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"Living your life as if you're a good German"
Storytelling for Social Change - Host Sam Chavez (she/they/he) connects with fellow organizers, artists, and movement leaders boldly creating change in today's social, political, tech, & media landscape with heart, hope, & a grounded nervous system. We explore the roots of media, tech, & storytelling to cultivate a liberatory future.
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Sam Chavez (he/they/she) (00:01.814)
Hey y'all, this is Sam Chavez with the Roots of Change podcast, and I am so excited to welcome back Sharon Hurley Hall. and we are going to have a tough conversation today, but one that is very, very needed about the impacts, the economic impacts of black women, brown women, and folks who are intentionally trying to build positive social change. So welcome back Sharon. How are you?
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (00:22.606)
thanks, Sam. It is it's good to be back. yeah, that's a very necessary conversation to have. I think, you know, a lot of black and brown women, marginalised women have been going through it. And yeah, it is definitely something that we need to talk about. And I definitely have felt some of the impacts of that myself, even though I'm not in the US.
Sam Chavez (he/they/she) (00:51.946)
Yes. Yeah, and I'm I'm really happy that you agreed to have this conversation because you aren't in the US and you know we're witnessing the rise of the second rise of Donald Trump. and since his election we've seen major impacts on the economic outlook for black women in the US, but we're also seeing that globally because of just that rise in fascism, that rise in
racist hate and the need for white supremacy to reign supreme once again. so can you give folks just a little reminder about who you are, where you come from and and what you do?
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (01:38.284)
Yeah, sure, sure Sam. Okay, so I'm Sharon Hurley Hall. I it's hard to say exactly where I'm from. I was born in England. I live mostly in the Caribbean in Barbados. I I'm the author of I'm tired of racism. I run Sharon's anti racism newsletter and the share anti racism community. I'm an educator as well, podcaster, fingers in many pies, really.
A lot of my work recently has been around anti racism, which is which is so relevant to what we're talking about today, Sam.
Sam Chavez (he/they/she) (02:15.306)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. And you're you're a communications expert too, you know, like really being able to communicate that out to folks and make sure that that it has impact is really amazing.
so yeah.
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (02:29.934)
Thank you. I I always forget about that bit 'cause I yes, I'm a former journalist as well.
Sam Chavez (he/they/she) (02:37.01)
It it's hard to to lock you down. You're you've got too many talents. So that's a good thing. but you know, we regardless of talents, we are seeing a drop in black women's employment. So just to start us out, there's a a lot of different statistics that we're seeing come through and you and I are are actually seeing it the impacts on the ground for that. in twenty twenty five
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (02:41.162)
Yeah.
Sam Chavez (he/they/she) (03:06.208)
was the worst black women suffered the worst unemploym excuse me. Black women suffered the largest unemploym not unemployment, employment. Black women suffered the largest employment losses in twenty twenty five. the employment rate fell by one point four percent to fifty five point seven percent in twenty twenty five.
And I think what's most interesting about all of those statistics is that the folks who are impacted the most were public sector roles and black women with bachelor's degrees, black women who went to college, got their degree, have those skills, they are having they suffered the largest unemployment losses.
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (04:00.434)
Yeah, for sure.
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (04:05.778)
It's it's it's almost unfathomable what has actually happened. and you know, I even though I'm not in the US, obviously, a lot of my network is so I you know I have talked to so many black women who are based in the US over the last year, especially those who have been involved in DEI anti racism. But not only that, just the people that were, you know, were fired from federal government roles,
because of doge, you know, all of you know, and there have been so I have not spoken to a single black woman this year based in the US and also some outside who has not said, my gosh, this has really affected my my business. That, you know, things have been things have been suffering. I'm not making the kind of income that I'm used to. I've really had to do some cutting back. You know, that is generally
how it has been and I certainly for myself have seen well I run a newsletter which has a paid element and I've definitely seen the paid support start to drop off. It had been rising quite steadily, you know, from twenty twenty five onwards it has been going down a little bit. I mean I still have some for which I'm very grateful, but definitely yeah
you know, y I've seen that. I've seen the I've seen the change in the number of people hiring me for speaking engagements, way down, for all kinds of consultancy, way down. And I know that I'm not alone in this because I had the opportunity, for example, to speak to groups of black women while I was in England over the summer. And many of them also report some of the same things. Because of course it's not just what's happening with
47, it's also what we know the backlash and the general almost the domino effect or the ripple effect of that election around the world with the rise of the far right in many other places. And on most recently the election of the AFD in a I don't know if it's a borough or whatever it is in Germany, right? for the first time since the Second World War. Right. And so
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (06:31.103)
We're seeing this. There's there's Reform UK as well with their anti-immigration rhetoric and narrative. So many, you know, as you walk around the country, you see so many people dying into this, and then that affects how black women and their ventures are being perceived. And we have also seen, in the same way as we've seen organizations fulfilling a valuable societal role defunded. We've seen them come under
much more scrutiny in places like the UK, some of which have had to close down or cut back. And so, you know, services that are absolutely necessary are being being removed, you know. And that's before you even get to the the personal impact on, you know, the people who are often keeping their families and extended families going. The
the impact in terms of their mental health as well because you know you know, it's hard to be to move from a position where you think you you all ever have everything together to a position where you're struggling. You know, it is really just so
Yeah. I mean the the the the results, the impacts are wide ranging, aren't they, Sam?
