Transformation is Necessary: LANE Alpha at the NPN 2018 Annual Conference

This episode was recorded at the NPN Annual Conference in Pittsburgh, PA in December 2018. In this episode the LANE Alpha Cohort shares their take on what is required to make large organizational shifts.

What is TACtile?

TACtile is the podcast for Leveraging a Network for Equity (LANE) a program of the National Performance Network. This podcast discusses practical tools and concepts designed to transform the field of Arts and Culture towards equity and justice. This podcast is produced by LANE Cohort members, Sage Crump and is edited by Jazz Franklin.

Sage Crump: Thank you for tuning into TacTILE, a practical guide to transforming arts and culture. This is the podcast of LANE, Leveraging a Network for Equity, a program of the National Performance Network funded by the Andrew W Mellon foundation. LANE offers organizations of color and and geographically isolated organizations time and resources to grow their organizational infrastructure in ways that are culturally authentic and move the field towards justice. I'm Sage Crump, programs specialist for LANE. In this podcast, we share concepts and practices connected to the way LANE organizations navigate great change. This was recorded during the National Performance Network annual conference in December of 2018 in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. The following content is from the idea forum entitled, Transformation is Necessary.

SC: LANE Live. This is our Alpha Cohort. (applause) Also wanna say hello to whoever might be watching out there on the internets. We're streaming live, so, Hey everybody. Thank you for deciding to join us. And I also wanna acknowledge that this is gonna be the lead podcast in our podcast called TACtile, TACtile stands for, Transforming Art and Culture, TACtile. Practical ways art and culture transforms the world. So it's really amazing that we get to start that off with this amazing group of figures in our field and this Alpha cohort that we're really excited to be a part of and learn from. (Audience member whoops). Whoo! So why don't we do introductions first. Cause that will be important somewhere later down the road when somebody's listening to this, right? (2:25) I'm Sage Crump. I am the programs specialist for Leveraging A Network for Equity, LANE, is a program of the National Performance Network.

Jonathan Clark: Hello, my name is Jonathan Clark. I am the executive support manager at the Carpetbag Theater in Knoxville, Tennessee, and I use he/him/his pronouns.

Linda Parris Bailey: Hi; I'm Linda Parris Bailey. I'm the executive director of the Carpetbag Theater in Knoxville Tennessee. She/her are my pronouns. And, good afternoon.

Tanya Mote: Hi there; I'm Tanya Mote. I'm the executive director at Su Teatro in Denver, Colorado, and I use she and her pronouns.

Damia Khanboubi: Hi. I'm Damia Khanboubi she/her. I am the director of community collaboration and marketing at Junebug productions in New Orleans, Louisiana.

Stephanie McKee-Anderson: Hi, I'm Stephanie McKee Anderson she/her. I'm the Executive Artistic Director of Junebug Productions in New Orleans.

Adonis White Price: Hi, I'm Adonis White Price, my pronouns are she/her/hers, and I'm the director of finance at Junebug Productions in New Orleans, Louisiana.

Nina Yarbrough: Good afternoon, everybody. My name is Nina Yarbrough. I'm the business development manager at the Central District Forum for Arts and Ideas located in Seattle, Washington. And I use she/her pronouns.

Sharon Nyrie Williams: What's good? My name is Sharon Nyrie Williams. I'm the Executive Director for the Central District Forum for Arts and Ideas in Seattle, Washington, and I use she/her pronouns. (4:06)

Tony Garcia: Tony Garcia, executive artistic director, Su Teatro Cultural and Performing Arts Center in Denver Colorado, he/him.

Mica Garcia De Benavidez: Hi, I'm Mica Garcia De Benavidez, she/her. I'm managing director at Su Teatro in Denver.

SC: And we wanna say a big shout out to MACLA, who is our other cohort member who is based out of San Jose, California, who could not be with us today, but just wanted to bring MACLA in the mix, cause that rounds out the six organizations. Six brave, brave souls. (cheering)

TG: Do we wanna give MACLA's full name? Movimiento De Arte y Cultura LatinoAmericana.

SC: Please.

TG: Movimiento de Arte y Cultura LatinoAmericana.

SC: And also, The Myrna Loy is also one of our cohort members that is not in the room with us, so, much love to Kryss. So, much love to Myrna Loy, and appreciate them, and when I say brave souls, what I mean is, three years ago, the people in front of you decided to embark on deep organizational change on a journey to think about how their organizations function. What does health look like for themselves, and how they can take advantage of the resources of this program called LANE to make those changes. I always say one of my favorite lines or the best line of the opening of any book is Toni Cade Bambara's The Salt Eaters, and the first line of The Salt Eaters is, "Are you sure you want to be made well, honey? Because being made well is no easy thing." And so, that's why we're calling this panel, "Transformation is Necessary." Cause it's not just about what's happening outside, but what's happening inside the organization that makes the greatest difference. So they have graciously come in today to share some of what their journey has been. We're, we're--, it's a four year process with LANE, and they are two and a half in. (6:14) So, change is happening, change is happening. So, we're gonna do this in a couple of rounds. We reached out to the network. We asked people to send in some questions that they wanted to ask the Alpha cohort, so I'm gonna moderate a little bit of that, and then I'm gonna step out of the way, and I'm gonna let them ask questions of each other, cause that's also really rich. Cause they're inside, so they ask questions that those of us on the outside, sort of, looking in wouldn't even think to ask. So, we wanna have an opportunity for them to just ask each other things and see what comes up, and then we'll just kind of have a moment of synthesis at the tail end, does that sound okay?

TG: Yes.

SC: So, the first question we've got is, What tools are you using to navigate this time of great change? And I say tools in the largest sense of the word, right? What tools are you using to navigate this time of great change within our organizations?
Unknown: The mic passes to the spreadsheet queen.

