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Film Curious is a movie review podcast that takes a step back from the constant media consumption to discover and ponder great films across genres and time. A podcast where we let our intrigue guide us and are not afraid to explore whatever films pique our interest.
To all you film lovers, casual theatergoers, at-home movie watchers, and streaming scrollers out there, think of Film Curious as your gateway into any and every kind of movie. One that doesn’t gatekeep but doesn’t shy away from respect for the craft either. So, take a dip, the water’s fine…
I was like 13 or 14. You know, like,
I just. Whatever.
You wore like a white bra
instead of a tan bra, you know, like,
right?
Like, we've all made that mistake
as younger people.
But I remember
that being really embarrassing, you know?
Hello and welcome to film curious.
Today I'm joined by my best friend.
Welcome, Nicole.
How are you this afternoon? Good.
I'm excited to talk.
About a movie
that I don't think I would have seen
if you hadn't brought it to my attention,
because I did not know about it at all.
So excited to be here.
Oh, well, thanks for coming on.
Yeah, the film were going to be covering
today is The Starling Girl,
and that is directed and written by Laurel
Palmetto stars
Eliza Scanlan,
Lewis Pullman and Jimmy Simpson.
And a brief overview
of what this film is about is a 17 year
old Jem Starling struggles with her place
within her
Christian fundamentalist community,
but everything changes
when her magnetic magnetic
youth pastor Owen returns to their church.
This was a film that,
I mean, I just compile lists of movies
that I need to watch,
and this was one that I had,
and, well, it's not really my fault.
I'll say that because we have this problem
where most of the time
you're not getting indie movies
at a theater near you.
Right.
So the Starling Girl had come out in 2023.
It did have a lot of acclaim
at the festivals, the film festivals.
It was doing really well,
but it was just nothing that
I was able to see anywhere near me.
So it was on one of my lists of like
a Must see
had really great reviews on it,
and then I don't think
it came to streaming
until just a little while ago.
I caught it on Netflix and I was like,
oh, you know, it
struck me right away that I was like, oh,
this was something that I wanted to see.
Now it's finally on Netflix.
So that is a way for everybody
to go see it.
And I did want to make this episode
because I was like, yeah, I want everybody
to know how good this film is.
And yes, it's three years later
at this point, but I think that I,
that I would love this filmmaker,
not that my tiny podcast can, can do much,
but I would love this filmmaker
to get recognition for this movie.
I think it is so stellar
in terms of storytelling
and even the cinematography,
the shot choices, we'll get into it.
But yeah, I just,
I think I just really wanted to
showcase this film because I watched it
and it really blew me away.
And I think what I'll say about it
to kind of get us into the conversation is
I really appreciated
her way of storytelling,
that she's not going to give you
a point of view that you should have.
Like she has an unbiased way
of telling this story.
Like, yes, we are getting the point
of view of gem
like in her situation, right?
But I don't feel like the way
she tells this story
with the camera, with the characters,
really takes a side
you know, of,
like what's right and wrong here.
And so I really just
I really appreciate that.
I think it had a really nuanced way
of telling it.
And of course, like with this sort of
story and Christian fundamentalism,
you could right away be turned off by
the religious aspect of it, the community.
But I don't think she was trying to tell
whether the, the,
the fundamentalism was.
You could tell it's wrong at times, right?
When like gem is being treated much older
than she is or then like a child.
But I think she wasn't taking.
I appreciated how the the writer
just wasn't taking a side here.
She's just, you know,
this is the way that this community
runs and kind of take it from there.
So yeah, that's
I think what I'll, I'll say to dive in.
Nicole, do you have any
like first thoughts about the film or.
Yeah, I mean, similar
to what you were just saying,
I think that did really strike me
that gems character to
is allowed that room
to just be what she is,
which is like a 17 year old girl
in maybe a situation
that's a little bit more intense
in terms of like scrutiny
and the way that she views her desires
and what she's able to do.
But I really, really liked her
transformation.
I get not her transformation,
but it was very nuanced and subtle
and from scene to scene to
and Eliza Scanlan is like, amazing.
I think we both love her,
but that she just in some just her face
that you're able to see like
so the emotions of like just pure rage
sometimes simmering underneath of her face
and then just devastation,
like there were so many moments
where she really made me cry.
And she makes you feel like
because she has talked about to how
she thinks it's funny,
she keeps getting cast as like a teenager.
I think she's 27 or 28 at this point,
but she looks so like in the movies.
She does still look.
Yeah, I mean, if she was 28 now
and she was only 25 then in this film.
Yeah. But yeah, she looks like she.
Yeah, I mean, it makes sense.
But she. Would still cast her on this.
But she just like in anything that I've
seen her in and in this movie to get that.
But then
also to get that kind of that power
and that's
I think that comes across really nicely to
is the way that she is exploring
that at that age
and figuring out
the power that she has with her sexuality.
But it is a very specific community.
So because she is in a Christian
fundamentalist
community to it's not like
with a regular teenage girl either,
where you can maybe figure it out,
you can sort of experiment.
There's like this other layer to it
that was this, like constantly
giving me this kind of anxiety
when I was watching it, too,
of how people were going to perceive her
when they found out about things
she was doing.
I think now
we gave a nice little overview.
I think I would want
to get into spoilers of this now.
So if you haven't seen The Starling Girl,
hop on a Netflix.
Go watch this.
This is definitely worth your time
because I just really want to get into
a deep dive about it.
So full warning spoilers now.
So yeah, Eliza Scanlan performance
I think is incredibly
stand out, as you were saying.
And I think, though, that the way that
the storytelling works
with the camera on certain visual choices
and framing adds
to that performance, right?
So with I notice with the camera,
we're never too far away from Jem.
You know, there's not a ton of wide shots
in this film from my memory.
And I watched it a second time
just so it was kind of fresh.
We are kind of very close with her
most of the time, and I think
that lends to Scanlon performance
because we get.
Yeah, a lot of, you know, you were saying
those those micro expressions almost.
And you know, we feel her embarrassment.
You know, we're with her
when she feels humiliated.
And again, it's just a great performance.
But also the way that the story moves,
you kind of immediately
get a grasp of like what this church is.
