Mentorship is an Ecosystem

Building the next generation of STEM leaders

What makes someone a great mentor? And can effective mentorship be learned?

In this episode of Stat Speaking with JMP, we had the joy of speaking with Dr. Suzanne Barbour, Dean of The Graduate School and Vice Provost for Graduate Education at Duke University. Together, Barbour and JMP’s Anne Milley explore how mentorship shapes scientists, leaders, and the culture of STEM as a whole. 

Barbour shares the story of the mentor who recognized her potential before she could see it herself. She also explains why strong mentoring depends on more than good intentions: It requires clear expectations, honest communication and an understanding of what helps people develop competence, autonomy, and a sense of belonging.

Their conversation explores:

• Why a single mentoring style does not work for everyone.
 • How mentors can help emerging scientists build confidence and independence.
 • Why students need a network of mentors.
 • How scientists can learn from failure without being defined by it.
 • What experienced leaders can learn from the next generation.
 • How AI and rapid change are reshaping leadership in STEM.
 • Why mentorship should be treated as an ecosystem, not simply a one-to-one relationship.

Whether you are a mentor, mentee, educator, researcher, or leader, this conversation offers a thoughtful look at how we can better support the people – and shape the scientific culture – coming after us.

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Creators and Guests

Host

Anne Milley

With the goal of sharing best practices in data-driven decision making, Anne Milley has spent a career telling the stories of people who make their worlds better through analytics. As JMP’s Statistical Ambassador, Milley’s statistical curiosity takes her beyond borders and across industries. She has a master's in economics from Florida Atlantic University, did post-graduate work at Rheinisch-Westfälische Technische Hochschule Aachen, and is proficient in German.

Producer

Henry Moore III

Henry Moore III is an event technology specialist and live production veteran at JMP Statistical Discovery, where he brings more than a decade of AV and broadcast experience to events around the world. As technical director for Stat Speaking with JMP, he designed and runs the studio the show is recorded in, handling the cameras, audio, and signal flow that let a conversation sound like a conversation. Off the clock, he builds software, makes music, and keeps up with his wife and two kids.

Producer

Sarah Cromer

Sarah Cromer is a communications professional and storyteller at JMP Statistical Discovery, where she helps make complex ideas engaging and accessible through video, social media, and digital content. As a producer of *Stat Speaking with JMP*, she works behind the scenes to shape thoughtful conversations about statistics, mentorship, and the people driving discovery forward. When she's not working, Sarah enjoys time with her family, her dog, and playing in her garden.

Guest

Suzanne Barbour

Dr. Suzanne Barbour is the Dean of the Graduate School and Vice Provost for Graduate Education at Duke University. Prior to Duke, Barbour served as the dean of The Graduate School at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill (2019-2022) and the University of Georgia (2015-2019). She has served as program director in the Division of Molecular and Cellular Biosciences at the National Science Foundation and as a professor of biochemistry and molecular biology in the School of Medicine at Virginia Commonwealth University.

What is Stat Speaking with JMP?

Conversations shaped by data | Stat Speaking with JMP brings together scientists, statisticians, engineers, and innovators to explore how data influences the way we work, lead, and understand the world.

