nose.

Oh.

And breaks his nose, so he starts
bleeding everywhere, right?

He jumps out the window, leaves a blood
trail over the fence, down the alley.

They're able to trail him where
they went, where they parked.

Their- Yeah, they- Yeah â¦ so
they f- they, that was easy.

They found them.

They found where they'd stashed their
clo- some clothes and things like that.

Yeah, jacket and bag and stuff.

So they were basically able to
trail 'em by the blood trail 'cause

one of the guys got kicked in the
nose trying to get out the window.

Wow.

He had scared 'em so bad, they
were, they were getting outta

the house any way they could.

Yeah.

Wow.

And I think at one point, one of
'em had tried to hide in the closet.

Yeah.

Um, one of 'em had tried
to hide under the bed.

They couldn't, they couldn't find a place
to hide and all went out the window.

Mm-hmm.

That'll let you how, how much
he was shooting in there.

He prob- uh, j- I can't remember
now how many shots he fired, but he

had been close to emptying his gun.

Yeah.

Um, yeah.

But it, it was th- But- He was
fighting to the end, that's for sure.

While all that was happening, the
two that got in the car- They drove.

Yeah â¦ one, the one who had
been shot, uh, he was shot

through and through, right?

Yeah.

So he had a through and through
chest wound- Yeah â¦ was driving a

vehicle, got like six blocks away,
um- Yeah â¦ probably like half a mile

as the crow flies, um, and got in an
accident, like T-boned another vehicle.

Yeah, 'cause he passed out.

Yeah.

Um, so the, my mom has called the cops.

You know, my husband's been shot.

There's been a home invasion, whatever.

And then, so the cops are on their
way, you know, to my parents' house,

and they come upon this car accident.

And so ha- like s- I guess some of
them, I don't know how many, but

some of them stopped at this accident
to try to render aid 'cause they're

like, "Clearly this is a problem.

This was a serious crash."

And the rest of them continued
on, and they're working this

crash, and they realize that
the driver has a gunshot wound.

And they're like, "What?

How?"

Who shot him, you know what I mean?

So is he unconscious at this point?

Yeah.

So they end up sending him to Hurley
Medical, which is, like, the number

one trauma hospital in the area,
and, like, if you're gonna get shot,

that's exactly where you wanna go.

Yeah.

And so he spent several months in ICU,
and so, like, it, it was a whole thing.

Yeah.

It was a whole thing.

And it wasn't, it wasn't too
long after that and they kind

of sort of put it together.

Yeah.

"Oh, this guy shot a bunch of people."

Mm-hmm.

"This guy's, you know, a few
blocks away, he's been shot."

Yeah.

"Oh, he's one of the guys."

Yeah.

And so they, that's the ones they
started with was Tyler Pagel and-

Zicary Carpenter â¦ Zicary Carpenter.

Yeah.

And then they were managed, and then, then
they tracked down all the rest of them.

Yeah.

They actually ended up finding out
where they'd thrown phones out of

the car and- Mm-hmm â¦ I mean, they,
they did a, the, the Michigan State

Police did a great job investigating.

Yeah, they did a thorough-
Yeah, they did a very good

job â¦ thorough job with that.

Um, yeah.

But it was,

it was easier, I think, for me at that
time because I, when I got there, I

went into- You went into detective
mode â¦ I went into investigator mode.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

So everything on there
I could very, go very-

Compartmentalized, I guess.

It, it-- I went into that scene
as if I was an investigator and

not as if this is a family member-
Yeah â¦ it's my father-in-law.

Yeah.

So I was, I was able to
dissociate from that.

Um, and I don't think anybody else was
able to have that- No â¦ that luxury-

Well, I think- â¦ of being able to
look at it from that angle, but- Yeah.

Yeah.

I, I remember- I remember standing
there looking at these bullet holes-

Mm-hmm â¦ and listening to what they were
telling me and going, "That's not true.

That didn't happen."

Well, it was April, and to be fair,
it was April and Jayna telling you,

and they were- Well, their reports
that they wrote were wrong as well.

Well, I'm not, I'm not
getting into all that.

But- I c- but you know, it's one of, it's
one of those things where I could track

at that time, I remember walking through,
and I could track, like, when he started

shooting- Right â¦ and where he stopped.

But you also, again, to be fair,
you're familiar with my dad and his

mannerisms and everything, and then
also, like- I didn't have to be

you knew that he was left-handed.

They didn't know that at that time.

They didn't know that, yeah.

Um, so there were, there were some
things that, like, I don't even remember.

When did you tell them
that he was left-handed?

Uh, it was a couple of days later, yeah.

Yeah.

And they had like a light bulb moment.

Like, "Oh.

Oh, that makes sense.

Okay, that's why this is here."

And I'm like, "Yeah.

Yeah.

Oh, and by the way, you missed
one of the bullets downstairs."

Yeah.

That'sâ¦

They were trying to explain it
away, and like, it's pretty easy.

You got a hole you didn't account for,
and that bullet is the one that went

through that hole you didn't account for.

Anyway, so- your sisters- Oh, okay
â¦ had kind of given a wrong report.

So my sisters had regurgitated
what had been told to them.

Yeah, and it, it, it was- As best
they could remember â¦ yeah.

And, like, they had gone upstairs and
looked at the scene and dealt with blood

spatter and just all, all of the stuff.

And, um, when we got there later,
Ben was like, "Girl, you're

not going anywhere, to me."

Mm-hmm.

He was like, "No, no, you stay here."

I just told her that it's- And then, I
mean, they had cleared the scene at that

point â¦ I'm like, "There's no reason
for you to see anything that's up there."

Right.

But yeah.

You just don't need to.

And so Ben went up there, got his
bearings on what actually had happened.

I can tell you, he, he, he made
it to the top of the stairs.

Like in front of the bathroom?

Someone came out of the green room.

That was Jordan Alexander.

And he fired a shot at him.

Mm-hmm.

And then struggled with him in the
hallway, fired a shot through the floor.

Yeah.

And they went into the purple
room, and he fired a shot in there,

and that is when he was shot.

Yeah.

And there was a bullet that
they had missed that was in

that closet in the purple room.

Yeah, that the cleaning crew found.

The cleaning crew ended up finding.

So there were two bullets
that they missed then.

And then they missed one downstairs.

The fire, the shot that he fired through
the floor, they never even looked for

That, that one ended up being
recovered out in the yard because- Yeah

yeah.

We didn't know about that until trial.

Yeah.

It was underneath the- We'll
get to that â¦ the ch- chair.

But I've seen bullets do some
crazy things when they go through

walls or ricochet off things.

Um, worked a lot of crime scenes,
and bullets never go where

you think they're gonna go.

Yeah.

So you have to be very thorough
about where you look, and I think

they were probably just rushed and
then that one wasn't important.

Yeah.

Um, they knew who fired it.

Yeah.

Um, they had other rounds.

So I, I think it probably wasn't
high on their priority list.

I've worked with, also worked with
some unnamed agencies that aren't that

interested in finding all the evidence.

Right.

Um, fortunately for me, most of my
career I worked with guys that are really

committed to it, but, uh, there are
some out there that are not so- Yeah.

so thorough.

But- Um, yeah.

And I did spend a little more
time probably looking at it than

Than they were allowed.

Yeah.

Uh, it was also early in the morning, you
know, and they were tracking down people.

Uh, I can't remember,
was your mother still at

The neighbor's house when we got there?

Um, no.

At that point- I can't
remember where she was at

at that point, um, April and Jayna
had taken her to Jayna's house

But she was back, 'cause she
was in the house with us.

Right, but it w- it had been
like hours and hours and hours.

That's true.

Yeah, that's true.

So April and Jayna had us call
them when we hit Lansing, I think.

Yeah, that's true.

What time was that?

We- When we got up the next- Let me
see â¦ after we got the hair appointment,

I think we hopped in the car and drove,
like- Yeah, and you didn't drive slow.

No.

Like, you had your get out of jail free
card, and you were like, "I'm using it."

So we- Yeah, we got there quick â¦ made
it to Michigan in record time.

I think there's only two other
times that I've dri- driven

that trip faster than that.

I don't think we should discuss those.

We'll leave those alone.

So what, what, how long does it
take you normally to get there?

It normally should take about 15 hours.

Yeah.

Ben and I, we travel purposefully, so
we, we definitely, we do not lollygag.

We do bathroom breaks when we stop
to, to get gas, and that is it.

We, we, umâ¦

What did it feel like, a long time?

We pack snacks and drinks.

Yeah, and yeah.

We do not stop for restaurants.

We don't stop for restaurants.

We don't- Yeah.

We eat in the car.

We psht- Yes â¦ all the way there.

Um, it did feel, simultaneously it felt
like a long time, like we would never

get there, and then at the same time, I
feel like I looked around and we were in

the driveway, and then I looked around
again and we were at my parents' house.

So how long?

10 hours?

It, it, I think you might have
gotten there in just under 12.

It was, it was around 12 hours, yeah.

Well, and also because we do have
the, like, they're an hour ahead, so-

Did y'all go straight to their house?

Yes.

So this is like 10:00, 11:00 at night?

I, I mean, it wasâ¦

It must have been.

Because if, you know, her hair
appointment took an hour or so.

No, we, we must have just
gone straight to Jayna's.

I think we just went
straight to Jayna's house.

I think so, yeah.

And then kind of regrouped with them.

'Cause it was, it was in the
morning what time it was.

Spent the night.

Did we spend the night in a hotel?

I think so, yeah.

Or did we sleep at- I think we had a hotel

a hotel.

I think we did have a hotel.

Yeah, we had a hotel.

Um- And we went up there the next morning.

And we went to Flint the next morning.

Yeah.

Yeah, I think we got a hotel
'cause we were gonna have to

be there until the funeral.

Yeah, that's right.

Yeah.

Man Interesting Yeah It was
interesting to say the least.

That was a, uh, a blur of a trip And you,
you met with the police at that point.

Like at some- Yeah â¦ point during
the trip, like you went to the

police station and met with them.

Yeah.

I went to the Flint Police Department
'cause that's where the, uh, the,

uh, office is for the- For Detective
Trooper Miller â¦ state police were.

Mm-hmm.

Um- Um, yeah.

Went and had a chat with him about,
and, and that was when he was able to

explain to me that they had already
caught some of them and, and there

was- Right â¦ I think there were
still one at large at that point.

Well, I think they were, that was when
they were still trying to get Dre Jones.

Yep.

And Dre Jones is actually the one, like
once they got him, he had a plea deal.

Like he decided to plead out.

Yeah, he's the one that, that sort
of turned on all the other ones.

Yep.

He decided to- He did the right thing.

Yeah.

But he's also not one of the ones that
was armed and one of the worst ones.

