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Join feminist coaches Taina Brown and Becky Mollenkamp for casual (and often deep) conversations about business, current events, politics, pop culture, and more. We’re not perfect activists or allies! These are our real-time, messy feminist perspectives on the world around us.
This podcast is for you if you find yourself asking questions like:
• Why is feminism important today?
• What is intersectional feminism?
• Can capitalism be ethical?
• What does liberation mean?
• Equity vs. equality — what's the difference and why does it matter?
• What does a Trump victory mean for my life?
• What is mutual aid?
• How do we engage in collective action?
• Can I find safety in community?
• What's a feminist approach to ... ?
• What's the feminist perspective on ...?
Becky Mollenkamp (00:01)
Welcome to Messy Liberation. Let's get started.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (00:06)
Hi.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:07)
Hello. It's a motherfucking Monday.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (00:09)
let me tell you it's a Monday, which means that's right. It's first of all, it's a Monday.
It's a new week. And before 8 a.m., my child had already told me that I had a lot of gray hair, that my arms
Taina Brown she/hers (00:22)
gosh.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (00:23)
were getting saggy, and and
Taina Brown she/hers (00:25)
Excuse you, son.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (00:27)
that most of his friends' parents are in their twenties and thirties. So dad and I are really old.
So anyway, now listen, if you listen enough, you know I love my kid and he's mostly incredibly sweet. However, he does know how to push a button. Uh-huh. Well, honestly.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:37)
Yeah. He's also honest.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (00:41)
When he said that about my arms, I didn't say anything because I thought, you know what? If my arms are saggy, my arms are saggy and there's nothing wrong with saggy arms. Saggy arms
Taina Brown she/hers (00:47)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (00:48)
are fine arms, right? So, but it is hard in those moments to it challenges you to not be like no or don't say that to people or whatever. It's like, okay, I don't wanna Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:56)
Yeah, that's inappropriate,
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (01:00)
So anyway, I'm off to a Monday. You haven't had much sleep. I've been insulted by a ten year old. What do you want to talk about?
Taina Brown she/hers (01:07)
We're quite a pair, aren't we?
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (01:09)
We are. I thought we could talk about something that's kind of trending online and that I think is pretty interesting personally, which is
Taina Brown she/hers (01:14)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (01:17)
Symone Sanders and Eugene, I don't know his last name, I can't think of it at the moment. from MSNBC that interviewed Hassan Piker. and there it's the vid clips of it are making the rounds, which ultimately, let's be honest, probably means they did what they wanted, right? Which is
Taina Brown she/hers (01:32)
Yeah,
yeah, they're in the zeitgeist. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (01:33)
I hadn't I didn't even know the pair of them had
a podcast until yesterday.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:36)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (01:37)
So there you go. I you know, I guess I shouldn't be so cynical because maybe that's not what it was about. But yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:43)
I mean, maybe not for them, but maybe for like studio heads, know, like
executive people.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (01:48)
Certainly the interview has been effective in getting people to talk about their podcast.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:51)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (01:52)
So to that end, good on them, I guess.
But so the discourse I've been seeing about this interview in the the with the people that I tend to follow, which tend to be
Taina Brown she/hers (01:59)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (02:00)
I follow a lot of Black progressive, Black leftist, Black feminist sort of thinkers. And so that
Will explain why my rhetoric around this has been a lot of really thoughtful, considered insight around the what's the right word? Just about the approach and the tactic of someone like Symone Sanders, who is a Black woman, and Eugene, I'm gonna find his name when you start talking, who is
Taina Brown she/hers (02:23)
You
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (02:24)
a Black man, and having them talk about this issue where Hassan, at one point, and this is the part I wanted to focus in on, brings up
Sort of this comparison of of what's happening in Palestine and the authoritative structure there, right? The pa the oppressive structure that's there,
Taina Brown she/hers (02:40)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (02:41)
and people within Palestine trying to fight back, and how the, you know, Hamas then has been branded terrorists and saying that that sort of violence against a state against systemic violence,
Is always viewed differently than the violence that the that the system and the oppressors are raining down on the oppressed, One
Taina Brown she/hers (02:58)
Okay. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (03:02)
is just accepted and the other is is labeled as bad and terrorist. And Symone
Taina Brown she/hers (03:08)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (03:08)
Sanders, he compares that to the the people who had fought back against police violence, And have shown up to protest. And sometimes those protests have gotten violent.
And saying that, you know, it's similar to those sorts of protests. And Symone Sanders says, whoa, whoa, whoa, I've been to police protests and I don't like you comparing me to Hamas, right? Like getting this deeply offended sort of thing. And so a lot of the critique I have seen that I think is really thoughtful and good, and what I thought we could talk about is stuff we've talked about before, which is people who are part of the system are part of the system.
regardless of what they look like. In the same way women
Taina Brown she/hers (03:47)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (03:48)
hold a marginalized identity, you can either use that to try to oppress those who hold more marginalized identities, or you can use that to find empathy and understanding for those who hold margin more marginalized
Taina Brown she/hers (03:58)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (03:58)
identities and be part of the fight. And the same way though, that someone who is Black, brown, you know, immigrant, whatever can also be part of upholding the systems. And you know, s I sent you a video which I'm gonna link to in here of a really thoughtful man who
made a wonderful critique about this also. And his point was more about that part. But I would I thought it'd be fun to talk about the not fun, but I thought it'd be interesting and maybe not really fun. Educational
Taina Brown she/hers (04:21)
I was gonna say fun. I don't know if that's the word I would use.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (04:25)
Educational and valuable to perhaps talk a little bit about the role that violence plays in revolutions and in liberation. Because
Taina Brown she/hers (04:31)
and movements. Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (04:34)
she, you know, there there was this like Hassan bringing this idea that maybe Hamas
Is fighting th their tactics, which have been labeled as terrorism, that that fight, that violence is in response to violence. And that we need to examine that versus just writing it off. because that writing
Taina Brown she/hers (04:53)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (04:54)
that off is exactly what those in power want us to do.
so I thought
Taina Brown she/hers (04:58)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (04:58)
maybe we could talk a little bit about violence and its role in revolution, because I think
A lot of people who say they're here for the revolution aren't really ready for the revolution because they want it to be a really peaceful, let's hold hands, hands across the world kind of change.
Taina Brown she/hers (05:11)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (07:40)
So that's
Taina Brown she/hers (07:41)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (07:41)
where that's the starting point, Taina. Where would you like to see us go?
Taina Brown she/hers (07:44)
Well, before I say anything, I just want to say I'm tired of talking about this.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (07:49)
Let's talk about then.
Taina Brown she/hers (07:50)
No, I think it's a good conversation to have because it is relevant, right? Like apparently that podcast episode just aired or whatever, or just went viral regardless of when it aired because of the topic of conversation and how the conversation was handled by the host.
