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Psychoanalysis should be free! From this motto, we're looking at making the insights of more than a century of psychoanalytic understanding available to anyone and everywhere. Our first goal is to produce a package of general introduction videos about psychoanalysis as well as to explain its key concepts.
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Interview Peter Fonagy
Peter Fonagy: [00:00:00] Uh, thank you, um, very much for asking me to, um, chat with you this morning. And I'm Peter Fonagy and I am a psychoanalyst working in London and I'm also, uh, chief executive of the Annana Freud Center and, uh, head of the division of Psychology and Language Sciences here at UCL from where I'm speaking. And, uh, I really look forward to a conversation with you this morning about psychoanalysis.
Nicolas Lorenzini: Thank you very much, uh, to, to be here. Uh, if I can compliment your introduction a little bit. Uh, Peter is my mentor, the person most important in my career, and then to a big extent in my. And I know that Alexander does share some of that too. Um, you were in the RTP [00:01:00] 2011. Oh, that's, I remember your face,
Aleksandar Dimitrijevic: Yeah, I was at the RTP a year before you class. Oh, so 2009. Yes. Uhhuh .
Nicolas Lorenzini: Okay. And well, this is, um, well, Peter agreed to do this with us. We are just going to fire away some questions to see if this, uh, uh, ends up being inspiring, not only, uh, for us, but for the people who follow the channel. Uh, and psychoanalysis In general,
Aleksandar Dimitrijevic: why do you think you decided to become a psychoanalyst?
How did you come to, what made you fall in love with it?
Peter Fonagy: I fell in love with psychoanalysis for my own analysis and, uh, uh, I was a very depressed, uh, very unhappy adolescent for various reasons. And I was offered. Therapy by the, uh, Hempstead Clinic now, the Ana Freud Center. It [00:02:00] was, uh, Anne Harry who was my analyst.
And, uh, she just was a wonderful human being and just made me forever interested in the way that minds worked and, uh, how my mind work, how other people's minds work. Uh, she was very insightful, very thoughtful, very human. Um, then as soon as my analysis finished, which was actually in behavioral terms, very successful, uh, I had been an educational failure before and I got a first class degree at the end of it.
Uh, so, uh, it was all good. Uh, but I had a very ambivalent attitude, uh, towards it. And then I went on to, um, Study neuroscience and become interested in, um, cerebral asymmetry and, uh, all kinds of [00:03:00] interesting things. Signal to noise issue, stimuli, uh, basically as far away from human beings as you could get.
You know, being amplifiers that you could turn dials on was what interested me most. And then I got a job, uh, at, uh, UCL to, um, teach, um, psychopathology to teach, uh, mental disorder. And, um, that, uh, made me think I should really train as a clinician before I did that. And I, I then started training a clinician, and then I, uh, went into training analysis and, uh, uh, had the usual analytic experience, but the interest in the mind.
uh, I think is the core that runs through it, the mechanisms of how their mind works, which I think is really at the heart of psychoanalysis as well. [00:04:00] Um, and that's why I'm still remaining in love with psychoanalysis. I haven't, I haven't fallen out of love with psychoanalysis. And there is something that you said just in passing, which I think is one of the things that, uh, at least Alexander and I are pretty interested, when you said I had the typical psychoanalytic training experience, and one of the things that Alexander and I would be, have been, uh, studying a little bit or a lot , is that there is no typical, uh, psychoanalytic training.
So I went to ask you a little bit the details of, of your training, uh, will be founded that is different here, different France, different in, uh, Latin America and, uh, Germany. How was yours in? Well, I had, uh, about four years analysis with the training analyst before I started my training. Mm-hmm. . Um, but I went into that analysis with the idea that I wanted to train, [00:05:00] um, maybe wasn't quite four years new, I'm exaggerating, but some, it wasn't short quite a few years, but I was accepted.
Um, first time I applied and then, uh, I had another four years in the training with, and so then my training analysis lasted 80 years. And, um, the, um, training itself, um, was very clinical and I had, uh, two training patients five times a week. The theory seminars were in the evening. Mm-hmm. , um, , they were quite poor, uh, in terms of, some of them were very poor, some of them were very good, um, uh, in terms of theory, but they were very, very good.
Um, in terms of [00:06:00] clinical, uh, practice. So the clinical seminars were very good and I learned most of what I learned about technique, uh, psychology technique from the clinical seminars that we had. And, uh, uh, I valued them. And I went on in my, to have clinical seminars in my membership course, you know, after I qualified.
And I still value clinical discussions in the same way. The key to it in the British system was having sessions that you reported verbatim. Mm-hmm. , um, that you had a very brief introduction saying, you know, my patient is. You know, an 18 year old, a 25 year old female, whatever, presented, whatever. But you see very little about them, a little bit about the analytic history that, you know, we have been working on this, that, or the other.
And then give the session. And what we engaged with each [00:07:00] other during the training was how people from different orientations engaged with material with what the patient said. Um, and then I found massively valuable. Um, and I would say that was the most valuable, uh, part of the training, the theory, the reading I did on my own.
Uh, I, you know, it was, you know, assigned papers and, you know, sometimes I read them, sometimes I pretended to read them, you know, and you're very tired. You know, you're arriving at, you know, you had, you, you treated two patients. You had a supervision, you did a full-time job. , uh, you arrive at, uh, uh, uh, a, a theoretical seminar about a paper that somebody's very enthusiastic about and you just kind of, you, you learn to be very, you notd very intelligently and ask really [00:08:00] intelligent questions.
That's what it mostly trains you in. Uh, uh, I wouldn't say it was a, a deep training in, uh, in the theoretical underpinnings of psychoanalysis. I dunno whether I'm disappointing. I'm too old. It doesn't matter. I can say anything. . That's it. . Good. I wanted to mention something that might be before, uh, the OID Clinic in a book about the history of psychoanalysis.
I've noticed what I believe is your father's name on the list of prominent intellectuals who had been analyzed in Budapest. That's correct. It seems from your facial expression it is absolutely correct. Yeah. Has that been in any way influenced, have, were you aware of this growing up or anything? No, I was not aware of it growing up other than, other than, um, he put me into child therapy, [00:09:00] uh, when I had early, um, anxieties that were, that didn't need therapy actually.
Uh, if now as a clinician I would say, uh, it was, uh, that kind of excessive, um, enthusiasm for, uh, therapy that a lot of people in Central Europe have. Um, uh, I was by adolescence, I needed therapy. Um, so I'm not, uh, I'm just in, in, in childhood. I was anxious, um, like most kids are, uh, Uh, and, uh, but I was put in therapy.
