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Optimum Professional Services are delighted to launch the new monthly conversational series, “Optimum: LIVE!” which will provide the opportunity for you to hear from members of the Optimum team and special guests each month as they delve into a variety of subjects in light-hearted, fire-side chat style productions.
Each episode will be shot or broadcast live (yep! One take!) which means that it is not scripted or edited and has a more natural and engaging tone.
This is a https://www.visual-pr.co.uk production
00:00 Speaker: Welcome back to Optimum Live. We're on to, what are we, episode 16 now. And I think this one's probably going to be a start of a bit of a mini-series that we'll interject at various episodes as we go. It's client stories because... Optimum have got a lot of clients in different industries with different challenges that they face, objectives that they've needed to tackle, etc. And so we're going to cover stories because it can help. And I'm speaking as a business owner myself at Visual PR Productions, knowing that I don't always automatically know those answers. I'm not an accountant. And to have that help to guide us through as a business is incredibly helpful. And that's what we're going to touch on today.
00:45 Speaker: So without further ado, I'm going to introduce our guests for this one. Well, a co-host, I think I should call you. I've got a promotion. You have? Yes, mate. Well, you've got to be a co-host for this one. You're not the guest in this one because the guest is actually Graham Liefeld from Gel Studios. Hello, sir. Hello. How are you doing? I'm good, mate. Obviously, we've got some weird synergy here in the fact that you're a client of mine for content like this. I'm a client of yours on the finance side.
01:11 Speaker: i'm a client of yours yeah for the websites and we've been a client of yours exactly the real focus of this one uh is that obviously you are a client with uh with optimum yeah now that's a fairly recent uh happenstance isn't it yeah i think it's probably the past nine months or so i think it has been really as long as that now yeah but i think we've been courting one another for a bit longer than that i think that's something we'll touch on you know uh change in accountants that could be something which is deemed scary um but i just knew that it was something we had to do we'll touch on it later but so yeah nine months as an active client
01:52 Speaker: Kids on the way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kids on the way. Happy relationship. Got a ring on the finger now. But yeah, it's been a really good nine months. Really good nine months. Although saying about that, congratulations on your engagement to Carly. Thank you very much. That was...
02:05 Speaker: That was October last year now. I don't know where that's gone. Jeepers, I can't believe how quickly the time's flying. I know, it's flown by. We're about to finish another financial year end going into April. Yeah, and it is quite apt, isn't it? We are approaching the end of the financial year, and it's those sort of milestones, certainly through a business's yearly calendar that kind of make you take stock. And that's kind of what prompted this conversation, really. We had one of our end-of-period review meetings yesterday.
02:30 Speaker: And it was, I said to you in a text, my best meeting of 2025 so far for me. And something that genuinely I needed a good meeting from because it's been a tough couple of months for us. We'll talk more about it later, but the relationships are really good. Really, really good.
02:47 Speaker: I mean, we'll let this kind of, as we know, the design of this to let it take its own course, its own life to some extent, but to make sure that Mike doesn't just get to sit there and drink water for the whole time. The key thing that you, and I'm going to even say that you enjoy, not just that you pride yourself on profession. No, you do. That you get to speak to this variety of business owners in the different industries.
03:14 Speaker: everybody's a little bit different even if they're in the same industry to sort of listen to what they're doing why they're doing it then put the thinking cap on about hang on are you aware of this etc yeah i think i think it's the the benefit of being in this role is that we look after all the different industries um so there are things that will happen to different different industries over a different period of time so something that would be now might be affected different business in a year's time so when they start to face those struggles we can go well hang on we've seen this this maybe look at this and create a conversational point about it um but the the thrill is just to see businesses thrive and really sort of help them out and get to the next stage that's definitely where the the
03:59 Speaker: the joy comes from the role and that that i guess one of your biggest jobs is you're like a translator to some extent i think we were talking about this as well graham is that they can talk in their language you'll go what yeah it might as well be a foreign one exactly yeah and this is something which is very which is a key point for me sort of moving to the guys here
04:23 Speaker: our business was going through a period of growth. We had challenges with regards to truly understanding what our numbers were. So when you see stuff in the BBC or you see stuff through social media and it's like, look, if you're a small business owner, there's a way that you can save money where you're immediately going to pay attention to that, right? Pennies count. And then when it's like, okay, I'm going to do the responsible thing. I'm going to talk to my accountant. I'm going to ask them to validate this for me. And when you get...
04:50 Speaker: you know loads of jargon speak come back and that's not really i don't think any poor reflection on accountants but it's just that moment to realize actually dealing with people not businesses in that moment what i found for me with traditionally my old accountant was i'd go into a conversation with like there's a great opportunity here i'd come out of it actually maybe feeling a little bit stupid because i don't understand what they're saying and then i wouldn't
05:15 Speaker: carry on with that avenue of stuff so i come away a little bit deflated one of the joys about the conversations that we have um is that um whether he does it consciously or not i don't know but it's kind of like right what kind of levels graham at with this stuff what's his understanding and i put it across in a way that he gets it and then equally we've got the relationship and the rapport to be like you know do you get that and i don't feel
05:37 Speaker: bad when I go, actually, could you explain that again for me? It's reading, you can tell whether someone's understood it by the look in their eye. They all got the fear of God or they're excited. And when you're saying something and you can see that, oh, there's a bit of a confused look, then that's the opportunity to say, well, let me try it a different way. And I think that's the most important bit quite often. You get people who just, here's the information, just chuck it at you and hope for the best.
06:04 Speaker: quite passionate like i want kind of teaching we've got the knowledge um so i actually want you guys to understand it because also the more you guys understand it in the long run the more confidence you either have to ask us the questions or be that you actually know the answer anyway yeah but but you know the difference of what is right to educate us on so that we know it and can do it going forward and what's like
06:27 Speaker: Don't worry about that. We got you. As fellow business owners, we don't have the time, the space to be able to understand everything about that finance side. One of my takeaways from that exact point is you see it in somebody's eyes. You guys know we invested really heavily in our office space.