I think, like that's another thing
is like, it's a very established
very quickly with very few scenes.
So I think that's like a really deft way
of storytelling to write
that you can be like,
this isn't this runtime
I think is like an hour
and 45 minutes, right?
And maybe it is like fill two hours,
but she doesn't waste the director.
Laurel permit does not waste any time.
She she puts you right into that
church already.
We know somebody apologizing
because of what he did.
What kind of transgression?
This this young teenage boy must have had.
And they sent him away
to their correctional kind of summer camp
or just camp?
Yeah. To get them fixed. And.
And he has to do this humiliating thing
of having to apologize to, like, for his.
I'm putting this in quotes transgressions
because we don't know what he did.
And I'm assuming
that is probably not that bad
for our outsider point.
Of view.
I think. Did they say. What he at
one point like the boys?
They're they're talking about it.
And I think they say
that he was looking at porn
like on his parents computer or something.
I miss that detail. Yeah.
Which so which again,
maybe is not exactly what happened, but
yeah, that would be a good example
of what you're saying of like,
you probably don't need
to be sent somewhere
and we know to he's got a scar on his hand
that's some kind of physical punishment
took place.
So yeah.
So very quickly
we get that scene, then we get Jim.
And you know what?
This I felt for her in this scene
because I did not grow up
in a fundamental Christian
or even really strict Christian household.
But growing up, my my pastor
at my Lutheran church,
his wife was the leader
of the dance troupe, and she held like
dance classes and lessons,
and they would perform up on the stage
like of our of our church like that.
So like, yeah, I was having kind of like
flashbacks to those, to those days.
Right.
And so I knew immediately
like the feeling
that Jem was having of the kind of like,
you have to be so self-aware of
of who what you're wearing,
who you're being a politeness like,
no, I didn't have to worry about,
like, really what I was wearing.
But the moment.
So this hit me hard
because the moment that
a mother pulls them aside, Jem
and her mother get pulled aside
by another mother in the church
to let Jem know that her.
You can see her bra
through her dance outfit,
and you can feel Scanlan humiliation
there.
I have had that moment happen to me
in real life where like another mother had
like kind of pointed out to my mother
that you could see my bra.
Yeah, sure.
When I was young, you know,
I must have been like 13 or 14,
you know, like, I just whatever.
You were like a white bra,
sort of a tan bra, you know, like,
right.
Like we've all made that mistake
as younger people.
But I remember
that being really embarrassing,
you know, and so I could really, like,
relate to this whole,
this whole setup of the film.
Right.
So and I love that's all within
like the first five minutes
and then she meets own right.
And he's smoking a cigarette
and she's crying
and he's automatically
like somebody different.
Somebody outside
who doesn't maybe doesn't
feel the same way as his community.
Right.
So I think the setup of the film
is actually pretty brilliant
now that I think of it.
And it gets right into it
and it tells you everything
you need to know all within ten minutes.
Yeah.
The savages it
very quickly in that moment, specifically
to the first time
that we see him in the background,
he's smoking and he's like,
oh like don't tell anybody.
And she's crying.
And obviously she doesn't want anyone
to know about that either.
So like it, it is very clever
because it does also immediately
establish them both as being people
that maybe outside of the norm of
what they're supposed to be doing
and having that moment of vulnerability.
And then it does really nicely set
that up for the rest of the movie
so that it's like the two of them
have some kind of connection.
But until you were like laying it out
like that, I didn't think about it.
But you're like,
there's so much done so quickly.
Especially like
if you have no, like, understanding
of this type of community,
that it establishes
something like that, like
with the broad detail,
or maybe some people will be watching.
It would be like, what the hell?
You know, like you had
you understood that experience.
But some people, especially,
I think if you're not women in general,
maybe not growing up
and having that experience of like
attention being called to your body
for literally no reason
other than the fact that it can be
seen, was quite interesting.
And I, I Laurel permit, I guess.
Yeah, that's her name,
but I was reading that she did research.
She went to some Christian fundamentalist
communities in Oklahoma,
and she was saying
that it was really sad to her
that the women who was really clear that,
like they were taught
to view their desires as sinful.
And at first she was like,
wow, this is really backwards.
And like,
I'm glad that I didn't grow up like this.
But then the more she thought about it,
she was like,
then I realized how much I did relate
to them, actually, because she's like,
I did have experiences
where society taught me how to think
about my body or brought attention
to my body in a certain kind of way.
It wasn't exactly the same,
but that she was like, oh, actually,
I can connect with this.
Yeah, I mean, surprisingly,
and I guess you see that too, right?
I mean, I've had like some,
some like youth
Christian stuff that like is reminiscent
but nowhere near it.
But yeah,
I think she did a good job of being like,
we might think of this type of community
as totally out there, but like,
here are the connections
to a coming of age.
Like, you know,
I think this is a really good
coming of age story, too,
because I think a lot of it
is gems figuring out
like what she has control over
and making decisions for herself,
which is very hard in her community.
So there's that aspect
that I really appreciated.
I really appreciated little details
of, you know, things being sinful. Right.
So like every time I notice
every time that gem was kind of either
had just been thinking about own or
had an interaction with own or experience,
but then, you know, the next scene or two,
she wasn't with him or something.
She was eating junk food.
She is like a constant, like
it was almost like the junk food was like
a replacement for her for sex spots
and her like her bad thoughts.
But she needed like, some kind of, like,
you know, stimulation still.
Yeah.
And so, yeah,
I found that really interesting that she,
you know, she would be eating
some kind of junk food if it was like,
it was like Cheetos or donuts
or really anything.
And you could,
you could tell that she would heavily rely
upon like something to eat if,
if she did have, if she had a
sinful again in, quote, sinful
thought or lustful thought.
And so I thought that was a really great
little detail
to another thing
that I think is just brilliant
is the idea of gem
goes into, I guess it's like a lake
or a preserve, some kind of bayou type.
Some kind of area.
Yeah. Some kind of body of water.
I mean, they're in Kentucky.
They say they're in Kentucky.
So like, I'm trying to think of like,
what body of water
is in Kentucky that they could be in.
But I like that she well, we'll talk about
I'll touch on this briefly.
And then I think we
I do want to talk about the,
the sex scene or the first sex scene
because there's something really,
you know, unnerving about it.
