Why Parenting Boys is Harder Than Ever with Jennifer L. W. Fink

Jennifer L.W. Fink returns to Raising Men to explore why raising boys today feels increasingly complex and how parents can guide them with clarity and intentionality. Bringing decades of experience as a nurse, mother of four sons, and author of Building Boys, Jennifer addresses the cultural pressures, pathologized narratives, and digital environments shaping young males.

Together, Shaun and Jennifer unpack the developmental differences between boys and girls, highlighting how misunderstandings about male growth often lead to unnecessary friction at home and in school. They discuss the unique challenges of modern parenting, from hyper-scrutiny on social media to the loss of traditional community institutions, and offer practical ways mothers and fathers can foster real-world connections. Ultimately, Jennifer shares why looking past idealized expectations to truly connect with the boy right in front of you is the most powerful principle for raising great men.

Key Takeaways

• Developmental Timing Matters: Male developmental progress often differs from female timelines, and expecting young boys to sit still or perform academically too early can lead to unnecessary pathologizing.  
• Connection Over Absence of Sickness: True health and positive growth require active, forward-thinking support rather than simply trying to avoid negative outcomes or misbehavior.  
• Role Models Don't Need Perfection: Male influences and mentors do not have to be flawless to provide valuable guidance, life lessons, and positive examples for young boys.  
• Digital Pressures Require Vigilance: Modern boys face intense online environments, making intentional offline experiences and real-world relationships crucial for their growth.  
• Mothers and Fathers Face Distinct Pressures: Parents carry intense societal expectations regarding their sons' performance and behavior, making clear communication and patience essential. 

Chapter Markers

04:39 Why Building Boys was written and released in paperback
08:17 Health vs absence of sickness in raising boys
10:30 Expectations vs reality and developmental differences
14:17 Navigating school systems and male teacher shortages
19:48 Why parenting boys is harder today than a decade ago
22:23 Social media algorithms and permanent digital records
27:20 Crumbling community institutions and parental pressure
31:01 Finding masculine role models for sons without fathers in the home
34:10 Embracing imperfection in mentors and role models
38:47 The danger of seeking perfection over good guidance
40:51 The one principle for raising excellent men: Connect with the boy in front of you


Books, Links and Frameworks Mentioned

• Building Boys: Raising Great Guys in a World That Misunderstands Males by Jennifer L.W. Fink https://www.bloomsbury.com/us/building-boys-9798216455615/) & use promo code GLR RN2
• On Boys Podcast hosted by Jennifer L.W. Fink https://www.jenniferlwfink.com 
• https://www.on-boys-podcast.com/
• Suffering Model: Suffering occurs when expectations do not match reality, which can be used intentionally to drive growth or unintentionally through misunderstandings. 

What is Raising Men?

Raising Men is a podcast about parenting, masculinity, and the lifelong journey of raising sons—and ourselves—to be men of courage, character, and purpose. Hosted by Shaun Dawson, each episode features real conversations with parents, leaders, and thinkers redefining what it means to raising men in today’s world.

