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The podcast where relentless curiosity meets leadership transformation.
Hosted by Tyler Chisholm—entrepreneur, CEO, and lifelong learner—Curious as Hell is the go-to podcast for leaders, innovators, and trailblazers who believe that asking the right questions can unlock new possibilities in business and life.
In each episode, Tyler sits down with top executives, entrepreneurs, and thought leaders to explore how curiosity fuels innovation, builds stronger teams, and drives personal growth. Whether it's uncovering the leadership strategies behind top-performing companies, unpacking the mindset shifts that foster resilience, or challenging conventional wisdom, Curious as Hell delivers actionable insights that help you lead with confidence and creativity.
If you're a growth-minded leader looking for fresh perspectives, practical strategies, and inspiring conversations that push boundaries, then you're in the right place.
I came back and they had all they created, you know, Napoleon Dynamite and Vote for Pedro.
I do, I do, I do. That's funny actually. Such a sign of a team.
created vote for Jen. Stickers and they. my God, I was totally crying. And they all were wearing vote for Jen when I came back from that. And I was just like, this is the best moment of my career.
He's a terror to my eyes, the leader.
Hello and welcome to Curious as Hell, a podcast about leading and growing in today's world. My name is Tyler Chisholm and I'm excited as I always am to be having this conversation with my guest today, Jennifer Lucey. How are you, Jennifer? It is absolutely my pleasure. We did a podcast on one of my other shows, Collisions YYC, Bratwit has plug many, a while back now. It's like kind of in the COVID blur, if I remember.
I'm good. Thanks for having me on.
Yeah,
And you are the CEO, newly anointed, appointed CEO in the last two months. Elected. Yes, elected. You found your way to the senior role at Platform Calgary. Before we get into what is platform, well, maybe give us a quick idea of what a platform, then I'll maybe tell my little story about kind of how I connect into platform. Yeah. What's platform all about?
Sure. Yeah, Platform Calgary exists to help connect and grow the tech sector in Calgary. We work to help tech become a viable part of the economy in the city. And we do that through a bunch of ways of education that helps early stage startups, how to build an MVP, how to find customers, how to raise money, how to hire.
And then a whole bunch of wraparound supports that include the resources that are, takes a village to raise a startup. And so there's a deep resource network that we surround those entrepreneurs with so that they can get the resources that they need for their next step faster.
And the numbers, think I've heard you say 900, start up.
Yeah, we have about 950 startups in membership and about 400 or 500 of those are pretty early stage, so pre-revenue. then, you know, we help people go from zero to one. So we have a lot of programming that does that. So before you're even a business or incorporated, so Startup 101 or Discover are programs that are like pre-company formation.
before pre napkin almost
I'm curious. I want to do something new in my life. I don't know what it is. I'm going to go hang out at platform.
have an idea, is this a problem that's worth solving, essentially, is we help them filter that, flush that out. And then all kinds of things that help later stage companies connecting with subject matter experts that are in Calgary, across the sectors that are here, connecting them to investment, helping them hire and so forth. Yeah, yeah. And then we wrap that all up in an innovation center that is a hub, a beacon for anybody who doesn't know anything about tech, we're open to the public.
All the things that
So people can come in. Have a coffee, hang out. We have about thousand events a year, which is a lot.
1000 divided by 365 equals yeah and we're closed on Christmas and New Year so that's a lot of events per
lot of events and that's a lot of our strategy is around how do we convene and create collisions. Some are engineered, but most of them are random. And that's the whole point where we have this very open, welcoming community and place where a founder can talk to an investor, can talk to a subject matter expert, can talk to someone who's been there, done that, can talk to a volunteer. Exactly. They go to the water cooler and that's where the magic happens.
Or we're drinking the same coffee.
Pixar model. It's them force people to bump into each other. There's a lot of successful models out there. thank you for working in the word collisions. I really appreciate it. So collisions YYC was my first podcast, but I met you. I met so many people doing that. But I looked back today, episode 14, December, 2019, I sat down with Terry Rock, who was the former CEO. And I still remember the episode because he said, Tyler, we're going to build a parking garage for innovation. And I'm like, what are you talking about? And I got to sit back. And in that time, as we rolled into 2020, 2021, COVID, all the crazy things, but all of a sudden,
yeah.
this thing that was platform started to literally grow, converge out of the ground. And what he said to me was like this diversify our economy has been a narrative in Calgary since the 80s, since, you know, multiple downturns. But then in the last five years, even, you know, lining up the, for me that started COVID till now, so much of that has seemingly come true. And I think platform is such a, like you use the word beacon. If you drive by it, like it stands out. It's a thing. And if you haven't been to an event there, I highly encourage it. But like,
It's fun to say, but that didn't, wasn't there five years ago. It was a parking lot, I believe, wasn't it?
wasn't. It was. was. Yeah. was a piece of dirt. And yeah, it's incredible to have. I mean, came in, you know, the shovel was in the ground, I guess already when I joined platform.
Because you've been there the whole, you've been there, think, according to your LinkedIn, six years and eight months. you. LinkedIn's very precise with that sort of thing. But I really want to get into it as we unpack and get into the leadership conversation. I'm assuming when you started there, am I being bold to think maybe your idea wasn't to become a CEO or was it? It was not. Okay.
Typically.
It wasn't. So I came out of a, was in a long time entrepreneur and tech in a tech startup, 2015 to 2019. it went under and I was devastated. And I think we'll probably talk about that too. so Kevin Franco, who was an advisor that I'd had at the time and was kind of my only connection into the tech sector in Calgary at that time, because it was so highly fragmented 10 years ago. So I felt lucky to know him.
We learn from our scars.
He's like, hey, why don't you come into platform and be an advisor? And for me, was quite therapeutic. like talking with early stage entrepreneurs.
This is an MBA all to itself, right?
This is what I did, don't do this, don't do this, don't do this. Overbuild your product, don't do like make these assumptions and all these things. And so I started just thinking I would be there for a year. It was a contract. wasn't even a, it was just a contract working in what we had at that time, which was called Junction, which is our pre-accelerator program. And I was assigned a couple of companies and Ava Industries was one of them.
We were at an event the other night and I realized that you weren't an advisor for them.
Just like, yeah, it was a full circle moment for me. yeah, so no, I had no, I did not think that I was, you know, would ever, you know, lead an organization like that. I loved it because it was working directly with, you know, with startups. And then, did you want me to keep like from there I...
Well, no, let's touch on, I am curious. So you're the, you had a failed startup. you the sole founder? Founders? mutual shared all kind of in though, but you know, for not getting into titles, but all in leadership roles. Yes. You were making it happen.
No, there's three founders.
I came in as the CMO, because I had a branding agency for like 20 years prior. Came in as the CMO co-founder and the person that had the idea was, if you want to get into the details of it, was he had like 80 pieces of construction equipment.
I was doing some creeping this morning, I did realize.
And so the concept was, and he had underutilized heavy equipment sitting on the side of his lot and was doing handshake deals and sharing out that equipment to other contractors that needed an excavator, dozer, know, grater, et cetera. so then, and then our third co-founder was a serial tech entrepreneur that was going to build the platform.
which is kind of the formula, right? The person who understands the problem, the marketer and the communicator and that. So, but you said you'd run your own business. How long have you been in leadership roles?
well, would say, I mean, really platform is my first real, like, I mean, I do.
When you start a company and become the leader, is it a leadership role? I know, that's interesting.