Well, he had the biggest,
um, rap sheet, I think.

I thought it, I thought
Jordan Alexander did.

He might have.

Jordan might have, but I know
Dre had a- There was a couple of

them that wanted to be gangsters.

They were the, just the
typical- Oh my gosh.

Yeah â¦ you know, disrespecting
everybody- And was- â¦ else's property.

Uh, uh, I want that, it's mine.

I'm gonna shoot and I'm gonna
wave a gun at people- Yeah

whoever, whatever.

Yeah.

And then there were three others that,
three of the group that weren't- No, two.

There were only five total.

Right

were the bad ones.

Yeah.

And the other two were just-
But the, the other two, the

other two were not nearly asâ¦

thought Tyler Pagel was a, he- No,
Tyler Pagel- He wasn't â¦ he was,

it was like one of his- That's
right â¦ it was like his first night

out, him and- And he looked like a kid.

Like he looked really young.

Those were the two 17-year-olds.

Yeah.

So- You could tell they were not adults.

Like they- Mm-hmm â¦ looked, they,
and behaved like they were very young.

Yes.

They- Yeah â¦ very much,
they looked like children.

Mm-hmm.

Which is disconcerting.

I, I mean, that's-- We're getting
ahead of ourselves 'cause, I mean,

I didn't see them at all until 2019.

So two more years.

It took two years, yeah.

Yeah.

And so we went through theâ¦

Well, I'll let you talk about
all the rest of the stuff, but.

Yeah.

That's heavy right there, though.

Yeah.

Um, yeah.

The funeral was weird.

It was.

How-- W- From the, from that day,
y'all get there, when was the funeral?

How many more days?

The funeral was, I think, four days later.

Yeah, it was very long, yeah.

Yeah.

Um, which is, uh, kind of a blessing
that they were able to get all

of that done in like- Well, it's
Flint, so there's used to happen.

Um, but so we-- My dad played, umâ¦

He was part of a Scottish
pipe band, like aâ¦

So he played the drums for the
Scottish pipe band, and I don't think

that he-- I think he had quit, so
he hadn't played for a little bit.

And- But he was like recently quit, like.

Yeah, I think it was, it was a
couple months- Yeah â¦ at least,

um- So that they come play?

Yes.

Th- One of them did.

Oh.

Yeah.

Came and, and played the bagpipes for Dad.

Yeah.

I bet that was unique.

I mean, are you- It- Listen,
I've had enough of bagpipes.

Yeah.

Just because it is very, uhâ¦

It's like Taps.

Bagpipes for law enforcement and firemen,
it's, it's like Taps is for the military.

Mm-hmm.

It's veryâ¦

It's, it's heart-wrenching,
and it's poignant, and- Mm-hmm.

That's hard â¦ it's, it's touching,
but it's also something that's like

I, so I follow, um, Piper Allie on
Instagram, and she's a, she's a bagpiper.

Mm.

And she does, like, rock versions.

Like, she does bagpipe
versions of, like, rock songs.

And I have, I have really realized
just recently, like, 'cause I was

thinking, "When did I start following
this girl, and how did I find her?"

And I think I did it subconsciously to
associate bagpipes with something else.

Mm-hmm.

Because it, it is so easy.

Because 2017, like, we jokingly kind
of refer to it as the summer of death

because we had three police officers
killed in the state of Arkansas

on duty, and my dad was killed.

And so there were a lot of bagpipes
played and we just were, like, very, very

much, "I don't wanna hear this again."

Mm-hmm.

"I don't wanna do it."

Yeah.

Soâ¦

So who, did you, any of y- you,
your sister spoke at- April spoke.

She did.

She gave the, she gave the eulogy.

And, um, the funeral- Yes.

Are you about to talk about the mafia?

I'm trying to talk about the mafia.

I forgot about the mafia.

I, I thought we were getting
into your Aunt Kathy.

We'll leave that alone.

Oh, we'll leave Aunt Kathy alone.

Um, so my mom- This is so strange.

This isâ¦

I've never seen this before,
and I've never seen this since.

Um, my mom at the funeral, you
know, my mom has Parkinson's, and

she had been beaten up, you know?

She- Mm-hmm.

I mean, she could y- And
her face looked broken.

It looked like, yeah, you could tell
it- I mean, she, she definitely, I

think, did have an orbital fracture.

Yeah.

I don't know if they technically diagnosed
her with that or not, but I think she did.

Yeah.

Um- She still has the indention
from where it broke her- Yeah.

Yeah, it- â¦ cheek.

Yeah, it definitely, um, affected
her fat pad there, for sure.

Um, but, so, um- My, uh, my mom is
sitting there and, you know, they'reâ¦

We'd finished the funeral and
everybody's, you know- Yeah â¦ walking

past the casket and everything.

But as they would walk past the casket,
they would kind of turn, and then

they would walk over to my mom, and
these people would, like, kneel down

in front of my mom and, like, grab
her hand and like, "We're so sorry.

If there's anything we can do for you."

Like, it was- You could almost hear,
like, "We're so sorry for your loss."

Yeah, it, it very much- Yeah
â¦ looked like it was cinematic-

It's like â¦ in, like, what a
mobster's funeral would be like.

Oh.

And so April and Jayna and I were
like- They were in, they were in

like, they were in like s- they were
in like s- they were straight up.

I'm like, "Was he
associated with the mob?"

Like, we really- â¦ all, all
four of us, like- Like, this isâ¦

'Cause they were straight up mobsters.

Like, the way they behaved,
it was- They were they.

We-- I don't know.

They were, like, people Dad worked with.

They were from the bus company.

And the, and the bus company, and then
also his regulars from being on the bus.

Like, they would ride the bus, and
they knew my dad, and they were like,

"Oh, no, this isn't gonna happen."

And so there were so
many more people there.

There were tons of people there
that we had no idea who they were.

Yeah.

But the ones that looked like
they were part of the mob were,

like, from the bus company.

Yeah.

And it's like, hmm, okay.

It was crazy.

Like, I guess you're connected, huh?

But it was really weird, yeah.

But then also when you think about
it, I didn't put this together

until just this moment, Ben.

Yeah, probably.

My dad was in the union.

Oh, they're, they're probably-
Like, there's Teamsters.

Yeah.

He probably, yeah.

It might've been the mob.

It might've been the mob, yeah.

I don't know.

It might've been, you're right.

I, I didn't- But the way they behaved,
it was very much like, like Italian mob.

Mm-hmm.

Like- It was crazy.

I mean, again, I've never seen
it before, never seen it since.

But they were so respectful.

Yeah.

And both the Maebell tiger are like, you
know, "Whatever you need, we're gonna

take care of you," and stuff like that.

It's just like- Yeah.

Did they?

I'm assuming so.

I mean, uh, uh, I don't, I don't know.

I don't know.

I mean, she lives with me.

Yeah.

I mean- So I'm gonna contact them
now- Yeah â¦ and be like, "Hey."

"Hey there."

"Remember what you said?"

"Remember what you said to my mama?"

Mm-hmm.

Um, no, but the funeral was tricky.

Yeah.

Um, and you know, my relationship
with April and Jayna was

strained at that point.

Um, we, we didn't get along at all.

Didn't talk barely at all.

Mm-mm.

Hardly at all.

It definitely brought, brought y'all
closer together I mean, it has.

It has.

And then the care of your mom.

Yeah.

But the, that was, that was a trip.

So the whole process of the,
the court case took two years.

Took two years to remove
the hearings and everything.

And I believe y'all going
out there- It was crazy.

And how long did y'all stay the first
time, like- We stayed two weeks.

Yeah, we only- It was pretty long.

Um- That's, two weeks is
about all I could take off.

But- I think I was running out of
time â¦ I think it, I think it

was 22 days that the trial lasted.

Yeah.

We were there for- And then it's the
first time you've laid eyes on the five.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

But one of them is- I mean, I had seen
the pictures â¦ was the one who told.

Yeah, but we didn't, he
wasn't part of the trial.

Yeah, that's what I mean.

Like- Um- â¦ there's five, but one
of them- Yeah â¦ was, was the one

who was kind of the person who- Yeah

told on them.

Mm-hmm.

So he wasn't part of the trial.

He wasn't on trial.

So there were four, four of the kids were
on trial, and the fifth one testified

against them, but Ben and I had already
gone home when Dre testified, so we

did not get to see his testimony.

Just got to see him

I forgot about the, the pinky man.

One of the kids- Who was the pinky man?

It was- Clarence, he was oneâ¦

It was one of their witnesses- It was
one of the friends, yeah â¦ friend

witnesses, whatever, and, and when he
would point at the defendants across

the room, he would just, he would point
with- Like, with his- With his pinky

his pinky out and like- Like his
pinky up pointing â¦ up high.

That's weird.

It was so weird.

Yeah, that was the same one that
started to eat Cheetos on the stand.

Yeah, he pulled out a bag of Cheetos
and started eating them on the stand.

Does he have a sugar problem or?

Uh, no.

He just had a- I think he- He just
had a, I guess a- A disdain for-

disdain for whatever they were
asking him â¦ for the court.

And, um- He did not, he did
not respect any of them.

Didn't care.

Is- He just did not care â¦ is
he the one that we called

Sideshow Bob because of his hair?

Yes, he had his weird hair.

Yeah.

Pulled out his chest- The
interesting â¦ to eat them on the stand.

Yeah.

Wow.

It was so funny.

And, and the defense attorneys
would ask him questions, and he

would answer them like, "You moron."

Yeah, it- Like, "Why am I having
to answer your questions?"

Yeah, it was- You know?

It was really funny.

It was great.

Um- He was a good witness,
but it's just- So yeah.

He wasn't a- You could, you could
clearly see that he did not have any

respect for those attorneys at all.

And the- They did not matter to him
one bit â¦ the defense attorneys or

the prosecuting attorneys- Any of them.

They did not matter to him â¦ he was
mad as crap that he had to even be there.

Yeah, they forced him to be there,
and he wasn't happy about it.

It, he was the one that they,
like, they had to go and apprehend.

They had to like- Yeah, he
was on an ankle monitor-

Yeah â¦ because he had this problem.

Yeah, and he was not happy about it.

Yeah.

He wasn't.

So y'all have gone through, like,
it's two years away, you know, and I

know grief never really goes away, but
they s- You know, I've heard people

say approximately two years are,
the first two years are the hardest.

So you're- Yeah â¦ having
to reopen all of this.

I feel like, I feel like it was stunted.

I don't think that we could really grieve.

Because it wasn't closed.

Yeah.

Well, because every time
we turned around, there was

something else that would be said.

Something else that was said, yeah.

And honestly, I mean,
that's still happening.

