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A growing community of educators, mentors, and lifelong learners who believe in the power of connection, shared stories, and showing up for one another - again and again
Cate: So welcome to the Bridge I have a
happy little group of friends here today.
I like that a lot.
It's wonderful to welcome, these three
wonderful humans, who have a story to
tell and a connected story at that.
And I'll start with Toutoule
and then maybe Toutoule you can
introduce Amarpal and Nick because
our story is one that I think
I wanna tell and how we
got to know each other.
So maybe just introduce yourself.
Your bio will be in the notes,
but anything you just wanna share?
Toutoule: Yeah.
Hey, everybody, my name is, Dr.
Toutoule Ntoya.
And, I wear a lot of different hats.
Now I'm in this weird space
and in my career and I'm
doing some work with Nick, Dr.
Neeral Satyal.
Dr.
Amarpal Kanna, the three
of us got together,
working at a charter school and Nick
and I were working at the school and
then Am would come over as a music
teacher and somehow we just, I don't
know, Nick and Am I think you guys were
connected and somehow we became friends.
I don't know what the
connection, I never knew what the
connection is between y'all two.
Was it just the ICEF thing?
Amarpal: The ICEF Thing.
Yeah.
Nick: Yeah.
Cate: What's that thing?
What is it?
Toutoule: Oh, ICEF is, it's a charter
management organization here in LA.
Cate: Okay.
Toutoule: They're primarily in South LA.
We were at one of their schools.
They had a flagship school, and
then they opened some subsequent
campuses, which Nick and I were at, I
think Am, you were at the OG campus.
Amarpal: Yeah.
so Toutoule if I were to back up
a little bit, he's, yeah, he's
underselling it a little bit.
Just a tad.
Cate: I love it.
Amarpal: ICEF Public Schools stands
for, Inner City Education Foundation.
I know that the name, the nomenclature
is a little, dated in that, but it
was one of the first, CMOs, before the
terminology CMO was even in large use.
Yeah.
it was initially just a fledgling
charter school, in Los Angeles.
So saying that in the context
that Los Angeles is the second
largest city in the country.
That's not a small thing.
To note.
were there other things happening?
Were there other programs?
Absolutely.
but you could say, ICEF Public
Schools was certainly in the zeitgeist
and in the moment, of the, late
nineties, early two thousands of
Cate: Okay.
Amarpal: being at the
forefront of that push.
Cate: Yep.
Amarpal: Messaging what the
charter movement was at that time.
Cate: Yep.
Amarpal: To the best knowledge of all
players involved, including communities,
educators, admins, et cetera.
and a lot of the stuff around, like
the flavor of a more liberal capital
regime and how it fit into that.
That conversation in terms of the critical
aspect of it, hadn't necessarily been
brought out into the consciousness as yet.
Cate: Okay.
Amarpal: So we were true believers.
I think everybody at that moment
in time, in those early days,
Cate: yeah.
Amarpal: We were, all true believers
in the power of the community
being involved in education.
Cate: Yep.
Amarpal: Of parents being involved in
education, especially in communities
that historically have been marginalized
or set aside from being involved.
So that's like where we were.
We were in that bubble.
On the bubble of the movement as well.
Cate: That's amazing.
I, don't know Toutoule if I've ever
shared this with you, but I, started my
career in New York City at a continuation
high school and then my second year
I moved to LA and I worked at Stella
Middle Charter Academy, which there,
right there Bright Star schools.
Yeah.
So I was there from 2003 to 2008.
And that was my heart.
It was everything.
It would talk about, like everything
you said Amarpal, about like the
community and finally giving resources
to community members and families.
And yeah, I lived it.
I'm gonna get all teared up 'cause it
was a great description and I'm glad to
have been a part of it on some level too.
'cause it was pretty incredible.
Toutoule: That's amazing.
So we were, you were doing
the charter thing when
Cate: Oh yeah.
Toutoule: In, the, right
there and, looking back
Cate: mid city LA
Amarpal: Wow.
Toutoule: Looking back at that time.
Cate: Yeah.
Toutoule: and you said, it so eloquently.
But we
were like in a movement.
We didn't realize it.
We were just like, yeah,
Gonna work every day working.
Cate: We were doing
what was right by our souls, Yeah.
And the next thing you
knew, go ahead, Nick.
Nick: it was a time when the school
reform movement had really gotten
to the surface, gotten to the top
of the surface there where we were
like, Hey, schools are overcrowded.
We were starting to realize like
the community, like the neighborhood
schools were not serving kids at best
at the way it was at was structured.