But also, there's a part of me that's like, I'm fucking tired of talking about this. When you texted me, I thought about it for three hours. Because I was like, do I want to talk about this? I kind of don't, but also I don't have any other ideas. But also, it's a good conversation to have. It's always a good conversation to have. But that doesn't negate.
how exhaustive of a conversation it can be. Because when we're talking about violence, and this is the point that Hassan is making in the podcast, that state-sanctioned violence becomes invisible because it's sanctioned by the state, so it becomes normalized. In that way, the reaction by Hamas and Palestinians to
apartheid, israeli apartheid in palestine and now genocide is is is that's a response right like martin luther king fucking said it like and he was a non-violent activist during the civil rights right like he said violence is the voice of the oppressed like or or you know something along those lines don't don't the riot yeah yeah don't don't but
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (09:13)
said a riot. Riots are the something like that. But yeah, same thing.
Taina Brown she/hers (09:17)
when people think riot they think of a violent
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (09:19)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (09:19)
thing happening right
And so, but we don't ever consider the violence that happens before that instigates that response, right? And so what I want people to understand, if you understand nothing else out of this fucking conversation that we have had multiple times and we'll probably have to continue to have because of the fucked up world that we live in right now. And sorry, I sound really cynical. I'm going on four hours of sleep. So I'm really tired of all this bullshit that like.
people have to contend with because it takes away from the real conversations that need to be happening. It's a distraction tactic. It is fucking intentional to get people to niggle at and figure out where does violence start. We know where violence starts. If you look up the definition of violence by the World Health Organization,
It is not just physical injury. It is psychological harm. is deprivation. It is basically anything that will not allow a person to thrive as a human being. So that can be poverty is a form of violence, right? Not just police brutality. Discrimination is a form of violence, right? If you're not getting a raise or if you're not getting jobs because of who you are as a person or who you love or who you decide to.
spend your life with or the kind of politics that you have. Like that's a form of violence. That's a form of structural state sanctioned violence. So violence is not just physical harm or injury. It is anything that deprives a person from being able to live their best fucking life for lack of a better term. And so when we're talking about this violence that's happening in Palestine, when we're talking about the violence of people processing against police brutality, like
Having six cameras on your block, six police cams on your block, but no streetlights is a form of violence, right? Getting tear gassed or undercover police trying to start a fucking riot at a protest because they do that is a form of violence. If you get taken in for questioning by the cops and they lie to your face about something which they are allowed to do when they are questioning you.
They're allowed to lie to get what they want. And you believe that lie and it puts you in a bind. That is a form of violence. Right. And so this is when I saw those clips, I was just like, why do these people have a podcast? Why? did
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (11:51)
Yeah, it was
Taina Brown she/hers (11:52)
this is what the hell? Like, have they have they never heard of Angela Davis? Have they never read freedom is a constant struggle?
Like they are just they were just presenting themselves as being so ignorant of what is happening and not being able to connect the dots which first of all let's like forget the fact that like let's lay aside the fact that like processing against police brutality is the same thing as like Hamas trying to like take their land back basically after being
forcibly removed and killed and suffering a genocide, right? Let's take that off the table.
Cops in the US are trained by IDF.
They're trained by Israeli Defense Forces. So even if you don't want to draw parallels between Black bodies here and Brown bodies over there, there's that connection. When I was in grad school at Georgia State University, their campus security was trained by Israeli Defense Forces. Campus security on a college campus where 18-year-olds and 19-year-olds are going to get an education.
trained by Israeli defense forces. For what? Why? Why is that necessary? If they're there to ensure the safety of the students, why are they being trained on how to put a knee on somebody's neck that could potentially kill them or has killed people in the past, right? We know this is true.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (13:14)
We all got to watch it sadly over and over and over again when George Floyd
Taina Brown she/hers (13:16)
Yes, yes, yes.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (13:19)
showed us, you know? well, can I just quickly be and and I love I love listening to you just diatribe because it's great. Because it's usually I feel like I'm always the one ranting. And so it's I love it. I
Taina Brown she/hers (13:28)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (13:29)
love hearing you. But I just want to quickly shout out because I feel bad that I didn't remember his name, Eugene Daniels. So it's Symone Sa Sanders, I think it's Symone Sanders Townsend is her full name, and Eugene Daniels. And the podcast is called Clock It. And they both are MSNBC sort of folks. And I think this is one of the important
Things for people to understand as well. Because I think of my mom, and I don't know if she'll be listening, but I remember talking to her about APAC, and she had no clue what APAC was. And my mom listens to a non-stop stream of MSNBC. Like that, she
Taina Brown she/hers (13:57)
Hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (13:58)
loves Rachel Madow and no no slight to Rachel Madow. I also enjoy her content, but all my mom listens to is MSNBC. She's a pretty classic sort of liberal versus leftist,
Taina Brown she/hers (14:08)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (14:09)
right? And so when the
Mainstream media, which in even including like MSNBC, they are also part of the system that is designed to uphold
Taina Brown she/hers (14:20)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (14:21)
the belief that Israel is one valid state that has a right to exist and a country that should be there,
Taina Brown she/hers (14:26)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (14:27)
and that is part of the like maintaining the PR for Israel to continue to do what's doing. And so if if you've not heard of
Taina Brown she/hers (14:34)
Yeah. The only democratic
nation in the Middle East. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (14:39)
So if
you haven't heard of APAC, and you've my mom listens to nothing but MSNBC, right? Like she she would never listen to Fox. It's not like she's sitting on Fox and hasn't heard about APAC. She's sitting
Taina Brown she/hers (14:47)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (14:47)
there listening to liberal, quote unquote, like liberal programming and had never heard of APAC because they aren't talking about it there. And so these two people
Taina Brown she/hers (14:54)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (14:55)
who work for a theoretically like progressive, and I'm gonna put air quotes
Taina Brown she/hers (14:59)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (14:59)
around that because it's not progressive, it's liberal. But they, you know, those folks who are listening to that kind of content, they are or who are
providing that kind of content, they are under the same restraints. They are because the media is is funded largely by corporations, right?
Taina Brown she/hers (15:16)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (15:17)
Who are run by, as we now know, the Robert Crafts of the world,
Taina Brown she/hers (15:20)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (15:20)
who will put their, who will use their metaphorical knee to the neck to make sure that the programming and the content, the messaging that's going out is still aligned with this larger worldview that the US has
Manufactured. And let me tell you, I am reading right now, I'm almost finished with The Hundred Years' War on Palestine by Rashid Halidi.
Taina Brown she/hers (15:41)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (15:42)
And I can't recommend it enough, although deep breaths, because don't read it when you're tired, Tayina, because it will enrage you. But if
Taina Brown she/hers (15:49)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (15:50)
you're someone like me who has for a long time, and we talked about this last week when we were talking about Macklemore, if you're the kind of person who sort of excused yourself
From a lot of that, the issues around Israel, because you're like, there's all this histor history and historical context that I don't fully understand and blah, blah, blah. Then like I'm at a place of we need to start, we gotta stop being able to use that as our excuse to turn a blind
Taina Brown she/hers (16:11)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (16:12)
eye to genocide. And if what you need is some historical context to be able to like do what's right, this book is really, really valuable in that. It's written by a Palestinian who l has lived through it. His father was a part of resistance, he
Lays out the last hundred years of politics, which you know really includes the creation
Taina Brown she/hers (16:32)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (16:33)
of first the birth of the idea of an Israel, the state of Israel, and then the birth of the state of Israel, and now the defense of this state of Israel and all of the Zionism
Taina Brown she/hers (16:39)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (16:42)
that it was that was seeped into that. And it's really, really a valuable read in understanding how we we in the US have not just been passively sitting aside.