Stat Speaking with JMP Transcript
Mentorship is an Ecosystem: Building the next generation of STEM leaders
Transcript
Anne Milley 00:09
What do we owe the scientists coming after us? Not only as mentors, but as stewards of the culture they will inherit. Welcome to Stat Speaking with JMP, the podcast for the statistically curious. I'm your host, Anne Milley, and today I have the pleasure of being joined by Dr. Suzanne Barbour, Dean of the Graduate School and Vice Provost for Graduate Education at Duke University, where she's also a professor of cell biology. Suzanne began her career as a biochemist and has spent decades working at the intersection of scientific research, mentorship, and graduate education. She has served as a faculty member, program director at the National Science Foundation, and dean of three graduate schools. Throughout her career, she has remained committed to helping emerging scientists develop not only the expertise to succeed, but also the confidence, independence, and resilience to shape the future of their fields. In this episode, we'll explore whether good mentorship can be taught, what experienced and emerging scientists can learn from one another, and why preparing the next generation of STEM leaders requires us to think beyond individual relationships and consider the culture of science itself. Suzanne, thank you so much for being here. We're so excited to host you.
Suzanne Barbour 01:29
Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to have this conversation about my favorite topic.
Anne Milley 01:33
Wonderful. Well, let's dive in. When you think about mentors who most influenced you, what did they recognize in you before maybe you recognized it in yourself?
Suzanne Barbour 01:43
Yeah, it's a great question. I think the mentor who probably most influenced me was a faculty member who I met when I was in graduate school, and I didn't work in his lab. I never even published with him until many, many years later when we were both on faculty at the same university. But I took a course with him, and at the time I took the course, I was new in the graduate program. I was coming from a chemistry background. I knew almost nothing about the subject area, and I just felt like a complete imposter. But he had us write a grant about a topic of our interest, and so we had to come up with the grant. We had to come up with the hypothesis. We had to come up with the experimental design, and we ultimately had to come up with the mechanisms of analysis. And I wrote a grant that he just loved. He gave me an A plus on the grant, and he said, I know you've struggled through the courses. I know some of your lab rotations have gone, eh, not so great, but you've got this. If you can independently design an experiment and design a way to analyze the data that come from that experiment, then I know you can get through this. And so he saw that in me in ways that I didn't see it. And honestly, I wouldn't be sitting here in front of you if that hadn't happened.
Anne Milley 02:50
Oh, wow, that's an amazing story. And it shows that you need to give people opportunities to shine in different lights.
Suzanne Barbour 02:56
Absolutely. I think giving people a chance to shine makes a big difference. An awful lot of students I've known and interacted with over the years have been, I call them diamonds in the rough. So given the diamond and the rough, the opportunity to shine is really what it's all about.
Anne Milley 03:11
Yes, because we all have contributions we need to make.
Suzanne Barbour 03:14
Absolutely.
Anne Milley 03:15
Well, how has your understanding of good mentorship changed as you have moved from researcher to mentor to dean?
Suzanne Barbour 03:23
So this person that I just told you about, his name is Dan Conrad. He was a faculty member at Johns Hopkins where I did my PhD, now retired, still a really, really good friend of mine. He just had a magic touch when it came to mentoring. And when I first started mentoring students, I was very, I was very robotic. I used the same approach with every student. It was all about telling them what to do, expecting them to do it. And then if they didn't do it or if they pushed back saying, well, you should have listened to me because after all, I'm the faculty member. I'm the one who knows it all. And that's not the way you mentor people. You mentor people by empowering them. I didn't know how to empower. At the same time, I had this incredible role model, which is this guy, Dan Conrad, who I told you what he did for me. Well, I saw that play out again and again and again with him, with student after student after student. Years later, after I graduated from graduate school, he and I were on faculty in the same department. In fact, he recruited me to that department. And I watched him take students who were mediocre students at best. He just barely crawled out of the courses, to be completely honest. And he turned them into absolutely stellar scientists. And I always asked him, Dan, what is your secret? How do you make this happen? And he could never tell me how because it just came naturally to him. Fast forward 30 years and I was at a North Carolina Council of Graduate Schools meeting. There was a little team that came to the meeting and they talked about ways to empower staff. And they talked about a psychological theory called self-determination theory, which I'm not a psychologist. I've never heard of that before. But basically, what SDT says is that people are motivated by feeling competent, by having a sense of autonomy, and by having a sense of belonging. And that's Dan's secret thoughts. That's exactly what he does. He empowers people. He gives them the sense that they can do it. There's the competence. He gives them the sense that he cares about them. There's the belonging. And then he makes it clear to them that, you know, this is yours. I'm here to help you, but ultimately, this is your show. You're going to run the show and your success is your success. That's your autonomy. Wow. So that's the secret sauce I think I've learned over my many years. And if I had the opportunity to go back to my lab and interact with my students again, I would tap into that and I'm sure my students would be much more successful. And my lab would be much more successful if I embraced that.