Yeah, I mean, my agency, only had like six employees. Then in the startup, was three of us and at our largest, I think we maybe had 10. And I did end up leading that, leading the startup. But again, I would say this is my first real capital L leadership.
capital and leadership role, and also in a role where you're stewarding public funds. Those other roles were your own business. I've been in a leadership role for years, but it's a company I started. That's different. And I recognize that. So curious, for people listening, we joked off air, we see, and I was like, she's arrived at this big role. So along the way, how did you look at leadership? Was it just a hat that showed up? Multiple hats and was one that one you picked up? Thinking about the deliberate intentional of like, oftentimes we find ourselves in leadership roles, often without.
formal training, sometimes without role model. 100%. So I'm curious and we'll get into the role today and kind of that transitioned. But thinking of anyone who's a lot of my audience, especially for the book, it's people like, I want to be a leader. I don't even know what that means for me. As you are along your journey, I'm assuming there was lots of little moments where things hit you where, way of doing it's not working or it's working really well. Just thinking about how you manage that in the chaos of startups and scale ups and running fast and survive.
thrust into leadership.
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think there was a lot of, I wouldn't say accidental leadership, leadership along the way where you're just thrust into trying to solve a problem. So in my past kind of roles. And now, like I was thinking about this as I was driving here and how leading in uncertainty, like our startups are facing, mean, essentially a startup is a series of experiments that you are working to test a hypothesis to try to get something to stick, right? And so that's what our startups are doing.
like every day. At Platform, don't, I mean, you know, we serve any and all people that have ideas that are entrepreneurs. We're not picking business ideas that are winners. We're supporting the people that are building those businesses. So we work to essentially build better founders, if that makes sense. I mean, yes, we're helping them along with, helping them along with.
You're not a fund, you're not an early stage fund. We're trying to pick winners and losers. You're trying to elevate the ecosystem by educating, supporting, these people that are now thrusting themselves into leadership and decision. Exactly. How do they do
Yeah. so, and so with that in mind, you know, we work on, know, how do you build a better founder? And it's the same way that we approach, how do we, how do we, you know, our team of, we've got about 45, 50 people on the team at Platform. And the skills that you need to face uncertainty are the things that we try to teach. So I've started this thing at Platform where I'm like, I have, have eight things that we want to make everybody a leader at Platform that works for, that works for.
All under the guise of being better equipped to deal with the uncertainty that is the world.
Whether you're pouring a coffee at our cafe or you're a VP of ops, everybody's a leader. And so that's how I look at our team. So over the past year and a half, we've done a ton of work on continuous improvement and on our culture really looking inward. And we've had a subset of team members that are helping to define that culture and what's rolling up and out of that, which we're just about to formally launch out to the team.
to the entire team are things like agency, influence, mentorship, resilience, adaptability, strategy, all these qualities that you need to do which help you. when the wind is blowing like it is outside today and things are crazy around you, you have a core set of fundamentals that help you make decisions that are aligned with your own
values and aligned with the mission and the values of the organization. Aside that, we have a whole thing around culture and about 20 other kind of behaviors that we are putting into place and being really deliberate about that. Again, when you're managing change and uncertainty, help keep you grounded. And those are things like, yeah, we have like about 20 of them, but there's like, never vent down to your team.
when it's windy outside. a great metaphor.
give each other grace, slow down for each other, put your phone down and look me in the eye, things like this, right? And so these all sound like very basic things, but those roll up into things like empathy.
thing to do with basic things is just assume everybody knows that. Right? We do that all the time. Yeah. you just know that, right? They're like, why would no one's taught me that? I don't know.
And so you
And I think for us too, because, I think I'm really passionate about this whole thing about making everybody a leader, is because we have a lot of people there that are in their first or second jobs in their career. And as a veteran,
You and I have had more than one or two jobs. 100%.
It's like, can we help? So when someone's there, they're leaving, like we obviously don't want them leave, but when they do leave, they've got a toolkit and we've helped develop that. I mean, we are a bit of a talent accelerator in our own right,
successful, they'll all leave. Right? To certain extent, right?
We're raising a bunch of startups that will hopefully go off and do the next thing.
And we've had people leave our team forced to work in a startup or a scale-up, which is
Interesting. Oh, you're your own team. Yeah, I'm thinking about this 900. The whole point is that they on, right? But no, you're talking about your own team and making sure that no matter what role you're which I understand.
I'm just trying to make a clear between how I look at leadership through uncertainty and how, if we get in the shoes of our startups and we live there, this is what it feels like. so how can we, really it comes down to these core fund, I'm just calling them fundamentals that help us kind of manage this change.
But not taking them for granted and being deliberate about them. So different than your values, or do they run alongside you? I can imagine they're pretty in sync. Yeah, absolutely. If you're acting this way, you're probably living our value over here. Yes. When you were earlier in your leadership career, did you learn some of these the hard way?
They were like pretty parallel, right?
Yeah, yeah, so.
God, yeah.
Any stories you'd like to share? Trauma plus time is 11. So if it was long enough ago, it's funny. That's my rule.
Yeah, mean, feel like, God, I don't know I made so many mistakes, but I think for me more the, I've always been, I've been leading in situations. I think now I have the confidence to lead in a situation is the biggest difference. okay. Yeah, like that. Just again, like I know who I am and those core things give me my ability to stand tall. I think the other thing on it too is around,
I'm confident.
How many bullets come in, I'm still me. How windy it is, I'm still me.
understanding the stakes. so some things are high stakes and some things are really low stakes. so again, when you're facing risk or uncertainty, there's always context around that. Like how big is this risk? And in the past, I've made things so high stakes when they were so low stakes.
That's great. Isn't that Bezos? Like, is this a level one or level two door? Can we walk back through the door if it doesn't work out? Or are we committed once we go into the room? And we tend to make everything important and urgent. That's a downfall in our... Not everything is important and not everything is urgent today.
Yeah
I think, mean, there's a lot of, there's like, we live in a very entrepreneurial city that is very much on the like, you know, and I think it always is like, there is a sense of, of urgency and, and like, I'm not execution, like, do like act like a bias to act. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So
Why I live here, I love it.
Get shit done. Yes, exactly. I love bias action. So in a leadership role, part of the theme of the season, which has moved around a little bit is the risk of certainty. And I've had some interesting reactions when I say that, like, well, a leader, I'm supposed to be certain, but I'm like, is it even possible to be certain about there's too much coming at them? And so how is a leader, you know, when you think about some of these fundamentals you're talking about, where is it that
Yeah.
balance between like, I'm the leader, so therefore there is a certain responsibility that sometimes the buck does stop with you, you've got to make a decision. But I'm so certain I'm not even going to include anyone else in this decision. That's where I think it gets dangerous. I don't know how, you know, in thinking about the fundamentals you're talking about, where does that balance of certainty versus inclusion versus, shit, it's four o'clock, I got to make a decision. How do you, how do you balance that?
Yeah.
Yeah. I mean, I think, it's a great question. It's a very fine line. in talking like, we have public funding, for example, where, you know, we're going up for a certain amount of dollars and we have some level of certainty we're going to get to X amount of dollars. And if we don't, then we're going to have to make some decisions. And so how much of that do you share with the team?
Right?
It could mean jobs. could be because it does whole bunch of really cool stuff. There's much more to the scales of that, but at the end of the day, do I feel safe and secure as a team member to go forward?
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, yeah. And so I think with the team, I try to lead in a way that is very open and honest to the point where I will shoulder the scary bits and communicate the known. But I also talk very openly about things that are difficult. And so I lead with, I think the way that I've tried to balance that is like leading with some vulnerability. Like when I was interim,
I was very open and talking about it with the team and I was sharing, okay, I'm going up for my next interview and Kate, now I got another one and yes, yeah, and I'm not trying to change the topic, but.
Is that your interim for six months?
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
Sorry, yeah.