With all of this, but if we've been actively funding, actively participating, apt
Taina Brown she/hers (16:53)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (16:57)
act actively upholding, and the media is part of act of actively upholding that. And so what Symone and Eugene did with this podcast is really just show up and say, We're part of the system. And the system's working for
Taina Brown she/hers (17:07)
Yeah, maintaining that status quo.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (17:10)
us. So we want to help maintain the system. And it just
Taina Brown she/hers (17:12)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (17:13)
really shines a light, I think, on how there can be this real disconnect between your identity and your understanding of liberation.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:22)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (17:22)
Right. I
think you can understand liberation. Hassan. And in in many ways, I know why a lot of Black folks are upset about this, because it sucks to have to say that somebody who is far less melanated, Hassan Piker, is
Taina Brown she/hers (17:34)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (17:34)
showing up with the actually the more progressive argument in that discussion than the two
Taina Brown she/hers (17:37)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (17:39)
folks who are Black who really should i in theory, right? You would expect yeah. And I'm not here to lecture about them.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:42)
They should understand this. They should understand this.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (17:45)
So again, I wanted to just go back and talk a little bit about like Hassan's argument to reinforce that.
Yeah, violence is a part of this. And I think
Taina Brown she/hers (17:53)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (17:54)
history wants us to believe. And whenever I have like cause I have posted things about this in the past where I have talked about like, what do you how do you think you get liberation? How do you think you get more rights? If if it
Taina Brown she/hers (18:03)
The oppressor
is not gonna give up power.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (18:06)
And
people always love to come back to guess who they like to talk about when they talk about nonviolent action. Well, him too, but even earlier.
Taina Brown she/hers (18:10)
Alma K. Jr. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (18:13)
Gandhi. Always. Yeah, we always hear about Gandhi.
Taina Brown she/hers (18:15)
yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (18:17)
And first of all, I think it shows a real lack of understanding because guess how we're not educated well in the US about world politics. So just to be
Taina Brown she/hers (18:22)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (18:23)
clear, like in the same way we know very little about Israel here, we know very little about any other country. Of course.
Taina Brown she/hers (18:27)
Well, and part of that is on purpose, right? Because the
US, first of all, the United States is a very young country, incredibly young. We are a baby country.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (18:34)
Yes. Yes. Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (18:38)
So the idea of international politics is a novel idea for most people who live in the US. Also, because of the way that the United States was founded, there's this manifest.
destiny ideology that like we came here and this was our land and it's our God given right which by the way what the fuck does that sound like first of all does that not sound like Israel right right right yes we're the same we're the
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (19:04)
Kind of why I guess we have to support the colonial project of Israel because we are colonialists as well. We were colonizers. And so yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (19:12)
same we're exactly the fucking same and so yeah and so
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (19:14)
Colonizer's gonna support colonizers.
Taina Brown she/hers (19:17)
the way that
international politics and history is taught in our education system, it's taught in a way to make the U.S. look good. Why wouldn't it be?
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (19:28)
Yeah, and
even more though, it's also taught to reinforce the bullshit that you're talking
Taina Brown she/hers (19:33)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (19:34)
about of trying to make the oppressed believe that the best way to get change is by being peaceful,
Taina Brown she/hers (19:41)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (19:41)
presentable, calm, polite, you know, respectable. Exactly. And so
Taina Brown she/hers (19:44)
respectable, respectability politics. That's all it is, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (19:48)
We are taught about these nonviolent movements and taught about something like both of these cases, both of the things you mentioned, or the one you mentioned, the one I mentioned, MLK and Gandhi are two primo examples of this, where we are taught in school one version of history that is inside of a tiny little bubble, in and of itself, is true. Gandhi was
Taina Brown she/hers (20:07)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (20:07)
a real proponent for nonviolent action. He did make
You know, he did help to make create real change. Same for MLK. They both really firmly
Taina Brown she/hers (20:14)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (20:15)
believed in nonviolence. They wanted to get at change without having to have violence happen. They
Taina Brown she/hers (20:20)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (20:20)
both really believed in those things and showed up that way. And both of them, if you actually pop the bubble and learn the truth of all the stuff that goes around it, they were bolstered by lots of violent action, right? The
Taina Brown she/hers (20:33)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (20:34)
only reason their voices were ever heard was because all this other violence created the
A situation where the power structure had to listen because they were like afraid, right? That
Taina Brown she/hers (20:44)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (20:47)
was what got them to finally listen. And so what happens in this, it's like a repeated cycle has happened throughout history. The oppressor sets the sets the rules by which you have to play, right? And then when the only people who actually challenge those rules, and usually through violence or through
Taina Brown she/hers (21:04)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (21:05)
What we would call violence, even if it's like a broken glas I'm not always talking about, by the way, harming another human, right? Violence, like you said, also looks like a lot of things that oppressors do that are not harming bodies.
Taina Brown she/hers (21:11)
mm-hmm. yeah. yeah. yeah. having no
clean water in Flint, Michigan for how many years now? violence.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (21:19)
Violence,
right? No electricity at the moment. And what is it, Gary, I think? Like right
Taina Brown she/hers (21:23)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (21:24)
those things are violence as well. And so riots, breaking windows, setting things on fire, again, things where we where there may not be any physical bodily harm caused to
Taina Brown she/hers (21:32)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (21:33)
someone. But when it happens by the those of that are oppressed, it's called violence, terrorism, all sorts of words that aren't applied on the
Taina Brown she/hers (21:39)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (21:41)
other end. And what always happens is when that happens, then finally the oppressor, when they realize they actually
Have to do something because otherwise
they're
Taina Brown she/hers (21:49)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (21:50)
going because guess what? The oppressor numbers are always smaller than the oppressed, right? It looks, it looks like this, right? That it's a hierarchy
Taina Brown she/hers (21:54)
Always. They just hold more power because they usually have more money. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (21:59)
for a reason, right? It's a triangle. And there's very few of them
Taina Brown she/hers (22:01)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (22:01)
at the top, and they know that. And so they know that they keep the calm as long as they can through all this respectability stuff and saying, no, we're we can't hear you when you're yelling. Be quiet.
Taina Brown she/hers (22:09)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (22:10)
Mind your tone. You can see it in corporate structures as well, right?
But then once people start to get loud enough and start to get violent enough, and again, violence, I'm not talking about har killing the people in power, but I'm saying
Taina Brown she/hers (22:20)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (22:21)
causing dis damage, making their voices where they have to be heard. That's when they finally
Taina Brown she/hers (22:23)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (22:26)
say, okay, we'll listen. But then what do they do? They don't listen to those people. They listen to the person that is the most respectable, quiet, you know, the model for this.
Taina Brown she/hers (22:34)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (22:36)
And that and it always a moderate.
