REUPLOAD: Project Hail Mary Part 1 - Andy Weir - Science Fiction Book - Apocalyptic Fiction Book

Hey Adventurers! Given all this Project Hail Mary hype, we've decided to reupload our original discussion of the book. These are the episodes in which Spencer took over the podcast for two episodes. And, yes, we are still on break, but be on the lookout for more updates this summer. 

YouTube Reaction: https://youtu.be/mivtHl-R3Nc (see what we look like)

(00:00) Intro
(01:43) Character Exploration and Themes
(05:35) Andy Weir's Writing Style and Research
(09:40) Common Sci-Fi Tropes in the Novel
(13:24) Naming Conventions and Their Significance
(18:15) Plot Structures: Flashbacks and Race Against Time
(30:13) Exploring Time Dilation and Its Implications
(32:30) The Race Against Time: Tension and Engagement
(35:33) Stratt's Ethical Dilemmas and Leadership
(38:21) Character Foils: Stratt vs. Grace
(42:52) Man vs. Nature: The Astrophage Threat
(46:35) Cultural Relativism: Cooperation Across Species
(51:40) Literary Devices: Humor, Cliffhangers, and Themes

Discover Side Quest: https://linktr.ee/asidequest
Powered by Descript
Our IG Channel⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ | Leave us a comment & connect with us on Instagram

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Our TikTok Channel⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ | Music by HoliznaCC0v

Creators and Guests

Host

Jonathan

Host

Slava

What is The Side Quest Book Club Podcast?

Join Slava and Jonathan as they discuss the books they are reading. Explore world-building, characters, and story development—and share some laughs along the way. Side Quest Book Club — a literary adventure podcast.

Slava (00:00.502)
Where this was born out of was he wanted to make a successor, a spiritual successor to the Martian where the stakes are higher. He also wanted the protagonist to be juxtaposed to the protagonist of the Martian. The Martian protagonist, one thing that stands out is he swears a lot, whereas Relen Grace doesn't. And that's because he's a teacher and he's learned to say poop and heck, holy cow, instead of the other equivalents of that.

And that's how he started writing Project Hail Mary.

Welcome back SideQuesters. Today we have a really fun episode as well as next time. We are having a SideQuest takeover by our resident expert Spencer. So Spencer, take it away.

Yeah, thanks Jonathan for that intro. Appreciate that. I'm looking forward to starting off this episode here. Today we're going to be looking at the book Project Hail Mary by author Andy Weir. We're going to do a two episode arc this time. First half of the book, first episode, second half of the book, second episode, and some other fun segments there in the second episode.

Alright, thanks Spencer. Before we get into it, make sure you hit that subscribe button so you never miss out on a side quest.

Spenser (01:31.394)
Perfect. So as we jump into it here, I'll just give us a little bit of a summary on the book. So Rylan Grace is the sole survivor on a desperate last chance mission. If he fails, humanity and the earth itself will perish. Except that right now, he doesn't know that. He can't even remember his own name, let alone the nature of his assignment or how to complete it. All he knows is that he's been asleep for a very, very long time and he's just been awakened to find himself millions of miles from home.

With nothing but two corpses for company. His true mate's dead, his memory is fuzzily returning. Ryland realizes that an impossible task now confronts him. Hurling through space on his tiny ship, it's up to him to puzzle out an impossible scientific mystery and conquer an extinction level threat to our species. And with the clock ticking down and with the nearest human being light years away, he's got to do it all alone. Or does he? I originally picked this book.

I really enjoy sci-fi. I love a good hard sci-fi novel. I think some of themes in this book are really thought-provoking and I just wanted to explore that a little bit. But I'm curious guys, have either of you read this book before?

I have not. You mentioned it to me a long time ago and I forgot about it. I didn't pick it up at the time, but when we came up with this idea for your takeover, you thought about a book for a while and then you recommended it. And I was like, I've seen it around. You've recommended it to me. A couple other people I think have as well. And I was like, okay. I mean, it's got great reviews. I don't know what it's about outside of the fact that it's a sci-fi book. So we'll give it a go. It can't be that bad.

Can't be as bad as city in the city. So don't roll your eyes at me Slava.

Slava (03:16.974)
I will, I'll continue to roll my eyes indefinitely. This was my first time reading the book too, and I'm really glad Spencer suggested it. I tried reading The Martian by Weir a few months ago, maybe even a little bit longer now. And I really lost interest just after like a few pages, whatever, half a chapter, because I listened to the audio. And not that I thought it was a bad book, but I don't know, it just didn't capture me. But this one...

right from the get go was such a good book and I finished it really quickly. think it was under a week that I finished it. I was really engrossed in the story. I enjoyed it a lot. So very happy you suggested it, Spence.

Well, it's a short read too. Like if you're listening to this and you haven't read this book, it's not a long read compared to a bunch of other stuff we've read. It's 30 chapters and they go pretty quick. There's like two chapters that are longish, but everything else is like pretty quick chapters. And every chapter feels like it ends on a cliffhanger. So yeah, great book suggestion, Spencer. Really glad that we reading this.

Awesome, yeah, that's really cool to hear, so glad you guys enjoyed that. I think I read it like two times within a year because I liked it so much and I ended up buying a hard copy of the book. I normally do audible for everything, so.

paperback or like a physical hardcover book? Okay, all right. I was gonna be pretty impressed. know, like, buying hard copies now or hardback book hardcover. Whatever works.

Spenser (04:46.156)
Yeah, a paper bag.

Spenser (04:54.798)
Paperback words are hard some they are

Well, I do that too. bought real hardcovers of books that I've enjoyed throughout the years. Maybe some that have nostalgic value to me. bought hardcovers because then they last longer. Nostalgic Little Russian. I'm talking about Stephen King, but yes, those two.

books don't count lava.

Jonathan (05:15.278)
feel like most of the good cookbooks though are hardcover. Is that right?

Yeah, you're right. Most cookbooks that are good cookbooks are hardcover, but I think chefs and publishing houses that take themselves seriously and cooking seriously and want to produce a good product, they'll make it hardcover primarily because it's more durable. It looks nice. There's a selling value to that. But the bullshit cookbooks by like Rachel Ray's Minnesota casseroles or some nonsense like that, those are seven bucks a pop paperback, you know, somewhere in the back of the store.