because you are at a point in time

when you are actively searching for ideas

and testing out ideas and identity

and developmentally appropriately

you know

trying to differentiate yourself from your parents

and testing you know

maybe their value system is not my value system

and that's healthy to a point

welcome back to raising men

I'm your host Shawn Dawson

as parents we navigate completely uncharted territory

especially these days and we're

you know I

I've talked a lot about how we're

caught in this bizarre cultural crossfire

where we're trying to reject toxic masculinity

without falling into some sort of empty opportunity

empty alternative of no masculinity at all

lately

I think there's been a a

a fantastic upswing

in the global conversation surrounding boys

and what they need to thrive

but if you look closely at who

is involved and leading that dialogue

it's heavily dominated by men

but moms are in the trenches of boyhood

every single day and

it doesn't make a whole lot of sense

to leave their voices out of the broader

cultural conversation on modern masculinity

so returning to the show is a phenomenal guest

a writer a nurse

a mother of four boys just like my mom

and the brilliant mind behind the On boys podcast

her groundbreaking book Building Boys

Raising Great Guys in a world That Misunderstands Males

is officially hitting shelves in paperback

in early August

Jennifer welcome back to Raising Men

now

you know your book has been out for a while

since 2,023 I believe and

and you are releasing it in paperback

talk to me about you know

how's it been received what

what at what rate

do you want to bring that into the world

in the first place

what made me want to bring it in the world

in the first place was uh

that I saw first of all

in myself how

what I didn't understand about boys

what I didn't understand about boy culture

what I didn't understand

about the world that they faced or

and didn't understand about male development

all interfered with effective parenting of boys

with helping boys become good men

it's really hard to do a good job at something

if you don't understand

the world in which you're operating

if you don't I mean

you've done business for years and years

if you're trying to launch a product

but you don't understand the market forces

and the social um

pressures and the culture

in which you are trying to

build and release this product

it's not going to be a successful launch

and I think that's really

really similar for parents

we start especially moms

we start with this idea of who we want our boys to be

and in the beginning of my book

I say actually

right now a lot of us

start with what we don't want

we know we don't want to raise a violent man

we don't want to raise a mass shooter

and yes

these are very very low bars

but it's also it speaks to all of these fears

we know that there have been a lot of men

and boys in the headlines

for doing some pretty horrendous things

and we're like hmm

something's wrong there how do I not do that

it's an okay starting point

but if you don't understand all of the cultural forces

all of the male development pieces

it's very difficult to be effective

so that's initially why I wrote Building Boys

why that subtitle is

in a world that misunderstands males

and so the book came out in 2023

and there has been an increase

I believe in talking about boys

in talking about raising great guys

raising men you're part of that conversation

increased

national and international conversations about boys

but

I still feel like there is a lot of misunderstanding

in that space

and that's a space that I hope that my book helps fill

and I have always personally felt like paperback is

it is the best format for a book

that's my personal preference curious what yours is

yeah actually my

my favorite format is digital because I find

you know I

it's out in digital form as well

isn't that something

I can cross reference things

I can I mean there

if I had to design that from scratch

I would I

I might do it differently but

but man

it is uh

so yeah

I um

I hardly ever and it's limited

um it's not

the kind of experience you can get from

from an actual physical paper copy of the book but uh

it also doesn't keep my wife up if I read it at night

so there there there

there you go you know I

um

what you describe is like

the difference between health and absence of sickness

and and if all you were trying to do is oh

I want to avoid getting

getting the flu and I want to avoid getting cancer

and I want to avoid getting

yes

you would never necessarily do things that you

I mean

you might walk around wearing a mask all the time

and then you're you're excluding the psychological help

health that you need from

you know talking to people face to face and and

and all of those things and

and that's what your you know

health is not the absence of sickness

it is something forward thinking

and it is something active and

and that's that's what you're describing with boys

I that the

the conversation around boys has gotten pathologized

in a way where you're just like

oh well

you know you yeah

you have to avoid becoming a

a school shooter

of course you do um

just like you have to avoid jumping off of a cliff

in order to remain healthy but it's not sufficient

you know as you said

that I think it's a uniquely American approach right

I mean in the United States

we have had this model

where health is avoiding sickness

and most of us at this point

can look around and see how

and why that's sort of

inadequate as a healthcare system

many of us feel let down by that system

or neglected by that system

and similarly you know

with health there's been this look and search for it

we we want a pill

we want a treatment we want a quick and easy thing

and health isn't that simple

raising boys isn't that simple

both are very complex endeavors

and they're multifaceted

involve a lot of different pieces

but as you alluded to with health

when we pay attention to those individual determinants

and to the environment

it's a difference between surviving and thriving

I've been doing this a lot of thinking recently about I

I I

came upon this concept that that uh

