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Real News For Real New Mexicans.
The Chile Wire with Abe Baldonado. Hey, everyone. Welcome back to The Chile Wire. This week, I am delighted to introduce my guest, Megan Rosker from the May Center for Learning. Megan, thank you for joining us.
Megan Rosker:Thank you for having me.
Abe Baldonado:Yeah. Have you ever been on a podcast before?
Megan Rosker:No. It's my first one. Awesome. You have the honor of being the first one.
Abe Baldonado:Perfect. Awesome. Well, I am honored that your first podcast is on the Chili Wire. I gotta ask, what's your since we are the Chili Wire, red or green?
Megan Rosker:Red.
Abe Baldonado:Red? Okay. Yeah. Awesome. Yeah.
Abe Baldonado:I think you're the first person that has said red. I think most people are usually like Christmas.
Megan Rosker:Oh, it's the the bipartisan thing to say, which
Abe Baldonado:is Christmas. Perhaps. Megan, just would love an opportunity for you to share a little bit about the May Center for Learning and also what you do with the May Center.
Megan Rosker:Sure. So I am the admissions director and outreach director for May Center for Learning, which is a school in Santa Fe that serves neurodivergent learners. We've been around for about fifteen years. The school was originally founded with the idea of serving dyslexic learners. And what we found over the course of time that we've been open is that dyslexia often comes with many other neurodivergencies.
Megan Rosker:So we have a large population of children that not only have a language based learning difference but also might have ADHD, level one autism, sensory processing disorders, other these other things. So it's a very interesting and colorful community of kiddos that it's it's very fun. I encourage anyone, if they're in the area and they're interested in learning about our school to stop by for a visit because it's pretty unique.
Abe Baldonado:Absolutely. And to break it down for some of our viewers, neurodivergent is just ultimately a different way of your brain processing. Correct?
Megan Rosker:So it is a neurobiological difference means it is a physical difference in how information is going through your brain and processing. It is not behavioral. Right? We know that our children are sometimes affected by, behavioral things that are maybe environmental or learned behaviors. That is not this.
Megan Rosker:So if you are a dyslexic learner or you're a dysgraphic learner, the information is quite literally being processed differently in your brain. And we have lots of science and lots of brain scans that back this up.
Abe Baldonado:Yeah. Do you all work with gifted children as well?
Megan Rosker:Yeah. So many of our kiddos, and it's not unusual to have children that are neurodivergent learners that are often gifted. Mhmm. So the the slang in in the community is also you'll hear people say, like, twice gifted.
Abe Baldonado:Yeah.
Megan Rosker:So that means, like, not only is someone dysgraphic, but maybe they have a really high IQ or something like that. Mhmm.
Abe Baldonado:Wonderful. Just to kinda get into some of the areas where you all fill in, there's a void void. And I'm a former charter school teacher. I'm a product of our traditional public schools. But I've been at the forefront of our charter school systems and also our traditional schools.
Abe Baldonado:Oftentimes,
Megan Rosker:there's
Abe Baldonado:not access to the professionals that are needed to work with these kids. And I and I think that's from what I've read of all the great work that you've done at the May Center. That's where the May Center kind of steps in is that y'all provide the professional resources and the folks who are actually trained in dyslexia education, but also your neurodivergent students. Y'all kind of fill that void with teachers who are actually trained in these programs who oftentimes, it's hard for traditional schools to find a person to have it every single school. So a lot of times, I've seen it myself where a lot of our students have lacked access to maybe some of the professionals that they need to assist them in their educational journey.
Megan Rosker:Yeah. Yes. So we our our population, is about 50 kids. And, every kid, like I said, at the school has a language based learning difference and then some other things as well often going on. And maybe they haven't been served in their, quote unquote, traditional school quite as well.
Megan Rosker:I too went to public school. I've been a charter school teacher. I've been a public school teacher. I was a homeschooling mom. I've been a private school teacher.
Megan Rosker:I've all, Megan.
Abe Baldonado:You're a jack of all trades.
Megan Rosker:All. And I can tell you that there is often a gap for the children that we serve because they're not intellectually impacted. So a lot of the services, the social services we have in our school and our culture will serve highly impacted individuals. Right? Mhmm.