Right? Somebody who's in for moderation because they
Taina Brown she/hers (22:41)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (22:41)
figure, well, if we work with them, we can end up with some change, but it'll be change closer to what we really want, versus
Taina Brown she/hers (22:46)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (22:48)
actually dealing with people who want radical change, right? And so that's
Taina Brown she/hers (22:50)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (22:51)
why change is always like the, you know,
Taina Brown she/hers (22:53)
and pink palms.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (22:55)
MLK talks about the long arc of justice. It's because
Taina Brown she/hers (22:57)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (22:57)
that long arc is because of that process. It's just like
Taina Brown she/hers (23:00)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (23:00)
slow process. But the thing that
is important for people to understand, I think, is the view that you're taught is that all that change came because of MLK. All that change came Gandhi.
Taina Brown she/hers (23:09)
And it did it!
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (23:10)
It came because of the Fred Hamptons of the world, right? The ML the the Malcolm X's, the people who are saying, yeah, the Black Panther Party and people that were fighting, that that demanded
Taina Brown she/hers (23:13)
The people on the streets like doing things. Yeah, the grandmas, the aunties, the uncles. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (23:22)
the voices be heard, and then the powers that be
Taina Brown she/hers (23:24)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (23:25)
listened to the most
moderate of those voices that they can get away with and create some amount of incremental change to shut everyone else up, right?
Taina Brown she/hers (23:30)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Well,
that narrative also serves to bolster this idea of the one hero, the one person, which is a way to also demonstrate that power should be consolidated into this one person, as opposed to among the
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (23:46)
Yeah. Well, and to I think also to keep
Taina Brown she/hers (23:49)
people.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (23:50)
to make people realize to to try and dissuade people from collective action. Right? Because if we make it seem
Taina Brown she/hers (23:54)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (23:56)
well, it's just MOK because he was really nice and had a powerful voice and said some really moving words, then we
Taina Brown she/hers (24:01)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (24:01)
just look for that one, the Obama that we think's gonna come along and save us, when in fact Obama was never
Taina Brown she/hers (24:04)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (24:07)
gonna save us. And I was so stupid, not stupid, I was so ill informed and so
Taina Brown she/hers (24:11)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (24:11)
unknowing that like I really thought that. Like I was one of those stupid white liberals.
i you I I'm calling myself stupid, but the ignorant white liberals who really
Taina Brown she/hers (24:18)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (24:19)
believe like, if we elect Obama because I because he was like, I thought, this like modern day MLK, right? So that's gonna bring all that change because he was
Taina Brown she/hers (24:27)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (24:27)
so eloquent and and he could get people make people feel and make people see what's possible and all of that. That's lovely. Except guess what?
It isn't about one person and one person can't do all that, not even the president, right? Because it's about collective
Taina Brown she/hers (24:37)
No, no, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (24:41)
action. So when they make it seem like it's about one person, it diffuses collective action.
Taina Brown she/hers (24:45)
Yeah, yeah,
because then everyone's like, well, we have that one person. I don't need to do anything.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (24:51)
Right.
Taina Brown she/hers (24:51)
I have no responsibility in this when the truth is we all have a responsibility in this. And that's why ultimately I was like, yeah, let's talk about it. Because I'm just like, I cannot, I cannot shut up when I have the opportunity to talk about this. Like, I will fucking talk about it. Like, I had a client who was Palestinian. She's not my client anymore. But like, I couldn't.
sleep at night if I don't talk about this. Out of respect for her person, out of respect for her people, and also out of just respect, out of human dignity. And I think the other thing about MSNBC, you were talking about it's a corporation that upholds these norms. And I think the other thing about MSNBC and just media in general that a lot of people miss is that media is consolidated. There are maybe five major media corporations
that own everything. So nothing is ever as progressive or as liberal as you think it is when it comes to media, even if it's not Fox News, even if it's whatever. It's never really going to cross any lines. It's going to dress itself up in respectability politics, in moderation, and
say some of the right things and say some of the not right things, right? And that's just the reality that we live in. There's no real outside of NPR, like public media, which is funded mostly by the public, right? Which again, that idea of just collectivism in the way that
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (26:18)
Well
Taina Brown she/hers (26:19)
media is created, but
other than that, like...
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (26:21)
There is now,
there is now, in a way, it's just not mass media, right? Cause now
Taina Brown she/hers (26:24)
Mm-hmm. Right.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (26:26)
we have things like the bulwark, which again is more moderate, but that's by design because they're trying to win over former Republicans.
Taina Brown she/hers (26:31)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (26:35)
and then you've got like Kasim Rashid, who just started his own I don't remember what it's called, which I feel bad about, but I'll find it in his sub stack and he's doing independent journalism. Don Lemon, for what you think of him, he's doing, you know, he's doing independent journalism.
Taina Brown she/hers (26:46)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, but those are those
are like independence independent people doing their work, right?
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (26:50)
Exactly, that's my point, yeah. So we have it but it's all independent now.
Taina Brown she/hers (26:54)
Yeah, it's not like a corporation. It's not like an organized company. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, yeah. Yeah
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (26:56)
Exactly. And it but and it can't without that funding, it won't ever be the size of an MSNBC or have that kind
of reach. And that's a problem. Although thankfully
Taina Brown she/hers (27:04)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (27:04)
in the modern day, most people aren't watching TV anymore. They are getting they are consuming news differently,
Taina Brown she/hers (27:07)
Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (27:08)
which does allow for more of those voices to be heard. But I think it's also part of why you see them pushing back on like a Hassan Piker to find
Taina Brown she/hers (27:16)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (27:16)
the one thing that, you know, and again, because he said something about like pure the it's this idea that you have to have
I think he mentioned it, where you have to have like the perfect, the perfect rabble rouser, the perfect like MLK, which who by the way, something like 75% or 70% of people at the time of his death in America thought he was bad. Exactly. Right?
Taina Brown she/hers (27:36)
He was not light. He was not light.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (27:39)
Because now this is what we do in people posthumously, we lift people up and act as if they were like the most beloved, and we have, you
Taina Brown she/hers (27:44)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (27:45)
know, the Stonewall riots, right? Where people are fighting back. And at the time
Those were some of the most marginalized people who
Taina Brown she/hers (27:53)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (27:53)
were who are not there was there was not like this groundswell of support at the time to be like,
Taina Brown she/hers (27:58)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (27:59)
now suddenly I'm pro-trans or something, right? But now we have parades for the Stonewall Riots, right? And like a Stonewall
Taina Brown she/hers (28:01)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (28:05)
Riots the Stonewall Day and all that. So like we like to posthumously or with time and space and reflection pretend as if we were always on the right side of history. We were not. MLK was
Taina Brown she/hers (28:13)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (28:14)
not somebody that people revered. But even with him, if you wanted to believe he was like the perfect.
rabble rouser, what's the right word? Perfect agitator, right?
Taina Brown she/hers (28:21)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (28:25)
That doesn't exist. Like he because he wasn't even perfect, right? I think now we try
Taina Brown she/hers (28:29)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (28:29)
to act as if he was, but most people, most white people, did not believe in him, did not like him. They
Taina Brown she/hers (28:35)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (28:35)
didn't like what he stood for. They didn't like how he showed up. They thought he was, you know, all the things that you're always told when you agitate, you're too loud, you're you're not listening, you're t you're asking for too much. Exactly,
Taina Brown she/hers (28:45)
Changing too many things, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (28:47)
right?