And I think it was handled really well.
But immediately when she feels like dirty,
she goes to this body of water,
this lake preserve, whatever it is
to, like, cleanse herself, you know, like
she it's almost like she needs like,
you know, the holy again, the holy water
and putting in quotes,
sort of things like the, the baptism
right to free her of her her sins.
And she, she does that twice.
And it's kind of
and we get the two very different
moments of, you know, when she does it
after her one has sex with her,
and then she does it again
with the younger brother.
So the younger brother named Billy.
I think it's Ben.
What's his name?
Ben. I'm like.
It's one that would make more sense
then makes more sense in.
Yeah. He plays Ben Taylor, Austin Abrams.
I recognize him from a couple of things.
Actually.
This is such a tangent.
Oh, he was just in weapons.
Yeah, that's what happens.
Yeah, yeah. He's a druggie in weapons.
Yep. Okay.
So. Yeah.
So then the younger brother
in the courting.
So if you're listening to this
and you did not watch this darling girl
just so you have
and you're you are fine with spoilers.
This is just so you have an idea of
what the hell is going on in the movie.
Ben, the younger brother of Owen,
both pastor's
sons, is courting Eliza's
Kaitlyn's character, Jim.
It's not really by her choice.
It's kind of like a forced upon
her thing and like, courting,
I guess is like dating, but not really.
It seems almost like a given that
these two will wed after their quoting.
I guess we'll just keep saying courting.
I keep putting things in quotes
if you're just listening and not watching,
because I think that courting
is such a weird.
It's a weird thing, but it seems like a
like I mean, it's
a good thing, like from a,
but it's such a weird old timey
like thing that like, we know courting is
courtship is meant for wedding somebody.
But anyway,
she has this one scene where Owen
follows her into the water immediately
after he has sex with her,
and I'm saying he has sex with her because
I don't really think it's consensual.
And that's why, like,
we can get into that aspect of it, right?
Owen
follows her into the water afterwards
and she doesn't want to be touched.
She's like, kind of leave me alone.
But then she kind of gives in to him
and goes, okay, you know, I do.
You know, I do want this kind of,
I guess is a decision she comes to.
Right?
And then she does it again
later on in the film for her.
She's I mean, they're not found out yet,
but they're close to it, right.
Like owns like we got to stop this
because, you know,
it's it's getting too close for comfort.
Now I think people are going to be.
No, your little sister knows like
this is not good.
So he's ignoring her.
She kind of has a mental break,
which who wouldn't?
After all the things that happened,
the sequence of events that happened. So.
Many where where, like, dad's in a coma
for taking too many pills
and his drinking problem and and Owen's
now, you know, breaking up with her.
And she's forced to bring her
younger siblings
to this church gathering
when her father is.
We don't we don't know.
She doesn't know if her father
is going to be waking up or not.
And like this responsibility to act like
it's all okay
and go be a part of the community.
And that's like the second time
that she runs into the water.
After Owen is dismissing her and Ben,
the younger brother, follows
her in and tries to be like, it's okay.
Are you okay?
And this is like the change in the scene
where
he thinks it's playful at first, right?
And then it's very clear that Jim is like,
no, I'm not,
I'm not fucking playing around.
And like basically ducks his head
under the water to almost drown him.
Right?
Yeah.
And I just really like that,
that there's the early scene in the film
of with Owen
and then the later scene with Ben,
and you could see like the change in like,
no, I'm not going to say yes to things
that I'm not comfortable with anymore
or I'm not okay with this. Right.
So I just
I really liked that kind of cyclical.
It's not cyclical.
I think that's not the right word
I'm looking for.
It's a change from its
using the same scene in different ways.
And I think that's brilliant.
Yeah.
I like in that scene to how it's
all those things are happening.
She tries to talk to own
and he's like get.
And she says something to about like my
like she's trying
to tell him to about like
like my dad might be dead.
You know like something
she's reaching to him for comfort
and he like physically it was like,
get away from me, you know?
And then the dance troupe comes in
because that also her dad,
right beforehand, he knew that
she had lied when she goes and she's with.
Oh, and and she has to hide
at his house in the bathtub,
which is another terrible for.
Yes, very.
I was very much thinking,
okay, the hands over the mouth to.
But her dad's like, no,
forget about dance troupe.
So then she's there
and then the dance troupe comes out
and she's watching them,
and that's when she gets this
look on her face, and she marches off
and runs into the water.
And she does keep saying like, no,
I want to be alone.
I want to be alone. I want to be alone.
I think to I took that scene
because when the first one happens
with Owen as well, like when she runs
off, it's when then it's like after
he's had sex with her and then she's
kind of trying to climb on top of him
and be like a little bit more, you know,
like maybe more of, like the aggressor
trying to initiate something after.
And he he's like, oh, okay.
Like, you know, like, hold on.
You know, and then she gets
this look on her face again.
And then she kind of storms
out of the car.
So that I think it's also partially it's
like she's feeling these intense emotions
and nobody's letting her feel them,
like even in that moment, too.
And I think there's a lot of moments
like that throughout the story.
I appreciate how she treats
the own
character,
how we're supposed to receive him.
And that is one of those moments
where I think it shows that he
where he's supposed to be different
from everybody, and she thinks like, okay,
this is something just for me, and there's
just someone who understands me,
but that in many ways he is like
everybody still in the community
where she can't fully be herself or,
you know, like it's like,
okay, like, calm down.
You know, like just in that moment
where she, she's getting a little bit
like she's wants to like,
you know, she's excited to be.
Hurt herself, control
something, have some controls,
have like a decision made in this process.
Yeah. Well she's actually a part of it.
And she's just going along with him
leading her.
And he's like, you know, like,
just calm down, you know?
Or like, this is kind of like,
okay, that's too much like,
let's just like sit here now
and then with the dance troupe to like
when she sees them
and everything's happening,
I feel like she's got all these emotions
of, like, where she's just like,
I'm so sad and I'm so angry
and I'm so scared
and everybody, I'm supposed to just act
like none of this is actually happening.
And then,
yeah, Ben is going to come chase after me.
Ben who I guess I'm supposed to marry,
but I can't even talk to.