I got a text message while we were
recording about, from, like today.

Mm-hmm.

From the Crime Victim Ad- They're
still doing- â¦ Advocate about

stuff â¦ it's the State of Michigan,
so they're gonna keep doing appeals

and changing laws and changing things
over and over again because the State

of Michigan doesn't care about victims.

They care about criminals.

Mm-hmm.

They are more interested in a
criminal's rights than they are

the citizen's rights at all.

Mm.

It is a horrible, horrible
place to try to seek justice.

Wow.

And I'll say that right up front.

Yeah.

Well- Their judicial system is awful.

Their judges are awful.

Their politicians are awful.

Their legislators should
be ashamed of themselves.

Mm.

To be fair, I think Judge Kelly
has tried to go out of her way to

make sure that- Yeah, if she had
screwed up in the beginning, we

wouldn't be having this problem.

I'm just saying.

It was- She made some very
liberal-minded, very stupid decisions-

It was, I don't think that it was-

that are costing them now â¦ I don't
think it was liberal-minded or stupid.

I think it was ignorance 'cause
this was her very first case.

Okay, stupidity or ignorance,
either way, it's the same, but-

It was her very first case.

I'm just saying.

I think the State of Michigan shouldn't-
If you wanna prosecute something,

the State of Michigan's pretty tough

I think the State of Michigan
probably shouldn't have given a

case with four defendants and a
homicide to a first-time judge.

Yes.

Yeah.

They shouldn't have.

Well, but- So you had to, like, see
these people for the first time.

What is your initial thoughts like?

They look like babies.

They look like- That's really what-
They were all very young, yeah

you thought.

Yeah.

They were very young.

They walked in and I thought,
"Oh, they're just babies."

Yeah.

They're just children.

It wasn't quite as shocking for me
because, you know- You were dealing

with- â¦ I'm a criminal investigator.

Yeah.

These are the guys that
I deal with all the time.

They, when they walked
in, I'm like, "Yeah.

About right."

So did you- They're the ones, they're
the ones that I've been arresting.

It's about the same.

It's the same mentality.

Yeah.

You know?

So it wasn't as hard for me.

But you had a har- But- Like, it was hard.

I had a hard time.

Um, I especially had a hard time
with, um, with the two youngest.

Be- largely because they
looked the youngest.

They looked like literal children.

At that point, they were, like, 19
years old, but they looked like babies.

And then also because they had
not been in trouble before.

Like, they made, they made one decision,
and it tore apart their whole life.

And they came into it like this is-
Yeah, and you could clearly tell- Yeah

that they didn't expect they were
gonna go there and, and, and- Yeah.

And shoot anybody â¦ Jordan
was gonna shoot somebody.

Yeah.

Like, they didn't know
anybody was gonna get shot.

I don't, I hazard to think, like, I don't
know if they knew that anyone was armed.

Yeah.

So I truly believe that they
were, they were there to rob.

They weren't there to, for anything else.

But- I don't even know if they were there
to rob â¦ you know, that's the law says

when you're, you- I feel, no, listen.

They were carrying a TV.

I feel like they were- I mean, come on.

I mean, I'm saying I feel like, well,
this was, this was the last spot they hit.

They had hit several before then.

Several.

So I think that they had gotten
braver, but I think when they left, I

don't know that they intend- No, no.

Are you okay?

When you, when you say the phrase
to someone like that, "We're

gonna go hit a lick," that means
we're gonna go steal some stuff.

I mean, I know.

That's what they told them.

All right.

Okay.

"We're gonna go hit a lick."

All right, let's go steal.

I feel like you've gone into it kind of,
I mean, from the very beginning, 'cause I

remember, you know, us talking about it.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

You weren't â¦ I mean, I'm
not saying you weren't mad.

I just think that you were very,
it was just a good thing, quick

to forgive because they are kids.

And I know that's a hard process.

I'm not trying to say- Yeah â¦ "Oh,
that was easy for you."

But you don't h- you, you know.

Yeah.

Just talk about, like, your experience
is gonna be different than your sisters.

Yeah.

But so just, I mean, you told me
some things that happened in the

courtroom even, and then- Oh,
man â¦ the mom and all that stuff.

Yeah.

Oh, that broke my heart.

Like, um, so- Is it Joshua Eubanks?

Josh Eubanks?

Is he- Or Jeremiah Eubanks Josh.

That's the youngest.

Josh Eubanks.

And he was the youngest.

Um, his mom actually ended up
testifying for the prosecution.

Mm.

And- I can't even imagine that.

Yeah.

Same.

And, like, so I'm sitting here, I'm
watching this woman testify that, yes,

her son did go with these, these boys.

Yes, she knewâ¦

Like, she had told him, like,
"This is not a good idea.

Don't do this."

Um, and then they went and did
this, and she's like, "Yeah, I, I

know that they were all together.

I know that this was what was happening."

Um, and then after her testimony,
like, she sat in the courtroom,

but she sat, like, it'sâ¦

I don't know how many people have hung
out in courtrooms, but it ends up being

very, like, almost like wedding-esque.

Like, there's a bride groom-
The sheer side â¦ on this side.

Yeah.

You know, a groom side.

Your side, our side.

And so there's a prosecutor side and a
defense side- Mm-hmm â¦ of the gallery.

And she ended up sitting on the
prosecution side of the gallery.

Like, she didn't even sit,
like, behind her son or, like,

over with the parents- Mm-hmm

of the other chil- Like, she,
she didn't, she didn't do that.

She sat over there with our side.

And at one point, my mom has,
like, a crazy sweet tooth, and so

we would pack her some snacks that
she could take into court, 'cause

we were there all day, every day.

And so my mom, her, at that time, her
candy of choice was Tootsie Rolls.

And so my mom had this little baggie
of Tootsie Rolls, and she would,

like, dig out a Tootsie Roll, and
then she would, like, offer the

baggie to all of the rest of us.

And then I remember my mom turning
around and offering the baggie

of Tootsie Rolls to this woman.

And w- it's, it's such a small
thing, but it was like, it, it

just spoke volumes about my mom
and, like, this poor woman- Mm-hmm

you know?

Well, yeah, having to
testify against her son.

Has to testify against her son,
sit here and, and watch them

try to put her son in prison.

Mm-hmm.

And my mom could have, could have
been bitter about it, could have

been hateful about, you know-
Mm-hmm â¦ that lady, and she wasn't.

And- Yeah I don't think she- And I
thought there was an incident- Yeah

like when y'all were in the bathroom too.

Oh, that was, yeah, that
was with, um, Tyler Pagel's

sister- Oh, yes â¦ in April.

Okay.

I didn't think it was the mom.

And, uh, Tyler Pagel's sister went
to the bathroom and April went to the

bathroom, and April is she's short,
she's petite, but girl's ripped.

Like she's strong, and
she was strong then.

Um, but she doesn't
look like it, you know?

And she's strong, but I don't
know how scrappy she is.

You know what I mean?

Um, she'd probably be like,
"I'll show you how scrappy I am."

Um, but when she was in the bathroom,
Tyler Pagel's sister came in

and April was washing her hands,
and the sister confronted April.

And April thought, "Oh, no," like this
is, this is how things are gonnaâ¦

Like, "Oh no, here we go."

And the sister basically
was like, "Listen-" We don't

put up with this nonsense.

We, you know, we're not
okay with what he did.

We're sorry, you know, we, we
know that we can't bring your

dad back, whatever, blah, blah.

But like, please just
know we're not about this.

He knows better.

He should not have done this.

And so April was like, "Thank you."

Came back into the court and was
like, "You're not gonna believe this."

But there was some
comedy in that courtroom.

There was- Some â¦ there was some comedy.

I'll never, ever f- uh, like we--
It was an interesting dynamic to

observe because all of, all of the
attorneys got along, so it- Save one.

Well, yeah, marble mouth.

Um, I don't even remember
that dude's name.

RIP.

He did, he did pass away.

His name is dead, what his name is.

Man, he did pass away.

But he was Zicary Carpenter's
attorney and also uncle.

Yeah.

So he was Zicary Carpenter's uncle, and
he- A fairly useless individual â¦ he,

um, he, he had a different approach to the
situation than the other three attorneys.

The truth was not in him.

I just don't, what did
they even try to, to say?

Like, um- Um- "They went crazy."

Like, what?

No, they tried to say the tr- Well,
marble mouth had a whole different thing.

Yeah.

He- Tried to claim it wasn't- He's
the one that asked- â¦ it never even

happened â¦ Well, he's the one that asked
my mom, um, how, how she knew that my dad

did not invite these boys into the house.

What?

Ugh.

Right.

And do you remember that?

Yeah.

Um, because if he invited them in, then
that takes away the home invasion aspect.

Like, so that, that goes out the window.

He tried to say that the, that the
kid that got shot was just outside

on the sidewalk hanging around, and
a bullet went through the wall- And

a bullet went through the wall and-

somehow struck him.

He wasn't in that house.

Oh my goodness.

I mean, he'd never be in that house.

It's too weird.

But what did the other
defense attorneys try to say?

The, I mean, to their, to their
credit, they, they really didn't spend

a lot of time trying to argue, um-

That it hapâ¦

It, it was more like Which, which
charges is my client responsible for?

Yeah.

As opposed to- They're all
trying to minimize the amount

of culpability their client had.

Correct.

So they, I mean, they have
to defend them, I know.

Right.

Yeah.

Uh, they didn't-- weren't trying
to say, "Well, this never happened.

This wasn't-" You couldn't.

No.

Yeah.

No.

Well, that- They had DNA.

I mean, you couldn't.

Yeah.

You can't argue DNA.

Yeah.

Um, there was one testimony where they had
some trace evidence, um, from the window.

Yeah.

Um, where there was a piece of caulking,
like, strip that had come off the window

frame and was in one of the bags- Yeah

um, that they had gone-
Mm-hmm â¦ out the window with.

And my, my dad was a fan of
light-colored walls and colorful trim.

Like, so the purple room had a very,
very, very pale, almost white, purple

wall, and then, like, eggplant purple
trim around the windows and doors.

And eggplant purple carpeting, which
is why we called it the purple room.

And, um, the green room was the
same except green, and my parents'

bedroom was the same except burgundy.

It was a trip.

Um, it was unique, but it
wasn't always a purple room.

Before that, it was, like, blue and so-
So, but, like, because it was colorful

trim, you could see the layers of the
various colors in, in this caulking that

had broken off, and so you could match
it directly with the window in the room.

Like, it's not like it was white on
white on white, and then- â¦ you

had a white on white on white.

Like, it could be anybody.

And then there's the reason.

Yeah.

So, but the, the trace evidence guy,
when he was testifying, was testifying

to this fact, like, to all the colors
in the caulk and all the things.

