Breakdancing, Brotherhood, and Becoming a Son: The Michael Swalley Story

🎙️ Episode 17 – Breakdancing, Brotherhood, and Becoming a Son: The Michael Swalley Story

This is a Lion Legacy Conversation — a long-form interview highlighting the wisdom, resilience, and faith of remarkable men.

👉 Ready for the next step? SCHEDULE A FREE, 30-MINUTE CONSULT with Mark or Zack at: https://escapethecagenow.com/call/ to see if you’re a good fit to work with them one-on-one. Space is limited.

In this compelling episode of The Lion Counseling Podcast, Mark Odland sits down with Michael Swalley — breakdancer, missionary, husband, father of four, and founder of Break Free Ministries. From small-town Minnesota to underground hip-hop communities across the globe, Michael’s journey is one of pain, purpose, and pursuit. With vulnerability and strength, he shares how fatherlessness, faith, and movement collided to spark a global ministry reaching men through creativity and community.

Whether you're a man haunted by the past or searching for deeper purpose, this episode will challenge how you see manhood — and sonship.

🔍 In This Episode, You’ll Hear:

Michael’s story of losing his father to suicide and finding his identity as a beloved son of God
Why men today are hungry to be seen, known, and mentored — even in unlikely places
How a Japanese exchange student named Ace was the first convert in a movement now spanning four continents
Why emotional honesty with your wife may be one of the most courageous steps a man can take
How movement, creativity, and brotherhood unlock healing in ways words can’t always reach
What breakdancing under a bridge in Hungary taught him about community and calling
A redefinition of masculinity that blends responsibility with tenderness, and sonship with strength
How the “check engine light” of your soul can become a roadmap to deep healing and purpose
Why legacy isn’t just about what you do — but about how deeply you receive the love of your Father in heaven
💥 If you’ve ever felt like you had to perform to be loved — or wondered if your story could really be redeemed — this episode will speak to your soul.

Learn more about Michael’s work at https://breakfree2024.com or follow @breakfreeministries on Instagram.

About the Show:
The Lion Counseling Podcast helps men escape the cages that hold them back and become the lions they were created to be. Hosted by Mark Odland, Certified EMDR Therapist, and Zack Carter, Counselor & Coach, we tackle real issues—masculinity, trauma, addiction, identity, purpose, marriage, and faith—with honesty, clarity, and courage.

Click here to watch a video of this episode.’
👉 Ready for change? Visit www.escapethecagenow.com to schedule a free consultation for coaching or counseling.

➡️ What part of Michael’s story resonated most with you?

Creators and Guests

Host

Mark Odland

Founder of Lion Counseling, Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, Certified EMDR Therapist

What is Lion Counseling Podcast?

The Lion Counseling Podcast helps men escape the cages that hold them back and become the Lions they were created to be. It exists to help men obtain success, purpose, happiness, and peace in their career and personal lives. The podcast is hosted by the founder of Lion Counseling, Mark Odland (Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist and Certified EMDR Therapist), and Zack Carter (Counselor and Coach with Lion Counseling). In their podcasts, they address a variety of topics relevant to men, including: mental health, relationships, masculinity, faith, success, business, and self-improvement.

Michael Swalley: 00:00

There in Melbourne, the hip hop community is also very active, very big. I was just working out at a YMCA, and I saw a group of about 20 guys in their twenties and thirties just breakdancing. Just at a, you know, the gym, right, there. And I thought, well, I do that. So why don't I go join them?

Michael Swalley: 00:18

Well, as I as I started to engage and I was there for six months, start to engage this group of guys. I heard their stories, right, and and and how important story is. Right? And and I heard their stories, and what stuck out to me was almost all of them, from what I remember, had deep father wounds, if they had a father at all, most of it from father absence. And then I I saw some of their kids at this practice, some of these younger guys, and they were repeating that process as I started to hear more of their story, you know, with their sons.

Michael Swalley: 00:50

And that process was generational. And that for me is where God really started to move my heart Yeah. Towards these men because it lined up a lot with my story. Right? Right?

Michael Swalley: 01:02

It really did. And then the the difference, though, was that they had no positive experience with the church, with a community that would love them and be with them as I did. And that is where God then really spoke to me pretty loudly. And then saying, hey. This is this is where I want you.

Mark Odland: 01:27

Effort is free. The level's been set. Time to wrestle the beast. Testing my g is getting heavy indeed. The struggle I embrace now never retreat.

Mark Odland: 01:36

I see the test Welcome everyone to the Lion Counseling Podcast. I'm Mark Oddland, founder of Lion Counseling and certified EMDR therapist, where our mission is to help men to break free, to heal deep, and to become the lions god created us to be. And if you're looking for help, you're always welcome to schedule that free thirty minute call at escape the cage now dot com. Well, my guest today here is is Michael Swalley, who is doing amazing things, in his in his life and his ministry, and I get, the privilege of calling him a a good and old friend. We go way back.

Mark Odland: 02:10

So, Michael, welcome to Lion Counseling Podcast.

Michael Swalley: 02:14

Mark, it is. Yeah.

Michael Swalley: 02:15

So good to be here. Yeah.

Michael Swalley: 02:17

And, thank you, yeah, for the invite.

Mark Odland: 02:20

Yeah. My pleasure. It's one of those things where, you know, when we see each other, it feels like we can catch up like no time has passed. But

Michael Swalley: 02:27

Exactly. Yeah.

Mark Odland: 02:28

Here we here we are on the podcast. And, maybe to begin, you know, just to flash forward, you have this very unique ministry called Break Free, where you're working with with with breakdancing with b boys across the country and across the world. So so hang on everyone to to hear about this amazing ministry.

Michael Swalley: 02:49

Yeah. Well, like, for most hip hop ministries, I started in a small town in Minnesota. Right? So hip hop flowing right right out of there. Where I love to start, Mark, I'm a son.

Michael Swalley: 03:00

You know? And as someone who loves Jesus, you know, believes the gospel at the heart of the gospel is adoption. It's relationship, right, in into a family. And by God's grace, I was adopted in at a at a young age. Grew up in Alexandria, Minnesota where I met Mark Oddland.

Michael Swalley: 03:21

And, you know, I'll just share this. Two two very formative experiences for me in my life happened before I can I can remember? And it was on my first birthday, so 1981, my mom was diagnosed with MS. And she's an incredible woman, has been a rock in my life. But she was diagnosed with MS when when I was one.

Michael Swalley: 03:44

And then, about six months later, my dad died. He took his life. And and so growing up, I saw the physical challenges really at the heart of sin, right, and just what sin can do in the physical body and also relationally and within the family structure, right, so growing up without a father. Those two things have really shaped a lot of who I am and really a lot of my passion and purpose as well, which I'm sure we can Yeah. You know, we can get into later.

Michael Swalley: 04:16

But as most men know and find through our hardship and suffering, often we find, right, our passion Yeah. And and purpose. But I grew up, though, Mark, with an incredible spiritual family. The church was very dynamically involved in my life. When I go back to Alexandria, these same people I see.

Michael Swalley: 04:35

Right? And and the kids of these people, you know, who are very involved in our lives, but but we have this bible study at our house, Mark, and and some of my first memories are of these men and women who, yes, I would hear the gospel from, but these would be the same people who are bringing us meals, right, who were fixing our car. For a single mom of two kids, you know, struggling physically Yeah. I saw that. And so from a very early age of the gospel, you know, I believed, and and I saw it.

Michael Swalley: 05:06

I I heard it, and I saw it. And so from that time, and I've had a lot of men in my life who have invested in me and a lot of people because of that community, again, I can sit here today and say, yes. I'm an adopted son. Believe in Jesus, and have a spiritual family. I have a a wife, Ellen.