uh it was a definition of suffering

that I thought was really operational

and really useful which is that

suffering is when your expectations don't match reality

and so that might be because you

desire something that you can't have

and

it might be because

you have a mental model of the world

that isn't true right

and those things cause suffering

and what that means is that suffering is a choice

and it can be

um

it can be intentional like OK

I'm going to decide that I want that thing up there

I wanna be at the top of that mountain

and so I'm going

the the

the fact that I am not

right now at the top of the mountain

versus my vision of myself on top of that mountain

is suffering

and that suffering motivates me to climb upward

and that's good right

and in a lot of cases so not all suffering is bad

but unintentional suffering

or suffering that you don't feel that you chose is

or potentially bad and so I

you know I wonder

to what extent this model is there

that way of thinking about things is about

like really

about what we need to do to build our boys into men

in terms of getting them to choose their suffering

you know what I mean as opposed to

it feels to me like a very masculine thing

it is is identifying and being

able to choose your own suffering

and recognizing that that is

that is a choice and it is something that

that you opted into and it can be good and bad

there's a lot to think about there

and um

as you said it

I saw a very direct parallel to parents of boys

and especially moms suffering

is when your expectation don't match reality

I know and have talked to so many moms who are stressed

overwhelmed and suffering

they feel this very deeply

and part of it is

their expectations don't match reality

and what I mean by that and this is what we

part of what I talk about in the book

what they expect of their boy is a

based on a misunderstanding of who boys are

and how they grow

and what they're capable of at different points

so for instance

the pace of male development

is different than female development there

are so many little boys who are developmentally

not ready to sit still for long periods

to write to listen

to pay attention to read when they are 5 years old

but if our expectation is they should be able to

and they aren't

so often the parents conclude there is something

a wrong with the boy and moms especially

and I'm not I don't know about dad Sean

I'll let you answer that part

because I've not been a dad

but moms especially assume I'm doing something wrong

that I can't make this kid do what he should be doing

oh that is so true

I you know

when we spoke last time my son um

was in a school and all of the teachers

except for the PE teacher and the principal

were all women

and including his she was in kindergarten last

when we spoke last and boy

he was having a tough time

um in exactly the way that you described

and he's old for his class

he was born in January

so he's relatively old for the rest of his class

he's also much bigger than everybody

which has its own

uh challenges associated with it

but he had this male principal

that he could connect with it

a different way than with his

you know female teachers

and I think that really helped

and I you know

that profession there are far fewer men in in

in education now than there were when I was growing up

for example and I

I remember being young

and really feeling that need to connect with well

you know I would

I felt the need to connect with all my teachers

but I connected with my male teachers

in a different way than my female teachers

and me and maybe

maybe it's different as as I got older

certainly more of the teachers were men um

but that seems to me that

you know we have to deal with this

this culture

in which the school that our boys are gonna go to is

there are a lot more women than there are men

and we have to somehow figure out how to

help the school realize

you know how to work with the boy in such a way

to make him thrive in that that

that world like and and and that happened to us I mean

we ended up just having to work with the teachers

to go yeah

here's the deal with him like

I know he freaked out in this one situation

and that makes you think that he's uncontrollable

but he's really it's not that he's controllable

but you can you can get the result you want out of him

you just have to give him in my boy's case

he really likes having a plan

and he really likes

being able to do the thing that he's

concocted in his head so he creates his plan

often just by himself on his way

you know recently

it's the summertime now

and so we're taking him to daycare

and he had this horrible meltdown in daycare or sorry

in camp not daycare um

the other day where I mean he was just

you know went off by himself and was kicking the the

the dirt and all that stuff

he was really really upset for a while and you know

and you know

the the the camp counselors came to us and said

you know what do we do about you know

what how can we work with him about this

and it really it just we we said yeah

this is the way he gets when he gets frustrated

that he can't do what he expected to do

and in this case he you know

they had a Lego station

and he wanted to play in the Lego station

but they were closing the Lego station

because they were moving on to the

something else and he wasn't aware of that

so he created this plan in his head

where he got to do the Lego station

for a certain period of time

and he got to build this particular thing

and then he got to play with it in this particular way

he didn't share that plan with other people

by the way that's part of what I need to do

in order to help him thrive is dude

you gotta share your plans with people so they know

so they can help you and they can

they can they can you can help adjust your plan

yes yes

but once they were once they understood oh

this is really about him

just being able to do the thing that he wants to do

and then they can help him with that they can say hey

OK

oh well

that's not gonna work we're gonna do it

how about we do this instead

and then it was totally smooth and he's totally

it was perfect