Sam Chavez (he/they/she) (07:51.841)
Mm. Yeah. Yeah, I think like the the rip aff ripple effect, the domino, like that's a really good analogy 'cause I feel like in my experience just with like social change organizations, nonprofits, the government, we saw that big push right when Trump became president again. with the Doge cuts, they intentionally targeted black women.
a lot of that, you know, there is this, you know, undercurrent of resentment towards black women by white supremacists to see like watching black women succeed. and so they did intentionally target the government because they know that those public sector roles are disproportionately not dispropor are are the majority of those roles go to black folks, black women.
brown women, you know, and and that was an intentional strategy to have that larger impact and then impact us all personally. And so I think, you know, I want to talk a little bit about about that ripple effect because obviously there are the overt white supremacists who are in the streets and we understand why they are doing this.
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (09:05.14)
Yes.
Sam Chavez (he/they/she) (09:17.17)
But we're also seeing that larger impact trickling down into, you know, you losing speaking gigs. You know, you're not you're not working with white supremacists, you're working with folks who have said that they want anti-racism, had said that they want to build a better world, but we're still seeing that that structure.
Sam Chavez (he/they/she) (09:43.358)
Yeah.
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (09:46.057)
Yeah, there's definitely there's a sil there's a silencing going on. There's a silencing going on, I think, in so many ways. it's not just about as you say, it's not just about taking jobs away. It's also about making sure that certain perspectives aren't being heard. And again, we see the most egregious examples of this in the US with
with book bands, with rewriting history, with that kind of thing. You know, just even scrolling through your Instagram feed, the the number of organizations that have ha been affected by this, you know, the the idea that telling the truth of the history of the United States or telling the truth of the history of colonialism in the United Kingdom or in any of the European powers is somehow
quote unquote anti-white, right? And therefore discriminatory and therefore as bad as racism, which it isn't and can never be. You know, so there's you know there's definitely a lot of that kind of thing going on. And so it seems very deliberate, but the the the the the worrying thing about it is the number of people who
Sam Chavez (he/they/she) (10:54.208)
Right.
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (11:15.06)
Don't appear to exercise critical thinking skills and consider what the truth behind all of this is, who don't appear to look behind the headlines, who don't examine whether what is being the narrative that is being pushed through the media to serve the far right agenda actually has any validity whatsoever, which for the most part it doesn't, right?
and I don't think I find that even more worrying that people are not questioning that kind of thing, that people are simply accepting that almost as as truth, as gospel, as you know. Yeah, I mean shades of nineteen eighty four in a post truth world, right? yeah.
Sam Chavez (he/they/she) (12:05.3)
Yeah, and I I think, you know, I also think about World War Two and just like, you know, we're we're in this moment right now and we all are individuals making individual decisions. We live in capitalism and we the individualism is kind of king in capitalism. and we aren't reaching towards community.
And I think that's really like the the thing that I'm most concerned about is that you know, thinking about World War Two, they they had the phrase of like being a good German, you know. If you're a good German, you know, you just go about your life. Don't worry about what, you know, the government is doing, don't worry, just go do your life. And and that's what we're seeing is that, you know, it's so sad what's happening.
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (12:47.668)
Mm-hmm.
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (12:57.941)
Mm-hmm.
Sam Chavez (he/they/she) (12:58.496)
But I'm not going to do anything about it. I'm not going to change my life. I as a white person had to tighten my belt a little bit. So I'm, you know, it it becomes this like selfish behavior and people don't even realize that that's what they're doing because just living your life is being a good German.
Okay,
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (13:31.261)
Yes, for sure. I think I think it's almost the antithesis of community, isn't it? It's everybody out for themselves, not curious and and you know, people don't start to care about what's happening to other people until it starts to affect them. And I think a lot of people have got nasty surprises, you know, and even have been heard to say, I thought it was just going to affect black people. Now it's affecting me and now I don't like it.
