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Thoughts and ideas on education, culture, psychology, social science and more from our academics, students, alumni and wider community to create lasting and evolving change. Podcasts brought to you by UCL Institute of Education (IOE), the world's leading centre for education and social science research, courses and teaching, and a faculty of University College London (UCL).
More from us: https://ucl.ac.uk/ioe
You're listening to IOE Insights, the UCL Institute of Education podcast at University College London.
Tooba Rauf:Hi, Louise. You remember last time when we sat together to record our first episode of the podcast? It was December and very cold. And now it's March and still cold.
Louise Chappe:Oh, come on, Tooba. Last week, we had plenty of sun. And it was almost 18 degrees.
Tooba Rauf:Well, you know what, we have enough time for me complaining about the weather and not having enough sun here. But let's formally welcome our audience to the second episode of our podcast, the PhD sketchbook.
Louise Chappe:Okay, Tooba, back to our subjects. So last time we spoke about our initial motivation and how we find a home in London. Today we're going to focus more on the first steps of our PhD.
Tooba Rauf:The beginning of PhD, how was it for you? Was it like you figured out everything, you had a plan and it was working fine or was it chaotic?
Louise Chappe:When I came to London for my PhD I was very joyful and I had a plan actually I had my PhD proposal but that was in theory in practice when I began my journey I was very confused and it was very overwhelming because you don't know where to begin it's hard to find where to begin in IOE as a PhD you have a lot of freedom you can choose all the classes you want I meet my supervisor once a month but I didn't know where to begin what should I write and so my strategy was to book and attend as many classes as I can I had a strategy, beginning first with learning how to do a literature review then some theory classes some data collection classes ethics and it gave me a lot of different perspectives and ideas but at the same time I booked way too much classes that's for sure and I didn't have time to focus on my own PhD project I didn't have time to write? So it gave me a good idea, but that was a bit of a mistake. Yeah, should have dedicated more time to my writing for sure.
Louise Chappe:What about you? Was your the beginning of your journey as chaotic as mine or it was better?
Tooba Rauf:Mine was chaotic, of course, and very confusing. I love being confused. No, I'm lying, I don't love being confused. But I think it's very important to be confused at the start because then you move towards that clarity. So similar to you, I also thought that getting as much as exposure as I can would be the right thing to do, so I signed up for six courses, I think, in the first term, which is not a very smart move.
Tooba Rauf:Now I realize it, but I guess I needed that at the first, just the first steps of my PhD. I remember I signed up for the mandatory IOE courses, and also some courses on methodology and theory and philosophies, everything, like I like. And I thought that maybe going to those classes, you know, get some inspiration, which will guide me eventually what I'm going to do. And yeah, I know that it was chaotic. The schedule that I had in my calendar used to look so chaotic, and I realized I overcommitted, but we are PhD students, we always overcommit.
Tooba Rauf:That's us. Yeah, that's But it worked. Somehow it still worked. And I think that, oh, I could have gotten like less courses, but
Louise Chappe:it still worked. Yeah, same. My Google Calendar was full and messy.
Tooba Rauf:So Louise, what are you drawing?
Louise Chappe:I draw a thinking bubble because when I came into the PhD my thought was very messy so it's like a thinking bubble and then I'm going to put all my ideas and a lot of colors to show the messiness of my the beginning of my journey. What about you?
Tooba Rauf:Well, first looking at your paper, it looks very organized and you say it's messy. That's interesting.
Louise Chappe:I like being organized in my messiness. This is why I have a Google Calendar and it's strictly organized.
Tooba Rauf:I love being messy when I am messy, so that's what white paper looks like splashes of colors everywhere. Because I'm confused and I don't know where to go.
Louise Chappe:But this is very joyful and colourful, so that's a nice process.
Tooba Rauf:Exactly, it's a nice process, being confused and enjoying it.