And that's just a cash grab for people who kind of want to cook and don't know what they're doing. So they'll just drop 10 bucks just because they heard Rachel Ray on a morning show or something.

yes, the Rachael Ray morning show. Big fan. Or whatever.

But back into, back into this book, which is better than a cookbook, think, because nobody ever read a cookbook from A to Z from front cover to back and you know, four days like I did. I really enjoyed the hard science of it, Spence. You mentioned that you enjoy that too. Have you read any other science fiction books like this, or this is the first hard science book?

Spenser (06:28.14)
This is the first hard science book that I can remember reading. I've done some other space operas before. There's an author named John Scalzi and he does some space operas and I liked his stuff. But that's very much, I think more soft science fiction, but it was a very enjoyable, very enjoyable series. Old Man's War actually pretty good space, space opera there. So, so I think that's one of my only experiences with soft science fiction or space operas is John Scalzi. So as we continue to

Dive into project hill Mary here Slava do you want to maybe tell us a little bit about Andy we're you mentioned that you've read the Martian by him before so you had a little bit of experience with him but maybe want to tell us a little bit about him and maybe his idea for this book.

I'd love to. Andy Weir built a two decade career as a software engineer until the success of his first published novel, The Martian, allowed him to live out his dream of writing full time. He's a lifelong space nerd and a devoted hobbyist of such subject as relativistic physics, orbital mechanics, and the history of manned space flight. He also mixes Amine cocktail and lives in the good old state, the grand old state of California, where this was born out of

Was he wanted to make a successor, a spiritual successor to the Martian where the stakes are higher. He also wanted the protagonist to be juxtaposed to the protagonist of the Martian. The Martian protagonist, one thing that stands out is he swears a lot, whereas Rell and Grace doesn't. And that's because he's a teacher and he's learned to say poop and heck, holy cow, instead of the other equivalents of that. And that's how he started writing Project Hail Mary.

And he said the research he'd done for it outside of what he knows about these things, because he's an enthusiast of hard science fiction, physics, orbital mechanics, all that stuff. He did a lot of, I'm quoting Google research and talking to his scientist friends that he has in his Rolodex. So extensive research went into understanding astrophysics and engineering for the novel. So what we hear in a novel is.

Slava (08:42.304)
Literally hard science. Some of it is theoretical, but it's science. Weir emphasizes that he wants to use accurate science using real life physics and biology principles. So that's why he made Grace a biologist, microbiologist, and he wanted to introduce an intelligent alien species. Captain Rocky, as Jonathan affectionately calls him, who becomes Grace's unexpected ally.

I didn't call him that first. Grace called him that first. I'm just saying his name. Captain Rocky.

He called him Captain Rocky? Yeah. He might've. Did you? I did not. I just read the back cover. okay. I've read the front cover and the back cover. said. Hardcover. Yeah, exactly. So I'm going to read a paraphrased quote. Both. I'm going to read it. I want to read a paraphrased quote from Weir. It's a very different situation than the Martian.

Did you read the book?

Jonathan (09:27.293)
Hardcover.

Slava (09:45.12)
Also, Mark's personality is very blunt and he swears up a storm. In contrast, Ryland is actually a little naive at times. He's a good-hearted person who sometimes makes mistakes in assuming everyone else is. Never swears because he's a teacher. He's trained himself out of it. Well, generally the suspense in my novels comes from problems, of course, and problems not with an antagonist character, but with the nature or physics or science. That's...

Just kind of the general approach I do. And in this particular novel, the stakes are very, very high. In The Martian, it was Watney who wanted not to die in Artemis. It was Bashara, and some people were actively trying to kill her. Also, she was at risk of being deported to Earth. But it was still basically one person in trouble. In this one, I skipped a bunch of the intermediate steps. I went straight to all of humanity is in danger.

So you should care about what this guy is doing because quote, literally every human being is going to die if he fails. He wanted to explore themes of survival, sacrifice and the spirit of exploration.

That's one way to do a follow-up book going from your first book to your second book and your second book is, well, all of humanity's at risk. So you better care. I think he did a phenomenal job too, but it's just funny to hear him in his own words go, yeah, I've turned it from 10 to a hundred on a scale of one to 10. So strap in. Here we go.

Well, thanks Slava for your thoughts on Andy Weir. Jonathan, while we're on the topic, can you maybe talk about some of the common sci-fi tropes that we see in this book?

Jonathan (11:29.71)
Yeah, I'd love to. So some of the stuff we see in general sci-fi tropes are advanced technology where we have a bunch of future gadgets that we're not familiar with. One of those is traveling at the, I think it's 1.5G. I'm not as science first as Weir is, but you can just tell he's done the research. And I didn't need to go look these things up because with the authority that he was talking about it.

through the character, you're like, no, I know that this is factual. It's too specific to not be factual. That also gives credit to advanced technologies that he's using, even though they're theoretical, on top of the fact that sci-fi tropes often have space exploration. The last, what are they, what's that big quote? You know, the last uncharted territory or something like that. You guys know what quote I'm talking about? Final frontier. Yes.

Final Frontier.

Jonathan (12:29.378)
That's what I was trying to say. That quote. Thank you. What's that? John Calvin, right? Something like that.

Augustine actually.

thanks. So you've got advanced technologies, space exploration, first contact where humans are coming in contact with alien civilizations, or there's in general sci-fi tropes, there's alien invasion or survival of harsh environments if you're in a possible like different alien place or sci-fi post-apocalyptic world. And then there's the all normal first contact missions.

I want to just state something. This is not all of the tropes. There's not just six tropes. This is just six that stood out to me that I'm like, yeah, I remember these. But as for this book, we do see space exploration, advanced technology and first contact as three of the top ones that fall into how we wrote this book. So those are some of the common sci-fi tropes and also three that fit into this book, Spencer.

Thanks, Jonathan. Yeah, those are some of the things that I saw in this book as well. Another one that I saw was a, it's called a white room novel. And I think Weir uses this to introduce us to the character. He uses it to introduce us to the kind of the setting of the world. So what a white room novel, it typically refers to a literary genre or style characterized by a story that unfolds predominantly within a single enclosed and often austere setting.

Spenser (14:03.362)
which is metaphorically or literally described as a white room. The term derives from the concept of a minimalist neutral space where characters interact and the plot develops focusing more on psychological depth and dialogue rather than on elaborate settings or external action. So we're introduced to Rylan Grace through this white room novel, but I'm curious if you guys have ever read any other sort of white room novel stories.