KH: We were--, part of this program gave us some tools to look into our finances in a completely different framework. So, one of the things that has been transformative about the Myrna Loy was the idea that we could use our financial spreadsheets as a moral document to look into how are we perpetuating the structure of the Myrna Loy to exploit people in order to keep the organization alive? So, we work on underpaying and overworking everybody because that's the assumption that how nonprofits would. And because, as Rosie has said, that's how we all have done it over all these years. And is that really a good method for sustainability? (8:18) And so we not only had to challenge our finances and really query into, Where's the money coming from and how much does this really cost? But because of the equity framework of LANE, the true cost is not just in dollars, the true cost is also in how healthy are you as a human being? How intent is your organization? How are your structures designed to make you sick or to drive your best employees away so that they can support their families? And when you are looking at long term sustainability, you have to look at that, and that has been really transformative for our organization, and I think for a lot of us.

SC: Other thoughts?

TG: No, not me; I was gonna ask Mica if she wanted to do something. Mica loves spreadsheets, too.

MGdB: I think one of the first things that we learned in this LANE process was that--, one of the first things that happened is the Nonprofit Finance Fund like looked into our finances and gave us all of these beautiful spreadsheets and tools to really use, and really--, one of the first things we learned was finding--, being able to tell--. We tell stories all the time, that's part of the work that everyone does in telling our stories. But we don't think about making sure that funders and others understand our whole story, our financial outlook, hearing it from our words and understanding that we know what it is; we know what waters we're navigating, and how to get--. And the NFF really provided empowerment to navigate those waters and to have ownership of that story. So utilizing those tools and being able to start to clean up that picture; start to make it come from a better--, from, not just to understand where it's coming from from a better place--. I mean, the first thing that our--, that the first NFF person we talked to was like, Fire your editor, fire your bookkeeper, cause your books look awful, and they're not been kept the way they need to be kept, and--. It's been a process, but just having--, knowing that--, I knew something was wrong, but I didn't know that I was right that something was wrong. (10:56) So just knowing that I could say, Okay, these people are really smart. They know what they're doing. And they're looking at this and they're telling me that I'm looking at it correctly, and that we need to fix it and we need to be able do that, so that's been super valuable in this process.

NY: Hi everybody. I'm new to NPN. New to CDForum and loving it. I would say from a--, sort of from an outsider in perspective, although I'm slowly becoming an insider the longer that I'm with the organization, I think the process itself of being with LANE has been, like, the greatest tool. Because I came to CDForum as an intern four years ago when I moved to Seattle and met Sharon. And seeing what she was doing with the organization as a sole employee, and then, coming back as a hired staff, I can see that the--, the process of having to go through the LANE application, LOI, being in community with these people. I've seen the transformation of the Central District Forum. Because in that process what's had to happen is an, is an excavation of everything that CDForum, and I'm sure the other organizations, what is it that we do, and you have to question all of your assumptions. (12:18) Whether's its financial, whether it's mission, whether it's succession and the future--, I would say that's my observation is that the greatest tool has been being in LANE, and I think it's a testament to NPN and to the Mellon foundation for recognizing that this is something that needs to be invested in, and hopefully, they'll be able to leverage their own power to get their other fellow large funders to replicate it, because having organizations go through this process is how sustainability happens, because you have to do all of those things in order to move forward.

SMA: I think also--, I think one of our greatest tools is actually the artwork itself. And, and in the many ways that we apply artistic practice to organizing practices, applying that internally and externally I think has been really helpful. I mean, for us, I think it's looking at communication being one of those things and really kind of improving--, improving how we communicate but also having the space--. I think being in LANE allows us the space to really understand and be able to really, I think, communicate effectively what it is that we're doing. I'll give an example. This idea around evaluation processes. Or as I say, what happens between point A and point B is very linear, when we sit and we think about that. One of the ways that we've begun to talk about our work is, and the complexity of our work is that that is not the journey, and the learning doesn't just happen between point A and point B, but with a lot of us, because we're talking about communities of color that either we're working in, or communities of color that are leading these organizations, that that work is circular, and if you look at it as revolutions around the sun, that each time it goes around, you're going to find something else in that journey. And that was probably the clearest that I had never really described what happens and why I was feeling a way to being pushed to talk about what happens between--in a year. What happens in a year? (14:46) Well, I can tell you about tell you about what happened in a year but that doesn't mean that if I plot you all the same things in that year, that the same outcome will happen. That was one of the same things that I felt really good about and felt confident in our ability to have those conversations, and this is one of the few spaces that understood that thinking.

LPB: Well, one of the things for, for Carpetbag was that when we started the LANE project, we had been doing succession planning, so there was--. We had tilled some soil, we had dug in, you know, and we began to think about what the future was looking like, and we, we began from that point of view, and what happened in LANE is that we got a tractor, you know. And we, we had to learn to drive the tractor, and we had to, you know, figure out what tools came behind the tractor, and, and, and LANE provided that in the way of advisors and consultants and, and certainly resources, but I, I, I kind of can't go just to, like, the rose without talking about you know, the, the soil that was tilled before, and how we had been able to use that. You know, we've looked at our, our resource pool. What did we have and what could we build upon, and when we, we, we did that, then LANE was there to help us build upon those things that we, we, we had as assets that we couldn't use. (16:35) So, that was one of the--, I think that's an important tool that we used.