And the one defense attorney
was like, "What is caulk?"

And the guy was just like, "What?"

And so he had to, like, give a scientific
expe- explanation of what caulking is.

And he's like, "It's a sealant
that typically goes aroundâ¦"

Yeah.

Why, why did he ask that?

Just, I don't know.

Maybe he really didn't know.

Maybe not.

Yeah.

But it sure got brought up the nextâ¦

So we were leaving the courtroom
with the trace evidence guy.

Like, we were all- Yeah â¦ leaving
the courthouse together, and we got

in the, in the elevator, and the
guy just kind of looked over at Ben,

and he said, " like, , "I came from
Grand Rapids, and on my review, on my

way here, I did not think I was gonna
have to explain what caulking is."

And we just died laughing.

So we get to court the next day, and
b- where this particular attorney sits-

is a big old container of caulking.

Uh- Well, the other attorneys
had brought it for him, yeah.

Yeah, the other attorneys
are like, "Here you go.

Here's some caulking for you."

They're probably like, "Okay."

It was hilarious.

So it was, it was interesting to
see the, like, the camaraderie

between these attorneys.

That they're all- But they're also
all, like, going against each other.

Well, they're not on the same team
because they all have different attorneys.

Right.

And then you have the
prosecution and- Exactly.

It was- And one of the defense
attorneys grew up in the neighborhood.

Yeah.

That, that was the one that my
mom offered wild yam root to.

Yeah.

'Cause he had bad back.

And so she was like, "What
you need is wild yam."

And he was like, "Oh, okay."

She's like, "Take it from me.

I, I know."

I mean, I think God probably provided
those moments so that- Oh â¦ it wasn't

just excruciating the whole time.

There, there were definite moments,
and then there was, um, the, likeâ¦

From what I understand, and I could
be fact-checked on this, but at this

point, from the way I interpret,
like, what happens if you can't

afford your own defense attorney,
the way that Michigan provided the

defense attorneys is, like, a lotto.

Like, all of the- Okay â¦ defense
attorneys go into, like-

Just kinda draw â¦ a pool.

Well, it's, it's part of the, um-
And they're assigned whatever.

Yeah.

It, it's part of the public
defender's ju- what is it?

Uh, what's the, public defender program?

Like, they don't have a public
defender's office- No, no, they have a-

where everyone is a public defender.

It's, like, you have to spend
so many hours or so many

cases as a public defender.

Yeah.

And so- So your name sort of
goes in this pool, and you gotta

spend a certain amount of time.

And you get assigned.

Oh, okay.

And you get assigned a person,
and you gotta deal with that case.

So Jordan Alexander got a public defender,
but the public defender he ended up with

was, like, a flashy defense attorney.

Like, he was, like, a really good one.

Yeah.

And, um, but you could just tell he
was just irritated at having to do it.

He was just like- Yeah â¦ "Ugh,
this is the worst."

And he seemed way more comfortable in
a homicide- Yes, than the other ones

than the rest of them.

Mm-hmm.

Like, you could tell
he's done this before.

Mm-hmm.

You know?

And the other guys are like, "Eh,
yeah, I'm not sure, uh, how well

they know what they're doing."

At one point, they were discussing
the, a photograph of some bullets.

One unfired round, yeah.

And, um, it, it was, like,
several unfired rounds.

Yeah.

And they were, the other three attorneys
were commenting about how these could

not possibly be the same caliber bullet.

Look at how-

different they look, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah Well, it's 'cause one of

them was setting up, like on the back
so you could see the, the actual bullet-

Yeah â¦ part of it and not the casing.

Right.

Yeah.

And so this guy, um, the flashy
defense attorney casually just, I

mean, like- And he'd been watching them
discuss this image- On view about this

for a while.

Yeah.

It was probably a good
three minutes at least.

They had just discussed
it for a little bit.

Just- And he's just- Over and over,
and he's- He's just sort of like

You know?

Yeah.

And he gets up and he strolls
over to 'em, sort of slowly.

He goes- Just as casually as can be.

Yeah.

And he goes, "Gentlemen,
that's the pointy end."

And he just turns around
and goes back and sits down.

Right back to his seat.

It was hilarious.

And you could see them go, "Oh."

Yeah.

And they were like, "Okay.

We'll admit this evident, you
know, this into evidence."

But it just- It was just- â¦ his
annoyance at the fact that they took

that much time, he's just like, "Ugh."

And you know, 'cause, like,
we could see the photograph

'cause it was up on a screen.

Yeah.

And they had the actual photograph
and are all, like, pouring

over it, like, looking at it.

And you know that he's looking
at the screen going, "I don't

understand what their problem is."

Until he finally was just like,
"Ugh, I can't take it anymore.

Like, let's just do this."

But- Yeah.

But it was, it, it was difficult in that,
um, like I said, this was Judge Kelly's

first trial- Yeah â¦ ever as a judge.

And- That was part of the delay, too, is
that, like, the old judge retired and they

had to get a new judge, and she had to
go to all her cla- all that stuff- Yeah

before she could be, you know, homo-
Mm-hmm â¦ over a homicide trial.

So that took a good, what,
six months, seven months?

I think so, butâ¦

So it should've been earlier than it was.

I was gonna say- Yeah â¦ 'cause
normally it wouldn't be this long, right?

But there were five other- No,
they waived speedy trial, so

it takes longer than they want.

Yeah.

Oh.

Um, there were five other
judges in the Seventh Circuit.

Yeah.

So we were really confused as
to why they didn't just assign

it to a more experienced judge.

Yeah.

But yeah, they didn't.

So that was a little frustrating having
to be the, uh- Well, and you're not

there, so you- Yeah â¦ it's hard
for you a lot, I, I would imagine,

but you're still being contacted.

Mm-hmm.

So what has happened,
you know, this is 2019.

Yeah.

I get- They were convicted.

Well, Jordan Alexander was
convicted of the homicide.

Mm-hmm.

Um, the other three, four, well,
three 'cause I don't remember.

Did Dre plead to that
or did they waive that?

Um, I can't, I think he plead to
the- I don't- â¦ the home invasion

stuff He plead to the home invasion.

Dre pl- Dre made a plea deal
and he was, um- He got 29

years â¦ he was sentenced to 27.

27 years.

And, um, they, the rest of
them, um, did not getâ¦

They were acquitted of
the homicide charge.

Um- Three of them were.

Right.

Jordan Alexander was the
only one convicted of that.

Yeah.

And then, um, they were all found guilty
of the home invasion and conspiracy to

commit home invasion and, like, something
with a firearm and, like, it was two

of them, obviously, um, Tyler Pagel and

Joshua Eubanks.

I don't know why I wanna
keep calling him Jeremiah.

Don't know.

Anyway, doesn't matter.

Um, Eubanks and Pagel did not have firearm
charges 'cause they didn't have firearms.

But- Yeah â¦ I don't know why Zicary
Carpenter, did he have a firearm charge?

Or n- I, it doesn't matter.

Doesn't matter.

I think there was a firearm
enhancement on all of them

Okay

that's what ended up
giving them the extra year.

They got an extra five, I think, all of
them on top of the original sentence.

Okay.

I don't know.

But, uh, yeah.

Anyway, it is what it is.

I don't even remember.

Um, but because of Michigan doing
its thing, they are, um, they're

re-sentencing several of them now.

Every time our legislation changes
where they change the, um, sentencing

legislation, like the sentencing- Yeah
â¦ guidelines, they go back, appeal, and try

to re-sentence, which is ludicrous to me.

Mm-hmm.

Um- That you would go back and do that,
but because usually it's everything

that happens from there forward.

Yeah.

Um- That is.

Now, I think- And so far, most of
them that have been re-sentenced

have gotten the exact same sentence.

Correct.

Like, like, like we
gotta re-sentence them.

She's like, "Okay.

Well, here you go."

From- Same thing.

Same thing.

From what I understand, um, the,
like there's one that's, I guess,

gonna be re-sentenced Monday.

Um, I'm not really sure what that's
about, um, 'cause that one is Tyler Pagel.

So I don't know- Yeah â¦ which
part of it is being re-sentenced.

But Jordan Alexander was supposed to
be re-sentenced on Monday as well.

I guess they're gonna reschedule that one.

But when I talked to the crime victims
advocate lady, um, earlier this week

about Jordan Alexander, she explained
that essentially the state of Michigan has

made it extremely difficult to sentence
anyone to life in prison without parole,

which is what he was sentenced to.

Mm-hmm.

Because he was the one that was, um,
convicted of the actual homicide.

So she said that because they've
made it so difficult, they are not,

like the state is not even going
to ask for that at this point.

Mm-hmm.

Like in the re-sentencing, they're
just gonna ask for the maximum, um,

available for whatever the charge
is, which she told me the minimum

would be 40, maximum would be 60.

Which I'm like, okay.

Yeah.

So how do you feel about
the, them, the group of them?

I, I kinda feel sad for them.

I feel-

It's just such a

It's a shame.

It's just such a shame that
they were so young and just

threw away their whole life.

Just threw it away, you know?

Mm-hmm.

I would love to believe that, um, they
were young enough that having spent some

time with consequences, that should they
be released, they would be productive

members of society, that they would learn
their lesson, they would make changes,

and they would go about their business.

Um, I mean, obviously I don't, I
don't know that, but that's what

I would like to believe, you know?

Well, they're gonna be old, older
men- Exactly â¦ when they get out.

And there, there's a part
of me that feels like

It's almost harder.

It's almost setting up someone for

more trouble when you spend that
long in prison and then you get

released and the whole world has
changed and you aren't equipped

at all with how to deal with that?

And do we have supports in place for that?

And I mean, this is a way bigger
conversation about like- Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm â¦ you know, prison
reform and all kinds of stuff.

But I just wonder

Would it be more beneficial for everyone,
in society included, you know, for

them to be released at a time when they
can make something else of their lives

instead of just having this be like,
"Oh, well, I'm an ex-con, and so now I'm

just struggling and I'm 60 years old."

Or older.

And how do I live now?

Mm-hmm.

You know?

I don't, I don't know.

Because mo- you know, a lot of
their family will be passed away.

Yeah.

You know?

Yeah, that's hard It's, it's tricky.

Um-

I don't know.

I know that Ben feels a little different

I just

I don't know.

I th- maybe, and I'm not trying to
say that like Ben hasn't forgiven,

'cause I don't know if you have or
not, but- Forgiving is a process.

It is a process, and I, I feel
like I have forgiven them.

I'm a little more black and white.

You made your decision, and
now you got consequences.

Not whining to me about your consequences.

Mm-hmm.

Well, I don't, I don't evenâ¦

Okay, this is gonna maybe be a hot
take, but at this point, the only

one that I have any interest in still
being in prison is Jordan Alexander.