For me, three jump out. They're all books that I read when I was young, like seventh, eighth, ninth grade. One of them even before I think. So Gary Paulson's Hatchet comes to mind where this 13 year old kid, Brian, survives a plane crash. Yeah, he's left alone in the Canadian wilderness and he has to gain survival skills. And in this he matures. This experience matures him because on the plane ride.

that in middle school or something like that.

Slava (14:58.498)
He is processing the fact that his parents are divorced and his mom had an affair. And then after he survives, he's supposed to, you know, come out when he does in the story with a new found patience, maturity, and a deeper understanding of himself and his parents. There's Jack Frost's book also somewhere from seventh or eighth grade that I read, To Build the Fire. It's also a tale of survival in the Yukon territory during the gold rush, the main

protagonist and the book ends up dying at the end because he freezes to death. And one that's a little out there is Stephen King's Gerald's game. And this is about a couple. It's really about a woman, but it starts out with a couple going on a vacation in nowhere, Maine, and they're supposed to play a little sex game. And so he ties her up. The husband ties up the wife and dies in the middle of the game.

And so she's left alone tied up to a bed and she has to sit there for days alone with her thoughts. King kind of goes through her traumatic memories, her childhood, and there's this ominous presence that she senses in the house, but she's all alone and she ends up surviving. But those three are the ones that came to me right away when Spencer asked us this question in preparation for the podcast. The first two came up right away. And as I thought about it, I'm like, wait a minute. There was this Jack Frost.

Then the third one.

And the third one where the guy dies. the first two that are kid- Well, the first two are not kid-friendly. I read them out of order.

Jonathan (16:29.058)
Kid-friendly.

Jonathan (16:32.866)
Yeah, I was thinking about the two wilderness survival ones being kid friendly and not this, not the Stephen King one. Not kid friendly, just in case you didn't get that. Slava told us that and I was like, I, I mean, I think it's a great concept, that King, King went with. I don't think I need to read it. I don't think it fits the brand. So, you know, well.

Not the student. No.

Slava (16:56.578)
Just skip the first two chapters and then you just have a woman tied up in a house, losing her mind slightly.

all right. Well, I guess if it's only two chapters, but I did want to say something with exploration books. I feel like that gets, that's become harder and harder because we continue to understand more and more of the world and the world itself has been fully explored far as we can tell. And if it hasn't, we've got for things like, like rural mountains in Iran or Iraq or something, right? Like they haven't fully charted that stuff necessarily because of the internal cavern systems, unless that's been updated since I looked at the

the world news, but it's harder and harder to write an exploration novel, I feel like, to feel real.

So Jonathan, is that maybe because we understand a little bit more science, so it's harder to write, you know, like hard science fiction? Or like what, why is it harder to write exploratory novels?

I think it's because, at least this is my perspective, right? I think it's because we have explored everything. Now granted, there are depths of the ocean we haven't touched yet, and there's space we haven't touched yet. I should be a little more specific. I think it's hard to write exploratory novels, not exploratory, exploration novels that are set on Earth. Exploration novels set on Earth and exploration novels in general. just think that...

Jonathan (18:20.012)
because the internet people believe that we've explored everything. People being like the general society, general zeitgeist, but more educated folks like these scientists understand that not everything has been fully explored. Does that make sense?

Yeah, I think so. don't have much experience with a white room novels per se. One book that I read, actually it was a series, it's called Pines by Blake Crouch. It's not necessarily a white room novel, but it's kind of got some of those tropes. But that's the only like, maybe real experience that I had with that sort of a setting. I enjoyed getting to know the character Rylan Grace through this setting. And it was definitely a cool experience that I enjoyed. I thought it was very, very well done.

But as we continue to get more into the book here, one thing that Weir does is he establishes a of a unique naming convention and some of the things that we see when Grace, because he doesn't know, because he's trying to figure out who he is and where he's at, some of the things that we see in the beginning of the novel is he names himself such names as Emperor Comatose and the great philosopher Pendulous because he

trying to figure out who he is and the computer keeps asking him for his name, but he doesn't know it. And I think because he is a junior high school teacher, he kind of has those silly names for himself and that he kind of uses. And this self-naming also establishes the naming motif alongside the naming of astrophage. He just kind of has these sort of clever ways of naming things or silly ways.

Slava, I'm curious, what do you think about the naming convention that that we're established is here in this novel?

Slava (20:05.742)
I like it. A blogger named Allison Stein says the following, names must be deliberate, memorable and distinct. Too many characters with similar names, even names that start with the same first letter confuse readers and names also need to make sense for the location, time and tone of the story. That's a lot that she says, but there's like two points in there that are applicable to this book. So working backwards, because it dovetails to what Spencer just said,

The naming conventions that Weir uses and subsequently that Grace uses set the tone for the story. Because he used these silly little names and silly analogies, that comes out of him being a middle school teacher, which is central to the story, central to his character. So the fact that he does that not only sets the tone for the story, but also is very much in line with who the character is.

and for them to be deliberate and distinct, I think is important. So the deliberate part is while primarily comic in effect, this is me looking at your notes, Spence, the jokes and the references to Western civilization, Greek and Roman traditions, power of learning, we are engages a sense of a civilizational scale of the dilemma that he faces and that humanity faces.

And this way the reader is pulled in and is then fully aware of what he calls the Petrova problem. The self naming also establishes this motif right? Alongside's grace naming of astrophage. That is part and parcel central to what we're trying to do through this character who is a middle school teacher. So all that to say, I thought that was very clever. I liked the way.

the naming conventions are used in this book. Because oftentimes, Jonathan, back me up here, authors miss this and it makes it hard not only to remember names, but kind of even to follow along because it's either seems perfunctory or doesn't even seem like there's a lot of thought went into it at all.

Jonathan (22:19.448)
I would love to back you up because I have complained about this before. I think it was Head Full of Ghosts where the names sound the same. And I might've also complained about this during It, but this is something I've told my co-author when we were writing our book is that names have to be distinct because otherwise the characters blend together when you're reading because there's so much to comprehend while you're reading about the world and what's going on and who's doing what. That if there's A, too many characters,

they sound like the same names, just like this woman said, then you leave your readers confused. And you're totally cutting your own legs out from underneath you because the whole point is that you're taking them on a journey of a story. And it's not like that book, I haven't read it, but Spencer told me about it, The Bobs? Is that the name of the book, Spencer? You know what I'm talking about?