Did I benefit from that? Not at all. Uh uh, but that would now on, in retrospect, made me think that of, of that interest, uh, that he had. And it really wasn't until I [00:10:00] became an academic and I became an analyst that my father and I connected properly about analysis. Um, uh, you know, his attitude I think was always, um, uh, that I should be allowed to find my intellectual, um, uh, my own intellectual, uh, line intellectual interest.
So, uh, there wasn't a lot of psychoanalysis talked about at home from the, uh, kitchen table. Um, I would say, uh, he didn't ever talk about his analysis ever. Um, Didn't talk about, um, uh, his ideas, uh, but he was deeply, uh, influenced by, uh, Freud as a lot of intellectuals in central Europe where, um, uh, uh, he, um, I think we had [00:11:00] more when he went to France in 1967, he connected with the French Psycholytic, uh, culture, but I think he found it very different from the Hungarian psychic culture.
Um, very intellectual, but very different. Um, and, um, I think he found it a little bit alien. Um, so I wouldn't say he was disillusioned by it. And, and he. Uh, some books that were very psychological,
he wrote in, in, in, in, in France. But, uh, he was, uh, um, you know, he was no la uh, uh, and he found that quite difficult. He was very much a, a, uh, a very, very deeply Freudian analyst who even [00:12:00] found ego psychology, uh, alien. Uh, so, and, and, and Klinean thinking was just like, I mean, to him absurd. You know, he didn't, didn't.
So, um, but, but, uh, it's, it's an interesting question, uh, that you ask. Uh, I, I, I, uh, yeah. Uh, I wouldn't say that that was the main reason.
You wanna continue?
I'm very curious about your clinical approach. So many people know so much about your research and your writings, but is there anything specific about how you work with patients or used to work with patients? I still work with patients. I'm an honest psychoanalyst. Uh, uh, I, I see, um, [00:13:00] about two patients a day, um, sometimes more, uh, very rarely less.
Uh, yesterday I saw two, uh, day before I work in, um, uh, psychotherapy. I don't work in, um, uh, intensive, uh, uh, psychotherapy in analysis anymore. Um,
my clinical approach is very influenced by the mentalizing model. Mm-hmm. . Um, and, uh, uh, I work, um, on alongside patients, um, exploring their mind very much how my analysis was with, uh, um, my first analyst, uh, Anne Harry, uh, you [00:14:00] know, we explored my mind together. Uh, she interpreted, but not kind of an interpretation.
Very rarely. Maybe at the end of the session she would give an it interpretation of, uh, you know, how this related to whatever the anxieties, uh, might have been that. But most of the time she related to me as a human being and thinking alongside me about my life. Um, and that's how I work, uh, with patients.
So it's, um, uh, very much in the here and now, uh, very trying to be very relational. Um, I, I, I feel I discovered relational psychoanalysis before relational psychoanalysis discovered itself. Mm-hmm. . Um, so it's, it's, uh, very relational. It's [00:15:00] all about, uh, uh, the patient's relationship with other people, uh, including me, uh, what they think they feel, uh, about others.
Very, uh, I do very brief interventions. I don't do long interventions. Uh, and, um, it's, um, uh, oftentimes, um, in the transference. So it's oftentimes thoughts that they have. You know, we work in what in mentalizing world we call relational mentalizing. So you know, what they think about the therapy, how they see the therapy, and uh, uh, uh, uh, how they have their, what implications there.
What they bring is might be to, um, uh, their thinking about, uh, [00:16:00] uh, their experience with, uh, me. Uh, that's pretty much it. If you give me a clinical example, I'll illustrate. So you just, you role play the patient and I'll, uh, role play the therapist. Just have to, uh, I, I find it very encouraging how you describe.
This long-lasting positive effect of your first analysis sounds, sounds really heartwarming in a way. It's, it's also very genuine. Yeah. Yeah, of course. It's, uh, um, uh, I think if you episode that I'm sure that, uh, Niko has, has heard me mention from an analysis, um, I got, um, uh, this is what set my technique.
Okay. This is Will, will, it's answering your technique question really. Um, the, um, I had to take, uh, [00:17:00] a, uh, um, a train to my analysis from Q Gardens to Hamster, fortunately didn't have to change. And then, uh, age, uh, 18, I, uh, got a car and passed my driving test. Uh, and, uh, uh, I, for the first time, Drove to my analysis, which was very early in the morning.
Uh, it said back at seven 30. Um, so I got there, um, and, uh, of course I li laid down on the couch and, you know, and started, uh, talking to, uh, Anne Harry about the drive and how wonderful it was and, and everything like that. Uh, Anne Harry stopped, uh, the, the session, uh, uh, she's never, never did before or, or after.
So man out of rules, stopped the session, [00:18:00] got up, went to the window, looked out, came back, sat down and said, Peter, it's a wonderful car. Uh, uh, and, uh, uh, that was the, that, that, that. Made the whole world of analysis very alive for me. Um, so, you know, recognizing a person where they are at that very moment is what analysis is about.
Yeah. Uh, and also being alive as analyst. Yeah. What car was it? It was a Ford gli, which they don't, they don't make anymore. The valuable thing about the car was its number plate, which was O B G 13. I could now sell that for thousands of pounds if I kept it. Uh, cuz in England you can [00:19:00] keep your number plates, uh, and, and, uh, sad.
So somebody who's, uh, who's Oscar, uh, Benjamin, uh, uh, Greenberg or whatever it's would pay. Thousand pounds. Yeah. For, for a number plate like that. Yeah. Sorry, this is not relevant to
I imagine. Control cases. And, and, and probably immediately after you finished your training, you used to work classically, couch, high frequency and so on. Did, did that give you anything? Did it make you inspired or why did you give up? I started seeing borderline patients. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. I developed an interest in, in borderline patients, uh, for several reasons.
Not, not mainly because, [00:20:00] um, they were, uh, very prevalent in analytic, um, In you, in in, certainly for analysts who couldn't charge very much, uh, they were the patients who were more likely to present. Uh, so all my membership cases, um, were borderline and they didn't do very well on the cast. Uh, uh, and, uh, I, at the same time, uh, started working with, um, a guy called George Moran, uh, who was, uh, a, um, uh, who was the Dan?
Not yet Dan, uh, but who was doing his PhD with me, uh, doing his PhD, um, uh, under my, was my first PhD student. Um, and [00:21:00] uh, he and I had something called a Saturday Club. Uh, and the Saturday Club, uh, was he and I would meet, we were both junior analysts, uh, and we would meet and we would talk honestly to each other about what didn't work, not, you know, this was kind of peer supervision of a particular kind.
