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Green Shoots & Big Shifts is hosted by Reetu Gupta, who started the show to have open, hopeful conversations about what it really takes to make sustainability part of how we live, lead, and work.
Each week, she talks with people doing innovative, meaningful work, turning ideas into action. From startup founders and corporate change-makers to community leaders - reimagining how business, society, and the planet can thrive together.
These are stories about innovation, collaboration, possibility, and the everyday shifts that move us toward a more abundant and resilient future.
you're listening to Green Shoots and Big Shifts
the show that spotlights the people and ideas
transforming our world for the better
I'm your host Reetu Gupta
in every episode
I'll be talking with innovators and trailblazers
who are reimagining our relationship with our planet
earth whether it's a small spark of innovation
or a sweeping shift in how we live and work
we'll explore the stories that give us hope
and the actions making a difference
together we are planting seeds of change
and driving big shifts for a healthier
abundant sustainable future
hi welcome
everybody
to this next episode of green shoots and big shifts
I'm very excited today
to have Todd Thomas on the episode
and he is the CEO and founder of woodchuck
so welcome welcome Todd
how are you great
thanks so much for having me on
of course so
just to get us started can you share your journey
your background
your story to starting and founding woodchuck
was there a aha moment that LED you to
to start the company well
the the Genesis of woodchuck
really starts with North Star Clean Energy
North Star Clean Energy
is the renewable energy arm of the public utility
for the state of Michigan
they have three bioenergy facilities
in the state of Michigan
that can burn biomass for renewable energy
their challenge was they didn't have enough biomass
so they were forced to augment their fuel supply
with petroleum products and specifically
they used chopped up tires
a pretty dirty nasty fuel augmentation
so they really wanted to get off that immediately
additionally they thought
they needed to double
their energy capacity over the next 10 years
so they were looking for a solution that would
catch them up immediately
and grow with them and double their energy capacity
over the next 10 years
so they really wanted a net new source of feedstock
traditionally when people think about biomass
they think about forestry or pulp and paper
or agriculture or landscaping
but no one has ever really looked at construction waste
or manufacturing waste so our idea was
our hypothesis was
that there's a massive supply of wood waste
in construction and manufacturing
and if we could tap into that supply
and divert wood out of that waste stream
it would be a fantastic
reliable source of feedstock for renewable energy
so as we did our due diligence and did our research
we found that last year in the United States
we sent 42 million tons of wood
from construction sites to landfills
we just buried it wow
wow so a
a a huge source of valuable material
and we were just burying it
and if you kind of look even wider at waste in general
in the United States
we pay $2 to bury $1 worth of resources
on the whole scale last year
the United States spent $2 billion
to bury $1 billion worth of resources in landfills
so just a huge waste so we have
we have these two huge global problems right
we have way too much waste
and we have just a rapidly growing need for more energy
so woodchuck is really kind of an elegant solution
we just we tie the two together
so we divert waste we divert wood
specifically to make sure it doesn't go to landfills
reducing waste and then turning that into energy
so we're reducing waste increasing energy
it works really well yeah
that sounds amazing and I did not know that
it takes $2
for every dollar of waste to be buried underground
and then it has all the other effects on our land
on our health etcetera
so that those
we are not even talking about those those costs yet
so curious like you talked about diverting wood
wood waste where
where do you get the waste
like how do you procure it
yeah how does that work
so specifically we are working
with construction and manufacturing companies
and right now we're really
we have a lot of momentum in the AI
data center space and EV battery factory space
so these are huge construction sites
um and it's
it's it's all new build and um
whenever you build something new
there's a lot of wood waste
and particularly with these high tech construction jobs
data centers and EV battery factories
because all the high tech equipment that's going to be
installed in these buildings
it arrives on site in six sided hardwood custom pallets
and inside of those
it's filled with cardboard and plastic
and right now today
they unpackage those servers or they unpackage the GPUs
and then all of that material goes to the landfill
but it's all recoverable
we can take all of that wood and turn it into energy
we can take the cardboard and the plastic
and we can recycle it so
our goal is to make sure that
none of that material goes to a landfill
we can turn it all into a a second purpose
very very interesting
you touched upon data centers
so I have to ask you this question
and since you're working with them
I was curious like you know
with with the rise in AI
a lot of data centers are being built locally
even even in the US
and there is some apprehension from communities
that it will take a lot of resources
and may not be good for for the local community
what are some of the challenges that you've heard
or seen
and how how maybe maybe the approach you are taking
how does how can we reduce the impact
and actually make these data centers
beneficial for the communities
yeah that's a great question
and that's a really hot topic right now
because you're right there are
there are a lot of communities that are
that are pushing back
and a lot of people are talking about this
so Joanne Garvin wrote the Microsoft book on innovation
and her her approach
is don't say no