Louise Chappe:I think this is the definition of confusion and enjoyment. Agree. Okay, Tooba, so we said that the beginning of our journey was very much confusing. So when did you have the proper idea of what you wanted to do for your PhD project?
Tooba Rauf:I mean, I did have an idea what I wanted to do for my PhD project since the beginning before even applying for the PhD. But I would say the methodology I have at the time of application on my proposal was quite ambitious. I was trying to do a lot of things, and the feedback and guidance of my supervisors really helped me to like narrow it down. And something else that really helped me was to really talk to those people who are already working in the area. After my supervisor suggested that they go talk to people and as I was focusing more on teachers as my main participants, to talk with them and just have an initial feedback, how do they respond to the research idea.
Tooba Rauf:So I remember having to meet with people both online and in person too, and just sharing with them my initial idea of what I want to do, what would be my research setting, and what kind of activities I want to do with my data collection, and what I'm hoping to achieve. That really helped me to get, like, firsthand feedback from potential participants or the people who would be directly participating in the research. So that really helped me narrow it down. And what about you, Louise? Would it help you?
Louise Chappe:So I had a similar experience. My research proposal is very different, from what I'm doing right now. I was also very ambitious. I wanted to do multiple case studies and use mixed methods, but it was too much and too ambitious for a PhD. So yeah, my supervisor gave me a lot of advices and helped me to make it more practical so that I could actually achieve my PhD and finish it during the time constraint that we have.
Louise Chappe:What helped me the most was reading actually. When I was doing my literature review I was reading a lot of articles. It helped me to discover new methodology, new theories as well that I can apply to my own project. So it was very nice And I think it's an evolving process. Like every day we read new articles, we find new data as well that help to shape our projects.
Louise Chappe:So even today, I will say that this is still evolving.
Tooba Rauf:I agree with you. Actually, reminds me, another thing that really helped me was writing along with reading about the methodologies I wanted to choose or my theories that I wanted to consider. I remember I had to, like, my supervisor asked me to read around all the potential methodologies or the research side and other aspects of the research and write, like, a summary paper or review paper each month, and that really, really helped me to narrow it down and again see the practicality of my research proposal. I think when you write, you can really see what's going to work and what's not going to work. So that was also very helpful.
Louise Chappe:Yeah, I did the same actually. Every month I tried to submit a piece of writing, some paragraph about some mythology theories or even ethical questions. And it actually helped to put your ideas, like organize your ideas, put it in order. And it actually feels good that you actually are writing something for your upgrade document as well. And I also did the same as you.
Louise Chappe:I went on in some school to have some initial observations that helped me to actually see if the theory I was going to use or the methodology actually going to work in practice or just theories in my head. So, I think it was, yeah, the good solution.
Tooba Rauf:So, let's talk about the big milestone, the ethics approval and the upgrade viva that stresses every incoming PhD student. How was that process for you, and what were you feeling when you were writing these documents?
Tooba Rauf:Well, yeah, I can still remember that it was a very confusing and overwhelming time. As I said, I was writing some paragraph about my literature review, my background, my methodology and my theories. And I was trying to put all these pieces together in a huge document, which is the upgrade document. And it was sometimes confusing and I got lost into all these pages.
Louise Chappe:So it was a long process and it was a lot of back and forth between me and my supervisor a lot of correction and modification which is the case for every PhD student but it's very long and very confusing. I did my upgrade during the first term of my second year and I got my ethics approval during my first year on the second term or third term I think. I mean every project is different everybody is doing their ethical approval and their upgrade on their own time so you should not compare yourself. My ethical approval was long to do because I had to reflect on I'm working with children. So I have to reflect on how I can work with children and make it ethical. So it was a lot of different questions. So yeah, every project is different. And according to your participant, according to your department requirements. You're going to do your grade and ethical form at different times during your PhD, I think.