Yeah. And I think, again, with team members that are, know, maybe this is their first job or, you know, I mean, nonprofit is kind of different. think in some ways people are drawn to work that are hot, like impact driven, like you wouldn't believe. I mean, think generations younger than me are also more impact driven in general anyways. so I think that there's a lot of eager and, you know,
really highly motivated people to do great work. I can't remember why I saying that now. Sorry.
That balance of the fundamentals and the need to create certainty as a leader. the risk, if you get over certain, then you over index and you end up way off over there by yourself. For instance, if you want to go fast, go alone. But if you want to go far, bring your group. But certainty can be really alienating. But as a leader, a wishy washy leader is also super challenging in an organization. People don't like that. You're like, holy shit, isn't it your job to actually make the call?
Yeah
And so yeah, think the key there is in what I've kind of done very deliberately is, know, here's our strategic plan. We absolutely have it. Nothing is changing on it. Things in it might vary a little bit, but this is our goals for the year. is our, the public funding actually gives you certainty for trunks at a time, right? Because they're usually multi-year grants. so, you know, there's pieces there. And where there is uncertainty is more around
How much revenue can we generate ourselves through this new idea, this new idea, this new idea?
I know it's been part of the journey of platform in general, right? To go like, what's sustainable? Everyone's like, yeah, we love it. Do we have to pay? Like, I've heard a lot of things around the challenges of like, where does the model actually net out over time? And when you have government funders, any business that has too much relying on one funding source is a challenge. Let's forget about it's government or private. But you've got that weighing on you as well.
Exactly.
Yeah, yeah. I'm trying to get us to about like a 60-40. Yeah, we're about 80-20 right now. Okay. Yeah.
Okay, in terms of a ballot.
Again, I appreciate it. Have you always been transparent as leaders? Is that just kind of who Jen is? Yeah. Has it ever backfired? I'm sure it has, because it has for me.
I think so. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. And I think it goes back to that being transparent is also being, if I'm not off or if I'm not feeling confident, it's going to show. And that's where it's really backfired on me. It's hard for me to be, if I'm not feeling confident, you will know.
And so those are really challenging and I've really worked hard on that. and that's where that is this high stakes, is this low stakes. Comes in and helps me self-regulate that feeling is around, sometimes when it's high stakes, I have way more confidence. And sometimes when it's low, like it's the weirdest thing, right? Like the things you think you would have, you know, we have Minister Solomon on the stage and I'm like, I should really be nervous right now, but why am I not nervous, right? Or in something that's really low stakes and then I'm incredibly.
you know what I mean? And I think it's that...
The low stakes one is that often I'm just double clicking as kids say to me on that one. Because sometimes when it's low stakes, you don't actually have as much information. Like, hey, what do think about this? I don't know. I'm just hitting this now. don't know. the big, I heard from an agency owner years ago, the elephants don't get you, the mosquitoes do. You don't miss the big invoices, but those, the mosquitoes that give you malaria, those are the ones that get you and eat away your business. And when someone calls me like, hey, what do you think about this? And I have to catch myself. like, don't try to be the expert right now. I actually don't know.
Yeah.
The thing where that's really come for me is in, yeah, what I've learned is the more prepared I am, the more context I have, the more I know. I mean, I know my thing. Like, know what I'm, I know what I need to, like, I know it, right? I know my shit.
4th of the day right there Jenna I love you.
And sometimes you get caught off guard in a media interview, for example, where... And that to me is high stakes and I've tried to reframe it as low stakes and that helps me when I'm in those. Because it's like, know this stuff, I'm just answering a question to another human. This might be on the news, but it's okay. It's like that. So that's how I try to flip on the...
It's a great.
I think as leaders, as humans, the stories we tell ourselves, have to be, we can choose.
We're like, you're the biggest obstacle in your own way, right? Always.
My stories can get dirty. you. I'm no, no. There was no argument for me. There was no argument. The stories we can tell ourselves as leaders. How have you always had, do you believe in, have you always had on your journey, mentors are those people that are invested but outside. Because if someone's working with you or for you, they have investment that's different and you have amplitude and volume that's bigger. But if it's peer, I've put myself in peer groups because they'll be like, hey, you're about to step on a landmine, by the way. And their vested interest is.
Yeah.
It's a term I used a little longer care frontation. They're willing to, they care enough to go, actually, I'm going to call complete bullshit on what you just said. It's hard sometimes to get that in your teams when you're, when you are the CEO title on your, on your, your door. How do you balance that? And do you curate those people in your life that'll call bullshit on you?
Yeah, I wish I'd done that earlier in my career. I don't think I had a lot outside of my father, who was a massive mentor for me, and my mom as well. They built up a business and I watched them take risks and do things through my entire, you know, formative years, I guess you could say. And so I never really tried to formally build that advisory board until...
now, I guess, not now, but the last couple of years, I've really been more focused on it. But I think it's super important. think you need to have those people that you can just say,
I believe. didn't have them earlier either and I stepped on a few landmines and I like, I need to revamp because my perspective is only my perspective. Honey, is that something you encourage with your team? is it, because different environments look at that differently. Some environments are very hierarchical and climbing on top of each other and others are like, no, I'm going to support or, hey, I'm just going to run this like in our world. Hey, I did a scope of work. Just take a look at it because I've been staring at it for two days.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
trying to really encourage that, where it's like, you're not admitting weakness, you're just asking for another point of view. And again, we all have our own baggage, right? As leaders and as just humans.
Yeah, absolutely. Like at Platform, we're highly democratic, honestly. And we really try to create a culture. Like this is, again, we're at one of the stakes, safe place to fail. ton of sharing, a ton of, you know. Experiments. Yeah. And we have all these teams that are working kind of, you we've got program team, we've got an events team, we've got a partnerships team, we have the venture growth team, we've got the marketing team. there's so many. And we're all working on this.
The word experiment is powerful.
you know, fairly complex solution that isn't just for entrepreneurs, but for investors and for support organizations and for, know, yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And so, we also are putting in a, or trying about to launch on a program, which is around finding a mentor internally in the organization. And, we've done a whole bunch of work on like, what are the careers that are possible at platform? How can we really define the skills that need, it goes back to that whole culture piece and
of lots of stakeholders. I'll have a sec.
How can you move up and around? And I've had the privilege of wearing like so many hats at Platform that.
You have like what five different roles? Yeah. I was looking at your LinkedIn and it was diverse.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. And I just kept raising my hand and getting opportunity here and here and here. And so what we're trying to promote now is like, we're calling these the career trees. And so you can jump a tree. So I've jumped a couple trees. And in order if you want to
The visuals are for me.
And in order to jump a tree, get a mentor, internal mentor that's going to help you get there. We want people to, I would love everybody to move around the organization as where possible as much as they want and get the... Build a resume and give them incredible experience. so that when they do leave, they're like fortified with so many new skills and qualities and behaviors and attitudes, right?
We're showing people what's possible.
I have a higher chance of retaining them now.
Would you describe your leadership journey as just put you made the comment and my AI suggested I bring this up with you. But it looks like you put up your hand a lot. Like you sure I'll do it. Sure I'll do it. Yeah. Hey, you want another role and give me an opportunity. How much was saying yes part of your leadership success?
Ha
Oh like, I think it's entirely. Okay. Well, I wouldn't say entirely, but yeah, if you don't... So I was an advisor and it was a contract position and I wanted to honestly earn a little more money. And I'm like, what else can I do at this organization? And this was before I started working with Terry directly. so just saw that they were starting on a donor campaign and a partnership campaign. And I just raised my hand to help on that. Put put me in. Yeah. And then that just led to, one thing led to another.
I know what you mean.
And it's agency, right? And I just think, I just was like, well, why wouldn't I go for this? Like, it's easier for me to, it's like, you know, easier to find something from your existing customer than to find a brand new customer.