We were at a time where schools were the
answer was just building more schools.
Building more schools, A,
let's figure out tracking.
And those are like all fine
and good, but it wasn't enough.
So then the charter school started
emerging to really provide like this
opportunity to like have a conversation a.
to give kids a better outcome.
Cate: Yeah.
Nick: And, then b.
It started to create a
conversation around Hey, how do
we actually best service students?
It's so interestingnow.
That was back 2003, 2008, right?
Late nineties.
Now we're in 2025, and the conversation's
completely different because at
Los Angeles, because with all the
other forces around, Toutoule and
you both alluded to capitalism here.
Yeah.
Where we're talking about hey, market
forces, like we have less, less
working families that are here now.
We have less students that are here now.
It's about What school, where, what
parent, if you're a parent, where's
the best space for your kids?
And now we're like having this whole
different conversation around that.
And wondering if even we have even the
space to have all of these schools.
So it's interesting just to
see how all this evolved.
Cate: Yeah.
Nick: It's been interesting with you two
gentlemen, like just going through this,
journey around things because Amarpal
is now in the community college system.
Toutoule's kind of in multiple spaces.
I'm helping some schools keep,
and Toutoule's helping me do
this too, keep some schools, keep
the lights on in some schools
Cate: Okay.
Nick: The lights on for some schools
through, through helping math outcomes.
So we're doing a lot of different
things as a result of this.
Cate: Yep.
Amarpal: Nick, I believe you're
an entrepreneur, the correct term.
Cate: I just, I think so.
Nick: I'm just trying
to help kids learn math.
Said what I've been trying
to do for the last 20 years.
Amarpal: Yeah.
the, other piece too is looking
holistically at all the options
that were available at the time
in that context with LA being the
second largest city in the country.
And I could speak to
my personal experience.
I graduated from an LAUSD high school.
And LAUSD high schools.
I graduated and then was fortunate
enough to be able to go on to college.
I went to, a smallish liberal arts
college, fine arts college, and my fine
arts college had less students at the time
than the population of my high school.
The population of my high
school was, a typical urban,
large consolidated high school.
I wanna say there was 5,000
students there, something like that.
It was insane.
And with the kind of, we talk
about market forces and different
players coming into the space.
Some of the reforms and changes we see
now because of the charter movement, we
see these large consolidated schools now
broken up into small learning academies.
Cate: Yep.
Amarpal: That are housed on the
formerly large single campus.
That are specialized in, entrepreneurship
or right, global studies, science
and art, and those four little
academies are in one large campus.
some of those things,
competition breeds, innovation.
Cate: Innovation, yeah.
Amarpal: That is some of the, good
things that did come out of it as it
affected, traditional public education.
Cate: I agree.
Yeah.
And I know that I've been dialed in, over
the last seven, eight years just, watching
and now participating in the CTE movement.
And so I'm curious, like so much of
what you described Amarpal is makes
me think of all of the opportunities
that have come through career technical
education through dual enrollment.
Like by taking the system and shaking
it up and going, what if we did it just
a little bit better to get a bigger
bang for our buck for our students?
And that's, I'm interested to hear, Nick,
from your perspective and Toutoule from
your community perspective and then from
the community college perspective, is that
like what has CTE done to your worlds?
And then together, how did,
how do you think we got here
Toutoule: that's for Nick and
Am, 'cause Am is neck deep in CTE
Cate: Uhhuh.
Okay.
Toutoule: Okay.
I was involved in CTI helped start a
few campuses, start their CTE program.
And to just, and LA Unified.
They've been all in on CTE.
They've, they had a whole grant fund.
They got this huge funding and what
it's done to schools and the resources
that it's given to schools and the
schools that I was working with.
They would've never had access to
these, these high end pieces of
machines, but then also teachers to
leverage those machines to give kids
an authentic learning experience.
Seeing that rollout and seeing how
much passion there is statewide.
The appetite statewide to develop
these CTE programs has, been,
really interesting to see.
But then also, I always wonder,
what do these CTE programs look like
schools for our, black and brown kids?
Are they getting the same kind of
opportunities to get into these programs?
Yep.
Are they able to pipeline, to the
community colleges where Am is working
and get these high end experiences?
And how do we make sure that these
programs can really hit those students.
So they have this opportunity, to be in
these programs, 'cause they're fantastic.
Yeah.
I love CTE programs and, the
possibilities that they have.
Cate: Yeah.
Nick: And just piggybacking on that,
it's back to thinking about the kind
of the school reform movement again.