say yes if and I really love that approach
and I think every community should take that on
like our our knee jerk reaction shouldn't be no
because a data center done well
should bring net benefit to your community
but communities are right
if they aren't done well there
there can be negative impacts
and there's a couple of you know
important topics um
important questions that communities should ask
so communities should go to the developer
of the data center and they should have an open
transparent discussion
and the top couple of questions really are around water
energy and the tax structure
so the water
everybody talks about the water from the data centers
the biggest use of water is in cooling
all of that electronic equipment
keeping it cool so it can run
evaporative
cooling systems do use a massive amount of water
but there's an easy fix to that
you can use a closed loop water system
and you can use a heat recapture system
so you can really limit the amount of water
now you can use a minimal amount of water
so that's a solvable problem
but the communities need to ask about that
and they need to say yes
you can build the data center
if you use a closed loop
cooling system with heat recapture
and then we can use that heat for something
like heating local businesses
heating the local schools
reuse that heat for something else
the next big question is around the energy
how is the data center going to be powered
and I think there's a lot of things that the community
wants to agree upon
around the energy use and I think the key thing is
you don't want the AI
data center to be a passive consumer of energy
on your grid
you want that data center to be an active participant
in the grid and what I mean by that is
the data center can produce its own energy
the data center can build a solar farm or a wind farm
or bio energy or liquid natural gas
there's a lot of different ways that a
a data center can generate power
and then you want it to be part of the grid
so that it can also participate in grid management
and demand capacity response
so imagine a scenario where it's
it's late in the summer and it's a really hot day
and all the local houses need to crank up their AC
there's a big surge in
and power needed in the local community
well during that demand surge for the local community
the data center can reduce its power use
or increase the amount of excess power
that it's feeding back to the grid
so it really becomes an active part of the grid
kind of like a distributed power system
where the AI
data center is an integrated piece of that
and that type of system done well
the data center can literally help reduce
local electricity bills so that can be a positive
the third big thing is taxes
a huge new you know
10 billion dollar data center
should be able to generate a lot of new taxes
for that local community
which can help improve the infrastructure
improve public transportation
improve the school there
actually was a great article that I was just reading
last week
a new data center went in in a community in Missouri
and the data center was generating a ton of tax revenue
and all the teachers were getting a big bonus
at the end of the year I mean
what a fantastic outcome right
all the school teachers getting a bonus
that's that's fantastic
so when you're looking at these AI data centers
those are really the big topics water
energy taxes
if you do those things right
a data center done well
should be a net benefit for your community
and I think we're starting to see
you know AI
data centers are aware of these community sentiment
and they want to be responsive and they
they want community support and it can be done
so people like Joanne Garvin
that wrote the Microsoft book
she's got a great template
or a playbook that you can follow
Aaron Brockovich is getting a lot of press these days
cause she's jumping into this conversation
but I think the media is kind of being sensational
there they're like
oh Aaron Brockovich is taking on the local utilities
but if you actually read what she's saying
what she's saying is
let's have an open and transparent conversation
about these things
which is exactly what I'm suggesting as well
which is yes
let's talk about water let's talk about energy
let's talk about the taxes
and let's make sure
that this is a net benefit for the local community
yeah I love that
like I love the last point you made about talking
and getting community voice in
and you know
just going back to the topic of sustainability
it is like there's so much that needs to be done
but involving having a dialogue
and not saying that that position is bad
or this position good and actually having the dialogue
and including all the stakeholders
we can we can create solutions that are very beneficial
like what you're doing at woodchuck
so coming back to I'm just curious
like looks like you've been working
um
or at least have been talking to some AI data centers
and then you're also working with Northstar
Clean Energy
have you had any projects where you're working with
like large data centers
are one of the AI providers for their energy needs
we are we have a number of data center projects
a number of EV battery factory projects
we actually we just wrapped up a project for Ford
Ford built a new EV battery factory in Marshall
Michigan and we did the waste diversion on that project
and it went really well we diverted 10,000 tons of wood
so instead of sending that to landfills
we diverted it for energy
we delivered all of that wood to North Star
Clean Energy that used it to generate
10,000 megawatts of renewable energy to uh
to power local businesses and and
and houses in Michigan so it was a huge success
the other big benefit is
because we're taking what used to be waste
what you used to pay someone to bury in landfills
and we're turning it into a valuable resource
we drive considerable savings
back to the general contractor
so on that particular project
we generated 10,000 megawatts of clean energy
and we reduced the contractor's cost by $1.6 million
so really a win win less waste
more energy and a huge cost savings
on the construction of that facility