But yet we're scared to because there's this weird rejection model. I listened to an article about this the other day, but the new customers are all full of potential, but we're going to overlook this whole dead CRM that we have of customers. They might say no. Did you feel unbridled confidence every single time or did you just do it anyways? I'm a little loaded by question.
I think, yeah, I don't know.
I think on the partnerships thing, think they had a goal of, let's get 30 organizations aligned. This is when the platform innovation center was being built. kind of back to that point around how fragmented it was, where if you're an entrepreneur, you're over here talking to this one, and then you're over here, you're looking here, and here, and here. Totally. Yeah, and the goal is to get a partner network that would be at the hub, at platform. And so they gave me a target of 30, and I got to 30 in about a month.
bunch of circles but none of them are overlapping.
And so I just kept going and I got to 150. it was just like a phone call during COVID, right? And it like, hey, know, this is what we're doing at platform. I want to make sure your organization and our organization's aligned in the same, pointing in the same direction. We're all here to help the tech. Are you interested? Do you want to sign an MOU? Back and forth, back and forth. Yes. And it was just like, boom, boom, boom. So I don't know. Like, I think what I learned through that is that I can, so it's anybody, when you naturally believe in something, it's easy to sell it.
It was a
you like you're selling it all. You're so good at selling. I'm just telling people about something I'm excited about.
Not at all, right? Yeah.
Yeah, and that's what happened. And that really fortified my, that really gave me confidence and gave me heft. And then we started the growth team as a result of that. And then that branched out into, what are our unrestricted sources of revenue that we can go after? Like I like to go and hunt for things and pull them in, right? And then, yeah, so that, think that's where my skillset, my, which I didn't really, I wish I'd had it soon, like when I had my own branding agency, I was just like.
people just came to me. You know what I mean? it was just,
It's different, I know, it's 100%. know, I've been going out there and deliberately and have daydreams. But you didn't have the skill until you went home, did practice, and did it. Like just waiting until it's, the wait until it's perfect and then I'll do it. I don't think that's the journey, whether it's entrepreneurial or otherwise. Like, what is it? Show me a perfectionist, I'll show you a procrastinator. When it's perfect, then I'll do it. Define perfect. Oh, but it changes every day. And I think in leadership, I've talked to lot of people here, they're like, well, it's funny, I get some feedback from some younger people. said, hey, reading your book actually helped me see that I could maybe.
Like I.
have a version of what leader is for me. Because looking at what's out there, I never saw myself in the reflection. So therefore, I never thought it possible. You don't think it's possible, you're not going to move towards it. That's an interesting balance, right? Sometimes you got to do it.
And yeah, and it's helpful to see others do it before you.
Yeah. Oster syndrome is, what is it, the joke is, I statistically 83 % of people admit it, 17 % lie about it. It's been a real part of my life. And every time I feel it, it's like, I know I'm moving in a direction like, it's a dressing, where'd that go? I feel like I'm just, you know, I usually know I'm wading into some interesting territory because that little, I treat it as an indicator that, this is uncomfortable for a reason. Pay attention, but don't run away.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah, you gotta run into the fire.
Yeah, don't you though? Yeah. Entrepreneurs, when you have 900 startups that are running into the fire. permeate the whole organization. Like we have people that come on, like I'm an entrepreneur and you have someone who's very purpose and very passionate about the community. Out of that 50 or 60 employees, have they been entrepreneurs or are there people that just want to be part of something? Like it's an interesting dichotomy between two sides of the house.
Hmm. We do.
Yeah, yeah. I'd say that there are, yes, there are entrepreneurs there and there are, and we, there's both. Yeah. Right? Yeah. There's absolutely both, builders and innovators. And then it's so inspiring, right? Like you're on the front line of the possible. you know, I sat in on our- thanks. Yeah, it's up with us.
great place to be the front line of the fossil. Tag lines. All I'm a marketer for 20 years. That's why, that's why I get it. We are brains just right.
Yeah, yeah, but I sat in on our, we've got another, a new workshop up called Discover 201, which is essentially helping, you know, find the person that you're solving the problem for and talk to that person about their problem, not about your solution, right? And so I sat in on it and, you I'm just listening to the ideas and they're just raw and very early and it's the possible, right? And it's, it's a-
He's excited and it's passionate and it's like kind of messy.
Yeah, you know, it's something that tech I think is incredible. You're not tied to the price of a commodity or...
Or even the way
It just feels so... I don't know, I'll never leave tech.
I love your passion for it. So when you're working and coaching and mentoring people on your team, or even right through to some of these, how do you approach when someone just like self-sabotaging, no confidence, won't take those risks? Like there's a narrative. I might be really passionate to solve this problem, but like back to our joke earlier, we get caught up in our own narratives. When now you're in a leadership role where you're looking to elevate all the people around you, and I get that impression chatting with you, how do you then confront it in a positive way when...
when they are truly their biggest obstacle.
couple ways. I usually try to share something that I've done in order to, that is relatable. Something I've either failed at or where I felt super inferior or something that was really hard. So open with that. Again, on lowering the stakes. I've had this with multiple conversations. We are not saving lives. We are not ER doctors with someone on the table that is about to die. Our work?
have experienced this.
is important, yes. Some could argue it is critical, but right? Yeah, like nothing is as important as the way that you're feeling right now. Nothing is as important as the humans that all work here. Like we are all people, we're all humans doing, know, trying to do something together. And so I always bring it right down to that. I'd say those are the two things. And then I also, I try to flip it so it's like,
Either through humor or not humor around like making fun of them, like turn it into something that you could.
Thanks for clarifying. I was pretty sure that's not what you meant. You call this a real problem? Like, whoa, this is not the coaching I was looking for.
You know, like just something that-
Or like try to make it, yeah, try to lighten it and either through enthusiasm around what's possible, again, like flipping it to be like, well sure, this might be a problem, but what about this if you actually. Yeah, reframing, yeah, thank you.
Re-framing. That's what If I may be so bold. Well, it's often because we get this vision and so I was like, well, what if? I love that. Well, what if we just flipped this around and looked at it the opposite way? I remember years ago, this is one of the things I talked about in the book. And I have a friend of mine got back from a conference and I was like, she's like, oh, best thing ever is top three things. She's like, oh, I can't even give you top three things. And I was like, what would it be like if you could? And then she did. And I was like, I felt like a parlor trick. But it was just a slight reframe and creating possibility.
Yeah.
Yes.
Man, we tell stories in our mind that often have, can have more closed locked doors than open doors. But like, hey, let's just, know, even the power of you and I switching chairs, the physical, like, now let's look at it from another perspective. I really can't see it from the way you were seeing it because you changed your perspective. And is a leader, does leader, does leader mean coach for you? Do those two words hang out together?
I guess so. I don't know. Yeah, that's a tough one. I mean, I think the different leadership roles I've been in, I don't know. Like, when did you stop being the coach and when are you? Yeah. I don't know. Yeah.
I don't know if you ever do. I don't know if you ever do. Maybe that was the root of the question. The more I spend time in leadership, the more I see my role as coaching and helping elevate the people around me. Helping and elevating the people around me, coach seems like the appropriate word to use in that setting, which usually means being curious about them, asking more questions. Hey, like what if this wasn't as serious as we think it is? I'm not saying you're wrong, but let's just play around for a minute. I've gotten better at that with time when I started to embrace it versus like, let me solve your problem for you.
Yeah
That was not coaching and that was not also successful for me.
Yeah. Yeah. That's really interesting. think more so than ever now, feel that the making better leaders is my job. Like more so than I did as COO or in prior roles. think it's shifting.