and you know I think we think about these institutions

or these constructs the school is this

monolithic thing that is unchangeable

and well this is just the way things are

and we're gonna have to this

we're gonna have to work with it

and to some extent

that's true and that's a healthy attitude

but there's another side of that tension

which is no you don't really have to you

you don't have to let it impose

on you

you don't have to change yourself for that necessarily

unnecessarily and I

I think that was an important thing

that that's something that has helped us really succeed

in some ways and you know

it's not like we're fully successful there um

but I mean why let me ask you this

it seems to me that being the mother of boys

now is way harder than it was a decade ago

and way harder than it was 20 years ago

do you agree with that and then and why

uh let me go back

you said first way harder than a decade ago

OK so a decade ago is really when I was in the trenches

right now my youngest is 20

so a decade ago he was ten

um my oldest is now uh 28

so a decade ago he was 18

so I had I was right in that teen mess a decade ago

for me I think

one of the biggest challenges that has changed

and made it more difficult now than then

two things I actually think there is

simultaneously us collectively

expressing more concern about boys and young men

I feel like there's also increasing intolerance

for boys and young men

when they say and do stupid things especially uh sexism

misogyny racism

and to be clear I am anti all of those things

I I don't support sexism

I don't support misogyny

I don't support misandry I don't support uh racism

however young boys say and do stupid things

that is part of the learning process

part of the growing process

so I feel like the

they feel like they are under a microscope

all of the time because they are

when everybody has a phone

and can put up anything at any moment

there's that and then there is the social media

online world as it exists today

where a boy today he's going to be online

whether you let him or not

he is going to be online

and because of the way the algorithms is built

whether he goes looking at it or not

he will be exposed to extreme thoughts

Allah Andrew Tate and I'm using the term manosphere

because a lot of people know

kind of what we mean by that

but I don't necessarily think that term is helpful

because a lot gets lumped into that

but extreme views and um

very unhelpful body image and expectations

and gambling content

all of this stuff is being fed to our boys

and that's why I think

parenting boys now is even harder

like there is all of

the external world

is literally reaching into their bedrooms and minds

all of the time

yeah you have access to

a lot more opinions and a lot more

potentially false data than I I had when I was a kid

right

information diet was a lot more curated

and so now it's a lot less curated

which is nice because you have access to things that

you know there wasn't there's not a gatekeeper

but it also means that you have to be that much more

vigilant about what you're putting into your mind

and at a point

at a time when you're really susceptible to

um to

unhelpful ways of thinking

that are not gonna serve you long term

because you are at a point in time

when you are actively searching for ideas

and testing out ideas and identity

and developmentally appropriately

you know

trying to differentiate yourself from your parents

and testing you know

maybe their value system is not my value system

and that's healthy to a point

but but then

then we're also in a situation where everything

goes on your permanent record

so you try on some marginally unhelpful point of view

like you know

some kind of you know

a a

I like like

something that would come across as misogynist

to some people but not to other people right

it's it you know

and and it used to be the case when I was in college

that you might try something like that on

and this the culture would gently push back on you

and now it feels like okay no

you're pushing the edge of the herd

like the one tiny little misstep and it's you're

you're sort of done for

and so then that creates this I mean

it

it creates this situation where you either have to be

hyper conformist to everything

you have to sort of predict

what people might get offended about right

you know because offense is in the eye of the beholder

in that respect

or you can go the other way and just be okay

well I'm gonna

right

that's not healthy

nope

I feel like mothers have a particular

role in helping our boys temper

their role and

and

you know I

I think that I think that's where

that's where mothers come in

is helping our boys try things out in a way that is

protected

and and and

and the the venues that they can do that are shrinking

right I mean it's

you know it's

since if you're always on

if everything you do is recorded

then you can't

that then that

you don't really have freedom

and personally I think that pressure is

contributing to why a lot of boys

and young men

aren't doing much of anything right

it is easier to stay still and not take risks

and just stay in my room and play video games

than to do something that could get me in trouble

nope I'm opting out of all of that

yeah I

so do you think that that's

and do you see that that's what's happening

I have a theory that that's what's happening yes

I don't have you know

swaths of data necessarily to prove it

but I think those correlations are there right

like

we are seeing increasing numbers of boys and young men

who are out of education out of work

you know

who are really being pretty static in their lives

which isn't healthy for them

and it is not healthy for our communities

right yeah I

one of the things I I like to say is that our

our culture thirsts for healthy men

and we're it seems

it seems

empirically true that we're creating fewer of them and

but we're not really

investing in the things that build healthy men and

and I'm not just talking about money

certainly money is part of it because resources but

but time and space and and freedom

like we are not

we're not building the things that help boys become

healthy men