Um, where we just talk about cases where what we thought should work, didn't work. Mm-hmm. . Um, and, uh, um, it kind of gave us confidence, uh, that, you know, it wasn't just me kind of thing. And that's was the context in which mentalization based treatment evolved? Uh, not, not in any conscious way, but we changed our technique with each other, treating these young people who were.
I was treating this, uh, young [00:22:00] woman who was, um, diabetic, uh, and very poorly controlled diabetes, and, uh, had real difficulty in maintaining her blood glucose and frequently hospitalized. And, you know, and, you know, every time I made interpretation, she got worse. Uh uh. So, um, we figured out that that wasn't the way to go.
You know, they're telling ourselves that maybe eventually these, they will accumulate to something meaningful. So we then started talking to them about their lives, uh, and about, uh, what was troubling them, uh, in the relationships they had and so on and so forth. And I remember one of George's patients, um, uh, uh, we, he wrote up, um, uh, was, um, What was troubling her [00:23:00] and what kind of came out was that her father was so worried about her diabetes that he, uh, sat outside her door, uh, uh, to make sure she adolescent girl sat outside her door, uh, worrying that he, that she might, you know, go into, uh, hypoglycemia or ketotic state or whatever, uh, and uh, part himself there, which of course, really upsets her.
And she couldn't find a way of telling him not to do that, uh, because her concern that, you know, with her own body and her own, uh, sexual interest and whatever, um, uh, so, you know, George helped her, uh, uh, just deal with that conflict and, and, you know, create a space around herself. , um, as a, as a, as a, as a, as a growing woman with [00:24:00] diabetes.
Uh, but nevertheless, she was able to be herself, um, uh, and diabetic at the same time without her pa her parents, uh, intruding into her physical bodily, uh, uh, privacy and, uh, existence. Um, and, and, and, uh, we gradually found that to work better, uh, than, uh, the traditional psychological explanations about EDUs and, uh, her interest in her father for his sexuality or that his father's interest in her sexuality.
Uh, you talked about more about their feelings, about privacy and, uh, uh, uh, and what needing to grow up and, uh, um, how difficult it was. Um, so that. Created a content, a change in content, but that [00:25:00] didn't become, uh, formalized, uh, until we linked with attachment theory, um, uh, where we kind of formalized that interest.
And then, uh, I linked up with Anthony Bateman and, and, and working formally with, uh, uh, borderline people. But, uh, I would say, um, uh, that's, that's, and it's not a disillusionment with, uh, the technique. I think, uh, the technique is perfectly good for people who are, um, not very ill. I think it's a lot more limited for people who, whose capacity to Alize is poor.
Lisa, this seems to me like a perfect moment for one of the questions you were curious about. Well, um, Yes. I have a question concerning, um, medical assistance in dying. Um, uh, because in Canada, uh, in [00:26:00] 2016 there was a legislation that was passed that, um, you can request medical assistance in dying and this made law, um, it's going to be made, um, be accessible for people suffering from mental health disorders in 2024.
And I wanted to ask you, like, working with individuals with mental health disorders, such as with borderline Cy Psychopathology, would you mind sharing your thoughts on the possible implications of such an option? And what consequences do you think this might mean, especially for, um, the patient group suffering from borderline psych pathology?
Well, I mean, quite simply, any pathology, um, that is. Uh, very evidently possible to address even in very suicidal patients, um, with, uh, adequate psychotherapy is not appropriate [00:27:00] for, um, medically assisted dying. Mm. Uh, and, uh, any doctor who assists a person like that is committing murder. That's maybe overly categorical, but, uh, uh, I do feel that individuals who are suicidal are stigmatized by our society, uh, and are oftentimes not offered adequate assistance because of that stigma.
Mm-hmm. , uh, they don't deserve assistance because they, they're bringing it all on themselves. Uh, and having ha be, being somebody whose own history includes quite severe suicidality. Um, at one point, um, I had a very clear suicidal plan, uh, and, uh, I knew what I was going to do. Uh, and uh, uh, I have a lot of empathy with people like that.
Um, [00:28:00] so if somebody assisted me to die, then I would not be grateful for. I had a lot of good days between then and now. Um, I had some miserable days as well. I'm not one to exaggerate . Uh, uh, I had a few good days, so, uh, uh, and I have two lovely kids, and, uh, I'm still married. Uh, you know, uh, so is, it hasn't been bad.
Uh uh, so I would now be really crossed from up there if somebody had assisted me to die at that age. So, uh, I'm very categorical, uh, and that's why I'm, uh, quite categorical. Um, . Having said that, uh, there are people who suffer a great deal. Um, uh, there are people, um, who suffer a great deal and are no longer able to [00:29:00] request that kind of assistance.
Um, who have, uh, severe dementia, uh, uh, I, uh, uh, am far less certain, uh, that, uh, medically assisted dying is not appropriate for that group. Um, I don't want, I don't know what it's like to be inside the mind of someone like that. Uh, I know if I project myself into that person, and I imagine myself to be terrified every 10 minutes about where I am, because I no longer recognize that I have been in here.
for the last five years. Uh, and I don't know, and I, where am I going to sleep tonight? You know, whatever. Uh, where is this? Uh, uh, that can't be a nice per, it's a permanent [00:30:00] state of, uh, uh, distress. And I, I have no difficulty in, in thinking that I would far prefer to be dead than to be in that state. Mm-hmm.
have I answered your question? Yeah, sure, sure. Yeah. Yeah. I just, uh, find, I think personally it's a very like, dangerous road to go down what's happening in Canada, especially for patients suffering from borderline psychopathology because, um, my experience, suicidal ideation and that can come and go and, um, yeah, I just find it very worrying.
Yeah. I mean, you know, it it, it does. And uh, it's, it's any doctor who, who who's found even one occasion to do that should be struck off. Mm-hmm. . Uh, so I, I I have no, you know, it's, it's, I'm not worried about it. I'm cross about it. . That's good.[00:31:00]
Um, oh, sorry. Sorry. Yeah, sure. Uh, no, please go. It's another question. I just meant to say that it was my impression a couple of minutes ago that you see mentalization based treatment as one part of csis, that you see them as one thing and not two strictly divided approach. , is that correct? That is correct, but I have to be honest, and I see that as a critical part of cognitive behavior therapy as a critical part of systemic therapy.
