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Interviews with entrepreneurs and business leaders who’ve “made it” in Thailand. Real stories of ambition, setbacks, and strategic wins on the path to success. Built for founders and operators who want to win in Thailand.
Guests from the US, UK, Australia, and Thailand. Honest journeys and cross-cultural lessons. Inspiration for anyone building in the Thai market.
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Hosted by Scott Pressimone, a US expat based in Thailand for 13+ years and owner of Fractiond, a Thailand-based strategy consultancy.
#ThailandBusiness #ExpatSuccess #ThaiExpat
I think the DTV gonna
go through a reshuffle.
They're going to like tweak it, tighten
it, and do all kinds of things too.
Take your time, get into a
visa that'll allow you to be
here for a minimum of a year.
A million things that you think you
know cold coming in are just wrong.
Absolutely.
You don't know what you don't know,
especially when it comes to the issue
of just how in demand you're gonna be.
Yes.
Because you think you're
gonna be a lot more in demand
Yes.
Than you probably are when that
employer is looking at you.
It's not just your sal worried
about paying, it's also you
gotta have a work permit.
There's all kinds of hidden sunk costs
that go in from the employer side that
I think when you're new especially
and you're young, that you don't
really see and it's just not something
that factors into people's thinking.
So today I am sitting down with Benjamin
Hart, the American lawyer and managing
director of Integrity Legal, who of
course, uh, is well known on YouTube.
He arrived here well before
me, in fact, in 2008.
Is that right, Ben?
Yeah.
I got here March of 2008 and
went, I moved to Korea in
August of oh seven, but I got to
Thailand in March of oh eight,
so quite a few years.
Another thing that, it's really
interesting that I reason I really
wanted to have you on, uh, Ben, was
you became a naturalized citizen.
Mm-hmm.
Which is a big deal.
So I, I really want to talk
a little bit about that.
Let's see.
There were a few other topics
we're gonna discuss today.
Things like the difference between
a nomad and an expat, um, because
we both spend a lot of years here
and you kind of see that some people
coming in may be a little naive and
not really understanding the Treaty
of Amity because for CI US citizens,
I think this is something a lot of
people might misunderstand and, and
you've dug a lot deeper into that.
And then some leading indicators and
changes that we're seeing in Thailand.
Mm-hmm.
Which, again, I'm not gonna expose
right now, but is very interesting
of your, your theory there.
And then how hard it's been as an
expat, because I think a lot of us
really struggled for a lot of years.
Mm-hmm.
And I don't know, I, I wanna know
whether or not you think it's
getting easier or harder, uh,
over time for expats that are
actually coming over here, starting
businesses here and whatnot.
So,
yeah.
So actually for me coming in,
uh, I, I tell people this a lot.
My first two years was
that were not that hard.
Mm-hmm.
Because I started doing
purely US immigration work.
In fact, my original work
permit was handwritten.
Mm-hmm.
And so that I only was doing
stuff that was purely within the
bailiwick of American law because
as you know, you know, legal pre
all professional services are
highly restricted by the Thais.
So at the time.
That was how it was set up.
But yeah, for the first two years
I was here was like the tail end
of the Bush presidency in the
beginning of the Obama presidency.
Mm. And Iraq and Afghanistan
were going hardcore.
Mm. And all the guys that were
contractors up there that just had
oodles money that were meeting the
loves of their lives down here in
Thailand and wanted to get 'em back
to like Iowa, where you know, they
can get the hottest girl they've
ever met back to Iowa, you know, and
there's some guy that's working as
a gas station attendant in cobble.
Basically, it was like, yeah, I,
that first two years was not hard.
My hardest time was starting in
2010 with the red shirt riots.
And then really, really, uh, the
worst I ever remember it was when the
currency went upside down in, in 11,
right.
When, when the, when the baht
went real strong and, and like,
yeah, that was a hard time.
And that was when I started looking
at maybe doing some other stuff.
That was when I first
found the Amity Treaty.
But going back to naturalization,
yeah, I, I, you know, it's sort
of a, it was all sort of one fluid
motion, but it took me 11 years
and then, yeah, I was NAS in.
Uh, my name was in the Royal
Gazette in December of 17.
So you just got pr, like
how long have you had it?
Uh, a few months.
Really?
So how long have you been here?
Uh, 13 year.
Well, since 2012.
Okay.
All right.
Yeah.
At the time I was actually gonna
go through the PR line and do it
all like that, and they actually
kicked me over to citizenship.
They were like, for you, this
is gonna end up at the time.
Because I went through in, I would've
started that in January of 16.
And at the time they told me they were
like, it, it was actually because.
Ironically and say whatever you
want about military governments.
At the time they were doing good
guys in, bad guys out, and they
were expediting and streamlining.
If you could prove that you'd been here
and been paying taxes and everything
was hunky dory, they were pretty
happy to see you coming through.
And they were like, look, you can
go through a lot more RGA morale and
go through the Red Book line, or you
can just try for the whole thing.
Now the problem with it was it
wasn't a half step, so you just go
from one to the other instantly.
But once you have it, yeah, it's great.
Now that said, they do, um, you go
through the process, you come out.
I very much think more like a
Thai now than I ever, I'm not ever
gonna say I don't think like an
American, I'm still from America.
I love America.
It's great, but I think like
a Thai in many, many ways.
And naturalization did a
lot to make that happen.
That's interesting.
Now, was the process, it, it sounds
like you said it was a time when
they were expediting it, but was it
still a pretty difficult process?
Oh
God, it was.
Yeah.
Yeah,
it was really hard.
Well, c well, there's 11
years where all I was doing.
Mm. In fact, I knew I wanted
to go for citizenship.
So a mentor of mine, shout out
to a guy named Ron Crystal's.
Been out here Lon.
He, uh, was like a
mentor of mine out here.
He's, uh, came out here in Vietnam.
He was a, he was a lawyer for the Air
Force, and then, you know, decades
went by and he himself naturalized.
So I had somebody I could
bounce stuff off of.
But he told me, like my third year
in, he was like, if you're really
serious about being here, you need
a plan to become Thai from this mo
like you need to, and I had binders
and stuff when I was going through
processing, like you, you know,
I would pull 'em all out, look at
everything over and over and over again.
I started doing that
even up to eligibility.
I mean.
I was actually ineligible the first
time I went to apply 'cause they had
some kind of problem with my, one of
my tax returns from three years prior.
So I had to, I had to
kick it back, wait.
'cause I filed the first time.
I tried to file the first time and I
think, I wanna say like April of 15.
And they were like now, and so the
first business day of 16, I had filed
a new return and I was able to get
back in there and they were like, okay.
They accepted it.
And put me through.
So, yeah, I mean if, yeah, actually if
you wanna look at it, it really took me
about three years to get it done by the
time you look, if you look at just the
processing, but 11 up to that point.
So, yeah, it, it's not easy.
They do not make it easy.
So it, you know, they don't like, it's
not that they don't want people, but
it, they want you, I think, to think
more like a tie when you come out of it.
And honestly, because I use English
so much and things, my, my language
could have been a little bit stronger.
Frankly.
It slipped a lot from when I had to be
tested to go through all of that stuff.
But yeah, I'm, yeah, it's, it's good.
I'm hunky dory now.
It's all fine now.
Once, once you get it, it's like
you, 2018, I was walking on air.
I didn't care about anything.
It's all good.
Yeah, I, one way I've described
it, I'm curious if you agree, but
it's, it's simple but not easy.
Right.
Like once I started to realize how.
How they think of it when,
now this is for pr, right?
Right.
Just to be clear.
Yeah.
No, that, but, but
I've processed PR too.
When you think, what
are they looking for?
Right.
And you start to realize, as you
said, you're gathering documentation
and you're saying, okay, they, you
know, tax returns are important,
what you've contributed is important.
Um, you know, having all this
stuff prepared is very important.
Then it's kind of like a matter
of, it's really hard to gather
that information sometimes if
you're not preparing ahead of time.
And so, yeah.
So I like, once I understood the,
the, the view that they're looking
at it in and what they want to see.
Mm-hmm.
And to me it was a relatively simple
process and a lot of people complain
about how difficult it is, but I get it.
Right.
Mm-hmm.
I, I, I empathize as long as you
can see from that perspective,
but you gotta start early, right?
Well, and, uh, when you understand
that the problems they're going
to give you are problems that
they will give you in retrospect.
So what I mean to say is, is I would
say the tie bureaucracy does this a lot.
They like to, they like
to use time as a factor.
So, for example, if they're
gonna jam you up on something,
they'll jam you up on things.