I can't even have, like, there's.
No connection there.
And then, like, yeah, it does show, too.
Like, even though they are the same age,
there's a huge maturity difference
between Jim and Ben, you know.
Yeah.
And I think that's another thing
that this I'll touch on this
since we already touched on this,
I think that the filmmaker did a really
good job of handling the sex scene.
And I think it makes it like
if you had to, like, teach somebody like
what consent is, I would kind of show them
this scene where, like Jim says nothing.
The whole interaction happens, right?
They start kissing.
You can tell that she kind of
doesn't really know what's going
on, I would assume, like
she doesn't even know what's going on.
Even more, because of the
the Christian fundamentalist background.
Yeah, she doesn't say anything.
Even, you know, when he
I guess
he takes off her underwear and penetrates
and you can just tell that she's like,
oh no, this is I don't like this.
You know, she's you could tell that
her face is like, this is painful.
And I think that it's like
a really good example of like,
this isn't consent,
you know, especially him
being the older man and her being 17.
I think that right there
kind of shows, you know, I don't know,
maybe somebody else could watch this
with like less emotional intelligence
or something or less empathy and be like,
well, she didn't say no.
But I think that this scene
was a really good example of
like the difference between consent
and no.
There was no like verbal like,
yes, please do this.
Yeah, I, I think too, I as
I was writing notes as I was watching
and I wrote something down
that was just like, no, I don't like this.
No, he's bad.
Like he's just because I was watching it.
Not sure about like how this character
is going to be portrayed.
And I feel like seen enough things by now.
Read some stuff.
I just read a book
by Jeanette McCurdy that focus.
It's called Half His Age, and it focuses
on a 17 year old and with her teacher.
And like, there's a lot in that book
two about like, the power that she has
or how she, like, you know,
goes after a relationship with him.
But I appreciated about that book.
And I think the same thing
happened in year two where it's not like,
oh, okay, this is completely bad,
you're completely good.
And but when I was watching this movie up
until that point, you know,
like when Owen kissed her,
they're clearly getting closer together
and you know that that's not right.
I wasn't feeling like,
you know, like, oh, okay.
He's a predator,
you know? Anything like that?
Yeah. No. You don't feel that way about.
Oh, and I think, yeah,
she does like a good job about like.
No, like he's not an awful person
and no, he's
I know he is
I guess predatory in that scene.
But there are a lot of scenes
where he's not and there's a lot of like,
yeah, I think she just handles like the,
the nuances of being a person.
Well. Yeah.
And like,
I don't I don't think Owen is terrible.
I think he is stunted,
mature, maturity wise.
I think we find out that,
like being forced into an early marriage
when you don't know who you are
and how to behave
is not helpful in your, like,
maturation process.
You know, like,
that's not a helpful thing.
Yeah.
To being, like, helping you process
being eventually being an adult.
Because then, you know,
there are times where Owen just,
like totally skirts responsibility
all the time, right?
Like, so he clearly like
has he's a bit stunted.
So yeah, I think that, you know,
she does a good job of being like,
no, he's not terrible.
But at the same time he doesn't know
how to take responsibility.
And he is a full grown man
who knows to take her ability for his.
Actions or that I.
Also, I think then
she also does a really good job of
putting you in gems perspective, because
in that
scene where he has sex with her, like,
I think that moment where I was like,
no, like, I don't, I don't like this.
I was kind of surprised,
I think, along with her, because I
was surprised by how it kept going
and how nothing was being set.
I didn't think that he was just
going to be
that aggressive,
and I don't know, I was expecting,
I think probably,
maybe what she was expecting in her mind,
you know, like when she's thinking about
and like you said, to like she doesn't
really probably know
that much actually just about sex,
but that she maybe had a vision
in her mind of what it would be like.
And then it's really just going very fast.
He's not checking in
with her in a car in the dark.
And it's just it's probably not at all
what she would be able to verbalize
that she wanted or what she envisioned,
where this whole relationship was leading.
And then once it does happen,
then we get that scene
like where she does go into the water,
and there are a lot of scenes like that
where I think then the filmmaker
is making you aware of her age
without having to point it out too much,
where it's just like, it's okay, you know?
Like whenever he does mess up,
you know, where it's like, no, it's okay.
You know? Like where she wants
to make him feel better.
She wants to be like, oh, okay.
And so she just goes along with it.
Which I think you're right
that it's a great trajectory
by the end of the film that she's like,
no, it's not okay.
I'm not going along with it.
And I will kill. I'll kill you.
Maybe. Actually.
Right.
And I
think that she does a really good job.
This movie does a really good job
of being on that precipice
of being a girl and not a not a woman.
Yet, you know,
there are so many times where, like,
I know, growing up
just out of college or just, you know,
senior year of high school and you're kind
of, yeah, you're going to be like,
oh, you know, I can flirt.
I can make
these decisions, these actions that are
maybe more are bigger
than my age or older than I actually am.
And I pretend to be.
And I think that, like,
kind of this film captures a lot of, like,
that weird in-between time
where like, you feel confident enough
in, in your soon to be womanhood,
but you're not ready for it.
Like you're not ready to be a woman.
You are just a girl,
no matter how much like you know, she
Jem would make certain decisions of like,
oh, I am going to pursue him.
I am going to get into this relationship.
I am gonna be a part of this.
But a lot of the times
it's like, yeah, but then you see like,
oh no, that was
she's kind of almost confused about like,
I'm playing a role of I'm told that I'm
a woman or I'm about to be a woman, right?
Yeah.
I take care of my younger siblings.
I am being courted. I'd like to wed.
You know,
there's all these different things.
Like the responsibility, you know,
she has with her mother.
Even the relationship
she has with her mother
is a lot.
A lot of times it is peer to peer, almost,
you know, like her mother expects her
to handle the problems of her father
as if she was a fully mature adult.
So. And then even
taking care of her father,
noticing things that her father is doing
these all very adult
things that are put on to her.
But then you see, with a lot of
other things that she's like,
she's just a girl, right?
Like she cares about dance.
She she has crushes.
She's looking through her, you know, youth
pastor, the, the, the book
that she gets from like, I think like her
summer camp or something like that.