Michael Swalley: 05:25

We've been married for fourteen years. We live now in Colorado Springs. We've been out here for about five years. Ellen and I have four kids, three girls, and, and a boy. And as you said, I I get to live my passion in vocational ministry in a ministry called break free where

Michael Swalley: 05:43

Mhmm. Not on my radar as we are growing up.

Michael Swalley: 05:46

Though in the eighties, right, all of us, I feel like we're trying to break dance, watching MTV and breaking Right. Breaking two. Right? Never did I think this is how God would use my life story and my passions, but but here we are. And so

Michael Swalley: 06:01

that that's a little

Michael Swalley: 06:01

bit of of me. Yeah.

Mark Odland: 06:03

Well, I can say not all of us are trying to breakdance, Mike. I mean, I

Michael Swalley: 06:09

You worked them on. I we would I saw this guy, everybody. He had no inhibition dancing. Oh yeah

Mark Odland: 06:17

that's true the school dances were epic.

Michael Swalley: 06:20

They were epic. Those who know.

Mark Odland: 06:25

I'm so curious I'm trying to think back because we went to high school together. We were one grade apart, but, we were in the trenches playing football together, playing tennis, and hanging out hanging out a lot with with a good group of guys. And Yeah. But in the midst of all that, when did you when did breakdancing, like, start to become a passion for you? And when did you actually start developing that skill?

Mark Odland: 06:49

Because there was a lot on your plate in in high school. Yeah. I know you went on to play football in college too. And Right. With everything going on, where was there room for break breakdancing, and how did you discover that passion for it?

Michael Swalley: 07:01

Yeah. And, you know, and so growing up, as you said, Mark, football was, you know, yeah, very much a a passion of mine. And and it wasn't, you know, something where I I was gonna play at a professional level, but, yeah, played at a d three school. But I'm really thankful. I went to a school, Christian school outside Chicago, Wheaton College, where all of my coaches took football very seriously, but took even more seriously, the Lord and investing in young men.

Michael Swalley: 07:29

Right? And so the struggle for me growing up, and and I was very much a peacemaker and really wanted to perform well, was tying my identity to my performance, really in anything, you know, whether it be the field, the tennis court, the Sure. Schooling, you know, and and seeing success at at all of these things. Yeah. And so when I got to college, it was my junior year.

Michael Swalley: 07:51

I had too many concussions, and I was cleared or not cleared to play anymore. This was in the early two thousands, right, where they were starting to really get serious about that. And so a big part of my identity and performance on the football field was then taken away. And and I struggled a lot with that. But, again, had these coaches in my life, and these men who still invested in me, and I saw, wow.

Michael Swalley: 08:17

I can't perform on the field, but here are men who are still investing in me, still care about me. And God was using that in my journey, right, to to continue to knock out those lies that we believe. And that was one of those big moments of, Michael, you're not who you are on the field. Right? You're not loved because of what you can do.

Michael Swalley: 08:37

So that was big for me. And in that season, I was looking for an athletic outlet, just something. And, at Wheaton College at the time, we couldn't dance. But Oh, that's ironic. That was that.

Michael Swalley: 08:51

Right?

Michael Swalley: 08:51

But breakdancing was not a social dance.

Michael Swalley: 08:53

So we

Michael Swalley: 08:54

could square dance, and we could breakdance.

Mark Odland: 08:57

Wait a second. Wait a second. Are you saying that there is a fork in the road, and you almost had a square dancing ministry?

Michael Swalley: 09:03

There we go. Right? That fork. Right? There there we go.

Michael Swalley: 09:06

That was almost there. This would be a very different conversation.

Mark Odland: 09:09

Yeah. You'd be wearing cowboy cowboy boots and a belt huge belt buckle. And I mean

Michael Swalley: 09:16

That's right. That's right. But I went the road less traveled, I think, wind breakings. But truly, I just saw it as, like, a fun athletic outlet. Yeah.

Michael Swalley: 09:27

You know, it's just and and I was pretty fascinated by it, so I just started doing it as a hobby and had no intention at this time. Right? There's really been no passion for the dance. It wasn't like I I fell in love with the dance, and I didn't know at the time. Right?

Michael Swalley: 09:44

But within so I was right outside Chicago. In all of these major cities, there's this underground community of hip hop. And it's not it's not even performance based, but it's more communal based where K. Where mostly men will get together and and meet and practice and dance and, you know, all these things. Didn't know it.

Michael Swalley: 10:01

Just thought, hey. This is a fun thing to do. After college, I went to do an internship that focused on the family in Colorado Springs just for six months. And then myself and a few others, we are younger, had graduated college. We thought we wanna go to Australia.

Michael Swalley: 10:19

Focus on the family had a branch out there, so we went to volunteer at Focus on the Family in Melbourne. That for me, Mark, god used that to change, again, the trajectory of my life Okay. In a in a new way. So there in Melbourne, the hip hop community is also very active, very big. I was just working out at a YMCA, and I saw a group of about 20 guys in their twenties and thirties just break dancing.

Michael Swalley: 10:45

Just at a, you know, the gym, right, there. And I thought, well, I do that. So why don't I go join them? Well, as I as I started to engage and I was there for six months, start to engage this group of guys. I heard their stories, right, and and and how important story is.

Michael Swalley: 11:00

Right? And and I heard their stories, and what stuck out to me was almost all of them, from what I remember, had deep father wounds, if they had a father at all, most of it from father absence. And then I I saw some of their kids at this practice, some of these younger guys, and they were repeating that process as I started to hear more of their story, you know, with their sons, and that process was generational. And that for me is where God really started to move my heart

Mark Odland: 11:30

Yeah.

Michael Swalley: 11:30

Towards these men because it lined up a lot with my story. Right? Right? It really did. And then the the difference though was that they had no positive experience with the church, with a community that would love them and be with them as I did.

Michael Swalley: 11:45

And that is where God then really spoke to me pretty loudly, and then saying, hey. This is this is where I want you. And it took the executive director at Focus on the Family at the place I was volunteering. I would come into our team meetings and just say, hey. Can you pray?

Michael Swalley: 12:02

You know, I'm seeing this opportunity to to work with guys. And he pulled me into his office one day. His name was Colin. Didn't even know what the hip hop community was. And but what he said was, you know, Michael, I see you're impacting men that we're not able to reach here, and I really think you should consider starting a ministry.

Michael Swalley: 12:24

Mark, that, like, that was it. And and I shifted from a business econ degree and loving working with Excel, which I still love, and all these numbers to a hip hop ministry. Wow. And I I had no idea what I was doing. And and what also man, I've reached out to Colin a few times now just to say the time you took because then he would meet with me every week just to start to envision.

Michael Swalley: 12:49

He didn't know, again, what hip hop was, but he understood what it was, right, to have vision and mission and purpose. And he started to invest in me, even in something he didn't understand. And and God has used men like that all throughout this journey for me, Mark Yeah. Where they've been able to help guide and and and to see a passion. Even if they don't understand that passion, they wanna really unleash that in other men.

Michael Swalley: 13:13

Mhmm. And so Colin is someone who, again, has been a big marker in my life. And so that that was in 02/2004, and that was when everything changed.

Mark Odland: 13:23

Dang.

Michael Swalley: 13:24

Yeah. Wow.

Mark Odland: 13:26

Now I remember being blown away because, you know, we were going through college. We're going, you know, young adult stuff. And at some point, I saw a video of you on this dance floor, like sliding across the floor on your head. Yeah. And my mind was blown because I'm like, What?

Mark Odland: 13:44

That's my buddy Michael Sway from high school and it was pretty cool. I remember getting excited for you and obviously you have those gifts of connecting with people at a relational level, but then apparently are backing it up with a skill set of immersing yourself in that culture and in that sport activity. I don't know how you want to define it.

Michael Swalley: 14:09

Yep. Right.