Right? and it reminds me of gosh, what is the name of that anti racism educator who did the blue eyes brown eyes experiment. We'll find the name later. But anyway, I remember there's a there's a there's a video of her addressing a room full of white people and say and she says, If you are would be happy to be treated the way black people are treated, then
Stand up and nobody stands up. And then she says it again. And nobody stands up. She says, okay, so you know then. And you're okay with it. And I think a lot of people know and are okay as long as they perceive it isn't affecting them. Which is such an inhumane attitude. You know, and for those of us who are in the social justice activist spaces who are very communic community-minded, who are very humanity-minded, it is
Sam Chavez (he/they/she) (14:31.155)
Mm.
Sam Chavez (he/they/she) (14:58.846)
Yeah. Yeah. And I I experience that in the Bay Area every day. because I I feel like as a light skinned Latina, as a light skinned native person, you know, I am perceived as white and I walk in the world in white with white privilege. and I hear I overhear those conversations from privileged white folks who are, you know, they're
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (14:59.199)
hard to even get into the minds of someone who would have that attitude. You know what I mean?
Sam Chavez (he/they/she) (15:26.774)
Having to tighten their belt just a little bit and that's that's all that they really mat they care about. Or, you know, no, we have to see unhoused people. That is so frustrating to my experience because I don't want to know that the way that I'm living my life is actually causing a rise in homelessness in the Bay Area in California and globally, really.
'cause we are seeing such a large migrant crisis as well.
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (15:58.357)
Mm-hmm.
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (16:06.879)
yes. And then you know, there then there is the the anti immigrant rhetoric. my gosh. It's like
Sam Chavez (he/they/she) (16:09.121)
in the UK actually worse and worse.
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (16:18.599)
In the UK. Yes, yes, it's like these are human beings. People don't get into a small boat and leave their country because everything is rosy where they come from. And people are actually legally by international law allowed to seek asylum in other countries. And so why are we demonizing people who are already traumatized for trying to make their lives better? Especially in a country that went to other countries to make their lives better.
Sam Chavez (he/they/she) (16:42.272)
Yes, exactly.
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (16:48.597)
Right? Especially in those countries. And I mean the the the irony, the double standard is really quite egregious. Right. And and the inhumanity, the the the thing that has really troubled me in some some spaces while in the UK is that
You know, we're not seeing they're you know, they're not seeing people who are migrating as human beings, as fellow human beings worthy of care. You know. You know, you hear conversations with people, okay, we don't want them to have anything, they're taking away from us. But you know what? England wouldn't have recovered after the war if it hadn't been for immigration. Some of the you know, the NHS wouldn't run without immigration.
Sam Chavez (he/they/she) (17:27.092)
Right.
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (17:39.411)
the national health service in the UK, right? And so there's so many situations where and and and often the people who come to a country in search of a better life are so committed and work so hard and so the way that they are perceived is so different from the reality in many cases. You know, people are people. Yes, of course in any group of people you're gonna get bad apples, right?
But you know you know one bad apple doesn't spoil the whole bunch, I think, is what Michael Jackson sang. Right, the Jackson sang I just I just I you know, I think I think we have it the wrong way round in assuming negatives about all these people when actually there's a lot of good that comes from having people who have migrated to your country who have
Sam Chavez (he/they/she) (18:11.008)
Yeah.
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (18:38.677)
Come to add something to the mix in having those people there. And I think also, you know, people, for example, in relation to unhouse people, you know, sometimes that is just how your luck went. It doesn't necessarily it's not a character flaw, it is circumstances, right? And again, I think there's such a tendency to
Sam Chavez (he/they/she) (19:06.024)
Yeah. Yeah. No, absolutely. And I think, you know, I I think about the phrase, you know, like the system isn't broken, it's working as designed. Because, you know, we're at a moment now where we're in 2026, but you know, we can look back centuries ago and can see the ripple effects of how we got here. this the structure, the stories that we tell about
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (19:08.415)
to stigmatize and demonize people when they are human beings worthy of love and care and respect. That's how I feel anyway.
Sam Chavez (he/they/she) (19:35.829)
migrants about black people is because of the colonial history and the colonial violence from the United States, from the United Kingdom and all of these European countries. Like that is de by design. And it's a way to insulate people, privileged folks, to feel like, you know, they they pulled themselves up by their bootstraps, you know, and I I think about the the wealthy folks who are like,
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (19:43.912)
yeah.