And she's like looking at his picture
on picture as a youth pastor in it.
And like, that's a very girlish thing
to do, you know, like,
you know, to pull up, like, their picture
and, like, kind of crush on them.
Right?
I was like, things you do that
you just don't do when you're older.
Like, even if you do have a crush
when you're older, it's like, you're not.
I mean, I don't know,
maybe it's different.
Maybe I am like, just am showing
how I'm like, not with the like,
social media scene of like maybe like,
you know, looking them up on social.
I don't know if I was that way ever.
But yeah, like there's
just like girlish things that she does.
Even like getting upset when Owen's wife,
who is looking over the dance
troops routine
because it has to be approved
by one of the old, one of the women
in the community since they have no like
adult dance instructor, leader, and now
gems take it upon herself to become it.
Or Owens told her she could be and
that like
the insult that she takes from her
from Owens wife
kind of being like, no, that moves
a little bit too individualistic or that,
and she doesn't take like the
the critique very well.
She doesn't like that
her performance is getting changed.
And I would say that that's a very,
almost girlish reaction to like, yeah,
a lot of people will get their feelings
hurt if their work is picked apart.
But like as an adult,
you can kind of manage those emotions.
Right.
And Jem really can't, you know,
she immediately goes out and keys.
Are the. Ones, the wife's car.
So and again,
like, yeah, that's just like
the recklessness of youth, right?
Like the, the immediate I can't manage
my emotions or my reactions.
I go do something stupid.
Yeah.
Not that I mean, the past.
The youth pastor's wife, always wife.
Like, she doesn't deserve any of this.
But I can tell you I don't like her.
But that's just that has nothing to do
with, like, the character.
I just think that, like, we're
probably made not to like her
because we're kind of in gems
point of view here.
Yeah.
So yeah, it's that weird.
Like, I think that's what I like.
This movie handles like coming of age
really well.
Yeah, I think also there's a line in there
that she says sometimes like,
and I think it's, it's delivered
so well by Eliza Scanlan
or just the way in that scene
where she's trying to keep it together
and be like, okay, and be respectful.
But she's so furious
and it's multilayered, obviously,
because one like her art
is being criticized, but to
this is the wife of the man that she's
saying in her mind that she's in trouble
is, yeah, that she is jealous
and she just is upset about that too.
But she says, like, okay,
I'll just kneel like the rest of you.
Like the way that she says it,
like we'll like the rest of you then
because they're all looking up at her
and that
that's something to that when she goes
and she sees Owen, that he says.
That made me laugh, though, right away
he's like, did you?
He misses.
And then the way she reacts to
which is very almost like,
she's like, I'm sorry.
I'm really sorry.
You know, like and then they just
kind of push through it.
But there were a lot of times in the movie
where it
then suddenly made me uncomfortable
when it was like, oh, okay.
She's so young, like she's so young.
And especially scene
like when she things are falling apart
and he is like, we have to stop, you know,
and you see the pain
in the way that Scanlan plays that too,
where you see that like she really,
really believes to like in her mind.
And that that too,
I think is because of that age
that if she was older,
she wouldn't think like,
okay, this is meant to be,
this is going to work out.
You know,
like God wants us to be together,
that she really thinks that
and she really thinks that.
He thinks that
and is very genuinely surprised
that he's not just going to go
tell everybody,
oh, we're in love
and we're supposed to be together.
I'm not supposed to be with my wife,
that she seems really surprised
and just genuinely hurt by that
because she thought,
okay,
we are on the same page with you were.
Yeah, we're in this together.
And it's and you know,
it doesn't help that like yeah.
Oh and and I will say this was a very good
performance by Lewis Pullman.
Like yeah I think when he's like trembling
when shit's like hitting the fan.
Not that I've ever been
in that kind of situation,
but you know,
like there's that the nervousness of like,
I'll fuck like and you see his anxiety
and he's like literally vibrating like he
his performance shows
that he's vibrating basically with nerves.
But it also just shows like I don't know
Lewis well, not Lewis.
Oh, and like, are you full of shit?
Because you did tell her, you know that.
You know, I think this is God's choice.
You know, basically that I shouldn't
be with my wife.
You know, this is a sign.
This is also another thing
that's like, side note,
Christianity is always whatever
people want it to be.
Like.
It just changes, like whenever, like.
And I do think that that was like
a subtle undertone kind of throughout
the film is that it was really like
whoever decided each character
had their own relationship with religion
and what it meant,
where like gem kind of
has this idea that like,
how could love be bad when like,
Jesus is love and, you know, kind of like,
yeah, I guess it is like a younger
ideal of it too, of like, oh, I love him.
How, you know,
if I love somebody this much,
it must be God, you know,
because that's what I've been taught.
God is love, right?
So, like, she kind of has a very pure,
even childlike
way of thinking of her religion.
I would argue she is the healthiest view
of her religion.
Of everyone in the film and.
Of everyone in the film.
Yeah.
So but but yeah.
So it's like Owen uses
whatever he wants for his,
you know, chooses, however,
to look at his,
however, to look at his version
of Christianity that suits him.
Yeah. Same with the pastor.
Same with the mother.
Same with the father, same with Jem.
So this is just a funny note there
that, you know, I think there is a
little bit of like, you know, religions,
whatever you want it to be, sort of.
Yeah.
It changes. Yeah.
Throughout the, the movie
that when it seems like
he wants to be
justifying to himself into her,
this is okay, you know, because she's,
she's the one that says to him
two, multiple times like, you're married,
you know, like, what about your wife?
That making himself and her made me feel
better about like, okay, but we're not.
So we don't even like each other,
you know, and us watching it as an adult,
we're like, okay, so you don't like
your wife doesn't mean, yeah.
Go sleep.
Like what?
Like arguably rape.
A. 17 year old. Yeah.
Yeah.
That it's clear that he has the power.
But when he says that in one scene
and then, you know, later
when they're found out, his dad saying
like, well, Owen says that, you know,
gem brought him to sin
and then he he during the
when she used to tell everyone at church,
he says that he forgives her
to, you know, like,
and then she's so upset after that.
Yeah. That and he can't even.
Look her in the I know. Yeah.
That's a rough moment where I'm like,
that's a, that's a punch bowl.
