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Starting: January 2024
This weekly podcast is unique in higher education. All sides of Issues, challenges, and opportunities from across higher education are presented and discussed in an entertaining style and format.
Dr. Gary Stocker, Dr. Joseph Pellerito, and their guests review, discuss, and debate the issues of the day in higher education.
Gary (00:03.246)
It's April 4th, 2024. And Dr. Pellerito, it's opening day for Major League Baseball here in St. Louis. And Joseph, I really should not be talking to you on this day. It's effectively a holiday here in the Lou.
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (00:17.665)
Well, I actually appreciate the reminder, Gary, because it brings me, uh, it brings back great memories of the 1968 world series when I was a wee lad. But when the Detroit tigers, if you recall, defeated the St. Louis Cardinals in that historic, uh, matchup, it was wonderful. Lou Brock and some of the other St. Louis greats were, uh, were playing, but they were no match for Mickey Lolic and the rest of the Tigers. So thank you for that.
Gary (00:47.566)
You were born in 1968, Joseph?
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (00:50.465)
No, I was born a little prior to that, but...
Gary (00:55.118)
Okay. Hey, for those who don't like St. Louis Cardinal Baseball or baseball at all for that matter, here's what we're going to talk about today. We're going to talk about graduates, college graduates who end up underemployed. We're going to talk about college closures, but in this case, an article about a college president who says, you know what, we might be headed, Joseph, for in mass closures of colleges. We'll talk about that. We're also going to talk about some ideas that Joseph has on college safety. And of course, there's always more content that comes up.
Joseph, there was a story in higher ed died this week that half of graduates, half of college graduates end up underemployed and they had a rhetorical question. What does that mean for colleges? And Dr. P, the answer is easy. If half of the graduates are underemployed, I think this has got to be yet another nail in the coffin of higher education, especially as we see it today.
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (01:52.481)
You know, Gary, I love old fashioned sayings. And one of the sayings that comes to mind is don't throw the baby out with the bath water. You know, universities, colleges, that pathway is still a fabulous option for many, many people in this country. You know, we talk about military, which is we respect and honor that pathway. We talk about
The trades, which is another really solid pathway. But you know, a third pathway that remains is a pathway to the university. Now I agree with you. The kind of money that young people spend today and others spend today, not just young people, but people of all ages should really should end up with a career. They should end up with a career and not a job at Starbucks.
So I'm in agreement on that, but I still think it's a highly viable pathway for many, many people.
Gary (02:52.942)
You know, how many times, Joseph, do I have to remind you that markets always adjust. Think back to the stuff you and I bought over our adult lives. Cars and computers and houses and changes recently with realtors. Markets always change. Joseph, this is just yet another indicator that the higher education market is not where it needs to be. And if that's the case, if more and more students, Joseph, say, it's not for me.
I think that puts us in, continues to put us in that bind where more and more colleges just won't be able to survive. That's the issue, I think. Not that some under, some significant percentage of graduates end up underemployed.
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (03:32.865)
Yeah, no, I think that the crushing debt that many young people inherit today is criminal, borderline criminal. But I, again, believe that the real answer is that institutions of higher ed need to identify better pathways for their prospective students. In other words, when we're looking at AI, for example, there's going to be a whole industry.
that's going to be created around AI with new jobs we haven't even imagined yet. Higher Ed needs to get on the ball and figure out how to prepare its prospective students for the new economy, the new world. And I'm optimistic about that. I think we're going to see tens of thousands of new jobs coming soon and Higher Ed needs to get on the ball.
Gary (04:23.758)
You know, Joseph, you're talking about salt. I'm talking about pasta. You're saying, well, if we just put a little bit more salt in the pasta, it will be better. And I'm saying, Joseph, nobody, nobody likes pasta or very few people like pasta. That's the difference in our arguments. We're not even doing apples to apples here.
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (04:42.529)
Yeah, no, I hear that. Well, first of all, I love pasta, but that, you know, that's an aside. I believe that there's benefits for individuals who choose the university pathway. I think they transcend sort of numbers that, and really we talk about the qualitative side of it. What...