Sam Chavez (he/they/she) (20:05.258)
And I had nothing and I built this company. I'm like, didn't you get like a million dollars from your dad? You know? Like, there's there are real folks, you know, here in the Bay Area. there are are f migrants who have moved up here and they're trying to start food businesses. They want to feed the community with healthy food, with food that comes from, you know, their lands and they are being stripped away.
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (20:20.99)
Yeah.
Well, exactly.
Sam Chavez (he/they/she) (20:34.784)
From that. Like food vendor applications are being denied. It is systemic. It is intentional that folks cannot get out. So especially when we talk about unhoused folks, when we talk about being food insecure, like you go try to get a job when they are intentionally not hiring black women, you know, or other marginalized folks. Like that is just the reality.
And we are defunding all of these institutions that were designed to support, you know, and and really it was just like a little bit of support. What we really need is large-scale social change so that everyone has new opportunities. because I can tell you that unhoused folks here in the Bay Area are amazing, smart, talented people.
And they are just being pushed down and pushed down and everything goes against them because the system is designed that.
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (21:32.181)
Ha ha ha.
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (21:53.013)
Yeah. The system is designed that way. And you know, that that that lack of care, that lack of humanity, actually, you know, will result in in you know, illness, in death, you know, people you know, there's a limit to how much people can actually take and survive. but you know, here's the thing. You know, if you get rid of all of those people who have been
Sam Chavez (he/they/she) (22:23.2)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (22:23.239)
working in so many jobs in so many levels and putting back into the community, your your your life is actually also going to be poorer. You may not realize it yet, right? But it will. It will, you know. If you were to, you know, take away everything that immigration brought to the nation, if you were taking take away the inventions, if you were take to take away all the support that is put back into every community.
Then it's going to be a much poorer life. And the thing that is annoying, I mean, coming back to where we started with the 600,000, I think it is, black women out of out of work, right? So many of those women, as I said, are supporting families and communities and so on. So it it has a it has a ripple effect on making things harder for all of those people, right? And you know.
Sam Chavez (he/they/she) (23:18.102)
Yeah.
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (23:23.368)
In the US, especially where you know employment is often tied to healthcare, then you're literally sentencing people to death to having poorer health outcomes, right? Literally by making sure that they don't have work and can't get work, right? I mean, yeah, yeah.
Sam Chavez (he/they/she) (23:26.102)
Absolutely. Yeah, and I I didn't pull those statistics, but I can I I've had these conversations with folks who are working directly with marginalized communities, unhoused folks, but like we are seeing an increase in excess death in in suicides because people can't see the future. They can't see the light at the end of the tunnel. and
comes all of those things, I I'm witnessing that every single day. people who are unable to get their medication, unable to, you know, just survive in this world. And that is again, it's by design. And I think, yeah, go ahead.
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (24:26.26)
Yeah.
Yeah. No, and and and and of course when you have things like the agencies that are supposed to regulate health and environment and all that kind of thing being defanged and defunded, when you have, you know, no due diligence done on medication, the people who are already suffering are the people that are most likely to be affected. So I you know, it's I mean it's a deliberate policy. We saw Product Twenty Twenty Five, we know some of the stuff that lies behind it.
we know some of the people that are behind it gl on a global scale because you know it's really interesting how all of a sudden you'll hear Elon Musk you know commenting on things happening over in the in the UK or you'll you know you'll see that Nigel Farage leader of Reform UK has these relationships with some of these far right and it's like it's a it's a concerted and deliberate effort, global effort, right?
Sam Chavez (he/they/she) (25:13.98)
It yes, it is global.
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (25:29.215)
So make it black yeah, make things worse for black and brown people, for marginalized people, for the poorest people, for anybody that does not fit the norm, right? and of course, you know, queer and yeah, so-called no queer and trans folks, neurodivergent folks, anybody that does not fit this particular white male cisgender norm, right?
Sam Chavez (he/they/she) (25:57.982)
Yeah. Yeah, and that
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (25:59.507)
And so there are they are there's an attempt to refashion the world as it was a couple of centuries ago to favour only those people. and honestly we have to keep fighting it. We have to keep fighting it. Right? we have to at least make it known that we see it. I think it was Tony Morrison who said that this is the time when you know artists and writers are most needed.
to shine a light on these things. And I don't think that she was the only one to say that, but that's the one I remember at the moment, right? And so that is why the work that we do, you know, your podcast, my newsletter, the work that we do to make sure that people continue to see these things and is important, I believe.