You want to punch that guy in the moment.
But he also, like you mentioned before,
he feels then very young.
Sometimes he feels younger than she is
just emotionally in that way
where he then you see like
it's like,
oh it's just another disappointing boy,
you know,
that can't say actually how he feels
or stand up to his father or speak about
how his connection to his faith
and that Jeremiah, the way
that she is connected to her faith to
is she also, I think, through dance.
And that's definitely
a big part of the movie.
That that is something that she's
continually made to feel bad about.
And it's always about like, is it for God?
Is it for vanity?
Too much focus on the individual
when misused, critiquing the dance like,
I know you didn't try and draw attention
to your legs, but you know.
That was a wild
that's like one of those things
where it's like, yeah, I did not grow up
strict.
Christian. No,
I. Felt the frustration while.
You know, in that scene
because every time you could tell
that she was going to stop them
and be like, okay, but this
and especially something
where it's like dance as an art form,
like it is your body, it is you drawing
attention to certain, like.
Right, the. Movement of your body.
So like when she's not able
to do that too,
I think it's also she knows that
like that's wrong.
I, I think a large part of that
is like why she starts
maybe having thoughts of like,
maybe this isn't right.
You know,
you can see her gears kind of turning
sometimes of like, is this really like,
I'm not allowed to dance
the way that I want to dance, you know?
And also
that she's made to feel so shameful,
as if she's doing some kind of as like
they treating her like
you can see her bra, or she moved her legs
slightly while she's dancing,
like she's
stripping in front of everybody,
you know, like it's
just any little things, like
that's that level of intensity that maybe
not everybody that comes to the film
has that,
but definitely that feeling of being made
to feel ashamed and just bad too, about
like what you want actually.
And you can tell that she really
that's so important to her.
She wants to dance,
that even when everything happens to her
terrible things in her life, getting that
taken away from her, it seems like,
sends her kind of over the edge.
Yeah. For sure.
And then, yeah,
you get these full circle details
making their way through the film,
which I really appreciate, is,
you know, she when she's talking to her
dad, you get you get the details of
oh he you know used to live a quote
unquote, you know, simple life.
You know, before he individualistic life,
before he turned to
Jesus and the Lord saved him.
And he was in a band
and he loved music and he but he only
wrote songs about, like, his struggles.
And that was the problem. Right?
And, you know, she talks about a bar
that he would play at with his band,
and we get the detail of like, he's
kind of turned to drinking again or not.
Kind of.
He does turn to drinking again
after one of his friends commit suicide.
An old friend, I think it was a bandmate
from his past commit suicide
and that kind of unravels her father.
So she's
kind of finding out through his drunken,
these drunken conversations with him
at night, in the wee hours,
like when she's coming back from Owen.
That he's really struggling with
maybe his his choice in life,
or maybe he just doesn't, you know,
we don't know exactly.
We don't get a lot, you know,
from the father, but clearly he's
going over his past and reminiscing
and thinking about it,
which leads her to question
it and learn more about her father.
And then she kind of
has that connection with her father,
you know, this, this art form
that she loves doing,
but she can't really do it
the way she wants to do it because,
you know, it's she's not doing it
the right way to praise God.
So but then we get the oh,
there's so much to go through.
I don't want to go. I don't want to.
I have like the instinct
to go chronologically,
but I think that's not valuable.
And in this review review.
So I apologize
if I'm, I start jumping around a lot
where she finds her dad's iPod
in his jacket that she brings with her
when, you know, she runs away with Owen
for that brief moment
and she listens to one of his songs,
which Nicole actually looked up
the which was smart of her.
That's why she's here.
The band who did the song that they used
that is supposed to be, you know,
the father's band, ace up my sleeve song.
What's the name of that?
The band that they got to do. That Lord
Huron. Okay.
And that sounds great.
I really I really enjoyed that song.
She kind of listens to it and it's like,
I think it makes her feel
obviously connected to dad, but also like
it makes her realize that she wants more.
And this kind of
what the song is saying to that.
Like, I don't want to play the cards
I've been dealt, you know,
I want to play a totally different game
that I've been told I can play.
And that kind of then
triggers her to be like, what am I doing?
Like running away with it? And yeah.
And then then it leads us to that,
that circle moment
of being at the bar
that her dad used to play at in Memphis,
and then finally getting to dance
the way she wants to dance like she's
she has the freedom to do
the routine that she was doing, you know,
that she wanted to do, basically,
because you see those movements in there.
And I thought that was
I really enjoyed the film,
the ability
to lay out these little details
and then bring it all together,
you know, like they weren't
just put there for no reason.
We come back to them. Yeah.
Even that something.
I didn't think
we were going to return to that.
Like when she started driving to,
I thought she was going to go home
or go see her dad at the hospital or.
That moment. Yeah.
So I really did think that was a great way
to end the movie,
where she goes to that bar
and she remembers
from when they talked about it,
and he is drunk.
And I like that about those scenes
to where, you know, he
he would realize if he wasn't in that way
that she's been out.
Like, where has she been?
Even, you know,
like when he has that moment
when he says he can't be a dance troupe
and he knows that she lied
about where she was and he hits her.
You can tell when later, he apologizes
before he odds that
really, his anger
is probably coming from at himself
because he knows, like,
I've not been your dad.
Like I haven't been here.
I haven't been watching out.
So I don't know where you've been.
Actually, I like that
in their relationship.
That no matter what was going on, that
that was the person that she could go to
for that art connection.
And he has that line in there
where he says, if I ask you
to give something up
so that you have more room for him,
that you have more room for God.
And I like that that too,
where it's not like
you don't get that
where he sticks up for her
or has a turnaround or is like,
you know, you don't have to marry Ben.
Like,
you know,
he just kind of goes along with it,
but you know, that he feels bad,
like he's very he doesn't feel like right
about it, forcing her into something
that she clearly does not want to do.
So his character to was just.
And I forget what his name
Jimmy Simpson, I think maybe.
Yeah, he's great too.
Yeah.
Though he's from Westworld
is what I recognize him from.
Yeah, I think that relationship
was handled really well.
I mean, even like the mother daughter
relationship, I think that this film is a
masterclass in character development
or even like,
just like presenting
well-rounded characters without us
really needing to know
a whole lot about them, you know?