And so Hassan Piker's point being like, we aren't gonna have perfect agitators. And so what they're doing is just showing it. I think that's what's so interesting about this whole the podcast interview is it's on display. Because they're doing exactly the left, not just this podcast, but the left in general.
Taina Brown she/hers (29:01)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (29:02)
Like speaking, not the left, I should say the Democrats, because they're not really
Taina Brown she/hers (29:05)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (29:05)
leftists, but the traditional kind of Democrat and liberals are fighting Hassan Piker, right? They're saying, we don't want that. And they're the way they're trying to do this is like vilifying some things he has said.
Taina Brown she/hers (29:16)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (29:16)
And trying
to again, he he's not perfect. So he's not his voice isn't even welcome here. Even though what he's saying,
Taina Brown she/hers (29:19)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (29:23)
this thing he's saying is absolutely true, right? And yet they're gonna
Taina Brown she/hers (29:26)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (29:27)
try to write him off because he's not perfect. And it's such an easy way to make people who aren't really listening, who aren't really paying attention, who haven't had enough learning and understanding for them to just write it off too, and then write off everything with him, which
Taina Brown she/hers (29:42)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (29:43)
is
But in the main in the same time be like, but our president who's raped children, that's okay. Like right, like the the cognitive dissonance is is dissonancing. But so
Taina Brown she/hers (29:48)
Yeah, yeah, it is, it is. I saw
a clip of, I guess, Eugene, the male podcast host on another
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (29:59)
Yeah, Eugene Daniels.
Taina Brown she/hers (30:00)
MSNBC show talking about
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (30:02)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (30:03)
the interview with two other journalists and.
One was another Black man and one was a white woman and the Black man was like, why are we even talking about this dude? And the white woman was like, he's, you know, basically saying he's just a Twitch streamer who just spends all his time online. like, and it's just like the it's so indicative of like how insular their bubble is that they don't even
I mean, and they could have just been saying that just to say it, right? Just for the show, right? To like, again, remain moderate on everything. like, but if that's truly how they feel, like, it's like, you're so fucking out of touch. Like, he has been, Hassan Piker had been popular
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (30:45)
His following is huge.
Taina Brown she/hers (30:47)
for years, years, especially-
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (30:49)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (30:51)
obviously among the younger generation who, you know, doesn't watch a lot of TV and gets their news through other means. Like, the ignorance. And I'm just like, are we living on the same fucking planet? Like, obviously not, because like, you're talking about this man as if he's somebody's uncle off the street and not like a well-known
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (31:14)
Right, my kid who plays video games
online, like that's not what he's doing online all day.
Taina Brown she/hers (31:16)
Right!
Right! so, and it's just like, it is definitely the entire thing from podcasts to all the follow-up interviews with like other journalists. Like, it's definitely divisive in a way where I feel like...
older people who maybe aren't as educated on some of these issues and don't have a broader understanding of how things are connected will be on one side and other people, whether they're older or younger, but do have a more holistic perspective are going to be on the other side. you know what? That's fucking fine. I've said this on the podcast, I think sometime last year, where was like, I
don't want to find common ground with people who just refuse to do the work to educate themselves. Like, okay, then just stay fucking ignorant.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (32:08)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (32:11)
But then when it's your ass on the line, then you'll see, then you'll
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (32:15)
Right.
Taina Brown she/hers (32:15)
understand what we've been talking about this whole time.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (32:17)
Well you're talking about media issues, and so there's this part of me that's like, I I can excuse it to a degree in that like I understand it's harder when all the media you are consuming, if you consume mainstream media, is telling you a particular narrative, you might you're gonna believe that narrative, right? But there is a point where if you're hearing this or if you've had a conversation with someone else, or whatever it is, where if somebody starts to present something that's challenging to you and you don't
Taina Brown she/hers (32:41)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (32:42)
go read a book.
Go look up some articles, go like check some
Taina Brown she/hers (32:43)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (32:44)
other sources, talk to some people with that shared lived experience, whatever it is. If you are then actively n choosing not to educate
Taina Brown she/hers (32:51)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (32:51)
yourself further, then that's where I agree. I think there's a problem.
Taina Brown she/hers (32:54)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (32:54)
And I just want to say, like, I have issue I don't have issues. I don't know Hassan Piker in his content because I don't consume it. Enough to make
Taina Brown she/hers (33:00)
Yeah, yeah, I don't watch Twitch.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (33:02)
right. I can't make a conclusion on whether I agree with him on all points or not. I
Taina Brown she/hers (33:05)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (33:06)
am wary because his uncle is Chank Ugger from
Young Turks and Young Turks has taken a whole anti-trans, like they've gone real down that anti-trans platform,
Taina Brown she/hers (33:13)
Mm. Mm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (33:15)
and like I'm so I'm decidedly against all of that. And I'm I get wary. I wouldn't want people to judge me by my uncles,
Taina Brown she/hers (33:21)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (33:21)
but I do wonder, like maybe I don't know enough about Hassan to know. However,
Taina Brown she/hers (33:25)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (33:26)
I can also and g in the same place of like I don't have to try to find common ground with Hassan, or I don't have to be like, let me change your mind.
Taina Brown she/hers (33:31)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (33:32)
But what I can do is say when someone is saying something that is truthful.
Not just factual, but truthful. I can acknowledge that. And what he's saying
Taina Brown she/hers (33:36)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (33:40)
there, the argument that he's making about like Hamas and the way that it's been presented, the way that it's been framed, and and and drawing some of those lines around how
Taina Brown she/hers (33:50)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (33:50)
violent or forceful in the case of Hamas, violent, violent reaction to
Taina Brown she/hers (33:55)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (33:58)
century at this point, a full century, definitely decades.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:01)
Yeah, a violence
forced upon them. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (34:03)
Of sustained exactly
viol state sanctioned systemic violence against them.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:07)
funded by the US government.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (34:09)
Then I can also say a hundred percent I agree. I don't have to, I don't
Taina Brown she/hers (34:13)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (34:14)
have to say my agreeing with you on that does not mean I have to say I am also now co-signing on everything you've ever said. And that's what they're trying to make exactly. I think the the mainstream
Taina Brown she/hers (34:20)
Everything you say, yeah, yeah. And yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (34:25)
folks want us to make us feel like that's what it is,
Taina Brown she/hers (34:27)
It's all or nothing.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (34:29)
right? Because they want us to like not, they want to shut him down because his voice is speaking truth. He's speaking truth to power right
Taina Brown she/hers (34:31)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (34:35)
now.
And he's not the only
Taina Brown she/hers (34:35)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (34:36)
one. So it's not like I'm trying to cause there's plenty and I I've heard some of this argument too. Like, great, now Hassan Piker is like becoming the voice of this when there have been many Black folks, including many
Taina Brown she/hers (34:45)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (34:46)
incredible Black women, who've been saying the same thing, speaking of Angela Davis, for a long time. So it's not that
Taina Brown she/hers (34:48)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (34:50)
I'm trying to say Hassan Pike, we should all hold him up as our hero. We don't need
heroes, but we should
Taina Brown she/hers (34:54)
Yeah, we don't need
heroes. We just need people to see and say something and do something.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (34:59)
And then when they speak the truth, to not try to pretend the truth isn't truth. So just on
Taina Brown she/hers (35:02)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (35:03)
the point of Hamas, I just want to say, ask yourself if you're sitting here and you're feeling uncomfortable in the same way Symone was feeling uncomfortable. Ooh, I don't like you comparing me to Hamas.