yeah let me

let me restate that

in a way that I can definitely agree with

which is that

the institutions that used to do that for us are gone

are are crumbling

and so it is up to us to do it ourselves now

and we're not necessarily going to do that

unless we're intentional about it

and this is where moms especially

and dads also right

we are feeling all of this pressure

we are feeling this pressure to raise good men

and absolutely it is part of our responsibility

it's a lot

it's a lot to do on our own

so I feel like the society

at large is kind of looking at parents like

raise a good man

but sort of keeping their hands off

and also judging parents as they are

also doing their best to function in the society

without enough accurate information or support

and that's a frustrating position for parents to be in

and I think that that is part of why parents

and especially parents of boys

feel this this tension in this stress

they feel this expectation

I think parents of boys

at least the moms that I speak to

and I'll let you tell me what you hear from the dads

are very aware of this acute pressure

to raise a good man and

just as the boys feel like that microscope is on them

if they do a misstep

the moms feel that is on them too

that if my son does this thing

eyes are looking back at me

well why didn't you do better

you know I

I I

I absolutely see that and I think that there's a

there's a dad's version of that too um

and it has a lot less to do

with conforming to social norms

in my experience it has a lot less to do with that

than it is about performing well

like being good at sports or

or or doing well at school work and

and those sorts of things

sure

succeeding on the basketball court

then I have done something wrong as a dad

um so I

I don't know if that's a generalized experience

or if that's just mine um

but that's definitely there

do you

I think the I

I think one of the other things that makes it really

really difficult

and I love your feedback on this for one for

for moms today is that their

for the reasons that we've discussed

there are fewer and fewer

really good masculine

role models

and it is impossible for a mother

to be a masculine role model

um I mean

certainly mothers can have

uh

you you know

can exhibit masculine virtues

but your son is not going to see that for

as a model for himself he needs that difference

he needs to see a man doing stuff he admires

so that he can emulate that

and those men are becoming fewer and farther between

and so what is a mom to do if

you know

often times so so in a lot of families

you have a mother and a father

and the father can be that good

masculine male role model

okay great

we've got one

but you know we might need more and and

and in a lot of cases these days you have

mom's raising sons without a father

or without a father in the home

and so

she needs to seek out other masculine male role models

what what do you

you know how

and then obviously

there's risks on the other side of that right

you know um

you you might be suspicious of somebody that's taking

an interest in your young boy reasonably

how do you navigate that minefield in your opinion

I don't have any easy answers to that

because there are no easy answers to that

you're absolutely right I mean

a lot of the

previous institutions that existed to do that

don't exist in the same form anymore

you know we know broadly speaking

like there there's less community clubs

and just less community gatherings

there's fewer mentoring programs

all of those things are true

and the question for moms

that are looking for other adults to be interested in

and care about their sons

I hear from those moms all the time

and you give you give the standard answers

and it feels incomplete

because you know that the world's not ideal

so yes

there's the obvious places ideally

ideally hopefully

perhaps you have extended family

you know uncles or older cousins

and

it doesn't necessarily have to be people that you are

biologically related to aunts uncles

cousins um

can also be people in your neighborhood

in your church in your community

other people that see and spend time with your child

but getting somebody to actually take an

interest in your child to spend time with your child

that can be really hard um

as you said there are fewer male teachers now

than there were when we were in school

and especially in those early elementary stages

um this is

one thing I wanna

I wanna touch on is this suspicion that is there right

we and especially moms

do tend to be suspicious of men

who show an interest in our boys

and there are reasons for that

there have been horrible stories of abuse and grooming

and we are all acutely aware of those

and our first priority as parents

is to protect our children

so be aware of that but I think

deliberately

interrogate that inclination within yourself

I feel like there is this um

the first reaction is suspicion instead of appreciation

the first reaction is

if there is a guy who shows interest in my child

that it is automatically a bad thing

and it isn't necessarily

you have to do your due diligence

but don't assume the worst without reason

I think it is is thing 1

I wanna say question your own biases

your own prejudices second of all

a man does not have to be a perfect man to be a good

healthy masculine influence for your son

and I ran across a beautiful essay about this

a few years ago and um

I would have to dig really hard to find it again

but it was written by an adult man

but he was talking about some of the men

who helped raise him and one was like

uh somebody in his community

and the guy had a lot of issues

he was a drunk he was

you know these things

but he made time and he spent time

and he listened to this boy when he was a teenager

what I mean is

a man does not have to check all of the perfect guy

2026 boxes to be a good influence for your son yep

he can swear yes

he may have

he may even have some values that you don't like

he may occasionally say derogatory things about people

that doesn't mean he can't be a good influence

in other ways

my best advice to parents who are

looking for masculine influence for your boy