Tooba Rauf:Yeah, I agree. And it really depends on the nature of the research you're doing, how much time it's going to take for you to write and develop your methodology, answer your right, the ethic form and upgrade and how you're going to like, administratively process it. I remember I first went once I have a clear concept of my methodology, I begin with first ethics approval and then upgrade, which is a bit different because I spoke to some of the colleagues and they said that they went with the upgrade first and then the ethics. So there's so many ways about it, and it's very flexible, the whole process is, to suit the particular need of your project. I also want to say there's a lot of stress around the upgrade BIWA because it seems such a huge and big step, especially when you are like just starting your PhD.
Tooba Rauf:And a lot of people, including me, thought that it's something like, oh, you have to just research concept, this research idea, and all that you have to defend it in front of this jury. So, you know, it sounds very dramatic in your head, but to be honest, it's not, it wasn't that traumatic. I remember I really enjoyed my up Grade Waiver discussion. In fact, in the middle of that, I forgot it was an Up Grade Waiver and I thought it's just like a friendly discussion with colleagues and were giving very useful and beneficial feedback. And they really want us to succeed in our project.
Tooba Rauf:So, I think that I learned that we should rather take it as a helpful, guidance or like a discussion session than it is to just something you put so much pressure on yourself that you have to defend. And, I also agree about the timing that you should not compare yourself with other colleagues. Everyone is working according to their own timeline. And everything is going to fall into place. Just keep working.
Louise Chappe:Yeah, I agree for the upgrade Viva. Mine was also very I really enjoyed it. It was very nice. I think, yeah, we should just take the advice like this is people who have more much more experience than you in your subject, in your area. We are just in the first year of our PhD when you do the upgrade usually or the second year.
Louise Chappe:So we need that advice and this sort of new perspective as well on your research. So I think this is very nice and you should have a very open discussion about it. Also, when you submit your upgrade document, usually that means that you're confident enough to submit it you have some clarity about your project. So you need to be confident to defend your upgrade viva, which is nice. So yeah, it was very joyful as well.
Louise Chappe:It was a nice conversation. Although I was very nervous and stressed, I didn't forget it was upgrade viva. And yeah, I was very nervous, I think this is mostly my personal idea. So we spoke a lot about academic life. Alongside this, all these formal benchmarks, how are you treating yourself? I mean, outside university and work?
Tooba Rauf:Well, treating yourself there is a very important terminology here, because PhD journey could be very lonely and also stressful. And just, you know, from time to time, just checking out of it and just reminding yourself that your life is just not about or just not revolve around the PhD is very important. Again, especially as an international student living here, I think the most immediate connections we have is just the university work and research, so it's really hard to find the distractions or to really to treat yourself with other things outside work and research. So you really need to take some initiatives. I remember after doing my ethics application, I went out on a three day trip to Wales and I found myself hiking in some remote mountains without GPS or internet and it was, really like an experience of literally touching grass and not gazing twenty four hours on my computer screen.
Tooba Rauf:And that was really, really refreshing. It is still one of the most beautiful memories I have, and that was actually very helpful because, and I'm very grateful and thankful for my, to myself for doing that, because when I came back, I had to immediately work on my upgrade and just, just getting that, you know, short trip outside the academia really helped to refresh and re energize to work on the next go. How about you, Louise?
Louise Chappe:Oh, I also treated myself with some day trip with my friend. I went to Brighton and I went to Oxford to do some camping. And this is very refreshing and very important to do that because you always have your PhD somewhere in your head. Like even when you go out with your friend, usually it's somewhere you're just thinking about your research question and some article you need to read. And so going out and just, yeah, having fun and laughing is very important just to step out of your PhD for some hours.
Louise Chappe:And I remember after my upgrade, one of my friend actually treated me with a very hot chocolate and cream and marshmallow. That was very nice. It was in the summer, so it was very warming. So we spoke a lot about outside London and day trip. What is your favorite place inside London?
Tooba Rauf:Well, on top of my head, I feel like my room and my bed.