I feel part of humanistic therapy, I see it everywhere I look, I see mentalizing. It's just like, uh, uh, uh, so that's, I think being sign of an infection probably. Um, , the bug of mentalizing has gone. So I would say it's an aspect of psychoanalysis. I wouldn't say, uh, it is psychoanalysis. And I would [00:32:00] say, I wouldn't even say, you know, that's the only thing that makes psychoanalysis effective or even the major thing that makes psycho effective.
And some would say that it makes psychoanalysis accessible. Mm-hmm. , uh, in the classical form to people. So helping people dis recover, mentalizing, maybe a phase of an analytic process. Uh, an early phase of analytic process. The preparation for it. Yeah, exactly. Uh, and I wouldn't, I disagree with that. I, I think what analysts are often not aware of and are poorly trained in, if I may say, and I, I, I, I don't like being critical.
Uh, and that's not my thing. Uh, uh, and it sounded, it came out as critical and I didn't intend it like that. Uh, but I think what analysts are sometimes not trained adequately to recognize is when their patients lost the capacity to Alize. So they hammer them on the head hoping that they're [00:33:00] hammering on the head to help them recover mentalizing.
And what they don't do adequately is take a step back. See, in M B T, we train people, but when you notice that your patient is not mentalizing, we, we train them to actually, but there's a time to pull back. And enable and help the person recover. Mentalizing your role is not to give them insight because they can't understand what you're saying Your role is enable them to think and to feel comprehensively and fully.
And that's what people don't get trained in, uh, in, in my view, adequately. Um, so a little bit of M B T training as part of me, as a part of energy training to me would be good. Have I ever, ever been asked by the British Psychic Society to do any training or even give a lecture? No, [00:34:00] not, not a lecture. No.
Not even a lecture. Nothing. Uh uh uh, and, you know, it's, it's, you feel a bit more like, um, uh, Dracula. Or whatever, , cheap . Uh, so, uh, I, I, I, I dunno, uh, I'm, um, what about other, other societies besides the British one? Because we know the British one as the, um, um, this, um, center of what I call, and most of my Latin American colleagues, colleagues call the secondly telenovela, no.
Where you get the controversial discussions in this one takes that one. And, uh, they write against each other or they talk against each other, uh, which makes for us Latin Americans second analysis so much more, you know, taste and, and, and, uh, and fine. Uh, but what about other schools of psychoanalysis, maybe outside [00:35:00] Britain?
Have they been a bit more open to the idea of mentalizing to the practice? It Latin America? Mostly, actually, I would say, um, United States, no, not really. Uh, Uh, Canada more, um, Europe patches, but Europe is not in a single place. It's, it's very different in very different places. Uh, when you refer to these places, do, are you referring to psychoanalytic institutes?
That societies there? Yeah, I'm talking my second institute. Uh, um, so people who have been psychologically trained or members of the institute becoming interested in mentalizing rather than, uh, people who have trained in clinical psychology or systemic therapy, people like that drift towards mentalizing because they're working with patients and it's a skill to acquire that helps you to work with patients.
So you know [00:36:00] that you can also learn about e mdr, you know, and you can learn about M B T, you know, it's, uh, uh, so, uh, it's, uh, it's helpful, but, uh, and. . Our view is, my view is very deeply, um, uh, that we don't have the answer. Uh, we don't even have an answer. We have something in AMT that might be helpful occasionally in the course of a treatment, uh, uh, that God knows what makes, uh, I don't want to blame him or her.
Uh, but, you know, something makes, uh, uh, patients get better. Uh, nobody really knows what it is. Very many different therapies work. I think mentalizing at different times helps a little bit. Uh, and that's really all I would claim for. It does happen, I suppose, uh, in people who, who work as clinicians that they see in the concept of mentalizing [00:37:00] something that they are kinda doing.
Uh, but you know, it circumscribed it, it gives it some technical coherence, but that you say like, oh, I'm getting paid to actually do that. You know? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, it's, it's, uh, we desired if it wasn't so because, uh, it's such a basic human, I mean, now, no. That, um, uh, the part of the brain that's busy, uh, when it's not doing anything is the mentalizing network.
Uh, so, uh, uh, uh, it's the way humans think. Uh, what's called the default mode network is the mentalizing network. It's overlapping with it. It, and that's what hap what's active. When people in the scanner not doing anything, they're thinking about mental states, uh, their own or other people. So, you know, it'd be very odd if psychotherapist did something different.
So it's, this has, this [00:38:00] has profound consequences for our understanding of the hectic pace of the 21st century and all of the distractions we are suffering from almost at any moment. It, it does have, uh, that we, we don't give enough time for ourselves to reflect and to just let the brain. I'm optimistic about it though, Alex.
I would say, um, uh, that these are such profound, um, genetic predispositions that there's nothing that, uh, a few kind of social, uh, habits can do to undo them. Uh, you know, there are some threats, I would say, uh, artificial intelligence being won, uh, uh, pretty profound. But I, I would say, um, uh, the hectic pace, um, people get tired of the hectic pace.[00:39:00]
Uh, it's just the, the brain gets tired, , uh, and they, they kind of settle down and, uh, easy thing anyway. Uh, I don't know. But you're right. Uh, we are the, there's a po the possibility to drift, in some respects towards inadequate mentalizing is there by, in the modern, in the structure of modern society. I, I would say more in the social inequality side than in the, uh, uh, than in, uh, the hectic phase.
Yeah. We were just, uh, before we connected, we were just talking about this, uh, how mentalizing and particularly epistemic trust as concepts that are, I mean, they have their origin in clinical work, et cetera. Uh, how they open to the social environment. They, um, the widened. society, et cetera, marks a little bit.
The limits of our practice being it's [00:40:00] psychotherapy or psychoanalysis, uh, but also gives opportunities for those other things in psychology that we don't take that seriously. I, I do with equal, basically, but prevention, uh, ways, providing environments in a certain way, uh, development, et cetera, apart from finding that mentalizing is something that you already do in therapy, it is something that makes life better outside therapy.
Good, good. ? Yeah. You were extremely modest at the very beginning. Introducing yourself in a couple of sentences, but you contributed so much to the research literature and to, to, uh, theoretical aspects of psychoanalysis. , what would you think about, what do you consider your most important contributions?
Which ones do you still enjoy? Uh, I wrote a paper, uh, [00:41:00] on thinking about thinking, which is I, I, uh, uh, you know, that's what I feel kind of proud of. Um, um, I also feel, um, uh, proud of, uh, not necessarily my, uh, important almost contribu, or not even my contribution, but of bringing, um, evidence-based practice to psychoanalysis, um, uh, and seconding psychotherapy, um, in many countries.