Mark Odland: 14:10

To what degree are you like practicing and and like Yeah. That is that the whole social thing where you're talking and then you're you're you're dancing together? Like, tell me about that.

Michael Swalley: 14:20

Yeah. So, you know, and and my wife, Ellen, will will laugh sometimes because I'm 44. Right? And and almost 45.

Michael Swalley: 14:26

I'm just saying, how much longer,

Michael Swalley: 14:28

you know, can you can you do this? But it but it really is marked for me. I I really love, you know, the dance aspect of it. It's but it is the relational and social aspect. And when you really get into this community now when I came back from Melbourne, went out to LA to start, have been in Dallas, Chicago, Colorado Springs, Denver, have been in, you know, cities, Latin America, Africa, Europe, right.

Michael Swalley: 14:58

All these cities. And at the heart of this community, at the heart of hip hop, it's this idea to wanna be a part of something. Yeah. You know? When when hip hop was really birthed and born, it was out of hardship, and these young men wanted to show creativity and to be known by others, you know, within this creative process.

Michael Swalley: 15:18

And so still at the heart of it, I still go to practices, still engage community. At the heart of it is that relational part. And and you can probably, you know, speak to this better than I could, but but as a man, I feel like we can bond really well over physical activity. Right. But I think there's something powerful to that where because we're in a practice, spend three hours together doing this, there is a bonding to that.

Michael Swalley: 15:46

Yeah. And and we see a lot of deep relationships, and and that seems to be pretty universal. Yeah.

Mark Odland: 15:54

Yeah. That's that's really interesting. I mean, I've observed that too, you know, as a therapist and in in my own personal life. I mean, joke, right, is that females are smiling and nodding their head and staring, like, face to face. And as guys, we kinda shoulder to shoulder.

Mark Odland: 16:11

Right. Of course, it's like saying, yeah. It's okay that we're wired a little differently, but deep down in our heart of hearts, we still desire a deeper connection. Right? And and brothers that we can trust and go through life together.

Mark Odland: 16:23

And so Right. Sometimes that side by side and physical activity is almost like that window in where trust is built, brotherhood is formed, and then some of those deep conversations can happen. And I'm imagine imagining that you've seen that over and over again in in your ministry. And Yeah. Yeah, that's very cool.

Mark Odland: 16:47

When you're talking about these big cities that you were in, it makes me so curious too. It came up the other day in one of our staff meetings with my fellow therapists, but that idea that through Christ there's this unity that there's no longer male or female, slave or free, Jew or Greek, right? We're all one in Christ Jesus.

Michael Swalley: 17:11

Yep.

Mark Odland: 17:12

Yet we live in this this broken world, right, with a lot of debate and a lot of tribalism, a lot of just a lot of woundedness. And so as we're entering into this hip hop space, did you find that there were any cultural or, like, racial dynamics that made it difficult from a Minnesota guy like you stepping up in that space, or or, like, how what or was it was it less friction than you anticipated? Was there was there more? How did that work?

Michael Swalley: 17:42

Yeah. That's a great question. Because, really, my first deep exposure to that was in Los Angeles. Yeah. And and there was that friction where within that community and, again, every city is different too.

Michael Swalley: 17:59

But within that community, it's it's majority black and Hispanic within the the hip hop scene. And so, yes, for me to walk in, there there was some some trust and relational, right, friction initially. But and this wasn't anything I planned, Mark, again, but just how God uses this because I would dance. Right? You walk into a space.

Michael Swalley: 18:24

Guys are dancing together because I would dance. It is much less than I anticipated. And so being able to to have that and in hip hop in and of itself prides itself on unity. Now the unity is pretty shallow when you really, really dig into it, but there is an an idea there that if you if you are involved in one of the elements of hip hop, there is an acceptance. And and, again, on on somewhat of a shallow level, but that is true.

Michael Swalley: 18:56

And so because I would go in and because I would work hard and I wasn't the best break dancer, you know, by any stretch, but they saw that I was humble, that I would work hard. The relationships grew rather quickly. And when you take an interest in somebody, even ask a question, right, of like, hey. Can I hear a little bit of your story? Like, did it to me at the beginning.

Michael Swalley: 19:22

Right? That's that's a very affirming question and to feel seen and heard in that. The thing that most men, I'll say men because that's who we're working with Right. Don't get asked that very often. Yeah.

Michael Swalley: 19:35

And then to really actually listen and to and to hear a story and to see someone on a Monday night at a practice and then on Wednesday or Friday and to follow-up with their name and with a question from what I heard last week, that was uniquely powerful in in this context. Because, you know, really, at the end of the day, for someone to feel that affirmation, that was more powerful than than any other dividing factor. Yeah. And so I think, you know, because of that and and and because I was participating in what they were participating in, those barriers were knocked down pretty quickly. Wow.

Michael Swalley: 20:15

Yeah.

Mark Odland: 20:15

That's really cool. I mean, that's that's powerful. And so early on, I mean, you're kind of figuring things out as you go, but Yeah. Are are you just literally like, okay. I'm in LA.

Mark Odland: 20:27

There there's this group of guys dancing under the bridge. I'm just gonna show up and be like, hey, guys. Hey. Yeah. And then just dancing and hope it works out or like

Michael Swalley: 20:38

Mark, it took me a

Michael Swalley: 20:40

year, Mark, to meet my first first breakdancer. I laughed though because the bridge illustration, this might be a different story, but in Hungary, there was a through a trip, we were there under a bridge, and they spliced their stereo into this wiring under the bridge. There's, like, 50 dancers just, like, breaking under this bridge in Hungary.

Michael Swalley: 21:01

So that does happen. And But here

Michael Swalley: 21:05

I am. I move out to I say LA. A family hosted me in Anaheim. Yeah. So I thought, oh, I'm in Anaheim.

Michael Swalley: 21:12

I need to go to LA. I had no idea what I was doing. No idea. Social media wasn't wasn't very big yet in February. This was in 02/2005.

Michael Swalley: 21:22

And so I was really on my own. I didn't know how to find this community. I'd walk into clubs. I'd go, and I couldn't find anyone more for a year. And I was questioning Wow.

Michael Swalley: 21:33

Myself questioning, Lord, what am I doing, right, with with my life? What am I doing out here? Yeah. Here I am trying to figure out a hip hop ministry. No one understands what I'm doing.

Michael Swalley: 21:43

No one really believes in what I'm doing. Everyone questions, right, what I'm doing. And it was on Easter then of 02/2006. The family that hosts me is just having some friends over, and one of the family friends have an exchange student from Japan. His name's Ace, and he's a breaker.

Michael Swalley: 22:01

B boy. I'll use the term b boy.

Michael Swalley: 22:02

It means

Michael Swalley: 22:03

break dancer. Yeah. He is a b boy here from Japan, and he says, hey. I'm at Cal State Fullerton. Come practice with me.

Michael Swalley: 22:11

Come with me. And and so that's where my first exposure to a b boy. So he and I Ace, he and I start practicing together. Sure. And just he and I for six months.

Michael Swalley: 22:22

Just just Ace and I. And for six months, again, questioning, though, god, is this this it? Yeah. It's just me and Ace. And after six months, Mark, through our conversations and relationship, Ace comes to know Jesus, loves him, and and becomes and is saved.

Michael Swalley: 22:40

And and it was in those moments, Mark, where God too in my journey, right, in trying to find identity even in the success of a ministry Mhmm. Is really starting to share, hey, Michael. This isn't about numbers, and this actually isn't about you. Right? If I called you to this for ACE only, it's worth it.

Michael Swalley: 23:01

Yeah. Right? It's worth it. And that that, to this day, is a continual struggle for me. Right?

Michael Swalley: 23:07

Not to find identity and success, not to define success by numbers, but but but those early lessons. And then, Mark, after that moment, people just started coming to our spot. We had music going in this, like, open area at Cal State Fullerton. They started coming. We had 15 people, and that's when I started to hear, hey.

