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For over 25 years Proverbs 31 Ministries' mission has been to intersect God's Word in the real, hard places we all struggle with. That's why we started this podcast. Every episode will feature a variety of teachings from president Lysa TerKeurst, staff members or friends of the ministry who can teach you something valuable from their vantage point. We hope that regardless of your age, background or stage of life, it's something you look forward to listening to each month!
Kaley Olson:
Hello, friends. Thanks for tuning in to The Proverbs 31 Ministries Podcast where we share biblical Truth for any girl in any season. I'm your host, Kaley Olson, and I'm here with my co-host and my friend and my boss, Meredith Brock.
Meredith Brock:
Well, hey, Kaley, it is a pure pleasure to play those three roles in your life. I love it every day. But today, we are going to hear from our friend, an incredible author and teacher, Katy McCown. She took time out of her very busy day with all six of her children to talk with us about something that I think is really important and sometimes confusing, which is unity versus oneness versus sameness versus surrender. She's going to talk a little bit about making some intentional choices to belong. It's a really, really good one, you guys. I think you're going to love it.
Kaley Olson:
Yes, I agree. And before we jump into today's episode with Katy, I wanted to share about a free resource that we've got linked in the show notes below. It's titled “Does God Care?: 10 Promises From God To Remember When You Feel Forgotten.” Honestly, this is a perfect resource to pair with Katy's teaching because as you learn what it means to be unified and what it means to surrender yourself to God's will, sometimes it's hard to do that whenever you feel really forgotten and isolated from the Lord. And so this is a great resource. It's absolutely free. So just scroll down below to the link in our show notes, and download it for yourself or maybe for a friend.
Meredith Brock:
And you know what, Kaley? That's a good reminder. We link so many goodies in our show notes, so it's always helpful. Listeners, if you're hearing this right now, scroll on down after you listen and check out what we've recommended. All kinds of free stuff there that we don't want you to miss out on. All right, Kaley, let's jump into our conversation with our friend Katy.
Kaley Olson:
Well, we are so excited to welcome our friend Katy McCown to the show. Welcome, Katy.
Katy McCown:
I am so excited to be back on The Proverbs 31 Ministries Podcast. Thank you for having me.
Meredith Brock:
Well, Katy is no stranger to the podcast. Just like she said, she's welcomed back. She's taught with us a couple of episodes over the years, but for those of you who don't know Katy, please allow me to tell you a little bit about her. Katy is the wife of a former NFL player. The mom of six kids. That's right, folks, six. It takes two hands to count them all. And she is passionate about connecting women to God's Word through her ministry, her writing and her podcast. She recently just released a new Bible study titled She Belongs: Finding Your Place in the Body of Christ.
Kaley Olson:
Man, Katy is a busy woman and not only does she do all of these things, but we just found out that Katy also took a part-time job at her kid's school so that she could spend more time with her rising senior who will be graduating this year. So, Katy, in the midst of all of that and the heart-wrenching update that you gave us about a mother's love — who will do anything to be with her son — thank you so much for taking time out of your busy day to be with us. That means a lot.
Katy McCown:
I am smiling from ear to ear. This is a blessing to be here.
Kaley Olson:
Well, Katy, I mean at Proverbs 31, we really do share the same goal as you, which is to connect women to God's Word and really make it practical and understandable as it relates to what they're walking through. And so one of the things you're here with us to talk about today is how as women we feel really disconnected these days. I know I'm not the one that hasn't felt that. I'm sure that there are a lot of other listeners who feel the same way. But you know that there is promise in the community of the body of Christ, and that's what you're here to talk about with us today. And so I can't wait to hear what you're going to unpack. Why don't you take it away?
Katy McCown:
Thank you, Kaley and Meredith. I'm so excited to talk to you today on this subject of belonging in the body of Christ. So I'm going to define those two words here in a minute: “belonging” and “body of Christ.” But before I do, I want to share with you kind of what I call a game changer that God used to change my thinking on this subject.