Um, we would be worse off, uh, if, uh, we hadn't worked hard to collect some data, uh, about the effectiveness of psychotherapy, secondary psychotherapy, and uh, um, Uh, I think it was a group effort of a number of people at a certain, his point of historical time [00:42:00] when we kind of stood up against the mainstream psychoanalysis, uh, and said, look, um, it's time, uh, that we started looking seriously high effective.
This whole thing is, and I, I feel, you know, for example, in this country, um, there is a, a service called improved access to psychological therapies. Now the, the Talking Therapist services been renamed and, uh, um, it's, uh, um, it includes, um, uh, psychedelic psychotherapy called Dynamic interpersonal therapy because we've done empirical research on that and because we've got a randomized contrary trial, and if we didn't, uh, it wouldn't.
but it's provided free. Um, and there is, uh, very quite heavy demand, uh, for, to train people in dynamic [00:43:00] interpersonal therapy. Uh, as a consequence, people want to be trained in it because you get reimbursed as is where you get paid, uh, to use that. So it's kind of interacted, uh, with things. Um, uh, so that if I had to identify two things, then it would be the, um, uh, thinking about thinking and, uh, uh, uh, doing randomized control trials of psychotherapy.
I just imagine, I cannot know, but I imagine that most people connect your name with attachment mentalization and epistemic trust as concepts, and you haven't mentioned any of them. I mean, mentalizing is there, uh, in the thinking about thinking paper. Mm-hmm. Uh, attachment, uh, I think, um, I was an attachment theorist for a good 15 years [00:44:00] of my life.
Maybe longer. I'm still, uh, committed to it, and I still write about it occasionally, but I am, uh, seeing it as much more like a narrow band. It's, it's, it's, um, makes you ignore, uh, attachments if you like, outside of the diotic outside, uh, makes you ignore as, uh, Nicola was talking about earlier, the kind of the broader social context, uh, which is a, I think, a problem.
And then I feel that it, it, it didn't help me with, um, an epistemic trust comes from that recognition. It's more recent, it needs much more empirical work, uh, as an idea. It's good. Uh, it needs really to be properly hammered out, and I'm glad that a lot of people are working on it. Uh, but, um, uh, yeah. Do you [00:45:00] think, um, within the secondly institutes, what you know about them, uh, the, uh, attitude, let's say towards empirical research?
Has it changed in the last, let's say 30 years or, because I know for example, that the risk at pushback, I mean, uh, the, the empirical, the studies of psycho analysis, of course have been really useful of psychoanalytic therapy. Really useful to reposition psycho analysis as a clinical alternative, particularly in public, uh, context, which is amazing in my opinion.
But within the institutes, uh, have seen that some people have. Published things just clearly against empirical risk, clearly against, uh, neurobiological, neuro imaging, uh, insights. Have you seen it changing? Is it, is it stock and the age average also of people training in incidents all over the [00:46:00] world?
We've seen with Alexander, it's, it's getting older and over older and, and I dunno what, have you seen any change? Do you think it could happen? I dunno. I mean, I, have I seen a change? Yes, I have. In the British Institute, I started a, a research committee, uh, which was about, uh, and that went on with a number of chairs long after I stopped chairing it.
Um, a number of years, uh, it's then, then it's abolished. It got abolished. Uh, it was, I wasn't by then there to see. Uh, why, but it was abolished. Um, uh,
this kind of speaks to the, the phenomenon that you're speaking to. Uh, I do believe that there is a, a psychoanalysis in the institute has, and [00:47:00] most institutes stopped training analysts and they're started training psychotherapists in, in honesty, because the practice of psychoanalysis is five times a week, or even four times a week, has diminished, uh, and has been replaced by two or three times a week, psychotherapy at best.
Um, I think, uh, uh, their, uh, it's inevitable that they became, their lives became more, uh, governed by the external reality. of empirical, of empirical reality, uh, and they couldn't avoid it anymore. So I think I can understand a theoretical push against it, uh, because no one likes reality . Uh, so, you know, it's, it's, it's too much reality about I want to push against it.
Uh, so I, uh, I will push against this bit of reality. Does it matter to me? No, not really. [00:48:00] Uh, it's, you know, reality is there. Unfortunately, it's, uh, uh, you know, it's, uh, uh, when I start liking reality at all. I don't know, that's not very common . Uh, but, uh, uh, you know, it's, uh, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a fantasy that psychoanalysis, um, as a therapeutic orientation can exist without considering the benefit.
I think psychoanalysis is an enormous amount to contribute. to, uh, making sure that what we measure are not symptoms, um, not distress simply, uh, because at the moment, uh, what is measured, um, is what's easy to measure, uh, which is distress, but that you measure the difficult things. Uh, I mean, I always wanted to say that, you know, a, a [00:49:00] good therapeutic outcome is a person's sense of humor improving.
Mm-hmm. , uh, if their sense of humor doesn't improve the therapy was a failure. Uh, why is that matter? Because, uh, as Freud said, uh, there's no humor without aggression. If you, if you don't have a sense of humor, you can't tolerate aggression, uh, you tolerate aggression, you know, you, you're starting to laugh.
Um, So, you know, it's all, it's built into the theory. Freud, 1904 or 1905. I can't, I remember anyway, jokes and their relation to the unconscious. I'm sure Alexander announced the date, well, the very beginning of the 20th century, no doubt. But,
uh, anyway, um, uh, so it's, it's, you know, it's one of the first things that Freud discovered, just how closely, uh, the libido is linked to laughing. Uh, and if people don't laugh, they're not linked to the libido. If they don't laugh, they're not linked, uh, to [00:50:00] aggression. Uh, so, uh, uh, that, that therapy fail, uh, it's a good way to see that.
Uh, but we don't measure sense of humor. Uh, uh, but I actually personally always do in, when I do assessments, I try and make my patients, uh, at least smile in a very, um, Tentative way and in a, in a way that's, uh, always self effacive. Uh, but I see a joke about myself, about my aids, my hair, my, you know, something, uh, about me.
And if it makes them smile, I think that's good. They could laugh at me, they could laugh at me. I can treat them. If they can't laugh at me, it's much, much more difficult. There is a, there is a 15 minute video, let's say in the YouTube channel of the Annana fro in which an Anthony Bateman is with the real patients.