Michael Swalley: 23:26

There's a spot in Long Beach. Hey. Here's a spot in LA. Here spots that I couldn't find on my

Mark Odland: 23:31

own. Yeah.

Michael Swalley: 23:32

And then truly within a matter of weeks, was engaging about a 150 to 200 men every week just by just by going to these spots. But it took me a long time, Mark, and a lot of frustration and, you know, and and a lot of just soul searching on that, you know, and lord the lord needing to take me through a few things of of what this calling meant. And, again, as as a man, how am I defining success? And and where am I getting my identity identity from? But that was Oh, that's the story.

Mark Odland: 24:06

Oh, man. That is so cool to hear because I think I mean, I think about, you know, my counseling ministry. And and a lot of the guys I work with Yeah. Are a lot of them are leaders in their community. They're business owners.

Mark Odland: 24:19

They haven't had maybe some of the the similar rough upbringing that maybe some of the some of the guys are that you've worked through. But interestingly enough

Michael Swalley: 24:26

Yeah.

Mark Odland: 24:26

You have similar father wounds.

Michael Swalley: 24:29

Mhmm.

Mark Odland: 24:29

And and it might have been a version of that in a successful family in some cases where a a dad who worked really hard and was a good provider, but for whatever reason that the I love yous, the hugs, the attaboys Mhmm. Were just missing. And so that same kind of performance based identity, which actually works pretty well in the business world, not so good relationships. Yeah. That's where a lot of guys find find us at Lion Counseling is on paper, they've checked these boxes, right, that there are a lot of things going well, but they feel discontent.

Mark Odland: 25:05

They feel their their marriage is suffering. They feel disconnected from their kids. Their stress level is high. They've they've achieved these things in life that they should supposedly be happy, and yet they don't feel peace. Right?

Mark Odland: 25:18

Yeah. And and some of the guys we work with also are at an interesting crossroads, even guys of faith too, where should I take this new job? I started this new company, and I'm grinding it out, but we're still not getting ahead. And I'm sure there are moments when you were in that waiting period of wondering, like, what is up, God? Like, like, how do

Michael Swalley: 25:40

you Yeah.

Mark Odland: 25:40

Learn whether it's a matter of just staying faithful and persistent and God's gonna see it through or I miss something. I miss something, and and I'm running in the wrong direction. And Yeah. Like like Jonah. Right?

Mark Odland: 25:54

I mean, do do you need the Right. Whale to swallow you before you get the message? Or Right. And and and so, like, this I get that may be a whole new podcast is is just that Right. Discerning, you know, God's voice.

Mark Odland: 26:08

But

Michael Swalley: 26:09

Yeah.

Mark Odland: 26:10

In the ups and downs of that journey, like, what did you learn about what God was up to and what he I don't know how to put it. If if you feel like he was cultivating something within you or preparing you for something or what he might have been doing behind the scenes, why? Another way to ask it would be, what would have happened if he just dumped you into that spot, you know, on day one and hadn't had this, like, process to go through first?

Michael Swalley: 26:41

Right. Right. Yeah.

Michael Swalley: 26:45

Because the struggle and really even still the struggle now and it's interesting you brought up Jonah. Right? Because at the end of Jonah, Jonah's still not, right, happy with the Lord. And

Mark Odland: 26:57

He's not. God has a way of kinda forcing him where he needs to go, but, yeah,

Michael Swalley: 27:01

he Right? Right.

Mark Odland: 27:02

Not happy about it. Yeah.

Michael Swalley: 27:04

Not happy about it, and it just continues to show, like, God's grace in all this. And and, you know, Mark, still to this day and and and seeing it more clearly now of operating right from that, a lot of times, that place of hurt and not feeling like a beloved treasured son and and needing to feel like I'm I'm earning and and continuing to earn, right, my identity in that and what I'm thankful for. Because even at that point, Mark, I couldn't divide I wasn't able to identify that that I was operating out of that place. But in the midst of that, he continued to provide people in my life. Right?

Michael Swalley: 27:43

To be able to to speak that. And because there's so many blind spots that I had discerning sometimes the voice of God is is very difficult. And did I mishear you? Right? Should I even be out here?

Michael Swalley: 27:56

What you know, again, I with a business degree, and and shouldn't I go into something more stable? And so one of the, I think, handles we have no matter where we're at in life, right, no matter what we have going on is that we are made for community. And we're made, right, to have things even spoken into us. And so when we don't have our fathers to do that or even some who have. Right?

Michael Swalley: 28:20

Like you said, even in the healthiest of relationships, there's still that that hurt that can happen to continue to press into community. Yeah. And in that, right, the lord can can and does speak, you know, very clearly. And so was able to, in those seasons, Mark, with the family I lived with with with people that of the church I was a part of, still had men in my life to speak that affirmation, you know, and and to say, you know, keep going. And and and that's so I don't think I would've apart from having others in my life, you know, to continue to to speak into me and to speak into that.

Michael Swalley: 28:59

And so that I'm I'm really thankful for. Wow. And, you know, would say, again, just as for all of us, no matter what we're we're going through, think that is, again, a pretty constant value we need to have. Are we known in some context, right, by by by people in some way? So that that was really helpful.

Michael Swalley: 29:22

And those doubts don't leave. And I and I don't know with with your experience with Lyon and just through your journey as well, but even as we grow and see success and fruit and those different terms, however we may define them, the doubts are still there. Mhmm. And and those struggles are still there. And so I at least from what I'm seeing, that's a continual process Yeah.

Michael Swalley: 29:46

Within, you know, within our journey. Yeah. So they continue to have community. Yeah.

Mark Odland: 29:51

For sure. I mean, I think it is it is a journey. Not you know, it's it's something where we don't very few times in life can we really say we've arrived. Right? Because we're

Michael Swalley: 29:59

Yeah.

Mark Odland: 30:00

We're always a work in progress. We're always even the people who seem to have it most put together. If you really knew their story, what their struggles were, it's just very very human. We've all got stuff. We all have grief, we all have loss, we all have disappointments and heartaches and failures.

Mark Odland: 30:17

Yeah. And and I think that's so interesting that the overlap in our in our ministries too because, I mean, typically, you know, as an EMDR therapist, that's a very specific kind of trauma therapy that I take guys through. And the first two sessions are are understanding their story, identifying their core lie, and then tracing it back in time to the specific memories of where those seeds were planted. And then sometimes and again, it's it's not just one thing, but it's that combination of support, love, encouragement around them. Having access to truthful, hopeful information about, like, who they really are and how they can understand that.

Mark Odland: 31:02

And then that's another podcast too, but then kind of like an emotional surgeon. I use that therapy process to kind of make that cut on each memory to see what lies are inside and then to help it to heal kind of at the source. Mhmm. So that it's almost like the more memories that heal from that that wound, the lighter the man feels as he walks through life. He's carrying less bricks on his back.

Mark Odland: 31:31

Right?

Michael Swalley: 31:31

Oh, yeah.

Mark Odland: 31:32

And and that's what I tell people. You know, I think for a lot of guys, a lot of powerful healing can come through their faith, through community, through purpose. And then if there are lingering things that still feel unresolved in their past, sometimes it's just a matter of, like, in these mortal bodies that we have, their brains just kind of filing away some experiences the wrong in the wrong place, and they just need a little extra support to, get that truth from the head to the heart. Because they already know the truth here. Yeah.

Mark Odland: 32:04

But can they feel that feel it in those moments where something would happen that brings them back to that place where maybe they feel like that wounded kid. And and so, yeah, I think there's there's there's similarities there there for sure. And it almost seems like there's this I don't know if template is the right word, but it's almost like whether it's ministry to to b boys or whether it's being a therapist or whether it's being a good friend or being a business owner trying to influence your community in a positive way. That very basic template of showing up, like actually caring Mhmm. And asking the kinds of questions for someone to be able to like reveal a little bit more of who they are.