So to do that, I want to tell you about a day that at this point has been more than three years ago since this day. But I can tell you that on this day more than three years ago, I can remember every little detail. And you may have a memory like that too — that still years and years later, it just stands out so vivid. So I can remember what I wore on this day. I mean, all the way from my shoes to my jacket. I know exactly what I wore, which is so weird that I still remember a
particular outfit from a particular day three years ago.
I can certainly remember where I went, but I remember how I walked in the room to the place where I was going. So I remember what I was wearing. I remember how I walked in the room. I remember who I was with. I remember where the chairs were when I walked into the room. I remember the chair I sat in, where it was in the room. I remember the chair my sister sat in. I remember where the chair was placed that my mom sat in, and I remember where my dad's hospital bed sat in the room in relationship to the three chairs that my mom and my sister and I were sitting in. I remember where they kept the machine, where all the cords were hooked up to.
And I remember the conversations that we had that day because that day more than three years ago today was the day that I would hear some of my earthly father's last words. And certainly all of the details of the day still stand out to me. But more than that, what I remember are the words that he spoke to me, to my sister and to my mom.
And we had some casual conversation, but it was as though we all understood when my dad started to speak those important words, those ones that he knew would be some of his last. And I remember that as he began to say those words, my posture in the chair changed. Up to that point, I had been kind of reclined back in the chair. My legs were crossed. And when he began to speak some of those last words, I sat up straight in my chair.
And I didn't just sit up straight; I actually scooted to the edge of my chair and leaned forward. I mean, my posture went from reclining and leaning backward, kind of away from my dad, to sitting up and moving all the way to the edge of my chair and actually leaning forward toward him because I understood the weight of the words that he was speaking to us. And I certainly wanted to absorb every single word that he said, but I also wanted him to know that everything he was saying to me mattered deeply.
So I did. I leaned in and I listened very carefully because I wanted to hold on to those words. And the interesting thing is that not only do I remember his words, I remember what he said. He asked us to take care of our mom, my sister and I. He asked us to take care of mom. And he also asked us not to be sad, to which my sister said, "Dad, we are going to be sad." But it was important to him that we knew he was OK and that he knew where he was going — to be with Jesus — and he would be OK. So he wanted us to be OK.
And not only do I remember what he said ... not only do I remember every detail of that day; I still use it as sort of a filter in my life when I remember it. I remember what he said and then I ask myself, "Am I doing those things?" When I remember what he said, I think, Am I taking good care of my mom? Do I need to call her more often? Do I need to go see her? What does she need that I haven't thought about? — when I remember his words.
And you still get sad; there's nothing wrong with grief, but I remember that it was his desire for us to continue and to rest assured that he was OK so we could be OK. And as I remember his words and I think am I doing them, I then make changes in my life to line up with what I knew he wanted me to do. Because if you've ever experienced something similar with a loved one, you know that even after they're gone, you want to make them proud. You want to do what they wanted you to do. And so still all of these years later, his words are not words that I just remember. They're words that are a filter for my life. And I change my activity based on whether or not I am honoring his last words.
So that being said, today I want to spend time in John 17 because in John 17, we have — recorded — some of Jesus's last words on earth before He went to the cross. At the beginning of John 18, John begins to chronicle the betrayal, arrest and crucifixion of Jesus.
And so John 17 truly does record some of Jesus's last words on earth before He died on the cross for the sins of the world. And I want us to lean in and to listen closely to what was on our Savior's heart just before He died on the cross. And when we do, we will learn some things and possibly even receive, like I did, a filter that we can use to ask ourselves, "Am I doing this?"
So let's start in John 17:11. And in John 17, in this part specifically, Jesus is praying to His Father. And in John 17:11, Jesus prays to His Father and says, "I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one" (ESV).
I'm going to talk more about that verse, but before I do, I also want to read verses 20-23. And here is what they say. Jesus is still speaking, still praying to His Father. He says, "I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me ... and loved me" — let me read that again — "so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me" (John 17:20-23, ESV).
So you may have heard something repeated in these. I just read four verses, and there was something repeated three times in those four verses. As Jesus prayed to His Father in some of His last words on earth before the cross, three times Jesus prayed that His disciples would be one or perfectly one. So you heard me actually using the word “them” in verse 11: Jesus prays, "Keep them in your name ... that they may be one." He's praying for His disciples. And then when you go to verses 20-23, Jesus says, "I do not ask for these only" — He's talking about these disciples right here — "I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word." That is you and me.