Sam Chavez (he/they/she) (26:29.75)
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I was gonna dovetail into, you know, how do we, where do we go from here? And like, you know, just to plug, if you are not a paid subscriber of Sharon Hurley Paul's newsletter, please become one. We also have a private podcast as well at the Roots of Change Agency. it only is at $2 a month, and that really helps us cover some of those tech costs.
because there is an intentional strategy and it is ultimately about storytelling, right? You know, we talk about storytelling for social change. Well, Elon Musk has his own story, and he is the one that his story is dominant right now because they have the funds. Peter Thiel, founder of Palantir, he funds a ton of different right-wing reporters, media outlets.
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (27:23.667)
Yeah.
Well.
Sam Chavez (he/they/she) (27:26.954)
you know, all of these people that you see on your algorithms, you have to ask where is the funding come from? Because some of us are self funded and we do the best we can. and those are usually the folks who are trying to shape and challenge the system. so that's number one of what you should do, but also, you know, like what what do you know, well meaning folk do in this situation other than just
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (27:29.759)
You think?
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (27:36.863)
Yeah. Yeah.
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (27:46.741)
Yeah.
Sam Chavez (he/they/she) (27:54.871)
Shake their heads and say, This is so terrible.
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (27:55.093)
Well, honestly, this is this is the time for this is the time for folks to step in.
Sam Chavez (he/they/she) (28:08.106)
Yeah.
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (28:24.349)
And put their money where their values are. Okay? Seriously. Because you know, people people like us and the many others that we know need support for the work that we are doing to make sure that these things stay in the public eye. You know, I always think that you know we're all working and we've talked about this before, Sam, I think on on previous episodes, you know, about the ripple effect, about the fact
That we can be the drops. So each of us is working in our own area for a greater whole, right? And but that in order to be able to do that, we need, because we're still living in this capitalist system, we still need to be able to pay our bills and afford food and afford health care. And so we need support for the work that we do. you know, start redistributing your funds.
Sam Chavez (he/they/she) (29:14.634)
Yeah.
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (29:18.464)
to places where it can really do good. Make sure that you're, you know, you're going to the people that are doing it on ground level, at the grassroots level, right? Preferably not through multiple layers of bureaucracy before they and you know which chips away at the amount that you're giving. Right? So that is what that is kind of what we need to be doing, right? Where you have it, redistribute it. If you don't have it, amplify those who are who are sounding the the clarion call.
Sam Chavez (he/they/she) (29:46.676)
Absolutely.
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (29:47.987)
Right. There there's no excuse for doing nothing. We can all do something. Even people even people who don't have funds at their disposal can do something. They can share. They can amplify. They can volunteer if they're people that are good with on the ground stuff. There's lots of stuff that can be done. Yeah? And I'm sure you have a few that you could add to that list as well, Sam.
Sam Chavez (he/they/she) (29:51.904)
Well, I was just going to, you know, uplift what you said. I I do I've talked about a kind of a one in, one out strategy where, you know, big tech is dominant right now and we are seeing that they are as fascist as they have always been. but they are just being much more loud about it. And I think that's something that people need to consider, you know, like if are you paying for a subscription, are you supporting
Mark Zuckerberg, you know, maybe you're not paying Mark Zuckerberg, but by being on the platform every single day, you're giving him ad dollars. You're allowing people to sell ads to you. And so what does that mean for you? Like, can you either take that subscription away and then invest it in your newsletter, for example? Or is it, hey, I'm gonna be on Instagram.
X amount of hours less so that I can have the time to listen to this podcast, so that I have the time to text five friends, hey, I just listened to this amazing podcast, you should listen too. you know, there's a lot of like amplification strategies that we can think about. you know, the drop of water, definitely recommend if you have not listened to our the our previous podcast. we've got some great conversations. So
just look for for Sharon's name. I'll also uplift, you know, Joe Cardillo and I have had a ton of conversations about the government and how big tech is associated with the government and their larger plans from a global level and how all of that is interconnected. but you know we the drop of water, I also say like a trickle can lead to a waterfall. If we're all a drop of water and we all participate,
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (31:25.733)
Uh-huh.
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (31:33.726)
Yeah.
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (31:48.46)
yes.
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (32:06.323)
Yes, for sure. I I think it is
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (32:15.667)
Yeah. We we have to do no, we kinda we have we have to do what we can and we have to be mindful of how we use certain platforms. I have not left every platform that I'm on. I'm not on Facebook and I am on Instagram. And I primarily use that to uplift other people who are doing activist stuff. Get more, you know, with my with my thousand followers get things out to more people. But
I think it's a question of doing what you can do, right? Having a having a look at like have a look at your tech stack. What can you get rid of now? What can you plan to get rid of later? What are the replacements? You know, some some of those things are gonna hurt. Some of those things are gonna hurt. I I'm a voracious reader and I love my Kindle Unlimited subscription. I have replaced it with a Library card and a l and a Libby app, right?
