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UP TO THE MINUTE is a production of Colorado Radio for Justice (CRJ). It's a weekly snapshot of what’s happening, and what’s on the horizon, in the criminal-legal system in Colorado and beyond, hosted by CRJ's team of system-impacted podcast hosts. CRJ's featured guests / contributors on the show are staff from the Colorado Criminal Justice Reform Coalition (CCJRC). www.radioforjustice.org
[00:00:00] Introduction
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Joybelle Phelan: Welcome to Up to the Minute on Colorado Radio for Justice. I'm your host today, Joybelle Phelan.
I'm joined by Kyle Giddings from the Colorado Criminal Justice Reform Coalition, and Colorado is facing a major budget shortfall right now, more than a billion dollars, and lawmakers are making tough decisions about where that money goes. At the same time, the state is running out of space in its prison system.
[00:01:00] Budget writers have moved forward with a plan to reopen a private prison to handle projected growth, even as cuts are being made to things like healthcare and other essential services. So we're at a real crossroads. Do we expand the system to make room for more people or do we start managing it differently?
There's also a bill this session, SB 26-36, focused on using tools like parole earned time and release processes to better manage the prison population that we already have today. We're gonna dig into what's actually happening, what choices are being made, and what those choices mean for people across Colorado.
Mm-hmm. Thank you Kyle.
Kyle Giddings: Always good to be here with you.
Joybelle Phelan: Good to have you here. So let's start
What's Driving the Prison Population Crisis
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Joybelle Phelan: with what's happening right now in Colorado that has put prison capacity and budget front and center.
Kyle Giddings: every conversation in every room right now around the budget starts with [00:02:00] the question, what the heck is going on in DOCwhy are we spending tens of millions more on prison capacity, healthcare, uh, staffing costs, all this while crime is going down, um, statistically across the board, violent crime, low level crime, all crime going down, and yet, uh, our prison population is growing. We are continuously running into the issue of the fact that discretionary parole is down 12%, uh, year-over-year right now.
lots more people going back for technical parole revocations, as well as just, um, the bottlenecks within the Department of Corrections.there's nearly 5,000 people. past their parole eligibility date inside DOC. Now, not all those people are like eligible to go home, ready to go home right now, but a good chunk of them are ready to go home now.
But they don't have access to treatment. They don't have access to classes. They are struggling to, um, find the resources they need, uh, to be able to, uh, do what [00:03:00] is required of them by parole to go home.
It's just wild stuff. So that's what's going on right now. And, uh, everyone's really concerned, uh, because we are cutting healthcare to kids. We are cutting healthcare to adults. Uh, K–12 is taking a hit. Everyone's taking a hit, but DOC's coming out with 90 million more dollars. And so it leaves the question: what the heck is going on in DOC and what are we gonna do about it?
Joybelle Phelan: would it be fair to say that part of what has brought us here is it's a combination of people are not being released on parole?
Kyle Giddings: Mm-hmm.
Joybelle Phelan: They are not getting treatment or classes. Yep. So like this didn't happen in one year?
Kyle Giddings: No.
Joybelle Phelan: I would say the last four, five years, um. 2023 is when we started re really ringing the bell, um, about, Hey, we're running outta beds. Uh, the prison population is growing not because of crime increases, it's just growing because all these people stuck in the system and we need to do something about it.
Kyle Giddings: So we were ringing the bell in 23 talking about the [00:04:00] crisis related to staffing. And uh, that's when Colorado WINS. The union that represents, uh, DOC workers joined us in a report saying. We are in crisis, like we don't have enough staff to cover the shifts that already exist. The continuous growth of the population is not only putting our lives at risk, it's putting the inmates lives at risk and their quality of life.
At risk. so we've been ringing the bell for a few years and trying to run bills that Governor Polis has just kind of stood in the way of and stopped from either being introduced or getting a vote on the floor or any of that. But this year, SB 36 is moving through pretty well. Uh, it had its first hearing yesterday where it passed out of committee, um, and is off to Senate Appropriations, which should be a pretty quick movement
from
Kyle Giddings: there.
Movement from there, once the budget is completed,
Joybelle Phelan: So before we start talking about the bill
we're also hearing that the state could run out of prison space within the next year.