I mean, we can go a, a little bit,
this, this actually goes into some
of the new visas they've created.
Mm. So like the LTR, the DTV.
Yeah.
Like, people look at that
and they're like, oh wow.
You know, I can get instantaneously,
I can get locked in for some serious
time in Thailand, blah, blah, blah.
But none of it's work authorized
in the same way that it used to be.
And they're not visas created under the
old act the way that they used to be.
So the Thai, on the one hand, it looks
like they're really given something.
Mm. But first of all, when you re
realize that all of those visas can
be rescinded at any given moment.
Drop of a hat, no problem.
But also that you're not tabulating
time toward PR or citizenship.
Right?
Then you see that, oh, they've, you
know, by the time you realize that
three years, four years into a DTV, you
go, oh, well, well, you know, that's
how they kind of like to do things.
So I'll, I'll give you one example.
I was supposed to take ano, I was
supposed to take a tax rebate in
15 and I almost did it, and I later
realized that the way I would've done it
would've restructured my tax return and.
We didn't end up doing it because
if I would've done that, I would've
fallen under some arbitrary threshold.
Just because you're paranoid,
that doesn't mean they're
not all out to get you.
Maybe they were trying to get,
I don't think that was what was
happening, but those are the kind
of things you have to worry about.
Like prospectively with citizenship, you
have to sit around and like, you almost
have to game out how this is gonna look.
By the time you get into where
you're being determined if you're
eligible for citizenship or pr, and.
You have to like build
it backwards from there.
Right.
Is I guess the best way to put it.
Well, and it goes back to what
you said you got from the mentor,
which is a, you know, are you,
are you serious about this?
Because if you're serious about it, you
work backwards from that, don't you?
Right.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, and the other thing is, look, the
ties, I read this great book one time
about Tiger Woods, who's, who's mom's
tie that the most amazing thing about
Tiger Woods is he did not think from
the tee box to the hole, he thought
from the hole back to the tee box.
He like, he sort of thinks backwards.
Well, in, in retrospect, I realize he
just thinks like a tie in many ways.
Like that's, and the
bureaucracy here does that too.
They're like, well, if we're gonna
thwart you, we'd rather not thwart you
right at the desk and give it, and give
sort of an opportunity for conflict.
Oh, no, no, no, no.
It'll be something from four years prior
that there's nothing you can do about
it now, and you're just stuck with it.
That's, that's how they like.
So, yeah, you're, you are aware that
you have to kind of be like, I view
it as the time I spent actually going
through the adjudication of nationality.
It was like a half flex muscle.
Mm.
And then the minute you're done,
it's just like you can relax.
Yeah.
You know,
I, I have to share a couple recent
circumstances that I was in that
really reinforce what you just
said there, which was number one
for PR I, there was this process
where you're, you're floating,
you're basically your application
with the officials early, right?
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
And, and so they're, that's when
they pick out a lot of it, the vets.
Yeah.
Right.
And that vetting process, by time,
you're then getting into, oh, now
we've accepted your application.
Or fast forward a little bit where
they're actually interviewing you.
From my understanding, they
really want you to succeed at that
point, but they're stopping a lot
of people at the early stages.
Um,
part of that, part of that is
because the minute a fee is paid
Yeah.
There's now due process.
So if they deny you have a, you have
a, you have standing to ask why.
Okay.
You know, and, and they don't really
like, this has just been, I, I'd
never heard this officially said,
this is just my observation of how
they operate, that once you've filed,
they don't want you to not, they
don't want you to not really get it.
Mm-hmm.
Because if you don't.
Then you're gonna file an
appeal and there's gonna be
all kinds, you know, they're
bureaucrats at the end of the day.
They want, they want it to
just be put on a conveyor
belt and just sort of move.
And it, that's why they do all
that like, heavy, heavy vetting.
Right.
Uh, well, so the simple example
though, that I experienced was getting
a renewal from my driver's license.
This was just a couple of weeks ago.
Yeah.
But this was a situation where I had
just gotten PR and I was supposed
to get, uh, you know, be in the
tabien baan and have that 'cause we
have a house or my wife has a house.
Yeah,
yeah.
And so you get into the
book, we're stuck in that.
Right.
And, and we're stuck at that stage.
But then I'm gonna, oh, now I
have to renew my driver's license.
I go there and they say,
oh, you have a red book.
Great.
You have residents.
Perfect.
Now we need the tabien baan.
I'm like, oh, my district office
hasn't given that to me yet.
I have these other steps I
have to go through for that.
So they were kind of like,
sorry, uh, but no thanks.
And I'm thinking it's expiring.
What am I supposed to do?
Yeah.
I eventually got through it all, but my
point is it's all had to do with that
vetting stage, but as soon as I got what
was needed, man, that process was easy.
Yeah.
It just is like, it didn't
used to be that easy.
I mean, years ago, I'm sure getting
a license, I dunno if it was as
efficient, but now it's like, it
actually is like a, a mechanical process
where it's like, go to this station.
Go to that station.
Mm. It's quick, but man, they,
they stopped me at that first step.
Right?
The,
oh, I don't know.
I was just talking to my wife
yesterday who actually works in
our firm and she said that she
won't even do her own license now.
It's just gotten so
crazy.
Yeah, there's, there's a
lot, there is a lot to that.
They want all the tumblers in
the lock and then they just
want it all to flow smooth.
What with pr, what they're
really worried about is that
you get into the system.
And then somewhere along the lines,
there's a genuine reason for denial
and then it creates a bunch of conflict
and you're sitting around appealing
and they, they just don't wanna go
through that, that, so they pre-vet,
that's, I think that's why they do that.
I, I'll tell you, I would, the
only part of citizenship that
actually made me kind of mad was
after I'd been through everything.
And I had my certificate of nationality,
but I went down to the local CAT office,
the district office to get my ID card.
Mm. And they were like, oh, well
we need to review everything.
You need to come back in a week.
I'm like, you need to review everything.
What are you talking about?
I mean, I've been completely review.
You know, I, it was one,
it was the only point.
Everything else, 'cause you go through
special branch, then you go over to the
interior ministry, then it goes to the
palace, then it goes back to the Royal
Gazette at somewhere along the way, the
Prime Minister has to countersign that.
For it goes in the Royal Gazette
and then you come out and your
name has been in the Royal Gazette,
and then you got some bureaucrats.
It's like, well we gotta review it.
I'm like, what are you reviewing?
You know?
But I get it.
They have their mandate.
But I came back like two days later
and they gave me my id, but it was
very anticlimactic getting my id.
'cause they were all
very not happy with me.
'cause I've been unhappy about not
getting my ID just on the spot.
But the, that was the only
part I got particularly angry.
The rest of it was just
patience and you go through it.
But the um.
They were doing their job.
But I gotta be honest with you, that
seems a little nonsensical after
you've been through all of that.
Yeah.
But at least once it's all done.
It sounds like you did at least
have probably a year of celebration.
Oh, you one?
No.
And one, and once you're done with it,
I, I can't explain how little, the stuff
that I had a, I had another friend,
he was an American born tie, he was
tie by blood, but born in America and
he never got around to getting, they,
his, you know, this happens a lot.
People, they, the folks don't
get around to getting their
kids' nationality sorted out on
the, on the tie side especially.
We see this happen a lot.
And then they sort of come back
and then they want to get it.
I went, we helped him get it.
And I'll never forget, he,
he treated immigration and
everything, like all of us did.
You know what I mean?
The minute he had his id.
He just stopped caring and it was
like, and I was just sort of, it was
because he had been here on an visa.
He had Thai parents and all of this
good stuff, and, but the minute
he had it, he just stopped caring.
He was just like, yeah.
Well, I remember once I was talking
to him about something going on
with my visa and he was, he's just
like, well, do, do, do, do, do, do.
He, you know?
And I was like, yeah, thanks a lot.
Yeah.
2018 and onward one,
if you get citizenship.
Believe me, naturalized ties it.
It's like Gollum in the ring.
It's like, it's like it's our
precious, we we guard it zealously.
Well, that also takes me to the
other end of the spectrum, which
is the individuals that come here,
whether they're backpackers or
whatever else, and they just get
on these, you mentioned LTR, but
there's the DTV as they dvs too.
DTV and uh, I don't know.
Like there's this transition that
I think a lot of us go through
where you're a tourist here.
Yeah.
Or you're maybe a
long-term tourist here.
Yeah.
And then you're making this
transition to being an expat.
Right.
So how do you feel the difference
between like a digital nomad
or a tourist versus an expat?