TM:I think for me, one of the things that I've found most valuable as a tool is the idea or the concept of emergent strategy, which is one of the pillars for the LANE program. Emergent strategy is, is a distillation of some movement building values, some of them that originated with Grace Lee Boggs in Detroit. But it pulls on a lot of other realms of movement building and thinking, including Octavia Butler's work and Margaret Wheatley, her book, the Leadership and the New Science. And some of the pieces of that that I've found most helpful is the idea that change happens incrementally, and that there--, it's a practice and that there are many iterations, and I really changed my thinking about what's happening, whereas it's--, it is emergent, and it's very much adjusting and adapting and moving slowly and practicing and not necessarily getting it right, and it's not--, LANE is not like a lightning bolt that just happens and suddenly your organization has changed. It's--, it's a continuation of work that you've been doing, just with a lot more support. Also, the idea that when we talk about change, it doesn't--and we talk about scaling, it doesn't necessarily have to be scaling up and becoming a much larger organization, it can be working in a small context and continuing to work in a small context. (18:28) And then lastly, that a lot of the change that we're trying to make starts with individual change, and individual transformation. So, especially as we're going through this time that is forcing us to shift and to grow, that that's personal transformation as much as it is institutional transformation. And trying to just hold myself accountable during that time to push my comfort zone and to really look at some of the things that keep me from being successful individually and being more vulnerable and transparent about that has been really important.

SC: Thank you all. I'm over here, like, taking notes. I hope you are as well. There's so many gems. So many gems in that form communications, to complexities, to individuals, relationships between individual and organizational, and I'm, I'm gonna kinda circle back around to, to something you started Stephanie around this, What does change look like, if not between A and B, and we meet--, we have a monthly call in which we all talk, and we had a call, I think it was like in September, and I was like, Look, I think there's more money for consulting. We can maybe fund--, and folks were like, I've had enough change. I need a minute to breathe, you know, stop asking me what I need--, stop. I need to finish what's on my plate. You know, and so I would love to hear some reflections about like, how to navigate, you know, How do you navigate through change, like, if it's overwhelming. When does it feel overwhelming? When do you decide, like, Okay, I need to take a pause, what--. How does reflection play into how you all are thinking about the ways in which your organizations are shifting? Sharon's got--. Sharon's reaching. Somebody hand Sharon a mic? (20:22)

SNW: The supplies--. The surprise reaction for me was once we got the change capital, was the breakdown as soon as, right after that happened. And now, not only having enough money and being excited about having enough money, but then, being fearful of what that meant. It all became all too real in that, yes, my budget went from 150 per year and we were trying to push it to 350 per year. I haven't been able to do that in five years, and now, this is my, this is what my future looks like, and so, I was, I was crying, and I was scared, and I was talking to my dog, and my dog listens. (all laugh). I don't know if--, y'all don't got a dog, but y'all better talk to your dogs. And I didn't wanna accept something as simple as the raise that I--, of what I was worth. I started backpedaling on, Well, I know we put that on our proposal, but I don't think I need that raise. I, I, I mena, I've been making it this far. And so I called one of the consultants, and, and I was like, I need to have a one on one, because I don't think I deserve this. And they was like, What? And then, what ultimately ended up happening was she ended up saying to me, This isn't just about you. This is about the future of the industry. So that the people after you get paid what you're worth--, what they're worth. (22:01) And you didn't get paid what you was worth when you first came in, but now you're gonna get it, and it's not about you any more. And I said, well if you put it like that, I'm calling the bookkeeper tomorrow. (others laugh)

SMA: I think you're--. Yeah, that moment of panic is real. And I probably sat for a few months without making any decisions because it's just really scary. I just sit and think about--. I will say that even before LANE, because Junebug was in a pretty, pretty difficult transition process, but so before that happened, we were already thinking about some of the things that we were like, If only we had the money to make sure that happens that LANE just came around at the right time, so we were already sitting down and thinking about, We've gotta have time for reflection. And I will say. That's something that doesn't happen as much or as often as it should. We all--. I always give the analogy of hamsters on a wheel. Is how the work seems to happen and seems to come to you. I can't say that this was--. It wasn't easy. It wasn't easy looking at some of the things and asking some of the questions. It wasn't a fast process. It's something that is slow and sometimes requires you stepping away from and coming back to the same question. I will say we probably sat with some questions four years ago that the answer we gave four years ago finally made sense now. We weren't asking the right question. So I think that you may ask that question over and over again. It's about stepping away and coming back to it.

AWP: When I came on board with Junebug, they were already in conversation about LANE, so like, I walked in in the middle of conversations about change capital and dreaming and all of these things, and we were making preparations for when this big change happened, and we got the money, but the thing that we, I think all of us can attest to is that you can only prepare so much for change. (24:36) Because you really don't know exactly what that change is gonna look like until you arrive in a place and it's there. So, like, everyone's saying when the money showed up its' like, Okay, you know you getting the money. You got these emails. You got these conversations that it's coming,a dn then when it showed up there was a sense of panic because then it's now, Okay, I'm in it and what do I do? How do I make these decisions and move forward in 'em. So we were in a lot of preparation for the change, but then when the change actually happened, it's like, Okay, you step back and you say, Okay, is that really the best thing to do, you know, and how to maneuver. So it's some things that we're still learning to work through, and one of the best tools that I've found is us being able to come together as a collective cohort, and have these open discussions about what frightens us, and what the next goal should be, and if we think that's a really, a good way to do things, and hiring new staff and making the changes within our organizations to keep up the capacity of what we've been given, and making sure that it lasts and it's, it's, it's something that we can keep up in the future for those who come behind us. So, I think one of the greatest tools is being able to, for all of us to sit together and be very open and honest about our challenges and the things that we're struggling with and how we're moving past them and seeing if those things can help assist each other and us growing in this new change that has already taken place in our organizations. (26:09)