And they're not stereotypes, but like,
it's just the film gives us everything
we need to know about the characters
in in that small amount of time.
You know, it's she interacts with each
I mean, even the mother,
we can kind of get a sense that, like,
she's just trying to hold things together.
She's an email about the father have,
you know, having a drinking problem again?
But then we do see moments of,
I'm just trying to protect my daughter.
There are moments that, like,
I find the moment
really interesting about the mother is
when she's sitting with the pastor
and gems getting reprimanded
for this relationship with Owen,
which meanwhile, like the pastor,
will take no responsibility.
You know, like we said, for his son's
action.
Like she,
you know, she's the pastor saying
gems been seduced by the devil
and having sinful thoughts
that is causing her
to have this relationship with Owen.
And Owen was seduced by her sinful
lusting after him.
Right.
So he won't take any responsibility
for his son's behavior,
which is like ridiculous.
But we have that one instance
where gems mother goes,
your son,
you know, had something to do with it to.
I don't know the exact line, she says,
but she she
slips into, you know,
she slips it in that like,
Owen was a part of this as well,
when all the blame is going to Jim.
And I thought that
that was a really telling thing
that like,
maybe there's there's hope for the mother.
Yeah.
Like that.
She just doesn't always just go along
with the community, what they say.
Yeah.
And, you know, if you look into it
a little bit more, you go,
oh, well,
you know, maybe that makes sense.
She did fall for
I mean, maybe he did turn to God
before they met the father and her.
But I think that that shows
that this family
isn't really adhering to the society
or they're not like
they're not enjoying every aspect of it,
or not very good at adhering to this.
And that even reminds me of the detail
of when the sister catches her.
Oh. Yeah,
coming out of the window of the bedroom.
After nearly being caught at Owen's house,
she escapes through the bedroom window
and her little sister is there.
And I love that moment where, like,
we pause, the camera pauses on
both of them for a bit of like,
what are we going to do here?
It was like
it was like, oh shit.
Like, are you going to say anything?
Like it was both sisters
kind of like looking back and forth
at each other, being like,
what are we going to do?
Like decisions were going to have
to be made in that in those milliseconds,
those seconds.
But I think that even tells you to that
the little sister just doesn't
automatically go to rat out her
big sister.
And, you know, maybe a lot of siblings
would do that, but I'm not sure,
like maybe in this kind of community,
if she was already fully indoctrinated
into the
this kind of way of thinking,
she would immediately rat her sister out.
But I think that's telling of the family
dynamic too.
Yeah, I like the detail to the when
she asks to tell everybody at church like,
I'm sorry and I'm sinful and stuff
and, you know,
he says, does anyone want to come up
and offer her forgiveness like this?
Sister immediately
makes a beeline and hugs
her and is like, I forgive you, you know?
And you can see in that
the actress of the place is Sister Becca.
To do such a great job.
Like you can see that
when they give shots of her
that it's it's hard for her to watch her
sister be up there and is obviously, like,
so mortified.
So as soon as he says that,
she just, like, runs to her right away
and it's like, I forgive you.
But yeah, it seems like everybody I mean,
with the dad too, and the like, it's
the community.
It's not serving anybody
that it's with the mom
and the dad too, that you can see, like
they're not able to communicate,
I guess, in some kind of way.
Right.
The same way in a different
but similar. How?
It's like Owen and his wife and he's like,
we've never liked each other, you know,
that they were probably paired up young,
but they're not able to talk, really.
They're not able
to be honest about things.
So everybody is just suffering
in different ways and we don't know
what would have what happens after Jim
maybe then
leaves the bar, but I do.
I would like to imagine that
maybe eventually, like you're saying, like
maybe the whole family realize, like,
this is just not good for us,
you know, like,
we gotta we gotta figure something out.
But I love
when her mom punched own in the face to.
That was a great
yeah, I know that was not a smack I did.
Yeah. When she, like, just.
Clocks him that is it's I that was another
like little detail of like.
Yeah you could have easily gone
to the mother's maxim.
Right. Like yeah right.
That would be the normal thing.
But she like it's a wind up full on
and she does like.
Get away from her.
Yeah.
He's, she's bloodied him and he and
she doesn't react in terms of like her.
She doesn't like shake her fists
or anything like that.
She, you know, decks him
and like goes after him.
And I think that that also just showed
a little bit of like
the mother understanding
that it wasn't Jim.
Yeah.
You know,
I think that was her kind of her way
of being like, this isn't all your fault.
Even though she said some really awful,
mean things to her daughter to start.
But I think there's like,
underlying things there
that we see
that the mother is a little bit more
empathetic or sympathetic
to her daughter, then she lets on.
Yeah.
So and I guess that's another reason.
Reason why, you know, the film is titled
The Starling Girl, right?
Like it's not it's not titled gem.
It's not titled Jim Starling.
That'll be a terrible title
if you just used her name.
But but I think that I think
that it is supposed to kind of
when you're, when you're using
a family's name
to associate
with, like the one bad egg or whatever.
And I don't think
it's supposed to show bad.
I think that, like in general,
it just gives the family,
an outsider status already,
you know, that they're
that they're using the family's last
name to describe her
because I'm not sure if, like, she was,
she was being good or being like
the ideal, whatever they wanted her to be,
you'd be using the family's name.
I don't know, I'm just going on, like,
a little bit of my brain's
kind of moving faster than my.
My thoughts are able to express about,
like, that idea.
But I feel like when you're using
a family's last name, it's usually like.
And you're specifying
the one girl you're already kind of like,
oh, you know, the Starling family,
you know?
Yeah.
Or put in my mind, like,
you don't want to be like that, Starling.
Or it gave me that feeling of gossip.
Yeah.
And just attributing her to her family,
again, to not to focus on the individual,
which comes up again and again
in the movie, but her being defined by.
Yeah, her family that she's a member
of the family, she's one of their girls.
So I think brilliant movie.
And then I guess to kind of end
the discussion on it.
I know Nicole touched on it
briefly about like,
we don't know what
she's going to end up doing.
Were you surprised that Owen comes back?
Yes, I come. To get.
That was
that was a surprising turn of events.