Anne Milley 05:39
What a wonderful story. And it hints at your colleague, Dan, also having a bit of humility to show that he's a human and that that's another connection point because we're all human and we all try things and sometimes they don't succeed, but they need the encouragement.
Suzanne Barbour 05:53
And so much of science is things that don't succeed. The experiment doesn't work the first time around. It doesn't mean you abandon the project. It means you step back and you say, okay, how do I adjust and do it differently? I think another thing we as mentors sometimes don't do that our students would be well served by is admitting our own shortcomings, our own failures. And that's hard, especially when you're a junior faculty member and you're new to the game. If you're a woman and you're in a male-dominated field, if you're underrepresented in any way, sometimes you worry about showing weakness because weakness will be perceived as, well, it's the imposter syndrome thing. But I think our students need to see that because then they recognize that it's okay to fail. And we're all human.
Anne Milley 06:33
And we're all human.
Suzanne Barbour 06:34
And for so many of our students, they're so incredibly accomplished, they've never failed. They don't know what failure is until they come to that first experiment that just doesn't go their way.
Anne Milley 06:43
Right.
Suzanne Barbour 06:44
So if we can just model the behavior, it's okay to fail as soon as you learn from failure.
Anne Milley 06:48
Exactly.
Suzanne Barbour 06:49
I think that would make a big difference.
Anne Milley 06:50
And if you're not failing, you're not trying anything new.
Suzanne Barbour 06:52
Exactly. Exactly, yeah.
Anne Milley 06:54
Wonderful. Well, we often talk about mentorship as being someone that's just a natural mentor. What skills actually make someone effective? You hinted at it a little bit already just talking about Dan, but what else would you say that we should just differentiate between a natural mentor and cultivating better mentorship?
Suzanne Barbour 07:11
I think it all starts with aligning expectations and communication. Note, everyone has a different communication style. And different communication styles sometimes can lead to friction if they don't align. And sometimes they can be just absolutely beautiful. Most of the time, those things are somewhere in between. There's some friction, there are times of friction, and there are times when communication styles are well aligned. And so I think recognizing that we all communicate differently, that the way one appears is not always the way one wants to appear. It's part of the equation. The other piece of it I would say is aligning expectations, making it clear to your students that there's certain things that you expect them to do, you expect them to happen on a certain timeline. You're there to support them and help them get through them, but ultimately they kind of have to deliver. Going back to the self-determination theory, part of the autonomy piece is giving the student a sense of what the expectations are and then giving them the rope to go out there and meet your expectations. I think one of the hardest things a lot of mentors face, and I certainly face that even now when I'm working with staff, is how you deliver the critical news when you need to talk to somebody about not meeting expectations, when you have to make it clear that they need to step up their game. And honestly, if you've set the expectations at the beginning, I think that makes that kind of conversation easier as well, because you go back to the aligned expectations, the expectations you've agreed on from the beginning, and you ask the person, do you think you've met expectations? And if not, why didn't you meet them? What can we do to get you back on track? So I think communication and aligning expectations are absolutely, absolutely critical.
Anne Milley 08:47
So just to make it clear, do you think that expectation alignment is also lining out the responsibilities for the mentor and the responsibilities for the mentee?
Suzanne Barbour 08:55
Absolutely, on both sides. One thing a number of our faculty do at Duke, which I think is a really brilliant thing, they have these things, we call them mentor-mentee compacts. Sometimes they're called laboratory agreements, but basically the faculty member lays out how the lab works, when the lab meetings happen, when individual meetings happen with students, what they expect a student to bring to the table when they come into a meeting. And at the same time, they expect the student to indicate what they need. So as a student, I don't want you to check in on me every day. I need you to check on me at least weekly. I need you to read my work. I need you to help me put my presentations together. Those are the kinds of things that help a mentor know how to serve an individual student. One size doesn't fit all when it comes to mentoring. And so having a sense of what each individual student needs and tailoring the mentoring to the degree it can to serve the needs of an individual student is really important. And if I could throw one other thing in there, I think another thing we have to recognize is that not everyone is meant to mentor every student. There's some students who