TG: Sharon is calling on me. (laughter) I--I have not gotten to--. We've not gotten to the point of reflection in the work that we're doing. It's called on me to be more of an ED--, I'm an Executive Director and Artistic Director. And contrary to what I think a lot of people think of, of, of people like me is that I actually like the ED work. It's not just administrative stuff that's--. I find it's a place where you can really craft a vision for a whole organization and, and bring all of the pieces. So I actually like that work. In the meantime, though, I've written two new pieces and directed three new plays, so nothing has slowed down in, in that process. But it's--. It's like a great example, though, of dialectics. In the sense that every good reaction has, has another reaction, then another shape--, shapes with--. So, we already changed. We just don't realize it. It's like when you go work out, your body's changed from that, you just may not--, you may feel sore, but there's other things that are happening already from the moment you do it. It's the same thing when you eat, or whatever you ingest. So, being in the room with these great people was part of that change. Feeling that we had to--. We had to pull our share of the weight, understanding that we're also a test for other groups coming forward. We had the conversation about we--, we need to be successful at this so that this becomes the standard for other organizations. So that we can have advance the argument of, You deserve to be treated this way. You deserve to be able to have that level of work, that level of compensation. Your community--, we have a right to this, you know, as, as--, and our community deserves the best out of us. (28:06) So, that's a--, that's a change, that's a change in philosophy the shape. I mean, just out of hearing that, change--, we haven't seen it. You know, I'm not big and muscular now, but, but the organization is, is transforming. I haven't--, we haven't stopped and really looked at ourselves in the mirror, but we can feel it on a day to day, on a day to day basis. Everybody on the senior staff is required to--the, the space is upped significantly. Everybody--, my expectations have been very different; it's like, Okay. Well, you better go do it. You know. That's--. You--, I--, you said you were gonna do this, I need this by this time, we need to do this, because that's a big responsibility. If you blow this, it's on you--. You know you guys have to suffer for our mistake, and that's not what we want to happen. And our junior staff sees that we're expecting more out of our senior staff, so consequently, they feel they need to step up too. So, I don't know all the answers to this; maybe in a year and a half from now it'll look a little bit clearer to us, but right now, we're right in the middle--. You know, we're right in the middle of the workout, so all we know is we feel that we're sweating, and (many laugh). We're sweating.

SC: Water weight counts.

TG: And we're breathing--(all laugh). And we'll see how it happens after this.

SC: Made me think of--. Listening to you, Tony, when you don't actually get on the scale, but your clothes just fit a little looser. You're like, Okay. something's happening. I appreciate this conversation because I'm hearing a couple of things, and I wanna highlight that for folks who are thinking about their own organizations about what you all are sharing. One, is you all were thinking about change and priming yourselves for change before LANE ever got here. Right? Like, that, before this--. LANE was not what pushed these organizations to, to the heights. LIke, they were on a trajectory and we just had some support, a little bit of wind. But I wanna highlight that because I think that that is, is a testament to--. Well, maybe I'm feeling a little proud. Where I'm like, how, like, this cohort is great. Cause you all were already thinking about how our organizations shift and where we need to go, and that made it so much easier to think about who's going to be the Alpha cohort, right? (30:14) Because it wasn't someone, like, starting from scratch, trying to figure it out, but just, Here's a support mechanism for what you are already doing. What you are already thinking about. And I wanna highlight that so if you're thinking about your organizations that you're like, Okay, let's start thinking now about what change looks like. Cause when they wrote their, when they wrote their LOI's, their letter of intent in their applications, we could see in that information, Okay, they're already having a vision for their own organizations and their plans, and, and that is a beautiful thing. The other thing that I love about this conversation is, Tanya started off with the relationship between the individual and the organizational. I think most of us--, and I don't know about everyone in this room, but I know most of the people here, we didn't come from families of wealth or communities of wealth. So, this idea of having access to large sums is, is, is a shift in psychology about having. Cause we know systemic oppressions shift our psychology. So what we actually are is working ourselves out of the psychology of oppression, into what is abundant for ourselves, and like, that is a part of the work of this fund. I appreciate Kryss's spreadsheets--hey! And there's also this inner work that folks are alluding to that so it's like, It's--it's worth it to think about just in your life, how you, how--, what does change look like? How do you react to change? How do people on your staff typically react to change? What happens when you change the coffee in the coffee maker? Cause I don't know about y'all, but at NPN, that's the thing. (laughter) So, I'm really appreciating that for you all. I'm curious about what sparks your imagination. Cause change is, is something different but a transformation, like, this idea of like, Where, where is the questioning everything, like, how do you, what drives you there? (32:12) Right, you're like, Okay.

DK: So I think that--. And this kind of will, it's how I've been feeling about all of these questions in the LANE process in general. Is that it's kind of easy to dream vaguely. To just have an imagination of, like, Oh! I just want things to be great. And then, when you are given the resources you need to have things be as great as you want them to be, then you have to ask yourself the question, Well how do I get there? How do I get to these things, and what are the steps necessary with what I have? And so, when you start with this easy lofty dream, I think the imagination really comes out of, Alright, how do I get from here to there. That's where I find my imagination flowing. Like, alright, that sounds good, now how you gonna do it. And that's where the imagination comes in.

