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Descriptions of effective teaching often depict an idealized form of "perfect" instruction. Yet, pursuing perfection in teaching, which depends on children's behavior, is ultimately futile. To be effective, lessons and educators need to operate with about 75% efficiency. The remaining 25% can be impactful, but expecting it in every lesson, every day, is unrealistic. Perfection in teaching may be unattainable, but progress is not. Whether you are aiming for the 75% effectiveness mark or striving for continuous improvement, this podcast will guide you in that endeavor.
Gene Tavernetti: Welcome to Better Teaching, Only Stuff That Works, a podcast for teachers, instructional coaches, administrators, and anyone else who supports teachers in the classroom.
This show is a proud member of the BE Podcast Network shows that help you go beyond education.
Find all our shows@bepodcastnetwork.com.
I Am Gene Tavernetti the host for this podcast.
And my goal for this episode, like all episodes, is that you laugh at least once and that you leave with an actionable idea for better teaching.
A quick reminder, no cliches, no buzzwords.
Only stuff that works.
I'm excited today to talk about a topic which, if anybody has been listening to me for any period of time, knows is important to me, and that is the idea of having schools have a, their own identity.
They are a some sort of thematic school, whether it's classical, whether it's technical, whether it's medical, whatever it is.
But there is something that makes that school unique that allows parents who are looking to choose schools to give them some sort of reason to go to that school.
And so today, we're gonna talk more about that with somebody who has been involved in magnet schools for 40 years.
And my guest today to talk about this with me is Jane Wagner.
Jane is very recently retired.
I say recently retired, within weeks of retirement.
Jane served 43 years in the Fresno Unified School District, beginning in 1991, where she taught at an environmental science magnet school, and she taught there for seven years and moved to a school without a theme for a couple years.
But then in 1993, she landed at Buller Talent School, where she initially taught seventh and eighth grade English language arts and a variety of visual and performing arts classes.
Just to be clear, Buller Talent is a visual and performing arts magnet school.
In 1995, she began her 31-year run directing the annual Buller Talent Middle School musical, opening with The Music Man and closing this year with Honk Jr.
In 1997, Jane and Jody Lipari assumed the roles of Buller Talent School of Visual and Performing Arts co-coordinators while continuing to teach eighth grade core academics.
In 1999, she joined Randy Berger in co-directing Showcase, a grades six through eight award-winning show choir that performs choreographed and staged pop and contemporary music at local, state, and national
events In 2017, Jane left the academic classroom to focus on the management of the Boler Talent Visual and Performing Arts program, in addition to directing the annual middle school musical and showcase.
Throughout her entire career, Jane has been passionate about the power of visual and performing arts.
Whether teaching at a traditional or magnet school, she always sought ways to incorporate the visual and performing arts as a means to engage
students, develop the whole child, foster a sense of self and identity, and provide a forum to bridge differences and cultivate understanding.
She has thoroughly enjoyed her 43 years in education, but is greatly looking forward to spending time with her six sons, their wives, significant
others, her grandson Atlas, grandson Sienna, and the three grandchildren that will be born this fall within three weeks of each other.
I think you're gonna like this one, and full disclosure, I had the pleasure of working with Jane for about five years, and I can vouch for so much of what she has to say.
I think you're gonna like this one
jane, thank you so much for being on Better Teaching: Only Stuff That Works.
Thank you for having me.
We- Oh, my pleasure.
My, my pleasure.
And as I said in the introduction, I am so interested in in schools having themes, making, you know, being able to distinguish themselves from other folks whether it's a charter, whether it's a magnet.
But I just think it's gonna be so important in the future, and that's why I was so happy to have you on, somebody who's spent almost their
entire career in magnet schools to be able to talk about this, and some of the issues with not only getting them started, but keeping them going.
So, in the introduction we found out that you worked at two magnets, one for a brief period of time, and then at the Visual and Performing Arts Magnet for quite a while.
Yes.
So I know it's a long time, I know it's a long time ago, Jane, but can you remember w- was the, was that first magnet … Can you talk about the first magnet, and then how you got to the Visual and Performing Arts?
The first one was Turner Elementary School, and to be honest with you, I don't even know if they're still I don't even know if they were technically a magnet school, but definitely a specialty school.
Their emphasis was environmental sciences.
So we had a center outside where they could grow things.
They had animals.
And it was very interesting.
It was in the southeast part of Fresno, and, it, like when they brought a cow from Fresno State one time and kids who lived, you know, in the valley and had no idea that milk came from cows.
It was just, it was crazy.
But that, I mean, it w- it was real.
These kids had no idea.
So it was a great opportunity for kids to access things that even though you might assume that they would know it living where we do they they just had a, you know, it was a great opportunity for them to see that.
I would say it was probably not as well articulated in terms of what was going on in the environmental center with the classroom.
We had scheduled times that we would go and see, and we certainly would you know, w- you, we would incorporate it into it, but it was not as extensive as Bullard Talent, I will say that.