And it's a 50 minutes that [00:51:00] go really dark at some point, et cetera, and the patient starts getting a little bit, uh, dysregulated and it ends with a joke and it's closes so well is what you're, I dunno if you've seen this video, uh, it's, uh, marvelous. And it has to do with this thing of tumor that just.
explained so well, and I think, uh, do you think there is any empirical way to measure this? I, I'm, I'm sure there is, and I'm sure it's not gonna be me that, uh, it's funny, some hapless, uh, master student at the EPU that, uh, gets with this task. Uh, there is research on humor. I, I'm, I'm not really familiar with it, but I know there are people around the globe who are doing something about psychology, but I don't know any studies, Alex, that actually uses a measure of psychotherapy outcome.
Do you? No, not no psychotherapy, but, but people are interested in where comes from and different types and so, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. That, that, so I'm sure [00:52:00] to the therapeutic relationship, being able to laugh at your therapist or at least smile at your therapist, I think is a clear indication that you're, you've done well in that therapy.
Mm-hmm. Uh, that, that, going back to my first analysis, that was one of the things that, uh, that uh, uh, really, um, well drew me to, uh, ed Harry. She had a sense of humor. She laughed at my jokes for a start, and then she made jokes as well. She made me laugh. I've encouraged you speak so fondly of your analyst.
I'm curious about your possible intellectual academic mentors or supervisors or people you learned from how to become a scientist and so on. Yeah, I mean, there are, there is in, in the analytical world that says, um, one person now two, uh, who, who, uh, really influenced me. The person who influenced him most [00:53:00] is, uh, Joseph Sandler Unquestionably, uh, who I think is one of the great unrecognized thinkers of the psych community.
And I, I. I, uh, when I was asked, I'm no longer am, but when I was asked to teach at, uh, the, I was asked to teach about Jews of Santa. Um, but I think they canceled those lectures as well, not just because of me. They cla, they canceled. It wasn't, uh, of Joseph Santa was in sufficient interest. And what he did, um, was really, uh, try and systematize and minimize analytics theory.
Make it, um, uh, not to carry such massive weight of assumptions, but actually to get it into a, a, a format and shape that, um, uh, could travel more easily towards other disciplines that could travel, uh, across [00:54:00] orientation. So his theory, his formulation could travel from a classical Freudian to an Ana Freudian to an ego psychology to.
A, uh, finance orientation quite easily, uh, uh, because it got rid of a lot of the, and that's his theory of the representational world. Uh, but nobody teaches it anymore, uh, as far as I know. Uh, but that was, uh, a major, uh, intellectual, uh, I, I, I would say I still use his ideas and I'm still influenced by them.
It, it has, I haven't outgrown them in any way. Um, uh, and, uh, um, uh, on the, uh, uh, on my kind of other side, um, it's, it's less easy to identify. [00:55:00] Someone, but someone like Ellen Castin, uh, who probably you, none of, you know, uh, influence me lot. He's a, a child psychologist uhs, president of the American Psychological Association.
But, um, he, um, wrote about evaluating child therapy and was, uh, kind of an, I'm an outcomes person and not, was a, his original training was in C B T, but was very, very open to other orientations, including the analytic. And, uh, uh, was director of, uh, the Yale Child Study Center for a while after, um, uh, Donald Cohen died and he was the first non analysts director of the ER child center.
And I have to say that he did his term, uh, but uh, the way that the analyst treated him, At the Child Studies [00:56:00] Center, it was really not good cause he was very open in his mind, but they weren't very open to him. Mm-hmm. because, because his, he was, uh, for two reasons. One, he was a psychologist, uh, not a, a psychiatrist or, or a physician.
Um, and the other is that because his original training was in C B T mm-hmm. . And how did he actually influence your work? Sorry? How did he actually influence your work? Is my, my attitude to evaluation of, uh, psychological therapist is, uh, very influenced by, uh, is attitude of measurement and openness and manual and, uh, what he wrote about, and, and also single session, uh, looking at single session outcomes and, uh, uh, uh, Single case studies and, uh, a lot of the things [00:57:00] that, uh, uh, I believe in, in terms of evaluating psychotherapy, actually origin his ideas.
Uh, and I borrowed it from him and imported into the kind of psychology community pretending it was all my idea. Uh, I really here in Japan, but, so as I would say, uh, sand, uh, and Alan Castin would be the two people. Have you ever worked, I know you have been in contact, but have you ever worked with John Bobbi or studied with him?
I, I, John Bobbi. I was at the, I was, uh, as a junior lecturer at ucl, uh, appointed as the, uh, college liaison officer, uh, to the, uh, fre Memorial professor and, uh, uh, that, uh, Was because I was interested in psychoanalysis and I was a lecturer in psychology. Uh, and there was nobody else who was [00:58:00] interested in psychol psychoanalysis in the psychology department.
So, uh, it wasn't through any other, um, attribute except that, that I was appointed in this August position. And John Baldy was a fraud memorial professor. So, uh, for a year, uh, or so, I worked with him quite closely, organized his seminars, organized his lectures, uh, uh, Getti, got his, uh, audiences together. Uh, I was, um, putting charge of being the, the person who arranged, you know, it was an administrative post really.
Uh, but I worked with him then. Uh, and, uh, he was very nice to me. Uh, uh, I, and uh, the only influence I had on his work, uh, was. Uh, introducing him to some, uh, work on perception, uh, uh, on low signal to noisy issue [00:59:00] stimuli, , uh, uh, and, uh, uh, it found its way into his, the, he was writing at the time, he was writing the third volume of his trilogy.
And, uh, uh, he, uh, actually includes, not me, but includes the literature that I referred him to in the third volume of his trilogy. Um, so, uh, that, that was the closest I got. And I interviewed him, um, as well, uh, for the, uh, institution of Psych Analysis at the time. Uh, was that ever published? The interview, uh, is a, is a video interview.
Um, so I think it's there in the archives, some, the archives, the British Society. Um, Uh, it's, um, uh, wasn't the best interview ever , uh, but he talks about his work and, uh, uh, [01:00:00] it was, it was, it was a friendly interview, but, uh, not, not very searching. Uh, anyway, it was it in awe of him. Yeah. But I imagine that you would be in awe of him.
Yeah.
Do you guys have more questions? I would like to, sorry. Seems like my phone is now, the battery is getting, hello. I have all sorts of technological problems today. I want to ask you something about your vision of the future of Cyanosis. Where do you think it's going? How might it develop? what you would like to change about it?