For me. I was like,
I was not expecting. It, I wasn't.
I know how she. Was going
to get out of the camp thing.
Going to the camp?
No, I didn't expect him to come back.
And then after the mom punched him, like,
I don't think I expect
to her necessarily to then jump in the car
with him.
With him. Yeah.
And then she's so excited, but I did.
That works
very beautifully then to transition into
when she realizes, like,
I don't think I want this either.
You know, when she prays again
and she's like,
just let me be content, you know, like,
I just can't even be happy. But
you can see, like, she just, she realizes,
like, this is just not what I want.
But the fact that he does come back,
it was very, very surprising.
Yeah.
I thought he had totally been like,
I got I got caught
not going to take responsibility
for my actions now.
And yeah.
And I'm going to, you know, pretend
like this was never my idea and I never
really had anything to do with it.
And I'm a golden boy, you know,
I really didn't think again,
I think it makes Owen's character
a little bit more sympathetic, you know?
Yeah. He's not a total monster.
He's not like,
oh, well,
I just got the sex that I wanted from
this girl, and I have no feelings
about what I did.
Yeah, I.
Think I do think he works that tightrope.
He does.
I mean, I think it's also that he
he says, you know, that he can't lose her.
Like he says, like, you know, like you're
the only one that sees me
that that's a big part of it, too.
Like that.
Genuinely, both of them
feel stifled in the community,
and they don't
feel like they can be there.
So that I do believe,
like when I'm watching the movie, that
he can let his guard down and be himself,
but he's also being selfish in that way
where he's not thinking about
what probably is best for her.
Right? No.
And there's there's one moment too,
that really stuck in my head.
It speaks to her age,
but also is just like one of those moments
where it seems like she's kind of like,
like,
okay, I don't want you to then
just have me be what you want me to be.
You know, he's like, well, you could live
anywhere in the whole world.
And she's like, I like Kentucky.
Like, I like my sisters in the forest.
And he kind of laughs and he's like,
you just have no idea
what you're talking about.
And you can kind of see in her face,
you know, that, like just, you know.
But then also we get from his perspective,
we're like, yeah.
Like, well, she's never been anywhere,
you know,
like that again to where it's like, okay,
well what do you want her to say?
Like she's 17
and you know where she lives.
Like,
you know a lot of things.
But I agree that I think that
it really would have been easy
to make a one full tilt, like,
just kind of leave that character
and he leaves her in the lurch,
but he does come back, and then he does
seem like he's the kind of committed,
at least in that moment, to the plan
that he's going to sell the car
and they're going to go off,
and that she doesn't want to do that.
And it's another moment again, where
I feel like it is kind of similar to like
we see the same sort of scene
in different ways that it used to be
that she sneak out
in the middle of the night to go see him,
and then I like
how she sneaks out to get away from him,
that she sneaks away
in the middle of the night
and gets the keys and leaves him.
Right.
And yeah, that we don't
we don't know if she leaves the bar,
if she'll go back to him,
go run away with him,
if she'll go home, if she goes home, then
if she has to go to that camp,
what her mother's going to say.
Like.
But I
think that when I do envision it, it's
that even if she does eventually end up
going back there, that she, through
these experiences, has had that moment
of realizing, like, I don't think that
this is the rest of my life.
I don't think this is the way
that I want to also practice my faith
and definitely like ending it
in that scene of appreciating, like, I am
at this bar where my dad was himself
practicing his art,
and now I am dancing exactly who I want to
with no one telling me how to.
That it is like a hopeful it does leave
you place,
even though you're like
you still got to deal with all these
things, but after that, you know,
but that she is just so at peace,
that you feel genuinely happy for her.
And yeah, and she's definitely learned
something, you know, like she knows
she's taken more control of
of the decisions
that she's going to make going forward
and what she wants.
So yeah, really lovely film, man.
I think it deserves a hell
of a lot more talking credit than I mean,
I guess it was a little darling
at the festivals,
but it's just a shame
that not a lot of people have seen this
and it's just been,
you know, it's an on Netflix.
So if you haven't seen it,
I know it's ridiculous to say after this,
you know, hour long conversation.
And if you're into while listening to
just spoilers and then watching a movie.
Yeah, I think,
but I think if you did watch it
and you listen to this conversation,
I'm hoping that you kind of listener out
there had the same kind of feeling
and feelings about it.
And I'd be excited to see this
filmmaker, Laurel permit do more.
I would love to see more of her.
I think she was very efficient
in her vision, and I don't I just like
I don't know, I don't see
I don't see that, you know, I don't see
that all the time where, you know,
I just very like, commend her.
I'm I'm jealous. I'm envious.
I don't know if I could have told
that story with that much precision.
Yeah.
No, there were just so many times
where I was like, that's I would, like,
pause the movie and be like,
oh, that's really smart, that's clever.
And I had that thought
that you were saying
where I'm like,
I wouldn't have thought about that.
You know, like,
that's just such a perfect way.
A lot of two visual shorthand
that she's able to accomplish,
to give you the information
and make you feel something
without having to rely on dialog
and without having to hold your hand
to heavily.
So, yeah. Well, that's another thing.
There's not a whole lot of yeah,
there is not a whole lot of dialog.
It's not like we're getting like a voice
voiceover monologues.
I mean, like with the brief instances
that we do, it's, it's gem praying.
But again, that's not like explaining
what's going on.
Yeah.
So yeah. No.
Loved
it. And this was a great conversation.
I think also, that's
why I like talking about movies
is because you both realized things
or you're having a conversation.
We all realize
kind of things that we didn't realize
or we can like explore that more.
And also really nerdy thing to say,
I love having a discourse about.
I love talking about films.
We do though.
Yeah.
Well,
thanks everybody so much for listening.
If you made it all the way through,
I really appreciate it.
Obviously.
Stay tuned for more episodes.
This is.
I know that we did a bunch of new releases
for some of our early episodes,
earlier episodes, but I'm definitely going
to pull up some older, older films.
And this is an older film,
but I want to really want to make sure
that I showcase these films
that might have come out a few years ago
or even decades ago that we
that are available to watch now and that
I think are absolutely worth the time.
So thanks again
and I will see you real soon.
Bye bye.