Taina Brown she/hers (35:14)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (35:14)
I I've I've protested, but my protest was good, quote unquote good protest, the right protest.
Taina Brown she/hers (35:18)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (35:20)
I want you to ask yourself, what do you know about Hamas? Who taught you, told you that
Taina Brown she/hers (35:23)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (35:25)
narrative about Hamas?
Right? What is your actual understanding of any of this? Because I can tell you almost all of us, we only know in the same way we heard about Al-Qaeda, we heard about Saddam Hussein, whatever the things are. It's
Taina Brown she/hers (35:34)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (35:36)
only what we've heard from US media, and that is propaganda.
Taina Brown she/hers (35:38)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (35:39)
I'm not saying that it's necessary and it's always wrong, but you have to know it is propaganda. It is through. Exactly.
Taina Brown she/hers (35:44)
It's a spin. There's truth to it, but it's a spin.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (35:48)
Right. So you gotta question things. And and then I would just ask yourself to also read a book like The Hundred Year War on Palestine or any book.
I think freedom is a constant struggle. Read that as well. Like read any of these books, right?
Taina Brown she/hers (35:58)
It's four chapters, it's such a small book. Just fucking read it.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (36:02)
And ask yourself, read about US history and think about what you know about slavery. And ask
Taina Brown she/hers (36:06)
Yes. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (36:09)
yourself the question of how long would I play their game? How long would I do all the things quote unquote right and nothing change before I decided to resort to some form of quote unquote violence?
Right?
Taina Brown she/hers (36:24)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (36:24)
How long before it's you, how long would you be willing to watch your child, your child's friends, your neighbors' heads blown off, right? Have no access to food and water, no roads, no jobs, you're you're you're in an apartheid where you are can you're quarantined to a particular area, you can't get medical care, you have
Taina Brown she/hers (36:42)
Bye bye.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (36:42)
no freedom movement, whatever the things are, whether it's that or even where like thinking back to slavery, right?
Taina Brown she/hers (36:47)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (36:48)
How
long before you revolt? And my favorite is when there would be white people to be like, well, if you know, why did the slaves ever figure out there's more of them and they could like, you know, and they did. There were violent uprisings
Taina Brown she/hers (36:57)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (36:59)
all the time. And don't think that slavery, the way we are taught about the end of slavery is basically it sucked, it sucks sucked. White people grew a conscience, Abe Lincoln freed the slaves, and everything was done. That is
not what
Taina Brown she/hers (37:09)
No,
the slaves fucking freed themselves.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (37:12)
Yes, and we we aren't taught real history. So anyway, I just think when we think about things like Hamas or like any organ, even in going to Al Qaeda, and that this it can be very challenging for Americans
Taina Brown she/hers (37:22)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (37:23)
with that with the history of what happened on 9-11 and everything else, but to think
Taina Brown she/hers (37:26)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (37:26)
about what is the circumstances under which you
Taina Brown she/hers (37:29)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (37:30)
might, but for the grace of God, go you where that could have been you and that would be your reaction. You and
Taina Brown she/hers (37:32)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (37:36)
I just think if we could all develop a little more fucking empathy, you know, and
Taina Brown she/hers (37:39)
Yeah, just
some curiosity. Like when you said, you know, I don't blame people who get their news and just like accept it. No, I fucking do. Because when was the last time you fucking thought for yourself? Like you are not curious about anything that's happening in the world at all. Like, and I say that,
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (37:55)
Except Tina, they're not.
Taina Brown she/hers (37:56)
I say that with the full knowledge that I was once there and I still sometimes find myself there. And I
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (38:01)
Me too. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (38:03)
hold myself to the same standard. I continue to tell myself,
I need to be more curious about the content I'm consuming, about the things that I'm reading, about the things that I'm watching. Because if not, if I slip up, if I don't, I will just believe anything too. So I say that.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (38:20)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (38:22)
I'm not saying that in this harsh way that I'm better than everybody else. No, I'm right there with everybody.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (38:28)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (38:28)
I hold myself to the same standard. Have some fucking curiosity about the world. I say that to other people as much as I say it to myself.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (38:36)
The problem, I guess, I and I totally a hundred percent agree. And I love that you added that piece that it's like me too, because yeah, me too. And the other thing I think about is just the more, you know, I've got all this stuff going off my kids' school, blah, blah, blah. But
Taina Brown she/hers (38:47)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (38:47)
the more I bring my awareness and attention to the public education system,
Taina Brown she/hers (38:52)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (38:53)
and the way that it is as much an instrument of the systems as anything else, and in really one of the
Honestly, in some ways it's shocking to me that the Republicans are so anti public education when in fact public che public
Taina Brown she/hers (39:05)
Because it's
not doing anything to raise progressives.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (39:09)
Exactly. I mean, if anything,
public education is probably the most reliable tool of the system of maintaining the system, right? but a hundred percent again.
Taina Brown she/hers (39:15)
Yeah. And it was built that way on purpose if you study the history of education in this country.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (39:21)
Read original sins by e viewing. I can't recommend it enough because it's about the exactly that about how the education system was made specifically to uphold the systems. And I think about that because we aren't taught to be curious. Now, many of
Taina Brown she/hers (39:34)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (39:35)
us have the b the luck or privilege
Of having had parents who maybe helped us develop that.
Taina Brown she/hers (39:39)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (39:40)
even if you didn't, maybe on your own, you came to it. But I will say
Taina Brown she/hers (39:43)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (39:44)
I understand for a certain percentage of the population where life is fucking hard. It is just like I gotta work three goddamn jobs to pay the bills.
Taina Brown she/hers (39:51)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (39:52)
I never have time to breathe. I have no time for self-care and joy or anything. And you want me to like now be curious, like fuck you. You know, like there
Taina Brown she/hers (40:00)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (40:01)
I can hear that. And for that person, I will say, I do, I do have empathy. I
Taina Brown she/hers (40:05)
get that.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (40:06)
I get it. I get it. And I have empathy. And I would just say, not that they're listening to us probably, but if you are, the system wants you that way. And so that
Taina Brown she/hers (40:14)
Yep.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (40:15)
is where it's like the use the curiosity, not because it's like the right thing to do or like because you need to and you should be guilted into
Taina Brown she/hers (40:22)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (40:22)
it, but because it's the only tool that you have to fight these systems.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:25)
It's the only thing you have, your mind.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (40:27)
Yeah. Yeah. But I guess there is that part of me that's like,
Taina Brown she/hers (40:28)
Because they will take everything from you. They will take, this
world will take everything from you. The only
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (40:34)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:35)
thing that it cannot take from you is your ability to think for yourself. And if you willingly give that away
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (40:39)
Until the AI finds a way to do that.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:42)
every day, you know, because, and I get it, because you might be exhausted. Like I have a chronic illness.