Are they one of the same
or is there actually a big,
there's a big spectrum.
So there's tourists, to my
mind, there's tourists, digital
nomads, expats, immigrants.
And then there's like the true.
You, you've just completely
immigrated and become and gone
native, I guess you'd say.
Gone native would be the last.
So tourists are what they are.
We all know tourists.
They come and go, they do their thing.
Uh, the new edition is this digital
nomad and that had a prior iteration.
You, we were talking I think off air
before we went on, but about, um.
When I came in and we were
kind of talking about how you
come up, it's like a, it's like
climbing a cliff in certain ways.
I was very fortunate in that the
first two years I didn't have to
worry so much about getting the work.
Like I, there, there was, there was
enough work coming in for me that,
that I, I was pretty well okay.
On that side.
So I was just sort of
getting acclimated.
Now, I, I later had to deal
with the problems that most
people have right up front.
In my third, fourth, and
fifth years I dealt with that.
Most people deal with that.
Right at the beginning I was fortunate,
but in many ways it had added
challenges by doing it differently.
The, the difference be, so nobody really
came in at the same time I came in.
There's not a lot of people that
are like my age, that are like early
forties, you know, between 40 and 45.
You'll meet a ton of people here now,
especially that are like right under 30
mm.
Uh, but like somebody that's been
out here almost 20 years that's my
age, find some, it's pretty hard.
Like when I do, I'm always like,
uh, we usually end up being pretty
good friends because we have a lot
of the same experiences and things.
But no, there weren't a ton of
people coming in at that time.
You gotta remember we were coming
off, uh, the global financial crisis.
We were going to that
six, seven, and eighth.
That was why I left.
Right.
We stayed, it was a big reason.
'cause I was looking around,
I was like, oh, let's see what
this Asia thing's all about.
And then, uh, so when I, yeah.
When I came in, it was
still very old school.
Like you had to go in, you had to, I
never have been here without a B visa.
Mm. I always had a b. Wow.
Yeah.
So I was always in non-immigrant
status and, and so I didn't
even come in the tourist side.
I was planning to work down here.
The nomads are different
from the expats.
Expats, I. Retirees take
this how you want to take it.
No offense, like I, I just would put all
retirees into the expat category 'cause
that's the universe that they live in.
They're not, some of them like to work
or have something going on on the side
or offshore or whatever, but most of 'em
just wanna be in Thailand and hang out.
And that's that.
The nomads have, they have plans.
I don't know if their plans are
gonna go anywhere all the time.
Um, but they do have
a different mentality.
Uh, Matt Smith, we were talking about,
uh, Doug Casey earlier, and he's a guy
that talks to Doug from time to time.
And, and Matt Smith brought up a
good point in one podcast I saw
years back where he said, you know,
the problem with nomads is they're
somewhere between really putting
down roots and being a tourist.
Mm. So it's, it's kinda like.
The, we, you know how like the Marriott
has like residential side, that's
where the, like the nomads are at.
They're still in a hotel,
but they're in like the Oh,
okay.
Monthly rentals.
Yeah, yeah,
yeah.
And then, and then your true expat has
really transitioned over to, I need to
work from, man, I'm paying taxes here.
The big through line through all
nomads is they're constantly, always
trying to avoid tax in like all
jurisdictions, no offense, I get it.
They've, they've been sort, especially
their, uh, their demography and, and
the timing of like how they've come up.
It's kind of compelled them to
be truly nomadic and have to
wander around through all these
jurisdictions so they're not
getting banged over the head by tax.
'cause it's hard enough to make money
online or whatever it is they're doing.
I get the thinking it makes complete
and total sense, but the, but that
mentality is very different from expats.
Right?
You know, we, we were talking,
uh, on the way over here about.
British Chamber of Commerce and this
old boy who used to run British Chamber
of Commerce, guy by the name of Greg,
I'm forgetting his last name, but I
remember talking to him years ago.
He just looked at me.
I don't remember in the context
of what, but he just looked at me
and he goes, do you know who pays
the top rate of taxes in Thailand?
Do you know who's constantly in the top?
It's always foreigners.
Yeah.
It's the expat community.
So the difference between nomads
and expats to my mind is you're an
expat if you're sitting here and
you're chucking out some tax money.
Yeah.
If you're not, you're probably a nomad.
Or you're, yeah.
Right.
I mentioned this in another
discussion I had, but it was,
uh, I, I got the benefit from
having paid all those taxes.
So I've been paying
taxes for many years.
Yeah.
But it made my experience, uh,
going through the PR process.
And I assume citizenship
would be the same way.
They like to see how
much you've contributed.
God, yeah.
They,
right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I've seen people bite themselves
because if they're maybe, uh, a nomad
or maybe they're making that transition
and they're optimizing for their tax
too much, they might not be spending,
uh, or sending enough money through
Thailand or setting their salary high
enough and those things like, yeah,
you're saving a bit of money on taxes,
but there's downsides to that as well.
Yes.
You and, and look, they, they joked,
I, I remember there was this colonel
and these two like majors, or maybe
one was a major and one was a captain.
Uh, when I was doing my national,
uh, special branch, I was
going through special branch at
National Police Headquarters.
It's like the first, I think I was in
basically what I would call the second
phase of the nationality process.
And the, um, they actually looked at me
and they said, Hey, do you wanna know
how much taxes you paid here between
yourself and through your corporation?
And I was like, not really.
And they were, and they were
like, well, you're gonna know.
So they told me.
So you've paid quite a bit
in taxes, it sounds like.
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
I would say, I would say I've, I've
paid my fair share as it as it were.
The, um, yeah, but that, that's a big
differentiator to my mind between a
nomad and an expat is, is the tax thing.
And, and circling back to what I was
saying about what Matt Smith said is,
you know, these, these nomads, and not
all of them, I'm not trying to make
a broad sort of stereotype here, but.
It there, there's, they're
somewhere in between.
They're, they're not, they're not
exactly here full time, but they're
not exactly, not here full time.
You know, it's Thai and frankly
used to handle this a lot better.
We used to have what was
called Multiry visas.
That could be, you
probably remember this.
Yeah.
You could get 'em from
honorary consulates.
Yeah.
And they'd be like a year duration.
You get 90 days a pop.
I had tons of guys that were on
those, and especially the guys
that like worked off offshore.
They were in the military, they
were contractors, they were this,
that, or the other thing, you know?
Or they travel lot internationally.
You know, they'd spend six months
here, but it would be in three month
increment, three month increment.
And that was that.
That's, that, that is largely gone.
I mean, the honorary
consulates have been gone.
I, I remember making the videos
talking about the honorary
consulates and then those all
were pretty well gone by COVID.
But yeah, the, the difference between
nomads, they, they're just, they're
not quite living in the, it's sort
of in it, not of it, or, right.
You know what I'm saying?
Like you
working from Thailand
versus in Thailand.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Very big difference there.
A very big difference in fact, that
it all comes down to that I'm working
from Thailand, I'm working in Thailand.
That's a very big difference, which
comes down to work authorization
on a lot of this stuff.
Which again, there's standard
work permits where you're work
authorized in Thailand, and then
there's sort of everything else.
So
another thing, this is just my
opinion on the retirees, and I
don't mean to speak bad about it,
but, but I do remember, I, I love
your retirees, but all of you guys,
I've done, uh, cost of living videos
and I often in my comments will
have, uh, the retirees saying, oh my
gosh, it's crazy how much you spend.
And, and I, I don't know.
I can't help but say like,
okay, I'm raising a family.
There's this expensive
thing called school.
Yeah.
Uh, and, uh, and transport.
And I'm not relaxing here.
I'm, I'm here to work.
Um, I'm here to make as much
money and essentially build,
continue building up my nest egg.
And I think that's a little
bit different than when you're
depleting your nest egg.
Mm-hmm.
And of course, I think you
can get by very cheaply here.
Sure.
But, but not if you're.
Raising a couple of young children.
Well, yeah.
You're, you're building not burning.
I mean, that's, that's what you Yeah.
As they say back home, the, you
mentioned school, the great equalizer
of all of the cost differentials and
everything for, for an expat, especially
to my mind, is international school.
Hmm.
Because that's where it all comes back.
All the cheap food and all
the, oh, we can rent a place
that's amazing for nothing.
You know, like, it all comes back
when you have to send kids to
an inter international school.
And I'm not even talking about,
they all have to go to the, you
know, super duper expensive ones.
But, you know, even kind of
middle of the road schools
here, it's significant money.
That you've gotta find and
you gotta find that money.
Or they'll just be like,
well your kid's not going.
So have fun with that.