Louise Chappe:You are a very introverted person, that's why.
Tooba Rauf:Yeah, I just love staying in and doing absolutely nothing. You know what I love the most? Doing nothing!
Louise Chappe:And you do a PhD.
Tooba Rauf:Ironic but yeah, just sometimes taking a break from everything and doing nothing is what I absolutely love. And my room, it's like my little world, and it allows me to do that, me myself, listen to the music, just not worry about any deadlines and anything else. Just binge watch my favorite Netflix shows, cook my favorite recipes, and eat it. So, I feel like, the favorite place in London is the little home that I have built in
Tooba Rauf:these years. What about you?
Louise Chappe:Well, we already know that I am the opposite. So I like to go out a lot. I don't know. I mean, I tried a lot of different activities in London and visited a lot of places. I really liked Shakespeare's Globe. I watched Romeo and Juliet with some of my friends. I really love this place. I also like Greenwich.
Louise Chappe:Like it's quite different from Central London. There is very greenery and yeah, there's a good view, good park, good food as well. I like to try every food outside. Yeah, we're still speaking about food in this episode as well. And yeah, just having a pint and a beer outside in a pub. That's actually very nice.
Tooba Rauf:Awesome. Well, I see a lot of colors again on your paper. Let's talk about our paintings. What we are making?
Louise Chappe:Yeah. So I finished this thinking bubble where there is a lot of different colors, like an explosion of colors, are all my thoughts and ideas, a bit messy as well. And I did like a happy smiley because sometimes you're happy with some idea and a very non happy smiley, a very angry smiley because sometimes you're just like oh no this is a bad idea and how can I make it alive as well? Theory okay but in practice how can I make it? I drew a lot of conversation bubbles because discussing with other PhD colleagues, with my supervisor, with a media teacher as well helped me to build my project and I am still finishing to draw some books and articles on the side because reading helped me a lot to shape my project as well
Tooba Rauf:It's looking really amazing, I must say. I love the colors.
Louise Chappe:Thank you. Yours as well is very colorful. I can see books, shelf?
Tooba Rauf:Yes. Yeah, I mean, colorful is the theme for today's painting. And, I was just trying to take inspiration from the last painting we made for the first episode where I had my backpacked and everything. There are so many avenues and ways to go. But, what we were discussing in today's episode was just like, as you said, splash of colors, so many ideas and, so getting confused and plans not working. So I just literally painted that. I also have some thoughts represented by splash of colors, not as cute as yours, I don't know.
Louise Chappe:This is perfect. That sounded very perfect for me.
Tooba Rauf:Thanks. And then, yeah, also a library, like shelves and books, and then a bin with a lot of papers thrown into because those are not working, and a board with plan A, C also not working. But somehow, you even, the message really is to you, if you keep faith enough in yourself and you keep going, no matter if the room is straight, it's filled with a lot of diversions, you're going to achieve the goals at the end. So that's what my painting is today.
Louise Chappe:Yeah, think you're right. PhD is a very long process and everything is more about not giving up and just continue, continue. And you're going to find a right path at some point. Oh Tooba, look through the window. The sun is actually coming out. You should not complain anymore today.
Tooba Rauf:Oh, maybe not just today. Well, we'll see how the weather is when we record our next episode, which will be about our data collection, challenges, methodology, and facing the real world.
Louise Chappe:Stay tuned.
Louise Chappe:If you have enjoyed this podcast, search IOE Insights on your preferred podcast platform to listen to more episodes from the IOE.
Tooba Rauf:And a quick favor before you go, if you're listening on Apple Podcast or Spotify, we would really appreciate it if you could give the IOE Insights podcast a rating.
Louise Chappe:Five stars will, of course, be nice if you have been loving what you are hearing, and that will help reach more people who are interested in knowing what we are all about.
Male voiceover:Thanks for listening. Search IOE Insights for more podcasts from the IOE.