I can't even
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (40:48)
Yeah, I know.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:49)
fucking work. Like I get it. And I don't even have children. I can't imagine people who do have children and have to like deal with all
this. But the reality is this is where we're at and
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (40:59)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:59)
we're not saying, I'm not saying like you have to be curious about every single thing that comes across you know your desk or your face or your life or whatever. Like no, like pick and choose when you can be curious, when you have the energy. Like I have so many tabs open and so many bookmarks open because I'm
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (41:18)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:18)
like if I don't, if I don't do this I will forget to be curious about it.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (41:21)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:22)
And
when I have the energy, I go into my bookmarks and I'm like, okay, what was this thing that I put aside to read another day or to look at another day, right? And this is also why community is important because you can get around people who have differing perspectives, who are going to challenge you, right, to think differently if you're in a healthy community. And that...
will ease some of that burden of having to do it all on your lonesome, right? And if you have kids, it's good to have your kids be around people who are different, who are going to challenge their way of thinking from what they're learning in school or what they might catch on the TV, you know, when it's on in the background at home or whatever. And so it's you. We don't have to do this alone is the point. We don't have to do this alone. And and it's not all or nothing. We can have nonviolent action with.
violent action as well. Like we don't have to choose. We
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (42:15)
You need both. Right, right.
Taina Brown she/hers (42:18)
don't have to choose. They're making us feel like we have to choose and we don't.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (42:22)
And and just to be clear, it's not like we're sitting here con condoning. I don't know what the right word is. It's not like I'm encouraging people to go out and violently
revolt or something. But I do
Taina Brown she/hers (42:29)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (42:32)
think we need to open up our understanding of what liberation actually involves. That it's not just
Taina Brown she/hers (42:34)
Of what? Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (42:37)
sitting around and singing kumbaya and hoping the powers that be decide that you're now worthy of some new right. That's not how that's
Taina Brown she/hers (42:44)
They will never.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (42:45)
it's not how it works. I just want to quickly point to because as you were talking about, like the last thing that we have is our ability to think.
And it does make you consider the timing of all this AI stuff. And they're trying really hard to strip that last thing from you, too. Because there
Taina Brown she/hers (42:58)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (42:59)
are clear studies that the overuse of AI, and in fact, it's not even you'd be surprised how little use of AI begins
Taina Brown she/hers (43:04)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (43:05)
to strip begins to create cognitive decline. It begins to affect
Taina Brown she/hers (43:08)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (43:08)
your ability to even think for yourself anymore. So be careful
Taina Brown she/hers (43:10)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (43:11)
of that. Be cautious of that. Like I use it some, but I have also like I quickly realized.
I can actually see the cognitive decline starting to happen where I'm like,
Taina Brown she/hers (43:19)
you
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (43:19)
wait, how do I write an email? Like, that's not okay.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:21)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (43:22)
So I don't use it for writing at all anymore. I just, I'm like, I don't I I will use it for outlining a certain few things.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:27)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (43:28)
Mostly I use it for things I I'm just not able to do on my own, like writing
Taina Brown she/hers (43:31)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (43:31)
HTML code. But like I'm really been questioning it too because I think it is part of this. It is like, if we
Taina Brown she/hers (43:36)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (43:36)
get if we can dumb the masses down even more, it makes me think of was it Wally that's similar to idiocracy, which I know Dak Shepherd and a lot of things about idiocracy are problematic, but
That movie, and then I think it's Wally also where they show like this future vision of of humans just sitting basically with TVs projected to our eyes and we're just
laying
Taina Brown she/hers (43:54)
Bye.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (43:54)
there because we can't even think at all anymore.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:56)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (43:57)
And I think we look at that as some silly thing. And the truth is I think we're heading there, right? AI is Yeah, exactly.
Taina Brown she/hers (44:01)
We're living it. We're living it.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (44:03)
Exactly. So don't let that happen to you. Watch out what you're doing with AI. Make sure you're still thinking for yourself. And like you said, you don't have to think about everything, but I just think.
If we all just said why, you remember how kids like kids annoy you 'cause they're one to why. Why? Why?
Taina Brown she/hers (44:14)
Yes, why? Why is
the most important question you can ever ask? Why?
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (44:19)
If somebody says
says Hamas are terrorists, then say why. And
Taina Brown she/hers (44:22)
Why?
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (44:23)
and if they say, well, they bomb whatever, say why did they do that? Right? Keep asking why, because
Taina Brown she/hers (44:27)
Just keep asking why. Just keep asking why.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (44:30)
and I will tell you because as I'm again, as I'm reading this book, and because I'm reading it right now, my brain's very much on it. But I've been thinking about, I mean, I think we're all, we're just all thinking about Palestine a lot right now. And this hundred years' war on Palestine has really had me thinking a lot about arguments I have heard from Zionist sorts of folks over time, where I'm like,
it if I had just asked why more and hadn't been so afraid to ask why more, their
Taina Brown she/hers (44:50)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (44:52)
arguments wouldn't have held up. I can I I know that now. Yeah. And
Taina Brown she/hers (44:54)
Yeah, they don't. They don't. They fall apart after like three or four whys. They just fall apart.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (45:00)
because it becomes something that you can't really defend at that point. Like, right,
Taina Brown she/hers (45:03)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (45:04)
you either just have to buy into this idea that, well, basically because I think my life is more value my access
Taina Brown she/hers (45:09)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (45:10)
to land is more valuable than their lives or whatever. Like you can't defend it anymore.
Taina Brown she/hers (45:13)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (45:15)
So why is just so valuable and we don't ask it enough. And
Taina Brown she/hers (45:17)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (45:19)
kids do because they haven't yet had it beat about beaten out of them, right? They haven't yet
Taina Brown she/hers (45:23)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (45:23)
learned, been been coerced into believing that asking why is wrong, that it's bad. And we have then. And so then we we put
Taina Brown she/hers (45:28)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (45:30)
that on them and we have to stop that.
Taina Brown she/hers (45:32)
Yeah, yeah. And it is uncomfortable, you know, like the female podcaster, whatever her name is. I don't even care what her name is at this point.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (45:38)
Symone Sanders. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (45:40)
I don't care about their names. You know, she's like, I don't want to be compared to Hamas. Like, it's not the same thing. Like, yeah, it's uncomfortable to think of yourself as like being compared
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (45:47)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (45:48)
to this idea that has been framed as like so terrible and so dramatic and so obscene, you know? And it's like,
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (45:56)
Right.