It's like this idea of it's come
around for full circle because when
we were entering, the school spaces,
it was all about college readiness.
College readiness, And now we're
actually evolving into that space.
Around.
And it's interesting how, even how the
real estate of charter schools and
like new schools were built because they
stopped doing like shop rooms and they
stopped, doing the auto room or what have,
Cate: right.
Nick: The, auto garage and what have you.
And now we're coming full circle and
saying, Hey wait, not every student
may want to necessarily go to college.
And it, and there might, we need
to provide 'em space to yeah.
To be the person they wanna be
and the citizen they wanna be.
And that's, where CTE really
is valued and highly important.
So it's interesting to see how the
whole thing has come full circle now.
Am, you have a better insight
because you get, 'em at the next
step now with with once they graduate
from high school and come to you.
Amarpal: Absolutely.
Cate mentioned two things that
are, you could consider 'em as
two initiatives of the same coin.
Which is dual enrollment and CTE, both
are designed and set up to be relevant.
To the workforce, but also in terms of
moving students through the programs,
getting, maybe unnecessary, classes.
There's a lot of prerequisites
once they get to the college level,
removing, setting the students up
for as much success as possible.
and especially where CTE comes into play.
my wheelhouse is visual media art.
So I am a visual artist by trade.
I used to work in the animation industry,
illustration, graphic design, sequential
art, and then my pathway into education
was the cusp of that charter movement.
Cate: Mhm
Amarpal: I started in K 12,
then moved into higher ed.
and so it's interesting where I'm
at right now at LACC, we have dual
enrollment programs that are super robust.
We have dozens, I think two
dozen, high school partners.
And we both do dual
enrollment and CTE programs.
Now they're aligned with
what the college offers.
So the school and visual media
arts, for instance, like we have
photography and graphic design and
illustration and eSports and game
arts and design, and animation.
In terms of certificates
and degrees that we offer.
And so there's a request, Nick had
mentioned there's no more auto shop.
Cate: Yeah.
Amarpal: That there's no more of
these kind of, professional level,
blue collar, hands-on types of jobs.
So those things have been replaced
by the digital, I don't wanna
say the digital equivalent of
that but the digital skill sets.
So our students, if we're
talking practical, are they
learning Adobe Illustrator?
Are they learning Adobe Photoshop?
if they wanna go into the animation
industry, what apps and programs are
relevant to that field if they wanna
learn photography, so those same
things, those particular disciplines.
So we introduce, the foundation level
of those courses for dual enrollment.
Combined with the CTE requirements.
So students are getting those skill sets.
Now, here's something interesting.
we've done both dual enrollment
that is out at a school site.
We send an instructor there.
They work on site.
Sometimes those campuses have CTE
grants already in play, so they
might have full computer labs.
Sometimes they don't, sometimes
they just have Chromebooks.
but here's the interesting thing.
We also have CTE dual enrollment
on site, on campus over the summer,
and what I found is that students
who enroll in those classes, A,
they're super highly motivated.
B, the idea of the pathway and those
offerings is oh, they're gonna use it.
And then they fast track into a community
college, maybe not even necessarily
LACC, get the AA and then transfer out.
The kids who are really savvy.
They're taking those classes
and a lot of them, they skip
the community college part.
They use it to front load, to jump
right into a four year university,
Cate: but two years in.
Amarpal: Yeah.
Cate: Wow.
Amarpal: But because a lot
of the rules and regulations
around that have been loosened.
Cate: Uhhuh.
Amarpal: but the other thing is we're
finding is that they're super tech savvy.
They may already, because
they're digital natives, right?
So they may not know the terminology
or the vocabulary, the technical
pieces of, okay, here's how
you do something in Photoshop.
But they're using an off-brand
app on their phone already
doing some of those things.
They just don't know what the
professional application of that is.
Cate: Yeah.
Amarpal: So they're really way
advanced and I have, there's
less heavy lifting to do.
At the front end, they come
in as true digital natives.
We don't have to do any
technical instruction.
here's the app, here's the
tool set, here's what you do.
They just dive in.
Whereas the older students, the
more experienced students, I'm
talking, you wanna say older?
I'm saying 18 and up.
Cate: Yeah.
Yeah.
Amarpal: That, that come to us.
Okay.
What do I do now?
Let me work through the first two modules.
Let me watch the video.
Am I doing it right?
17 and below.
Boom, they're there.
Cate: Yeah.
Amarpal: So it's really
interesting to see that dichotomy.
Cate: Yep.
Amarpal: Because essentially, and let's
be clear, their 21st century students.
Cate: Yeah.