are going to need mentoring from someone other than their major advisor. And you talked about humility earlier. That's another humility point. Getting to the point where you say, I've got this brilliant student who's got tremendous potential, but I'm just not the right person to mentor them is really hard. And one of the things we start to encourage folks to think about now is the idea that you have a mentoring team. In fact, we encourage students to develop something we call a mentoring map where they basically say, well, here are my needs. Here are the kinds of people I need to fill those needs. And so I'm going to work with Professor so-and-so on this thing and Professor so-and-so on that thing. Maybe I'm working with somebody completely outside the university on a professional development element that I need that I can't get from the university. But it's that constellation of support, constellation of mentoring that ultimately gets the student what they need.
Anne Milley 10:48
Wow, and it forces the student to think about how multifaceted they are.
Suzanne Barbour 10:52
It does. It does. And it gives the student an opportunity to have some agency, too. Again, we're going back to autonomy. They're in control of the ship, and they get to map out the group of mentors they need that are going to help them steer the ship and ultimately get to the destination they want to get to.
Anne Milley 11:10
I can imagine that some students might struggle with certain life situations and how the mentors respond to that. Maybe some of them want to be distracted by the extra work and throw themselves in, but maybe they need a little space sometimes.
Suzanne Barbour 11:22
Yeah, absolutely. And more and more of our students are non-traditional students. We still have many students who come directly out of undergraduate and have relatively simple lives, because some of our students have really complex lives. And when they leave the lab in the evening, they're going home to manage a variety of things. They can't just sit down and analyze the data that they collected during the day. And so I think it's important for us to recognize, again, that one mentoring style isn't going to fit all. And if we are to serve all these wonderful diamonds in the rough, we have to ensure that our mentoring style is flexible and that we're open to allowing students to take on their autonomy and build their competence and ultimately feel a sense of belonging in whatever way is going to suit them best.
Anne Milley 12:05
And if you're doing such a fantastic job, as it sounds like you are, that might be hard for them to transition to a new workplace if they don't have all that.
Suzanne Barbour 12:12
But then they learn how to advocate for themselves, right? Well, and hopefully they've learned some skills that they can use with their own students or their own, whoever it is that they end up mentoring in their lives. And ultimately, what we're hoping is that by modeling the behavior, we're also teaching students, we're pulling them into a culture of mentoring that they will ultimately take with them into their workplaces, into their labs if they choose to be independent investigators. Hopefully it perpetuates itself.
Anne Milley 12:39
Right. So you're enabling them, but you're also showing them, and you can enable others.
Suzanne Barbour 12:43
Absolutely.
Anne Milley 12:44
Wonderful. So what can experienced scientists learn from the generation entering the field now?
Suzanne Barbour 12:50
Yeah, this is a really interesting generation, this Generation Z. And then some of us quite frequently are struggling with them because they are very, very different than the students we've mentored in the past. They present younger than previous students did. So in some ways, the need for belonging is more than it's been in the past. They also present with some challenges, sometimes in taking criticism and managing constructive criticism in ways that are productive. And so we have to be a little more sensitive to their needs than we were in the past. That said, they're also more willing to make their needs known to us than students were in the past. And I think that's something we can learn from them that's tremendously helpful. You know, no one can satisfy your needs if you don't make those needs known. And this generation has been much more up front about admitting their challenges. In the past, it was difficult for us sometimes to know that a student had a lot of complex things happening outside the lab, and maybe we didn't know how to mentor a student through those things because we didn't know they were happening. This generation is much more likely to share that information with us up front and to make it clear that they have some limitations. And in order to be successful, we're going to have to work through those limitations. And so I think that openness is something this generation is bringing to the table certainly doesn't typify my generation, but I think it's making our working relationships much stronger. And again, when I think about this generation of students going out and mentoring the next generation of students, I think that openness, humility, honesty, and frankness is going to serve them really well.
Anne Milley 14:26
Interesting how we cycle through things, but change is the one thing we can count on on so many levels. Interesting. So speaking of Gen Z, what one piece of advice would you give these scientists as they enter their careers?
Suzanne Barbour 14:39
Lifelong learning, be a lifelong learner. The world is changing incredibly fast, and even in their short lives, they've seen that. We can't predict what the rate of change will be going forward, but I'm going to guess it'll get even faster. So you need to stay open to new opportunities, need to stay open to new learning experiences, need to be humble and recognize that you don't know it all and be a lifelong learner.