whatever your boy is interested in

whatever your boy is interested in

try to go places where other people are interested in

those things for my oldest son

one of those things was fishing right

and when he was about 10 I think um

and he specifically loves muskies

the muskellunge is like the state fish of Wisconsin

it is a big fish it's like a huge northern pike

very similar there was a Musky Expo

trade show that was going on in Milwaukee

about an hour from our home

he wanted to go to that

Sean I don't like fishing

that's not my thing at all

but you know it's my kid

we went to that together

this 10 year old boy was in heaven

and so were the predominantly adult men

who saw in this boy somebody that was interested in

what they weren't interested in

and so even though none of those men became

like regular influences in his life

in that day he saw and met people

many people doing different things

that kind of showed him what could be possible

and they importantly showed an interest in him

and I think you can speak to that as a former boy

and as a father

when an adult man kind of sees and affirms your spark

that's powerful isn't it

it is the most powerful thing

and I think you know

I'll call out something you

you you made reference to this

but you didn't drive it home as hard as I

I think it deserves

which is this thing about

you don't have to be the perfect man to be a good um

to be a good role model that's absolutely right

and not only that your

your imperfections are also instructive

yes

yeah and and so like this

the boy gets to see that the boy gets to see an actual

real life man in real circumstances

deal with real things

and succeed or fail on his own merits

and the more examples of that you see

the more well rounded you could be as a boy

if you don't see that in real live men

you're going to look for proxies

you're going to look for TV shows

you're going to look for online

influencer personalities and those are curated feeds

they are not healthy ways of getting those skills

they're

they're performatives they're

they're performances and they're better than nothing

I guess sometimes

but the real thing is the real thing it is and

and getting that rich experience is

you know the

that's where the gold is and if you're

if you're searching for perfection

you're letting the the perfect be the enemy of the good

and you end up with nothing

I really appreciate you elaborating on that

you're right the imperfection is so

so important none of us are done

we're all still dealing with our stuff

so for a boy to see a human

adult male living with his imperfection and

and how the world responds to him

positively or negatively

really really helpful

and broadly speaking the more men

the more people in your son's life

the better

because he doesn't just need a masculine role model

he doesn't just need to see men

he needs to see a variety of men

because

there are so many different

and beautiful ways of being a man in the world

and it gives him that opportunity to

to realize there's no one right way

which I think

is one of the lies that the internet is kind of

selling our boys right now

like this is the way to be a man

right yeah

and then you'll see another one oh

this is the way and this is the way

and this is the way and there's a

there's a thousand the ways

and you know

but yeah I

I the

those are kind of yeah

the internet is kind of a grift

a grift mill right

and it and

you know there's

you you can get rich making the world worse

and given that that is our world

that is a conversation that we all have to have

with our sons these days

it was really wish I'd studied harder for this one Sean

that we we

but we have to recognize the world the

the the way it is

not the way it ought to be and

and we have to deal with the culture the way it is

and the world the way it is

the internet the way it is

and the social media the way it is

yeah you know

I well

and you you know

from the last time you were here

I always like to finish these conversations

by asking more or less the same question of everybody

and so I'm gonna put you on the spot for a second time

what is one principle that you think

that comes to mind when I ask you

whatever parent listening

should think about when trying to raise excellent men

I should have known you were gonna ask this again

you should have known last time

he asked me for this thing

but you can take your time and it is not a timed exam

connect with the boy in front of you

and what I mean by that is

look at him and respond to him

and his needs and his interest in the moment

and I think that is foundational

because that is the thing that you can carry

from his infancy all the way through to his adulthood

because even though it's the same human

he will change

yeah

and so yes

you can and and I will say should

listen to podcast and read books

and learn more about what our boys are experiencing

and learn about their development

cause building that knowledge

will help you be able to effectively respond

but your absolute best guide

for raising a good man is to look at

and respond to that boy in front of you

I love that

well the book is called Building Boys

Raising Great Guys in a world That Misunderstands Male

I I really recommend it wholeheartedly

I uh

to be candid I haven't read the whole thing

I haven't quite finished it yet

but I have uh

read a large portion of it and it is really

really really good

Jennifer L W

Fink

thank you so much for joining us again on Raising Men

I really appreciate it

thanks so much Shawn

and to everybody who's listening uh

the links to all of Jennifer's uh

her podcast and the book and all of those things

they're in the show notes

please check them out um

she's absolutely fantastic as you can see

and uh it

it'll give you the tools to communicate better

and connect better with your boys

and as always thank you for listening to raising men

thank you for like liking sharing

subscribing and uh

and and sharing us with your friends

it is uh

it is really an honor to serve you in this way

and remember that you are a great parent

raising men is produced by Phil Hernandez

this episode was edited by Ralph Tolentino