Megan Rosker:But they don't fit into the traditional structure of the school either.
Abe Baldonado:Right.
Megan Rosker:And so then you end up with this kiddo that is just kind of on the fringe not getting served. Right? Right. And sometimes becomes a disruption in the classroom or parents or teachers are frustrated because they feel like they they can't reach the kid. Mhmm.
Megan Rosker:They know there's a lot there. They know they're perfectly smart, but they're not able to really unlock and walk through the door necessary to access that kiddo's intellect.
Abe Baldonado:Right. Yeah. And I've experienced that even in my years of teaching. I kinda noticed that as well. Like and, you know, oftentimes you think, oh, the child may just be acting out, but there's some needs not being met there that oftentimes, you know, no one's thinking about.
Abe Baldonado:Like, oh, there's a piece missing here for this child to have Right. Support system that can actually work with them and, like you said, get them kind of out and show their true selves. So that's terrific. I do wanna talk a little or learn a little bit about the training that you put your educators through. I I saw that the May Center does a lot of professional development for their teachers, and I thought that was wonderful.
Abe Baldonado:Yeah.
Megan Rosker:So not only our teachers. We actually do professional development all over the state, and there's a lot of school districts around the state that work with us. And as far as our teachers go, they are trained in a structured literacy program that is used for dyslexic students called Sequential English Education. We call it CSEE. It is a program out of the Dallas, the Shelton School in Dallas, Texas.
Megan Rosker:So, we were trained there, and then we brought it here. We trained our teachers, you know, that kind of thing. And then, online, we have a dyslexia specialist cohort that we do twice a year that folks can teachers can sign up for and take and their scholarships available and whatnot as well for folks to get that training. And then they can take that training back into their regular ed classrooms. Or if they're reading interventionists, they can take it back to their their their schools or their special ed classrooms.
Megan Rosker:But we've served a lot of teachers that way as well. So those folks are re those folks are getting the same training that we use at May Center.
Abe Baldonado:Oh, okay.
Megan Rosker:And then we also have developed our own kind of methods over the years, and we call it the May Way. And the idea is to keep the class sizes really, really small and function kind of as a lab school so we can see what best practices are for neurodivergent learners. The other important piece of this is is that the things that often work for our neurodivergent learners also work for children that have suffered from social emotional trauma. Mhmm. A lot of the same a lot of same methods, and it kind of mirrors neurobiologically sometimes what's the the best ways for the kiddo to learn.
Megan Rosker:So this is super important in New Mexico. We have a lot of children, that have suffered educational trauma. Mhmm. We have kiddos that are suffering from social emotional issues, you know, due to all kinds of things in our state and in our rural areas especially. And so we can take these methods, and we can serve a lot of learners through these same the same sort of methods that we use.
Abe Baldonado:That that's amazing. And I I saw that you work with, like, groups like CES, LEAP Mhmm. Which their alternative licensure Yeah. Program. I I was an alternative licensed teacher.
Abe Baldonado:So Yeah. It's great to even help those educators. And so I'm just curious. So with the training that you all give and I think was it 2019 or 2020 that the dyslexia bill passed? I believe it was I think it 2020?
Abe Baldonado:2019?
Megan Rosker:I think it was '19.
Abe Baldonado:I think it was '19 too. Yeah. Somewhere around. It was right before COVID. But I I think that opened up probably a lot of doors for you all in the work that you're doing.
Abe Baldonado:Yeah. But as part of the work that you all do to train these educators across the state to also be aware of what dyslexia looks like for maybe kids who haven't been diagnosed Right.
Megan Rosker:So that bill allowed every first grader in the state, right, to be screened for dyslexia. The walking that forward now, here we are five ish years later, is what we've discovered is that while that has been implemented, the challenge now is to use the data. So parents don't always hear or know what happens with that data. And APS or any big school district is not in the business of diagnosing.
Abe Baldonado:Right.
Megan Rosker:So their job is only to identify characteristics, and then it is up to the parent to walk forward for their screening.
Abe Baldonado:Okay.
Megan Rosker:Right? So that's something your audience should know.