The hours before Jesus was going to the cross, He was praying for you and for me. That baffles my mind that we were on Jesus's heart as He was going to the cross. He wasn't praying at this point about what He was about to endure. He was praying for us. And He wasn't just praying in general for us. He was praying that we would be one. He was praying for His disciples, both the ones that were there with Him in that moment but also for those who would believe in Him through their word, that we would all be perfectly one.
So let me go back and define, as I promised I would, the words “belonging” and “body of Christ.” Because when we talk about being one, we're talking about when Jesus prayed for us to be one, He prayed for His disciples to be one, for us to be one in the body of Christ and for us to belong in the body of Christ.
So one definition of “belonging” is the feeling of security and support when there is a sense of acceptance, inclusion and identity for a member of a certain group. The word “identity” is really one that I want us to focus on as we consider being one in the body of Christ and belonging in the body.
So let me go ahead now and define “body of Christ” because yes, body of Christ in Scripture can refer to Jesus's physical body, but it also describes the collective body of disciples, [the] group of disciples who believe in Jesus and find their identity in Him. So I'm going to read Ephesians 1:22-23 to give us a better understanding of the term “body of Christ.” And in Ephesians, Paul writes, “He put all things under his feet” — so He, God, put all things under His, Jesus's, feet — “and gave him [Jesus] as head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.” So Paul here uses the body of Christ to refer to the common identity that unites followers of Jesus that makes us one.
And so what I want us to glean from all of this is that our identity in Christ will always lead us to the body of Christ. And I think that's where we can get a little bit funny sometimes because we love Jesus and we desire to follow Him, but sometimes we'd really rather do it without everybody else because the reality is that sometimes people can feel like a problem. People can seem to complicate things. They can slow us down at times. And truthfully, people can cause us pain. They can do things that disappoint us, that let us down, that make us wonder why in the world they would do something like that. And so it can feel easier and possibly even seem to make more sense to follow Jesus on our own, to follow Him apart from belonging in the body of Christ.
And I did spend a lot of my life out there trying to live the Christian life all on my own. And it was this encounter with my father, my earthly father, and his last words that changed, and not just changed but transformed, my thinking on this subject because after experiencing my earthly father's last words, I understood more the weight of last words and why they're spoken.
And then I read my Savior's ... some of His last words, and I cannot ignore what was on His heart as He was about to endure the cross for me. He had me on His mind, He had His disciples on His heart, and His desire was for us to be one. And there's great purpose. Jesus added ... as He prayed, He talked about the great purpose that comes from His disciples being one and belonging in the body of Christ.
You may have caught this at the end of John 17:23. Jesus has prayed that we may be perfectly one so that the world may know that God sent Jesus and loved us even as He loved Jesus. So our pursuit of oneness in the body of Christ is a testimony to the world of the Truth that God sent His one and only Son that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.
As we wrap this up, I want to tell you one thing. I want to talk briefly about the difference between oneness and sameness because I've talked about being one in the body of Christ and how Jesus prayed for us to be one. And sometimes we can hear that and we want to lean away from it because we may translate that as Jesus saying He wants us to all be the same, and that is not what Jesus prayed for. He didn't pray for us to be the same, that we would look the same and we would say all of the same things and dress all the same ways and drive the same cars and have the same hair color. That's not what Jesus was praying for. That was not the desire of His heart.
Instead, He prayed for oneness. And with oneness ... the way I like to say it is that with oneness, unity holds hands with uniqueness. We are unified in our uniqueness because of Jesus. We are not the same. And Jesus actually spoke of the indicator of oneness. Remember, Jesus prayed that we would be one as He is one with His Father. So the example of oneness given for us is the oneness between God the Father and God the Son. And the indicator of the oneness between Jesus and His Father was that Jesus was holy and always submitted to the will of His Father.