What kind of maturity do young people experience when they go away for three or four years, number one? When they get a degree, it's not just the skill set that they're being, you know, taught and mentored and prepared to be able to carry out, but there is a maturity that occurs that is, I think, highly valuable. That campus life they experience, the networking, the lifelong friendships. I mean, there are many, many positive things about...
the university experience that I think we shouldn't just simply forget about.
Gary (05:39.854)
And before we get out of this first section of college counterpoints today, I'll remind the listeners and you, you know, of my college manifesto. Yes, I take shots at colleges all the time. I will continue to do that. You and I both know that as we sit here, but the manifesto, college is good, Joseph, really good. Go if you can. Second one is graduation is better. Third point in the manifesto for college viability is some colleges will not survive, although many will. And then the last one that I'll read today, there are more.
only consider colleges and comparatively good financial health.
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (06:14.913)
All right, well, let's go to our first sponsor today, College Viability. You know, there's a FAFSA and now a reverse FAFSA, Gary. How many of us have filled out FAFSA forms for our children? Of course, those share our financial information with colleges. We have to be transparent with colleges. What if there was a reverse FAFSA? What if there were a tool that students and their families could use to determine...
if a college was financially healthy enough to provide a quality college education. Of course, that solution is the 2024 Parent College Viability App for students and their families. And I got to tell you, Gary, I've personally used this app in my own family as I'm helping my daughter make a decision, an informed decision in terms of where she's going to go in the fall.
Compare college enrollments, graduation rates, and more. It's available today at collegeviability .com. That's collegeviability .com. It's only fair that students and their families should know the financial health and colleges of colleges they are considering. It's collegeviability .com. So let's talk about our next topic, Gary, which is, I think, important. We talked about it last week.
And we wanted to circle back because college safety is paramount. I would argue that even beyond the financial health and well -being of an institution, the first thing I want to know as a parent, as a faculty member, as a college administrator, how safe is the university that my adult child is going to? So let's talk about a couple of these things.
First of all, we can research crime statistics and starting by checking the crime stats of the area where the college or university is located. Websites like the FBI's Uniform Crime Reporting or UCR program provides data. Also, we can go to city -data .com and learn about crime in and around the area. But the best way to do it is to look at...
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (08:39.073)
the clear reports that universities are required to publish, which will tell you the safety and the crime stats of that particular campus. And you can get those from any admissions office at any university in the US. As a matter of fact, by law, they have to provide that for you.
Gary (09:01.646)
Well, I'm not for one millisecond going to question safety. I'm not. It's important. I would not send my child, children to a college, even though we're past that stage, that had safety issues. I think, though, Joseph, the bigger picture, or maybe a supplemental part of the picture, is maintenance, preventive maintenance. There are countless stories about colleges who are in financial straits, don't have the funds to keep their buildings safe.
And there are stories of mold and carbon monoxide reporters, carbon monoxide detectors, and all those things. I worry, Joseph, that the picture is even bigger than the obvious safety components you talk about. And I think you and I have talked about this offline. I worry that there is a crisis out there, a catastrophe, Joseph, out there that's going to slap us in the collective face when that
And when that catastrophe hits a college that didn't keep its building safe enough for students and something bad happens.
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (10:08.641)
Yeah, you know, I think it's not always top of mind, unfortunately, until there's a crisis, until there's a catastrophe. And we're all familiar with those, especially in our country. We need to have an ongoing dialogue, not only looking at issues that you brought up that are important, but also what can we do to optimize safety on campus? And you know,
My goal today is to simply suggest that anyone who cares about a loved one who's going to be going away to school, maybe it's the first adult child in a family to go to college, whatever the circumstances, we need to be able to make informed decisions about not only the financial viability of schools, but how safe are they? And I think that's a really important point. I know we'll return to this in the future.
But I wanted to at least touch base on that today and I'm glad we did.