06:48 Speaker: The reason for that was that we can have online chats, we can have online conversations, but actually it's the stuff where you're offline, where you see a colleague that might be tapping their keyboard or they might be doing things like that. You don't get that with remote relationships. Agreed. every single visit or once a year visits every single time we've had one of these reviews these guys have come to my office yeah and we sit in my little room the decision room um and we and we chat about stuff then there's equally all like the breakfast stuffs and everything that you do um to bring people together and obviously you've got you know you equally as in your organization have invested in a place to bring people together two places and it makes it really makes a difference and i think that that's definitely it is you can have
07:33 Speaker: a Teams call, a phone call, but you will only ever talk about the thing that you phoned up about. Whereas you sit with a... And again, last week, sat with a client, very typical year, looked good, looked very normal, should have been a run-of-the-mill meeting, so went in, talked about the new project and everything like that, and it was fantastic. And as the conversation goes on, he just dropped a little nugget of something that he'd done, and I was like, hang on a minute, let's just talk about that.
07:59 Speaker: And actually that, if we had left it untouched, would have cost him, that client, it was 12 grand. Wow. Just one thing because he went and done something, but he didn't think he needed to let me know. But by having those meetings and having that conversational point, stuff's moving about all the time. And it's for me to pick up, oh, that's a little bit of nugget. I'll have that, hold that. And then I'll patch together this view. But because we've had that.
08:22 Speaker: Literally, we've jumped on it. We changed some things. We've updated some reports and an action. And actually, we've saved him more than that now that it was going to cost him back the other way by swinging it back the other way. So I think, again, this is what I'm coming to see a client's business like yours coming out. We get to see the business. We get to see what's going on and stuff.
08:41 Speaker: Some people are a bit more confident in their own space as well than coming to the accountant. I always remember some people would be like scared of the tax man, therefore scared of the accountant. So when they come in, you can see them a little bit tense and stuff. You can see that build up. And so for those meetings, I'll spend the first 10 minutes trying to relax people, just chatting about life because you can just see them relax. And then when we give them information, they're ready to listen rather than going.
09:03 Speaker: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And assume it's going to be bad news. Yeah, that's it. And it's always nice to come out of the office. I love seeing people's offices and space and stuff. So quite often my meetings will be out at clients because it's nice to go and see it. No, I agree. And my experience when I moved over to you guys is that literally once a year, right, we need your documents. Hand them over. They do the end of year accounts. Come through. I thought I understood it, but I'd missed something very important on it because I didn't understand it.
09:33 Speaker: and i'm like guys you knew this was the first time i was running my own business surely a bit of handholding would have would have helped and i didn't get anything and that was when i was recommended over to you guys i've lost track of how many years ago now but it's it's got to be seven or eight years ago at least i would say i would sum it up uh graham in the fact that as well as accountants they're almost business advisors
09:59 Speaker: Yeah, totally. You need that. And speaking openly, both of you guys know this has probably been the toughest sort of six, seven months ever. What we witnessed for a bit of context was we knew going into 2024 that we had to almost reshape our business. We had to work with the right people on the right things to be seen as thinkers, not doers. And what that basically meant is saying goodbye to a lot of older clients, repurposing our messaging.
10:26 Speaker: and but what that meant was that when the budget happened when the change of power happened everybody was just holding on to their purse strings so our revenue went down and then me trying to lead the organization was okay guys just just stand firm we can do this What it basically culminated to is in October last year, I had to make some of the toughest calls ever in my life. Long-standing people in the business, I had to let go. It's the first time ever I've made people redundant. I had to put personal reserves into the business. It was a really, really scary time. A really scary time. The comfort for me came through the numbers, through the plan.
11:04 Speaker: um and you know the meeting yesterday it's really really fresh was kind of like a you know almost like a stamp of approval from the accountants that actually we've swung stuff the right way I wouldn't have got through that period of time if I didn't have key pillars of support around there. These guys are definitely one of those pillars because they've been approachable. They've been there even if I didn't need to ask them a question. I just knew that they were there and that they'd have my back. But they understood the business.
11:35 Speaker: They took the time to understand what we do. There's equally been a couple of referrals and stuff, which is great. And most people that do network and they say people like your accountant should be the best people to network stuff for you. Well, that's true to an extent, but there's actually the right types of people. So coming to Optimum was as much of a case of, I know that they can do this in terms of the compliance piece, which has been brilliant. And they understand my business and how I operate as a business owner. So we went through some of the spreadsheets and stuff yesterday. Again, he validated them. That's great. Those formulas are right. Thank God. But equally, they're made of the same stuff.
12:12 Speaker: So like a really, really little thing, we bumped into cinemas taking our kids to watch Sonic a movie. That's right, yeah. It's just really little things like that that make a difference, you know, family, man. Those sort of things for me make a massive, massive difference. And I think that's a key one. Can I just go back to that bit? He was the most excited there to watch Sonic. Oh, I know it. I grew up on that game. I loved it. I have no doubt. We're talking Mr. Superhero. He's probably there with his wife going, that guy over there, I don't know him. It's really loud. When you know people are motivated by those common things that make you as a business owner get up.
12:50 Speaker: go to work put your best foot forward and everything and you've got that similarities when you have those meetings you just know that they get where you're coming from and that's really important We're human beings that haven't been through this life before. I know some people have an argument to that one, say we have. I used to be a cow in a previous life or something. Yeah, a budgie. Yeah, exactly. And I just used to be a smuggler. But we're humans that are learning as we go. And it's the question marks that we need to not have when we're busy, we're stressful, and we're trying to make this work.
13:26 Speaker: If the question marks are still there, we hear all the stories where a company stopped just on the precipice of success, let's call it, whatever that happened to be. And it's like you need to have those ticks to go. okay, we're going in the right direction rather than go, do I need to change again? Do I need to change again? I think that's without, and this goes back to ones we've done on the business plan. Without a plan, you don't know if you are that close to the end or if you're all the way down here. So if you have something that you're aiming for, so part of yesterday's meeting when you were going through really proudly of sort of where you're looking to go with the business and stuff was actually not to just go, yeah, lovely, that's great. Was actually, I wanted to quiz you on something. What do you mean by that?