Yeah, so the name of the first book is We Are Legion. I forget what the name of the series is, but if you look it up, the Baba verse is is kind of what he establishes as that series. Yeah, that's that's kind of a fun fun little series.

A lot of the characters there have the name Bob, right?

Yeah, so the main character's name is Bob and then the way the book works is like it's future iterations of himself, but then they name themselves differently because now they're their own distinct people without trying to get too much into it, but they all take on different names eventually.

Jonathan (23:45.248)
Okay. That's not the thing that I'm thinking of then. I'm thinking about Doug. The Dugs? Does this sound familiar? The Dugs. Anyway, when authors, I can't remember all the details, so it's getting away from my point. Authors have to use distinct characters. Put simply, I agree with her and I've been saying this for ages, I'm glad someone else said it. That's the simplest way to say this. Yeah. I didn't come with my oral thesis. I guess I left it in my other bag.

More specific to Spencer's question is, and correct me if I'm wrong Spencer, not just the comic relief or specific names he gives, but the connections to Western civilization and Greek and Roman traditions, like the power of learning. So there's a very specific thing that we're doing through Grace is the fact that Humanity is in the line, references to civilizations that have built

what we know on whose shoulders we stand. think that is something specific that we're wanting to do. And for grace in world, it's nostalgic, maybe the wrong word, but nostalgic in some sense, and a way to hold on, to kind of plant the humanity's flag in this universe saying, Hey, we are here to continue and live on.

So there's like a double thing that's going on here, a two-fold thing where Weir's doing what good writers are supposed to do. It creates comic relief for the reader. Grace is fulfilling his character role as a teacher, but also the overarching theme, if you will, or point that the author is trying to make is in world, this guy on a mission is referencing others who've came before him.

And then his love of learning and his love of exploration, which is also a thing that happens here in the real world for we're, know him as an author who loves this kind of stuff and things that is important for humanity. And we'll get into the themes in a later episode. So I won't front load it all, but how exploration is essential to humanity's survival.

Spenser (25:58.474)
I'm glad that that we're gave us memorable and unique names for the characters and and places because yeah I've also read books before where all the names sound similar and then I just confused so I did not experience that in this book and I enjoyed the little the humor aspect of it especially you know like in the beginning Emperor comatose just a fun way to get kind of set the tone of the story and just have have memorable characters so I also appreciated that

But I want to talk a little bit about some of the plot structures that we see. So one that stood out to me is the flashback structure. And throughout the novel, there are frequent flashbacks to Grace's life on Earth before the mission gradually revealing his background, expertise and personal motivations. And these flashbacks help provide context and depth to Grace's character. Have you guys read other flashback sort of novels? And did you like that? Do you like that kind of

structure for a book.

We have read books that had flashbacks in them, but never, well, I guess I can't say never. I can't think of one that used flashbacks as a pillar plot narrative, plot device, like this. And honestly, this is the cleanest. That's not true. We just read Name of the Wind. I'm a fool. Anyway, Name of the Wind uses it pretty heavily.

it's, it's a huge pillar. So I don't know what I'm talking about. This is fine. It's fine. Welcome to Spencer's podcast takeover. But what I was going to say is that a lot of times people use flashbacks poorly, but this feels even more organic and authentic because the character has amnesia. And so it's like, yeah, he would, it would be hard for him to remember. So that, guess, fitting the cog in the machine, I thought.

Jonathan (27:56.554)
Man, this is flawless. I was really impressed.

Yeah, me too. I liked it because it gave the character the ability to discover himself and what happened, why he's in this white room spaceship. And it also takes the reader along for the ride. The only other book that I think does this well and the only other book I remember doing flashbacks is Name of the Wind. I think Jonathan should read it. He probably will enjoy it. Patrick Rotfuss is the author. I don't know if you know him. He has this guy set up in an inn.

and he tells the story through flashbacks. Spencer, you know this book, right?

I am well acquainted with this book.

I think you and I both read it two or three times.

Spenser (28:42.432)
Yeah, I've read it

We'll get it on the schedule.

What do they do in that book, Slava? Wow. Wow. I have nothing to say to either of you. Jonathan put his foot in his mouth. Flashbacks are a name of the wind, which apparently I've never read.

I don't really have a lot of experience with flashback structure books. think the way of Kings is probably or Stormlight Archive where we see character growth through flashbacks from some of the main characters. And I think Sanderson does that really well. I mean, what doesn't he do well really?

but

Spenser (29:17.582)
Always bringing it back to Sanderson. But I think that's my only experience with flashback characters. And I think Sanderson does it well because we really see character development from where they were in the past to where they are now and how it relates. And I think Weird does that well here. But one of the other plot structures that I wanted to bring up is kind of the race against time plot structure. So I like this plot device because it kept me engaged in the story. I was...

I mean pretty much.

Spenser (29:47.246)
Constantly hooked. I felt like some of the chapter endings were always sort of these cliffhangers that kept me engaged. So I never wanted to stop listening or I never wanted to put the book down. That is something that I really enjoyed from this book. I'm curious what you guys thought about that specific plot structure. Do you like it? Did it keep you engaged? That sort of thing.

I have a favor to ask you. If you like what we're doing, the simplest way to support the show is to hit subscribe. In return, we'll keep leveling up, we'll listen to your feedback, and read authors that you suggest. Of course, we'll take side quests all along the way.

It did keep me engaged, but I'd say probably only 15 % because what was more pressing to me was his survival. So when he is first half of the book and he's eating food, I was like, man, food is a really great plot device to use when you're stranded in space. That's great. And then I did the quick math of like, okay, he's got two additional people's worth of food. That's good.

And then I was like, but how's he going to get home? This is like chapter seven or eight, like of 30, right? Like a third of the way through the book, maybe chapter 10, right? And I'm thinking, I don't know if he's going to get home. So to me it was less the race against time because I can't comprehend the, and I know he explained it to Rocky slash us. What was it the relative change in time when you're moving fast or at the speed of light where like you're moving quicker?

to get somewhere but time is still moving forward. Do you want to try to explain this, Spencer? Or are we just going to call it? We're just going call it.

Spenser (31:34.51)
You're just gonna do any better of a job, okay? I know I know what you're talking about, but trying to explain it. Yeah, it's it's a hard concept for me. Yeah

Yeah, yeah, I'm like, I know what he's talking about and I vaguely recall Einstein maybe talking about it.