But it was, you know, it was a good, but it was, that was right at the beginning of specialty schools, you know, kind of, of making their mark.
And I think again, as you already alluded to, starting it's kind of the easy part, but then maintaining it and you know, you it, it's, I liken it, it's the same thing in ministries.
You know, youth directors are, it's a very charismatic kind of a thing, and it's very contingent on the personnel.
And so to have structures in place that allow transitions to be successful is really important, so yeah.
Another thing that's interesting is the historical time period that this was happening.
Mm-hmm.
Because it was my understanding that in Fresno Unified is where we're gonna be talking about specifically was very much like other urban districts around the country is they were
developing these theme schools, magnet schools- to attract students to have parents choose to have their par- their students go someplace versus having to do some sort of forced busing.
Right.
And so it was a reaction to that.
So, so Turner Elementary with the environmental science, that was one of them.
Mm-hmm.
And you were there for a couple years, but then you couple years later you were at the Visual and Performing Arts Magnet.
Now, were you recruited?
Were you enticed?
Were you just wanted to be a part of that?
Tell us about that.
Well, in between, Turner and Bullard Talent, I was at Daly School.
And it was… It's actually Daly-Hackman.
It's charter school now.
And they had two campuses.
The main camps- campus was K4, and then the other campus was 5-6.
So, in that instance, I actually, I was recruited for that too.
I actually, funny story, was in bed because I stayed in bed for my first pregnancy with my son Robert, and the principal came and interviewed me in my bed.
But that school in the process of being there, Clytie Ramsey, who was the original director of Roosevelt School of the Arts was needed some more administrative
experience to go to a to do a principalship at a traditional school, not as a director of a school within a school, which Roosevelt School of the Arts is.
So I was working with her.
She moved on to Bullard Talent and recruited me to work there.
So I followed her there.
That's how I ended up there.
And just to clarify for listeners, Roosevelt School of the Arts is a high school that is a school within a school- Mm-hmm … that has an arts emphasis.
There's over 100- So we got to Bullard Talent and I know it had been in existence for a few years before you got there.
Could you talk a little bit about the history?
I'm sure you know about the history of how it got started.
Bullard Talent opened up in 1980, 1981.
And again, I think it was a reaction to what was going on in the district.
And mastery learning was a really big thing at that point.
And, You know, th- there was so much emphasis on minutia.
You know, they would break everything down to the teeniest, tiniest possible skill, and then access assess the heck out of it.
And then the record keeping for it was super laborious.
You know, you'd record things in, like, three different places.
One, I remember when we were doing that, and this is when I was at Turner you know, you had to have the information, you know, like in your grade book.
You had to have it on the Scantrons, and then you had to have it on a chart on the wall so if an administrator walked in that they could see exactly where you were.
So it was very tedious and not particularly engaging, and absolutely not authentic.
So I think people, you know, they weren't happy with that.
And Bullard Talent actually started out, it was primarily a gate school.
I- in order to get in there was an assessment process, and it was three-prong.
You would just take a test, and for the most part they were taking kids who already had mastered the kindergarten curriculum.
So many of the kids w- I, when I came in, I started in the middle school, and I would say at least half, if not two-thirds of the
kids were actually old enough to be high school freshmen because they'd all done a year of kindergarten and then assessed to get in.
And then they would also do an interview with them, and then they would do an observation with the child in a playgroup.
It wasn't completely pure but for the most part, it, th- these kids were super sharp kids, and also these were resourced families, so many of the kids came with a lot of private lessons: dance music.
So, You know, they were very resourced, and I think I said it yes- when we were talking.
If they weren't financially resourced, the parents were resourced in that they were in the know and that they wanted something more for their kids.
So it, it was a very special group of parents.
Also when it so the parents really, it was driven by parents.
They wanted something different for their kids.
They wanted it centered around the arts.
So the original staff had a lot of really highly trained arts people.
Not all of them were, but the- everyone was interested in using the arts as a vehicle for you know, delivering curriculum.
And the teachers would develop units that you know, had arts applications, but were predicated on the academic standards.
It was very organic.
They had music specialists theater specialists as well, but the classroom teachers in their own right, you know, were either highly interested in it and self-taught or trained, you know, in, in it.
So, it started out that way.
And then also they monitored parent involvement.
There was somebody who kept track of how many hours you donated, and if you know, you had to donate a certain amount of hours, which is something I think that we really need to go back to.
This idea of just dropping your kids off at school and not having any buy-in it's, it doesn't really work.
And then they also had grade requirements.
If you your grades were lower than a C, then you were asked to go elsewhere.
So, it was a very organic program.
They also, you again, had kids that were highly interested in the program and I think probably about Probably a little less than 10 years in it I think
the Office of Civil Rights got involved in it and found that it was there was not equal access, so they went to lottery in the late the late '80s.
I got there in '93.