Like, he is the one responsible for
my father's death, and I think it's

appropriate for him to spend more
than nine years in prison for that.

But the other ones, they could be released
in 10 minutes, and I don't have a problem.

I don't have a problem with it.

I want to believe thatâ¦

And I understand that I could be wrong.

I understand that there is an opposite
side of this coin, but the, the side of

the coin that I want to believe in is
that they have spent nine years regretting

what they have done and would vow to
be better and would actually be better.

I get that the flip side of that coin
is that they have spent nine years

regretting what they've done and growing
bitter and making connections with

other people who are in the criminal
world, and they get out and continue

to do the same thing or worse things.

Mm-hmm.

I understand that that's a
possibility, but that's just not the

way that I want to live in my head.

Mm-hmm.

There's just one that
will make you better.

I don't wanna think the worst of people.

I want to believe thatâ¦

I just want to believe that
they would, they would change.

Mm-hmm.

Have any of them tried to
reach out to your family?

Just, just Joshua Eubanks.

He wrote my mom letters before trial.

More than one?

Mm-hmm.

Wow.

Um, he, he offered to mow my
mom's lawn- Oh â¦ to make it up.

Which is why I'm like,
they're like babies.

They're kids, yeah.

Yeah.

Like, I just, I can't, I can't
reconcile the idea that someone who

is offering to mow my mom's lawn is
the same someone who is partially

responsible for my father's death.

Yeah.

Like, that's insane to me.

And maybe that, maybe that made
it easier- Did she write back?

â¦ to forgive them.

No.

Like, he wasn't even allowedâ¦

Like, he was not supposed
to contact her at all.

Right.

Like, the only way we know about that
is because the prosecutor told us.

Like, she didn't actually
receive a letter.

Okay.

Yeah.

It's crazy.

She probably would've been
okay with getting a letter.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Probably would've written him back.

Yeah.

I mean- I honestly don't think
your mom holds any animos-

animosity to them at all.

I, I feel like- You know?

She didn't, she didn't a- act like
it in the courtroom, for sure.

She sure didn't.

If she does, she does
not let anybody know.

Yeah.

I think she is sad about what happened-
Yeah â¦ but she's also very pragmatic,

and she's like, "I- Her, her way
is like- "â¦ this is not gonna do

anything" â¦ well, that happened.

Okay.

Yep.

Now we move on.

We gotta deal with it.

Yep.

We just move on.

We can't change it.

Mm-hmm.

So we're gonna move forward.

Yep.

And crying's for the bathroom, so
we don't- Yeah â¦ like, I tried to

get her to go to hou- to counseling.

She went to probably four visits with
a counselor and was like, "I don't

think- Well- â¦ I need to do this."

Well, and also she's further along
in her- Yeah â¦ in her disease.

Yeah.

But yeah.

Well, the, the, you know, it'sâ¦

I don't know

Here's my view on this, and I may not
have ever said this, probably haven't.

You have to ask yourself, if
there wasn't a group of guys large

enough, the five guys, to make them
brave enough to enter an occupied

house, would they have done it?

Would they have done it with three?

I mean- Would they have done it
with two or did it take all five?

And in my opinion, the smaller the
group, the less brave they were.

Mm-hmm.

I mean- And that's why I still
hold those guys responsible.

I mean, I get that.

I get that.

We see that a lot when
it's a group mentality.

If the group's together, you're a lot more
brave 'cause you got a group of guys doing

the same thing and it makes you brave.

Yeah.

The group's smaller, and then
you go, "Ooh, maybe I don't have

enough to keep from getting hurt."

I get that.

So that's where it comes from me.

I do.

But, but then again, I look
at these guys that have never

done it before and, you know.

What a night to decide to go.

Exactly.

You know?

But they made that decision.

Well, and then there's, there's a
certain part of me that feels like,

you know, if, if my dad would've
survived and could chat with these

boys, like what would my dad say?

You know?

Hmm.

And I feel like overwhelmingly
my dad would tell them to make

use of their time in prison.

Like learn something.

Yeah.

Educate yourself, be prepared, and
then when you get out- Do better.

Yeah â¦ do better.

Love Jesus.

Yeah.

And go, go on- That is
true â¦ to glory, you know?

So I have a hard time if my, if
my dad himself would've told them

like, "What you need is Jesus.

He'll help you figure all
the rest of this out."

Yeah.

So find Jesus, find a trade-
Yeah â¦ find some education.

And it's, you know- Do better.

My, my statement there is not s- I
don't have any hate for these guys.

Yeah.

I don't.

I'm just-

You see it all the time though.

Well, there's consequences.

Yeah, it's, it's not hate for them.

It's just one of those things
where it's like, you know,

consequences are consequences.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

I don't care for them.

I don't hate them.

Yeah.

Just- Yeah â¦ it is what it is.

Uh, yeah

I don't wanna be their best friend
I'm less, I'm, I'm also less

inclined to, to hand, hand out mercy.

Yes, I know.

I've become a little jaded
over the last 14, 15 years.

Yeah.

Um, I don't have that.

Yeah.

Um, I, I guess that's it.

Like I, I feel like I have worked
really, really hard, um, to forgive them.

I, it, it didn't take long,
but it did take work, you know?

Yeah.

Like I feel like we talked about it a lot.

There-- I mean, I wasâ¦

There was, there was probably a good
couple of months where I was real,

real messed up, and then I got into
some therapy and got a little better.

But, um, like I said, highly
recommend the therapy.

Yeah.

Highly recommend.

Well, a lot of people need it.

I mean- Yeah â¦ probably everybody
if you, if you're an adult.

Yes, everybody does.

Yeah.

I just, I think that forgiveness,
you know, we, we talk about it,

especially as Christians, we
talk about we need to forgive.

God forgives you.

God forgives you, and He
does, but we need to forgive.

That's, that's the only thing that
our forgiveness is contingent on.

Mm-hmm.

Nobody's worth- Nobody's
worth going to hell.

Nope.

So- Nobody â¦ I had to work, I had to
work hard, and what really helped is when

I, I just straight up asked God to help
me see these kids the way He sees them.

Like they're, they're not worthless.

They're not pieces of crap.

They, they were not doing the things
that He would have them to do,

but that didn't make them any less
valuable, um, or deserving of anything.

Like Jesus still died for them, so-

Have you ever thought about writing them?

A little bit.

I thought about writing the mom that, um,
testified 'cause I just, I felt like that

took such- Oh, I can't even imagine that

courage, you know?

Yeah.

But I didn't write her.

I haven't thought about
that in a long time.

But- Well, yeah.

I mean, you can think about
it, talk about it in therapy.

Yeah.

You know?

Um, but yeah, now I have to decide,
like, do I have to Zoom into

this stinking thing on Monday?

I think so, yes.

I don't-- What I always say is, would you
regret it if you did or if you didn't?

And most of the time, or, uh, you
know, if I think you would regret

it if you didn't, 'cause you can-
Yeah â¦ never get that opportunity back.

I just, I guess, and we might cut this
part of the conversation, but I, part of

me is just like, why are you asking me to?

Like, I- Is it there's a special reason?

Exactly.

I don't know.

I just think- Why are you asking
me specifically to Zoom in?

Like, please Zoom in for whatever.

I think you should then- Like
she knows I'm out of state and-

Well, you'll never get it again.

Like-

I don't know.

I just think maybe you should.

Yeah.

But- Man.

I know, I know.

More stuff to deal with, but-
And that, and that really, that's

become harder than anything.

Like, I'll be trucking along and doing
just fine, and then I'll get a text

message and I'm like, "Ugh, dang."

Someday there won't be any more.

Yeah.

I don't think.

Well, unless Michigan
keeps on doing their crap.

Well, I, I guess, yeah, theoretically,
I mean, we, we potentially have 60 years

worth of this, but- That's true, yeah,
because they're, they're gonna keep

revisiting and revisiting and why wouldâ¦

I mean, if you're that person
sitting in jail, why wouldn't you?

You'd be like- Exactly â¦ "I have
no hope of doing anything else."

Because it doesn't cost them anything.

Exactly.

'Cause they're indigent at this point.

It's on the state.

Yeah.

So everything that they, that
gets filed like that, it's all

just the state's paying for it.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Like they're, they're, they're, they're
paying millions of dollars- Yeah

to appeal cases and to appeal sentences
like this that are, are just, because

we've gLorriefied criminal behavior.

Well, in movies and- In movies- All the
things â¦ in songs- Yeah â¦ in life.

Yeah.

They celebrate the criminal.

Yep.

Mm-hmm.

That's true.

When you, when you lose, uh,
you start losing your morality,

um, and your integrity and you
sacrifice it, this is what happens.

Yeah.

Hmm.

Yep.

Oh, what hope is there, Jill?

There's always hope in Jesus.

Mm-hmm.

I, it c- itâ¦

Listen, this is gonna sound
so callous, but dad's dead.

I'm not gonna get him back.

But you are gonna see him.

I am gonna see him again.

And so all, it can't get worse.

Yeah.

Like, it can't get worse.

Not that.

Not that part.

So- Yeah â¦ and th- there has been some
good that we have made come out of this.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

Like, I, I am closer with my
sisters now, which is weird.

Mm-hmm.

It's- Yeah â¦ I didn't ever think, like
growing up, that I would, I wouldâ¦

We're not close by any means.

Like, we're, we're not close, but we
aren't- I, I feel like we would, we could

almost have been defined as like estranged
or estranged- Mm-hmm â¦ beforehand, like

before this happened, and now we're not.

Now we're just like- We all lived
through something traumatic together.

Yeah.

And that always brings people together.

Yeah.

I mean, for the most part.

Yeah.

But, and you're of course
closer to your mom.

Mm-hmm.

I think your dad would be proud that
y'all have, that his, his event has

made a difference in your relationship.

You know?

Yeah.

Sitting right there at the right hand
of Jesus, that's what he's doing.

I mean- And I can't understand why-
Why â¦ somebody would wanna talk.

Yeah.

I feel like I know this guy, and
I've seen him- I mean- â¦ maybe

two times- Yep â¦ briefly.

Yeah.

Yeah, he didn't visit very often.

He and mom both, like for some reason
they had no problem with us driving two

little kids all the way to Michigan.

Mm.

But they did not seem to think
that the highway traveled two ways.

They didn't realize how hot it was either.

We need to put some pictures up of him.

Oh, Lord.

Okay.

I'll see if I can find- Yeah â¦ some
good ones- Oh, wow â¦ of my dad.

Getting one of the- He was a
character â¦ showing off his tattoo.

Yeah, he was a character.

I don't know if I have that one.

You don't?