KH: I wanna add on the--, I love that it's easy to dream vaguely. But what it reminds me of, and kind of a picture that I have had--, because when you're working out of a, a position of scarcity, you--, envy, envy is a huge part of your emotional landscape. I want this, I wish I had what this theater had, I wish I had what other places have. And I remember this, this kind of compilation they made one day. I was little, so this was a long time ago, and they took all of the Miss Americas and decided who had the prettiest eyes, who had the best legs, who had the most gorgeous hair, and they put together this compilation of the ideal Miss America, and she looked really creepy. (34:07) So, I don't know who did that or why, but it was a really--, I remember this picture in my head. And it's like, When we are dreaming vaguely, is that really us? I think the genius of the LANE program is that it drives us and reminds us in so many ways how can you be your truest self, as an individual, as an artist, as an organization, as a member of the cohort, as a member in the NPN Network, and in the field and all those layers work together and all those visions harmonize with one another so what sparks my imagination, Sage, is what would that look like in my inner landscape in the landscape of the Myrna Loy, in Helena Montana, as we become more deeply ourselves? And LANE is shaped to bring that out in this, and to make us question that.

LPB: You know, we're mostly artists and administrators. We're, we're, you know, there are some of us who are hybrid organizations and hybrid people. And, you know, we, we can, we can imagine so many things. I think, you know, it's a mile a minute. I was in a conversation earlier, and, you know, we were almost about to take on three new projects for our anniversary year, and I'm like, Hold up. So, we imagine a lot. I think what, what LANE brings is the ability to focus that imagination. And to say, you know, I am imagining these things, but I know that I can bring together the resources, inner and outer, to accomplish these things, and then to take the imagination back from there and to dream around those things that we kind of can focus in on, and I think that was key for me. (36:25)
SMA: I would say it's a little bit of an opposite experience. I came into the world one who imagined quite a bit. And through just life and different experiences and being beat down, I lost that sense of imagination, and I'm an artist. I lost that sense of imagination, and I found myself dreaming really small. And, and, and I asked myself, well who am I? You know, and I'm not even bringing my best asset to the organization, which is thinking creatively. So I think that part of it is creating the space for someone who, their best asset is to be able to, to you know, to think creatively. And to imagine big and to have the blue sky moments, which we're not encouraged to do. We're not encouraged to have blue sky moments, and so, this is the thing that I'm trying to get, like, is an office culture. Is let's dream big. We still have the ability to be very pragmatic, but let's not start at a deficit. Let's start big. And then let's then go back and kind of look at those things. And I would also like to say, this is the place that the innovation happens. This is the place that--. this is why you wanna be able to dream big, cause this is the place that the innovation really happens, and if we were talking about something that was inside the corporate field, this would be a very different conversation. We'd be encouraged to try and to fail, right? And so that's--. I think, I just kinda wanna meet that out there about that innovation. I've been preaching it a lot, but it's important.

AWP: One of the things that I have watched strategically happen at Junebug, with this practice that Stephanie is talking about but that is dreaming big, but then going back and then seeing how to make those dreams happen, is being intentional about how we produce our work. And I can just share something that's very small scale but has a very large impact, that even in our productions, like, when we did homecoming project, we were very strategic about where the vendors came from. (38:55) That the money went back into the community. and that even where we're bringing chairs from, that the money went back into the community. And it's that, that big impact that we wanna see our communities change, that we wanna see the businesses come back, and the businesses be powerful, but that small part of what we did is ignited, that big vision. So, I'm learning that even in, in dreaming the big vision, like, every little piece of the puzzle, every little thing that we do impacts, like, that big part of the vision is gonna actually take place. So, just go to my even applying that tomy, like, what Tanya said, the way that we live in our own lives, and the things that we do in our own lives, and how the organization impacts how we move and operate in our own lives, and it, it, it impacts you on a greater level. So we are doing some of those great works, and I just, I hope and I pray that we get to see the flouration of it, and still be here when those things, when those seeds start sprouting up. (40:05)

SC: Thank you, Adonis. I think this is a good segue into our next, just to kind of open questions from each other and from you all. Because you left us with this gem, Stephanie, this question around failing, right, and like, how do we get ourselves out of this binary of success and failure, and into a culture of inquiry, innovation, creativity, and most important, learning, and continually learning, learning, learning. And so, I wanna move into a moment of inquiry right now. And, I know there are some questions you all have of each other, and if you all have any questions, we'll run some mics out to you all here as well.
Audience Member: This is for, you know, all of you guys. So you all have your, your capital, your infusion of cash, and your moment to see it on your balance sheets. Is there a difference in the atmosphere in your organizations? Can you feel it in the air? Is that (three words unclear) or is it still too soon?

SNW: That atmosphere is exciting in, in our space. Some of you know, and the people out there in the world may not know, when this process started, I was only a one employee operation, and now it's three of us, and I've changed my office into a space for three people. And so, we, we dance on the regular, we sing on the regular, we, we have fun, in what we're doing, we encourage each other, not only with the work that we're doing, we give the most high fives, and celebrate dance, dance, dance, dance dance, dance, ee! ee! ee! ee! We got our new CRM, and we were all up in the air, we was partying.

SC: CRM makes you party.

SNW: Exactly. So, it was just like, You can feel the atmosphere, and you can feel it not only when you come into our space, but you can feel it when we're out in the community talking about our work, or when we're, we have programs, and we're interacting with our audience. They can see that when people come up to me and say, You have this glow about you. and I was--, I'm like, things are good. You know, it's not the--, I'm not gonna lie, it's not the easiest road. There's bumps, and there's roller coaster rides. (42:45) There's days where we're just like, dang, I messed that up. And we just went, Okay. Get over it. How am I gonna fix it? And so, but, it is, you can, you can feel it in everything that we're doing right now. The energy is good. Even when we walked into this space for our meeting on Thursday. I didn't have to cry. I think it was the first meeting I didn't cry. (laughter) And I could just smile and be me, and, and be my true full self, not the one that's trying to say, Oh, we're doing good. That lie that we always tell when we're struggling. Yeah, we good. Now, I can say, Naw, yo, we good. That's how--. Yeah, you can feel it.