Abe Baldonado:Yeah. No. That's good to know. And just curious, I haven't seen the data, but maybe you have. Have we seen increased screenings?
Abe Baldonado:Like, are more parents right now getting screened, or is it still more of an educational outreach, issue where we're having to let parents know that this is something that's available for them to do?
Megan Rosker:I think it depends on where you are. Okay. I think there are populations of people in our state that might know that those screenings are happening. I also think we have a lot of people that don't even know that those screenings are happening. Yeah.
Megan Rosker:And they certainly don't know that they need to speak up and ask for that information. Or if they get a letter home that my child is, you know, showing characteristics of that and I need to take further steps, they don't know what to do next.
Abe Baldonado:Right.
Megan Rosker:Right? There's routes forward that you can use services within the school district that can help screen kids further than that first grade screener that that we have in place. And then there's also going the private route or through your pediatrician, and you can get your child screened that way as well.
Abe Baldonado:Okay. Wonderful. Very informative, very educational This for
Megan Rosker:is actually the piece that's so important. People don't parents don't always know their rights for to what to ask for
Abe Baldonado:Right.
Megan Rosker:Or how to walk it forward because it can feel intimidating.
Abe Baldonado:Absolutely. And then I think about there's also a crucial piece of early intervention Yes. As well. And I I mean, have you all seen that, like, where you get kids very early on that you're able to make that difference because you were able to provide a service to them very early on versus later in their educational track.
Megan Rosker:Absolutely. Yeah. So, I think the other piece of really crucial information that parents need to understand I was a kindergarten teacher for a long time. We have a pre k in, at the May Center. I can tell you that if your child is showing signs of dyslexia when they are little or they're having trouble doing things like remembering the names of letters or connecting the letter and the the the sound.
Megan Rosker:Right? The sound symbol recognition. If they aren't rhyming, parents don't often realize that that's a sign as well. These sorts of things can be seen in a really young child. We don't need to wait till a child is failing in third or fourth grade.
Megan Rosker:We need to be probably be a little more self reflective when the kid's young to say, I know that so and so in my family struggled with reading, even if not immediate family member. These things are hereditary. Yeah. There's a huge hereditary component. So if you've got an uncle somewhere that struggled in school and, oh, you know, that he's the family story of, like, oh, man.
Megan Rosker:So and so was so smart, but he just couldn't get school. Like, we know those people in our family. Right? Yeah. And your kid is showing signs of really struggling in preschool and kindergarten, take it seriously and and start asking questions.
Megan Rosker:And you can start with your pediatrician. If you have a special ed teacher in your school, if you have a really informed reading interventionist at your school, somebody like that, start asking questions. It is not too early. Yeah. The more we do in their little, the better.
Abe Baldonado:Yeah. And I think about as you said, we all know people in our families that maybe have that same thing. And a lot of times it's, oh, they're lazy. They're, you know Totally. Whatever.
Abe Baldonado:Like, they're not And trying so it's it's good to know that that that might be the indicator if you have a child to say, oh, maybe it's something else.
Megan Rosker:Yeah. I mean, I I run into teachers and well meaning parents and and leadership all the time in schools that, think that, oh, we'll we can just push we can push through. Right? We can just push through. I mean, they if they're dys graphic, they they did those notes to that note taking activity yesterday, and they did great.
Megan Rosker:But what we also need to understand is that our neurodivergent learners are excellent at masking. Yeah. Nobody wants to stick out in their elementary school classroom. Right? So they are gonna put all their effort and strain all that they have to to be able to get through that activity and appear, quote unquote, normal.
Abe Baldonado:Normal. Right? Yeah.
Megan Rosker:Is that really humane? Like, would we be asking people that had a very noticeable visible physical difference to just push through? Because the neurobiological differences we're talking about are just as impactful.
Abe Baldonado:Right.
Megan Rosker:They're just not seen.
Abe Baldonado:Yeah. You can't see them. Right. Yeah. That's that's a great point.
Abe Baldonado:And, Megan, so I we talked a little bit about literacy. Mhmm. I'd love to hear your thoughts and also just share information on structured literacy of what you all do around the literacy aspect over at the May Center. And I know when we first started chatting, you had shared with me, you know, your thoughts on structured literacy. Where are we at now as a state with structured literacy, and where do you see us going with it?