Yeah, I, so, uh, I think, um, it should stay, uh, a uh, pretty much what it is. Uh, [01:01:00] I, I don't want it to change dramatically, I think as a way of discovering, uh, things about the human mind in a phenomenological context. It is unparalleled. Uh, and the kind of intensive search for the mind, um, is absolutely brilliant and fortunately hasn't changed a lot, uh, over, you know, the technical, uh, parts change little.
I, I don't think, uh, that, uh, we will discover, um, very much more, uh, That's to do, uh, with, uh, things like the, uh, unconscious or, uh, the, the ego, the content wise. I think, uh, we have made the discoveries that we are going to make. I think that discoveries are going to be made [01:02:00] in adjacent Jason human-oriented sciences in, in more often and, um, uh, with greater, um, uh, I think, uh, with, uh, uh, far greater impact on, on, on all of our lives, uh, in artificial intelligence, in all kind of neuroscience, in all kinds of areas.
What I think psychoanalysis should be there for is to study the impact of these new discoveries on, uh, the human mind. phenomenologically. Uh, what impact, say you mentioned earlier, Alex, the hectic nature of, uh, modern society. That's a change. What impact does it have on mental function? And I think for that, or what impact does, [01:03:00] uh, for that matter, zoom that we are enjoying at the moment have on human function?
What impact, um, does, uh, a greater understanding of the mind have on you to, as a laboratory of, uh, understanding ourselves as human beings? I think psychoanalysis knows no parallels. I think it's a lot better than a questionnaire, and it comes up a lot deeper insights provides a lot deeper insights than, uh, a, a structured interview.
Um, so as long as. Uh, we focus on what we are good at, uh, as psychoanalyst, which is studying the nature of the impact of, uh, the world on the individual mind, the social world, the physical world, uh, changing in its understanding of [01:04:00] itself and changing, uh, in the way it presents itself to us. As long as we focus on that, uh, I think, uh, we are, uh, we are going to be alive as a discipline forever.
I think if we try and pretend that we are still in the, uh, early 19 hundreds and try and rediscover the mind again and again and again, we are in deep trouble because there are other methods that have overtaken us, uh, in those domains that do it better than we do at the time that we started doing it.
aggression, uh, is, uh, could be best discovered. You know, unconscious could be be best discovered through cyclone psychotherapy. Now unconscious, much better seen, uh, in a scanner, much more clearly seen in a scanner, uh, much more easily understood and interpreted. So we have to give [01:05:00] way to other sciences at the same time as we actually just acknowledge, uh, uh, uh, uh, superiority.
We claim our superiority in a more, in a braver way than we do up to now. There is a thought in Eric Candel that I, I don't remember it word by word, that neurosciences need psychoanalysis in order to be able to understand their findings. Does that make sense to you? , that's exactly the kind of thing that I'm getting at.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. , uh, that the physical observation of, uh, um, things lighting up when somebody's not aware of them. That the same bit of the brain lights up, uh, processing something when they're not aware, and it makes a difference whether it's meaningful or not, that clearly people are extracting meaning from things that they're not aware of.
Mm-hmm. . [01:06:00] Now what context does it mean? Anything? And what context, what is the implication of that? Uh, for, uh, people's daily functioning? That's not going to ever be revealed fully, uh, by neuroscience, you know, and the same applies to the experience of emotion, the complexity of emotion, everything, every aspect, every important.
You know, you're not going to, you know, uh, , you know, you know, tall story or, or this, these things are not going to be written by neuroscience. Mm-hmm. , uh, the, the, the complexity of human self and interpersonal awareness is not going to unfold, uh, in a scanner, uh, that's going to unfold in the flow study of another man.
This sounds like, like a very optimistic image [01:07:00] for the future of psychoanalysis. I'm curious whether you are still a member of any of psycholytic institutions or associations and how, how do you see, do you see their future as optimistically? No, uh, is the single word answer. I see psychoanalysis as having a great future, as a, as an understanding, as a science.
Psychedelic institutes. To have ups and downs. Uh, um, I pay my membership dues for a British psychic society. I pay my membership dues to the, um, uh, British, uh, confederation or whatever they call the dp, psyche, uh, council. It's called Psychic Council. I pay my own, my membership queues. Um, and, uh, they always suggest I should retire and know.
We see I'm not retired. I'm still practicing, uh, uh, and uh, so, uh, I don't take advantage of, uh, the, the [01:08:00] elderly yet this, uh, benefit. Uh, um, and, and I also on the buses, I could travel free, but I never travel free on the buses. I'm still employed. Um, so, um, uh, the. So does this mean that psycho psychoanalytic institutions in England and Britain would like you retired, would like you not publishing, asking, and so on?
I don't know. I mean, that's, that makes, makes, makes me sound more important than I am. I mean, you know, it's not, it's not that they care one way or another. It's really, um, uh, they have benign neglect, I would say. Uh, they don't care, uh, whether I'm there or not. Um, it's, and I don't mind, uh, we kind of coexist much the same way that people kind of coexist when they live in a, [01:09:00] in apartments next door to each other and they don't, you know, they say hello when they meet, uh, but they don't really care what happens in the other apartment and they don't care what happens with me.
And, you know, and I think that's fine. Uh, I don't, I don't want to. The last thing I want to do, Alex, is to influence psychoanalysis. Uh, I don't, you know, as I said, I mentioned it would be good if analysts were a little bit more aware of when the patients are no longer mentalizing when they say that, but, you know, they do what they do and that's fine.
Uh, and I, I admire it. They sometimes I am slightly worried or anxious institutionally, they, um, uh, do not, are not as, as aware of their limitations as they should do [01:10:00] that. They, they, they claim to be able to do things that I don't think they can. And that really refers to the treatment of, uh, uh, more severe mental disorders.
Uh, but that's, I, I don't think to claim that in a blanket critical way would be wrong. Uh, I don't think that everybody's like that. Um, but I do think that, that that does happen. Um, and that's an institution.
Um, speaking about the PSYCHOLYTIC training, uh, I wanted to ask you if there is something special that you would think would be valuable for someone who is about to enter psycholytic, uh, training to keep in mind? Uh, yes. Um, openness. Mm-hmm. , I would say in one word. Mm-hmm. , [01:11:00] uh, openness, which has implies within it I was talking about before.
Um, as well, it's, um, Openness and honesty with yourself. Uh, just going to the places where you least want to go to. Mm-hmm. , that's the most interesting bit. Uh, if you want to go into therapy, go into therapy. Not to treat your difficulties, not to get better at, uh, socializing or better academically or whatever.