Yeah, I, there's a big
difference between the retirees
and the younger guys of that.
There is no doubt that said
the retirees are self-aware.
Hmm.
And that would be something I would
say that the nomads maybe lack a little
bit, is a little bit of self-awareness
where it's like, yeah, yeah, you're
here, but again, are you in it?
Are you of it?
Are you really here or are you
just kind of passing through?
And you know, lately, and I'm not
casting any aspersions here, but
lately, 'cause we're at the tail end
of high season, you always notice, at
least I do, at the tail end of high
season, the folks that have been here
a bit and have decided they're right
on the cusp of wanting to, to stay.
And then you als I also noticed that
they seem to be, you know, from bar
stools or wherever you go where there's
expats talking, you'll also see the
guy that's been here like three years.
Yes.
Telling those folks, the
guy that's been here like.
Yeah.
Six and a half months, like, okay,
now this is how you got blah, blah.
Yes.
And it's like, sometimes it's not bad
advice, but, and I'm not saying it's
all bad advice, but it's, it's also
a little like, Hey there Haas, like,
you know, three years in, yeah, you
have a few things to impart, but it
might not all be like what you think.
I've, I've often said
there's a 1 3, 5, 7 rule.
It's like, there's a stereotypical kind
of stereotypical kind of expat that
does a, or whatever you wanna call it,
that does a year here, they come in,
they do a year, it's like a year abroad.
You know, sometimes you'll
meet a guy that's on like a one
year specialized work contract.
They're just in, they're
out three year people.
Or like embassy folk, corporate people,
expat packages, although there's
fewer and further between of those.
I remember when I came in, in
oh eight, the era of the expat
package was ending, right?
And that, and that was
going a different way.
And then you'll meet the
guys that, oh, I've been here
five years and they leave.
They're almost always a terrible story.
Like I bought a gala house and
it's her house and ain of my house.
And then there's seven,
seven years, there's.
Are the guys that, and there tend
to be men, and we can talk about the
difference coming in that, but the
seven year guys tend to be, I, I've
had a few of these over the years.
I had one guy, the first one I noticed
with the phenomenon calls me up from
UK and it's like, Hey, I need you to,
uh, pack all my stuff in my house.
And ship it back to me.
I'm done with dialing and he
just threw up his hands, got
on a plane and he just left.
You know, another thing that I've
seen, uh, is individuals that have
been here for a month sometimes
think they know more than they know.
Then they get here three years or one
year and you start seeing, and again, I
like a lot of the YouTubers out there.
I think some of them provide a
lot of value, but some of them are
saying, oh, I've been here for one
year, and they start preaching.
You know how it all works.
Yeah.
And I'm always thinking it's the
same point about the three year.
Okay.
Kids.
I mean, yeah.
That's just one of those things where
I, I really like your analogy of, uh,
you know, someone who has gone from
being a hotel, hotel guest to working
or to living from the hotel residence.
Right.
And they really feel like,
oh, now I'm in real Thailand.
Now I understand real Thailand.
And you know, I don't think I'll
ever get to the point where I'm
like, I understand real Thailand.
I think the more you know,
the more you realize how
little you know, um, now you,
you know, less the longer you're here.
Right.
I actually kind of it
there in a weird way.
They're not sort of wrong 'cause
they, their, their first impressions
are oftentimes the best ones.
Mm. Yeah.
Or most accurate.
But yeah, the, the, yeah.
The giving advice at a year in, that's
a little, that's a little over the top.
And one of the weirdest phenomenons
for me, actually, phenomena for me,
just, and I experience it almost
daily, is dealing with people that
are significantly older than me
and significantly wiser than me in
their own sort of bailiwick their
own world where they're coming from,
you know, like they, they retired
outta the military, they're an
airline pilot, or they're a whatever.
Like in their world, they're
very good at what they do.
And, but then they come to me and, you
know, they're, look, they're talking
to this guy who's 20 years younger
than them, but I've done 18 years here.
Right.
You know, like I, it, it's a
different, it's a different thing.
You have a different, I I often
say I'm either the oldest young
guy in any given room here in
Thailand or the youngest old guy.
Yeah, that's what it always seems like.
And that may just be my
midlife crisis occurring.
Who knows?
Yeah.
Uh, I just turned 40 and so I, I'm a
few years behind you in age and a few
years behind you in experience here,
so I, I like your formula, but, um,
well, but you're in pr if you've
gone through that much bureaucracy,
you're in, you're, you're in Thailand.
I mean, you're not going anywhere.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But I, yeah, I'd love it here.
And I'll be honest, there were stages
that I, I wasn't to throw out my hands,
uh, but I definitely remember, maybe
it was around that seven year mark
where I was still pretty impatient.
Right.
And, and I think, I don't know
what year it happened, but I
definitely am way more accepting
of the way things are here.
And I'm also not so accepting that
I say I don't wanna push things
in terms of business, or I don't
want to, uh, you know, make it
effective company or whatever's like.
I am actually very motivated
still, but I'm also a better
understanding of how things work here.
And I'm not getting upset
at every bank, you know?
Uh, tell.
Yeah.
Right, right.
Yeah.
You know, so, I don't know.
I think, I think there's things to
work through and you might be surprised
how long it takes you to level up.
'cause it definitely took me quite
a few years to find that, finally
have that epiphany and stop trying
to change things, but then still
have the motivation and not just say,
oh, I'm, I'm fully here and I, I I
want to be indifferent and totally
fine and just go with the flow.
I still wanna push things forward,
but I'm not pushing it so forward
that I'm actually hurting my own,
you know, hand as I'm punching.
Well, I've, I, I've, I've observed
there's essentially three kinds of
expats overall and what, so, and it,
and it's really, it's like 10% are
probably fall into your and I category.
Yeah.
And then the, and the other
90% are pretty well evenly
divided between one of the two.
One is the type that wants to come in.
Change things.
I'm bringing something new to
Thailand, we're gonna boom, boom, boom.
Those guys burn out really fast.
Right.
I've watched that over time.
There's another type that
is a far more slow burn.
It's the complacency.
Yeah.
You get into real complacency
in Thailand, and I see this,
I saw this, especially when
they rolled out the blacklist.
Mm. Because if you recall, within a
year after that, they were finding all
these guys with like, I'd been here 12
years on overstay and da da dah dah.
Yes, I remember that.
That's all complacency bias.
That's all normalcy bias.
It's never gonna change.
You know, Thailand is strange
and so far as they don't change
often or particularly quickly, but
when it changes, we're on a new
thing now and we're doing this.
It was like the blacklist.
I told people, I was like,
they're really doing this.
Oh, they've said stuff like that.
Don't worry about that.
Da da da da da.
And by God they went and did it.
And then there's the third type, which
is kind of a mix, which is you have
to beat, you have to have a motor.
To be able to get down the road,
to do things, to do business here.
You can't be just com like
completely, you know, just,
just completely unmotivated.
But then at the same time, you gotta
watch that complacency side of things.
Yes.
'cause every time you think everything's
just hunky dory and it's all just
gonna be like that forever, that's
usually when something changes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I, I still look at.
It's important to fight the complacency,
but I think it's important to sometimes
travel back home, sometimes get a
little bit of another perspective
or, uh, hang around in some cases.
I know hanging around with
expats and ties, right.
You gotta find a balance because I,
I feel that it's important to still
have a little bit of that fire in you.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
And I, I can hear the fire when you
talk, and I know you say you're,
you're more, you know, acclimated
now, but at the same time you
still have the Americanness in
you.
Yeah.
Well, yeah.
I will get off on a rant about anything
if you gimme enough rope, so, yeah.
Fair enough.
But I still like, when you find the
balance, I still think it's an unlock
because there's enough of, there's not
enough complacency to just be going
with the flow with everyone else.
You have an, you have a competitive
advantage because you're able to
push things, but not too hard.
Right.
Well, and, and, and the Thais.
I, I, I, I feel it for lack of a better
term, from the ties if I am way off.
Yeah.
You know what I mean?
Like, if I'm way, way off,
the ties will kind of bump you
and kind of nudge you back in.
But for the most part, I get
the impression that they kind
of, yeah, they like that there's
a little bit of that fire.
But
when you accept that though,
I, I think life is not so bad.
Uh, and we get picky, you
know, that is the thing.
I think about Americans, we get a
little bit too picky and I think we
forget it's not the end of the world.
If you have a topping you don't like,
you live in the most
pampered bubble out.
I mean, in many ways us, us foreigners,
that if you can find a niche and
you can find something to make a
living at and live in Thailand, you
know, for the most part you just
kind of get to do whatever you want.