Kyle Giddings: Mm-hmm.
How Real Is the Bed Crisis?
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Joybelle Phelan: How real is that?
Kyle Giddings: It's real. Like there's no denying the fact that there is a bed crisis. Like we're not out here saying. There isn't a [00:05:00] crisis with, uh, how many beds they have.
We're saying there's a crisis of what you're doing with the beds you have. there's a lot, a lot of low-level offenses that are just stuck in purgatory. and then also, um, like creating equity in the sense of like helping some of the.
JCAP kids get out, uh, faster. Uh, they're not kids anymore, guys. Um, and you know, there's 11 people in the JCAP system right now just waiting for a signature. But they're sitting there, there's special needs parole folks. There's, uh, 66 people that have been already approved for special needs parole, but just have nowhere to go.
Mm-hmm. And so why are we building capacity, um, to just incarcerate more people? Instead of building capacity outside of the structural system of DOC to place some high-level medical folks, you know, there's three people in DOC right now that cost the state $2.8 million a year in just medical care.
Joybelle Phelan: Wow.
Kyle Giddings: There's all these buckets of folks that we need to help, um, get through the process and create avenues for them to get out.
Joybelle Phelan: So as things [00:06:00] sit right now,
Kyle Giddings: mm-hmm.
Joybelle Phelan: What happens when we run out of beds?
Kyle Giddings: I think it depends who you ask. Um, you know, the Department of Corrections says if we run outta beds, then we have to open, uh, start double bunking.
they said they'll stop admitting people into the system and keep them in jail backlog at the county jails. Um, so that's what DOC is saying. They're also like, that's why we wanna buy a prison or open a new prison or contract with the private prison to open more bed capacity.
And we're sitting here, it's like it, we don't have to live this life like this is not how things have to be. Like we don't need to be in a constant state of crisis within the Department of Corrections. We can do simple things that change the trajectory of the population to take the pressure off to like help maintain.
Um, quality of life for not only the staff, but all those inside
it's time for us to really deal with those structural issues within DOC to help alleviate the bed crisis
The Private Prison Debate
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Joybelle Phelan: The [00:07:00] governor's office put forward a suggestion
Of we need to build a new prison, the JBC or someone else in that department. said. No, we're not gonna do that. But they put like a dollar in the budget to hold. So walk us through that
Kyle Giddings: process. Yeah, it's complicated. It's actually really complicated. Budget maneuvering. Governor Polis showed up on March 18th saying, uh, they wanted $200 million to buy the closed Huerfano facility in Walsenburg, Colorado.
and that they may need to buy two prisons based on the current trajectory of the population. it's been closed for over 10 years. Mm-hmm. Um, It wasn't in good shape when it closed and it continues to not be in very good shape.
and recently, um, the city of Walsenburg has been struggling with a lot of their water infrastructure. Just the city. It's. Themselves. There's about 3,000 folks that live in Walsenburg, this prison between staff. And if the facility was fully, um, every bed was taken, there'd be nearly another [00:08:00] thousand people.
Mm-hmm. On top of the city. Mm-hmm. But the same week that, uh, the governor requested $200 million to buy this prison or, uh, start the process to lease it. Um, their water system failed and they had, uh, boil notice. They had to boil their water before they could drink it. They had a drive to a local state park to take showers.
And so, you know, it's complicated. The mayor of Walsenburg is like. You know, the closing of this prison is a failed promise to us. Now, I am pretty opposed to using, uh, private prisons or even state prisons to, uh, increase economic drive and mobility of a community.
I don't think that's the right place to do that. I think there's a lot of other ways to get people good jobs besides prisons. Um. But at the same time, they, the city was completely unaware that this conversation was even happening at the highest levels of DOC, of, oh, uh, let's reopen the private prison, or let's buy the private prison.
They had no idea this conversation was happening until it broke in the news and reporters started [00:09:00] asking them.
So the fact that Walsenburg had no idea this was coming and then just bloop-dropped it, it just tells you how great this process is going. Um, but it was estimated to need $60 million in repairs.
Um, they, they, the governor keeps talking about how like, oh, we need all these repairs to get it up to a level 3 facility. So like replacing the doors and the toilets. Walsenburg's only ever been open at a level 3 facility, so it's already a level 3 facility, which means they need to replace all these things because this, the whole building is probably failing, but we can't get any information.