DK: Yeah, I wanna add to that because the, the CRM actually made me think of this. So, I can definitely feel the changes and the excitement and having more staff, like, feeling this added capacity, feeling this team, this core strengthening. And then, there are also things that you find yourself having to do that are part of this change process to get you where you wanna be that are really, really hard. And, for instance, learning this customer relationship management software is one of those things that's really, really complicated. And I remember telling Stephanie, This really sucks right now, but I can tell it's gonna be really great for us. Like, and so, even that is exciting in the, the painstaking, like, building and learning new things. It's, it's all filled with this energy of like, But it--, we're going where we wanna go. So, I'm definitely dealing with change. (44:33)

NY: I would echo both of those sentiments, but also for me, having come from like a, having come from a larger organization where you could see resources being wasted in a way that like, Man. If that were given to the folks that could actually do the work and make it happen, like, what kind of amazing things can happen? Or when you see people who do artwork that is just, like, Why would you put that on stage? That is offensive, that is not truthful or authentic, and you know that there are organizations that, if they were just given the resources and the access to do what they already do so good, how amazing would the community be. And to now, be in a space where that, I can say that I'm a part of that change, is probably the greatest joy for me as a new person coming into the process. Cause I'm with an organization where I can be proud of everything that we put on stage, cause I can be proud of the partnerships, and just the office space. Like, to now wake up with a sense of dread about going to a place where you don't really believe in the mission. and that you can--. As bumpy or smooth as it may be, you actively know that you're doing good work. To not just make an organization good, but to really affect your community. Like, we're in a space where Black people are disappearing, because of the economics of our city, and to be part of a legacy and an organization, 20 years strong, that is actively a part of that, and an arts organization, it's like, It's beautiful and amazing. For me, that's where, that, that joy of, like, yes it helps--it's great to have a like, a salary, and it's really amazing, and I can live and work in the city, but to be a part of that process, and to be a part of that history is really like, That's for me where the joy comes from as a newbie into this.

TG: So, I've been with my organization for 46 years. And we came from, as Jorge would put, my brother from San Antonio, would tell you, we began performing out of the street. Our first building that we walked into, I mean, I lied and said I had $5,000 in the bank. (46:49) To the city, I told them, Oh yeah, we got that. And I was lying. And then we went out and raised it. So, having nothing is where we come from. I'm cool, If we ever go back to that phase, you know. If we need to--. You guys know, if we need to do a sow, we can find a space to do a show, and we do a show. But there's somethting--. Knowing that, that the change has--. Is, that we can--. I can say, Okayf ine, let's do that. And I know that we have it. We--. I'll give you a concrete example. We received one of our pieces of money, which was our marketing money. Now, I don't believe--. I think newspapers are dead, and they (two words unclear) (47:29) and they're a waste of money. What we did is we went to community groups that do their, they're doing their breakfast, you know or doing a little fundraiser here. We've been able to underwrite some of their events. $500 here. $250 there. and for advertising space, in their, in their, in their programs. Or to buy a table. And they talk about us from the stage, they have our ads, this is our community, this is our--. this is different from us going to them and saying, Hey, can you underwrite our season? Hey, can you be a part of this? (48:07) And us being this place where we take that money form small groups, rather than now, we can be looked at as a place where you know what, I can give you a hundred tickets to see our show. Take all of your employees to come see our show. Because that'll benefit us in the end, because they come and they buy stuff, and they engage with us. And that, what I think its--. I think they see it as a marketing pice, but what it really does is it's much more connecting with the mission. We did--. We, we did, in the past, you know, we--, the Cesar Chavez day, I think we were getting, they were giving us $250 for us to do something with it, and we would send performers to do stuff This year, we said, you know what, we're gonna give you $500 so that we can help underwrite it, and we'll send--. We'll pay for performers together. Big change. I mean, what that gave us in terms of traction was tremendous. Plus, it was right. That's what the difference makes.
(laughter. Inaudible talking)

KH: That was a mic drop.

LPB: I think for us--. You know, and we've had quite a few changes. WE've added employees. People have health insurance (gasp). (applause). It still feels disjointed. You know? What, what--. Here's this piece and we're, we're--, get this piece and make it happen, and this piece we've made it happen. But I'm waiting for the moment when I feel flow, you know? And I'm not--. I, I, I haven't felt that yet. And I know that it's a matter of making sure that all of these disjointed pieces are in. And it's not--. It's not the staff, it's not the board, we're all like, headed in the same direction. It's the changes, you know? And we've, we've had some setbacks and the train is moving a little slower than we wanted to. But it--, I'm waiting for that moment, and, I don't--. I wonder if anybody is there yet in, in the cohort. (50:27) (inaudible talking)

SMA: Not yet. But there's something shifting. We're not quite there yet, but there's something shifting. I think the first shift I felt was internally. Because we condition ourselves to think that, There are real people who are doing this work. So, even when we're sitting down and talking about the money and the price, there's always a cost to everything. There is a cost to everything, and I'm not just talking in the office, right? And so, there is a cost on the individuals who push to even get to where they are, right now, and so, that first thing that I felt, that first day, was, I was like, we're all--. When we got it, when the money was in the bank, I panicked first because I was like, wait a minute, something's wrong. And then I forgot that the money was supposed to come into the bank. I was like, This is a lot of zeros, that's not right. I panicked. And then I was like, we should take the day off. And my poor husband, like, he was so excited, cause he's like, the first time i had a meal in a long time. He said, you should get Mellon money more often. Because I felt that internal shift just a little bit of a breath, for a moment. Even for a moment. I think what's happened also, is that that's been a continuum of a little bit more breathing space, right? And so, my breathing's not--. I haven't really, like, just let go, but I'm finding a little bit more space in here to breathe a little bit. But it's a journey. Me having--. I'm waiting for the flow to start, but I feel like we're--. We are headed in the right direction, like, we're going in the right direction, it just takes some time for that journey to really fully materialize. (52:33)