14:09 Speaker: what's that figure and what's the aim there because i can know then that when we're joining in the meetings over the next year of course that's the journey we're going on because of this this and this because sometimes people get illusion of i'm going to do this and it's for a payout or for this or for like like a big big ticket event that actually they're isolated on it rather than seeing the big the big picture of the whole thing so quiz you on it got it i understand the journey now we'll make sure we're part of that journey yeah
14:39 Speaker: And I know you were saying earlier is that twice a year are sort of like the bare minimum vital ones. And for both of those, you are looking forward six months and backward six months. Yeah, that's it. So any quote, any new client, some client accountants will just do accounts attached to them. That's it, your bare minimum, anything else is on top. Whereas I go, well, actually, I want the other things to become part of the core fee.
15:08 Speaker: a pre-year-end review. So typically, after you've completed nine months, in month 10, we'll have a chat, see where things have been and where you're going. And then once you've got a few of them in the way, when you've got the one to do the year-end account, say four or five months after the year-end, it's a quick check. Yep, that's what it was. We thought it'd be this, and we're a couple of grand that are different. So fine, tick in a box. So that's done, because that's the past, and it was what we thought it was going to be.
15:33 Speaker: Then where are we going for the next six months? Then we get to the next meeting before the rent. So we thought we were going to do this. Where are we on there? And it's just that whole point of looking forward, not just looking backwards. And it's creating opportunities. So you get the opportunities of if you keep taxes given. So if you know what you're taking over the next six months, you know how much tax is put aside.
15:55 Speaker: So therefore, when I go along the line and say, here's your tax bill, most people hopefully have either got it saved or are aware of it. Not everyone saves it, but they're aware of it and go, yeah, I know at that point. So I messaged Graham a couple of months ago just to say, just checking you got this tax bill on your radar. And you're like, yep, got it. That's great. That's the main thing. There's a tax bill coming that everyone knows and it's no shock.
16:19 Speaker: No, exactly right. And then if there's a need to sort of like questions come up is that to know that we can speak to them, I think is a big one. And one of the things that, apologies, very remiss of me, I didn't do. And I want you to now give us a synopsis of who Jail Studios are and a key point. And I'm going to go back to this changing of encounters, but I actually want to talk about where you have changed.
16:45 Speaker: as a business over the last six to nine months maybe 12 months i've lost track now sure uh that has meant that there was a lot more questions and answers required and things like that so yeah what do gel studios do okay so we are a purpose-led full service creative agency so um in essence we do all the traditional stuff um websites marketing strategy design um we're great people for video plug
17:13 Speaker: um but essentially what our model is is you know purpose driven so we work with organizations which are you know unapologetically for profit that comes in and that is then what fuels our bursary funding to help with the local community um we're probably b corp which again is another sort of tick in the box in terms of that we're building something which which is which is good um but yeah we're in our 14th year of business
17:38 Speaker: Probably taking really nicely onto your next point, what's changed, is understanding the numbers and equally defining a goal. When I started the business, everybody said, make a business plan. And I was like, well, I'm creative. I don't need a business plan. I just want things to see. But ultimately, if you don't know where you're going, how can you measure yourself for progress? So certainly over the last nine to 12 months, like I said, sort of beginning of 2024, it was like, okay, Graham, what is it you really want to do? And that was helped with my mentor, James Phipps, background of philanthropy, background of the style of leadership, which is what I want to do, but with a really clear goal of doing good.
18:22 Speaker: for people and for the community. So I knew that I really wanted to work for him for a long time. But he will sort of say he is the black and white. So set a goal and work towards it. And we worked together to find out what those goals are and then essentially work backwards from them. So we got a goal for five years time. We know the numbers that we want to hit.
18:44 Speaker: We know what we want to ideally sell for. It's up to me how much I want to put the foot down in terms of doing it and not. That's also then given me the confidence to understand what key hires come in. So we've kind of got like our first potentially six-figure hire on the table, which is going to be transformational for the business. That's a scary, you look at that as a salary number as a business owner, that's scary.
19:06 Speaker: But when you actually look at the numbers, you understand the plan. You've got an accountant who understands where you're going. You've built things responsibly. You've got good contracts in place. You've got all those things. Then you can go for it. So in a nutshell, I've grown up a lot. As I sort of alluded to earlier, I've got a couple of scarves, which I'm carrying for that now. And I think that any sort of person who's grown a business and...
19:32 Speaker: how to shape a team and make the tough calls will probably understand where I'm coming from with that. But there's some things there which I'm very sad about. But tied into the goal of the bigger that we get, the more good that we can do, that's what the driving force is.
19:52 Speaker: Hopefully that answers the question. Yeah, no, absolutely. And isn't it interesting how that works? I mean, we know that Visual PR Productions, my company, is still in its infancy, two years this month, actually, that I've existed as a thing. And so I'm going through the scale-up challenges.
20:13 Speaker: where I know that to grow my business, I need to spend on people space, but to be able to afford that, I need to grow my business and you guys to be able to help and guide with that. But the reason why I bring that up is that, isn't it interesting, is that you've gone through a new scale up period. What did you say, 14 years? Yeah. And yet, because you've decided, do you know what? I want to change this a little bit. You've got...
20:42 Speaker: I'm going to say you got stayed, not in the negative way. You were doing the same thing month in, month out, year in, year out, and it was working, clearly. It was working, but it wasn't hitting your personal goals. Yeah, so there's this thing thrown around about glass ceilings in business. You've got the million one, you've got the three million, you've got the five million. So there's a couple that I want to knock through. But there are fundamental challenges across all of them that you have to look at. So our fundamental challenge at Jawa Studios was me.
21:10 Speaker: i would like to think i'm a nice guy and that's resulted in graham giving away lots of work um that's fine because that's what makes me feel good and part of my story is almost like a redemption arc to want to do good to make my parents feel proud to make my family members you know you know proud of seeing what i do The realization in my journey is that what I did was when I was a child and I had a lot of growing up to do and I've used that as a positive experience to now share with others. Now that I've got that confidence and you know I speak about that it's still hard shaking a little bit just going about it because there's people out there that have never met me don't really know much you know they can draw their assumptions.