We did a CORA requestfor all the due diligence paperwork that they did when they were doing the research. on buying it or leasing it and, uh, just got some really silly emails back and they're like, no real information. And so JBC said, uh, no thank you. You cannot buy a prison. Um, not in this budget crisis, not in everything that is going on.
And no one on JBC wants to commit to a whole new prison. Just knowing how broken the Department [00:10:00] of Corrections is and the infrastructure around it.
Staffing Shortages
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Joybelle Phelan: you started to talk about it earlier. Let's talk about staffing the union, right?
So if we're expanding capacity mm-hmm. Whether it's Huerfano or someplace, whatever, wherever it is. Yeah. Um, so in the, in facilities right now still mm-hmm. Staffing shortages being what they are. Mm-hmm. If we somehow expand bed capacity. Where does that staff come from?
Kyle Giddings: last time when it was Huerfano. Now they pulled a lot of people from Walsenburg to come work at that facility, but then they're also gonna have to pull people.
From other prisons. like, um, I know when Kit Carson was open, they moved people in from Nebraska. Um, there were people from Puerto Rico who were like living in a prison down in uh, Cañon City working as guards. It was just, they were living in the prison 'cause they couldn't get housing in Cañon City hired these guards who didn't speak English, uh, who like had no experience being a prison guard inside of an American prison. Living in the prisons. [00:11:00] It was, it was wild. Um,
Joybelle Phelan: yeah, I remember when that story was on the news. I was like, what is
Kyle Giddings: happening right now? Yeah. I don't think they knew either.
Um, but no one knows where this staff, like Andre Stancil, the head of DOC said it best. DOC will never return to staffing levels pre-2020 in the pandemic. Mm-hmm. They'll never return to that. And their response to that is like, well everyone just work more instead of figuring out like, how do we deal with this issue?
Legislative Response & The Working Group
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Kyle Giddings: that's what we would love to figure out. everyone points to everybody else. That's their problem. That's their problem. That's their wheelhouse. Their wheelhouse. And so we actually proposed a working group, um, comprised of not only community stakeholders, a formerly incarcerated person, but also DOC and uh, members from Colorado WINS, the staff, like a day-to-day staff. Not like some executive level,
Joybelle Phelan: but like line staff.
Kyle Giddings: I want line staff. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I want someone who's working case management before they jump onto this meeting.
and so it looks like we're gonna get a working group too.
[00:12:00] Um, that's not just a, uh, like around for a few months, makes a report, disappears into the wind mm-hmm. But is around and can help for over the next couple years. Figure out how to deal with these structural issues inside of the Department of Corrections, um, because the next governor, whoever it is, is gonna have a lot to deal with,
and lean into the people who've been doing this work, like CCJRC for a long time to help them figure out how to get out of it.
Joybelle Phelan:
The Budget Standoff
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Joybelle Phelan: If we're in a budget crisis and at the same time we're looking at spending literally tens of millions of dollars right on prison capacity. I'm curious how the legislature are weighing those priorities.
Kyle Giddings: Yeah.
So, the conversation just changed dramatically in that building where, like I said, every meeting about the budget starts with what the heck is going on in DOC. So, each party has a caucus meeting when the budget is released. They talk about priorities, what the budget does, the joint budget committee members that belong to that party do a whole [00:13:00] presentation.
And in the House side, the first 45 minutes of this three-hour meeting was only talking about DOC.
And the JBC members being like, we hear you, we don't disagree with you. Um, but we have to lean into making sure the counties aren't suffering endlessly because they get paid.
$77 a day to hold someone inside the county jail. It costs an average of like $130 a day to hold that person. So they're losing money.
they're trying to weigh that and making sure quality of life for people inside of DOC doesn't dramatically change.
one thing that also was in the DOC budget this year was an increase to the, um, private prison, uh, per diem. Mm-hmm. So, uh, moving it from, and we're at 63 or $68, I can't remember, to 77, and then eventually 80 after next year per day per inmate.
Mm-hmm.
Kyle Giddings: And, um, that's a nearly 20% raise.
About 18.6%.
Okay.