that's amazing that's really
really amazing there's value creation
I love that
have you seen any projects like where it has been
has elements of circular economy
like you are able to collect the waste
and it's used on on site by them as well for energy
actually we're just launching a new project
we're just getting started
that's has a great circular story
that we're really excited about
this will be a Google data center
and on this particular project
we are taking all of the wood waste
and we are operating on site
and converting that wood waste into biochar
and then all of that biochar
is going to be used as a cement additive
and added directly into the cement in the project
so all of the new slabs that they're going to pour
on the project will be embedded with
with the biochar so all of the wood waste
none of it's gonna leave site
but it's gonna be converted from wood waste
into biochar into cement additive
and then added to that cement
and biochar has a really positive impact on cement
it cures faster it cures harder
and all of the carbon is then permanently captured
in the cement so it's really a
a fantastic little circular economy
right on that single data center site
so we're really excited about that one
that is really exciting
and it looks like you are using the wood waste
beyond electricity production
for other uses like this
this biochar are the other innovations that are coming
down the pike with
with the wood waste
looks like you're doing energy biochar
anything that's not like a secret
well that's the beauty of of wood and honestly
the beauty of AI wood is a very versatile material
it can be used in so many different ways
and AI really helps us to make sure that we are using
our wood for its highest best use
and what I mean by that is specifically
we use image recognition
or some people call it computer vision
and the beauty of that is you can
teach your algorithms to identify things
that we can't see with our own eyes right
if I have a 2 by 4 and it is uh
it it it has fire retardant in it
I can't see that with my naked human eye
you can't see it maybe it has preservatives in it
I can't see that either
but we can teach AI to recognize that
and so as we're processing wood
if we have wood that has permanent contaminants
like fire retardant or preservatives in it
we can AI will identify for that for us
and we can segregate it from the other wood
at the end of the day
we have some wood that's super clean
and we can use that for re manufacturing
so it can be turned into new particle board
or new press board or new plywood
and then the carbon is permanently captured
in whatever the new product is
either new construction or new furniture manufacturing
that's great
a lot of our wood right now goes to energy production
so we're producing you know renewable energy
but sometimes
some of these wood that has more contaminants in it
it can't be used for remanufacturing
it can't be used for energy
but we still don't want it to go to landfill
so we're still gonna find another use for it
so we will continue to process that
and we'll use it for various industrial products
like fillers and solidifiers and toppers
so any wood that we collect
we will make sure that it gets used
for a second purpose and the AI
helps us to make sure that we use it to its highest
best purpose whatever that may be
that's amazing that's really that's amazing
you're using all of it as you said
is which was going to a landfill
and now can be used in these various ways
energy reused to make other
other things or biochar etcetera
so when one of the things I
I noticed and Learned from from looking at your
your profile and talking to you earlier was
you're not only building a company
but you have a series of books that you have published
and you also have a TV show
my question is like
what role has the storytelling helped you
in creating awareness or attracting partners
building your business
how does that how does that help your overall mission
so when we first launched woodchuck
obviously we were a little teeny startup and
and no one had heard of us
and bioenergy and biomass
that
that's not a topic a lot of people know much about
or sometimes people have never even heard of that right
and so Angela is our a PR and comms person
I've worked with her for years
on a number of different companies
so I reached out to Angela and talked with her
and she said well
why don't you start writing articles
and I'll take your articles and I'll try
to get them placed in industry magazines
and we can use these articles
to start generating awareness for
for woodchuck and for biomass in general
and you know they can be educational articles
to just let people know that this is an option
that's out there
and what woodchuck is doing worked really well
a bunch of publications started pick up the articles
and they started to get published
and created great exposure and
and started improving our awareness
then uh ended up doing a
a monthly article for Fast Company and that helped
and then
then actually TC Bradley reached out to me and said hey
I've been following your content
I think you've written a book here and he said
if you really want to position Woodchuck
as a leader in the space you need to write a book
people will take the author of a book seriously
and so we took the content from all these articles
and that became the very first book
the very first book was called
Unleashing Abundant Energy
and it really told the story of biomass into bioenergy
as well as other renewable sources of energy
the book did really well
and we started to get a whole bunch of podcast invites
and then we decided to do
another book to explore the subject further
and it kind of it LED into the
the Abundant Energy book series
that there's now four books
the most recent is called Hyper Scale
the full title is Hyper Scale AI
data centers
and the next great expansion of global energy capacity
and it really drives into exactly
what we've been talking about today
data centers and the and the drive for more energy
and how we meet that energy
so that's what the books about
and then TC Bradley put me on a couple of TV shows