Gary (11:09.23)
It was important, and again, off of the microphone, off of outside the podcast, we've talked about doing this over and over again. And I worry, I really do. And even before you and I started this discussions, there is a catastrophe out there waiting to happen. I worry about that constantly. And that's why I think this topic is important for you and I to discuss. And for those listening, if you have some feedback you'd like to share with us, feel free to do so. We have a comment section.
at collegecounterpoints .com. Feel free to go out there and give us your feedback. And those are our two topics for the day. Let's move on, Joseph, to the first news story. And here is a story from Inside Higher Education. And the headline reads, yes, colleges do close. Let me read something from that article from Inside Higher Education. Despite good reporting on the existential crisis facing small private colleges, the public remains unconvinced.
that colleges will close en masse. They believe colleges don't close. Now, Joseph, I don't... Everything is bad. Gary Stocker doesn't even use the word en masse to describe what will be college closures. And this is the first time I've seen that. And do you know who the quote's from? Joseph, the quote is from the president of Notre Dame College. Just denounced his closure last month.
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (12:32.769)
Wow. Well, you know, that's ironic, isn't it? But one thing I would say on this is there's no doubt that we're going to see more closures. And you know that I did sort of relinquish my position and agree with you that there needs to be thoughtful consolidation, well thought out consolidation. But at the same time, Gary, I don't want to yell fire in a crowded theater.
We're not at a point where we're going to be seeing closures en masse. I don't believe that. I think it's going to be controlled and it's going to be over the next several years. We could talk in the future about what our estimation is, what your estimation is for closures. But the point is this. Yes, focus on looking at the financial viability of the schools you're considering to attend. That's the message, right? Focus on other.
issues that are important to like what kind of degree am I getting and will it lead me to a career or a job at Starbucks? Not that there's anything wrong with working at Starbucks, but that's a that's an entry level job and it is not a career. So I'm not disagreeing with you completely, but I'm also not going to I'm not ready to yell fire in a crowded theater either.
Gary (13:56.654)
Well, you know, Dr. P, here's what does it take? You're in the theater and somebody has lit a match. All right. Not a fire. You're in a theater and you smell smoke. All right. Maybe you see a theater and the curtain is burning down in the front of the stage. We're at some portion of that, we're some some stage of that with colleges closing. One closes almost every week for the last five years. I say, Joseph, the fire is present.
And we're going to look back in two years, three years and say, you know what? Stocker was right. There was a fire.
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (14:35.457)
Well, that's why we need an orderly method to perhaps exit the theater so that the firemen and women can do their job. But I don't think we need to run and I don't think we need to panic. I think that schools in the U .S. still offer a highly viable pathway for many, many students and we need to work together. And that includes...
upper administration within universities, but also working with other stakeholders to figure out the best pathway forward.
Gary (15:13.166)
And the president of Notre Dame College kind of sort of agrees with me, not so many words, because he says this, and you're not the only one, Joseph, that doesn't recognize there's a fire in the theater. He says, without an understanding of the crisis facing our small colleges, no amount of internal and external analysis reaching the same conclusion, they'll close, will be enough for many to accept that their institution has no viable future.
And he wraps it up with donors, alumni, former and current board members, administrators, faculty and staff are left in disbelief when a college closes despite the fire having been, I'm adding this part, despite the fire, excuse me, despite the fire having been raging around them for years and years and years. I'll let you wrap this one up and take us to our last story.
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (16:03.521)
Well, you know, it's interesting we're using a fire analogy because maybe it's a good thing because typically with fire before you see the actual flames, right? What do you, what do you see? Well, you see smoke first generally, and you also smell it. So maybe we're, we can agree on this that administrators that smell smoke, that see smoke that are concerned about the trajectory of their finances really need to be more transparent about it. And.
Perhaps it's not unreasonable to suggest that students should be given, and faculty for that matter, and staff, by the way, at least one year, one year. Lastly, Gary, when I decide to leave a particular institution, I'm gonna give them many, many months of notice because that's the right thing to do, right? And so we need...
administrators to give notice in a reasonable amount of time and I think a minimum of a year is reasonable. I'm just going to throw that out there. It's fairly arbitrary and we can certainly analyze it and come up with probably a better formula and I know you could certainly do that.