TM: I think for me, part of locating that flow is really understanding what it means to build capacity, and I think that part of building capacity isn't necessarily around getting to this place where things are easier, it's about growing the capacity to navigate adversity more successfully. So, I've just kind of come around to this place of, the challenges and the obstacles are never gonna go away, at least in our lifetime. Even if we're wildly successful, and even though we have values and goals to change the world that we're always going to be involved with struggle, but to grow our capacity to be able to negotiate that better, and to be able to, to take it in stride in a different way, that that's just kind of a part of life, so that's kind of how I see it, in terms of, Flow is, is not perfection it's--. Flow is knowing that you can make it through whatever's gonna come up.
(inaudible talking) (laughter)

KH: I feel like I'm talking too much, but in that flow, I have to really look humbly and from a, you know, this sis kind of a confessional moment--, one of the obstacles I think to our finding flow is, there is a certain culture of poverty that our organizations always operate in. I grew--. I'm a child of a minister, and my mother, my mother said, as a minister's wife, you always expect to be poor and busy. (54:35) And I thought, well that was the perfect skill to grow up with. (laughter). And having gone through a real financial crisis, you know, Sharon and I were like in lockstep, like, holding each other, so we were were already in our rebuilding moment, or rebuilding struggle when we entered the LANE program. We had to really acknowledge that sense of almost PTSD in the culture of the organization, the board and the staff was traumatized by that long persistent danger and all the hits that you keep taking when you're in that position. And that really affected my psyche as a leader. So, I still am leading from that position, and I have to stop. I couldn't take the raise, because it scared me to think about when the LANE program is over, what--, I'm gonna have to come up with that money, I can't get myself out of that sort of, I gotta throw myself in front of a--., you know, I have to have my body be the bridge that the train runs across the span. And that's not healthy, and it's not good leadership, and I have to start recognizing where my own personal fears are not allowing the organization to flourish. So there is this joy, and there's this excitement, and there's this other thing that we all, I think, share, and we have to, it's part of the challenge. (56:19)

SC: I appreciate it, and I just wanna highlight, cause you're saying you're talking too much, but you drop gems. One of the things you said on Thursday was that you recognized that you were prepared to lead the organization as it was. And so that in the midst of great change, you realized you had become a different type of leader for the organization it was becoming right? For the organization that's being born out of this change. And I thought that was really an insightful moment as, as, as a leader who's going to navigate change. It's not as if you're going, whatever you've been doing, that's been great so far. As the organization changes, that also means your leadership shifts in how that--.

SNW: Yes, that's really real. And I was gonna say something else, but since you said that. The, the whole thing of not having a staff, now having a staff, and used to being able to do everything yourself. And you know you still could do everything, and then as you start to hand stuff off, you start to question, What's your value for the organization, because you're no longer doing everything, and you have to shift your mindset of, Oh, I could just sit back and oversee the process. Oh, I can allow them to do it. Okay, so what am I supposed to be doing? And you have to constantly remind yourself, Okay, now that they're doing that, you can do this thing that you've never been able to do before. You can leave the office, go out into a community, and not worry about checking your email a hundred times because you can actually be present for that, that conversation with that new partner, or present for that potential funder or donor in those conversations. And so, for me, as a leader, and it's not that I hadn't led staff before, it's just that I hadn't led staff in this situation. It was me and my board. (58:13) And it was creepy and it was scary, and some days I would just disappear and be like, I'm --, I'm at home, I'm good, y'all cool. but really trying to learn that that process and get yourself back into the game. And at the same time, back to what Kryss was saying, before I took this job, I was doing something else, and somebody said you had to be one of my mentors told me, You have to be okay with failure. You have to be willing to fail. You have to love what you do so much that even if this or that doesn't work out, that you're okay because you loved it. And, and I take that with me, and I repeat it over and over again, and as we're moving through this workflow now, my eyes are trying to be in this moment, but at the same time, trying to keep myself from going too far in the future, because that, that's scary, so how do we build right now, learn what i need to learn, put the systems in place for my organization, but also, remind us that this, this is gonna continue in some way, but not in the exact same way, and then, that's another leadership change. So, being adaptable as you go through the process.

LPB: And I think the--, one of the things is, and it goes along with that here, is being risk-averse, right? So, we have been around, we're gonna celebrate our 50th anniversary next year. And when we look at our financials, you know, we were like, Oh, you have, you know, so many months of something in the bank. Well, that's because I didn't do this, and I didn't do that, and I, you know, I didn't take risks because I was fearful that we wouldn't have what we needed if I spent this. We wouldn't have what we needed. And its, it's crippling, you know. (1:00:15) And I'm getting over it, I'm, you know. We spent a little. We got health insurance! But, you know, it, it does. And these are psychological problems that we have to overcome.

SMA: I just wanna speak to that risk. You know, there's something real about that risk. We are not--, and this gets to that system change. Like, corporate world, that risk can happen all day every day, all the time. In some other white led organizations, that risk and that failure can happen all day every day all the time. It is real, because if we fail, there's a lot more at stake. There's a lot more at stake. And so, I feel like, as a leader of a organization that's Black led, that that is on our shoulders all the time, that we bring that in with us, is that this isn't about just us. If we fail at this, there may not ever be something else like this. And so, that's a heavy burden to carry and it's true. It is not just happen--. We're not just saying that. It's true, and so it makes you afraid of what that risk, because the cost if you fail is so great and so deep, and it's the thing that I think that LANE is trying to, is, is trying to lay out. Is the systems change; these systems need to change, and, and hopefully these--. I mean, we have all said it. I think we have all said that in these meetings, and that that is exactly the kind of information--, philanthropy and other fields need to know, is that the system needs to shift and to change. (1:02:21) Because --, or we will carry that burden with us all the time, and we'll always be afraid to be a risk, and if we're afraid of risk, then we're afraid of failure, and if we're afraid of failure, then we're not dreaming, and then, innovation never comes.