So we get a little entitled
Yeah.
When it doesn't just.
Perfectly go our way.
It's a real problem.
I do it myself.
I'm not, I'm not immune to it.
And I know we've talked about this,
but I think you, we, we talk about
that transition of when you start
earning in tto, things change, right?
Yeah, yeah.
Um, because you mentioned
the digital nomad.
Say, let's say that they're working
for an international company.
Let's say they're selling
something online, right?
They might be earning in US dollars and
they're could be living a fine life.
They could have a low cost of living
in Chiang Mai, something like that.
Right?
Totally fair.
But as soon as you start saying, I
have to earn in Thai bot and then
my expenses are in Thai bot, yeah.
It's, it's tough.
It's a different earning and
earning and spending in the
local currency is very different.
Actually.
Up, up to our conversation leading
up to this, to this interview.
I was actually thinking about something
about the DTV and about the bot
because I've been critical of the DTV.
I still don't think the policy was a
good one in, in how they brought it
out and they sort of did it to hype
up Paetongtarn Shinawatra when she
was coming into office, whatever.
I won't go into all that.
That being said, it took it recently.
Since I talk to you, I'm actually
starting to think that DTV.
Might be being, one of the things it
exists for is in response to what is
happening on the international currency
markets, the Americans, you know, I, I
don't know if you saw recently, Rubio
just did a thing where he was talking
about, Hey, the dollar, this isn't
gonna be the way it's been, kind of.
Yeah.
And not to go too deep into that,
but ties especially to policy level
are really good, especially watching
stuff that involves the currency.
And especially after the nineties,
you know, they're, they're
hypervigilant over that stuff.
Oh yeah.
If you think about it, if you've
got a bunch of foreigners in here.
They're actually earning in foreign
currencies, but they're here and then
they can't have bank accounts here.
So they're not doing a wire
and then, and then it's
converting instantaneously.
And then that goes on to the BOT
books as a, as a currency exchange?
No, no, no.
They're just pulling it out from
ATM cards, which that's a, that's
a credit banking transaction.
So I don't know exactly how that's
tabulated in terms of like the BIS
or the Bank of Thailand and how
they tabulated vis-a-vis the Federal
Reserve or something like that.
The whole DTV might have been created
with the thought in mind that, well, you
know, we're gonna have some, let's call
it turbulence in the currency markets
between us and our favorite countries.
The people we kinda like to do
business with, especially the
west, the Thai, Thailand doesn't
have an affinity for the west.
And then we will u we will u you know,
essentially these people working here
or working from, as you say, as opposed
to in Thailand, those people are have,
are bringing in funds from offshore.
Yeah.
And in the moment, yeah.
So you're literally seeing,
you're literally seeing an offset
between those currencies happening
instantaneously every single day.
That could change the tempo of that.
Got it.
So does it, it sort of, um, it keeps
such a stark, uh, shifts from it.
It kind of blends it a little bit
because you're, you're getting
the current exchange rate and it's
just being spent into the market.
Do you like, how is it helping Thailand?
Why?
Okay.
So think, okay, so think about this.
I, for years, I, I remember I went
to some panel, it was around the time
everybody was flipping out about the
TM 30, and it wasn't a panel on the TM
30, it was something else, but they,
there was a handout that I got given
and it was by some, it was something
having to do with the UN and, but
they had the visa categories on there.
Yeah.
And this is probably 2018, I would say.
Okay.
And, and.
Between married to Thai and
o retirement visa holders.
At that time they, and this was
the un, this was like a UN handout.
They reckoned that there were
about a hundred thousand, what
we would call just retirees.
Like the, the people that bring in
800,000 baht, leave it a nerd in a
bank account and then just are here.
Okay?
Mm-hmm.
So at a hundred thousand people,
I did, I did the math and I was
like, so it was like about a billion
dollars in foreign exchange was just
coming in and being dropped here.
Wow.
So that creates a new demand for
the baht in those currency terms.
If you strip that away and you're not
gonna completely strip it away, 'cause
the retirees aren't going anywhere.
But if you're bringing in a new
group of people and you don't
want more of that heavily weighted
currency situation where it all
just gets dumped onto Thailand.
And then it gets held here.
There's good sides to that
too, but there's bad sides.
One of the bad being, again, these
foreign currencies are chasing the
bot, therefore the baht is rising.
Yes,
yes, yes.
Which has problems for ex, for
exports, tourism, whatever.
If it's happening on a daily basis
in the currency markets, that has
to be having a different effect.
Okay.
They're not feeling it's, it's
not, it's like an albatross.
And I said at the time too,
'cause Thailand's got a
constant Sophie's choice.
It's constant, it's like year
to year they make a decision.
This pa going into this high season,
I think it's, especially in light of
us going into the royal funeral and
losing her majesty and everything.
And on top of it, there was all
the politics and stuff, they kind
of wrote this tourist season off.
So if you saw from a policy level, they
were looking more at goose and exports.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
So that said, it didn't, didn't
really stop tourism from going
through the roof because everybody
wants to come to Thailand, but.
The, the point I'm trying to make is
from year to year, they have to make a
decision due to their currency position.
Do we want to have tourism do
really good or do we want to
have exports do really good?
Right.
And the retirees, these people that
are just kind of here, their money
was acting like an albatross under
certain circumstances and they, you
know, they don't really fit into
the mold of a tourist or whatever.
So I think at the end of the
day, Thailand decided, no,
we're gonna keep our retirees.
And as I've said, at some point they
may just grandfather 'em all in and
not allow more, but I don't think
they're ever gonna reject them and
say they can't come or whatever.
They'll always be able to
get the visa they came into.
So, but the point I'm trying to make
is, I think there was a, there was
a concerted decision at some point
that if we start bringing, if new
people start coming in, we gotta
figure out a way that they're not
just gonna have a tremendously.
They're not gonna have a tremendous
impact, good, bad, or indifferent.
Tremendous impact on our
currency when they do.
And the setup of the DD of the DTV
is pretty damn conducive to that.
Yeah.
Well, I mean, I think it's very
interesting to look at the, uh, exchange
rates and, and you're seeing, as you
said, uh, Rubio, I didn't hear him,
but I, but I've obviously heard the
US starting to talk about how they
don't necessarily want the strongest
currency and how they're Okay.
Like, this is very strange because
you're getting this around the
world where everyone's starting to
strike that balance and saying how
strong do they want their currency?
And of course, where recently you see
the, the Thai bot is pretty strong now.
Like, I mean, we've seen these
different cycles, right, right.
And.
And gold is another very interesting
thing in being in Thailand, right?
So you're starting to see, oh,
this is a little bit of a different
subject, but I'm always a little
bit interested to see why the bot
has been so strong, whether or not
the government wants to weaken it.
Um, and then also noticing that the, uh,
not as many ties seem to be buying gold.
And I don't have the stats behind
this, but I don't see packed, you know,
people buying gold right now because of
course it's so expensive in Thailand.
And on every corner you see the
70,000 bought price, which I mean,
you and I when we came here, right,
it was 16,000 bought, I first started
buying the bought weight gold at 16,000.
You want my theory on what's going on?
Please tell me.
It has to do with Japanese carry trade.
Okay.
Right,
right.
I think that they're laying
off action down here.
Mm.
Because, and the other cool thing
about it is they can lay it off
into Thai gold because it's on
a different weight and measure.
Ah.
Remember, Thai bot is baht weight.
the constitution weights and measures.
It's very, very important stuff.
This is the fundamentals of
even sovereignty is getting to
decide what weights and measures
are in your given country.
Thailand's one of the few
places on earth that has its
own gold standard, right?
So when stuff moves in and outta here,
it doesn't affect the rest of the
world, the way it affects other places.
Mm,
and it, and it can come in here
very opaquely too, and Thailand
should do nothing to change that.
I know that there's a bunch of
bureaucrats running around talking
about adding VAT to gold and everything.
You're gonna shoot
yourselves in the foot.
It's gonna be bad if
you mess with the gold.
If you mess with the gold
markets, the system works good.
But what what I think is going on
is, look, uncle Sammy has created a
lot of inflation since quantitative
easing started a bajillion years ago.
They gotta lay it off somewhere.
Southeast Asia isn't
a terrible place now.
I don't think it's being laid off
directly into the Thai economy.
I think it's coming in and then
bouncing back out to other places.
Laos, Myanmar, Cambodia, ring a bell.
Vietnam as well.
But you can bring it in
and put it into Thai gold.
Know where it's at, know what it is.