Sam Chavez (he/they/she) (32:49.11)
Yeah.
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (33:14.198)
Right, so there are there are things and yeah, it means that sometimes I can't get hold of a book immediately when I want it. But honestly, it has not been as bad as I thought. And I still have the option, especially now that bookshop.org has ebooks, to go and purchase through an indie bookshop by using that website. So I think what we need is the will. What we need is the will to do something about it. And you know, we have to be realistic.
Sam Chavez (he/they/she) (33:40.958)
Yes.
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (33:43.665)
Depending on people's circumstances, they may not be able to divest completely from everything immediately. But, you know, make a change. Make a change. Do what you can and then and then move on to the next thing. You know, have a plan. one of the things I I recently released a course called Building and Sustaining Anti Racist Habits. It's like a three part audio thing.
And one of the one of the things I talk about is having an anti-racism habit stack where you know you start cha daisy chaining things together, you know, with your morning coffee, right? Or whatever warm drink or smoothie you have in the morning, can you amplify a post, leave a positive comment, you know, speak somebody's name into a room, for example. So I think people even when we feel we can't do anything, there's always something we can do. Right?
Sam Chavez (he/they/she) (34:15.114)
Yeah. Yeah.
Sam Chavez (he/they/she) (34:21.364)
Yeah. And I would say too, you know, to the point about like if you don't have the means, like, you also have a voice. And I think, you know, especially right now, you're you are in the rooms that you are in. And how can you just a little bit change that room, change that dynamic? You know, can you call something out? You know, I was I was on the bus the other day and these two like men came on the bus
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (34:40.041)
And I think it's very important for us to do that.
Sam Chavez (he/they/she) (34:51.124)
white men and they one of them was just a loudmouth, he was talking, talking, talking, and he said a derogatory term towards trans people. And his friends said, Hey man, don't say that. They don't say that. That's not cool. That's not cool. And he's like, why can't I say that? You know that you know and it's not that you he changed that guy's mind overnight, but he he said something and he put that into the conversation.
And maybe that guy will think differently. And maybe if he doesn't change, the his friends around him will change. So really think about the room that you're in and how can you disrupt that so that we are building that better world because each of us is a responsible for the world that we're in. We obviously do not have the same power that the elites and billionaires and Donald Trump have. We don't have that microphone.
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (35:25.43)
Mm-hmm.
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (35:42.453)
Yeah.
Sam Chavez (he/they/she) (35:47.798)
But we have a lot of influence inside the relationships and community that we do have. And I think a lot of folks forget that sometimes.
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (35:52.927)
Yeah.
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (36:26.333)
Yeah. We're we're not powerless. We're not powerless and we have more tools than ever to share our voice. Right? You know, if you think about twenty years ago, would we have been doing this? Right? But now, you know, you can do podcasts, you can do newsletters, you can do social media posts. And all of these things that can be used for bad can also be used for good. So
Sam Chavez (he/they/she) (36:47.52)
Yeah.
Sam Chavez (he/they/she) (36:53.174)
Well and even like to to reframe it too, it's like, you know, they've labeled woke as something bad. Like what is woke? It's being awake. What is wrong with being awake? Do you want to be asleep? You know, like this is the world that we all deserve. So let's do our part to make that the world that we live in, not just the one that we dream.
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (36:55.045)
You know the the the the the thing is that we have to make our woke lefty right perspectives our inclusive perspectives our feelings about diversity, we have to make those as loud as all the others. Louder. We have to drown out the bigotry, right? That's a goal. Drown out the bigotry with wokeness.
Sam Chavez (he/they/she) (37:29.056)
Yeah.
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (37:32.949)
Mm-hmm.
Sam Chavez (he/they/she) (37:33.172)
Yeah.
Yeah. I mean
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (37:36.98)
Yes.
Sam Chavez (he/they/she) (37:41.398)
That's always been my strategy. I mean, I I grew up in in Texas in like a Christian nationalist world and you know you're you're constantly battling that world and and you can only do so much when you're like in it, especially as a child. But I was always like, how do I be the most me that I can be in a safe way in this world?
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (37:45.237)
Yes. Exactly. I mean, you know, if you know I would rather be woke, aware of injustice, aware of inhumanity, than asleep and ignoring it. I agree with you. Right? It's just like, yeah, be more woke. If you think you're woke enough, get even more woke. Okay? And then get get then get even more woke, okay?
Sam Chavez (he/they/she) (38:07.798)
And I think the other thing too, you know, we you talked a little bit about mental health and definitely like let's get into that from a perspective about you know marginalized folks, but also from the perspective of the privileged, you know, like the your mental health is not better today than it was in 2023. you know, like we're we the these things impact us whether we understand that or not. And so
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (38:29.237)
Mm-hmm.