Maybe you will, maybe you want that's not, but go to therapy so that you can talk about the things that you don't want to talk about even to yourself, but talk about that to another person. Mm-hmm. , that's really what I think. [01:12:00] Uh, it's like, so, you know, talk about the things that you feel most ashamed of, that you least want to talk about, and that I think opens your mind.
a whole host of things that you really didn't know that existed. You open your minds to little corners within yours, but at the same time, you open your mind to a whole slew of things, um, in other people's minds. Mm-hmm. , uh, and, uh, a way of experiencing your life that's far fuller than you ever thought possible.
Um, so, uh, and, and that's it. It'll just make you have a better life. Uh, don't go to therapy to solve problems. Um, go to therapy because you are curious, because you want to discover, uh, because you're not really satisfied with knowing as little as you do. [01:13:00] Cool. Thank you. How does it sound, Lisa? Sorry. How does that sound?
It sounds exciting. Very exciting. . Um, a little bit intimidating also, but also very exciting. I wanted to ask also, I mean this, um, questions probably for three of you, but you sometimes, I mean, do you sometimes regret the choice of becoming a psych analyst? What are the downsides? , sorry to be negative. . I would've liked to be a rockstar.
To be a, yeah. . . I think, uh, in my case, I don't, I think it's, uh, it's great and, uh, it allows me to feel useful. On one hand, uh, I like it as a, and find it interesting and entertainment. Maybe entertaining is not the best word to talk about this thing, but I have to be honest and it's entertaining. Uh, and [01:14:00] I think Psycho has this thing like maybe in this history that.
it's been always open to other disciplines and sciences. Some of them not even connected to mental health, like art. Mm-hmm. , uh, all kinds of art. And that to me is, uh, is priceless. It's one of the things that I like the most about, uh, psychoanalysis. Not only because I get to work with patients in a certain way, but because I see some of the things I like the most.
Music, uh, visual arts from that perspective. And it really, it works kind of, uh, in a, in a two way street. So I mm-hmm. , I get enriched by psychoanalysis and I get enriched by the arts or humanities. I, I love that about psychoanalysis, to be honest. Mm-hmm.
the important people should, uh, answer that question too.
Alex, do you ever get disappointed, [01:15:00] frustrated with it? Um, Nothing makes me as curious as listening to patients as thinking about the unconscious. I have never discovered anything, although I like many other things in life that I'm so curious about. I suffer from a problem in recent years that I think the more I understand psychoanalysis and the more I understand patients, the less I understand psychoanalytic institutions.
I, I feel sometimes that they're boring at best, and that is my disappointment. Psychoanalysis as a community does not develop nearly in nearly as interesting ways as some individual psycho enlists, whom I'm reading to, but working with patients never, I mean, I never regret. . [01:16:00] I, I, I would echo both of what, what you've just said.
Uh, very, very much. Uh, I mean, um, and I don't, I don't think I've ever regretted, uh, training or, or doing, or any, any, I don't think I'm very grateful for it. Um, uh, even when I don't, um, practice it, it's intensive psych analysis. I don't, I don't practice anymore. But, uh, I, I'm still pleased that I could do it if I wanted to do it.
Um, uh, sometimes, um, be very honest. Okay. I'm, I'm, now, this is as honest as I can be. This is, I sometimes I'm disappointed by indivi in individual psycho. Mm-hmm. Uh, not in. not as a [01:17:00] community. As I said, I, I like the dialogue, I like the discourse. That's great. But there are some individuals who claim they are psychoanalyst, but they're not to my mind, uh, embodying the principles that I consider to be com, you know, are other psyche principles.
And that, that, that's when those moments, I, I sometimes I regret that we belong to the same tribe. Mm-hmm. , to see what I mean. That's, they are individuals.
Nobody's taken, this is dishonesty and things like that. Mm-hmm. , I know we've taken so much of your time, but I would like only to ask you to tell us something about your future plans. What is it that you are working on at this moment? and what would you like to work on the [01:18:00] coming years? Where do you see the, the most important points for your work and for our disciplines?
Yeah. Um, well that, I, I don't know whether I can, uh, um, answer that question fully. I just got my ucl my job at, uh, uh, UCL renewed for another five years. So, uh, I'm going to be here, uh, in this office managing a large division of psychology and language sciences for another five years. Um, which is great. I, it's a privilege and I enjoy it.
And, uh, they, they pay me for answering emails basically, uh, uh, is what it is. Uh, I'm unsure about that. . Uh, so, um, I have an administrative job that in a top university that I do enjoy. Um, [01:19:00] uh, and it's very nice, uh, for a psychoanalyst to be running a department, a division with, with about 300 staff that people know I'm a psychoanalyst.
And that doesn't seem to, you know, it gives a little bit of respectability to the profession. I, I like to think that, you know, they can, you know, it is fun. He's a psycho, but he, you know, seems like, like a reasonable guy, you know, he doesn't, he's not, he's not a, he's not, doesn't have horns or, you know, a tail or, you know, uh, uh, is just a human being.
Um, so that, that is, is I, that's, I find, and I'd like to do that, I'd like to carry on doing that, uh, uh, for the next five years, uh, which is a kind of popularization of psychoanalysis in a, in a very, um, Human, very low level, uh, of just people accepting that there is somebody who's a scientist of [01:20:00] a, in a, in a scientific department that does psychoanalysis.
Uh, and I, one of the things I'm most proud of is that some idiot from, uh, Scotland somewhere I can, but distinguished me, fellow of the Royal Society, wrote to UCL to say, how can UCL have a psychoanalysis unit with a professor of psychoanalysis? How is that possible in this, you know, in this? And, uh, uh, the Dan Provost sent me the, uh, uh, the letter and replied saying that actually we find this particular part of the university very productive.
And, uh, they have, uh, uh, publication records that equals any other part of the depart, uh, the division. An income record in terms of grants. So, you know, we have no plans to, uh, change mm-hmm. , uh, uh, anyway, so I, I felt that that was very gratifying. Um, [01:21:00] so I intend to continue that. Uh, but, um, in terms of the future of psychoanalysis, I'm, I'm, uh, my own, uh, you know, uh, interests, um, in, in, in, uh, social issues are increasing.
So I'm, um, uh, more concerned, more worried, more, um, uh, exercised by what we can do as psychoanalyst, as clinicians, as mental health professionals, as psychologists or whatever in, uh, improving, um, uh, the way the society functions. and I'd like to, you know, of the things that I want to do. That's what I'd like to do.
I don't know. Unfortunately we have kind of a skills deficit here. Uh, I don't really know how to do it. Uh, but uh, [01:22:00] I'd like to do it if I could. That's why I'm more suggesting.