Gary (17:15.726)
Well, and you're right, and I've got a note here right on my little writing board that says, yeah, you do that. It becomes a self -fulfilling prophecy. So if I say today I'm closing next year, it's all over. If I say we might close next year.
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (17:26.113)
Well, we don't say we're close. We don't. We don't say we're closing next year. And I understand that. And that's the reason why the, you know, the pushback, why transparency is in forthcoming. What I'm suggesting is that we have courageous administrators that speak forthrightly, speak the truth, talk about trajectory, talk about the possible outcomes and what needs to happen. Otherwise.
you know, Plan B is going to have to be implemented. And I think that that would be refreshing. And I don't I don't think it's unreasonable.
Gary (18:02.51)
And our second and final news topic of this week's episode of College Counterpoints is faculty governance. And guys, Joseph, we've talked about this on occasion, and this is from Rick Seltzer in, I think it's Chronicle. The headline reads, faculty governance under fire. And Megan Zanheiss has a detailed story, but the big picture, Seltzer writes, is major forces are eroding faculty power, even at flagship universities. Financial pressures,
Critics who decry faculty political activism and leaders who tire faculty groups' propensity to interrogate changes are slowly rewriting shared governance and tenure procedures through a lot of things. Rick Seltzer's right.
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (18:47.201)
Well, you know, I think that there's a lot at stake here. We know that faculty tenure, for example, is under attack in many, many segments across the country. There's a call for post tenure review. I still believe in shared governance. I think that the faculty senates that function in most universities across the country, if not all, have a really important role to play.
Unfortunately, however, there is animosity often between faculty and administration and especially in those institutions where they're unionized faculty. But at the end of the day, we have to all work together, Gary. It may sound a little Pollyannaish to some, but we've got to work together because you know what? We are headed for the enrollment cliff. We are headed for more difficult times.
There's white water ahead. And I think that faculty could bring a fresh and unique perspective if administrators would be willing to work with them on this. So.
Gary (19:53.39)
you know, maybe Whitewater will help put out the fire in the theater.
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (19:56.801)
Yeah, it could be. No, no, I just, I think that we need all hands on deck in terms of identifying, you know, ways to overcome these challenges that we're facing in higher ed. It's monumental, no doubt, but it requires all hands on deck. So.
Gary (19:59.31)
Go ahead, I'm sorry, I interrupted you.
Gary (20:19.374)
And yeah, and I believe this is simply another area where the market is pressuring colleges to look for more flexibility, more rapid flexibility. And Joseph, you know this, you and I have lived this. There are countless stories of faculty decision -making processes, making glaciers look speedy. I doubt there are many evil intentions from college leaders and their boards. There might be some. And while it's not readily apparent, it is possible that these leaders see the iceberg, or the easier term, raging waters,
They see the iceberg coming and are trying to establish systems and processes to deal with it. The best bet for me, Joseph, some will make adjustments, too many won't. And those that do make changes will gain some relief from the honoris, faculty deliberations, and they will be the ones that lead the market in change and probably lead the market in growth of their share of students in colleges. And it's time, that time of the week, Joseph, where we go to the scoreboard.
and you graciously let me keep score this week. And I do keep a little tick mark here. And I'm sad to do this, but I have us tied again this week. I have seven good points for you and seven good points for me. And most of the points were scored for both of us in the theater fire discussion that we had a couple of minutes ago. So I didn't do that on purpose. I just, you know, I...
go through what we're going to talk about today. I keep track. Another tie at seven all. I don't know. We're going to have to find a way to have more winners and this kind of stuff. We're being too nice to each other.
Joseph Pellerito Jr. (21:57.537)
Well, we could always, uh, we could always defer to, you know, hockey rules and have maybe a shootout at the end of some sort. I'm not sure what that would look like, but you know, for tiebreakers, but listen, Gary, it was a lot of fun today. I want to thank you. I also want to thank our listeners and I want to wish everyone a wonderful day and we'll see you next week.
Gary (22:04.206)
That's good.