Yeah, I read Ender's game and the sequel to that really deals with time dilation. Speaker for the dead. He uses time dilation in that. That's a big plot device.

No, speaking for the dead. for

Jonathan (32:14.062)
Time dilation. I haven't read that in ages. That's a good call. So time dilation, I don't fully understand. So because of the time dilation where he's like, it's 13 and a half years, I'm just like, So you're 27 years at least before you can supposedly come back and save earth. And honestly, this is a, I guess we'll call it a math problem. This is a math problem that I run regularly. So if I've got a party in the afternoon or the evening and it's an hour and a half away.

and I need to get up early, I will go, okay, do I even want to go hour and a half there, hour and a half back, three hours. Time there, probably want to spend two hours. So that's five hours of time and let's say it's seven o'clock already. So you're not getting there until 8.30. You want to spend two hours, then it's 10.30, then it's an hour and a half back. Now you're looking at midnight and I'm like, is it worth going because of this other thing that I have to do? Now, Grace didn't have something else to do.

necessarily, besides savor. But if you've got 13 and a half years out and 13 and a half years back, that's 27 years. So the second you get there and wake up, if you don't find the solution, you're like burning time basically because of how long it takes to get back. So I was thinking all this to say, long story long, all this to say, I liked that it was a plot device. It didn't keep me engaged in and of itself.

His survival was more pressing to me because I wasn't sure if he was going to make it back anyway. Does that make sense?

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, I think that's a great answer.

Jonathan (33:52.47)
I liked that it was there. I wanted it to be there, but to me it was more of a subplot rather than a main course.

Slava, I'm curious what your thoughts are on that. Did you like it? Did it keep you engaged? What are your thoughts about the Race Against Time plot device?

I loved it. I really, really loved it. It kept me engaged. The fact that there was always something to overcome, even after wins, there'd be like a step back because something went wrong two or three times where it was a big one. Right. The amoebas were eating all the astrophage and they got into the fuel tanks. And then when he realizes that Rocky's in trouble, and then when Rocky has to save.

Grace and then Grace comes too and he thinks Rocky might be dead. Those three stand out right away. But in other aspects of the story connected to your question, the race against time, it definitely kept me engaged. There was a sense of mystery, a sense of tension and it was constant, but it wasn't overdone. It felt realistic that if you're in space,

and this is the first time humans are this far away from home planet and there is something big at stake, the extension of humanity. The fact that they have to go fast, move fast, think on their feet and run into problems, that was executed well by Weir. And the whole story is a race against time. That is explained to us by Stratt. But on the spaceship, on the Hail Mary, the work that both Rocky and Grace have to do,

Slava (35:34.946)
There's a race against time within a race against time, if I could word it that way. And that was wonderfully, wonderfully done. I loved it. There's an overarching theme of race against time with Stratt explaining the importance of the project Hail Mary. And then on the ship, humanity's first venture this far away from earth sets up attention within attention. Him having to do experiments and failing.

And it was fluid. was done smoothly. And so it kept me engaged and it wasn't overdone. I was hooked.

Yeah, the tension, the tension, I didn't notice until you mentioned it because there's the tension of the being away from earth. And then the tension in the present conflict that, uh, that was not as clear to me until you mentioned it. I like that as well. Cause the second tension I was tied to the second tension kept my attention. I don't know another word to use here. So we're just going to keep using the word back to you, Spencer.

Yeah, those are some good points Slava. I didn't really notice the tension within attention narrative until you kind of pointed that out there. You know, especially with him being away from earth and also having to, you know, perform to kind of save his own life. Yeah, that was really good. But you mentioned Stratt and I wanted to kind of bring up her as a character because she's one of the pivotal players in this mission that Grace is on.

And she does some things, well, she's appointed a role in which she has ultimate authority basically over everything. But one thing that Weir does is he resists easy moral answers with her. And she's obviously got this immense weight on her as she has to try to figure out what to do, you know, to save earth. And some of the things that she does are probably morally questionable. So I wanted to ask you.

Spenser (37:37.454)
Maybe Jonathan, you can lead this one off. What did you think of her as a character and would you maybe have done some of the things that she does in order to try to save Earth? Maybe like it ends justifies the means of tension that she has to deal with here.

Are you putting me into an ethical dilemma, Spencer? Okay, against my will at that, very fun. Well, what did I think about her character? I thought she was an alien. I was like, this is a sci-fi book. She has too much power. She knows too much of what's going on. And so in our little group chat while I was reading it, I was like, she's going to be an alien. There's like a reveal. There's like something out there that

Yes, of course.

Jonathan (38:24.042)
needed to get done, she needed humans for, and she was going to be this alien. I was wrong and I was right. There was something out there. His name was Captain Rocky. As for her to stay on topic, would I in that situation do similar? Yeah, probably. If I understood science better and was put into a position like that, I most likely would make the same decisions and go, no.

We don't have time for your stupid little lawsuits and your stupid little processes. It's like if the whole world doesn't come together and commit resources to this, we're all going to be dead. I don't think I would have done it as well as her. I can be brash, but I'm not, I'm commanding. I'm not that commanding. Although maybe I would have developed it if I was in that situation. So this is hard to say, but I think she did what was right in terms of the story and the problem at hand.

And the problem with doing what's right is the method to get there. And this is a super slippery slope. The method to get there, preferably is more ethical, but yeah, nobody should have supreme power. Although they did, they did limit her power a little bit by saying like, she can basically do anything but fire weapons. I don't know. I kind of feel like that was a good comment in the story to say like, Hey, she's got unlimited power except for.

She's not allowed to do anything militarily, which was kind of nice. So that's my answer. Slava, what do you think about Stratt as a character and the ethical dilemma that Spencer just put me in?

I love Stratt. Stratt was great. If I was in her situation, I think I would do the same thing. I liked her as a character. I liked her dedication to the project and lack of sentimentality. And I think she's sort of a foil to Grace. I mentioned him being a little naive, which is something that came out of some of the research and interviews that I watched and research that I did. So Grace is meant to be a little bit naive. That's not an insult to the character. It's just the character as written by the author. So Stratt.

Slava (40:31.702)
is a bit of a foil to him, but the way she goes about doing things, I think is the only way to do it when you're facing the situation that humanity is facing in this book. Now there's times where we are shows how this could be a detriment and how you can take it too far when she is refusing the guards in the prison to let her be searched. Okay. Well here just stop. Yeah. I know you're doing everything you can.