Jesus did not pursue His own will. Instead, He was committed and submitted to the will of His Father. He said in John 6 [verse 38] — Jesus said — "I have come to do the will of My Father." He was one with His Father because He submitted entirely to the will of His Father. So for us, as we think about Jesus's last words and as we daily make choices and even as we interact with one another, we can ask ourselves in light of our Savior's last words, "Am I pursuing my will, or am I trying to do the will of my Father?"
And we can bring that into every situation. We can bring that into situations of conflict with our brothers and sisters in Christ. We can bring that into situations that we're excited about or those that we really would rather not be a part of if we didn't have to. We can ask that question on days that we feel like everything is going well, and we can ask that question on days that we feel like everything is falling apart. As we listen to our Savior's last words and desire to allow them to be a filter for our lives, we can ask ourselves, "Am I pursuing my will, or am I trying to do the will of my Father?"
The exchange I shared with my dad that day so many years ago continues to impact my life all this time later. I remember his words still. And when I do, it prompts me to ask myself, "Am I doing what he asked me to do?" It prompts me to evaluate if I'm living in a way that would please him and make him happy. As I said before, more than anything, I still want to make my dad proud. I want to do what he would've wanted me to do. In the same way [that] I cherished the last words of my earthly father, I don't want to rush past the last words of our Savior.
Today, together let's lean into our Savior's last words. Let's change our posture. Let's sit up and scoot toward the end of our chair and lean forward and listen closely and remember these words often. To love Jesus is to love what He loves. And Jesus loves His Church, and He deeply desires for us to be one, perfectly one.
Kaley Olson:
Wow, Katy, thank you so much for that teaching. I keep thinking about ... it's so much more; it lights such a deep fire within people to live on mission when there is a connection with words that are emphasized and important because that from Jesus casts such a vision for what He wanted and for what He was entrusting to us. And I so understand why we need to be one to show this unified front and show the world one giant living example of who God is and what He has done for us. Like you said, we best represent Jesus when we do it together. And I love that.
I do have a question about when we read that Jesus asked us to be one, what does that mean beyond the word “unity” or maybe beyond laying down our own will for God's will? Where do I find more details on what Jesus's expectations were for unity in Scripture?
Katy McCown:
So as Jesus prayed, He drew on the image of the Trinity. So we know that God exists in community. God in three persons: God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. So the standard, the example for oneness is the way it is displayed in God Himself.
And as I was writing She Belongs ... we go deeper into this, but here's what we can learn from the fact that oneness originates with God Himself in the form of the Trinity. And I know we don't have a lot of time to go into this, and I know it can feel like this really big idea to try to grasp, but what I can say about this right now is that number one because oneness originates with God, what we can know is that it is not something we produce in and of ourselves. I can't sit here and just be like, "I am going to go be one." It is something that God does through me by the power of the Holy Spirit that lives in me because He is the agent of oneness.
So it is our common identity in Christ that is worked out through the Holy Spirit that brings us into oneness. And so what that means for us as individuals is that we don't get up, get dressed and charge ahead into oneness. We get up and surrender to Jesus. There is a daily surrender of our agenda, of our will, of our preferences even so that He can work oneness out through us by the power of the Holy Spirit.
And I know sometimes we want to know what to do, but that really is where it begins. It's not what we go do. It is connected directly to our surrender to God and His work through us. Because He, Jesus, said ... He talked about how He is one with His Father. It originates through Him. We cannot manufacture it.
But the other thing that I want us to recognize with this concept of oneness that is originated and best exemplified through God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit is that we were created in His image, so we were created for it. When we feel lonely, we can actually allow that to be our reminder: that we've been created in the image of God, and practically we take steps by moving toward it.
There's so much I could say on oneness. But here's my favorite thing about this term “oneness.” Because when you hear “one,” you think about a singular person out there all on their own. And that's actually the most dangerous place we can be as a Christian. But oneness brings us together with other believers as one in Christ, which is the safest and strongest place that we can be.
So there's a lot to say about the Trinity and what that means in the concept of oneness, but ultimately it begins with surrendering our will and ourselves for the sake of living as one under the lordship and head of Christ as the body so that we are actually working as individuals but on a singular mission to accomplish His purposes.