Anne Milley 15:03
Stay curious.
Suzanne Barbour 15:04
Stay curious.
Anne Milley 15:05
Wonderful.
Suzanne Barbour 15:06
Absolutely.
Anne Milley 15:07
What does resilience mean in an environment where failed experiments and setbacks are just part of the work?
Suzanne Barbour 15:13
Yeah, it's so huge. And if there's one thing our students need to learn and they need to learn it early, it's how to step back from failure, rethink, adjust, and move forward without a sense of shame, without a sense of unhappiness. Failure is only failure if you don't learn something from it. And I think our challenge is taking these incredible young people who've always been successful, they've never failed, and normalizing failure in that way. And this goes back to something we were talking about earlier, which is that as faculty, we also tend to hide from failure, or certainly we hide our own failures. And so I think the more we can model the sharing of failure, the recognition that it's part of life, it's part of science, and the recognition that it is only a failure if you don't learn from it and then ultimately grow from it. I think the better off we're going to be.
Anne Milley 16:09
I totally agree. And failure just carries out a lot of baggage. It's one of those words.
Suzanne Barbour 16:14
Yeah, it's hard.
Anne Milley 16:15
But if we learn from it, then that makes all the difference.
Suzanne Barbour 16:18
And with all the pressure, you know, it's harder and harder to get a grant and to keep a grant. It's harder to get into grad school than it was before. The job market is tighter than it was in the past. It's easy for us to say, we'll just learn from failure. But failure, it takes time, right? And every failure costs time and that every learning experience costs time. But in the end, what you learn, I think, ultimately serves you so well that it's time well spent. And the challenge is embracing that and helping our students to embrace it, too.
Anne Milley 16:50
Yeah, I feel for a lot of the students in these times, because there are new challenges, different challenges, but if they are passionate about what they do, they will carry them a long way. And with the encouragement that you give and others give, that also carries them a long way.
Suzanne Barbour 17:04
Yeah, great.
Anne Milley 17:05
You're enabling better science.
Suzanne Barbour 17:06
Yeah.
Anne Milley 17:07
And again, positioning people to go out and enable better science in their own right once they get through school. Yeah. Well, just a few more questions. What leadership capabilities will the next generation of scientists need that previous generations maybe have not been explicitly taught?
Suzanne Barbour 17:25
We're going to have to learn how to lead humans and non-humans. More and more, we're hearing from prospective employers that they're expecting our students to come out of graduate school with a strong sense of their own discipline. So they've got to have the technical skills and the theoretical background in their discipline, but they're also expecting them to be able to not only use AI, but to leverage AI to maximize the impact of that expertise. And so, of course, AI didn't exist when I was in school. We couldn't even have imagined it would exist. But that's a skill set we're going to have to teach our students. And in the process of teaching them that, we're also going to have to teach them that there are limitations on what AI can do, that there's the potential for bias in AI, and that there are ethical ways to use AI that will allow you to be successful and to be successful in ways that are reproducible and replicable. And there are also unethical ways of using AI. So I think we can't shy away from it anymore. Part of a student's management team in the future will likely be a combination of people and AI agents. And frankly, I don't think we're doing a terribly good job of that just yet. We're still learning how to do it ourselves. I think it's a big part of what we're going to have to do. I think we're also going to have to ensure our students have the leadership styles that are very, very flexible. The world is changing so quickly. The world is so incredibly fluid that the whole idea of a five-year strategic plan, forget about it. The world's going to change. Two years from now, what you set out in a five-year strategic plan may be totally inappropriate for where you want or need your team to go. And so we have to get our students thinking in a flexible mindset that allows them to pivot easily. Years ago, they used to say that a typical person had three or four jobs in the arc of their career. Well, now they're saying that our students who are walking out the door in 2026 are likely to have more than 10 different jobs in the arc of their career. And some of those jobs, there's a saying I've heard that the students who are graduating today will likely retire from career paths we can't even envision. So when you talk about what sort of leadership skills you want to build into these students, flexibility becomes the name of the game. We can't even imagine what their leadership is going to have to look like 30, 40, 45 years from now.
Anne Milley 19:46
Right. And to your point about the AI and the technology and the guardrails. And I do feel like more focused applications of AI letting it do very specific things, and you can still leverage the subject matter expertise that these students have built up in their areas of study. To me, those appear the most promising in the near term, but we'll see how things play out.
Suzanne Barbour 20:09
We'll see.
Anne Milley 20:10
Well, what do you hope today's graduate students will change about the culture of the STEM community?