Megan Rosker:Well, I don't have a crystal ball, unfortunately. Right now, I feel the general flavor is that we are headed, in support of structured literacy in most districts across the state. There is, unfortunately, a lot of misinformation about what structured literacy is in our state. So I'm gonna take a minute to clarify.
Abe Baldonado:Yeah. Absolutely. Please do. That's what we're here for.
Megan Rosker:Okay. So one of the unique things about New Mexico is that we are live in an incredibly culturally diverse state.
Abe Baldonado:Absolutely.
Megan Rosker:And we have more Spanish speakers in our state than we do English. We also have a huge population of native speakers. Right?
Abe Baldonado:Mhmm.
Megan Rosker:And this creates a culture of language that is very different from pretty much anywhere else I've ever lived and worked. Maybe we could probably have conversations with Arizona. They're probably, you know, having some similar Yeah. Maybe Texas as well. We could all get together and have a little, a big board meeting.
Megan Rosker:But it's pretty unique situation. The thing about structured literacy in our state is that it often gets interpreted as being an English only curriculum. Structured literacy and the science of reading, which often get conflated those two terms often get conflated. So you'll hear both used kind of interchangeably. It is not English only.
Megan Rosker:In fact, down in Gadsden, which is down, you know, in the southern part of our state, they use a structured literacy program that is in both Spanish and English. The way that we teach any Latin language, Spanish, French, Italian, is through a lens and a framework of structured literacy. We just don't have we just have never called it that.
Abe Baldonado:Right.
Megan Rosker:Right? So in South America, when children are coming up through the schools and they're learning most likely Spanish, right, maybe Portuguese, they are learning these same foundational skills of structured literacy that we would like to employ here in New Mexico and any other state that has adopted structured literacy as a statewide intervention for their kiddos, right, or curriculums that are, based in structured literacy. We have a lot of people in our state that feel very strongly that if we use a structured, literacy format, we are going to, be hurting native cultures or Hispanic cultures. This is not true. All of these languages, including many of our larger, native languages, could be and can't and are taught through structured literacy.
Megan Rosker:Yeah. Okay? And we have people at the university levels that can speak much more to this. There's PhDs and linguists all over the place that could speak to how that could get done. If a language has sound and syllables that can be put together and seen on paper and read like Navajo can be.
Megan Rosker:Right? You can use the principles of structured literacy to teach that language. It just has to have that sound symbol correspondence.
Abe Baldonado:Right.
Megan Rosker:Right? The real question we need to be asking is not whether or not we should be using structured literacy. The answer is absolutely yes. The answer the question really should be, why are we not adopting biliteracy structured literacy programs?
Abe Baldonado:Yeah.
Megan Rosker:Because we need our students, and many of them are coming from languages of broken languages, multiple broken languages. Right? Right. They come to school not speaking all the way Spanish. They come with a little bit of English.
Megan Rosker:They might come with a little bit of a native language from home as well, and it's it becomes like this mix. Why are we not teaching the foundational components of those languages in multiple languages? Yeah. That can absolutely be done. It is beneficial to all, especially our neurodivergent read, learners.
Megan Rosker:There's nothing to say that if you are dyslexic or dysgraphic, you cannot speak and read in multiple languages. So the the arguments and the conversations are a little bit off track in that regard.
Abe Baldonado:That's good to know.
Megan Rosker:And people really need to understand that in no way are those of us that work in the structured literacy space or the science of reading space coming to appropriate anybody's culture. That is not what is happening. In fact, if we can teach foundational languages skills, and that includes, you know, the phonics Mhmm. You know, things
Abe Baldonado:bring up phonics.
Megan Rosker:Phonics, phonemic awareness. It includes that. It also includes reading comprehension
Abe Baldonado:Mhmm.
Megan Rosker:Vocabulary, song, poetry, oral storytelling. These are huge traditions in our state, all of which are absolutely necessary to create a literate human being. Absolutely. You cannot have isolated phonics instruction and have a literate human being that's gonna walk out into the world and be able to advocate for the community. Right.