Amarpal: They're 21st century learners.
They were born in the 21st
century, and they are like, oh.
You're from the 20th century.
Yeah.
You're from the 19 hundreds.
So education as a system, just to
extrapolate out and get back to,
talking about general academics.
Cate: Sure.
Amarpal: As a system, the system
has not caught up to 21st century
students who are from the 21st century.
It's still stuck in the 20th, it's
still stuck in the 19 hundreds.
Cate: Yeah.
Amarpal: So that's another big problem.
And I'm seeing it just because of the tech
aspect of these instructional disciplines.
we're really on the front end, Moore's
laws that tech, evolves every six months.
Now it's sped up, it's probably
every two months cycle.
Especially, another topic.
Generative ai.
Cate: Yeah, right
Amarpal: General AI and
how that's impacting.
But, CTE dual enrollment is amazing.
It's great.
it's helping the students go
through, but at the same time, I
don't know that we're moving fast
enough to keep up with the students..
Cate: Oh my gosh.
No.
And honestly, no, I think
that's a really good point.
And it makes me think of too, Toutoule
how you were talking about, are we doing,
are, is all this innovation happening?
And including all learners,
like truly all learners.
And especially like with our story,
with your story going back 20
years to the upheaval of school
design to now, what have you all
seen as far as what's working?
if like we can sit in a space of challenge
or we can sit in a space of opportunity.
And so when we are looking at this,
what do you think is working that
you would say, let's double down for
our black and our brown students.
Let's double down here.
What would you say we could start with?
Toutoule: I have to, if I had to say
anything, I would say first is access.
And what does access look like?
I'm just thinking about the
schools that we're just at today.
Cate: Yeah.
Toutoule: Nick, that middle school,
99% African American, and then
they go on to the high school,
which is also 99% African American.
And what access do they have
to some of this new technology?
'cause computer labs are obsolete, right?
Now it's the, one-to-one Chromebooks,
right around one, one-to-one, computers,
laptops, those are becoming obsolete.
Yeah.
what is the access point
for the technology?
Not just sitting a student
in front of a computer and
saying, press the button and go.
But what access do we have?
do they have to create?
So that's my first thinking, how do
we get more of that type of access
Cate: Yeah.
Toutoule: Into our schools.
So Am was saying, these kids
are doing all this cool stuff.
Cate: Yeah.
Toutoule: On their phone
without any guidance.
Now how do we come along as
the instructors, the experts in
the field, offer that guidance
to them and us move together.
I think that's, the big part.
I was thinking when Am was talking,
us moving together with students and
teachers or everyone into this new space.
Because it's happening.
I think even us who are, in
the tech space, we're still
having a hard time keeping up.
Cate: Yeah.
Toutoule: So like, how do we keep up
together so we can all figure this out?
Access and give kids opportunities to
get into these next generation fields.
Because, we're all afraid of AI, but AI
is gonna create brand new industries.
Cate: Yeah.
Toutoule: So where do our kids
start to plug in now so they're
ready for those industries?
Cate: Yeah.
Nick: I'll piggyback on that
because I do think this idea
around access is really important.
It's like also just like
this base of just like.
How do we do that in a
smart, thoughtful way?
And how do we actually are able to
do this at some degree of scale?
Like, it was like, thinking about like
the tutoring, thinking about tutoring.
yes, we all know tutoring helps kids.
But it's also like, how do you
actually make it work for each school?
How, and it's like it's, and
I'm using tutoring as like
an avatar for other things.
Like how do you bring in community
members to come in to do, art and
theater and dance and what have you.
Especially when you have limited real
estate, how do you actually provide,
how do you actually, okay, we have
AI We have an ELA class, how do we
provide the training for that access?
So it's like here, we're in a space
where we know the things, but it's
like how are we smart and adaptive
enough to get it into a school
to make it work for the students.
And I do think we've gotten smarter
in a lot of ways in doing that.
But as the things are continuing to
come in, we're always having to think
about this and squint and figure it out.
Cate: Yeah
Nick: like the mental health
initiatives have been really important.
if you think about that, like we all
know, yes, students probably need
more support around mental health.
We've known this for 50, 60 years, right?
And now we think it's important,
like how does that work?
How does that work with each
school and each community?
So I think it's like thinking
about that access and like
thinking about like how we actually
implement that in an effective way.
Cate: Yeah.
And in a sustainable way because
we know the money isn't reliable.
The money comes and goes.
And yes, who could argue that mental
health is not one of, is not the top need
of our students, and yet at what loss?
Like what are we losing to get there?