I think late '80s, early '90s, they went to to a lottery system.
And I think that there was a little bit of a kind of dip in things at that point because you have kids that, you know, were coming with a lot of training and then kids with nothing, you know.
And I think there was some animosity.
You know, the the founding folks were not necessarily happy with the advent of the lottery system.
So let's clarify a couple things.
Number one, it's a K-8 school.
Yes.
And so you, when you say you were working in the middle school, you were working with grades six through eight, although the campus was one campus.
Yeah.
So all the students, so all the students were there.
The other thing I wanted to clarify is that you said that there was a performance aspect, that they were observed, but it was just how they got along in groups.
It wasn't like, "We're auditioning for this school-" No … "or no room." No.
They did not audition to come to the school.
I mean, I'm sure, and I don't know this for a fact, I'm sure they asked do they take dance lessons.
But, you know, what five-year-old knows what- … what they wanna be when they grow up, you know, besides, you know, My Little Pony's master or something.
But, you know, they I, I think they were looking for kids that would benefit, you know, or who would take advantage of the arts.
And so then as you described, you know, after the Office of Civil Rights got involved, then it was a pure lottery.
Mm-hmm.
A pure lottery system.
Well- And- as I don't know that it was pure.
Mm-hmm.
You know, because I, well, I just I don't know that it was completely pure.
But basically what would happen is w- if a child left, they would attempt to replace, you know, they w- they would have this list of kids that had either applied or expressed interest, whatever, and they would try to replace with a gender.
And so, like, if a third grade girl left, they would try to replace with a third grade girl.
But that kind of went by the wayside, and it went to strictly when people applied with… And this is, I think, more so once we got further into the lottery system.
It's just as your number came up, you know, then the next child in would come.
And my recollection of the lottery system was that, as you said, parents would just be interested in their kids being at the school.
They would sign up.
If they didn't make it, then they were on a waiting list.
And when I was there for the five years with you the waiting list was nearly as long as the number of kids who were in school.
I mean, people were very interested in getting their kids- Yes … into this school.
Well, and I will say over the years, the reasons for being interested in the school are not necessarily for the visual and performing arts.
And I think as the years have gone by there has been a larger, and larger number of people that are interested in the school not for the visual and performing arts which has diluted what we can accomplish.
And I think as we moved away from teachers that were, highly interested, highly trained in the visual performing arts.
We had to a- and who could articulate that without a lot of instruction.
We had to be more precise and definitive as to what the expectations f- were for the teachers and for the students.
And I would say that in the same way that we have students at Comfortable or Talent for not necessarily the visual performing arts, we have teachers as well.
You know, for the most part we have a stable clientele.
You know, I know when I was in not a magnet school I, you know, and it w- it wasn't personal, obviously.
But many of the schools, you know, have revolving doors of transiency, and that's really hard, you know, on teachers and students.
So teachers like that.
The way we Bullard Talent is structured currently we have specialists that deliver theater, art, movement and music classes.
And then the teachers are also expected to contribute to that as well.
And then ideally, you know, going along the origins of the school, there would be integration between the specialists and the classroom teachers.
You know, again, that's something that is diluted as you add people that are not necessarily interested in the program.
And we have had a lot of teachers that have been assigned there because they were displaced from whatever school that they were at, and they, you know, they were overage teachers.
And not that, you know, there's anything wrong with overage teachers, but that doesn't necessarily mean, you know, that you're interested in being there.
So, if they're not interested in it, the, being expected to develop a performance.
Our first through fifth grade teachers are expected annually to create a performance and that can be very daunting.
You know, yeah, there's lots of resources to assist you, but it's very daunting to do that if it's not your jam.
So, you know, that, that has been something that makes had, it makes it difficult.
So you brought up already a couple things that make maintaining the theme of the school the emphasis of the school tough.
One you mentioned was the the teachers and- I am, I'm I think we need to, you know, respect the contract, and at the same time realize that, that there's a unique program going on.
I would say, you know, a lot of schools, a lot of programs will say, "Oh, we're the shining star of the district," but Bullard Talent is.
There is not a school like that actually, you know, does the things that it does.
And so I think that's an issue that it never really got settled in that there needs to be some sort of dispensation for the school as you are going
through the contract, you know, you know, honoring the contract, but you've got, as what I say, Bullard Talent was a shining, shining example of the arts.
There are other programs within the district that also are doing a good job.
I mean, we've got a high school in West Fresno that shows up on the top, you know, 100 high schools in the country every year.
It's a school within a school, but that program needs to be protected because of its uniqueness and how well it does.
So- Well, I if we're gonna move towards thematic, specialty magnet, whatever you wanna call them, schools I think the whole union thing has to be looked at.
So for example I think this applies to all schools, but I can only speak to my experience.
At Bullard Talent, we do 80 extra events a year, okay?