Mm. And nobody else can tell on
their financial sheets or even
in their own gold markets that
anything's really happened.
It's the perfect way
to move stuff around.
And my personal opinion is
everybody said, well, why didn't,
why Dave Colum, a guy that I
listen to a lot when he podcasts.
He's a, he's a professor
from Cornell University.
He was saying, if somebody can
explain to me why the carry trait
hasn't exploded, I'd love to hear it.
Well, Dave, here's me telling him
my theory is they're laying off
action into the Thai gold market.
That's my theory.
It's very interesting.
Um, you know, something
else that I found kind of
interesting recently was silver.
Of course Silver's gone crazy.
But the other thing that's interesting
is seeing silver sold in gold shops.
Now that was, I mean,
I don't know if that's
Oh yeah.
Well, well, I mean there's
demand, but they're coming.
But the fact that those bars, I mean, I
know that there's always been a little
bit of a silver market and I know
that there is plenty of silver that
has that too.
Don't forget.
Right.
And that, that's the interesting thing.
'cause I remember just going to the
regular gold shops that I see all the
time, seeing the fact that they had the
gold bars in probably bought weight.
Right.
Sitting there and it's
like, well that's strange.
And then I started
looking at the premium.
Number one, they had a very
high premium compared to gold.
Yeah.
Uh, and then number two, they
have the vat, the 7% on top.
And, but it was just strange because
I know we've talked about this in
the US in the past, is that, or not
you and I, but, uh, the fact that.
Silver is the poor man's gold, right?
Mm-hmm.
And it's when people can't
afford gold, they go to silver.
Mm-hmm.
And we're seeing that
play out in Thailand.
Very interesting.
Yeah.
Well, and, and I mean, satton.
Mm. Right.
Silver,
yes.
You know, box satton, gold, silver, the,
uh, yeah, I'm not, I'm really not at
all surprised about, about the rise in
silver other than, I mean, it, it had
to have such a hell of a rally out here.
To overtake, as you say, the
premium as well as the vat
to make it really desirable.
But hell now, I mean, it'll probably
be a secondary medal now, you know?
Yeah.
Ah, it's very strange.
But yeah, I hope, I hope no
one changes anything about
the, the Thai gold market.
'cause I've always spoken about
how much I love that in Thailand.
Yes.
I think it's absolutely just one
of the coolest things, and this
is very different than individuals
that are coming here and thinking
they're gonna make some money
by, by buying gold in island.
I'm not talking about that.
No.
I'm just talking about saving
money in gold here is so easy.
Going to the gold shop and saying,
let me just get a bar of gold, let
me get some jewelry, is so easy.
I absolutely love it.
Well, and and, and it's
completely fungible.
Yes.
As long as you're there during
the hours of the Gold Trader
Associ Trader's Association.
Yes.
You can just turn it right
back into cash, you know?
So, I mean, it's like perfect.
And again, I, I, I can't stress
enough, don't mess with it.
This is one of those things.
It ain't broke seriously.
Don't fix it.
Alright.
So gold and silver.
Very interesting.
But I want to transition over
to back to business because, you
know, you and I have talked, uh,
about the US Treaty of Amity.
Mm-hmm.
And I think it's very interesting.
You said your, your company is
registered.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I treaty certified out here years ago.
Yeah.
I love the treaty.
So
why, why did you decide to go that way?
Because
I could own it.
Yes.
Yeah.
I mean, yeah.
Uh, wait, look, Thailand in
the US it's, it's like Thailand
just fit me like a glove.
'cause I got out here in 2008
and it was still like, it was
like 1988, you know what I mean?
Mm-hmm.
I mean, and, and Thailand and
the US' diplomatic relationship
goes back now 191 years.
We've been in contact with
each other for over 200.
Mm-hmm.
So 191 years, we've had some iteration
of what now is called the Treaty Amity.
The latest iteration was ratified
in 1966 under the provisions
of the Treaty of Amity.
It stipulates that, notwithstanding the
fact that a company has to abide by the
Foreign Business Act, if said company
is determined to be an American company,
then it's granted national treatment.
So it's just treated as
if it's a Thai company.
So we can own our companies a hundred
percent if they're Amity certified.
Okay.
On top of that, I discovered this
about six, seven years ago, and
this to my mind is like the really,
it's like, what's that line from
Seinfeld where he says, it's like
discovering plutonium by accident.
You know, the on top of it, when Trump,
in the first term created Trump tax.
Mm. Part of what they created under that
was something called, uh, they created.
Specific scrutiny and specific
provisions for what were called
controlled foreign corporations.
Now everybody else in their dog
in the tax world ran off and tried
to figure out how to make like one
share control a company so that the,
they could mess with the control.
I didn't really go that route.
I was like, well, what's foreign?
What does foreign mean?
So I went and looked it up and
in our tax code it says A foreign
corporation is not domestic.
So what's domestic?
Domestic says Any company created
or organized under US law.
Now pursuant to Article six of the
Constitution, the supremacy clause.
When the Treaty of Amity was ratified
by two thirds of the Senate in
1966, it became the supreme law
of the land of the United States.
Treaties are higher level
law than even statutory law.
They, because it's done through
the President and the Senate's a
different process, it's with a foreign
nation, it's viewed as higher up.
So it's, it's covered
under the supremacy clause.
So I go back and say, well, all of these
companies have to at least be organized
under US law, because otherwise they'd
have to abide by the Foreign Business
Act, and they couldn't be a hundred
percent American owned to begin with.
Right?
So that makes 'em domestic.
So then I go over to the double
tax treaty between us and the ties.
And under that thing it says
non-resident corporations
are the corporations of any.
Of the contract of the two
contracting parties that do
not do any business within the
jurisdiction of the other party.
So IE they have no branch, they
have no subsidiary, nothing.
They're only doing business
in the jurisdiction of the
other contracting party.
They're not having any business
done within the United States.
Okay.
So that makes a domestic non-resident
corporation of the United States.
Non-resident corporations are
affirmatively forestalled from
being taxed under a treaty.
We ourselves signed, and these
companies are domestic by the terms
of a treaty we are ourself signed.
We created a massive, what
some would call a loophole.
It's not a loophole, it's
just a legal fact that these
are domestic, non-resident
corporations of the United States.
What's that mean?
They just fall completely
outside of their purview.
They're nothing, as long as
they're not doing business
in the us they're nothing.
It's another reason I think that
they may have created the DTV because
if you come under one of these and
you have an Amity company, I don't
know that anybody, tax wise from
over there is they were gonna be
able to come after the company.
Now there's a very big difference
between the individual American right,
and one of these corporate structures.
And again, I'm not gonna go into any
further real deep legal analysis,
but the thing to understand
here, these are really special.
We get benefits that no other
nationality gets out here.
And under many circumstances, you may
be in a position where you're better
positioned vis-a-vis the US tax man.
Wow, that's so interesting.
So, so would you say, is there
any circumstance that a US citizen
that's working and doing business
in Thailand and let's say not a
hundred percent Thailand, I think a
lot of companies will primarily, uh,
work here, but maybe they'll work
with, uh, Australians or whatever.
They'll, they'll have
some other stuff going on.
Mm. Would it mostly make sense or
in most cases make sense for them to
consider a US Treaty of Amity Company
as opposed to something like BOI?
Absolutely.
Yeah, so it's just,
well, Bois and I have no issue with
BOI don't get me wrong, but BOI has
a lot of administrative oversight,
right?
They're constantly looking at you,
especially if you get tax concessions
as like what exactly are you doing?
What exactly are you invoicing?
Because they want their
money in the tax context.
With Amity, it's just,
it's a different process.
It's a different crew.
Yeah.
And that, that brings up things I've
seen with BOI companies here is it
seems like the pendulum goes back and
forth too, where they'll crack down
a lot more on BOI companies because
they'll, they'll not crack down.
That's the wrong way to put it.
But I would say that they, uh,
scrutiny.
There's more scrutiny.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, I think some of the tso,
TISO, um, categories, I've, I've
seen more demands out of them.
Um, I dunno, so, so it seems
like it's changing a lot.
That makes Well,
but remember the, the concessions
on some of those are huge.
Yeah.
It's not like scrutiny.
Apropos not,
no, no, no, of course.
Yeah.
No.
Now Amity is just a different thing.
It, it, it's actually, I wouldn't
even hardly compare it to BOI because
really all that the Amity company
is getting is an Amity certificate,
which is semi analogous to a
foreign business certificate by BOI
Now, BOI has the option to give.
Umpteen bajillion other
types of concessions.
Amity is just, I can own it.
Okay.