Kyle Giddings: Um. [00:14:00] So we have been talking about like, that makes no sense. Like they've only ever come in for like two to 3% to show up for asking for originally a 20% increase.
: Mm-hmm.
Kyle Giddings: That is like, And it doesn't increase access to treatment. Doesn't increase access to resources or quality of life for the people inside.
Or programs. Or programs. It is just purely profit.
Mm-hmm.
Kyle Giddings: it is also in a year where we have no money, We're giving a private prison corporation who's also associating themselves and like in, and uh, also a partner in the ICE detention centers throughout this country that are turning into just little concentration camps.
Like what are we doing? And so some people heard us talking about them and they went for that money. And so they went and passed a budget amendment to take $6 million out of the $11 million that was there, uh, to return healthcare to children from a program that was being, uh, capped and turned off.
Uh, Cover All Coloradans, which helps families of mixed status, uh, legal status. to [00:15:00] gain access to healthcare and reproductive care. Great program, does wonderful work and was capped and was being canceled. And so they managed to do a budget amendment that took $6 million to give these people healthcare.
Oh, wow. Amazing work. Mm-hmm. there's also a $5.9 million caseload so they don't immediately blow a hole in the budget.
So people are like, no more — we're gonna raid the DOC budget and take this money and put it where it belongs, which is in the hands of everyday Coloradans who are gonna suffer the most.
Joybelle Phelan: So in a previous, up to the minute, we talked about how when the JBC said no, like the funding of the more, the 900 some odd beds, that there'd been some that back and forth of Yes, no.
Yes, no.
: Yeah.
Joybelle Phelan: we had a conversation that that was being used as a leverage point and that DOC, the intent of the back and forth with that money was. Figure out a plan. Mm-hmm. And that DOC was operating in good faith, trying to put together a plan.
DOC's Plan & The Path Forward
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Joybelle Phelan: Where are we with that?
Kyle Giddings: Where's the [00:16:00] plan? So,
Joybelle Phelan: I mean, is it still, I it's gonna take a while to create hundred percent. Is there, are there steps in building a something?
Kyle Giddings: Yeah. Yesterday at the Senate Judicial Committee was like the biggest formation of that plan. There's one bill, which is a second look bill that passed earlier this session that's sitting in appropriations that they're trying to figure out how to find some money for.
: Mm-hmm.
Kyle Giddings: Um, but there was a slate of other bills that came out of some judiciary yesterday. one was Senate Bill 36, the prison population management measures. There was a rewrite of, uh, the JCAP bill, uh, law to help bypass the governor.
to get these folks out. That's
That's what he wanted. And, uh, Dylan Roberts, who killed it last year, voted for this year. Okay. So I don't know what they changed, but they changed it. And then there's the uh, DOC'ss requested to earn time stuff, which is a few days here and there, which is fantastic, but
Joybelle Phelan: it all adds up,
it
Kyle Giddings: all adds up, and then includes the working group.
Joybelle Phelan: Okay.
Kyle Giddings: And so the plan's coming together, but the big structural plan is connected to that working group.
Joybelle Phelan: [00:17:00] Right.
Kyle Giddings: And we've had commitment from the governor to sign the bill, and so we expect to get rolling on that pretty quickly after session's over.
Joybelle Phelan:
It Takes a Village
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Joybelle Phelan: I think the best way to describe it is it takes a village.
: Mm-hmm.
Joybelle Phelan: The DOC, like one entity by itself is not gonna solve everything. No. Like to, to your point around the working group, we need a group of people.
We need a group of minds. We need people that are in it. there are so many folks that would love to have a ton of input here's my experience. Here's what worked.re's what didn't,
They're not gonna get out all by themselves. It's gonna take a village.
we talked about what is driving the increase is not.
Crime?
Kyle Giddings: Nope.
Joybelle Phelan: less people are being released, more people are sitting in county jails waiting to come in. More people are going back on parole revocations. It's not that crime is up in your local community.
Understanding SB 26-36 (PPMM)
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Joybelle Phelan: So there's a bill this session. Yep. Focused on managing the prison population using tools that already exist. That's the SB 26-36, that we talked about. What is this bill trying to do and how is this [00:18:00] bill different from the previous prison population?