Mark Odland: 32:54

And Yeah. It's such a rare skill to actually be a good listener these days that it's just like incredibly refreshing and surprising when people encounter it because I can't tell you how many like if you if you like go through a random sampling of like people at your church or your friends and and you're like okay yep they're smart, yeah they're caring, are they a good listener? You know like maybe not, it kind of depends on the person right? And so there's such power in that. And then I suppose as the spirit leads and as the relationship deepens and as opportunities present themselves, you found all these opportunities for these guys not only know to know that you care about them and they can trust you, but that you have a story too.

Mark Odland: 33:40

Right. And then that Jesus is part of that story.

Michael Swalley: 33:43

Yeah.

Mark Odland: 33:43

That's part of what's helped you to transform and heal and it makes people curious, I bet, about like what that could be like in their life. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For sure.

Michael Swalley: 33:55

It is. And and, Mark, it's fascinating what you what you just brought up because for for men who don't feel listened to, they will rarely right? They're not good listeners. Why why would they be? Right?

Michael Swalley: 34:08

They're competing to try to, like, get their story out. But, yeah, as you do then then for them to ask those questions, that's actually a really good marker for us to see is there healthiness coming along. Is someone able to kinda ask and be interested or curious back? Yeah. And that can take years sometimes.

Michael Swalley: 34:28

That's where where someone will even ask a story, but but it makes sense. Right? Yeah. Why not? But then as you're more freed up, then you can start being that for others.

Michael Swalley: 34:39

Right? And and and so, yeah, that's that's what we've seen as well.

Mark Odland: 34:44

That's that's really cool. I mean, it makes me think a little bit. Our our church brought us through this curriculum called emotionally healthy spirituality, and it's by its pastor named Pete Cesaro. And his big insight as he was a successful pastor who almost had his marriage fall apart and almost burned out is he started to realize that spirituality could not be in a silo apart from emotional health and relational health, and that to be emotionally healthy was actually an integral part of having spiritual health just as we walk out our faith because as we all know someone can be very religious and do a lot of really good things, but if inside that you're feeling a lot of, like, resentment and bitterness and anger, it's like, oh, man. Like, there there's something that's that's worthy of healing, that's worthy of attention there.

Mark Odland: 35:39

And so so yeah, I mean, unique ministries, but there there are these overlapping principles of listening and care. Right? Well, okay. So it makes me it makes me curious too, as you've seen this ministry grow and evolve over time, what does break free look like today and what parts of it are you most excited about or curious about? Like I'd love to hear kind of I know we're making a big jump from

Michael Swalley: 36:11

Yeah.

Mark Odland: 36:12

You know, that first year all the way to today, but I'd love to hear. Like, tell me about

Michael Swalley: 36:16

the Right. Now. What does it look like? Yeah. So what we've seen, right, is is this like, we've talked about some of these universal truths of of what we need.

Michael Swalley: 36:28

Right? And and Right. And how healing comes and and and in that and how life, right, is broad in purpose. And so it's been really neat, Mark, because we've seen more and more, and and it's nothing new, but, like, that this happens in community. Yeah.

Michael Swalley: 36:44

Right? And and and I think so very often in the in the church today, and it's you know, we view discipleship as kind of this one on one thing or kind of in the silo. But so as we have been using that terminology of, right, of making disciples, right, of followers of Jesus and and believing that within that, sonship, daughtership is found and healing is found, that needs to be in community. And so we have we have moved into saying we wanna actually plant the church, and we'd say these little micro churches Yeah. Right, within wherever these this community is meeting.

Michael Swalley: 37:18

Wherever the community is meeting and they're already meet, we want the church. So not only just are we trying to reach individuals, but we're saying we want community there where these men can be known, grow, and we feel like that kind of community is gonna impact then their families and their communities. And so for us, Mark, that's been pretty new and and something we are are so excited about. Wow. And and something that, like I've said, we what was and what was neat, Mark, is when we presented this idea.

Michael Swalley: 37:47

So Yep. As you said, we're global. So we have, you know, whether it be cities in Africa, Latin America, Europe, know, different cities here in North America. Every single leader said, yes. This is exactly what we need.

Michael Swalley: 38:03

Right? This is and and just seeing the unity of that across all these different cultures. Now, again, how it looks, it'll it'll differ a little bit. How it looks in Cameroon, West Africa compared to Philly or Denver or Buenos Aires. Right?

Michael Swalley: 38:15

The the the outworking of it will be a little different, and that too has been really exciting to be able to walk through the different outworkings of these truths, right, across different cultures and across different languages and, you know, and across all that. So that has been that has been really exciting for us, you know, to to and I'll just if I can just share this I'd

Mark Odland: 38:40

love to hear

Michael Swalley: 38:41

about that. So, you know, so my first experience, right, as I had shared was with this Japanese b boy Ace.

Mark Odland: 38:46

Uh-huh.

Michael Swalley: 38:47

And I remember him asking me, hey. Can I pray in Japanese? Right? Just this beautiful expression. I'm like, of course.

Michael Swalley: 38:54

Right? Like, is, you know, the god of every tongue, tribe, nation. Right? Like, this is our diversity is is beautiful in this. I remember sitting with a man in in Yaounde, Cameroon, and he's speaking French.

Michael Swalley: 39:06

We need a translator. And he was a father. He came from a polygamist home. And and as a son of the third wife, he had very little interaction with his father. And for him and I, we are sitting there all sweaty because we had practiced, and those guys practiced for, like, eight hours at a time.

Michael Swalley: 39:26

Hey.

Michael Swalley: 39:26

I was that was hard for me to keep up.

Michael Swalley: 39:29

But but like we had said beginning, because of that interaction initially physically, I really felt like that broke down some barriers. But for him and I to sit and to connect, like you said, with story, I didn't feel like a treasured son. Right? Same either. And yet within the gospel, right, you have a father that's pursued you, has come after you, who knows you at your worst.

Michael Swalley: 39:54

Right? Because really, as a father, and I'm a father of four, I know your father.

Mark Odland: 39:58

Yeah.

Michael Swalley: 39:59

So one of our main roles is to love our kids, right, through their failure, through all of that to know that they are loved no matter what happens. Yeah. And and to to have that connection. Right? And we're sitting there, translating our skin color is different.

Michael Swalley: 40:15

Our language is different. Our experiences can be very different. But to connect Mhmm. On that level. It's in those moments, Mark.

Michael Swalley: 40:23

And, you know, for those who who are listening who know the word, there's a, you know, scripture where it says, god will do more than we can ever think or imagine. Yeah. Right? When I first was imagining this and praying about this, I didn't even know where Cameroon was. I didn't even know to, like, think or to pray that somehow this would but but here we were sitting with a team of missionaries in Yaounde, Cameroon reaching men all across that city.

Michael Swalley: 40:47

And and when we talked to those missionaries and we said, what would it look like in twenty years? If break free is successful? Right? What will this look like in your culture? And here's what they said.

Michael Swalley: 40:58

We'll see more marriages, more fathers, and the church will be more creative in their disciple making. I mean, just blew us away. It's exactly what we wanna see. And so, Mark, it's those moments. Right?

Michael Swalley: 41:13

Those moments aren't all the time, but it's in those moments that continue to motivate, you know, and and and and bring that tenacity to keep moving forward.

Mark Odland: 41:23

Wow. Thanks. Thanks so much for sharing that. I mean, is

Michael Swalley: 41:27

Yeah.

Mark Odland: 41:27

Powerful and beautiful and hopeful.

Michael Swalley: 41:30

And I hope. Yeah.