And you will do anything within your power, which is a lot to get this done because you see the importance of saving humanity and the importance of Project Hail Mary succeeding. But even this can be taken too far. And that's shown in the prison scene. It's shown kind of in the scene in the courtroom. Although I think that's more revelatory in nature that reveals how strong and dedicated and maybe even stubborn Strat is.

that these people are like trying to sue her for the IP.

Yeah, that one seemed super relevant, but I can agree with you. The guard one was like, okay, come on, take the things out of your pockets.

is not about making a buck, dude. You're all gonna be dead. You're not gonna enjoy the money. These guys that are going to die, your IP is gonna be floating through space for all eternity.

Spenser (41:55.79)
Yeah, for sure. Slava, you can you remind us what a foil is? I'm super familiar with that term.

A foil acts as a foil to the protagonist. They are the ones who put obstacles in front of the protagonist or they juxtaposed to show the differences between one type of character and another. We discussed this in detail when we did our Name of the Wind episode. Ambrose was a foil to Quoth. And in that book it shows the stark difference in a foil. they are characteristic. Them as a character in world.

Here, I think that is happening too, but there's also this almost secondary or even tertiary theme going on where Stratt is constantly annoying Grace. She's literally, here quotes, foiling some of his assumptions, some of his efforts, all that stuff. So there's a twofold thing here going on.

Two foil thing, Slava, is that what you said?

a two foil thing, yes. Well played.

Jonathan (43:03.886)
Hopefully the audience thinks that too.

And one more thing, she is unbothered by being disliked. She has a mission to do where we see later on, this is a juxtaposition part of the foil. see later on, Grace, the protagonist, he likes being liked and he's comfortable with his kids because he doesn't want to get hurt again. And his kids like him, unlike some of his colleagues in the scientific community. And he doesn't want to do everything he can to get

project Hail Mary off ground and successful where she is like, I don't care what I do. I will do everything within my power to get this going. That's one thing I really like about Stratt. She's like, we got shit to do and we're going to do it. Now we can sit here for another three hours discussing the morality or the ethical consequences of her actions. And this is what we're doing. And I'm doing everything I can with the situation. I'm doing everything I can.

with the tools that I have.

Yeah, yeah, I really like that because we see Stratas sort of this, like you said, like a foil to grace, because this book doesn't really have a traditional antagonist, I think, like we normally see in other books where there's not like a bad guy per se, where you have to fight against. Bad guy in this book, in a sense, is the astrophage. So we kind of see this man versus nature plot point. So I like that you...

Spenser (44:35.586)
bring up that strat is sort of this maybe opposite almost in a sense to grace. So Slava, can you talk to us a little bit about the man versus nature plot point?

This is a little different than the books I mentioned earlier for white room genres and they all have the same theme. So there's a rhyme and reason why I picked them. So you have Hatchet, you have the Jack Frost story. Those are man against nature. You have Gerald's Game, which I mentioned, which is woman against woman, man against man. She is alone with her thoughts and her trauma and unhappy marriage and she's tied up and she has to get out.

because she's also alone somewhere in the backwoods of Maine. Here, there is more at stake. There's humanity against astrophage. Humanity itself, the whole world is facing extinction level event. You have Grace, who is sent in a Hail Mary. Now, he's supposed to save humanity. And he has his own man against man and man against nature.

themes that are unfolding. has to figure out how to stop astrophage. has to figure out how that amoeba from Tal Setti is going to help him kill off enough astrophage at home to save his planet. You have him battling with himself, discovering that he's actually a coward and he didn't volunteer as a hero to save the world. He had to be drugged to do it. And we can get into that a little later because that goes back to Strats doing anything she can.

and anything she wants and everything that is within her power to save humanity. So there's a uniqueness to the story that we don't find in other man against nature or man against man, white room genre. There is so much more. Weir says that this is him turning up the Martian to a hundred. Maybe Jonathan said that, but that Jonathan paraphrased that Weir said, this is him turning up.

Slava (46:39.502)
What's happening in Artemis, what happened in the Martian, Martian specifically up to 111, 111. That I found captivating. That's another reason why this book was a page turner for me. The mystery and the tension I mentioned earlier, it sets grace, puts grace, let me put it this way, puts grace into a situation unlike other man against nature books that I've read.

Just one minor nit, Slava. I believe that it's not man against man, it's man against self.

OK, then again self.

because i believe that the category for man against man is one character versus another character

Not a nit, good correction. The fact that Astrophage is not an intelligent being and the alien that we meet who is an intelligent being is not the antagonist, is not evil. Grace and Rocky have to work together and the intelligent alien being that Rocky discovers is Grace and Grace discovers Rocky. So both, both aliens to each other are friendly. And I think they'll be

Slava (47:49.492)
more closer to the truth than other science fiction novels where aliens come in and they want to kill us. I want to mention that because that's the other reason why this was so fascinating to me is the alien is a friend. I didn't want to leave that point without me mentioning it.

So I like that too about astrophage being sort of the, you know, man versus nature. And it's not really an intelligent species per se. It's just this amoeba doing its thing and you have to figure out, or Grace has to figure out rather how to defeat this, stop it from continuing to destroy humanity in a sense. So Jonathan, I'm curious as to what your thoughts are on this man versus nature plot, because you know, as we mentioned, astrophage isn't your typical antagonist. It's this.

unintelligent species, but it's just doing its thing. How did you like that as as like an antagonist or as the sort of thing that grace has to overcome?

I liked it a lot. I think that most books do themselves a disservice by not having some sort of man versus self element that is put pressure on by something like an external man versus nature. Not that every book has a man versus nature, like whenever a book uses an antagonist, that antagonist should put pressure on the internal workings of the character. And I think that part of the reason a lot of books fall flat is that

The internal character is A, not revealed and B, there's no pressure on them. It doesn't mean they have to change for the better, but like there should be pressure on them regardless because that's what astrophage does to grace. Like it first forces him to leave his students and then it forces him to go into space and then it forces him to try to find an answer. All the while in each leg of that race, he has to engage with man versus self and confront.

Jonathan (49:41.74)
The fact that he's a coward confront the fact that he doesn't want to die, confront the fact that he has to save humanity, confront the fact that he did it unwillingly, confront the fact that he doesn't know what to do, confront the fact that he has amnesia, confront the fact that he now is meeting a new life form alien for the first time and he has to try to communicate with. It was a problem that was a universe problem or I guess solar system to be more correct. Multi-solar system problem.

that it turns out is not just a problem for him. And I think it did a really good job of being a cohesive, like you said, bad guy for us to rally against to go, yeah, I hope they find an answer in the midst of the present troubles that they deal with of doing the research, figuring out what the possible solutions would be and so on.