21:48 Speaker: whatever they like. But knowing that that can be spun into something which can inspire people and knowing that I've created gel to help more people, that's a really, really good thing. But what did it manifest itself in? Let's talk numbers. Our hourly rates weren't right. So when we had our capacity and we were utilizing the number of members of team with the hours coming in, if our margins aren't of the right amount, then as we grow, our margins grow, the risk increases.
22:14 Speaker: So that's basically what we hit last year. So what did that mean? Having a company on a contract with 30 hours at a lower hourly rate is generally not as good as having a company that is paying a higher hourly rate on less hours. It gives you more capacity. This is what I spoke about earlier.
22:29 Speaker: When you get that right, that's when you can start to build your margins in. What do you do with your margins? Reinvest them in the business. You can grow at a sustainable rate. You can put it into talent, everything with regards to the PAY increases and everything like that. If your margins are not right, you cannot capacitate for that. And then inflation and then talent retention and then anything else that you need to do. So that was a fundamental thing that we had to overcome.
22:56 Speaker: I won't share numbers, but you were looking at them yesterday and this plan is in swing for the past couple of months. It's made a profound difference to what we're doing. It took a good year to get there though, but now we're on the right trajectory with the right margins and everything. I think what's key there is that over the 14 years, you knew the numbers but didn't know it to that detail. Yeah, totally. What Graham was showing me yesterday of what he was going through, it's got really granular with the details.
23:25 Speaker: But because of that, you can see where the margins are. And we talk about it with other things of like how many pence is going into paying your overheads. And it's just understanding that's your margin. So yeah, you could be making a bit of money off the top, but if you're not creating enough hours, selling enough hours, you're not going to cover the overheads. You're not going to make the bit of the bottom. A busy fall. Yeah, and that's it. And so when you start working from the bottom upwards with the figures and accounts and stuff like that, and it's getting to know the numbers and having the confidence to...
23:53 Speaker: to check them and to sound them out and talk to us about them as well. But through knowing your numbers, you've done an absolutely amazing job with it. And it's what's then given you that vessel, because I know you not just take pride, you're positively emotional about being able to give back to charities and community. Your resources to those is something that you are always phenomenally proud, understandably.
24:23 Speaker: Getting that right is what enables you to do more of that. Yeah. And I mean, this is, you know, in our journey at the moment, we've got a couple of clients which are in the charity sector. Charity sector, care homes, hospices in the recent budget have been absolutely steamrolled. Absolutely steamrolled. So when we're trying to adjust organizations like that to new hourly rates, minimum amounts of hours and stuff, they're tough chats. So one analogy I have is a zero to 100 miles an hour.
24:50 Speaker: um another thing sort of learned from james he articulates it brilliantly it's become part of our common language we're not at 100 miles an hour yet we're on our way but when we look forward and we know where we want to go when we're working with the organizations which are coming in bringing profit those organizations and charities will 100 be bursary funded so when you look at the difference that you can then make to regional or national charities by 100 pro bono in your work to them and you look at the impact that that makes is profound
25:19 Speaker: Another thing that we did as well is we focused our efforts for 2025 because we had this goal for growth and the numbers and everything like that is we aligned ourselves with one specific partner, Swindon Carers. Their impact, they provide caring resources, training, respite, everything for 18,000 unpaid carers ranging from the ages of six to 92, just in Swindon. Wow. Just in Swindon. So when we look at...
25:46 Speaker: what it does for us as a company culture we've got a team of people that are like go home from work i've had i've had a part to play on that um when you look at the impact in the local community and it's like they're they're still surviving they're helping because of our marketing efforts you know all of that stuff is possible when you understand the numbers those numbers are validated you've got margins which enable sustained growth when people think often when you do work for good profit is a bad thing profit is not a bad thing profit shows that you're building something that's sustainable
26:15 Speaker: yeah this is something i realized far too late you've got to give away everything that you make right because we're b corp we've got to do that no that's not the case at all it's what you do with those profits that counts yeah so that's where things like employee ownership's on the table we do occasionally write traditional check donations but the main thing is our value and our resource which we give out to people because that can make much more impact than just numbers but we can't do it if we're not running a profitable and sustainable business no and
26:43 Speaker: I've kind of learned and have a passion myself is it's not even just say the charitable and community is that I've got a real passion for micro business and early stage businesses that again from experiences that you're going I know that if I could have that service or whatever it would help me go up leapfrog yeah
27:07 Speaker: But you just can't. And it can kill, you know, hence we get those stats, the amount of businesses that within the first two years just go pop because they can't get there. And it's like, okay, well, I want to be able to help. I have to sort of put a certain number that I can do at any one time. But it's like, actually, it's the other business that facilitates me being able to do that at this absolutely ripped down, you know, figure and things. And it is about giving back. And I love your...
27:33 Speaker: The phrase there about it's not about giving away the profit. It's about how you use them. And that's a key thing. Totally. I mean, the big one that I'm seeing here as well with your role, Mike, as in as the company's role, is we're talking about how you listen and you advise and you look back, you look forward. But you've also got to be flexible in your understanding. At the moment, you understand Graham. You understand Gel Studios.
28:02 Speaker: You understand Graham and you understand Gel Studios now. That doesn't mean you know the 2026 version yet. And that's the key of the conversations, is to keep sort of keeping up to date, keep checking things. Yeah, and that's the important bit. It's keeping that open communication going the whole time. So it's all things of how do we make that easy? So there was a bit yesterday where we...