I might have to like see if I can
hop on- There you go â¦ his Facebook

and just jack a bunch of pictures.

Yeah.

But- Him with his gun and his tattoo.

He had a straight up midlife crisis and
got a sports car and a tattoo and a gun

all the, the same year he turned 50.

What is the tattoo?

The drums.

Drums.

'Cause he was a drummer.

Where'd he get it?

On his arm.

Oh.

Where on this arm?

His, his left arm.

Yeah, and took a picture- And what's
funny is- â¦ of himself with the

tattoo and the gun on his leg up on it.

On, on his sports car.

On his, on his race car.

Which, what's funny is it's
not even really a sports car.

It was like a Grand Prix.

Yeah.

It's just the sportiest
car he ever had, you know?

Yeah.

'Cause he just didn't.

He had like a Park Avenue and a minivan
and stuff, and then got a Grand Prix.

Yeah.

And, and was like, "It's fast."

But yeah, he, he was a trip.

Yep.

He was.

But, so that- That's that â¦ that's-
Two times in your life

that's the second time.

Hopefully we're done.

I- Yeah, you're done.

You got enough â¦ would like for
this to be the last time- That's

it â¦ I'm touched by murder.

Definitely.

Yeah.

Okay.

Well, we can't ask you the question.

We've already asked you.

As long as I mind my P's
and Q's- â¦ it won't be me.

Yeah.

You just remember that.

Do you hear that evil laugh?

Yeah.

And then she paused.

Yeah.

It was like- â¦ a little chilling.

I was just thinking, "Ooh."

She's just floating away.

She's like, "Oh, he's onto me."

I was like, "Mm."

But y'all know if I drop dead, all that
dude has to do is feed me some coconut.

I think you're developing an immune to it.

You think?

Yeah.

Well, I did have that one drink.

Yeah.

She, I got a coconut- We prayed
hard, though â¦ coconut Sprite,

which is delicious by the way, um,
at Sonic, and she sure enough took-

I accidentally took a drink â¦ she
just took a big old swig of it.

I thought it was mine.

I was like, "What are you doing?"

I thought it was my drink.

But yeah.

And it was gross.

We did immediately- I didn't like it
â¦ start praying, but she lived through it.

Yeah.

Thank goodness.

Which is funny because the
cross-contamination on the snow

cone- â¦ made me look like
Angelina Jolie for like three days.

Yep.

I just- Just 'cause it swelled up my lips.

Yeah.

They looked crazy.

Okay, well- We can't ask the question?

No.

We can't ask the question.

No.

We need to think of
another question anyway

Yeah, we will.

We'll have to think of another
one for- We could ask Ben.

This was kind of a Ben episode too.

Yeah.

What, what, uh, um, story in
the Bible would you wanna visit?

Haven't I already answered that?

You answered it once with Angela, but-
Oh â¦ do you- I didn't necessarily feel

that way â¦ do you have a new answer?

'Cause, you know, it changes for me.

Like now, ever since that episode
that I did with Dewey and Smarty,

all I can think about is the foxes
have their tails tied together

What?

No, I know.

I, I was looking at Ben.

He's like got his thinking face on

Why are you glaring at me?

Just thinking.

I mean, there's some good ones

I don't know.

I can't think of one.

We don't have to.

I think I'd like to see Paul get blinded.

The road to Tarsus.

Damascus.

Or Damascus, I mean.

Yeah

Yeah, I think that'd be neat Yeah

I had thought about that

See a big old butthole
get blinded and thenâ¦

Can we say butthole on the- No.

We can't?

No.

We can.

I'm kidding.

Oh, I'm like, "Really?"

Don't be a mean guy.

All right.

Well, this was really good and-
Yeah â¦ heavy, but- Yep â¦ um, I

know people have wondered, so because
we'd mentioned it the first one, so.

Yep.

My therapist will be proud of me.

Yeah.

As long as you get that gold star.

Uh, they're important.

Yeah.

They're important.

Okay.

Well, until next time.

All right.

See ya.

Bye.

Okay, well we're back just for a
brief addendum to Jill's, um, chapter.

Yeah.

Um, after we recorded, she
thought of a few more things

that she would like to add.

So Jill, I'm handing this over to you.

Well, it's not so much that I thought of
a few more things that I wanted to add.

It was more that, um, I wanted to make
sure that we really tackled the, um

The aspect of forgiveness in all of this.

I think that when I look at the
situation as a whole, the overwhelming

lesson I think that I have picked up
through it is just that it, it's just

so important for us to forgive, not for
the other person, but for ourselves.

Mm-hmm.

Like, for our own spirit
and peace and everything.

It's- we're commanded by God to forgive.

Like, it's the one thing that our
forgiveness is dependent upon.

Mm-hmm.

You know?

It's, it's pretty clear.

God says that, you know, if we
don't forgive, he can't forgive us.

Yeah.

So- That's true â¦ and I mean, I know
that we, we did mention, like, nobody's

worth going to hell for, but I think that,
um- It's, it, I don't, I don't know how to

maybe articulate it well enough, I guess.

Just this overwhelming feeling of
like if it do- it doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter what happens.

It doesn't matter what
you're going through.

It doesn't matter what the harm
is to you, what the offense is.

You have got to find a way to get to
forgiveness, and it, it certainly is a

process- Mm-hmm â¦ that we go through.

Um, I, I do think, like you and I
had talked about, um, just the, from

the beginning of this, like from the
day Dad was killed, you know, there,

there was never really a time where
I did not consciously think, "Girl,

you can't, you can't hold a grudge.

You, you have to work on
forgiving these people.

You, you have to, you have
to learn how to do this.

Like, you have, you have to do it."

And every single day it's a decision
that you make, and y- you only get there

through a lot of help from the Lord.

Like- Mm-hmm â¦ just a lot
of conversations where it's

like, "I don't want to."

Well, and there's days- "I don't want to."

â¦ you fail that.

You, you don'tâ¦

Some days you're like, "No,
I'm hanging on to this."

Exactly.

But God knows where
you are in the process.

Mm-hmm.

You know, He knows what, how
you're gonna feel tomorrow.

Yeah, and I think He also
knows the intent, you know?

Mm-hmm.

And, and I think He knows
that, like, some daysâ¦

'Cause grief is weird.

N- first of all, no one grieves the
same, so to compare your grief journey

with anyone else's, even if you're
going through the exact same thing.

Like, my sister's grief journey is
not the same as my grief journey, even

though we both lost our dad to murder.

Mm-hmm.

Like, we are living the same circumstance,
but our journey is not the same.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

I mean, a lot of that has to do with
our, our individual walks with the

Lord are very different, you know?

Um, and I'm not saying that, like,
our individual walks, like April and

Jayna's are just different than mine.

What I'm saying is our, like,
collective as a people, you know- Mm-hmm

humans, our walk with the Lord is very
unique and different and specific to us.

Therefore, our walk through grief
is going to be very different.

Um, so you, you just can't compare
your grief to anyone else's.

You know, they talk about there are, you
know, seven stages of grief, and theâ¦

I'm, I'm not saying that that's not valid.

There are seven stages of
grief, but I don't think that

they go necessarily in order.

Um, so that can be confusing
and overwhelming to people, like

especially to me, who expects things
to go in a very sequential order.

Mm-hmm.

I'm like, I'm, I'm in acceptance,
you know, this week, and next

week I might be in anger.

Yeah.

And that's not how it's supposed to be.

It's supposed to be the opposite.

Right.

Like, you go through anger first.

Um, but it's just, you bounce around.

And so on certain days, you know, I would
be having these conversations with, with

God, and it would be easy for me to say,
"I don't harbor any ill will to them.

I don't, I don't resent them.

I'm not angry.

You know, I'm good."

And then other days I would be
like, "No, nope, I'm real, real mad.

I wanna hang onto it.

I don't want to let it go.

It's not fair."

Like, it, it was especially bad,
I remember, um, I was in Walmart,

and I had to pick somethingâ¦

I can't remember what I was picking up,
but I remember thinking, "Dad will know."

And I pulled my phone out, and I, I,
like, started to- Mm â¦ call him.

And it, it was, like,
probably eight months later.

Mm-hmm.

Like, what?

Why did I call- Yeah â¦ my dad, you know?

I've had that experience before with
grandparents, so I'm gonna- Yeah.

And, and I remember I was standing in
the middle of Walmart, and I have my

phone in my hand, a- and I just froze.

Mm-hmm.

I was just like, "W- what?"

And then I just turned and left.

And I got home, and Ben was like,
"Did you get whatever it was?"

And did I think about calling Ben?

No, I didn't.

Mm-mm.

But I was gonna call my dad.

So I'm in the middle of Walmart and
I, you know, I'm staring at my phone.

I'm like, "What on earth?"

And then I just turned and left.

And so I get home and I ask â¦ You know,
Ben's like, "Did you get whatever it was?"

And I was like, "No."

And I felt like a zombie.

I'm sure I looked like a zombie.

And he's like, "What's wrong with you?"

And I was like, "I couldn't
remember what ki- " So I called

my dad, and he was like, "What?"

And I was like, "Yeah.

I don't know what to do with it."

And I just like zombie walked into
the bedroom and he's, he's like, "Oh,

I guess I'm in charge of this now."

You know, whatever.

Um, but it just, eight months later and
I pulled my phone out just like it was

nothing, like I was gonna call my dad.

Grief is weird and like I remember
the days after that, like it just felt

brand new and I, I remember kind of
getting angry with God being like,

first of all, why is this brand new?

Mm-hmm.

Because it's been eight months and
I should be further along than this.

And also it felt brand new in the
journey of forgiveness as well.

Like eight months was just
completely wiped away.

Um, so just, it's not a straight line.

It's not a, it's not a light switch.

Forgiveness is an absolute process.

Yeah.

Um, I remember Pastor Ronnie did
a, um, sermon on forgiveness at

one point and, um, it was in May.

It was â¦ He messaged
me on May the 4th, 2014.

May the 4th.

Exactly.

May the 4th be with you.

On May 4th, 2019.

And, um, we were actually driving to

Sentencing, I believe.

Like, we-- I think we were headed
there and he had asked meâ¦

We, we either were driving there or
we had-- we were on the trip there,

but I remember we were in Michigan for
sentencing, and he was doing a, a sermon

on forgiveness, and so he asked me, um

He asked me if I would have any thoughtâ¦

He, I'll just read it, read the
text- Mm â¦ 'cause I keep receipts.

So here they are.

Hope you don't mind, Pastor Ronnie.

He said, "I'm preaching on
forgiveness toward others tomorrow.

Any feelings or thoughts as
you await the sentencing of

those who murdered your father?

Forgiveness takes time, and I realize your
feelings are raw, so your honesty is okay.