Well, 80 extra events means that there's chair setup, that there's you know, a huge amount of facilities used, and then add to it also that prior to COVID, we had an extended day program that maxed out at 100 students.
With the advent of everybody's gonna get, you know, extended day care, we do 300 kids now, which means that one little portable isn't gonna fly.
So, we don't h- we don't have a theater.
We have a multipurpose room that we have to share with extended day, with the traditional uses of it, you know, lunch assemblies and then rehearsals.
All of those things, and in, in the midst of all of that, we don't get any extra custodial So we ha- you know our janitors are running ragged.
They are running ragged to keep up with the demands.
And we've been very fortunate to have you know, really hardworking guys, you know, that… and gals.
We had some really great gals, too.
That they cannot keep up with it, and we've gone round and round with the union and we s- You know, there's a formula for the square footage of the school, and the fact that we do 80 extra events a year that means absolutely nothing.
There are I'm just many things where the school needs agency.
And I'm gonna just go out on a limb here because this is something for me that is phenomenally frustrating, is we have very limited funding that's provided by the district.
And when the school started, you know, the 150, they got $150,000, that paid for the specialists, that paid for the materials to manage the program.
Well, that, that doesn't pay for, you know, anything now.
And yet we're required to do things that other middle schools do because that's what other middle schools do.
And, you know, my biggest complaint, I'll just be honest, is sports.
And I want to be very clear when I talk about sports.
I have six sons.
I have spent thousands and thousands of dollars on sports.
I am not anti-sports.
But when you have a limited amount of resources, and e- more importantly, we have a limited number of students.
Our middle school has about 300 students.
And they when the students are presented with all these incredible visual performing arts opportunities and then sports as well they want to do both.
And, you know, for years it's been argued, "Well, why can't they do bo- both?" When would you ever ask a sports team wouldn't a, when would a coach ever agree to let somebody miss two days a week of practice?
It never, ever would that be acceptable.
But when you have children who participate in sports our elite groups if the…
And it's up to the director to whether or not a child can participate or not.
They have to let them go t- two days a week you know, we should be able to say, "If sports is what you want, you should go to another school." W- we
the, to me the number one problem with maintaining specialty magnet, thematic, whatever you wanna call them, schools, is that they have to have agency.
And if thematic schools is a thing of the future, then we need to look at it rather than say every school has to offer certain… I mean, there, there are certain things.
You know, everybody has to provide, you know, the standard curriculum, but how you do that doesn't have to be the same.
Yeah.
Again, to- That can be different
to clarify something that you just said, you're not talking about when you're talking about missing rehearsals, you're talking about the elite groups,
the groups that you have to audition to be in, which there is a very competitive, it's very competitive at Buller Talent to get into these groups.
You have groups, you know, you have to get into dance groups.
I mean, you probably have kids that have been through the entire dance program, which is provided for at Buller Talent.
And so it's, And I wanna interject one thing here too, 'cause this is something I feel strongly about.
I taught at the tail end of the pre-lottery days, and the bulk of my time at Buller Talent has been lottery.
And I am very much a fav- in favor of lottery K-5.
I don't think first… in fact, e- every child in the district at every school should be getting what we offer K-5.
Every single child should.
But by fifth grade, students know whether they like this or not And kids who in the fifth grade say, "I don't wanna be in choir.
I don't wanna be in band.
I don't wanna be in art.
I don't wanna be in dance," we should help them find other accommodations for middle school. I think that everyone should have to reapply for
the middle school, and I'm not talking about an audition. I'm talking about, "Okay, Susie, you've been at Bullard Talent since kindergarten.
What group do you see yourself shooting for?
What what about the arts is interesting to you?" And if the answer is nothing, they shouldn't be there.
And we should be able- So let me- And that's, that, that's another agency piece.
We should not have to have students be in a place that they don't wanna be.
And I think it's, You know, some people just don't like to perform.
Some people don't like anything about it.
By the time they're in fifth grade, they know what they like and what they don't like.
And many of our students are there because the parents think it's a safe place.
The home school's not a safe place, you know, or it's perceived as such.
And that, that is not a reason to be at the school, and it dilutes the program.
So let- So let's, let- There's, there… Many aspects of agency that s- these schools need to have.
So let me go back to the second point.
So you had talked about teachers, and we talked about teachers and the school needs agency in how they select teachers for this extra hard work.
I mean, I talked to two teachers the other day, and that's the first thing that they said.
It's hard work, but it's worth it.
It's a different work.
Okay.
And I wanna qualify that, too.
Okay.
Teachers at Bullard Talent, and this is probably gonna offend some teachers, they're not working harder than other teachers.
It is different.
So to, to do what we do at Bullard Talent, one thing that makes it incredibly easier is that we don't have the transiency.
Well- We have a very supportive… it's different, and I wanna be very clear about it.
There are some things that teachers at Bullard Talent get that teachers at other schools don't get.
So it's just different.
It's different.
And I think teacher- Yeah … teaching in general is hard work.