That's, that's really it.
And that was the main reason that
of course, you, you went down that
direction as you started, right?
Yeah, when I started and then later
when I, when, when I really dug
into this and I was like, holy crap.
Like now that's it again, the individual
is not the same thing as the company.
Right.
And we're all paid individually.
But if you're, if you get the
foreign earned income exclusion
and you have an amity company for
most of my ses, I mean, you're done
worried about most things, you know?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Great point.
Great point.
Now, um, I'm very curious about your
opinion on the outlook for Thailand.
I mean, we've been pretty positive.
I think we both feel pretty
good about Thailand, right?
We wouldn't be here otherwise, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
But how do you feel now?
Right?
The, we, we just had the election.
I think everything's going
on now, so it's a little bit
of a tense time potentially.
Yeah.
But, but I want to know,
where do you see the future?
Are you positive?
Is there a negative, positive outlook?
I'm so positive.
I like, yeah.
I, I, I feel so good about
the future of Thailand.
I can taste it in my spit.
Like this, this place is gonna do so
well Now I, I really do believe that, I
think 15 years of a lot of baggage and
a lot of, uh, feedback loop, negative
feedback loops in politics are gone now.
Good, bad, and different.
I, I really don't care in a partisan
way much, you know, I, I have my own
thoughts and I have my own sort of,
uh, preferences as far as parties,
but the real thing I'm very happy
to see is I think finally Thailand.
Okay, we've got a parliament.
They're gonna go off and do what
parliament does, Thailand can
get, get on with making money.
Mm-hmm.
You know, I'm just sick of having
to just this constant feedback loop
of Oh my God, you know, and who's
gonna be the next this and that
and the pageantry of all of these,
you know, that I, I covered pretty
extensively the return of, of, um,
when the new government came in, in the
aftermath of the military government.
Yeah.
And.
I was optimistic, but it
just, the same feedback loop
just basically started again.
And I think everybody that had been
here a while was all just sitting there
going, we really doing this again.
I, I think all we are in a new
era, like I and I, I'm gonna be
very interested to watch what the
new opposition does, because I
think they're gonna have a totally
different paradigm than in the past.
I think that the new majority, I
think the new government will have a
totally different paradigm in the past.
I think, I think it will be primarily
pro business, but my hope is just from
what I've watched them do, especially on
it, and when he was kind of the, usually
the second partner in whatever coalition
he was usually in, their attitude tends
to be, can we all just make some money?
You know?
And that's what I agree with.
So I, I, I can't tell you.
Yeah.
I'm very, very optimistic.
I think the demography is here now.
I think the young folks are coming
in to enjoy Thailand and we'll
get the sort of the nomad money.
I think that there's gonna be
real business investment here.
Did you see that foreigners bought
more stock than they bought in
like, I don't know, half a decade?
Just on the news?
Just in the aftermath of the election?
Yeah.
I mean,
yes, yes, yes.
I think everybody that's sort of been
following it is pretty optimistic
about where things are going.
I, I, myself am.
Yeah, the set, I remember I, I'd been
putting money in for a very long time,
and it's always been flat, you know,
at least for I remember 10 years.
But, but now again, things change.
Yeah, right.
Uh, it seems like everyone's just
looking for something that is stable.
People actually know what's
coming next, and with stability
comes, you know, investment.
Well, and that, and, and, and
actually that's a good point.
And that's more to my point is look,
the way that this thing has ha, I know
there's some discrepancies and the
whatever, but however this plays, we're
looking at a, a pretty stable coalition,
I think for at least two years.
Yeah.
Which is more than we could say.
I mean, the military governments were
what they were, I mean, we had nine
and a half years of it, but I don't
know if you remember the first three
or four years where Ute every other
week was like, okay, three months
from now we're gonna do something.
Oh, I remember because you didn't,
again, and nothing, there's a lot
to say about those folks, but that
wasn't exactly the same kind of.
Certainty that I think we've
gotten since this election.
Right.
And, and again,
it'll be curious to see how it plays
out, but I'm very, very optimistic.
I'm very, very optimistic.
Now, you'd mentioned a theory that you
have to me, uh, off camera, something
called the Suez Canal Theory, and
I'd love you can expand on that.
What is your theory here?
Uh,
so I read a book, a couple of books.
One book I read was about the
British Raj, and then another
book I read was The Decline
and Fall of the British Empire.
But.
In both of them.
They mentioned that with the opening
of Suez, it changed the Raj, especially
the Raj, the early Raj, where the
Brits were just sort of out here.
I don't know if you've ever
read the Asia series by James
Clavell type in Noble House.
Uh, king Rats, the first one.
It, it, it sort of covers the original
sort of the, when the British first sort
of got out here, and in that one they
were dealing with Hong Kong and type.
But in the bri, in the mo in the book, I
read about the British Raj, and this had
an impact all across sort of that era
of expat dom, if you wanna call it that.
When the Suez Canal opened what they
called the mem sobs, the, the, the
fema, the women folk could start coming.
Out to the rest of the empire.
Right?
In great numbers that changed
the demography ever after.
And there were those, and you
can read the, the tales from
the time of the, the guys.
Oh, this, you know, it's not the same.
We, we were having a great
time and then the girls came.
There is a, and I'm not saying this
is the same thing either, and I'm not
saying one way or the other, but there
was a demographic shift within the
old British empire in the aftermath
of Suez because of this exact thing.
We're seeing it in the
aftermath of COVID.
I would argue I saw it a little bit last
year, but this year, I mean, it used
to be, and I'm not saying this in the
pejorative, but you never saw Farang
female hardlfarangll out here, right?
I mean, you saw one walking
alone on the street.
It was like seeing a
wild deer back in Kansas.
Everyone swarming.
Yeah.
No, well, it wasn't unheard of, but, but
when you saw it, you'd be like, oh wow.
There's a Ong girl.
Okay, coofarangAnd then move on the.
But now they, they're,
they're traveling alone.
They're traveling in groups,
they're coming over here.
Uh, it looks to me like they're starting
to join the expat community in ways
that, frankly, up to now, they really
didn't do in the numbers before.
This is gonna have a shift,
and it's not gonna shift the
way that I think people think.
I'm gonna say it's gonna, it's,
it's not what I think will happen.
Among the Luke Chrome communilook
khrueng think like 10, 15 years
from now, you will see far more
Mom's Ong Dad's Thafarangght.
Yeah.
And the minute I saw
that I was like, oh wow.
'cause look, people that might not
know this, but farang girls and Thai
are kind of fond of one another.
Yeah.
They're, they're not
unfound to one another.
And I think we're, we're, it's not gonna
be that it's gonna change the expat
community 'cause they're gonna run out
here and I don't get the impression
that most of these females even really
care what the foreign guys are doing.
Right.
That's, that's really my, that
I, I'm just sort of observing
them, but I'm sitting there going.
Yeah, but I've also like the
Thai are noticing them as well.
Oh yeah.
And I think it's gonna change
the expat universe when you start
seeing, uh, a larger number of
look khrueng kids, especially where
mom's, the farang and dad's the Thai.
Yeah.
Very interesting.
And I think it's a very positive leaning
indicator to your point of all of this.
It's that it just gives, gives you
more credence to your, your theory
that things are gonna be better.
Oh yeah.
You know,
one of the smartest guys I knew, he
used to work for the American Embassy
over in, in, uh, Cambodia for years.
He was a very good friend of
mine, still a good friend of mine.
I'll remember, I'll never forget
sitting around Riverside with him.
This is probably around 2012 or 13
and there was like a gaggle of farang
girls who were kind of walking by.
And weirdly enough in Pinon Pen at
that time, I think especially because
of the NGO coverage over there, there
were a lot of foreign females over
there, like more than you'd think.
And I remember him just looking at me
and he said, well, you know, financially
everything's good in Cambodia.
And I said, what do you mean?
He said, it's always financially good in
Cambodia if the white girls are around.
And I was like, well, I never
thought of it that way, but that's
how, I guess that's our role.
The um, uh, my, yeah, I think it's gonna
have a demographic impact and I think
it's not gonna change expat in the way
I think people think it might, I think.
But I think it will have an impact.
It's gonna be interesting to watch.
Very interesting.
Well, yeah, I'm very
positive about it all too.
I, I love to hear further
reinforcement that, uh, you know,
we don't have to, uh, leave Thailand
because things are going crazy.
Instead, we're on the up and up and
we're probably in a great position here.
Right.
So
yeah, hunkered downtime is over.
We're, we're, we get like it's
the seven fat years now from here.
That's how I see it.
Yeah.