Suzanne Barbour 20:15
Yeah, I hope today's graduate students will continue to use their Gen Z approach to life. And like I said before, it's a very open, honest, frank approach to life. You know, we in my generation, we were, I would say we were very static, very stoic. And this generation of students are much more dynamic. I think they're much better positioned to work through the dynamic changes that are happening in the world than we were. And so I hope when they move into leadership positions, I hope they'll continue to have that flexibility, have that open-mindedness. I hope they'll still be willing to engage with folks in ways that recognize difference and embrace difference. Those are things we didn't think about in my generation. We just thought about getting the job done. But getting the job done is about more than just meeting your strategic goals. It's about building effective teams, managing effective teams, and ensuring that everybody on the team feels valued. Going back to the beginning of our conversation, it goes back to self-determination theory, autonomy, belonging, and competence. I hope they'll use their very positive outlook on life to build autonomy, confidence, and belonging into every mentoring relationship they have. And I'd say if we can model that behavior for them while they're in school, we're more likely to see that happen for them.
Anne Milley 21:36
Yes, and I completely agree with you about, especially the belonging part and the problem-solving, because if they are a part of a team, if it becomes a team sport, then I think everybody is appreciated and everybody is valued for the contributions that they make to solve really complex problems that we face.
Suzanne Barbour 21:51
And it's more fun.
Anne Milley 21:52
Yes, and it's more fun. That's important. What is one thing that every mentor should be doing?
Suzanne Barbour 21:57
Every mentor should cut themselves some slack. These are tough times. A lot is changing. Some things are changing for the better. Some things maybe not so much for the better. Every mentor should give themselves the opportunity to be human, give themselves some grace. I think if we give ourselves some grace, then we'll be in better position to give our students the grace that they deserve as well. So, you know, the skies are a little bit dark right now in science. I've seen dark skies in science before. I've been around for a long time. The sun will come out again. And I think if we can give ourselves the grace that allows us to wait for the sun to come out again, we're going to serve our students well.
Anne Milley 22:35
I agree, and maybe a rainbow in between.
Suzanne Barbour 22:37
Absolutely.
Anne Milley 22:38
But you're so right. I think we all need to have more compassion for each other and for ourselves, because again, we are human.
Suzanne Barbour 22:44
Compassion starts at home.
Anne Milley 22:45
Yes, it does. I love that. Is there anything else you'd like to add?
Suzanne Barbour 22:49
Yeah, I think we should think of mentoring as an ecosystem. And everybody has a role to play. The students, their advisors, their committees, the graduate programs, even the graduate school has a role to play. One thing we put in place at Duke that I think is really helpful is to call the Core Expectations of Graduate Education. It's a document that was developed by the Executive Committee of the Graduate Faculty. Those are the leaders of the faculty who mentor our students. There was an old document in place that kind of had grown a little bit mossy. And last spring, they spent some time revisiting it, and they came up with seven core expectations. And each of those core expectations, in turn, was broken down in ways that showed the expectations of students, the expectations of faculty, the expectations of graduate programs, and the expectations of the graduate school around the core expectation. So some of them were very obvious core expectations like academic integrity. Building teams and collaboration was another core expectation. But another one that landed on the list that's incredibly important, that probably wouldn't have been there a generation ago, was the expectation of health and wellness. How do we ensure that our students remain healthy and well in the course of doing their graduate degrees? And, again, expectations are cited for students, for faculty, for graduate programs, and for graduate school. I think it's that ecosystem approach that will become important. And I think it's a really wonderful model that's been developed at Duke that I haven't seen in other graduate schools.
Anne Milley 24:14
I love that because the whole ecosystem needs to be healthy, and it shows respect for how that whole thing functions.
Suzanne Barbour 24:21
Absolutely. And it goes back to your question about faculty advisors taking care of themselves, too.
Anne Milley 24:26
Yes, wonderful. Thank you. Gosh, we could keep talking and talking, but that's all the time we have for today. Suzanne, thank you again for sharing your expertise and wisdom with us. Mentorship is about more than helping one person navigate a degree or build a career. It also shapes how science is practiced, how people work together, and what the next generation comes to believe is possible. If science really is a team sport, then supporting emerging scientists cannot rest on the instincts of a few naturally gifted mentors. It requires all of us, mentors, mentees, and institutions to think deliberately about the culture we are creating and the people who will inherit it. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Stat Speaking with JMP. If you enjoyed this conversation as much as I did, then please follow, subscribe, and share it with a friend. Keep exploring the stories behind the data, and we'll see you next month.