And I will go one step further at the risk of offending again using religious metaphors, but it is missionary work.
It is absolutely missionary work.
And you know, you're not gonna get rich doing it.
I think there's an incredible amount of satisfaction.
And I'm gonna tie something back that I started to say that I didn't finish.
I'm very pro the lottery because I would argue that the results that we get are no different than pre-lottery days It's harder to get those results because the kids don't come with training.
But at the end of the day, pre-lottery you know, these kids were already trained.
Yeah.
I- you know it's like when … A- and this'll probably make people mad when I say this too, but like at Manchester Gate when they have high test scores, well, of course they do.
They have admission requirements.
You know?
When, now when we do things it is a function of what we provided, and I find that way more satisfying than having a kid that was already trained deliver a stellar performance.
Now, everyone may not feel that way.
That is personally how I feel.
That, Okay.
Well, I was with you, and I'm with you on that as well because I've always worked at schools and I was a coach.
I was, you know, I was a coach, and it was always much more- Much more g- enjoyment and fulfillment when you took somebody that was five foot four and you taught them how to be a quarterback versus somebody who's been, you know.
So I get that.
I'm with you on that 100%.
And I want, and I wanna go back to something that you talk about with regards, you know, you talk about K five and then maybe six eight that, that you come back again.
Because I think it should be clear for teachers, you're coming here, this is the deal.
Th- this is the deal.
And again, the school needs to have some agency, and if this is not for you, no hard feelings.
You know, this is not for you, no hard feelings.
Okay.
And the same thing with with the parents.
This is what we're doing, okay?
And I think you have… I think you nailed it with respect to why kids why parents will choose Buller Talent.
In fact, it was my doctoral research.
And I found and it was so interesting the findings, where one of the findings was that if you took a look at why the parents chose and signed up, they had to take action to get their kids in.
The most affluent parents, they wanted their kids there because it was a K-8 school, and they didn't have to expose their kids to the chaos of a middle school.
They felt it was just more calm, more just a more stable thing.
And I wanna interrupt you just for a minute too.
I do not understand why the K-8 model is not employed m- more, because there are so many positives for it.
And the bottom line is this: there should never be 1,300 13-year-olds in one place.
There, that, that is just criminal.
Okay, Jane.
And at two-year programs, nobody, the parents don't get involved, the kids don't get involved.
And that's why when you walk onto a traditional middle school campus, they look like high schoolers, because they're looking to what's next.
At a K-8 school, you know, when you're in the eighth grade and you're getting a little big for your britches, well, that kindergarten teacher who remembers when you urinated on the carpet and used to cry every day for your mom, you know, that's very humbling.
Yes.
Yeah.
Our it's like, to me, I don't get it.
That's like the best.
I- It's absolute best … i'm with you.
I'm with you, Jane.
So just to get back to the findings of the research.
Sorry.
Oh, no, that's okay.
That's okay.
So, so again, the more affluent parents, they wanted the kids there for because to avoid middle school.
They weren't that, there weren't that many parents who were there for the arts, because they had the resources to go out, get individual lessons, be in other groups, et cetera, et cetera.
The lowest resource the poorest, lowest socioeconomics they were there.
They didn't know what the school was about, but they knew that it was safe and it was a good school.
They couldn't articulate what a good school is, but that's why they chose it.
It was the middle group who were there for the education and for the arts because they didn't have the resources to provide all of these things.
So- And the fact that the parents will secure that for their kids is a resource.
Yes.
That is a resource.
Yeah.
So here's the other thing that's happening.
So you've got your Bowler talent.
They come in kindergarten, and then, what is it, at the end of second grade they have the opportunity to test out to go to a gate school.
Yes.
So what happens?
You've got a school with agency that is taking people with criteria that Buller Talent, this magnet school doesn't, other than a lottery, and those kids are gonna get selected.
And who's gonna fill their spots?
Who's on the waiting list?
Then you get to- So you've got kids that are already behind- … you know, and trying to bring them up to speed, and yes, I know where you're going next with this.
Yeah.
And then the next, we got a- we've got the d- you know, the- the junior high.
We haven't talked- Well, but the, no, there's a much bigger problem before- besides junior high Oh, go ahead.
Go ahead.
Fourth grade.
We go from class size reduction to a full size.
So, you know, in- in the K3 they're 24, 25.
And this is not qu- as profound as it's been in the past because, you know, the latest union, you know, agreement is we went from 32 being the the max for the fifth grade class up- up through fifth grade to sixth grade.
It's down to 28 now.
But what would happen at our school in fourth grade which was even worse than adding kids in second grade, is adding what amounted to a full class of kids in the fourth grade.
So kids who'd had no visual performing arts experiences are now dropped into the program and, you know, sometimes you'd get a kid that had private training, but more often than not, you know, and a lot
of times it, what we'll get, if we I- I think we have a disproportionate number of kids that have problems, whatever those problems may be, and they're hoping that Buller Talent will solve those problems.