So
Because they're just more focused on the performance, the job. There's the concept of working leader. I'll tell you some stats. Like 80 % of leaders today are not ivory tower big strategy here to help the world. They have deliverables of their own. So it creates some really sandwiches in the bandwidth you have to support your team. And then you get raked over the coals by whoever, your board or whatever for not leading. But meanwhile, did you get all these deliverables done? It's a real dichotomy in the world. We're so addicted to output.
Yeah, I think.
Yes. Yeah. And I'm a doer. I'm a, I'm a, I'm doer my entire life. And so coming up and out of operations is interesting too. Um, yeah. I started like, um, so I used to get on every like membership at, um, events at all the event, all the group emails. I would like, as a COO, I'm like in every one of them, right? I'm like, just checking, just just like not like, like micro, but just.
Roll up sleeves, get her done.
How do you manage that?
I know you're staking for it.
So started pulling out of those and it's just like, my inbox is shrinking a little bit. But no, being more deliberate about delegating and trying to, but in one day when you're, I think I said this to you the other day, I can't unsee the problems, like there's still, or the issue or the block or the whatever as COO, that's kind of, you're constantly trying to, someone's throwing something over the fence to this team and they're throwing it back or.
And you're seeing it.
Yeah. And so it's hard to unsee that stuff. And so I feel actually lucky that I have that kind of background that I can know, know, still those things are undercurrents, they still are, but I can work on them, but not directly anymore.
So to, I heard someone say this the other day, and I loved it. They were a leadership coach and they actually go on this long walk when they onboard a new coaching client. they actually, part of their walk, there's a cemetery. And when they get to the cemetery, they said, what part of your old leadership has to die for you? The new leader you want to be to grow. So we're not in a graveyard. We're not in a graveyard, but I thought the visualization was powerful. So for you, cause you're right in it right now. And you kind of touched on it. What part of maybe COO, Jen?
has to pass away respectfully. We'll have a nice funeral and everything. We'll a party after. For the new CEO Gen to come alive.
Yeah, I think kind of what I just said, right, is getting out of the weeds and getting out of people's business. As far as I'll see something and my instinct would be if I see some email come in that could be a new potential event client, for example, and I'm like, my God, Megan, this is a white glove. And it's like, no, she already knows that. we don't need to, I don't need to keep doing this. Right. And so it's like, and I'm doing it because I'm excited, not because I'm like making sure it gets done. Like it's.
It doesn't always get perceived that way by the people that you do it to. didn't, you didn't find my meddling helpful.
I'm speaking.
Yeah, yeah. But I always apologize, right? Like it's like, know, know, you know, and so then I just, I'm like, okay, go pull out of those. And then I think more future looking is where, right? you know, it's been a lot of reactive work to date. And now it's like, okay, no, I'm looking that way. I'm looking this way now.
Platform, still a startup or is it a scaler?
Yeah, it's so... I know, and this was... I don't like to say that we're a startup because, partly because when you have government... We're responsible stewards of public funds. have... We've got an asset, have all these things, and I don't really love the term because it sounds like it's unstable. And so just for that reason, I don't like that term.
What is the startup cover question?
We've even had feedback from the team on that. Like, it's just like, no, like we're not like.
No, because it implies by its nature so many
Like that it's going to go away or that we don't know what we're doing or yeah.
Start up looking for help. I'm probably not going to go to another startup.
So to answer your question though, I would say we are definitely in scale mode. In 2019, we saw like 300 entrepreneurs through our programming. Last year, 1500. Nice. Organic growth, right? so how do we, you know, same with the tech company membership, how do you serve 950 companies at scale? And so we think in scale now. We think in scale. How do we serve at scale? have, you know, 30,000 filters, people coming through our doors a month.
It's like a university campus coming through platform every month. It's insane. That's so awesome though. It's insane. It's amazing. they're coming for like talent. They're coming for investor events. They're coming for public events. They're coming for all kinds of things, right? And so how, so to me, the focus now is systems for scale. do we do that? And then how do we just like, what are the headwinds coming that we need to be aware of? Which of course is AI. And how can we help our entrepreneurs?
ago wasn't there.
navigate the tsunami of that.
So they've spent six months working on that now just got wiped out because of an update on cloud.
Because of an agent. Yeah. You know, like how do we help? And so that's like, you know, and
Back to the risk of certainty in a world that's completely unpredictable and I don't know, 10X faster than it was even three years ago.
Exactly. So we used to courses or programs that could run for a year. We currently have like a nine or eight week, nine week program right now, which is probably going to be the longest program we will ever have moving forward. need to shift into bite-sized content that's matching the speed of the entrepreneur, that's helping them adapt as it's changing week over week.
how it your curriculum.
And so that's a big shift of how we need to change moving forward. And so those are the kinds of things I think I need to shift my thoughts into is what does entrepreneurs need that because, know, content. Yeah, I already said. Yeah.
Little more game
Yeah, you're trying to intersect the bullet that's going already moving. In amongst that speed, and you touched on it before, values and fundamentals and how do you keep score for yourself? Like, do you have moments in the morning where you're like, okay, which version of Jen's going to show up today? Or at the end of the day, sometimes, me, hmm, that version of Tyler was not the best, most functional version that showed up in that meeting. I was reactive, I was under stress, I, you know, did like a shithead. It's possible. How do you, you know, how do you heal thyself?
Yeah.
well, that's, yeah, I'm figuring out how to do that. I think for me, like actually, like tactically or...
philosophically. It's one of those kinds of questions.
Yeah, in fact, well, we have this People Leaders Meeting once a month at Platform. So all of our kind of, I guess you could say middle management. Sure, yeah. And two of our team members shared a leadership course they had just taken. And that started with a circle. And it was like, okay, here's your work thing and start pying out exactly what you do. it was crisis, leadership, ops, like all these things.
I like- and then you fill it out and you get to see the balance. like- I like them. They're very revealing.
Yeah. then the people... And this was very timely, this question, because the one that was like grounding yourself was one of them. And so you did it twice. You did the first one and say, what's the current state and then what's the future state? And what I learned out of that was my ground oneself was like, know, 1 % of the pie. But that not really got me thinking. And the way that I do that is through like exercise, early morning, like I'm caught like...
If I don't get my time between like six and eight in the morning to just like be and do whatever I'm doing, I could be working, but I'm also just calm. If I don't get that time, see myself later in the day having, you know, not showing up the way I want. And we actually had this exact conversation and so a more deliberate attempt to do more of that. Like every day I need to do that.
love that you're having that conversation with your team as well. Right. Because it gives permission sometimes to something that's like, oh, that's kind of fluffy. No, it's not. It's really, it's kind of table stakes. Yeah. If you don't take care of yourself, it's hard to show it for anybody. A lot of leaders, I joke, I've been really smart, of four burners. You get your work burner that gets turned on high. Yeah. Then you have your health burner, the family, and then your community burner. And we all tend to like...
Yeah, yeah, and
Yeah.
we get very rewarded for turning that work burner up high. But if you neglect those other burners, eventually they burn out and it's hard to get them lit again. It's a great visual because I think it was somebody in the valley that said, you want to be successful at this next level, you can't get all four burners going. But then what price are you actually deliberately paying versus all of a sudden waking up one day and going, oh shit, I screwed up. It's tough because this balance is the biggest.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I don't think that's put on top of us as leaders, as humans. You need to be in balance. What does that even mean? How do I do it? There's an often a guidebook that goes with that statement.
Yeah, yeah. Especially now, like I think I, well, as interim, I was kind of campaigning. I'm at every event. I am like doing everything I can to demonstrate that I am the person that should lead platform. Like I'm trying to demonstrate, like it was like a six month long job interview.
And baiting is a powerful word.