Megan Rosker:You have to be able to have all of those strands come together to create a person that's gonna be able to speak well, to read well, and to write well so they can advocate for their community, so they can stand up out of many of the things that have inhibited people from moving forward in our state.
Abe Baldonado:Yeah. And have some skills to market themselves in their career and knowing multiple languages. You know, Megan, as we're chatting, I think about I taught at a dual language charter school, and I think potentially our dual language charter schools can lead that effort. Right? To maybe be a pilot program to for structured literacy and biliteracy Mhmm.
Abe Baldonado:And to see how that works.
Megan Rosker:More than likely, they're already doing it in Spanish. Yeah. California and Texas are doing it. Like I said, Gadsden's doing it. This is not I'm I'm not proposing something radical here.
Megan Rosker:We just need to kinda, like, get up to date with what this is and perhaps bring the discussion, into a place that's a little more inclusive of of under an understanding of what structured literacy is.
Abe Baldonado:Actually is. Yeah. And what the science of reading is
Megan Rosker:Yeah.
Abe Baldonado:And how they mesh, but also how they're different. We saw that during the legislative session. There were folks who were opposed to the science of reading, and I just felt like maybe they just didn't understand it. It was actually really good policy. But it it's good to get someone who's at the forefront like yourself to explain it to to many of the folks who maybe are like, yeah.
Abe Baldonado:I hear the science of reading. I hear structured literacy. I have no idea what it means. Right.
Megan Rosker:We we know a lot about how the brain learns at this point. We have scientists, people way smarter than me sitting in rooms studying the brain and how it learns.
Abe Baldonado:Yep.
Megan Rosker:And need to follow what they have shown us works for the brain. Yeah. And Leverage we need to follow if your brain is working differently like it does in a dyslexic learner, then we need to follow the science of how that person learns.
Abe Baldonado:Yeah.
Megan Rosker:It really has nothing to do with what language you speak. This can be done in most languages. I'm not gonna say all. I've heard some of our legislators say it can be done in any language. That is not true.
Megan Rosker:If you do not have a written language, that is an avenue that needs to be explored further by linguists, and I'm not gonna claim that. But is is there an opportunity there to especially, I just think, especially with some of the creative things that are happening now with with AI, is there is there some way that we could, like, dig in and figure this out so that these languages don't die? Right. Because I think that's a really important part of keeping people's culture intact is having the languages. And we have our the elders of these communities are are leaving us quickly.
Abe Baldonado:Yeah. Well, I I even think about my grandparents who used to give a hard time for not speaking Spanish.
Megan Rosker:There you go.
Abe Baldonado:I speak it a little bit. My wife will probably laugh and say, no, you don't. But I try. But, you know, yeah, I'm a product of that generation that, you know, that culture has kind of faded away with our grandparents.
Megan Rosker:Yeah.
Abe Baldonado:And our even our own parents who, you know, I wasn't my parents spoke Spanish, but I never really picked it up. And looking back, I wish I had at a younger age. Me, I feel like it's a lot harder to learn it now as an adult than had I been and I was exposed to it. I won't say I wasn't exposed, but I also wasn't, like, taught, like, in that way. You know?
Abe Baldonado:Especially, like, in the public school, like, it was strictly English. And so
Megan Rosker:Well and I think that's where this belief comes from. Right? So we have a long history of educational trauma and abuse that's happened in New Mexico where native languages and Spanish and things were like, we're not gonna do that.
Abe Baldonado:Well, it used to get in trouble. We were they can say what happened. I mean Yeah. That was horrific. Trouble.
Abe Baldonado:I've heard from family members that used to get in trouble with our speaking Spanish in schools.
Megan Rosker:Absolutely. And so I think there's I think there's there's so much trauma there. And just like when you deal with, you know, personal trauma in your life and you have to, you know, work that out with a therapist or whatever, this is sort of similar, but we're dealing with it, like, on a huge cultural level.
Abe Baldonado:Yeah.
Megan Rosker:Right? We can't ignore that those things happened. We cannot ignore that people were hurt and abused over their culture and language. That happened. Yeah.