Mark Odland: 41:32

It is. It's yeah. It's so hopeful. And you can have the best business plan in the world. Right?

Mark Odland: 41:40

Or the best, like, church strategy plan in the world, but there's something to be said for just those relationships. There's no substitute, right, for those relationships that are one on one. And Right. And and yeah. And interestingly enough too, I mean, it can be easy for us as guys to try to stay in that box of being logical and practical and to to remind ourselves that we can dream.

Mark Odland: 42:03

We can dream big and that God is capable of more than we could we could ever imagine. I mean, that's some of some of our listeners know that Yeah. For for lion counseling, we have kind of, like, five core values. And it's it's provide and protect, kind of traditional masculine values, but also create and love and and leave a legacy. And so there's this sense that in these weird culture wars that we're in right now and what does it mean to be a guy, it can be easy to double down too hard on on on one side and and forget that like like our savior.

Mark Odland: 42:44

Right? I mean, who who cared deeply and who who who wept from time to time. And, you know, it's like it's okay to be a human with unique gifts. It's okay to be a man with unique talents and ways of seeing the world and and creating and and loving is not it's it's not creating and loving isn't like a feminine quality. It's like deeply embedded in us as humans and for us as men too.

Mark Odland: 43:12

Right? So I think I think it's so cool to hear about the way that you're ministering to the hearts of men. Yep. And, I mean, that kind of brings up a question I ask our guests too is I know it's somewhat subjective, but but, again, we're also dovetailing into these universal truths that we're trying to uncover and trying to articulate. You know, what does it mean?

Mark Odland: 43:36

What does it mean to be a man? What does it mean to be a quote unquote real man? I mean, I'm sure that that subject whether it's spoken aloud or not is kind of in the room in these conversations you've had with these with these men who have had different wounds in their life. And so, I mean, from your perspective Yeah. What would you say to that question?

Mark Odland: 43:55

You know, what does it mean to be a man?

Michael Swalley: 44:02

Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, for me, first and foremost, it means being a son. Right? And and and and and I think that is built into who we are.

Michael Swalley: 44:14

As I was sitting down the other day with a guy I work with ex military, you know, as you would think, you know, a man's man in that in that way. And and we were talking, and and he said, you know, Michael, he goes, I've I've never felt like a son. From the start, I've always had to be a father, the responsible responsible one. Right? Moving into that stage, right, too early.

Michael Swalley: 44:35

And and very much, you know, that strong, tough provider, which which are good things. Right? So good. Right? And I think so often, right, we approach these as an either or instead of the both end.

Michael Swalley: 44:49

Right. And he was never able to to press into the sonship that he needed to as a man. Right? The the idea of to have that identity built to not always feel like he had to be the one, right, to provide and and and and that. And so, you know, Mark, as you said, there there is so much to that.

Michael Swalley: 45:10

And and to be able to affirm in him, right, the strengths of provision, the strength of responsibility, as you said, to show up, but also to to to grieve and walk through what was missing. Yeah. And, you know, and and what what wasn't there. So I would just whoo. I'd say that at the heart of manhood is sonship.

Michael Swalley: 45:31

Wow. And I think it makes sense, again, from from someone who is who is a Christian with the worldview that we have a spiritual enemy as well to really come after fatherhood. You know, if if if if you want to take down men, right, to be able to impact their view as being sons, It makes sense why why that's such a a hard area for us. So

Mark Odland: 45:58

Yeah. I mean, I've never I mean, I I really I think that's powerfully where you're framing that is Mhmm. First and foremost, to be to be a man is to be a son. And it's like at a very basic level, we only are in this world because we are a son, because we Alright. And then at a spiritual level, back to full circle, back to you talk about adoption, being adopted by a loving father who's been pursuing us our whole lives.

Mark Odland: 46:27

Yeah. Whether we know it or not and and then I think as we're talking through it it also strikes me that a really strong like really powerful good trait for us as guys is courage, but it's not just courage to and again back to the either or it can feel like this touchy world, you know, a touchy feely world of feelings is like it might feel like it's this soft, it's weak, it's feminine this stuff, but the truth is we are created to be emotional beings too and if we ignore them and pretend that they're not there, it's like neglecting the electricity and the wires in our house or something like the electricity. It's like we're yeah things are gonna start to spark and they're gonna get out of whack and and something might light on fire, right? And so to be able to have the courage to work your butt off, to provide for your family, to protect your family, and the courage to face hard things within yourself, that's that's the missing piece I think for a lot of the guys that I work with is they've come to that point where they it's like the check engine light has been on for way too long in their heart, and they're like, I can't keep driving this thing.

Mark Odland: 47:42

I I have to take a look at it. And to know that, to to find a solid brother, a pastor, a brother in Christ, a solid Christian counselor, someone who can speak truth and also create a space where they can tell their story and and really there can be some honesty and some authentic care in that process. And I think you put it so well to how did you say to grieve and move through those wounds. Because if we don't have the courage to find some way to do that as guys then we are depriving ourselves and our families of so much and I I kind of imagine our father in heaven just kind of, like, feeling a little sad about it. Like, I I I have so much more for you.

Mark Odland: 48:37

I I want so much more for you. And Right. And sometimes all it takes is is a first step. Right? A a first step to to open up a little bit, to go to that guy's group, to call up that old friend, to set up that first counseling appointment, to just have an open heart, a way to connect, to get some support, to get some help, to get some community.

Mark Odland: 49:00

Right? So, yeah, being a son is a powerful way to frame what it means to be a man. I love that.

Michael Swalley: 49:09

Hey,

Michael Swalley: 49:11

Mark. On that so when my check engine light comes on in my car, often I just, like, cover it

Michael Swalley: 49:17

up and I ignore it. Right? I got that.

Mark Odland: 49:18

And it

Michael Swalley: 49:19

it takes my car breaking down, right, getting the tow truck, having which just happened to me a few months ago

Mark Odland: 49:25

Yeah.

Michael Swalley: 49:25

To really to really pay attention. Do you find with a lot of us as men that it takes those catastrophic moments at times to pay attention? And and if so, are there ways for us to with other men to maybe help them notice that engine light before it really becomes a catastrophe?

Mark Odland: 49:46

Yeah. I mean, that that's that gets right to the heart of, you know, what I do at line counseling. I mean, unfortunately, oftentimes, it is kind of that crisis point that brings yeah. Because what's worked for so many of the guys that we see is just buckling down, putting your head down, working harder, grinding through it.

Michael Swalley: 50:06

Yeah.

Mark Odland: 50:06

I mean, the the quote quote unquote, I just kinda moved past it. I got over it. But what they really did was they sidestepped something that's that's still there. They it's in the back of their mind. It's in their heart.

Mark Odland: 50:21

And just like physical wounds, if if they're not attended to, if they aren't at least scrubbed out and bandaged up and sometimes stitched up or a broken bone that isn't set, our body will try to heal it, but it's it might not heal straight. It might heal in the in the wrong way. Right? And so some of the guys come to me and they're like, you know what? This thing never healed quite right.

Mark Odland: 50:43

Or some guys are just they don't even know what's wrong. They need they need a back to the mechanic metaphor, they need a full diagnostic on the car like just run it through, figure out what is wrong with the engine because all I know is my wife wants a divorce or Yeah. My adult kids won't talk to me or I have to go into the boardroom and now I'm starting to have a racing heart and I feel like I'm gonna have a panic attack and it's never happened before. Right? It's it's stuff like that or

Michael Swalley: 51:19

or it's

Mark Odland: 51:19

like or I'm on my vacation and I can't stop checking my phone and even enjoying these beautiful kids and beautiful wife that I have right in front of me and I'm I'm I'm disconnected or I'm I'm drinking a little too much if I'm honest or it's these things that sneak up on us as guys. Right? Yeah. Because Yeah. When we're in physical or emotional pain, we naturally just scream for relief And there are certain habits that can give us short term relief, but then long term, they're destructive.