Okay, so you wanted it right out of the get go. Yeah. I've been dying to talk to you about this. So you're like, I wanted it, I'm going for it. It wasn't like, I'm going to fill in the space. Do you find someone I'm going to, I'm going to sail off.
That was cool. I wanted it when I became COO. I wanted it when I became COO. yeah, and then, so now, yes. Okay. Yeah.
Did you make that known?
Hey, just in case you guys are thinking about this, Terry, I'm, you know, cause you and Terry were supposed to sit together. He's had moving on. Hey, just, know, hey, like I'm hearing for your whole career, you put your hand out.
Yeah, yeah, I did. Okay. Yeah.
How was that? I know this is the right term, but I like to use it because I've never used it on a podcast. Were you a lame duck CEO because you were interim? could you be the leader or were you just filling space? Like, how did that go?
Yeah. Yeah, it was interesting. It was good. mean, okay, so Terry left for reasons of funding and not being on both sides of the funding table. had a very quick exit from platform. And so yeah, stepped in and Terry was very gracious and generous in the way that he shared a lot of the leadership.
I I heard about it and then it was done.
roles with me when I was COO, with the exception of philanthropy and GR, government relations. And so I was already very much in the weeds of all of the things, right? And so it wasn't like a huge step forward into not like that I hadn't been, I've been exposed into a lot and was also involved in a lot of the philanthropy and not so much on the government side of things. so it was a fairly easy step to step in as interim. And then it was an interesting process. like applying for your own job.
That you're already doing. That I was already doing. Yeah. And the first thing I did was I eliminated the COO role because I, at that time was...
It's very Game of Thrones of you right there. We're just gonna remove this one right off the table.
It was partly, well, there was a few reasons, but- See how you do it out. Do you what mean? That's where I was at that time. And I still, we are not replacing it. We have a VP of operations that we ended up promoting instead.
Yeah, I'm joking.
More than what I'm hearing is you kept things moving forward during that period of wasn't just this no man, no person's land of.
I did have advice from some great people around, act like an interim. I really took that. Yeah. Like just do what you can. It's like, know what we need to do and we ... No, not at all. It was great with the board. was very ... I said, here's what I'm going to do. We had a bit of a budget issue anyway, so eliminating the COO role kind of worked in our favor.
leader that you are.
So you didn't have one hand tied behind your back.
And just kind of, you know, this is what we're going to do in the interim. And so moving forward there, and the team was amazing. They were very, very supportive. And then, the interview processes were weird. I mean, not weird, like just kind of felt existential or something, right?
People you knew, these are people that you've worked with before. it was, Hey, are we just having a chat or is this an interview? Like what's going on here?
Yeah, yeah, well we had to search for him and...
so you have to deal with... there's a full process. Yeah, of course. Of course there would need to be.
Yeah, yeah. And which was great. The funny thing was that the search firm was doing all this reach out and people were starting to tell me, I just got an approach for your job. And it's just like, okay, I don't really want to.
Wow, because it is the biggest small town ever we live in. I guess I could see why that would have moments of weird. And now you said that lasted six months. And when you found out, I think there was a time between you found out and when the world found out.
Yeah, so that was six months. Yeah, six months.
Yes, there was another. And so that was hard not telling the team because I obviously wanted to wait until it was... Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, I went through three interviews. The last one was a presentation on, you know, it's 2030 and what do we look like now, which was a great visioning exercise, which I did for the board. yeah. So, and then when I did get it, it feels good. I...
You started leading off by you love being transparent. how's it going? Yeah, good.
Yeah, I feel like I earned it.
How was the visioning exercise like because there's a risk you're too close to it versus someone from the outside who comes in and says a bunch of crazy shit just because they're from the outside. Like how hard is that? It feels like it was a burden. That feels hard to me.
Yeah. Yeah, so
It was really interesting. I took, okay, so this might be, so there's a show on TV called Glow Up. Have you ever seen it? It's on like Netflix. It's like a makeup competition.
I know of it. Where the makeup It may have been on the TV in my house. Okay. So I might have walked by and seen it.
Yeah, and so there was this one episode where like the, you know, and I mean, this is any reality show, right? Where there's some creative, like project runway or whatever, right?
That's also been on the TV at my house.
I love those, those are my guilty pleasure.
Nice. We all have our, okay. appreciate it. There's always time pressure. Right? It's got all the form. It's got the formula figured out.
Right? There's design, there's competition.
And so one of the ones was the judge was giving feedback to the person. It's like, we just keep seeing the same thing from you. Like, we just keep seeing the same thing from you. And so the person was like, oh, I'm going to really step it up. so I literally went and I created my presentation and I started it by saying to the board, like, you've only ever seen me in ops. Like, all you've ever seen me is I'm in that board meetings and I'm answering the questions and I'm doing all the things and I'm always in execution. And today I want to show you a different side.
And so I just did a full vision with, I had butterflies in my presentation.
you turn around, put on different glasses, turn around and like just boom. it sounds like it sounds like it's from agency. Sometimes you got to pitch. Sometimes you got to put on a show.
Yeah, it was like... I love it already. was just showing, yeah, obviously showing a different side, but acknowledging. I think the best thing I did there was state that right at the beginning.
I'm gonna say it before you even think it.
Yeah, I know, and I think that's the thing, right? You got to know you're always in your customer's shoes. No matter what you're doing, you're always in your customer's shoes. And so that's the thing that I did there. I had OpenAI and Entropic and all these logos all over the building. And we opened up a center of AI and all these things that I put forward. The city buys the building and all these things. I did, and I created it like, these are heads.
You really, you went for it.
Is that a situation where it was riskier not to go for it? Yeah. Back to your point about is this real? It's real and it's worth it.
Totally.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. was a very, yeah, was a great moment. At first I thought, my God, I have to do a 45 print, like really? Come on, haven't I done enough? Haven't I shown enough, right? Yeah, and it was great.
who doesn't?
We have a process and you're to. How many candidates were pitching, do you know? Calling it pitching. How many candidates were presenting?
There's five short lists listed for the second round and then there was me and one other person for the final. So. Interesting.
That's such an interesting journey. was so curious from the outside because I was hearing about it. Interim CEO. I'm like, what does that feel like? What's going on over there? I think I into you once during that time. And it was so interesting coming in here today, but I was like, okay, what can we talk about?
And the thing that was amazing and with the team. So like I shared, I was telling them, okay, I'm going in and they're like, good luck, Jen, and like fortifying me in that way. And then on my, I think it was on my second interview.
It's a very public journey too.
If you didn't win, were some of gonna mute me? Like this is the whole thing going on. I like that.
But then I came back and they had all, created Napoleon Dynamite and Vote for Pedro.
They created Vote for Jen stickers and they... Oh my God, I was totally crying. Of course. They all were wearing Vote for Jen when I came back from that. And I was just like, this is the best moment of my career to date, even if I don't get this job. I was, it was so, it was incredible. And I think that's just an example of where, you share your vulnerability, you get it back.
No matter what happens right there is awesome.
Like you get it back in speeds, right? Like that, will remember that the rest of my life in a way that- Vote for Pedro. Right? It's like, suck it.
It's so good. But it's such a testament to like, what's the value of investing in your team? What's the value of relational curiosity? Actually, you're being curious about them as humans. What's the value of being honest? It's all that. It's intangible until the second it is. And that's the challenge sometimes like where I've met with leaders that are like, no, I'm just here to do a job. And I'm like, what about the people? Like, well, I can't measure that. I'm like, I don't know. I think there is a point like you either believe or you don't. And if you do believe, you lean in and then you have moments like you
Well, it's like ownership. I feel like I own it, even though I'm not. But right, is I'm owning. I treat it like as if it's my own business.