Kyle Giddings: Yeah. Yes, yes, yes, yes. So the, uh, 2018 bill, uh, the prison population management measures passed unanimously, and we thought it had the teeth and the buckets and the mechanisms to help folks get out if they fall below 3% for 30 days.
Eh, it doesn't. Um, and it had areas where the governor was able to manipulate and kind of get around the system by keeping. People in jail backlog. 'cause they don't count against the vac vacancy rates. So it allowed the bill to never go into effect. Mm-hmm. Um, but even when it did go into effect of the 235 people that were marked as qualifying to be able to re-released under PPMM, the parole board — it only released 12, so we still have a parole board problem. So the new PPMM increases that vacancy level from 3% to 4% because from what we saw across the nation is most prisons need about 2.5% of flexibility to move [00:19:00] people around.
What if a water main breakshere's a fire,tta
Joybelle Phelan: move, something happens.
Kyle Giddings: 2.5% of emergency bed movements. Okay. Kind of stuff. And so we bump that number up to 4%.
Joybelle Phelan: So there's more wiggle room,
Kyle Giddings: more wiggle room, and then also they have to get to 5% for at least 30 days for the mechanisms to stop.
Joybelle Phelan: Okay.
Kyle Giddings: Um, so we feel like 5% is like a reasonable number, like 5% is still a lot of people in prison. Um, but gives you enough runway to figure some stuff out. Okay. Um, and so there's that. We made sure the jail backlog was included and then we added a bunch more buckets of people, um, uh, including, uh. People who have really good institutional like behavior who are in level 1 or 2 facilities.
Like some of these facilities don't even have a fence. So we should trust these people to be able, probably be able to go home if they've proven themselves throughout the rest of their programming. And then also there's just like a lot [00:20:00] of different mechanisms that like. Require people to actually take accountability for how these mechanisms are implemented.
Because right now it's just like, well, we tell a bunch of people and then hopefully stuff happens. Um, we've changed that so the head of DOC is how the, uh, PPMM is being implemented. If it's triggered. Uh, we also put it in place so that the um. Department of Corrections has a lot more responsibilities.
So if none of these other mechanisms that we're putting in place work and the parole board is still denying a lot of people, there's a new mechanism that, uh, any people within 90 days of their mandatory release dates, the DOC gets to make their own list and be like, we've lived with these people, we've seen how these people work, and we think they're ready to go home.
They make their own list and start letting those folks out.
Joybelle Phelan: so if you're someone in the community that is concerned about public safety, so is what [00:21:00] you're saying these people mm-hmm. However, however many there might be.
Kyle Giddings: Mm-hmm.
Joybelle Phelan: They do not go in front of the parole board.
DOC can make the decision of, hey, you've done whatever, whatever the criteria is. Mm-hmm. Out the door.
Kyle Giddings: So if they have victim notification, they would still get notified.
Joybelle Phelan: Okay.
Kyle Giddings: Um, yeah, they, they, if they were within 90 days of their mandatory release date, DOC can pull their list and just give them 90 days of earned time.
Joybelle Phelan: so they'd be leaving?
Kyle Giddings: Yeah, they'd be leaving anyway. Okay. Um, it's not, uh, this is not the discretionary parole folks. Okay. This is the people headed out anyway in 90 days. And so it allows them to give 'em 90 days of earn time and send them on out. Um, and so that is like the last bucket.
It's just like, you know, DOC facilities, you know who's in your facility that's likely ready to return to community. You're gonna make that choice.
Joybelle Phelan: are we trying to manage the system differently or just make room for more people?
Kyle Giddings: Uh, we're trying to take the pressure off.
Joybelle Phelan:
Kyle Giddings: DOC is a pressure cooker right [00:22:00] now. The population's growing.
I call it, uh, Riot Soup is cooking right now. Mm-hmm. Um, and so. Work. The PPMM was never designed to like let out a ton of people or anything like that. It was designed to help take the pressure off, bring us up to a safer level to the, now this working group can come in and figure out the structural issues that are just keeping people clogged in to begin with.
Mm-hmm. So our hope is PPMM, the JCAP rewrite, the second look bill, uh, the earned time from DOC stuff, um, can all work together to keep the pressure releasing properly on the, uh, DOC, on the pressure cooker, that is DOC. So we have time to go in and deal with the structural issues before a new prison needs to happen or a riot happens or anything like that.