Sam Chavez (he/they/she) (38:36.468)
you know, if you think that you're you're being some altruist, like it's also helpful for you to have a healthier lifestyle, to push yourself beyond where you feel that you can. Because once you have those conversations, once you build that community, then you have people that are there for you, that back you up. and you know, like wouldn't we all want that?
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (39:26.815)
But it's actually
Sam Chavez (he/they/she) (39:28.662)
Yeah.
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (39:39.249)
Yeah, we absolutely all need that community and that support, and often the people that push these views are devoid of it, you know. and I think you know
Sam Chavez (he/they/she) (39:40.66)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Sam Chavez (he/they/she) (39:52.843)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think I think about Bell Hooks and then I'm also thinking about Martin Luther King Jr. because he spoke of agape love. And you know, agape love is that deep, deep love of all things, you know, like we have romantic love, we have different kinds of love, but agape love is that like deep in your core, I love
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (39:57.587)
I think I think we just need we need more love in the world, right? And we need to we need to recognize it as something that is active, right? Not just not just a throwaway word that you say, but what does that mean in terms of how you treat your fellow human beings, right? If you default to that, if you default to love and care as your starting point, then what does that mean about how you treat folks that you perceive are different from you, right?
Sam Chavez (he/they/she) (40:22.646)
And you know, I think about John Lewis too. John Lewis had agape love despite the things that he was faced with during the civil rights movement. You know, being kicked in the face by white women and white children and still loving them because he knows that they are also trapped in this system. and so when we have agape love, we can see no.
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (40:28.255)
I mean I don't feel like that's so hard.
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (40:41.621)
Mm-hmm.
Sam Chavez (he/they/she) (40:50.282)
We can see the humanity in others.
Wait until Sharon returns.
Sam Chavez (he/they/she) (41:22.172)
we could cut around it. It luckily this the we could just mix it up.
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (41:23.059)
Yeah. Right. So yeah, you were talking about Martin Luther King and John Lewis and Agape Love. And and yeah, you know, that's that's like brotherly love or you know, sibling love, I suppose we would probably say in this in this day and age. And you know, thinking
Sam Chavez (he/they/she) (41:31.202)
but yeah.
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (41:51.389)
thinking of your your your fellow human in a in a positive and loving way. And I honestly think that that is something we need more of, you know?
Sam Chavez (he/they/she) (42:02.582)
Hmm. Yeah. Yeah, and it's it's it's really about, you know, bringing back the humanity in people that you've maybe have dehumanized. and also being gentle with with yourself as you go through this journey. because I do think, you know, we live in this world. We live in a racist white supremacist society. And whether you want to believe it or not, we always have. like or not always, obviously.
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (42:20.689)
Absolutely.
Sam Chavez (he/they/she) (42:32.532)
The long history of humanity this is a short period, but it is centuries long. And so you yourself yes. But you know, when we do bring that humanity back, we realize like how much we really are connected, how much we have in common. and that we don't have to have these dividing lines that just section people off and make us smaller and smaller.
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (42:33.992)
Yeah.
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (42:38.609)
Yeah. A short but very impactful period. Yes. For sure, for sure.
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (43:04.211)
I think it's so important to recognise that you know fundamentally we are one people. And you know, people people forget that, right? When you start thinking about how would you react under those circumstances? What would you do if your life was threatened, if your family was threatened? How what length would you go to to protect your family and your children? When you start to think about it like that.
Then all of a sudden it makes sense, you know, migration makes sense, immigration makes sense, and why is the why ever would that be wrong, you know?
Sam Chavez (he/they/she) (43:42.827)
Yeah. Yeah, I mean you think about like the MAGA moms and they they talk about what is it called? Like they're like they're it's like they always talk about bear bear like they're like they love their children so much and they're like their mama bears or whatever. And it's like, yeah, so are the migrant women who have carried their children over countries so that they could be safe from harm and from violence. Like we're all
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (43:55.474)
It's not.
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (44:11.142)
Yeah.
Sam Chavez (he/they/she) (44:12.766)
trying to survive in this world and if we do that in a more collective way, it becomes easier for all of us.
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (44:24.434)
And I think, I mean, you know, we already said this before, you know, community is the answer. Community is the answer, community support is the answer. and you know, yes, we should absolutely have social systems in place to make sure that people have food and shelter and healthcare. We absolutely should, right?
But we also need something that brings us together as people. and you know, the more you know about other people, the more you see what unites you instead of divides you, I believe.