28:28 Speaker: look after and check your back returns check the bookkeeping and do all that but at the moment because graham's focus on the numbers he's doing quite a lot of it he's worried that we're stepping on our toes we're worried that we're not doing what we should be doing but kind of just a simple check of are you happy how things are yeah okay we'll just leave a vet to just check things in the background and we'll do it and the vet went to me um last quarter and she's like oh graham's father back return what what what what do i should do i said just go and check it yeah i just go and check if there's any adjustments it'll pop on the next one but just know that we're just quietly in the background just going through and checking things and that's it it's so again that was different to maybe what it was when we first met
29:06 Speaker: But we'll just adapt. There's no one size fits all, I don't think, with any client really. When they're in the stages of business that you are, there are some that just come along. They don't want to speak to us. That's fine. And you have those ones. You always do. And I was going to say, for the sake of fairness, is that I know that we said about what happened previously didn't work. These guys are business advisors. To some people, they just want accountants that says, there's my figures. Give me what I need once a year.
29:33 Speaker: And that's fine. But what I like is that, you know, you guys, you can go and do that. But where you really enjoy your work is when you're rolling your sleeves up, you're getting the grey matter all fizzing and working with people. And we need to know that we can have those question marks quashed.
29:55 Speaker: we can be flexible like even me saying you don't know what 2026 gel and graham is i don't know what tomorrow looks like no but we know i do but yeah i do but that's what's exciting is that you go do you know what we can be flexible because how many times does it happen that you kind of go ah, now that that's happened, that actually, whether it's diversification, whether it's acquisition, whether it's going the opposite way, that actually goes, you know what, we can do this leaner. You never know what those changes can be, but it gives the confidence, it gives the insight, the up-to-date insight as well, because obviously we can have budgets, we can have whatever happening. You guys...
30:36 Speaker: have the exciting existence of swatting up on all of that. Get the book out, let's check it out. Yeah, that's it. The flexibility really was a really key decision. So we knew going in that we didn't want it just to be an invoice once a year kind of thing. So before we'd even sort of agreed what it was, it was like, well, for me, it would work great if I can just budget per month what this is going to look like. And we came up with something which is a monthly amount, gives me the assistance that I want.
31:03 Speaker: and then there's no surprises at the end of the year. I can budget for it. That works really well. And just going back to that point about how things change with Yvette doing some of our stuff, as I said earlier, the past couple of months for me, I have been logging on every day, looking at the numbers, seeing every invoice that comes through, everything that's been paid. That comes from a position of fear. When I went into the meeting yesterday, it was like, I've not stepped on your toes, have I? And I was greeted with compassion and empathy.
31:33 Speaker: When we think about accountancies, traditional accountancy practices, we look at them as very binary. It's ones and zeros. It's the numbers. And that manifests itself in a lot of behaviors. This is people first, numbers second. So another key point about our conversation yesterday was, you know, I'm really into my cars. Really into my cars. And we kind of went on a conversation. It was like, you know, this is what a company car would look like. My ears pricked up. Oh, hello.
32:03 Speaker: not going ahead with it, but what I took away, which was a real value, Mike was able to sort of say, you can enjoy some of this now. Yeah, I know you've got your plan in five years time and you can do what you want, obviously, after that plan, but actually there's an element here where you can commercially benefit and you can actually have an element of enjoyment because it's no good in having a plan.
32:26 Speaker: you'd be burnt out halfway through it, right? Because you can't enjoy some of the stuff which comes with it. And, you know, my responsible head went on. Carly was really surprised when I showed her the email. She was like, wow. Responsible went on last night. Not at the time. Say an M5 is a plug-in hybrid and you can get a thing. You're like, okay, fair enough. But my point is, that was one really great example of the difference. It's not a numbers thing. It's a case of building something that's sustainable.
32:55 Speaker: making sure that you yourself you know in it for that and there are elements where you can enjoy stuff and he got that and i got that in that moment and yeah it was nice to go and have a little look and everything but what it also did is it firmly then dialed in my goal and how determined I am towards my goal. It was like a little test. It was good. When's the right time and all of that. We put a pin in it for a year and we'll have a chat then. I think, again, it's just knowing it. It's understanding. You ask questions at different times.
33:27 Speaker: It's just there. It's just burning away. It's just bugging me. Can I just put it to bed or follow it through? Exactly. Tick, done. Right, I go back to the normal. And there'll be questions that I'll end up asking now that I've never thought about because it was never relevant. But the changes, the growth or whatever suddenly makes me go, oh, yeah, what about this?
33:48 Speaker: because it was never on my radar before and it is that that whole thing what about things i mean we heard graham there talk about and i've always known this one of his his goals that may not happen but it's a goal is the employee uh ownership thing and i mean that's very popular these days you know i was working with like nsbrc that are employee owned um you would get involved in that as well
34:13 Speaker: yeah we we would definitely help with some sometimes all of it depending on the size of scale and the magnitude but we can definitely hold the conversations to start with of that initial bit of these are some of the things you need to think of these are shaping up how to do it and it comes down to sort of trying to find the staff that aren't just employees and i don't mean that in a derogatory term like some people just very much happy to do the hours go home and not think back again whereas others just want that little bit more and it's trying to find those ones so there's no point putting someone who's a nine to five just very sort of i'm done i've done my hours don't want to think about it i've worked really hard for you i've got what i needed i've helped out someone i've got paid
34:55 Speaker: right there's no point putting them into a position of responsibility because you'll fail them and so part of what we'll do is just talk about right so you've you've isolated these people we've done this done that right tell me and and go through sort of the people and the characteristics a bit and understand them and then we go through like sort of some of the tax differences and stuff and that's a key one for me is that i know that the the employee owned uh um body
35:22 Speaker: will have all sorts of advice and everything for you. But to then get away from them that, no disrespect, I'm sure they're going to be slightly biased to their methodology. And that's not in a derogatory way. They just are going to be. And you know you're going to get independent. advice and what have you as well, and an extra set of eyes. And it's just nice to know that's there. Whether you use it or not is then up to us as businesses. And this is what getting to know the business is all about, right? So the reason why I'm planning on doing it or a version of it is to reward the people for being with us on that journey. And that includes people past, present, and potentially in the future.
36:01 Speaker: When you look at most of the employee-owned things that are out there, they're consultants at the moment. So they're going to come straight in and look at it as a meal ticket. This is a service-based piece of work. They're not going to ask the question, is that right? Employee ownership is one route. Management buyout is another. Selling the business is another. It's understanding what I want to do and then exploring it with a trusted partner.