SC: I, I appreciate that, Stephanie, cause--. We've been spending a lot of time talking about inside organizations, but these idea of transformation is necessary is not just the organizations themselves right? One of the things we talk about in this work is LANE is not designed to create an arts version of the talented tenth. It's not designed just to make 12 healthy arts organizations. Because you can't take a really healthy fish in a fish bowl and pour it into a polluted pond and expect the fish to thrive. But that we have to be intentionally pushing against the systems, pushing against, around making sure our humanity, our dignity, our value, and our space is equally as recognized everywhere else so we do have the same access to try, to try--. Who doesn't want that? That's a basic thing. To try something. And feel like we can.

JC: I think that's one of the biggest things. Like, that's what I was talking about Thursday. I didn't want--. I didn't wanna--. I didn't wanna get all, like, morbid and be like, Well, we have to succeed or this is all never happening again. But that's how it feels, and that's what it is, so that was one phrase, I said, like, success is--. We've gotta have a really strong determination for success, and that was the goal, like, to make sure we change ourselves and to make sure that we complete the change, and the change actually is noticeable from the outside in. And that was, I think, what Linda and I, with the transition, with succession planning, I'm more eager, and I--, with Linda happened that wisdom happened years, to have years, to have decades of experience, knowing what it's like to have no money in the bank and skipping a paycheck so you can make sure your artist gets paid. Like that, I never wanna go through that again. And I'll be damned if I do it again. But I know that having Linda with those experiences, and having Bea saying, We've gotta make decisions, we have to make decisions. It's--we're finding, and that's why it's kind of, we're finding that middle road, and I--, I know if we--, I'd already have had the money spent if it was just--. (laughter) But I know it wouldn't have also--. It would've been. We would've been doing, like, what? Likee, what has to be done, it wouldn't have been just throw money away, just lighting it on fire, saying, Oh, we got it, why not? (1:04:56) But it's also gonna be, like, Linda, Linda's voice of saying, like, Hold on, slow down, pull in the reins a little bit, and just saying, like, let's make sure this is steered the way we need to go, and I feel like that's a really beautiful mixture and a beautiful kind of pair of what we have, that dichotomy is a strange one, but it also makes for really good decisions to come out of what we are able to come with together. So I'm a little terrified about what's gonna happen when Linda's not around, I just want y'all to know. But, Linda's gonna be around for a long time.

TG: So, I just--, I wanted to offer, kind of, kind of dovetailing with what you're saying, Jonathan, is that, on the, on the reverse side of that is that we get to be in experiment, we get to be a, a place where, where we can pool others with us. We were in the, in the bigger meeting we were all talking about succession and transition, and endeavor. We were talking about major five, six latino arts organizations. Their leadership--, the longest leadership position to have--, it's like, three years, one of them, I mean, they've all transitioned. They're all three years or less in the ED position. So, Teatro's in a different position now, of being able to go to those guys and say, Hey, maybe we have some resources, maybe we have some mentorship, maybe we've learned from this process that we can actually--. (1:06:24) And not just--, I mean, we--, I do not believe that it has to be only within our communities to say hey, this is what we learned, this is a way we can move forward, these are the possibilities, and to make what we're doing the norm rather than the exception, and the other piece of that is that--, and other people have mentioned that is that within the dominant culture, that's where they live. You know, you ever go into somebody else's house and you go, Damn! This is--. I remember going to a school out in the suburbs once, and they had everything, it's like, What the hell is--? (laughter) Right? And they go, Oh, we're not wealthy, we just do okay. But we live in this other place, but we can bring people into the outside--. This is one of the things is that this whole piece of raising our capacity is, is--. I teach in the Chicano studies department at Metropolitan State University, and one of the things I try to tell my students is you know, one of the most transformative pieces of legislation was actually the GI bill, before the GI bill allowed for working class and people of color to start going to the university, to use education as a tool for social mobility, so it was an infrastructural change, and in some ways, what we've got an opportunity to go and take whatever transforma--, transformative experiences and structures that we have and, and share those with our communities, so that's, that's, that it spreads out, and it has a lifelong belong the times that we're here working.

SC: Thank you, Tony, I think that's a--. And part of a wonderful segue and a transition. (1:08:02) And actually, following you is perfect, because as I was listening to you all, I was thinking back to what Damia said earlier, about creativity being inside the practice, and that movement history tells us that it's not always one thing that makes the shift. So, I hear you all talking about your fear of failure, and it may never happen again. No, it may not, but something else will. Cause the movement doesn't stop, right? So we'll keep trying, and we'll keep trying something else, and something else,. Right now, we are in LANE, and we are rocking it, and you all are brilliant, and thank you so much for your courage and sharing today, and all that you all have offered. I hope that you all catch up with these folks, and for those of you who are watching live, and also listening on the podcast, please continue to listen and follow. Thank you for listening to our inaugural podcast. You can find more information about these amazing leaders and their organizations on the NPN website, www.npnweb.org. This episode is co-edited by Monica Tyran and Amanda Bankston. with sound design from media maker, Muthi Reed. Next month, is a conversation with adrienne maree brown. Writer, facilitator of social justice movements, and writer of Emergent Strategies: Shaping Change, Changing Worlds. Thank you again for listening, and we hope you join us next time. (outro music) (1:09:51)