Megan Rosker:But it's a choice now as to how do we wanna move forward. I think, and I like to I like to have to be a little bit hopeful and have a little bit of faith in humanity that we have reached a point where we can say, all of these cultures are important. All of these cultures need to be part of our history and our future. Language is an important part of that. Mhmm.
Megan Rosker:How do we bring together our advocates that, are supportive of all those cultures in our state that we that we need to have those advocates there so we don't repeat this culture or this this, this history? Right? How do we have those people come together with what we know is the science of how people learn? How do we get on the same page?
Abe Baldonado:Yeah.
Megan Rosker:Okay? Because those two things do not need to be a binary.
Abe Baldonado:Right. Yeah. That's powerful.
Megan Rosker:Thank you.
Abe Baldonado:Well, Megan, just to wrap up here.
Megan Rosker:Yeah.
Abe Baldonado:You are a fellow changemaker now.
Megan Rosker:I am. Yes.
Abe Baldonado:Welcome to the club. You're cohort five.
Megan Rosker:Yes.
Abe Baldonado:Cohort five. I'm cohort three, so congratulations.
Megan Rosker:Thank you.
Abe Baldonado:How's your experience been in changemakers? You know, I I was really enlightened even having been a public school teacher and, you know, coming from that background yourself as an educator. It's just it's really informative. You still learn a lot of new things, and you get to meet great people from different backgrounds that you just kinda share ideas with. And I'm just curious what your experience has been like.
Megan Rosker:So it's really interesting to me. So I was a Teacher for America teacher, and then I did other advocacy work and then got
Abe Baldonado:I love my TFA teachers. A lot of my friends are TFA I
Megan Rosker:was here, a TFA teacher. Yeah. So I am I am really enjoying that there's people from outside of education in change makers, but that are interested in education. Yeah. Because I think what happens a lot of times as an education advocate, you're kind of, like, swimming in this in in the conversation so much that you kind of lose perspective
Abe Baldonado:Yeah. Sometimes. To people, the same lingo
Megan Rosker:with the same the same ling and I know the same people, and they know the same legislation, and they know the right? So what was so fascinating, like, in our first in our first meeting that we had was I was like, oh my gosh. I am actually the only one that has this much experience in education, and that's so refreshing.
Abe Baldonado:Yeah. Yeah. Well, and it's also great because what I learned too is I got to sit next to people who are now lifelong friends.
Megan Rosker:Right.
Abe Baldonado:But getting to just kinda share with them my experience, whether it be in the classroom or as a school board member for a charter school that I sat on in Santa Fe. But just kinda sharing the unique perspective that I had, but also one that they hadn't seen or heard of. And today, we're seeing change makers running for school board and getting involved and which is really exciting. So I'm really excited you're part of the cohort, and I'm sure your group is going to lean on you quite a bit to ask a lot of questions and be like, hey, Megan, is this true? Is this right?
Abe Baldonado:Like, what do you think?
Megan Rosker:You know, we're doing we're doing our best to walk it forward.
Abe Baldonado:Absolutely. Yeah. Well, Megan, before we wrap up, just want to give you a moment. Where can people go to learn more about the May Center if they're interested in learning more about what you all do and perhaps even for their own children?
Megan Rosker:Yeah. So, we can certainly go to the May Center website, maycenter.org. We also have a Substack. You can search Substack for May Center
Abe Baldonado:Okay.
Megan Rosker:For learning. I do most of the writing over there. So if this is not enough of me and you want to go find more, you can find more of me there. And then we also do as far as for their kiddos, we have the school. We also have a couple of things that people might want to know about.
Megan Rosker:In November, up in Santa Fe, we have Dyslexia Justice League conference that is open to families and kids and teachers, and it's very community oriented. And that's a really great event. It's November 8. In the summer, we also run a summer program called Summer Leap, which is a very concentrated six week program for structured literacy and writing for support. It's, very popular, here in Albuquerque, and we also run up one up in Santa Fe as well.
Abe Baldonado:Wonderful. Well, Megan, thank you. Thank you to the May Center for the work that you all do You're very welcome. To set up our students for success. So thank you for joining the Chile Wire.
Abe Baldonado:That wraps up this week's episode. Thank you all very much. And if you haven't subscribed and you're not following, please do so now. We'll see you next time.