And so you have this high concentration of kids that were not successful coming into the fourth grade all at once, and you're trying to acculturate them.
You're trying to bring them up to speed and that is incredibly difficult.
And then just add to it that fourth grade academically is a very difficult year anyway.
It's a huge trans- transition from third to fourth grade, the expectations.
There's many things that make fourth grade a really hard year.
So it's like a- a triple whammy, you know, at our school 'cause you've got all these kids.
And even now with the reduction in the number of, the max of number of kids in the intermediate grades, it's still a very significant number of children and it's hard for everyone.
It's hard for the kids, it's hard for the parents, you know, it's hard for the teachers.
It's really hard.
And so as you talk about all these issues, it's not that we don't want these kids.
It's a- Not at all … it's about the integrity of the program.
You've got a high quality program.
How can we as a district, as a site, whatever, come up with policies and procedures that continue to support and maintain this high quality program?
Because if it's not, it's gonna be gone.
And usually these programs have a champion.
Have a champion, somebody who's been there a while.
And I'm gonna tell you, Jane you know, I'm concerned because you've been that champion for 30 years.
I remember f- Well, I wanna say the guy that's taking my place, Robert Sanchez, is fantastic, and he's gonna, he's gonna knock it out of the park.
I'm sure he will.
He's gonna do really well.
But there's, it's an uphill battle, without a doubt.
It's not only an uphill battle, but y- you have to understand the geography of that hill, and that's one of the things that, that you knew.
I remember I was telling this story the other day to to a couple of teachers who we had worked with there together, and I remember when I was there my first year there, the principal was, it was also her first year there.
And I remember being in a meeting with you and who was the director of, I don't know what her title was the director of the arts.
Yeah.
And I think we were going through a budget.
And she in this very condescending voice said, "Two more administrators we have to train." And absolutely she w- she was correct because the things that were happening
were so different, and it was the difference that made the difference that made the people wanna come to the program and work hard for those 80 extra performances a year.
Well, there, there are so many assumptions about Bullard Talents.
Like, first of all, that every child that come wants to be there, that they are handpicked, that they auditioned, that they're super talented.
I we… The first trip that we took to out of state it wasn't the first trip that we took, but it was the first trip that it was the beginning of the way we travel currently.
We operated under the motto "Ordinary kids doing extraordinary things." We are not, and this is no slam to the children we take just regular kids.
Yes.
And we we provide a lot of opportunity.
And and we get results.
But it is increasingly difficult when there are just so many roadblocks.
I, my own personal feeling is, you know, again, this idea of being a missionary.
Every single person who works at that school from the top I don't like saying top to the bottom, but from site administration down to support staff has to be passionate about what we do.
Yeah.
And if there's a breakdown anywhere, it doesn't work.
And you can't half it.
You know?
You either believe that it works or you don't.
And, you know, again, I don't mean to belabor the sports point, but For so, and honestly, you know, for me, in my groups I didn't allow sports.
And I, when I quit allowing kids to be in sports, the very first big musical I did at Bullard Talent was The Music Man, and I was working with, again, students who were really a year older.
And it was just this incredible show because these kids had so much private training.
They were so wise beyond their years.
They just did a phenomenal job of it.
I, and I'm proud of all the shows that we've done, so I don't wanna m- make it sound like I was more proud of this one.
But in the course of arranging for the documentation of the show in portraiture, a child missed the photo sessions, and they didn't…
Because they were in sports.
They didn't yell at the coach.
They yelled at me.
You know, when there's a championship game and a final rehearsal, I know our dance people often, if you're not there for the choreography, you're not in the number.
Well, we had a little girl who was an incredible athlete and also an incredible dancer, but she missed so much that of the, you know, the eight dances that they presented at the end of the year, she was in one.
They didn't yell at the coaches.
Yeah.
They yelled at the teacher, the dance teacher.
You know, I just feel like, a- and for, i- if we c- take it out of the Bullard Talent thing, the way that you make decisions is you ask yourself the question.
And there's all kinds of really great things going on.
You can't do everything.
There's X amount of time.
And one of the things I find with our kids who do engage in our program, they want to do everything.
They want to do everything.
And if you offer them something more, they will do it.
But there's only so many hours in the day.
These are children.
They can only do so much.
And many of our programs are very demanding.
It, you can't keep offering things.
You we, h- here's a an example, and it was an arts option.
We had the last group that we added that I, you know, I would say we can't add any more groups because we don't have the space, we don't have the staff, and the kids that are already in 15 groups wanna be in it too.
We added mariachi, which is a very popular group on our campus.
We tried to add folklorico, which would be a natural thing to do with it.
It was too much.
It broke the bank.
Yeah.
It was too much.
You can only do so much.
And so when you add all these things in and people think, you know, again, they think I'm anti-sports.
They think I don't like this.