Yeah, those are some great points. Maslava, one thing that you mentioned was you liked the fact that Rocky wasn't this bad guy either. He was an alien that we meet, his first contact, and it's not this antagonist. It's both Rocky and Grace are there for the same reasons. They are forced to work together. So we see this theme of cultural relativism as Grace tries to work together with Rocky.

I appreciate that because in most other science fiction novels, the aliens that we met are always an enemy and humanity that just has to try to save themselves from the aliens. In this case, we see Grace working with Rocky to defeat this other organism and Grace goes into it with openness and he engages in good faith with Rocky to work to save humanity and for Rocky to save his people.

I think the theme of cultural relativism plays a role in facilitating collaboration, successful collaboration between two alien species, Grace the human, Rocky the spider dog, as he's described by Grace. I think that is done well for the reasons I just mentioned and the reasons you just mentioned. It is unique. It's not a trope. It sets up an ally for Grace because he's the protagonist, it's

Slava (51:57.268)
Grace is also an ally to Rocky. Weir expands this idea, I think, of cultural relativism that can exist across species and that even survival is not separate from the survival of other life on earth. He does that well, I think, to the foil comment. Strat is shown to give little consideration to cultural relativism because she doesn't have any sentiments. She's like, we're going to do this no matter what. She's very pragmatic.

where Grace is shown to have a lot of affection towards it. Even the way he first interacts with Rocky, he plays this game of of catch, right? Where they do pantomime, they send each other objects, and he, in his pursuit of knowledge, puts Astrophage and his mission on Hail Mary to the side for a moment to interact with this alien, and it turns out to be the right thing.

Where Stratt in the situation probably would have just ignored the alien and went to the next step on the list of things that Grace had to do on the project, right? So Weir does a good job weaving this theme into the story where it's important for collaboration and success of both species to adhere to cultural relativism.

Yeah, absolutely. Those are some great points, Slava. And I really appreciate how much effort Weir puts into talking about cultural relativism. And I think that's necessary in our world today because I think we see a lot of division in our country, in our world. And so I like the idea that Grace is open to another alien species, even though it could potentially be a huge threat to him. So I want to talk a little bit about some themes or maybe other literary devices that you guys saw in this book. What's something that stood out to you?

Yeah, some of the literary themes that stood out in Project Calamari itself are scientific exposition, which we talked about pretty well at the moment. Cliffhangers at the end of chapters, which I'll get into in a second. Humor, even though the stakes are serious. Themes, specifically survival and isolation among others that Slavo will get into. And symbolism. So those are some of the literary devices. We don't have time for all of them.

Jonathan (54:19.672)
We've already tackled scientific exposition. I'm going to dive into cliffhangers real quick and then toss it over to Slava to talk about some of these as well. In terms of cliffhangers, I haven't read a book in a while where the chapter ends and you go, I can't put the book down. I need to read more. I was thinking about this, preparing for this episode and going, when is the last time that a book required my attention? Like demanded, hey.

It's a cliffhanger. know, even when Grace pulls up and he's like, it's an alien ship. And then the chapter ends and you're like, well, I can't put the book down now. I don't know when you're, when you're first reading it, right? I can't put the book down now. I don't know what's going to happen. Is it a good alien? Is it a bad alien? Like, is he going to get eaten? Like there's another half of the book. So don't know if that would work out well, unless we're going to be in a stomach. Like there's just too many questions. so curiosity.

The beautiful thing about cliffhangers is the curiosity that you're left with, where you have to measure yourself and go, can I withstand the curiosity right now and go do whatever else I'm actually supposed to be doing? Or do I need to just keep reading? I had to keep reading. I couldn't stop reading. had to stop doing other things. It was not a really productive week. No, I'm pro cliffhanger. I say that it should be.

brought back, because I feel like when we were kids we had more books that had cliffhangers on them. TV shows too. Like, stay tuned for next time when we'll find out if Sally does roll down the hill with Jack and Jill. Da da da da, whatever, you know. It's a great example, I know. Slava, what about you? What literary devices stood out to you?

Well, I like the humor, despite serious stakes. Novel incorporates humor. It's often done through Grace's internal monologue. I agree with Spencer. This adds a layer of relatability and levity to the story. Weir shows us that Grace's sarcasm is a coping mechanism. I identify with that because jokes and sarcasm are my coping mechanism. And this is like an unrelenting focus on his mission to save humanity.

Slava (56:39.326)
is psychologically unbearable. So it's understandable that grace will go from breaking down and sobbing to making stupid jokes or naming himself emperor comatose. All those things are very normal to me. That's why going back to our fairy conversation, that's why I like Siri so much from Warbreaker. That's how I cope with things, how I deal with stressful situation.

is to bring a little levity to it. So that, wonderfully done. It's funny. And it made me pause and think numerous times. Why is this guy using soft language, not swearing? He only says a swear once. And that's when he discovers something incredible. And he says, holy shit. Everything else is always toned down. And so that piqued my interest. That kept me.

hooked in the book, I'm like, who's this guy? Then, he's a teacher and that's emphasized more and more. that's why he's not swearing. But the humor is still done so well. Now that I'm saying I need swear words for humor to be effective, but I'm saying everything has like a connection to it. And even his coping mechanism has a connection to the themes that we mentioned, specifically survival, sacrifice, survival, teleterian good.

You know, you see the sacrifice to save Rocky and then to save Rocky again when he puts his life on the line, knowing he might never come back to earth and goes to save Rocky. then at the book, that is all tied together. But to talk specifically about survival, I would say that's like the first and foremost of the narrative in Project Hail Mary is survival of humanity, survival of the character Grace.

survival of his ally Rocky. If I read Weir correctly, he has a pretty optimistic view of survival. And that goes into the ingenuity part of Spencer's notes here, where everybody involved is a scientist, is smart, they're all committed. They all go above and beyond and work really, really hard to make sure that Project Hail Mary is a success.