Meredith Brock:
Katy, I can't help but think ... throughout this whole message honestly, I'm having flashbacks of how I felt during those awful COVID quarantine months and the years after that. And how in the beginning, early on in the whole process when we had no idea how long this whole process would take and when our children would go back to school and all that kind of stuff, the first few weeks were kind of a novelty. And then I remembered getting really genuinely lonely, even though I have three children, my husband lives in the house, [and] we had a friend living in the house with us. I was still on the computer every single day, talking to people over Zoom. And I remembered that feeling of just like, Why am I ... To be quite honest, for lots of reasons, I got very grouchy and just discontent.
And then I remember getting on the other ... getting toward the end of that process where we started trying to bring people back together. Churches started to open up again. Even at Proverbs 31, the clearest example for me and I remember this so clearly is, we had all gone remote for quite some time, and it was time for us to move back into our office space together. And I remembered telling my team — and as you were talking, this memory came back to me so vividly — I remember telling my team that worked for me at the time that ... I was like, "You guys, I get it. This feels a lot like me telling you you've gotten really comfortable on the couch and it's easy to sit on the couch and you, kind of like, getting up off the couch and me telling you it's time to go outside and go on a walk and go work out ... [it] feels really uncomfortable. But deep down inside, somewhere in your logic, in your mind, you know that that's actually what you need. You need to get up off the couch and go exercise."
And at the beginning of working out for the first time, it's really uncomfortable. It's really painful. You're sore the next day. It doesn't feel great. But after a couple weeks —
Katy McCown:
Right. You're not sure if it's worth it.
Meredith Brock:
Yeah. There's all these questions that go through your mind. Right before you go to the gym, you're kind of like, You know what? It would be way easier to ... I think I'm just going to go to Starbucks instead. You have all these internal dialogues, but the more you say, Nope, I know that this is what's best for me. I know that in a couple weeks, a couple months, my body's going to thank me for this. I know when I'm 65, I'm going to be grateful that I did this.
And as you're talking about this, you said a line early on in your teaching, where you said, "Many of us are hanging out in the participation space rather than the investment space." And I thought that was really profound because there is intentionality in moving from participation or even observation in the body of Christ to investment in the body of Christ.
And I would love for you to speak to the girl listening right now who maybe is like, "OK, Katy, I hear you. I have been in that observation, participation space and I ... right now the Holy Spirit ... my heart is pounding, and I know it's time for me to invest more." Can you tell her what does that first step ... what might it look like, and maybe help her know, give her a little bit of vision for how can you move from that place into that investing space?
Katy McCown:
I would love to. And I actually have a little story that I'm going to share. I'm going to answer this first and then share the story. But depending on where you are, there's a lot of first steps you can take. So if you are someone who has not sought out a local body of believers and found a local church with people you can gather with regularly, that is a first step, scary step, overwhelming possibly. In She Belongs, I have a whole sheet of steps to take to find that local body.
But you're going to want to think about things practically: Like if it's really far away, are you going to be committed to going? But you're also going to want to pray about where God wants you to go invest. Remember, we're not just attending or observing; it's a place where you can seek to invest what God has put into you together with what God is doing in the lives of others. So that could be a first step.
If you have already begun attending a local church, but you would still put yourself ... because we can do that; we can be committed to going to church and still be in the participation or observation space. So if that's you, you may need to take the next step of joining a small group, which also can sound ... for some I may have just said the worst thing you could possibly hear because now when you get in a small group, people can see you. They might ask you a question. And I know that can feel scary. But small groups are where you can really move into the investment space. You can serve together, you can encourage one another, [and] you can come alongside each other and carry each other's burdens. It is truly a really valuable step in belonging and in investing. So that may be you.
Maybe you're in a small group, and you've already taken that step, but you need to take one more step into investing and belonging. You need to follow the prompting of the Holy Spirit and pick up your phone and send a text message to that girl that He has put on your heart. I tell stories in She Belongs about how I asked. I asked God to tell somebody to pray for me in a really desperate time in my life. And this woman who I barely knew, weeks later, who was a Christian that I had met and just felt like was an acquaintance, came to me and said, "This may seem weird, but I have been praying for you for weeks," because she obeyed the prompting of the spirit, and she was the answer to my prayer, and I barely knew her. But we were sisters in Christ.