I don't or whatever.
Again, just take it out of the visual performing arts area.
If you're adding something and it doesn't improve the program- Then don't do it.
That's- Well, and I- That is, that's the measure.
And if you are adding things that don't support the program, then you're diluting it.
Then you're then you're, th- you're lessening it.
And I feel like that is the problem, is that, that we feel like we have to do everything.
It is not possible to do everything, and we have to accept that we're not good enough to do everything.
We're not that good.
Well, I think it gets back to what I said in the beginning, is that you don't have to be everything if you've identified who you are.
Because once you've id- but you do.
You do, right?
Well, hang on.
And the parents are saying- Hang on But once you've identified who you are, now you can say, "This is why we don't do that. There there's a reason why we don't do that."
But if it's not known upfront, and if there's not a place to do that within the district, within a private school, with- within sports leagues or whatever, these…
You know, all the recreational leagues, then it becomes a problem.
But the reality is there is a place for that, but you have to decide.
You have to decide, "If you're coming to school here, this is who we are. No hard feelings if you don't wanna come." The b- listeners of this podcast will be familiar with the name Robert Pondiscio.
Robert Pondiscio is a big advocate for classic education and, you know, just really, you know, knowledge base, cultural literacy, et cetera.
And he said he moved his… They moved so his daughter could be in a better place for sports, because that's what the school was and that's what they wanted to do.
And I think that's gonna be part of the issue, because we're, we need to let teachers know "This is who we are.
This is what we do." This is… We have to let the parents know, "This is who we are.
This is what we do.
And by the way, these are all the things we don't do." But we can't do that.
L- like, you c- can't just have agency, because you have to have a system of these schools where they can get what they need.
Because if you're the only choice of the of a great place that's safe, that's K8 we're gonna run into these problems every time.
Right.
But I do think that it is absolutely a paradigm shift at the downtown level.
You know, Like, I'll go to the, back to the custodial thing.
You know, we should be allocated more custodial services and then maybe there's something else that we don't need.
Like, like to me, and I, you know, again I've only used the sports thing because it's heavy on my heart, but if we could have the money that is allocated for sports
And I know that they're different pots.
I get… Like, to me, I, it, to me what would make sense is this is how much money every school gets.
That's where the equity is.
Every school gets X amount of dollars.
Now, you use that money just to to acquire the things that support your mission.
That's equitable.
It's not equitable that at Bullard Talent we're expected to do everything that everybody else does.
And like, for example, with sports, they don't pay for uniforms, they don't pay for travel costs, they don't pay for refs.
Don't pay for anything.
I, the bulk of my time is spent raising money You know, and Randy Berger, you know Randy, one of my favorite things that he says is that when you're a director, 90% of what you're doing is production work.
The directing is the which is the best part.
Yeah.
That's the fun part.
About 10% of what we do.
Well, here's the irony of the sports that got in your way.
If I had a stu- if I had a kid, let's say I've got a son who, or a d- a daughter.
That's how old I am.
Oh, wait.
I'm thinking of a son.
You do have a daughter.
I do have a daughter.
You do have a daughter.
Okay.
You do have a daughter.
And wanted to be in basketball, and I'd say, "Honey, let's go look at the basketball court." And they'd say, "Well, there's no gym.
I'm playing on asphalt." You're right.
So, so there, the first- But we here's the trick, though.
Here's the thing.
I think people come to our school for sports because the reality is, and maybe this has changed since my kids were little, but when they were at Tenaya,
for example if you weren't in club ball, if you weren't a club soccer player or a club ba- baseball player, you weren't gonna get on those teams.
You could play at Bullard Talent.
You could be… we win in our league.
We we- We win in our league … we have a different division.
We are in the different division.
That's absolutely right.
And so- A- and so to me, that is totally disingenuous anyway, you know?
That's what I'm telling you.
That's what I'm saying.
That's what I'm trying to say.
But that is such a, that is such a huge… I mean, people feel, the sportspeople feel… I shouldn't question it, because I feel just as strongly that they do that sports should be offered.
To me, Bullard Talent cannot go any further
Unless we stop offering sports and I'm gonna go broader than that, and I'm gonna agree with you, and they're not gonna stop offering sports until
there are options for parents that provide the safety the good education, whatever good, whatever that means, that it's a good school- Right
and that it's K8.
So there have to be other options besides, "Oh, I'm going to this because I can, my kid can be… He's not good enough to be in a travel team
but he's good enough to be in the lower level league on a school team." It can't… W- what I'm saying is it has to be a system of these schools.
Yeah, I agree with you.
Okay, it's time to stop then.
Oh, I, you know, you can die happy now, right?
I'm gonna write that down.
I agree with you.
I'm gonna write that down.
Okay, so okay.
So I've asked you a lot of questions, Jane.
Do you have any questions for me?
Okay, so, we're gonna generalize, this question.