Mark Odland: 51:54

Right? And so Yep. Yep. So I think, back to the question of can you catch it early? I mean, that would be my hope like I mean part of its awareness it's like a guy listening to this podcast today and saying yeah I'm not quite to that point yet but I am seeing some warning signs and if I can do maintenance on the car essentially ahead of time, actually get the oil changed, actually get the brakes fixed before it becomes a disaster, it saves everyone so much time and money and pain.

Mark Odland: 52:28

It's like it's like the best investment that you could ever make. And Yeah. And for one guy, it might be making that first phone call. Right? And and Right.

Mark Odland: 52:36

Into a Christian counselor like we do at Lyon. For another guy, it's like, hey. I haven't prayed, like, in three months. It's just like getting on your knees in the bedroom at at night and be like, alright, god. Here I am.

Mark Odland: 52:49

Like, I cannot do this Yeah. By myself. Right. It's like, I I surrender. I like, show me what's next.

Mark Odland: 52:55

What do I do? But, again, it's like that small step of courage of having the guts to say, even though this feels weak, it's maybe showing some of the best the biggest strength that I have, the courage that I have to take the step.

Michael Swalley: 53:11

Yeah. Yeah. That's oh, Mark, that's so good. And I wanna give a quick just shout out to my wife if I can, because for those of us who are married, there's a unique mystery in becoming one with someone. Right?

Michael Swalley: 53:24

And don't understand that fully. But there was also then because of that powerful nature, my tendency to hide was sometimes more strong with Ellen than with anybody else.

Mark Odland: 53:36

Sure.

Michael Swalley: 53:37

And as I started to become more and more just brutally honest with her with these things

Mark Odland: 53:42

Yeah.

Michael Swalley: 53:42

God worked in that in incredible ways. My wife has been so gracious and so forgiving in those moments, and that was what I was most scared of. Right? If I'm really known. And so I just one, I just wanna just Alan has been an incredible partner, and and there's something unique.

Michael Swalley: 54:03

And not that single guys couldn't find this or divorced from guys, but, like, for those of us who are, the way God speaks and uses our wives, when we're when we're open with them and take that step, I was so scared, Mark, to do that. And through counseling and through community to be able to do that more and more, I've seen God work through that in uniquely powerful ways to really be known.

Mark Odland: 54:29

That's that's so cool, Mike. I mean, that's I I mean, I appreciate you sharing that, you know, and Mhmm. And honoring your wife that way and and just being modeling that vulnerability for other guys. I mean, I I don't have it all figured out as a therapist. I mean, that like, the joke in the therapy world is that we all have impostor syndrome, they call it.

Mark Odland: 54:50

It's like, we all feel like we're this big fake, and who do we think we are helping other people? And and so what we do is we and I've get get your own therapy. I I've done it, like, three rounds trying to get old old wounds healed up, and it's it's made me a better dad, a better husband, a better friend, better better therapist. Right? And it's a it's a tool.

Mark Odland: 55:17

Yep. You know? We we wanna be able to feel a sense of I mean, that word integrity. Right? You know?

Mark Odland: 55:24

It's Yeah. Oh, yeah. Integration. It's it's not be different faces and different masks and different disjointed selves depending on who we're with and where we are, but to have some degree of integrity means that there's those parts of us are communicating with each other. There's some glue that holds our identity together.

Mark Odland: 55:44

And and our our you know, things like prayer and friendship and encouragement and and counseling and all sorts of other good good strategies. They're they're those things, right, that can help help glue us back together with god's help. Right? And Yeah. I'm mixing a lot of metaphors.

Mark Odland: 56:06

I mean, you can't glue a car back together, so I'm I'm not sure.

Michael Swalley: 56:10

I don't know either. Right? Like, I'd probably try.

Mark Odland: 56:16

Alright. So alright. This is

Michael Swalley: 56:18

this is good stuff.

Mark Odland: 56:19

This is good stuff. So, you know, the other question that we ask our guests besides besides what is what is a man is, you know, through our lens as Christians, we know that this life in some ways is but a vapor. It's Yep. Fleeting, And yet there's something so important about this earthly life that God chose to create it this way. Mhmm.

Mark Odland: 56:41

And so even though things in this world aren't, you know, some things aren't really lasting. There is this sense of legacy that a lot of the guys we work with are thinking about. Yep. What are the ripple effects that go out in time, you know, even after I'm gone? What does what does that look like?

Mark Odland: 57:03

And so this is a personal question, I guess, but, you

Michael Swalley: 57:06

know Yeah.

Mark Odland: 57:06

For you, Michael Swalley, in high school known as Sway McLeod. Yeah. That's a solid nickname. I can't remember who gave it to you, but

Michael Swalley: 57:16

On the football field

Mark Odland: 57:17

Probably

Michael Swalley: 57:17

on Todd. I'll share that maybe when if you, me, and Todd ever, you know,

Michael Swalley: 57:21

do a podcast, but I won't show this. But yes.

Michael Swalley: 57:25

Yes. Still use it as my email.

Mark Odland: 57:27

That's our clickbait for the next podcast. Keep keep There you go. Stay tuned. Stay tuned. But, yeah, for you for you, what what would you like your legacy to be?

Mark Odland: 57:38

What would you like the impact to be? Well, how would you even like to be remembered? I mean, I I know it's like, do we remember our great great grandparents? Maybe just an old photo. So that that's a tricky one.

Mark Odland: 57:50

Right?

Michael Swalley: 57:50

But Right.

Mark Odland: 57:51

Think you know what I'm getting at. Like, what I do.

Michael Swalley: 57:53

Yeah. I do. I do. You know, Mark, that is I've really thought through this. Right?

Michael Swalley: 58:02

And and we do. We serve a generational god who, right, will work through the generations. I really wanna be known, ultimately, not even not even as a man who loved God, but as a son who was loved by God. And it's this idea that that then would free me up, but for my kids, right, to know. And and how, you know, dad, you know, was quick to apologize, was was open about his hardship and mistakes, but but, man, god really loved him.

Michael Swalley: 58:35

Right? Can I speak about the grace of god in that way? Can can people see that, wow, he is a beloved son? And that show up then in the way I provide, in the passion that I have, in the way that I can respond to my kids, in the way that I can love my wife. And so, you know, it's that he is loved.

Michael Swalley: 58:55

Wow. And and that has freed him up. And and I will say, just, Steve, I I I stole that from Judas Smith, a pastor out in in in Oregon. He was he was sharing about that, but I've taken that and really run with it, Mark. And and and for that, I think it will give us boldness.

Michael Swalley: 59:15

Right? When we look at it, I won't go too much into this, but at least the the one disciple that was recorded at being at the cross there might have been more, but at least the only one that it was recorded, we heard that all fled, all fled, all abandoned, but John was at the cross. Mhmm. Right? And when you read John's gospel, what really comes out, especially at the end, is that he makes much of him being loved by Jesus.

Michael Swalley: 59:42

And he makes much of being beloved. So how do we show up when it's hard? How do we show up when everyone leaves? And I think that's also part of the definition of a man. Right?

Michael Swalley: 59:51

You show up when it's hard. Wow. Do you do you believe you're loved? That that it's what I want, Mark. Is that

Mark Odland: 01:00:01

Wow. Well, that that is I really appreciate you sharing that. And Yeah. Yeah. And, man, and and, you know, if if I don't know.

Mark Odland: 01:00:15

I'm just kind of thinking like, man, the truth is you are, brother. You know? Yeah. By so many. Yeah.

Mark Odland: 01:00:21

Yeah. And most importantly by God. But Mhmm. But but that is the truth. And it feels it feels like a little for for so many men, life and identity is performance based.