And from my perspective being in ed
tech, the assumptions are made left
and right by school boards and school
leaders and organizations that the
teachers can do it on their own now.
And I get it.
I think it's all coming from
a nice, positive place, but
that is not the case, right?
This is not the time to get rid of
your ed tech support and, no I know.
My heart bleeds from the like tutu
and I spent a year working with these
40 educators across the state to get
them ed tech, to become California
state certified ed tech specialists.
And most are back in the classroom
or not in education at all.
And it's, and that was four years ago.
It wasn't a long time ago.
Nick: I actually have to sign off, but
Cate: Oh yeah.
Nick is gonna go do back to
school night, so thank you.
Nick: No, my pleasure.
Thank you for having me.
Cate: You got it.
Nick: Take it easy.
Cate: Continue forward.
Thanks, Nick.
Nick: Thank you.
Cate: Oh, what were you gonna say
Amarpal: Oh, so looking
over your prompt also,
Cate: Yeah.
Amarpal: That in terms
of talking about tier one
Cate: Yes.
Amarpal: One instruction;
and it's part of it.
But this is an approach, that's
folded into and sits alongside
all these other things.
We know EdTech isn't the magic bullet.
Tier one education as a
framework has its issues.
And, one of the main things,
I was watching, a video.
There's a, I guess education influencer,
Casey Watts and was, talking about, one
of the problems, in tier one education.
One of the main things is whether
it's tier one education or whatever
you can, put in, fill in the blank.
I think teachers chronically
feel that they don't have enough
knowledge in these new systems.
Cate: Yeah.
Amarpal: And the schools aren't, or the
systems aren't necessarily providing them
with enough professional development.
And then once they get it, discussing
with your colleagues, collaborating with
the people, your peers, that you're gonna
be implementing this thing, whether it's
tier one education or ed tech or anything.
So it's like the shortage of time.
To really plan and do the thing.
I came, I had an interesting
phenomenon, so myself, I'm an LMU grad.
Plug.
Plug,
Cate: Plug.
Plug.
LMU.
Yeah.
My husband went there.
My dad, my brothers and sisters.
Yep.
Amarpal: Yes.
Both Nick and I, education
leadership for social justice.
Cate: Nice.
Amarpal: and, Toutoule's program
is excellent as well over at SC.
Cate: Yep.
Amarpal: but there was a moment in
researching and pulling together all
the things for my dissertation, and
it seemed like magically all the stuff
I was pulling together, there was all
these solutions in these journal articles
written by people much smarter than I am.
And I was like, and I'm also working in
education at the same time, and I didn't
see, it's oh, here's all the answers.
And there's really great people in the
classroom and administrators, and they
didn't have access to these answers.
Cate: What's wrong here?
Amarpal: And it's there's
a lot of research, there's
a lot of stuff out there.
It's just, maybe it's, the perception
like, oh, that's academia, that's
education, research, it's theory.
What application does it have?
But I was able to take a lot
of that and implement it.
But I think there's also, there's a,
when we talk about knowledge gap, I
think there's a knowledge gap of, from
your everyday, person in the classroom,
administrator at a school site and
some of them have gone through their
own dissertation programs, but then
taking what is known and applying it.
Cate: Yeah.
Amarpal: and implementing it, and
then also making it consistent
and as you pointed out, Cate.
Sustainable.
So I think there's these, there's
pieces, if we think of a train
track, there's pieces, but then
there's pieces of the track that
it's not all connected together.
So I think that's another big thing
where they're talking about tier
one education or, another thing.
Cate: Yeah, what you just
shared makes me wonder.
Toutoule, you have spent a lot of
time in maker education, and one of
the things I admire about you is your
ability to make everybody who you
are with feel like they're capable.
They're capable of creating.
And I, think that's a gift that you
give the educators you work with.
I admire you so much for that.
And so where did that come from and
how does it go full circle for you
when you think about your close friends
that you've stayed connected with?
It's not just 'cause you guys
worked together 20 years ago, right?
there's a reason why you're in
each other's lives and why they
all, why you all came on today.
Toutoule: They invite
me out to drink beers.
I can't say no to that.
Just beer.
Can't say no.
We have beer summits
Cate: Now, I know.
Toutoule: No, it's, I'm a science person
at heart and, in order to be a scientist,
you're always testing out new things.
And anything is possible.
Just put your mind to it.
And you can make it happen.
And when I was in the classroom.
That was what I would always
want to, instill in my students
that anything is possible.
You can do whatever it is you wanna do.