Taina Brown she/hers (45:57)
nobody wants to be compared to that. the
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (45:59)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:00)
truth is like,
We live in a violent world, and inside of violence, there is no peace, no matter what you do. Even
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (46:09)
Exactly.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:09)
if you're at home just sitting back, not doing anything, there's still violence happening. The
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (46:14)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:15)
world is violent.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (46:17)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:17)
The powers that be have created this violent structure of just extraction and oppression and abuse that there's... Right.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (46:23)
Yeah. 'Cause white supremacy can't exist without violence.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:29)
Because it just takes. It takes.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (46:29)
Patriarchy doesn't exist without violence. Capitalism doesn't exist without violence. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:34)
It takes without consent.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (46:35)
Mm-hmm. It's well, I'm glad you just said that because it also like to bring it to a different dynamic that maybe women listening to will understand because this stuff still also shows up there. Where the the same thing that we're talking about, the same thing with Hamas, where it's like, well, why didn't you this before you bombed this? Why didn't you that like all the things that they that we have decided they should have done or they could have done
differently, all the peaceful things that could have happened.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:55)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (46:58)
If you need to translate it into something you may understand better, as a woman, it's the same thing where a woman has been raped and
And the questions become, why did you wear that? How much did you drink? Did why did you go home with him? Ex all of those things. Right. So if you're too
Taina Brown she/hers (47:07)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Why did you fight back? Why didn't you fight back? Like no matter what you do, it's all wrong. It's all wrong.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (47:15)
peaceful, then they think you don't want it enough, right? Like you don't want the
Taina Brown she/hers (47:18)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (47:18)
change enough. If you acquiesce, if you you placate, you, you know, you do all the things you think you're respectable, you're whatever, you're good, then you're not gonna get changed because they say you don't want it bad enough. Then if you fight for the change, you want it, you're trying too hard, you're, you know, you're exactly.
Taina Brown she/hers (47:31)
then you provoke more violence,
yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (47:34)
If there's no winning. And when there's no winning, it means we need all of the the tools in the toolbox. And
Taina Brown she/hers (47:40)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (47:41)
to just write off anyone who's showing up, because I think it's a great place for you to check in with your privilege. If you start to notice, because I don't think this is going away anytime soon. I think we're gonna have more violence before less, especially as we're going into economic decline. You know, people
Taina Brown she/hers (47:57)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (47:57)
can't afford to feed their kids, and gas is up to four plus dollars here in
Taina Brown she/hers (48:01)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (48:01)
I mean, we gas has never been I i and the food you can get is
Taina Brown she/hers (48:03)
Almost all of our food has been recalled. Is there horse meat in your burgers? Who knows?
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (48:08)
yeah, the food you can get so expensive. Anyway, I don't think we're gonna have less of it. And I think as you start to notice people fighting back, even just with ice and what you know, with Minneapolis and people showing up
Taina Brown she/hers (48:17)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (48:18)
and seeing the reactions that happen when people do start to even not use physical force but show up loudly and that they're treated as Renee good, treated like a violent agitator.
Taina Brown she/hers (48:24)
Yeah. Yeah, like that woman who was shot in her car by ICE.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (48:31)
I just think it's easy when you have more privilege to to not ask why and to believe the story you're being told. And that if you're ready to start questioning it here, take those that same curiosity to everywhere else in the world to ask yourself
Taina Brown she/hers (48:43)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (48:44)
the same kinds of questions that are the same lies that are being sold to you. That's all. I just wanna I just
Taina Brown she/hers (48:49)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (48:50)
yeah. I don't know. I'm I hear you. I understand why you're like, I don't want to talk about it. Cause I get that. And
Taina Brown she/hers (48:55)
It's just
exhausting. Like I'm fucking tired. Like literally,
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (48:56)
It is. I know.
Taina Brown she/hers (48:59)
physically it's exhausting to talk about this. Like to have to talk about
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (49:01)
Mm.
Taina Brown she/hers (49:02)
it over and over again. It's physically and
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (49:04)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (49:05)
emotionally exhausting.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (49:06)
Well, we don't have to talk about it over and over again. We can talk like next week, let's make a commitment
Taina Brown she/hers (49:10)
Hahaha
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (49:11)
to ourselves unless something I don't know, really radical comes up. Maybe
Taina Brown she/hers (49:14)
Unless another
shitty thing happens, which it's bound to at this point.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (49:16)
Problem is another shitty thing will happen. So, but maybe we can try to find something
fun to talk about. I don't know. But I do think, I don't know. I would love to hear in the comments, not from the assholes, although you'll probably show up. But I would love to know from people or email us. I would like to know, like, are we asking, are we are we challenging your thinking? Are we making you think about things you
Taina Brown she/hers (49:33)
Hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (49:34)
hadn't? Is this helpful? Because if it's not, we'll just talk about hall passes. Cause that was a fun episode too. And we could do that over and over again. But
Taina Brown she/hers (49:38)
Yeah, yeah. I can talk about
hall passes all day. Listen, we're going to Iceland.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (49:43)
Our our Hall
Pass's episode was one of the most popular.
Taina Brown she/hers (49:46)
We're going to Iceland and the premiere for Wicker is happening while we're there. And Alexander Skarsgard is going to be there and we got tickets. And we have already had the call pass conversation about Alexander Skarsgard in preparation for our trip.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (50:01)
That's how I know your wife's a lovely person because she knows. She
Taina Brown she/hers (50:03)
hahahaha
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (50:05)
didn't even she didn't even wait for you to bring it up. She just like, listen, I want to cut this off at the pass.
Taina Brown she/hers (50:07)
No, now she brought it up.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (50:09)
Yep. If you if he says, let's go, you go and I'll go get a drink at the bar. Good for her.
Taina Brown she/hers (50:14)
Yeah, yeah. She was like,
I'll get a drink at the bar. I'll watch if you want me there. Just you tell me. No, no. We love you, Olivia. Yeah, but not my type.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (50:18)
What about Olivia Coleman? Is that anybody's fall pass? No. No. We love you, Olivia, but I can't wait for you to tell
me how the movie is because I'm very excited. And I just
Taina Brown she/hers (50:29)
It should be interesting.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (50:31)
if they don't address splinters, I will be deep deeply disappointed. So you let me know.
Taina Brown she/hers (50:35)
Yes!
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (50:36)
It's
I mean it's got they gotta they gotta address the splinters because it's all I can think about when I see it.
Taina Brown she/hers (50:39)
We'll see.
Maybe they just ask us to suspend disbelief about it. I mean,
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (50:43)
Well, you think by having sex with a giant wicker man that I'm supposed to
Taina Brown she/hers (50:47)
that's what I was about to say after all. It's a twisted, sordid kind of fairy tale. So I think I can suspend disbelief about splinters for a couple hours.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (50:55)
I guess.
I just I have a lot of questions, but they're all rooted in reality, so maybe I you're right. I just need to let that go. Well have fun in Iceland. I'm super jealous. I hope that you get to have sex with Peter Skarsgard.
Taina Brown she/hers (51:05)
Thanks. Alexander Skarsgård, there's so many of them.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (51:10)
There's another Skarsgard, I'm sorry. Which I I just hope you get to have sex with a Skarsgrd. Any of them. Find one and have sex with them.
Taina Brown she/hers (51:16)
I mean, not
any of them, I definitely have preferences.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (51:19)
Okay.
Alexander Scargard, if you're listening, hit Tyne up while she's there. All right.
Taina Brown she/hers (51:24)
Hit me up, I'll be there.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (51:26)
sorry for making you agitated, but thank you for having
Taina Brown she/hers (51:29)
No, it's fine.
Becky Mollenkamp, she/they (51:30)
the conversation.
Becky Mollenkamp (51:32)
Thanks for listening to Messy Liberation. Will you please take a moment to subscribe, rate, and review wherever you listen? Taking that moment to do that will really help us reach a wider audience. Thank you so much for your support and for listening today. Until next time.