36:24 Speaker: like these guys, to be able to just understand it at top level so you can go into these conversations and you've got a bit of that knowledge. I'm kind of one of the people that likes to get the devil in the details. It's just kind of my personality. I like to do that. So knowing that I can absorb that information and then make my decisions and there's opinions which have been put over which are valid and look at some of the areas which I'm not aware of, like the tax efficiencies and stuff, that's what makes the difference.
36:51 Speaker: Conscious of time, so I'm going to move on to something you brought up early on, changing accountants. That can feel like a very daunting and possibly even go, do you know what? Forget it. Let's just stay with where we are. Talk us through that. So you don't really know what you don't know until you've done it. So the gift of looking back is great. And we've spoken today about the two ends of the spectrum.
37:18 Speaker: We've got the people which are just, you know, let's deal with the accounts and let's make sure we're compliant. But then I'm not one of the people that wants that. I kind of have built everything from nothing. And I kind of take an element of satisfaction and comfort in things being validated by external professional parties. Getting something that's just submitted at the end of the year doesn't do it for me. Having a meeting once a year where the tax planning advice is basically where you've got some cash, you just want to put it into a stakeholder pension.
37:48 Speaker: That's not it for me. It doesn't show that there's a journey. Especially with all the changes you were starting to think about as well. Totally, totally. And it's like, do I feel able to have those kind of conversations? There was nothing wrong with my previous accountants at all. Completely fine at doing what they did. But when we looked at things like we tried a monthly service and we had to change our process quite significantly to match what their stuff was, that didn't really work.
38:18 Speaker: There were processes that we were doing which were exaggerated, which resulted in, you know, more time and frustration. You know, came over here. There's a great product you do, which is almost like insurance, isn't there, for like when we put stuff through. So if there ever is anything or there's an inspection, it's covered. I mean, it's just like, that's brilliant. That thing on its own, you know, off the back of asking the guys, how should I do it? That saves me hours a month just on one little thing. One little thing. So it was kind of like...
38:46 Speaker: This is becoming frustrating. At this time, I delegated our finance function to somebody inside the team. It was just, you know, you're just paying them. I'm paying that person there. Like, what's going on? I need to unstitch it. So some of the gift of going through that sort of immense pain was me being like, right, what do I really want? What do I really want here? And actually, one of the first decisions was to commission these guys to do monthly pieces of work for us because it just worked and everything had to start from the numbers and work upwards from there.
39:16 Speaker: um so it was it was like a you know fight the fear or whatever they call it you know to do it um but then actually once i sent the email that was kind of it and actually what i witnessed yeah and actually it was really it was a great email everything kind of went over and it was fine um but it was kind of like yeah we kind of felt that it wasn't right either so then i was kind of like well how long did you i didn't say it but it was like how long did you feel that then
39:43 Speaker: Because I know I've been feeling this for about a good couple of years, right? And if you've been feeling it too, then if that was a client for us, again, based on what I told you in terms of saying things aren't right for us for clients, I'd have raised it. So then I just became, I felt like a number. It's fear the other way though, isn't it? And it further just validated the decision to move. So all I would say is that have the email, send the email, have the chat with the accountant at the moment. And at the first port of call, just ask.
40:12 Speaker: do you feel that we're a good fit for you you know i mean there's there's plenty of accountancy practices and stuff out there um from my experience there's not many which have this approach with people first and that is what i value immensely from going through what i'm going through and in fairness and it is being devil's advocate is that you hit on a key point there is it's not just that oh an accountant's done it quote unquote wrong it's like no you weren't a good fit for them anymore
40:37 Speaker: Yeah, and there's an element of accountability I take on that. Again, looking inwards on what I've been through the past six months, a lot of this, if not all of it, is on me. As I said, I started my business from a position of wanting to do some redemptions, do some good stuff. So that meant that I would not have some of those tough chats. I'd take that on my shoulders, metaphorically speaking. I wouldn't have the conflict. Who am I to have conflict? I'm just happy these people are working with me.
41:05 Speaker: Having the tough chats is needed. And it's one of those things, learning to say no, it's like a muscle in business. You've got to practice it. But when you can get it, it's a very powerful thing to use. But I'm very glad that I did it. And learning, even though I've been doing this like this amount of time, I still feel like I'm learning new stuff every day. I agree. And this is, I've learned a lot in a very condensed amount of time. But I definitely feel it makes me a better leader because of it.
41:34 Speaker: But equally, like I said, some of the scars that you carry are hard. It makes you stronger than that. It does. Yeah, it does. When you get those choices coming up again, you kind of see them coming a little bit more. Which is great learning opportunities. I know the last time I'd done it, it hurt at the time, but it was better after. And it's just trying to learn by those experiences. You have to do it. You can't ignore them. You have to spin them into a benefit.
42:01 Speaker: isn't it the things that have gone through um i try to maybe it would take me a little bit more time to be more sageful with it but um yeah it's just one of the things you think it goes back to when we're you know young And you kind of go to reach that, oh, that hurt. Yeah, put your finger in the fire. And then you're interested again, and like, that hurt. And then you kind of go, oh, hang on. The problem is when you're weirdly drawn to fire, though. I don't know why. And of course, now it means looking at the list. So tax planning for accounts, personal, cars, management accounts.
42:33 Speaker: payroll review, VAT review, and it has become that you've moved the whole kit and caboodle over. So from your perspective, so just because I think it's an interesting topic that Graham and I have both been through that change accountants, that does...
42:52 Speaker: There can be an overwhelm of what lies ahead, and apathy must be your worst nightmare. Oh, forget it. Do you know what? Let's just stick with what we're doing. But what does it involve? Because I've got to be honest and say, I don't remember it being a headache at all. No, I think a lot of people fear because they've been on account 10, 15 years or so, and it's, oh, but they've got all my background. They know all this information. How do you get all that? And it's like, so the process goes, we'll essentially give you the words to write. You send them an email.