Praying for y'all."

He's so sweet.

So I prayed about it,
you know, for a while.

Mm-hmm.

And, um, and then I responded with this.

And I, in reading it, I'm like , I,
I feel like this is kind ofâ¦

It, it encapsulates my
thoughts on the whole of it.

I don't think that I've
gotten much further than this.

I think that I'm, like, this let
me know I have forgiven them.

Yeah.

Um, so I don't know if there's any
need to go further than it, but

I feel like it's pertinent still.

This is, well, I think that
forgiveness is hard to pinpoint.

I don't know if I can recall a
specific moment when I consciously

forgave these kids, but searching
my heart now, I know that I don't

have any unforgiveness towards them.

Um, forgiveness, in this instance
especially, has come quietly and softly.

It wasn't until I came face to face
with these guys and I felt sad, not for

myself but for them, that I realized
that I had fully forgiven them.

It wasn't a moment of logical
clarity or any other kind of reason.

It came through a process of prayer
and time with the Lord, where I

allowed him to really wash away the
hurt of the circumstances and show

me these gentlemen with his eyes.

These kids who made a series of terrible
choices and certainly have consequences

to deal with, but who God still loves
and h- adores and hopes for their souls.

So I think when you can get to a pointâ¦

This is, this is the goal, I think,
in getting through hurt and getting

to a point where you forgive someone.

If you can get to a point where you
can look at someone and see how God

views them and, and legitimately
only think about w- where their soul

is- Mm-hmm â¦ then you've hit it.

Yeah.

You've hit forgiveness.

And I would say probably 99% of the time,
that's where I am with these five guys.

Yeah.

So, and I'm not trying to be, like,
any kind of, like, you know, arrogant

about it or whatever, but like, if I can
forgive five dudes who killed my dad-

I just don't ha- oh.

I just don't have a whole lot
of patience for people who

wanna hold grudges- Yeah, I do

about minor things, or even great things.

Not saying that, you know, it's notâ¦

Forgiveness is an easy process at all.

No.

But- No, of course not.

It- But if you can get to that place, and
if Jesus can get to that place- Right.

Exactly â¦ um, you know, other
people can get to that place.

Well, th- there's hope for everyone.

Yeah.

'Cause there ain't
nothing special about me.

Yeah.

So- Have I said on the pod about, like,
pushing that person in front of the train?

No, I don't think you have.

I think it's time, though.

Okay.

So I have had a lots ofâ¦

I mean, everybody has experience
with forgiveness, but this one

particular time it really just
made sense about the process.

Yeah.

Because it does take, you know,
when you're growing up, I think

you're taught forgive and forget.

Go.

It's o- Well, and- It's over.

And also, God never says forget.

No, he doesn't.

He forgets.

Yeah.

He forgives and throws it into
the sea of forgetfulness, but he

does not command that we forget.

Yeah, just we just have to forgive.

Yeah.

It's what we're required to do.

So I would pass by this person's house
who didn't really even do anything to me.

They did it to my family.

And I, I'll just say, I hated him.

I hated him.

Yeah.

Um, and so I would passâ¦

And you know, the, it, they did
something, talked bad about my parents,

but in a really, really bad way.

Um, my parents had a easier time
forgiving that person than I do.

Yeah.

And I think it's just because it's
harder when you're, it's, you're trying

to be protective of your loved ones.

I think, I think forgiving an offense
that you have taken up for someone

else is more difficult- Yeah â¦ than
an offense that was committed to you.

Yeah.

So I would pass this person's house
a lot, um, and I would just, I'd

be filled with hate, like, "I can't
s- I can't stand this person."

I don't know that I ever said
I hated him, but I could not

stand him to the Nth degree.

Uh-huh.

Yeah.

So, and, um, I would, if there was a
train coming towards this person, I

would fold my arms and watch it happen.

Yeah.

And be happy about it.

Yeah.

I mean, let's just be honest.

If we're gonna be honest,
I'm gonna be honest.

Exactly.

Um, and you know, God started
dealing with me in a gentle way.

Like, it wasn't- 'Cause
he does start gentle.

Yeah.

I mean, not all the time.

Not all the time.

But- But then he
did â¦ this one he, he did.

Yeah.

And he was like, you know,
"I command you to forgive.

That's my, in my word."

And I was like, "I can't do it."

Basically- Mm-hmm â¦ you
know, in a nutshell, he's like,

"You're gonna have to try."

So I would try, and I, the next
step, I got to the point, "Okay,

the train's coming toward him.

I will whisper."

You can barely hear me.

Yeah.

And, uh, "Okay, I can get to that point.

I can do that."

You know, weeks went by.

Mm-hmm.

"Okay, I can say that a little louder."

You know?

Hey- It would be a
little- â¦ there's a train.

"Hey, I'll just say it normal.

Hey, there's a train.

Watch out."

Mm-hmm.

And then it, you know,
got to the yelling part.

I would yell, scream,
"Hey, there's a train."

And then it got to the part where, you
know, I would push him out of the way.

Yeah.

And take the train for myself.

Yeah.

It took a long, long time to get there.

A long, long time.

Yeah.

I would- It's not a fast thing â¦ I
would say a year, two years.

I don't know.

A long time.

Yeah.

And when I could get there, it's
like a gigantic weight was gone.

Yeah.

What's funny is, like, do you remember
a time where you were like, "I'm-

I've decided," or do you think that
you just gave yourself the train,

like, analogy, like, test again?

'Cause I know that you do that from
time to time where you're like, "Howâ¦

Let me check in and see how
I'm feeling about this."

So when you checked in and you realized
like, "No, I, I would push them out

of the way," like, were you surprised?

Yeah 'Cause I was surprised.

Yeah, I was.

And now, you know, that
person has passed away.

Mm-hmm.

I did talk to him at Walmart.

He didn't even- Yeah â¦ he didn't
even know- Right â¦ that I was so-

It was all in you â¦ mad, you know?

All in your own head.

Yeah.

But he said something to me
because we had been to a funeral

together and he saw me there.

He said something to me about the funeral,
and I was just like any other person.

Mm-hmm.

Like, like I would talk to
any other person, just nice.

Polite.

Mm-hmm.

And that's when I kind
of knew this is over.

Yeah.

This is over.

You know, did I ever weep tears over him?

No.

Mm-mm.

Um, I hope he made it to heaven.

I really do.

Yeah.

Um, because I don't wish that on anyone.

Nope.

No matter what they did, I don't wantâ¦

That's no more chances.

Exactly.

Except for the devil, yeah, and
his- Well â¦ little people.

Yeah.

But yeah, no more chances at all.

And I can't- Mm-mm â¦ I
can't wish that on anybody.

No.

I don't want himâ¦

I hope he made things right.

I don't know his spiritual
life, you know, at all.

But I hope he was right-
Yeah â¦ with God.

But yeah, it was a long time.

Yep.

And that's okay, as long
as you're in the process.

Right.

I think that, again, it's not
about checking off a list of rights

and wrongs and dos and don'ts.

It's, it is the relationship with
God, and God knows whether you are

intentionally, um, and authentically,
genuinely going after forgiveness or

whether you're just plain lip service.

Mm-hmm.

Um, I remember being shocked when, like,
when I typed that to Pastor Ronnie and

said, "When I search my heart, I don't
f- I don't find any unforgiveness."

That, that not finding unforgiveness was
when I realized I must have forgiven them.

Because for a long time it wasn'tâ¦

I, I, I didn't have the point where, like,
I wanted to watch them get hit by a train.

Mm-hmm.

I didn't have that.

I didn't have even just, uh,
uh â¦ Again, grief is weird.

So there, there was a lot of times
when even immediately following, I,

I didn't really have anger for them.

Mm-hmm.

Um, also, I mean, to be fair, I,
I did have the, the hope and the

knowledge that Dad was with the Lord.

Mm-hmm.

I do have the, the opportunity to see
him again, you know, in the next life.

So on the one hand, it, it's
kinda like how you and I talk and

we're like, "Listen, if I die,
don't you dare resuscitate me."

Like, don't you dare do CPR on me.

Yeah.

How, how in, how are you gonna
try to bring me back to this?

Mm-hmm.

What?

After you've experienced- Yeah â¦ that,
who wants to come back to this?

How am Iâ¦

Like I- listen.

Mm-hmm I'm, I'm, I don't have
a DNR, uh, file or anything.

But if I fell over on the floor,
like I wouldn't necessarily begrudge

you if you waited, you know, a
little bit before you called 911.

Like I'm just like, "Mm."

Well, 'cause we know.

Exactly.

We know what it's gonna be like.

Exactly.

And to be in the presence
of God is everything.

Doâ¦

I mourned more for my mom, you know,
for the- Yeah â¦ the loss of her

spouse, the loss of her caregiver.

I lo- I mourned for my kids for
the loss of their grandfather.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and I, you know, I had a
complicated relationship with Dad.

So, uh, there were times when I
mourned for my dad, but it was, it

was I guess easier for me to just
look at the matter-of-factness of the

situation, which is why I'm in therapy.

'Cause even- Mm â¦ still I'm
like, it was just what it was.

It happened.

I cannot change it, can't go
back, so let's move forward.

But because of that,
I just couldn't seeâ¦

I, I just was sad for them.

I just, I felt pity, and
I felt like, what a shame.

Mm.

What a shame that this happened.

What a shame that they did this.

They were kids.

And that's it.

They were kids.

You know, I was 30-something yearâ¦

No, I wasn't.

I, we don't talk about age.

That's right.

Uh, also that was incorrect.

If anybody knows how old I am and
they do the math, they'll know

that was not a correct- Yeah â¦ a
correct, uh, age right there.

But I was, you know, very much an adult.

Mm-hmm.

And I'm looking at these kids,
and I'm just like, "Oh my gosh.

How?"

One decision made a-
Yeah â¦ their life horrible.

Yeah, I mean, certainly a, a co- for
several of them, a collection of,

yeah, bad choices led up to that.

And as Ben talked about, you know,
like I had never, I'd never given

any kind of thought about the, the,
you know, power in numbers and like

there was a group of five of them, and
would they have entered an occupied

home if there were only two or three?

Mm-hmm.

You know, like I, I don't know.

And we'll never know.

Would, would things have been different
if my dad had not decided to go get

his pistol and start shooting at them?

Mm-hmm.

Like, I don't know.

We will never, ever know.

It, it doesn't do any good for me
to go down that road of what ifs.

Um, but also, like I
don't, I don't feel like-

I feel like I knew from the jump, "Girl,
you have to forgive these people."

And so because of that, I think God
really helped me not have just a ton of

anger and bitterness to, to hold onto.

It was, it was really from day one, He was
like, "Okay, we're gonna wash this away."