Michael Swalley: 01:00:36

Mhmm.

Mark Odland: 01:00:36

And everything from trying to get a wife, to get a job, to find success in this world is some of it's based on performance, let's be honest. And so to believe that our foundation of our identity could be someone who is loved deeply by our father in heaven, It's counterintuitive and it feels risky, my man, because if I just sit down and just believe I'm loved, am I gonna lose my edge? Am I gonna lose my motivation? Am I gonna lose my fire? And what I think we discover, what we've discovered, and what millions or billions of other Christians have discovered before us is that if you take that risk of allowing yourself to take off the armor and to to try as hard as it can be with our wounds to embrace that love, that deep love of our father.

Mark Odland: 01:01:37

We have all the motivation we need because it it it it springs forth into love that pours out toward others and and gratitude and and purpose. Right?

Michael Swalley: 01:01:49

Yeah. Yeah. And and and that's real time too. It's like, I'm on a podcast. Am I doing well?

Michael Swalley: 01:01:56

Are people gonna like this? Are they gonna listen? Right?

Mark Odland: 01:01:58

Is Yeah.

Michael Swalley: 01:01:59

Is Mark ever gonna invite me back? You know, it's like the real time struggle

Mark Odland: 01:02:03

For sure.

Michael Swalley: 01:02:04

Of that. You know? It's there.

Michael Swalley: 01:02:05

And and, Mark, again, if I can just say one more thing too. Yeah. Just with my father as well. Right? It's not an either or.

Michael Swalley: 01:02:13

Right? He he struggled, but he was a very loving father from everything I've heard, and people speak so highly of him. He's a good father. Yeah. And he struggled.

Michael Swalley: 01:02:22

Right? And and there's generational pain, but he was a good father. Yeah. And he loved well. Yeah.

Michael Swalley: 01:02:29

And in that struggle. And so I also just wanna honor him too. Yeah. Yeah.

Mark Odland: 01:02:34

Yeah. That that that's yeah. And that's that's so so powerful to hear because that's another thing that the guys that I work with are afraid of, that they they're afraid that therapy means throwing their parents under the bus Mhmm. Or dishonoring them in some way. And and no.

Mark Odland: 01:02:52

That's not the case. It it's like you said, it's it's just saying even good parents, even loving parents, or people who are a mixed bag, like like like I am as well, like, loving to the best of our ability given where our limitations and our own woundedness, it's important for us as men to hear that we can still grieve what wasn't there, even if a lot of good was there, And and we can still heal from those things. And then I guess the other word I would just share with the guys listening out there is in light of what you just said and modeled for for for us is if you're out there and and you are just wracked by a failure, a perceived failure, by guilt, by, heartache, just to hear, you know, hear from me, to hear from us that, we are not defined by our biggest failure. Right? There's so much more to what makes a man than than our biggest failure, and that's what gets the airtime.

Mark Odland: 01:03:54

But, again, if we come full circle to know that there can be love, there can be forgiveness, there can be a fresh start. And if at the end of the day, my identity is not my failure or perceived failure, but my identity as a son who's deeply loved by a god who wants nothing but the very best for us and has a plan and a purpose for us. Like, that's such good news, and and there's hope in that. Right? And even if you're grinding it out for a year and you're in Anaheim, California Yeah.

Mark Odland: 01:04:24

Dancing with a a Japanese b boy Right. I mean, might be only a few guys listening who are actually replicating that at this moment.

Michael Swalley: 01:04:33

Right? Yeah.

Michael Swalley: 01:04:34

But

Mark Odland: 01:04:36

metaphorically metaphorically, if you are doing that right now, Just wait. Be faithful. Wait. Wait. Be faithful.

Mark Odland: 01:04:47

See it through. Gotta let you know if if there's a brick wall and it keeps being a brick wall, maybe there's a new direction. But if we continue to to surrender and and say, alright. I'm here. I'm here.

Mark Odland: 01:04:59

Show me the way. Like, things do tend to work work themselves out, and and we end up and then we look back, and we see his hand at work along along the way, along the journey. So, well, you we've you shared some powerful things, and just really grateful grateful for you. I'll call you Sway.

Michael Swalley: 01:05:19

Thanks, Mark.

Mark Odland: 01:05:20

Call you normally. And

Michael Swalley: 01:05:21

They call you I'll call you Tang, and that's for another podcast here. Unless you've explained it.

Mark Odland: 01:05:25

I have not explained it. And Okay. Throw in the comments let's just say it it has to do with an orange drink from high school and a t shirt that I may have worn at times. And but it's been it's been a blessing reconnecting. It's been too long too long sway, but what is there anything else you'd like to I'd love to hear about how people can find you, how people could learn more about break free, or if they feel moved to be part of it in some way.

Michael Swalley: 01:06:01

Yeah.

Mark Odland: 01:06:02

Praying, financial support, finding a place to to dance.

Michael Swalley: 01:06:07

Right. Yes.

Mark Odland: 01:06:07

Right? How do people find you?

Michael Swalley: 01:06:09

Yes. Yeah. For all the breakdancers listening, you know, go on our website to find practice spots, but our website, Mark, is break free twenty twenty four. K. We added the twenty twenty four because there's a lot of break free ministries.

Michael Swalley: 01:06:21

Right? Break free, set free, break free.

Mark Odland: 01:06:23

Yeah.

Michael Swalley: 01:06:24

And so the twenty twenty four is acts twenty twenty four of Paul saying, you know, if I but give my life for the gospel. Right? This is this is all my life is, is to to be faithful, right, to that. But break free twenty twenty four is is how you can find us at our website, break free ministries on Instagram. You'll see a lot of the workings around the world and what what god is doing through men.

Michael Swalley: 01:06:45

But really at the heart of what we do, Mark, is that we wanna see sonship in a fatherless generation, like really see men, right, find their sonship, and so would love to engage, would love to interact. Right? And and for those who can't relate to hip hop, that's alright. But but to that, I I pray they can. So it's break free 2024, and then on Instagram, it's break free ministries.

Michael Swalley: 01:07:10

And we'd love to just hear and engage with people.

Mark Odland: 01:07:13

That's awesome. That's awesome, Mike. Well Yeah. I have one last question that might be the most profound and meaningful question, or it might be this might be sarcastic, but given that your your journey started in Melbourne. Yes.

Mark Odland: 01:07:29

And given that breakdancing was in the Olympics and we got exposed to that one now viral Australian lady with her kangaroo break dancing moves. I just want to know if you have any strong opinions either way and how God might be connecting the two of you in the future in some kind of I don't know. I just I'm just curious.

Michael Swalley: 01:07:53

Oh, I was hoping you wouldn't ask this, Mark.

Michael Swalley: 01:07:55

I was really hoping you would it pains me, right, that the lone memory of most people is of the kangaroo dancer from Australia. Oh, who single handedly changed our culture with that one that one move. By making it cooler?

Mark Odland: 01:08:16

By making it much cooler.

Michael Swalley: 01:08:18

Much cooler. Much cooler. Right? Yeah. The the hip hop community loves loves that.

Michael Swalley: 01:08:25

But it hasn't escaped me. It hasn't escaped me, right, that the viral piece is is where it started. So we will see the twenty thirty two Olympics are in Australia. So we will see how God brings these two together. So wait and see.

Michael Swalley: 01:08:39

Wait and see.

Mark Odland: 01:08:40

Sounds good. Alright. Thanks everyone for listening. And and, again, for anyone who's looking for a little support, feel free to do a free call at escapethecagenow.com and we'd be happy to do that free phone call with you. And if you enjoyed anything about today's podcast, have any experiences that feel connected to this talk today I had with Michael Swalley, feel free to drop some comments below and we'd love to respond to them.

Mark Odland: 01:09:05

Take care everybody. Bye.