And now that I work with teachers and
consult teachers, it's just amazing when
you're able to just break things down.
Did the kid, you're excited,
the kid just wrote his first
piece of something on a paper?
That's great.
Let's celebrate that.
And this whole journey, you, find
yourself connecting with people who
have a similar ideology and belief
in others', belief in our students.
I think that's where the
camaraderie comes together.
and, I just like being around good
people and I'm always enamored by
people's stories and, being able to
just be around good, smart people.
Yeah.
And we, Nick, Am and I, every
time till today when we come
together, we're always talking about
these big problems in education.
What is it gonna take for us to solve it?
What is it gonna take for
the problems to be solved?
And that all the three of us, we
have this level of, professional
curiosity and that pushes us to
do the things that we're doing.
And it, there's no, Am, he's not
gonna toot his own horn, but he's
gonna be Dean over there at LACC.
That it?
Cate: Congratulations.
Amarpal: No no
Toutoule: There's, no secret
to why it's gonna happen.
there's no secret to
why that's gonna happen.
Nick just started his tutoring company
where he's working in spaces and all
these people are coming in and they're
signing up to do his tutoring program.
There's no reason, there's no
guessing how that happened.
It's all because we have this
level of professional curiosity
and we go after those things.
and I think that is how we all get
connected together and we all, we
are constantly pushing each other
to be the best that we could be.
Cate: Love it.
I love it.
Toutoule: That's what we do.
That's what we do all here.
Cate.
Cate: I know, but you also, you exude it.
Like you can't be, I can't be in a room
with you and not be smiling, ready to
try something and, doubling down on that
safe space and, professional curiosity.
Like again, thinking about, the
educators that are in classrooms
right now that maybe haven't been
there that long, or maybe they have.
How often do they get a chance
to just pause and wonder?
Just,
pause and wonder.
Ask why?
lean into that.
It's like we're all moving,
we're on this hamster wheel.
go, And the nature of classrooms is
that we just stop and then we start
the next, and we go to, and I, admire
that about the relationship you guys
all have, which is that you have this
outlet and not everybody does, but that
doesn't mean they can't create it or
make something that looks right to them
just by wondering and being curious.
I love that.
Amarpal: Yeah.
I think also to add to that thanks
Toutoule and that, that was really
insightful and very generous.
I appreciate that.
Thank you so much.
Toutoule has been, both Toutoule and
Nick for me have been sounding boards.
Have been,
a safe space.
You mentioned safe space.
You could share the dream
no matter how audacious.
And you're not gonna
get a negative answer.
You're gonna be like, that's great.
Do it.
Go for it.
And then also because of where we
both, where we all started, Each
level, like the level up has been,
like we, are able to bounce
off each other energy.
We're able to bounce off each other.
Oh, you're doing that?
Okay, you go home.
I need to think about doing that.
Cate: Aha.
Amarpal: Lemme figure out.
And it might not be the same thing.
Cate: Yeah.
Amarpal: But it's okay, we are
pushing each other as comrades, as
peers, as colleagues, as friends.
to our greater potential.
Cate: Yeah.
Amarpal: Because it's one of those things
where I mentioned before, like when we
started in education there, there was very
much the thing of we were true believers.
And to clarify that it's not so much
that we're true believers in the charter
movement per se or, any given system, but
true believers in the transformative power
Cate: Yeah.
Amarpal: Of education in students'
lives, no matter what the discipline
area was, whether it's, the
arts or ELA or math or sciences.
Cate: Mhmm
Amarpal: that there's a true power there.
And then a recognition of maybe
there's something, some little spark,
something that we could bring to
the table to help facilitate that.
Cate: Yeah.
Amarpal: And then with
all of that, it's okay.
There, there's, other people that
feel that way, like that, the
dream of the idea of education.
Forget the systems part of it, right?
Because I think we've all been
through whatever systems and we
understand that systems are manmade
and they can be broken, right?
But education is a
universal constant, right?
There's no constant but change,
How do we roll with that?
How do we get that to students?
Like my personal journey, one of the
questions I, saw was, what's our story?
Why, I think it was like,
why did we stick with it?
Or what did we bring to the
table, through our personal story.
I personally went to eight
different schools in my K12 career.
Wow.
Not because my, folks were in the
military or anything like that, but they
were, both immigrants to the country.
So they had no, inherent privileges
. There was no, money sitting around.
There was no hedge funds involved.
There were no businesses to inherit.
There wasn't any of those kinds of things.
My father, English was his, third language
behind Punjabi and Hindi and German.
Cate: Wow.