How much of that coming from the environment where you grew up in? you watched your parents, like, the only reason it got done is because somebody did it and it's probably me or you.
Yeah, they started a business in our home, explosives business. Interesting. so we had, I was right from the beginning, it was started in the basement and became a national company that eventually sold. just to watch my, like I said, watching my parents navigate this and take risks. And it was obviously the third child on topic of every dinner. And you ate it, lived it, breathed it, right?
Like that's, think the reason why I'm an entrepreneur is because I grew up in a family that was one. So yeah.
It's funny. grew up around a kitchen table. grew up in a large farm and farmers are all entrepreneurs, but no one calls themselves that. Like my dad's like, do mean a job? never took a job. You have so many variables. They're getting commodity prices, weather, like wow, whatever the case may be breakdowns. I grew up around that and it just wasn't what it was.
Yeah. They're all.
Just risk it.
You out on the tractor? 100 % Oh my god
I'm a tractor kid for sure. Love it. I love driving a car. I love doing all this. And it's such a, I do have an appreciation for that now even more so. It's like, it's a real world where you get to see the fruits of your labor, pun intended. Like where sometimes in the world we live in, it's just perpetual projects, perpetual things to do. I think also to keep myself healthy, I bought a real property outside of town. And sometimes on weekend, I just split wood. Cause you know what? I never have to split that piece of wood again. I did the thing. It's a good workout and I love it.
But the sense of accomplishment you get from like kind of being out in the dirt a little bit. What's that? I have 70 acres, so I have a very big garden. And I have tractors and all the choice. This is going way off topic. But again, back to finding balance for yourself, like that moment in time. Like I go out there for two days in the weekend and I come back a better leader on Monday. Because it pushes the reset button for me. We're veering off into another territory. But I think for so many leaders back to those four burners, it's really important to understand what does fill up your cup. So then you can show up and be the best version of
Give a big sub note there.
Yeah.
Leader Tyler, Leader Jen, that you need to be. I don't want to skip over it. I asked you what time it was earlier. And you said to me, said, well, Tyler, this doesn't work, but it's my dad's watch. And since you just mentioned, like, touch on it little bit. Like having a talisman on your arm every day, I think it's very, I think it's got a lot of value.
Yeah.
Yeah, so my mom gave this to my dad when he was still alive. And for whatever reason, he gave it to me while he was still alive. And I've been wearing it every day since.
Did it work when he gave it to you? Or was it like, here you go, you might have to fix it, okay?
I think my mom had it fixed once and then you, yeah, there was some frustration with it. so then much to my mother. Every day. I do, yeah. And so he's been gone now like seven years. But obviously a massive influence in my life. I think it's just a presence. I also have his company ring, which I sometimes wear when I have big moments around my neck. think jewelry.
what you wear to.
And you those people in your life too, those role models, those mentors and like that it means something. And I see when you touch it, it creates an anchor for you too. watched your anchor.
Yeah. Yeah, it's an anchor and it's armor. It's armor too. I like that. And not in a way that's like, you're defensive, but it is, it's protective.
It's not not letting anybody in, yeah.
I have a very large company ring that I have another necklace that I often wear and if I'm doing something, it's like a 25 year ring that he gave to all his employees and it's massive and it's like one of those big Super Bowl rings.
Sometimes I just put a Romanic and it's just kind
That's a great example of like creating your resource state. And like, okay, all right, we're gonna do the thing now. got my arm around. 100%. I think that's so important, especially when you're, you as leaders, we're under fire all the time. I don't even mean that in a bad way. Like emails are coming in and people are trying to get reactions from us. So and so wants this, so and so wants that. Staying centered of who we are as leaders when the world is, it's really windy out and it's blowing you all over. The people are gonna laugh like it must have been windy the day these two were talking.
regulating here.
Windiest hype. You'll all remember if you're from Calgary. If you're not, well, we had a windy day. But how do you stay centered? And I think those little, they seem so tripe, but they're not. They're really powerful when you're deliberate about it. How long you been wearing it?
Yeah. gosh, like at least 10 years. Yeah.
It's a couple of lifetimes.
On that note, and maybe it's, maybe I've already kind of posed it, but something I like to talk to people about is when we get called to react versus taking a moment to reflect. And is that when you grab your watch and it's like, like, do we manage that? Because I think it's, I am reactive. I like to react. It's fun. Sometimes I feel it's indulgent, but I usually make better decisions at least after one breath. I don't mean reflect for two days. Let that parasympathetic nervous system come in. So how do you balance off sometimes the desire or the need of the people around you want you to react?
Yeah.
versus taking a breath.
Yeah. Sometimes I do that well and sometimes I don't. I think I pride myself on making concise decisions in efficient timeframes. Okay. So not quick decisions, but... That was very... I I'm very careful. Because I think I could be a bit impulsive. But I also... Especially when I started working in the COO role at Platform where I'm like, okay,
I want us to be nimble. want us to be efficient. don't want us to be a slow moving government funded organization. I want us to maybe, you know, directive.
You can also have to match the startups you're hanging out with too. Right. You can't be like this. It has to be at least close.
Yeah, so for many reasons. I think a few, there's been a few times where I've made decisions too, like too quickly. And so I think that's not really answering your question, but I think sometimes my, have a gut of what I think and then I'm training myself to just, yeah, pause and then, okay, can this wait 24 hours? Or is this something that I know? And then what I do is I get counsel from the leadership team.
It's exactly answering my question.
And so, and the way that I do that is I say, I have a bias. Here's my bias on this decision. Call us out, check this out. And so I state the bias.
I love it. And you name it. Yeah. can call it that. But you give them permission. And that's so like, I'm chock full of biases too. And they used to lead the day. Yeah. And I'm like, Hey guys, I have a bias here. Tell me if I'm about to lunch. Am I drunk? Am I on track? Do you agree to disagree? Like no wrong answers, you know, kind of thing. But that's, that's been new. That's probably the last five years. Impulsive Tyler was the leader before that. So I resonate with your comment.
Yeah, yeah. yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, it feels slower, but it's better, right?
wants to go slow to go fast. They said it in the end of the Was it slow, smooth and smooth as fast? Jeff Bezos' thing, Special Forces mantra of like, slow it down. And all of sudden, wow, we got farther down actually. And especially when you have a team around you that holds it, go fast by yourself or go far with a team. What happens when, or how do you manage it when everyone around you is like, I disagree. Like, I think it should be this way, but you still are like, thank you for your feedback. We're still going to do it this way. How do you balance that?
Exactly.
Yeah. I haven't had a full mutiny yet. There is one thing that's bubbling up right now that we're considering participating in or not. If we participate in it, it has all of these incredible opportunities for brand affinity and all this stuff for platform that I think would be really great. On the other hand, it's going to be a major lift.
It happens.
I've got a full like, yeah, I got it.
and we don't have the resource and we need to go and find and maybe find a new sponsor and like all these things, right? And so I'm over here going, no, we absolutely have to do this. And what it brought up for me was, yeah, that's, I used to think that because when I was a CEO, I'm like, my God, Terry, no, we're like, we can't do that. We can't do that. And now I'm seeing it in real life.
big workflow.
dichotomy in those two. So without the COO, do you have the you to counter you? It's like CO Jen and COO Jen's sitting on here, you know what mean?
well, we have the bee.
She's on maternity leave though. so we are at a gap right now. And so our leadership team is, but I promoted her into the role before she went on maternity leave because I think that's really important. And she's been decades in platform, a decade in platform and the right, absolutely right person to lead this work. So she'll be coming out of the programming tree into the operations tree. The model. Yeah. So right now we're, we are really banned, we're, our leadership team is a little bit stretched. And so I'm very much still.
of in that role helping along because it's just, yeah, it's not sustainable.