Slava (59:07.67)
Grace doing all the experiments, him and Rocky working together, that's the whole cultural relativism, all of it's tied together so well. And at times, Grace's instinct for short-term survival are placed in direct conflict with the survival of the entire human race, forcing him to decide whose survival is more important. And that helps him grow. That tension, that setup, that foil to use that

term with a small F helps the character grow and rear along for the ride. So just as we've fanboyed out about Sanderson and King in the book, It and Rodfuss, some authors just have an ability to tie things together. all of those authors are different. They write for different genres. They have different strengths and weaknesses. Here specifically, Weir ties his themes together so well where the humor,

And how he deals with the survival is tied well together. The cliffhangers as he's thrown into a situation where he has to be on his game, ingenuity, has to use his ingenuity. That is fattened up with the scientific exposition, the fact that hard science is used. And I just want to give one quick throwback to our conversation there and give a bit of a harder.

More specific definition is hard science fiction is a sub genre of science fiction that emphasizes scientific accuracy and precise technical detail as part of its world building. So we are here pulls it all together. And here we are on side quest talking about what five different literary devices. I'm going to use that term again, tension with intention. As I mentioned, minutes ago, he's able to nest these things together.

and create a wonderful story that neither of us could put down. You, and you, Jonathan, I read it less than a week. I just powered it through this book because everything was bowing together so well. Yeah.

Jonathan (01:01:15.136)
It was great. I'm really glad that you made this choice, Spencer.

So glad.

Yeah, thanks. was a little hesitant about it at first because it's maybe a bit of a deviation from the traditional fantasy that you guys have been doing a lot. So yeah, really, really glad you guys enjoyed it. Jonathan, one thing that I wanted to ask you is we see, well, to set this up, we see Grace encounter Rocky while he's eating. And for the Iridians, eating is something that you do alone because it's a very, it's like a gross

thing that you have to do, it's, yeah, they don't, they want to be alone because it's gross and they don't want other people to see it. And that was kind of interesting to me because in human culture, food and eating is such a huge part of our culture and every culture has their own way of doing it, but it's hugely important. And so I'm curious as what your experience has been with meals and how that contrasts Rocky's culture.

Good question. So I'm Jewish. We love to eat. We have literal holidays around eating. It's really great. They tried to kill us. We survived. Let's eat. If we have a holiday, we're going to eat anyway. It's just, it's the best of all worlds. We also have once a week, somebody called Shabbat where we get together and we eat. So we're just always eating. And for us, for me, eating is meant to be a communal thing. It's meant to be shared. It's meant to be done with others. And.

Jonathan (01:02:48.96)
So definitely not on the rocky side, although people might say that they want me to eat in a different room because of how I do eat and how messy it gets. But that's on them. That's not on me. I'm here to eat and enjoy myself. In fact, of, some of, not some of, half the memories Slava and I have together prior to the podcast we're eating over a nice meal and a whiskey and a cigar and sharing and.

Being told a stupid joke about strawberries. Don't ask him. He'll waste 25 minutes of your time. I'm serious. Don't ask him. So I think that one of the beautiful parts about being human is that every culture that I can think of sees eating as something that's supposed to be done in community. Not supposed to be, but like is primarily done in community. Even if that's just your personal family. But in the West here, we have.

reduced that to individualism. We're always on the go. Well, I'm just going eat something quick. You know, let me microwave something. What have you. So I definitely felt the contrast when it's like, this other creature, their culture says don't watch me while I eat, but do watch me while I sleep. And it's like, well, that's interesting because here it'd be like, it's really weird if you're watching me while I sleep. If you walk in.

and I'm sleeping and then I wake up and you're still there? It's really weird, Spencer. Stop it. Don't do that.

Sorry, I thought everyone liked that. was my bad.

Jonathan (01:04:26.678)
No, you've read this book too many times, I promise. You watch sleep? You watch sleep? No, no. Yeah, does that kind of answer the question?

Yeah, I liked what you brought up about how our Western culture tends to reduce eating to this sort of individualistic thing that I have to do just in order to survive, in order to keep going. At least here in the West, it seems to have been very reduced. So I liked what you pointed out how you related that to Rocky and in his culture.

to jump in here for a second, because as somebody who enjoys cooking and enjoys cooking for people and finds a lot of comfort and solace in eating with people, serving people food, having them over at my house, I found the food themes in this book very interesting. Food is the source of both worry and comfort for Grace, because he likes to eat too and he describes

some of this to Rocky and Rocky eats in a way where nobody wants to watch that, not even Rocky. And we have Stratt telling Grace that food and the consumption of it is been the source of human endeavors up until the industrial revolution, right? And she says, when astrophage eats half the sun and everybody dies, those who are left over, well, not everybody dies, a lot of people will die and those who are left over,

will be consumed by this notion again, this desire to find food and that will lead to more wars and that will lead to more stress. And then the contrast with the Iridian attitude towards food, it's purely functional and there's a lot of layers to that because to what Spencer just said, to Jonathan, to my views of food, different cultures, Jewish versus more strictly Western American views,

Slava (01:06:19.736)
There's this setup again, there's this nesting that Weird does with food here because then you have the worry part of Grace where he doesn't have enough food to get back and he's very worried about that. And even though the coma slurge is not that bad, there's not enough of it left. So it's snuck in, but it doesn't kind of hang on the side where it's merely tangential to the story. Again, Weird.

has a knack for weaving things in. And I think, I think it's pretty great through food, we are aligns notions of pleasure, not only with cultural norms, but with also with biological necessity. And then he uses this tension to emphasize that cultural differences are deeper than, you know, mere preference and they're deserving of respect. Even when grace pushes Rocky.

to let him watch him eat and Rocky does what he does. You know, for the audience, opens up his stomach, inserts food into it. You can see his insides closes his stomach and then promptly falls asleep for three hours. So again, great nesting of themes and symbolism and all sorts of stuff. Words, right? But Weird does a wonderful job here.

Yeah, absolutely Slava. We're does an excellent job at weaving all these things together. for someone who hasn't wrote a ton of books, he's definitely established himself as a fantastic author. And yeah, I'm looking forward to hopefully reading more books that he produces in the future. But why don't we wrap up this episode? So we've talked about some themes, some literary devices, talked a little bit about strat and morality choices.

And so join us next time as we continue talking about the second half of Project Hail Mary.

Jonathan (01:08:18.89)
and take a moment and rate the show on your favorite podcast platform and share it with a book-loving friend. We'll see you next time on SideQuest.

Well, you made it this far. Rate the show.

Why not go a step further? It helps more than you think.