Amarpal: Actually, English was his fourth
language, so he started over, like in
this country, in his late thirties.
Cate: Wow
Amarpal: So imagine starting
over from scratch with nothing.
You're learning a new
system in a new society.
My mom was a little different.
She went to Catholic school in New
York, but born of, Jamaican immigrants.
But again, it's that idea of like, how
do you make something out of nothing?
and my mom was, always a firm
believer in education, so we moved
to wherever the economy was good.
It was that simple.
Cate: Yeah.
Amarpal: So, it put it another way.
Right now there's a lot of talk
about economic migration and there's
a, lot of talk, we're in California
about outflows and inflows.
People leaving and going to states where,
they perceive there might be better
opportunities, et cetera, et cetera.
My parents literally were that
before the conversation was in the,
so I always got had the question,
why did your parents move so much?
And it was like, it's
the opportunity, right?
so in that, migration from New
York to Florida, to Texas, to here.
I went to eight different schools.
Cate: Wow.
Amarpal: So I got to see
literally eight different systems.
They were all public education.
It was all public school, but
how it was affected regionally.
Cate: Mhmm
Amarpal: What was funded, what was valued.
some schools, arts was really funded
and they had theaters and music rooms
and art rooms and studios, others.
There was dust on the instruments
'cause and the things were falling
apart, others had great computer labs,
other had, others had two computers.
So you got to see what was
valued, what was funded.
And what that meant for
the outcomes of students.
One experience I'll share,
just to leave it at that.
When I was in Texas, the counselor,
this is high school mind you,
didn't even counsel per se.
I showed up, my mom looked
at, the, schedule of classes
that I had after the week one.
She said, why are you
all in remedial classes?
And it was basically like,
oh, that's a black kid.
Put 'em all in remedial classes.
Cate: Yeah.
Amarpal: And then my mom went down.
She said, have you seen his grades?
Have you seen, and you need an advocate.
I think that's another important thing.
Yeah.
At that point in time, when you're young.
15, 16, you don't know how necessarily
know how to advocate yourself.
but then, you go to other places and
maybe the counselor has more resources
or is able to talk to, or maybe the
teacher takes interest in you, or maybe
there's wraparound services programs
that are able to push through the system.
I got, I think that affected my,
outlook of why I became an educator.
Cate: Okay.
Amarpal: Even all the
way up into higher ed.
My undergrad experience, even though it
was a quote unquote, private art school,
small classrooms, you would think that,
it would be this amazing nurturing thing.
But, there was a lot of.
What is an inherent racism and classism,
especially in the arts field of who is
and who isn't able to practice art and
participate in that professionally.
So I think all of that, affected it,
and no pun intended, but I wanted
to be a bridge between, industry,
what was happening in industry and
students who may not have access to
getting into industry and getting
this type of education in the arts.
That's been my driving motivation,
modus operandi for my whole career.
Cate: So if I can just go lean
in more, if you could go back to
Amarpal, year two, year three
in the classroom teaching.
Amarpal: Oh, wow.
Cate: What did you teach, by the way?
Amarpal: it is funny because
it was completely by accident.
Cate: Perfect.
Amarpal: I,
so senior year undergrad, there wasn't,
there was a internship class and we had
an opportunity to either reach out to a
school or a company to get an internship.
I did pick a company, but then later the
opportunity presented itself, to volunteer
at an after school in an hour a week.
I was like, yeah, I can, I could
volunteer and do arts projects
with, kindergartners and pre-K,
Cate: oh babies
Amarpal: completely free.
And it was like, it was very fulfilling.
Very,
Cate: yeah.
Amarpal: all that good
mushy feel good stuff.
Yeah.
Who doesn't like little kids.
Cate: Yeah.
Amarpal: And doing art.
And, but then the founder,
Mike Pisco was like, Hey, we're
gonna turn into a real school.
I wanna hire you.
Cate: Oh, wow.
Amarpal: You have a
college degree, don't you?
I was like, yeah, but I'm an
illustrator and I work at movie studios.
What could I possibly
know about the classroom?
he said, fine, you'll design the programs
and we'll hire qualified teachers.
So I actually learned from the
qualified teachers I was hiring
as I designed these programs.
Cate: Oh, I love this.
Amarpal: And I was teaching, I
was probably teaching above their
unquote standards grade level, but
I was like teaching things that
I thought that, elementary school
students would be interested in.
And I was designing programs like that.
Cate: So what would you go back
and tell that younger Amarpal?
Amarpal: I think at that point
you're always a little anxious.
You don't know what you don't
know, like it's gonna be okay.