And it was like a daily washing of it.

Yeah.

Until finally I, I didn't
have to wash anymore.

Mm-hmm.

So I just know that it is super important.

I, w- and I know that we talked a lot
about the, the ins and outs of the

case and the situation, and there's
humor and there's stuff, and there,

like I'm closer with my sisters,
and there's, there's a lot in there.

But overwhelming, overwhelmingly what
I want to have people walk away from

this is you just have to forgive people.

Mm-hmm.

It doesn't mean you have to
let them back in your circle-

No â¦ or anything like that.

Mm-mm.

You are just required to forgive.

And it doesn't make what they did okay.

Nope.

It doesn't make what they did okay.

At all.

It doesn't mean that you have to,
you have to be their best friend.

It doesn't mean that you have to
have anything to do with them.

You just have to get to
where you have forgiven them.

Yeah.

You don't harbor ill will.

You don't harbor resentment, and it
is so freeing to get to that point.

Yeah.

And it's different for everybody.

I don't think, I mean, I'm
speaking for him now, but I don't

think Ben is there yet at all.

Like, I mean, I think
he's going through it.

He's, he is a lot more black and white
than I am about this, and he does have

the difficulty of seeing this thing
inside and out, day in and day out.

Yeah.

You know?

Um, but I, I, now I pray for Ben- Mm-hmm
â¦ you know, to be able to forgive them.

Chloe and Owen have
their own walk about it.

Um, you know, Owen-

Owen is very

Like once and done, you know?

Mm-hmm.

Like, so I, I feel like he'sâ¦

I hope he's forgiven them.

I think that he has.

Um, but he just, he doesn't
really talk about them.

I'm thinking about, like, other
instances in his life where he's gotten

kind of upset at people's actions,
and he's just been like, "All right."

Mm-hmm.

And then you're just done, you know?

He's, he's notâ¦

He maybe isn't holding unforgiveness,
but he's just not gonna have you around.

Yeah.

You know?

So it's a little difficult
to get a read on him.

I think Chloe is good.

I think she's like, okay.

I, but I think they alsoâ¦

Kids learn from watching.

Yeah.

People learn from watching.

The people around you learn from watching.

And if you can forgive, it was your dad.

Yeah.

Other people need to.

Yeah.

You know?

And that's, and it goes back to Jesus.

If Jesus can forgive us- That's
it â¦ when we continuously hurt

him- Mm-hmm â¦ by our actions
and thoughts and everything.

Yeah.

Who are we?

Exactly.

Like- How, how am I gonnaâ¦

I mean, like, and, and
nothing is required of me.

Like, I don't have to climb
up on a cross for them.

Nope.

So- Yeah â¦ how dare I not forgive?

Mm.

How dare I not at least work on forgiving?

Mm-hmm.

You don't have to do it overnight.

Exactly.

You know?

Exactly.

I think if Jesus would have come back
during those, you know- During that, yeah

span of time where I was
struggling, I still would've gone.

For sure.

He can see the future- For sure â¦ and
he can see me working on it.

But, you know, I was really- I mean, I
have a timestamp that shows, like, it

was two years later when I realized, oh,
I don't have any unforgiveness for them.

You know, I f- I really genuinely
thought when I was responding to

Pastor Ronnie that I was going
to be like, "Uh, I don't know.

I'll let you know when I get there."

Yeah.

But when I really started,
like, evaluating, I was like,

"I don't have any unforgiveness.

Hmm."

Yeah.

"How about that?"

You know?

And then it became a whole thing
about like, well, thank you, God.

But also, like, when did that happen?

Yeah.

I d- I don't know.

There's not a moment
where you can just point.

Sometimes there is a moment where
you can point to it and say, "I know

distinctly this, this is the moment.

This is how I reached
forgiveness for someone."

But I don't know.

In my life, it's quiet.

Mm-hmm.

It's quiet and sneaky.

Yep.

So if you are harboring
unforgiveness, think about it.

Do you think sometimes- Pray about it

this might get taken out, 'cause this is
really just, like, Jill asking Kerrye.

This is not, like, podcast
Jill asking podcast Kerrye.

But do you think that sometimes
forgiveness feels l- a little bit

like apathy over the situation?

Like, when you can get to a point
where you're just like, "I mean,

I don't- I don't care about it.

Yeah.

I think so.

Like, you almost get to where, like, uh,
you don't have good feelings about it,

but you don't have bad feelings about
it, and so you're like, "I, I don't- Yeah

â¦ I don't have anything to weigh in."

I think you need to find a way, like
I did, to judge yourself though.

Like, to be like, "Do I?"

Yeah.

Like, really think about that
person, and I feel like when you

can get to the point where I, I
want them to see me in heaven- Yeah

you're, you've prob- you've forgiven.

Yeah.

It's not like you wanna spend
time with these people, you know?

Like- Certainly not in their- Hon-
â¦ earthly bodies and- No, no â¦ never.

Everything will be different in heaven,
but, you know, no- the Bible does

not say you have to like some people.

It just says you- It doesn't
say you have to like anybody.

It says you have to love them â¦ love
them, and love doesn't mean, "Hey,

Co- Sometimes- â¦ spend time with me.

Listen- Come over.

I'veâ¦

you know.

Sometimes love means stay away.

Stay away from me.

Mm-hmm.

That's the best way.

Sometimes love is, I need
to stay away from you.

Yeah.

Like, the way I love you
is by not being around you.

Yeah.

That's all right.

I mean, if you're married, you know.

That you already know these feelings.

Yes.

Like, I just need you
to go away for a minute.

Yeah.

I- Or two, or an hour, or two.

Yeah.

So.

If you have children, I feel like
you definitely understand that.

Yeah.

Like- Well, a child is a little bit
different than a spouse, though.

I feel like.

I mean, maybe.

I do.

I haveâ¦

It's a totally different
relationship, but- Yeah.

But yeah, there's times that I'm
like, I have said, "I just, I need

you to go into the other room."

Exactly.

To the kids too.

Yeah.

Like, I just need you to go.

Like, I love you to pieces.

I need 10 minutes by myself.

Yeah.

I, I just need you to not be around.

That doesn't really have anything
to do with forgiveness, but- No.

But- But also, I mean, like,
we, we also have adult children.

Mm-hmm.

And they are making choices that we don't
necessarily agree with all the time.

You know what I mean?

And I know that there have been
choices that, you know, even,

like, minor things where I'm like,
"I don't, I don't like that."

I'mâ¦

And it would be very easy to just, like,
dig heels in and hold a grudge until

they- Mm-hmm â¦ come and apologize
and say they were wrong and da, da,

da, and that doesn't always happen.

Yeah.

And so sometimes it very much is like
I need to put some distance between

me and you for a minute so that-
Mm-hmm â¦ I can get to a point where

I'm not mad about this, and I can forgive
you for disobeying my- I feel like-

my decision, even though- The closer
the person is- â¦ it's not minor â¦ to

you, the harder it is to forgive them.

Like- Ooh, yeah â¦ definitely.

Like, if I had been dealing with a
family member that I've known and

grown up with and- Yeah â¦ been
day in, day out, you know, or seen

a lot, and it was that person that
hurt my pa- parents, you know- Yeah

that would've been harder.

Yeah.

Um, that's- Well, 'cause
it's, it's a betrayal.

Yeah, it's a betrayal.

It's not just- But if Jesus
can forgive Judas, you know?

Right.

Yeah.

You know, then we can forgive.

You know, Judas still met a bad
end, but that was his decision.

Yeah.

You know?

That was hisâ¦

I don't know.

My theology on it might be-

different.

That's for a different time.

That is a different time.

Yeah.

'Cause I'm just like- We gotta think
about that one â¦ he, mm, I don't know.

Like, I, sometimes I wonder, this is,
this is maybe something we get Dean

Credible on here- Mm-hmm â¦ and we
ask him, but I'm like, I wonder, 'cause

like, it says Judas was possessed, right?

Mm-hmm.

So Judas got possessed, did, did
what he did, and then, like, when

he was not possessed anymore, like,
and he saw what happened, and like

was in his right mind, I just,
how, how do you live with yourself?

I guess that's another point that
we probably need to make is as

important as, uh, as it is for you
to forgive other people, you need

to be able to forgive yourself.

Yeah.

And if God can forgive us, if Jesus
can forgive us, then we can as well.

Yep.

You do have to forgive yourself.

You have to, over and over.

You have to extend yourself forgiveness
and grace and be able to move forward,

'cause otherwise God can't use you.

Yeah.

God can't use you if you're beating
yourself up about all the things.

Like, repent, ge- like genuinely
go with repentance and, you know,

vow to do better and, and change,
and then do your best to do that.

Mm-hmm.

And if you fall again,
then you repent again.

And if you gotta ride the altar
the whole way, then do it.

But- Yeah â¦ just do your best.

Try.

Yeah.

And don't beat yourself up.

When you r- listen, if I were God,

I would get so tired of people asking
me for forgiveness for the same thing.

Like, even though you
haven't done it again.

You know what I mean?

Like, oh, 'cause when-

we're human, and so like, oh, I stole-
You remember â¦ I stole this piece

of candy when I was five, and I have
asked for forgiveness 18 million times,

but I still remember stealing the
piece of candy, so what if I forgot?

Okay, so I'm gonna
ask- â¦ for forgiveness again.

And you know God's up there, like, "I
put it in the Sea of Forgetfulness."

I don't know what you're talking about.

"I don't know what you're talking about."

He chooses that, yeah.

Yeah.

He chooses to forget that.

Yeah.

So, yeah.

So don't keep beating yourself up about
stuff that God's already put under the

blood, that you've put under the blood
and God is honoring as under the blood.

Mm-hmm.

And it's gone.

Yeah.

So.

Yeah.

That's good.

Forgiveness is a, it's a difficult-
It is â¦ and, like, complicated,

intertwined, tricky little thing, but
it's huge at the same time, you know?

Yeah.

So anyway, I just wanted to make
sure that we really nailed down-

Mm-hmm â¦ that forgiveness is
what we wanna walk away from.

Yeah.

Like, it is, it's a crazy story.

It is part of the testimony.

It is hopefully the last
time I deal with murder.

Um- You've had your dose.

It's good.

I've had, had a double dose.

Yeah.

I don't need any more.

Um, but I, I just, if, if you wanna
ask questions, you can ask questions.

I don't care.

I don't care to talk
about it most of the time.

Um, leave me alone in the month of July,
though, 'cause that's, that's tough.

Yeah.

Just don't ask in July.

But, um, yeah.

Yeah.

Just be sure to forgive
people, forgive yourselves.

Yep.

Amen.

So that's all.

Okay.

All right.

Till next time.

Toodles.

Bye

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