The Human Cost
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Kyle Giddings: I think sometimes when people are talking about the prison population, they, it's sometimes really easy to forget that we're talking about people that we love and care about.
Joybelle Phelan: Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Joybelle Phelan: [00:23:00] That at some point will be our neighbors.
: Yep.
Joybelle Phelan: And so I'm wanting, I'm wanting people who are listening today. To remember if they don't have a loved one inside.
: Mm-hmm.
Joybelle Phelan: I want them to remember that we're actually talking about people who live and work in this pressure cooker.
: Yeah.
Joybelle Phelan: And it's not like as a volunteer who goes in, right?
Mm-hmm. Like we're seeing the impact. You hear from people, you know, CCJRC hears from people inside, and so I'm wanting to make sure we remember we are talking about human beings.
Kyle Giddings: Yes.
Joybelle Phelan: Yeah, who live and work there.
Kyle Giddings: Mm-hmm.
Joybelle Phelan: When we're in this pressure cooker component, what is this doing to the people who are living and working in that space?
Kyle Giddings: You know, 95% of people inside of DOC will come home one day. Yep. 95%. Um, and the situation that they're in, um, the letters we get and the phone calls we get and family members reaching out is, it is a lot of despair. [00:24:00] Um, it's a lot of people being like, I don't know. How I will ever qualify for discretionary parole.
I have a really long sentence, but I can't get treatment. I can't get access to the classes I'm required to take to be able to get out. Family members are just, are scared to push back against DOC too and for their family member not to be retaliated against. Yep. Like I think about the youth out in the YOS system who were literally being starved and made.
I know they passed lawsd have been doing some work to help with that situation. Um, but many of the family members of the YOS, uh, youth, so the YOS facility is the youth offender system. Mm-hmm. Uh, are scared to publicly say anything because they think their kids are gonna be retaliated against.
Mm-hmm. And that all feeds into that pressure cooker. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, and when I talk with the guards and the case managers and the parole officers inside of DOC. They're just exhausted. They, their mental health has [00:25:00] completely collapsed in some cases. And there was some, uh, was meeting with a bunch of, uh, Colorado WINS, DOC workers last year, and they talked about, uh, one of their coworkers who committed suicide and, uh, they talked about their, uh, coworkers.
Uh, there was one or two that passed away. From crashing their car. 'cause they just worked a double double.
: Yeah.
Kyle Giddings: And didn't stay awake. They're tired. Yeah, they're tired.
: Yeah.
Kyle Giddings: And it's, it's a deadly system that's being put together. And it's important that we work diligently to equip the people who can do something to change it.
And then if they don't want to be equipped with that, that we work together to make the laws change what they're able or not able to do.
What to Watch & How to Get Involved
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Joybelle Phelan: what should. The general taxpayer voter person interested, be paying attention to on what sort of timeframe?
Kyle Giddings: Yeah, for sure. So once the budget is done, after this week, things are gonna hit hyper speed. 'cause we're less than 30 days before session's over.
And so we have to get all [00:26:00] these bills that went through Senate judiciary yesterday through the Senate and over to the house and through their committees and back through again. Mm-hmm. And so it is more important than ever that we work, uh, tirelessly and endlessly. To reach out to our elected officials to let them know that this is a problem that we want solved, these are the bills we want to have solved.
So if you go to ccjrc.org/get-involved, our newsletter as well as all the different events we have going on. We're doing a lot of packing the committee rooms to make sure, uh, legislators see that there's a lot of community behind these bills that want them passed. Now we're not asking even people to testify, we're just asking 'em to come sit in a room and wear a button and look cool.
Um, and yeah. And so we're, we're working endlessly to get these bills across the finish line, and so. Wherever they can send an email. We, we send a lot of action alerts these days asking people to reach out to legislators. So make sure they, you sign up at [00:27:00] ccjrc.org/get-involved updates on how you can fighting the good fight.
Joybelle Phelan: Alright, well thank you so much for your time today folks. I'm your host, Joybelle Phelan. I've been chatting with Kyle Giddings from the Colorado Criminal Justice Reform Coalition and we appreciate you listening to Up to the Minute on Colorado Radio for Justice.