And
yeah it's like hindsight's 2020.
I don't know.
I wouldn't change anything necessarily.
I don't know that I'd give, I don't know
that I'd listen to myself than me then.
He was really stubborn.
I didn't wanna, I don't know what got,
Cate: Are you not stubborn anymore?
Amarpal: My partner would disagree,
but maybe a little less stubborn.
Toutoule: I got a story.
I got a story.
My, okay.
My younger self, my fifth, I
was, before I came to ICEF.
This is all coming together before,
before me and em, and, Nick met.
I was gonna quit education.
I was gonna leave.
I was at a school.
Cate: What year were you?
What was going on?
Toutoule: It was year five.
Cate: Okay.
Toutoule: So I started in Pomona.
I was a middle school teacher
in Pomona for three years.
It's fantastic.
I wanted to teach high school
and I wanted to coach basketball.
At the high school.
I couldn't do it at Pomona
High School, any other school.
So I was like, I'm gonna
leave and go somewhere else.
So I left.
I got recruited to go teach to start
a physics program at Charter Oak.
Third year, my fourth year
started at Charter Oak.
The lady who recruited me made
my life like just terrible.
It was terrible.
Okay.
She was on me.
I hated going to work.
Oh, I would, my wife made me at the
time, my wife at the, she, when we
were talking, having this conversation,
she made me, Why stay or leave?
I have to think a list of things
and I'm like, this is terrible.
This is horrible.
I felt totally alienated.
Then I was like, I'm gonna
give it one more shot.
I'm gonna give it one more shot.
I'm gonna find a school to go to.
Glendora gave me the job a biology
job, and then I got a job to teach
downtown at this charter school.
And I, was telling my friend,
I was like, yo, I wanna go to.
I'm gonna go to Glendora, it's a
high performing school, whatever.
She was like, Toutoule,
Glendora is so white.
I was like, oh, wow.
That's interesting.
Because I would've, been
teaching any students of color.
The school I was going to was 100%,
African American decided on going
to that school and it really shift
shaped what's happening right now.
And I think, yeah, if I were to tell.
If I were to talk to my fourth
and fifth year in teacher self
Cate: uhhuh,
Toutoule: I would tell
him, find your people.
Gotta find your people.
Stick with your people.
And,
for some reason, this analogy
always rings true to me.
Like a screwdriver is
horrible at being a hammer.
A hammer is horrible
at being a screwdriver.
So you gotta find your thing.
Whatever your thing
is, you'll be the best.
Once the screwdriver finds a screw,
it's the best thing in the world.
Cate: Yeah.
Toutoule: Once the hammer finds
the nail to knock it in, it's
the best thing in the world.
So you gotta find your
thing
Cate: Yeah
Toutoule: Whatever your thing
is, find other people who also
like, yeah, similar things.
You come together with them
because that's what's gonna propel
you through the tough times.
Cate: Yeah.
Toutoule: Through the times when
you may not feel as, as valued.
Maybe you are unsure of what
direction you're gonna move in.
Cate: Yeah.
Toutoule: But you've got that
thing and the people who are gonna
help you with that thing and that
is what's gonna keep you moving.
Cate: I love it.
Toutoule: Ever since meeting
Am and Nick, we came together.
Then I left that situation and,
other things happened, but they were
still with me through that time.
And then, I found other people
online who I connected with and I
was like, these people were with
me when I started my journey.
It would've gave me excitement.
It would've gave me
things to look forward to.
It gave me things to, to strive for what,
to get better at, how to hone my craft.
But I think you need to find
your people and find your thing.
Cate: Find your thing.
Toutoule: If you find those
two together, that's what's
gonna propel you to longevity.
Cate: I love it.
I love it.
I can't thank you, all three
of you, but you too, gentlemen.
Enough, story is power and I am
grateful that we were able to.
Get a little bit of your story in here
and I'm excited that you're in my life,
Amarpal and Nick, and that's the best part
of doing these episodes is I'm walking
away with my own network, growing and
evolving and very self-serving of me.
But I am a connector, right?
And.
So thank you for the time and Toutoule.
I can't wait for our next
project, whatever it may be.
We're not done with each other though.
I don't think we're done.
Toutoule: No way.
No way.
No way,
Cate: Well, thank you both.
We'll make sure to put all your
contact info in the show notes
and, I think that's a wrap.
I think we're gonna wrap it right there.
Amarpal: Awesome.
Thank you, Cate.
Cate: Thanks, gentlemen.
Amarpal: for having time for us.
We really appreciate it.
Cate: Amazing.