43:22 Speaker: Job done. That's your bit. That is it. We then go to the accountant, get the information, get the previous years. Now, the fear that people have of not knowing the background and not knowing that, not the history, that's where I think us are here. we're great at is that because we have those conversations so we would have already had a conversation first to meet and greet and go through and understand what it is we're quoting for and providing because it's not one size fits all it is uh right what do you need what works for you guys yeah but we are gathering information from the minute getting a picture understanding the background understanding where things have come from bits in the past most software and most accounts are in softwares now so we'll have a look over the past few years what's what's there
44:07 Speaker: And to be honest, most of the time, there isn't these big bits of nugget that happened 10 years ago that we need to know about because that was the past. It's all dealt with. The important bits will still be visible now. If they were important to know there, they will still be visible. They'll be all right. That's it. And so things like tax relief on like...
44:28 Speaker: property assets bits like that we can see that in two reports that they sent over they've either claimed it or they haven't fine if they haven't we can deal with it if they have great we know and so actually there's that with what we how we digest the information there's so much that comes across that feel that that is the history that we can digest in no time at all but from a point of of of what you guys got to do literally here's an email thanks very much for everything over the years
44:54 Speaker: I'm moving to Mike, moving to Rob, moving to Hannah. We're moving over to Optimum. And that's it. We go and get it on. We get logged into Xero, QuickBooks, whatever software. We have a little scan through. We tend to appoint someone else in the team on the day-to-day. So like for yourself, you had a vet. A vet goes in once a day, just quickly checks things over, just tiders up anything that's not done. He hasn't done already at 6 o'clock in the morning.
45:17 Speaker: And we go and we finish. And then when there's something else, so Yvette will let me know if there's something that she sees that's like, oh, it doesn't feel quite right here. go and have a look. And then we've got the definite two points that we always have a look at. And let's face it, in business, six months goes like that. So it seems like some people go, well, I want to meet more regularly. And we can do that. We can facilitate quarterly meetings and bits like that. But actually, in a fast-moving business, six months is still quite good. We've just backed that up. I thought it was only a couple of months ago. And so in that time, we've actually had three, four meetings in that time. They seem quite spaced out. So I was thinking when we were doing this,
45:55 Speaker: one so i actually haven't seen you for a while but actually it was it was actually closer than you think but the story's still there we're still following the same path exactly exactly right and and i am conscious that of course i said that you know i'm delighted that visual pr productions is two years old this month and yet i've been with you guys for eight nine years that might confuse some people but of course i've got open doors training my public speaking i've got my media of course and i've got my uh media company where i do my motorsports commentating and all of those crazy things so you know it's it's been that evolution with those things and and there lies another thing is that you could have people with with multiple businesses or multiple trading as and things like that and you guys are able to
46:40 Speaker: bring that image together for you know i don't want to have to now have multiple hats on i'm going i still need just one conversation in reality and you're able to facilitate that and just a self plug for that so one of the things i've done with another client recently where they've had all these different businesses is he wants to bring in certain figures in to share with the team right but naturally showing the full profit and loss to the team
47:06 Speaker: gives the wrong information because people get excited they see numbers and think wow look at all that they won't remember the journey they'll remember what the investment so that that happens but understanding that that client worked out that actually This is what he needs to see, but we can facilitate the top line. So we talked before about concrete companies, how many cubic meters they sell, how many pints in a pub they sell, and bits like that. And again, we're translating that language down to the user to go, right, I work with a photographer, and it's like, right, so you need to do this many wedding photographies in a year, this many family shoots in this, and that will be the combination you need. And literally, you can just tick them off and stuff. But you're already doing that.
47:47 Speaker: yourself without us because you've gone through and worked out time projects reoccurring income this and that yeah and it shows what the power of that information is because you can take it down to your language and give you the comfort rather than it being this massive figure so like when certain companies you say oh yeah you've got the turnover 300 000 pound a month oh my days that's massive you roll it all the way back to the units you're selling oh i can do that in two and a half weeks exactly yeah exactly but i like the fact there was a story without i'm not going to give too much of the information away but there was a membership based business and they had the you know like you were saying about you you start whether it's five years or whether it's that's my goal whatever and you work backwards from it and i like that as advice because
48:28 Speaker: I fell into a trap for ages of looking forwards to it, and you'll never get it, whereas work backwards. And they had figures, I think it was, in mind. And you said, okay, to do that, you do realize that you would need this many memberships. And then they realized that wasn't possible. It isn't possible. And so it needed to relook, whether it's looking at the figures, like you've done a big thing exercise over the last, what is it now?
48:56 Speaker: We've always had a thing on the figures. It's just how you put it together. So I'll do a plug now. It's basically when understanding what customers' goals are and then translating them backwards. And that's fundamentally the difference of when you go to other agencies and they're like, well, it's £500 a month, £1,000 a month, and then you know you're going to fail before you've even started. What you need to do is put the brakes on, understand the business, understand the journey, understand where they want to go, agree on what success looks like.
49:24 Speaker: and then work back a plan. So there is no one size that fits all. And that exact approach is exactly what you guys do. And that's why that synergy and stuff is right there. How do you, and it does still apply to obviously Optimum's business in the way, but focusing on what you've just said there, I'm going to wrap up in a second, but interesting that you made that comment that says,
49:48 Speaker: it's not just right it's x hundred a month or whatever it is is that you kind of go what is the ultimate goal right how are we going to get there how are we going to repeat it work backwards how do you manage to arrive at that now if i thinking as a business owner that says right i know for my business i want to get there yeah My brain's going, right, how do we work backwards from that? I don't get it. So we do several workshops. One of them is a goal-setting workshop. So I'm just going to, on the fly, go off of your example of the photographer. So photographers have a number in their mind about what they need to do. We will then understand what their product looks like. We will then understand what budget they have for marketing.
50:29 Speaker: um what we can do through our industry knowledge expertise and diversity of clients is a client might come to us and say i've got a thousand pounds a month i know that i need my website to be optimized what we can say is that okay that makes sense i understand where you're coming from well done but what we actually see is that that thousand pounds could be spent on something completely different to yield you a greater return so well that's the exercise in a nutshell that we go through
50:56 Speaker: And normally, that's what happens. We're in a commercialized world where Helga from the one-in-one adverts or whatever it is comes on board. I don't do impressions. That's awful. And don't put that anywhere. That's the last thing I need. But they sell the now. They don't sell what to get to and what success looks like in the future. That's normally what we find in our industry we're up against. People come in. I know I need that.