But also it sounds like you're creating, in my opinion, the right tension because as the leader, you are looking further down the road. You're looking at the bigger left and I've had this happen. How ended a new client that seems like that just means more work. exactly. And you can't ignore it, but you also can't let it stop you from having the bigger vision. Yeah, exactly. then you're not doing your job. Tricky. Where I respect and we'll do what we can to help you guys, but we're going this way. We're going this way anyways because I got to make that.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, exactly. It is. It is.
Yeah, one thing I was doing on this example is like, what is the minimum you think that we could do in order to get what I want over here and still keep the...
Which is reframing the situation without having everybody have a complete meltdown.
Yeah. And also kind of just trying to shrink it into what's the minimum like an MVP, like thinking like a startup, right? Like what's the MVP on this idea? What's the bare minimum we could do in this year to test this? And then, you know, what would be the next thing we would do? And so really trying to take lean startup methodology and practice it in real life.
Do you ever catch yourself COOing your own ideas before the CEO visionary can run with it? Yeah. Thank you for allowing that to make sense. It's like, okay, what am I trying to ask here? Yeah. Yeah, I got it. I can see the two sides of your brain or whatever.
You often get stuck in the how, right? And in fact, even I'm not new, but I'm on another area, which was not on the docket, but like around being on boards and governance. so I'm on a board, I'm on the Bethany Seniors Board. the thing about being on a board, and I've been trying to get on real boards, I've been on boards. I've been on... Yeah, this is my first...
I know what mean. Real board. I get it. Capital B board. of friends that are on, yeah.
Yeah, and I'm also doing my ICD right now, which is like amazing, but
Yeah, yeah. Being on a board and governing another organization is so cathartic and helping you govern your own organization. And it was really interesting that way. I just totally forgot why I was going to, what I was going to I know, because I'm often on that board still stopping myself from solutioning or saying something. Not your your job. in the weeds and right. And so it's just something to practice.
that's good to hear.
Which is not your
...spend our careers getting rewarded for being good at that. GSD gets you done. That's an interesting balance. Self-curiosity never goes away, right? Or it shouldn't. it does, usually you find yourself running off a cliff by... Why am I thinking this way? Shit. I could have really bring it up a little bit. Those little chats with self, I find that very valuable. Yeah. And finding time and creating a little... How do you create the space and time? Is it that time in the morning? Is it that time...
Yeah, yeah. so I try to put on that hat.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, the time of the morning and then time of
Pretty dismal, was that? Like, this is my time and it needs to be my time?
Yeah, I mean, I just got to wake up at that time no matter what. And then it's, so that's nice. It's not hard for me to get up. then, so that, and then I have two adult daughters that are currently both miraculously living with me right now, 26 and 20. Yeah, so that's a huge grounding thing for me, just spending time with them and my partner, course, and that. yeah, things outside of, I mean, I'm always kind of working in space. Yeah.
Is that the world we live in?
That's why I asked about how to create a little space. Because man, I'd be more curious if I had more time. I'd be more open. I'd explore more ideas. But yet in those leadership roles, you have to keep that space. It's like, you're not exposing yourself to just the opportunity to think, how do you come up with the big ideas? Or recognize them when they come. I sometimes it's even the case.
Or forcing myself into something like, do you know the stump craft puzzles? They're so incredible. are they? wooden puzzles, there's stump craft.
No, I don't. My is an obsessive puzzler. So they haven't find their way into my house. Christmas 26, I've got my thing.
for subgraph.
The really intricate complex puzzles and that like when you force yourself into that or something for me as well is like small home reno projects like painting or doing like... And building a puzzle. to focus on cutting the line between the wall and the ceiling. Like things like that where you just can't think about anything else.
Back to
Worse is you end up that kind of close to it. I do, I'm a huge advocate of those things and because I'm a better version of me when I do them. I'm a less better version when I don't. As my wife has pointed out to me multiple times. But I've just stopped denying it now. I've my life with those things. Because then leader Tyler on Monday is much more balanced. Maybe just wound it down a little bit. Thinking about own journey, I know so many leaders, back to those four burners, we turn that work burner up and we crank it and then the rest of the burners kind of go stale.
Maybe we're doing more, but are we accomplishing anymore? don't know. And I think that's where the self-curiosity of like, huh, is this really working or is it not? Or having someone in your world, care frontation, they can say, hey, maybe a heads up over here. Maybe this is a blind spot you're not seeing. It's just so critical. That's why being mentors and surrounding ourselves as mentors are critical. What, last question, I promise. What gets you the most excited about the fact of that 2030 vision? But what do you actually put into play?
Yeah.
yeah. Well, I had all kinds of ideas in there around, you know, Calgary is the, there was a lot of city building stuff in there where Calgary is the, you know, the darling of Canada for leading AI and entrepreneurship and like all these kinds of things, right? Yes. Yeah. So I think that, you know, we're always measuring ourselves against.
all these other benchmarks, other global and I mean that is important. Yes.
And we still need to be our version of us. I'm pushed back. I used to be on board with that a little bit and I've started pushing back. We're going to be the best version of being us. We're not going to be Waterloo. We're not going to be Silicon Valley. We're not going to be wherever we spot.
Yeah
Yeah. And so, you know, I see, still like, it would be ideal if we could, I mean, this isn't really that vision. I mean, this is Brad Zummold's vision. It's like, can we just try to get to 5 % of GDP here? And I mean, I know that's a very, you know, active kind of thing, but like, really, like, I'm tired of us being in this little echo chamber and all the tech people just talking to themselves and saying, this is so great. This is so great. This is so great. It's like,
Everyone in this city knows what platform does. Yes, you can park there, more than a parkade, right? Yeah, like really part of the fabric of the city where we become like the library. Like everyone knows what the library is. Everyone should know what platform is. And we are open door. And I think for youth, right? Like where we've got programs that can help from high school through would be
Be bigger, be bigger.
in the world.
or is it an area where like we have to go upstream and we haven't been able to do that yet, right? So that would be on the horizon for us too is how can we get into high schools? And yeah, yeah. And I mean, I think with the Calgary Innovation Strategy, there's been a ton of work done on collaboration across the city as it comes to tech and innovation where we have all these nodes of different sectors and you're seeing it like all over the place, right? Like collaboration is
just expanding the influence, right?
five years has kind of been nuts in the city. The way finding of it all is kind of.
Yeah.
Yeah. so I think that it feels like we've evolved into a place where, I mean, this is what platform does, we never build anything unless no one else has done it that we can't partner with. But you see it across the board in the most recent transportation logistics hub, has industry and academia and government all coming together. the collaboration really is...
it's everywhere now. And people, think, are finally realizing that. with what's happening outside of, know, other sides of the border, like all the promotion to work better together as a country.
Yes, if there's been some positive side effects, which there's a few out of that whole mausoleum, let's call it that. I think it's forced us or given us a kick in the pants. Hey, maybe we can get a little better at this with, you know, working with each other and what's in front
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. I mean, ideally, I'd love to see the entire parquet turned into, know, because that building is convertible. We could, you know, we could, we could flip that out. I'm not sure that would happen in five years, but.
I know that was the concept.
Well, hey, six years ago, was Terry or seven years ago, Terry telling me about this, we're going to build a parking garage for innovation. Like this may be not his words, I'm paraphrasing now, which I am, but don't underestimate what could happen in the next five or six years, especially with the right leaders in the seat. So thanks for coming on. Thank you for being transparent. Thank you so And thanks for willing us to have a good old fashioned conversation.
Thank you so much, Tyler. I really enjoyed this chat. My pleasure. Thank you.