So there's probably someone listening, and that's you. That is not a coincidence that God is putting that woman's name on your heart, and whether you know exactly how to pray for her or what to say to her, be faithful to the investment God is asking you to make right now in the body of Christ.
But here's the other thing I want to say about when we think about taking these steps. So often we think about ourselves. We think about what I might have to lose, how it's going to affect my calendar, or how I am going to feel. And especially when we talk about the difference between investing and observing or participating.
I had this video of my fourth-grade daughter years ago in the tug-of-war championship at the elementary school. And I was a participant. I observed. From start to finish, I was able to observe this tug-of-war championship, and it was so much fun to watch. I mean, I smiled — I still smile when I think about it. I giggled. And I loved being able to observe it.
But there's a big difference between what I experienced and what those little fourth graders experienced because they all got up there. They were in the same class. They all got up there. They got on that rope together — and talk about living and acting as one — 20-something fourth graders, when the PE teacher dropped the rope, as one they leaned back with force and pulled on that rope. They dug their little heels in, they clenched their teeth, their faces were all red, and they pulled as one on that rope. And then they won as one. And all at the same time dropped the rope and started jumping up and down and celebrating.
They had the best time, and their experience was very different than mine. I observed, and I even participated some in the feelings, but I wasn't invested in the mission. I wasn't invested in the goal. And I can tell you something about all those 20-something fourth graders, that they were not all best friends. I heard the stories about the lunchroom drama and what happened on the playground. But what happened when they all came together for the common goal of winning the tug-of-war championship: none of that mattered. Nobody argued with who they were going to stand by on the rope because what they all had was a common identity. They all knew whose class they belonged in. They shared a common identity that led them to a common goal, and they worked as one to accomplish the goal. And I didn't have the same experience as them because I didn't get on the rope and pull. And they had the joy of striving together for a common purpose and then celebrating together when they accomplished it.
And so as believers in Jesus, to transfer this over, I think that we can think of it like that. We share a common identity in Christ, and therefore we have a common goal and a common mission of what we're striving to accomplish side by side — together as Paul wrote in Philippians 1 — striving side by side for the sake of the gospel.
So we can watch ... we can stand by and watch as our brothers and sisters in Christ get on that rope and pull every day, or we can go get on the rope with them and pull together in the same direction for the sake of the gospel of Christ. And when we think of it in light of that — to me, whenever I just kind of feel like I just don't feel like it today — it helps me to think about my sister who's on the rope. Maybe she's on the other side of the world, but she got up today, and she took her place on the rope, and she is pulling with everything that she has. And if I will go get on the rope and pull with her, she won't have to pull all by herself. She'll have me there pulling with her.
So sometimes it helps me to go. There might be another believer in Jesus who needs me to go get in my place and strive together with them side by side for the sake of the gospel.
Meredith Brock:
So you've given us a lot to think about, Katy, and I think I certainly needed to hear it. And I hope our listeners ... I believe our listeners needed to hear it today. And so if you're listening to this right now and you feel your heart beating and you know that you need to learn more about this concept of unity and oneness with the body of Christ and where you belong, I really want to encourage you guys to pick up Katy's new Bible study, She Belongs: Finding Your Place in the Body of Christ. It's going to be linked in our show notes if you're looking for that link. We would love for you to pick up a copy of that.
Kaley Olson:
Absolutely. And lastly, don't forget to download our free resource titled “Does God Care?: 10 Promises From God To Remember When You Feel Forgotten.” When we start to wonder where God is and what He's doing, we need to remind ourselves of what is true. And if you're listening today and recognize you not only need a community but still feel really distant from God Himself, then this is a great resource for you, especially as you're doing what Katy said and learning to surrender yourself to God first so that you can surrender yourself to the unity of the common goal that we have with our brothers and sisters in Christ. So you can download it for free by scrolling down to the link in our show notes below.
Meredith Brock:
Well, friends, that's it for today. As always, at Proverbs 31 Ministries, we believe when you know the Truth and live the Truth, it really will change everything.