51:24 Speaker: why do you know because i've seen it i've seen a tv out there it's credible right okay but when we break it down we have lost clients because we're like well i can't give you a price now i'll give you a range but i can't give you a price why because we need to go through the discovery we need to go through the workshop your industry is completely different uh something like paid advertising might be fundamentally different for a florist than it is for say a photographer or something like that
51:47 Speaker: If we don't do the goal setting, we can't agree on what success looks like. If we can't agree on what success looks like, we're consciously going into an arrangement which has a finite expiry date on it. And we're all about longstanding, mutually beneficial relationships. That is, in a nutshell, how we answer that. And equally, I could be sat here dissatisfied going, it's not giving me what I need.
52:09 Speaker: and it's like going because you didn't know what it was yeah exactly to know that you're aiming for the same angle and and the reason why i brought that up as well as it being i think a great opportunity to talk about gel studios and what you guys do but there's some great synergy in terms of optimum in the fact that it might not be creative And what people do think, well, it's just numbers. That's coming in, that's going out. I'm going to owe that. It's like, no, no, no. There is an artistic, creative cycle. Some clients will go for profit maximization. How much money can I get? I want to rinse it for everything. I want to pay for the holidays. I want four holidays. And other people go, actually, I need this amount to live on. That'll make me very comfortable, but I need time with the kids.
52:47 Speaker: So before I had kids, I was probably more on the profit, like earning more, making more, driving the business. I have kids, you suddenly realize, actually, no, there's a different thing here. So I spoke to a client, they want to take on someone else, it pushes them through to the back threshold, which means the turnover goes up again. And this, and I'll go, right, so you've got to do all that to stand still, to bring all these extra costs on. What's that doing for your journey? Is it getting towards where you want to be? Or is it just adding a whole lot of stress?
53:16 Speaker: So with my wife's business, the shop wasn't, we hoped it's going to turn well and it's growing and it's doing well, but it wasn't just about the finance of the business. What quality factors does it bring by having the shop? what and like different investment opportunity what's growing the business what else does it bring so you can't just play a book with someone i've got someone who takes out money to put in a savings account pays higher rate tax right which to me is like why are you doing that just leave it there and take it if you need it there's your there's your savings account in there all right when it's in the saving account in his personal account he sleeps when it's in the business account he doesn't sleep i get that so i get that so a tax bill is not it is the fact that i'm going there going well it's not very tax efficient doing that
53:58 Speaker: i could do that but then he's not going to sleep yeah so actually and and i spoke about it a couple years this was years ago now a couple years we went through the same thing and i've got then that actually this is a this is a non-financial thing he's very happy to keep paying the tax bill because over here he's very very comfortable and it's it's all those little bits of you've really got to understand someone and what the motives are health changes come in i know we've we've had conversations with people in the past that that has suddenly changed what the priority is and and it is about seeing what that is and and you mentioned tax there you know you're uh you're retired
54:32 Speaker: patriarch of optimum and regulatory accounting as it used to be before that, Richard Matthews, I remember him always telling me, don't chase the dragon. If you've got to pay tax, pay tax and be proud that you've been successful enough to have to. Well, maybe not 100%. It's like whenever I send a tax turn out, I never put the words, are you happy for this to be fired? Sign this if you're happy.
54:55 Speaker: if you're content yeah it's the same as the other one i get through is that going is this correct and i'm like I don't know. If you're telling me it is, I'm happy. It's always the other one. Listen, guys, I think it's fair to say we could carry on. I think we need to do another episode. It's your idea where we've got ails on the table instead and they set the world to right. Give it a go, won't we? If you say so, you're in an optimist. It's the optimum goggle box. Optimum goggle box. That's almost what we're talking about. We'll get a few turned up to that one.
55:33 Speaker: Do that with the budget. That's a great idea. It's a good idea that way. But no, we could carry on talking for ages. Mike, thank you for your input from obviously from the service provider perspective in more than just being accountants, but about that business advice and the dynamic, constantly moving, looking and working with and getting to know us as clients. Graham, thank you for sharing the journey.
56:02 Speaker: you know one that as i've said i can relate to but on a smaller scale earlier scale as well um and such that unique bit with everything that you guys are doing at the moment which is really exciting i can never is it gel dash studios or gel studios i thought so gelstudios.co.uk to go and check out that
56:23 Speaker: Obviously, with you guys, it's optps.co.uk, as in optimum professional services, which does include not just accountancy and tax, but also legal as well, conveyancing, and we did a previous episode on that, et cetera. So go and check out those guys as well. Well worth it. Thank you for coming in, Graham.
56:46 Speaker: Hopefully that that's made perfect sense to everybody. And maybe it's resonated. Something there has made you kind of go, that's relevant to me. If you've got any questions at all, my best advice, and Graham will echo me on this, I'm sure, is reach out. Nothing's a silly question. No, that's the whole point. Have the confidence speak to us. I'm happy to just talk it through. Even if it goes, doesn't go with you guys, is have that conversation at this stage. Get rid of those question marks, isn't it?
57:13 Speaker: totally and come along to one of their breakfasts yeah definitely 8th of april yep 8th of april free networking breakfasts here and then the other month is at the cheltenham office as well um so yeah they are good aren't they because it's relaxed there's no stand up and do a 60 second pitch or anything like that it's just chat with everybody it's really really nice and lovely bacon rolls
57:34 Speaker: Gents, thank you so much. Brilliant episode 16. Keep your eyes peeled for what we're going to do for episode 17. I believe we've got Rob. Rob Stokes. Yeah, Rob's going to be with us while you're swanning off for a little bit. And we need to rethink May now because it's not you next May. I've got a plan already. Oh, I like it. I'm right ahead. I'm impressed. You bring out the best in him. That's the great thing. We'll see you next time for episode 17. Cheers.