Sam Chavez (he/they/she) (44:58.038)
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. we do have to start wrapping up, but I really wanted to kind of bring it down. You know, we're talking a lot about just kind of the larger systems and and how we're all impacted in that. But, you know, what are some things for folks who are, you know, struggling from a mental health perspective right now, struggling to see that light at the end of the tunnel, because that again is what fascism does.
tries to make us feel small, make us feel like we have no agency, no control. how do we what little steps that we can take individually to move through this moment?
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (45:41.486)
Mm-hmm.
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (45:50.514)
Yeah. I I I feel like a a broken record in that I'm gonna say community again. It's about finding people who can offer you that support, finding people who understand what you're going through, looking for the the organizations and the initiatives that have been set up for support in this moment. There are people out there with lists of jobs, there are people out there with
you know, who are recreating information that has been removed from government websites. There are there are people doing all these kinds of things to make up for what is being deliberately hidden and taken away. And okay, it's not a perfect solution because at the end of the day, you know, you still you still want to be able to eat, you still need healthcare, you still need all of those things. But sometimes I think from a mental health point of view,
Knowing that there are others that understand, you know, I have certainly found it helpful to talk to other people who have been going through similar things in terms of how business has been affected. Sometimes the very fact of not feeling alone can provide the lifeline that you need. No, it's not perfect. There are still things that have to be done, there's still things that you want to happen, but but it's a start, isn't it?
Sam Chavez (he/they/she) (47:05.556)
Yeah, absolutely. And and I'll say for myself, you know, community is is saving me right now. I've made an intentional strategy, not I mean strategy. You and I are strategists, so I have to like say that, but you know, I've intentionally found community and I've built that and I've invested the time with people. And you know, like in in country song, you know, you get by with a little help.
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (47:27.58)
Yeah.
Sam Chavez (he/they/she) (47:34.314)
your friends and like that's that's what I'm doing right now and my friends are getting by with my support too and I think I I wrote a poem once called like the movement is like a woven basket you know if you fall and you are an individualist you're gonna hurt yourself but if you fall in community that basket will hold you and it won't be as big of a fall and that is real. That is real.
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (47:43.452)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Sam Chavez (he/they/she) (48:02.758)
So the other advice too would just be like, you know, get out there. If you're online and you're feeling lonely, that is by design. Our tech is designed to make us isolated because the people who are creating the tech are isolated. and so break from
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (48:05.756)
Yeah.
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (48:10.556)
Yeah.
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (48:14.268)
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (48:25.628)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (48:36.9)
And I would add to that, don't don't be afraid to create a community because you can guarantee if you're feeling a thing, there's somebody else or other people out there feeling it. Don't be afraid to put out the call. This is not the time to stand on that white supremacist value of perfectionism, right? This is the time to actually put out the call and say, Hey, I'm feeling this, who else is feeling this?
get together virtually or in person and get that support, to get that, you know, feeling that I think that's so important.
Sam Chavez (he/they/she) (49:06.398)
Yeah, for sure. That that's it. Community is important. so before we leave, let folks know kind of where they can find your work, how they can subscribe, how c they can support you. yeah.
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (49:34.108)
Sure. you can find all my work on my website SharonH H dot com. You can support by taking a page to my newsletter on anti racism newsletter dot com or by buying my book Anti Pride of Racism available most places in most formats. But
Sam Chavez (he/they/she) (49:44.512)
Perfect, yeah. And of course we will have that all in the show notes. So if you can't find it, it will be right there for you. and same thing with the Roots of Change Agency. we've got RootsChangeAgency.com and you can find our podcast there. we also just started a Patreon where we're gonna be talking about healthy living, healthy food, how we get back to the roots of of a healthy lifestyle that is not maha, not
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (50:07.618)
Yeah.
Sam Chavez (he/they/she) (50:14.576)
you know so definitely check all of that out all of these conversations are incredibly important and they are not funded by anyone other than our listeners and our supporters so big shout out to everyone who has supported Sharon and I through the years we are so appreciative and let's just keep going. We can keep fighting we can keep finding that hope and building the future that we deserve.
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (50:18.226)
Yeah, you don't have
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (50:39.218)
I guess I'm back to the
Sam Chavez (he/they/she) (50:46.878)
Anything you want to say before we cut off?
Sam Chavez (he/they/she) (50:52.683)
Yeah.
Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) (51:01.522)
No, I think you've said it all. you know, just be the drops, love each other, care for each other and let us use our voices and put more love into the world.
Sam Chavez (he/they/she) (51:08.628)
Yes, beautiful. Well with that everyone, I hope you all stay rooted.