I just have a final question for you.
Um, so if you were 30 and you were
landing today, what would you do if you
were starting a business in Thailand
or just starting a life in Thailand?
What would you do now?
I'd honestly probably be
really considering the DTV.
It knowing everything I know at
this moment now I think the DT
v's gonna go through a reshuffle.
They're going like tweak it and tighten
it and do all kinds of things to it.
But I would probably be looking at that
if I, especially if if, uh, finances
were of a concern, I just kind of
rushed, excuse me, rushed headlong
into Thailand in certain ways it
worked, it might not have, you know,
so in retrospect, I would probably
take my time would be the thing.
It is.
Just take a minute and kind of,
you know, I say this a lot to,
especially the young retirees.
The guys are like just
above 50, you know?
'cause they'll say like, oh,
well maybe I wanna set up
a company and do all this.
And I'm like, look, look, look.
That's a lot of expenses and
things that you don't even know how
expense, you know, like, it, it's,
it's, there's knock ons and stuff.
There's taxes you gotta pay
and everything like that.
Just get your, get your visa.
Come over here, do a year.
See what you think and then make a move.
That's probably the best advice
for the younger guys too.
Although that said, you know, I've
noticed in my older age I have a
tendency to be too complacent where
it's like, yeah, you can just calm
down a little bit more and when you're
younger, sometimes it is better to just
take the leap and try to do something.
And I think a lot of these guys are,
I'm really, I'm really interested to
see how this plays from here because I
think what we may have ended up doing
is bringing in a lot of tech guys
that can kind of work from anywhere
and we might end up seeing some of
these tech developments benefiting
Thailand too, like directly here.
Be interesting to see my, my
best advice to somebody new if I
was coming or what I would think
of myself as coming in at 30.
I would be looking to find a visa
that I don't have to mess around.
With a ton of border running, but
it'll allow me to have a year.
Now, here's where the DTV
may be problematic, which
is you may be stuck with it.
I talked about this when it
first came out, that like once
you're in it, you have it.
It's sort of like elite where it's
like elite's not work authorized,
right?
And so if you want to get work
authorized, you have to lead,
you get another visa, you have to
have it run parallel, da da da.
You could end up putting yourself
in a position where it's like
more complicated down the track.
So if you instantly have what you're
gonna do to do business, yeah, go
ahead and do a standard company
and get in there and just do it.
Yeah.
If you really are just looking
around, take your time.
Take the year.
I don't know.
DTV is gonna be an interesting
one to watch because I don't
think they're quite done with it.
It was, it was like a half done
work and they kind of put it
through and now we'll sort of
see how they finish it off.
Yeah, it's just sort of round that out.
Take your time, get into a
visa that'll allow you to be
here for a minimum of a year.
A million things that you think, you
know, cold coming in are just wrongly.
Absolutely.
You know, so it takes
time to learn that stuff.
It takes time to learn that stuff.
Yeah.
And that does remind me, someone
actually reached out just in
a, in a comment, but he was
saying, how do I get a job here?
I'm a, you know, experienced software
developer, uh, you know, I'm sending
all my resume to all these places in
Thailand and no one's accepting me.
And I was like, well, you're not here.
You're not here.
Really, really hard.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Really hard to get.
And, and to your point, not a lot
existed in terms of something that's,
uh, relatively easy to get Right.
And relatively straightforward and
gives you a bit of time to get out there
and talk to people when you're here.
Right.
You
know.
Well, and the, and the other thing
is to, to that point, you have
to be here to realize the jobs
that are instantly available.
I don't know how many guys have,
you know, they tried shooting
resumes through and going
through corporate like that.
Look, I knew a dude and really
smart guy worked for major airlines.
Uh, then he, he worked in the music
industry, but came here and he was
always trying to do it that way.
He ended up becoming like a, you call
it a manager, but it's more like a Maer
d of a really nice restaurant here.
Wow.
And I happen to know, he does
actually really, really well.
Sometimes you think restaurant
in Thailand, probably not the
most money, but there's some
places that make a lot of money.
He told me a million times he
was like, I had to be here.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I had to to get that job because I was
going for something else that really,
in a lot of these circumstances,
that job isn't actually even there.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, some people want to get the
job that actually is a protected
job or that plenty of ties can do.
Yeah.
And then you really, so to your
point, you have to play a little
bit of an audible and you can't
play an audible from afar.
You know?
That's
well put.
Yeah, that's exactly right.
And you, you have to be
on the ground to do it.
Uh, that, and that's another big one,
is, uh, I look, it took me a long time.
I even, my skillset and my background,
I had a very limited set of skills
for anything anybody wanted to
pay for here for, especially
like the first 10, 11 years.
I became Thai, things changed really
rapidly from that point because I
was able to do a lot more things.
But yeah, look, I, that's
a big one to the new guys.
E especially if you're not here
yet, you don't know what you don't
know, especially when it comes to
the issue of just how in demand
you're gonna be because you think
you're gonna be a lot more in demand
Yes.
Than you probably are.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I, I'll share my quick naive story
here is that I was, uh, feeling
very positive when I left the us
uh, with, you know, a lot of offers
and, uh, working in consulting and
it was one of these things where I
was flying high, I was feeling great.
I came here, I was like, look
at all these consulting firms.
I can go to my Deloitte, my
Accenture, all these other things,
and I have all this history.
I've done so well.
And then I got a little bit of the slap
in the face to say, oh, it's not so
easy to just transfer and get a good
salary from a multinational, because
the question is, why should we hire you?
Yeah.
Right.
And, and I think we need that
slap in the face to say, we.
You know, the reality
is it's different here.
The needs are sometimes different.
If you don't have skills that, uh,
that can't be easily had either by the
local market or by expats that have
been waiting in line for years and
years to get in and get that job, then
you're, you ain't all that special.
Right?
Yeah.
And, and you gotta be
grounded a little bit.
And
yeah, the big one that I think a lot,
most foreigners don't get that when that
employer is looking at you, it's not
just your salaries worried about paying,
it's also you gotta have a work permit.
And that means depending on what
their corporate setup is, they
gotta have, they may have to have
a ratio of tie employees to you
versus your work permit, et cetera.
So there's all kinds of hidden sunk
costs that go in from the employer side
that I think when you're new especially,
and you're young or just new.
That you don't really see.
Ah, because again, it's just
not something that factors
into people's thinking.
Well, yeah.
And they're taking a huge risk.
We've talked a lot about those, those
phases that you go through, whether
it's one year, three year, you know,
and, and you could very easily burn out.
And that is a huge loss on them if
they're going through that whole
process of the work permits for you,
and then you leave after a year.
That's what it, it always gets me when
people are looking for financing here.
Oh yeah.
And they, and they're like, what?
They're, they're just
reject ferron outta hand.
I'm like, if you take a 10 million bot
loan from these people and then just get
on a plane and leave, there's virtually
nothing they're ever gonna do about it.
Like, I mean, they could try, but
it's not, it's not, you know, once
you get out of the jurisdiction.
'cause it's just the nature of it here.
Thailand has like an old
school way of doing things.
There's no sort of long arm that
gets to come in from anywhere else
and pull people outta here legally.
But at the same time,
it works the other way.
That's why they don't wanna
finance a bunch of farang because
you're not, you're not tied.
They can't, they can't track
you down, like you say.
I mean, if they give you a great
job and then you burn out in six
months, I mean, that's a huge cost
that's just gone to waste for them.
Absolutely.
So, uh, Ben, is there anything
that you wish we would have
discussed that we didn't?
Not really.
I'll probably think of it the minute the
camera goes off, but no, none at all.
Not at
all.
Alright, well that's awesome.
Uh, what is the best way for individuals
to reach you if, 'cause I understand you
do a lot of different services, but the
question is like, they need some advice.
They, I, whether that's setting up
a business, whether that's visas,
whatever, it seems like you do
consultations on a whole bunch of
stuff.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Anything that's paying,
we'll talk to you about it.
The, uh, no info@legal.co.th
is the best way to email us.
You can also email
info@integritylegal.com.
It, it'll come through the same main.
Email switchboard.
Frankly, our email is the best
way to get in touch with us.
We get a lot of people that
say, Hey, your phones are off.
They're not off.
We're using them.
It's just we're not answering
because we're on them.
Uh, the best way to get ahold of
us is generally through email.
You can also find me also on YouTube,
but email info@integritylegal.com
or info@legal.co th
Awesome.
Well, thanks for doing this.
Super valuable.
Thank you.
I really appreciate your time, man.
No, no.
Thank you very much.
Thanks to your audience too.