and then we started getting more exposure
and more awareness and then um
one Torres reached out and said hey
I've got this TV network now media TV
and we don't have a show on energy
we we really would like a show on energy
and sustainability
will you help us create a show and come host the show
so so we took that on as well
so
between the articles and the books and the podcast and
and the show we really think we found a a startup hack
so we've really driven kind of
oversized exposure and awareness
for this little teeny startup
we've actually started to
you know define this brand out in the market
without spending much money
I mean we're a little teeny startup
we definitely followed the lean startup mindset
so we don't spend very much on marketing at all
but our name's out there and people have heard of us
and we're getting inbound calls
from companies like Google
and Amazon and Ford
and we have investors that reach out and say hey
we saw the book or we saw the TV show and we you know
we're interested tell us more so it's um yeah
we really think it's a a a an awareness hack
we're pretty happy about how it's all gone yeah
I love that awareness hack
and for founders in the audience
this is yeah take a note of this
this seems like a great strategy
to get your name out without spending
you know a lot of dollars on marketing
and you have a new book coming out
what is it called what is it about
so the the first four books are really all about energy
the the sources of energy the demand for energy
so we really can have an informed decision
or an informed discussion about how we address this
you know rising demand for energy
the new book is called starving for innovation
and it it continues that discussion around energy and
and is driving energy conversation
and hyperscale data centers and how that plays into it
but it takes a little bit further
and it talks about how Woodchuck specifically
addressed that problem
and created a solution to address both the
too much waste and the need for more energy
and kind of positions Woodchuck as
a template for how to address this issue
and how to launch a startup
so it really becomes the story of energy
but also the story of woodchuck itself
and how woodchuck
and how other people can really follow that
playbook to drive innovation
launch and grow a startup and
and address some of these problems
that we're currently facing
as a community really
that's really a good resource
that can be a really good resource for
for founders and that's one of the reasons
or one of the goals of this podcast is to
to share that knowledge that
that
that kind of Learned from experience running a startup
so talking about you know any lessons Learned
you know as you build the company
were there any unexpected challenges
or lessons Learned
that you would like to share with the audience
as they are trying to build
and
some of them might be trying to build their companies
or might already have companies
but might benefit from from like learning from you
there are two big ones
and I would say the first one is
start with the problem don't start with the solution
there's a lot of startups out there that
you know fall in love with a particular technology or
or
build some product that they're really excited about
and then they go try to find a market for it
that's a really challenging way to do it
and lots of startups that do that don't have success
I would suggest
the way to really have a successful startup is to
start with the problem
what is the problem you're trying to solve
is this a big enough problem
that someone is willing to pay to solve it
and ideally you get
an initial client partner that you can work with
that'll give you great immediate feedback
and you can build the solution
and it's a problem that is a big enough pain point
that they will in fact
pay for someone to solve it
and you let the problem define the solution
maybe it's an AI solution
maybe it isn't maybe it's a simple
mechanical solution or a process solution
but let the problem define the solution and
and build your solution that way
so I think that's that's kind of a key first step
I think the next big thing is
anticipate and prepare for problems
you don't know what the problem is
but problems are coming there are always problems
you're gonna miss something
someone's gonna get sick something's gonna break
there's gonna be a weather problem
a project's gonna get delayed
there's a thousand things that can go wrong
and you don't know what it is
but you need to be prepared cause something is coming
and so for a startup
that largely means preserve your cash
be really slow to spend be slow to hire
be slow to buy equipment
preserve that cash because your
your burn rate and your runway
those are real those are real problems
and I know investors ask you about that all the time
but those are very fair questions
so I think your job as the founder
or the CEO is to never run out of money
that's your No. 1 job
so be very conservative with your money
don't hire soon don't buy stuff soon
if you can do it cheap do it cheap
if you can do it yourself for free
even better so start with the problem
expect problems
if you can be ready for those two things
then maybe you have a chance
that's that's great advice
thank you so much um
it's been a great pleasure talking to you today
um any
anything like
else you would like to share with the audience
and anything we didn't talk about
those are great questions
it was a fun question
if you're interested in learning more about woodchuck
you can visit woodchuck dot AI
if you're interested in any of the books
they're all on Amazon so you can just go to Amazon
and you can type in hyperscale
or you can type in Todd Thomas
the new book starving for innovation
will be available for pre order on July 1st
so uh
July 1st you can type in starving for innovation
and you should be able to uh
pre order your book there
so Rita thanks so much for having me on
you made this really simple
you're a great host I
I really enjoyed the conversation
yeah it was lovely
um to talk as well
and we'll look forward to your book on July 1st
thank you so much Todd
thank you alright