So let's assume that we have a fully developed thematic magnet specialty school program, and there's all kinds of options.
And you would assume that there would be teachers, specialists a principal, you know, the traditional support staff.
What is one position that you think every school should also have?
It doesn't currently exist Oh, man To make, to m- to make these schools… I'll give you a hint.
You did that for us when you were at Bullard Talent.
tell me what you're thinking, and then I can give you my analysis of your answer.
Okay.
You, we always joked and said, "You look good in a suit."
No.
I think every single school needs somebody who is, their job is to do the PR for the school.
Because I know myself, I know what needs to be done.
I say this like I'm still working.
I'm not.
Yeah.
I knew what needed to be done.
I knew what needed to be done.
There were not enough hours in the day for me to hustle, and I think part of the problem with thematic schools is that there's not enough hustling being done.
And when you were at, I remember you got the first keyboard lab.
You got it done because, and I'm not saying that you weren't doing anything, but you were not tied to a classroom.
You were not tied to a group.
So you could go and be the suit.
You could go and be the face.
You could go and represent us.
So I think for these schools to be successful, they need a suit.
They need somebody whose job is to promote the school so that, that mission is very clear.
So, all, if all of these schools become, you know, the winning team and the whole bandwagon thing where people wanna go with the winning team, they wanna jump on that bandwagon, we need somebody to do that authentically.
Authentically and I did that, and I was able to do that, and I was able to do that.
You were good at it.
You were very good at it … bec- b- well, because I believed in it so much.
I mean, you know, my daughter came, we tried a couple years to get in the lottery, and she got in fourth grade, and she was, i'm gonna I don't usually use this kind of language, but she was quiet.
In fact, my dad would say, "She wouldn't say shit if she had a mouthful." That's how quiet she was.
I remember that.
She was very quiet.
She was.
So she came in fourth grade.
In a month and a half, there was a talent show that was for the entire community, and she was up there performing And I'm getting- But Cl- I'm getting emotional talking about it.
Because- Well,
I, let me let me interject something here too- Okay … 'cause it speaks to another really important thing.
Obviously we have students that are underprivileged on a variety of levels, and we spend a lot of time on those kids.
But Celeste is a really good example of a kid.
She know … She comes from a good family.
Her parents are resourced.
Her parents are advocating for her.
But here's a child who's very shy, and I have an example of a student.
In fact he's going to college next year, and one of his questions for his college app was to write about a teacher who had ma- made an impact on him, and he wrote about me.
This child was super bright- Fantastic family.
I, he came to me in the sixth grade.
He was so emotionally constipated.
He could not step out.
If he couldn't be perfect, he couldn't do it.
And from the outside looking in, this child looked defiant, and he was like the furthest one could get.
He was absolutely, totally, and completely compliant, but he could not step out of his space- Yeah
enough.
He is gonna be successful no matter what he does.
Whether he gets a lead in the show or not is irrelevant.
But when I was able to have the opportunity to work… And again, this is a resource kid.
This is not a poor kid.
This is not a disadvantaged kid.
This is a kid who's got it all already, and he's gonna be just fine.
But to be able to help him through that emotional constipation, to step out of the perfectionism that was crippling, that shut him down to where he couldn't do anything w- the these programs allow… And it's not just, you know, Buller Talent.
When you have kids that are doing something that they like, that they're engaged in, and it matters to them, then you can take them on regardless of whether they're disadvantaged or advantaged.
And, a- and to me, Celeste was like that.
Mm-hmm.
It's not it's not just about… That we affected kids from all walks of life.
There was another kid I remember who just a dad was a doctor, and he you know, came across, the kid came across super arrogant, whatever, and we didn't take him in groups when he was younger.
And i- in the eighth grade, it was like we totally turned this kid around.
Totally turned this kid around.
And it's like to me, those are the satisfying things.
And it's, I can tell you the same thing about a child that's, you know, that struggled and struggled.
And I w- doing the middle school play was always my favorite thing, to have you know, the kindergarten teacher say, "Oh my God, that's the kid who cried every day for 95 days," you know?
And they're up there doing this.
There, there were so many success stories.
And I think it, one other thing is that it's so critical to have leadership that absolutely believes that it, whatever your program is, in the case of Buller Talent, the Virgin Performing Arts, that it is life-changing.
That it is life-changing.
And that does not mean you need to be a performer.
A patron is just fine.
You have to believe with your heart that whatever your specialty is, that it is going to open doors and change this person for good, you know?
And if you don't have that at the top- and that coloring everything that happens at this school, you're not gonna succeed.
Amen.
Amen.
Jane, it has been wonderful having an opportunity to talk to you and and to see you even though it's virtually.
I know.
Mm-hmm.
And I hope we'll be able to talk again soon.
All righty.
Well, thank you for having me, and I agree with you, Buller Talent is a very special place, and my hope is that it continues.
Gene Tavernetti: If you're enjoying these podcasts, tell a friend.
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