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You’re tired.
Not just physically; though yeah, that too.
You’re tired in your bones. In your soul.
Trying to be a steady husband, an intentional dad, a man of God… but deep down, you feel like you’re falling short. Like you’re carrying more than you know how to hold.
Dad Tired is a podcast for men who are ready to stop pretending and start healing.
Not with self-help tips or religious platitudes, but by anchoring their lives in something (and Someone) stronger.
Hosted by Jerrad Lopes, a husband, dad of four, and fellow struggler, this show is a weekly invitation to find rest for your soul, clarity for your calling, and the courage to lead your family well.
Through honest stories, biblical truth, and deep conversations you’ll be reminded:
You’re not alone. You’re not too far gone. And the man you want to be is only found in Jesus.
This isn’t about trying harder.
It’s about coming home.
My friend who's not very verbally affirming, she was really mad 'cause her husband was constantly traveling. She had three little kids, three little girls. So she's decided to start doing a journal and her prayer was, God, show me all the things that he's doing right and well. And before she would say like, oh, he didn't make it to the soccer game till the last period, and easily so late, but now she changed, started changing her focus.
She gives him this journal, this cool journal for his birthday, and he sits down in the chair and there's just these little excerpts in the book for the year. Not a ton. Mm-hmm. But she just captures the things that he's doing well, and he sat and he cried the entire time, just cried. We asked him like, what made you cry?
And he said. Because I'm not that guy. I feel like I'm horrible. I feel like I'm constantly failing, and her words make me wanna be better.
If you're listening to today's episode by yourself, I implore you. To send it to your spouse, um, as much as I can without getting awkward and begging you throughout the whole episode. I just kept thinking like, every couple should listen to this together, at least separately, and then come back and have a good conversation about it.
Um, it's just a really, really fun interview, um, and helpful and just like. Um, just please send it to your spouse if you feel awkward about that. Like you're, you're trying to give them a subtle message or like, be passive aggressive. Don't just say, Hey, Jared sent, told me to send this me, um, this podcast to you.
And so I haven't even listened to it yet. I'm just starting it. But I thought we could talk about this later or tonight. I. After the kids go to bed or whatever. Um, before we jump into this very helpful and awesome interview, I do wanna thank my friends over at Dwell Bible for sponsoring today's episode.
I'm so thankful for our sponsors who carry us through and provide awesome products and resources for you as the dad. Tired listeners, all of us make excuses about why we're not in the word enough. Um, I told you guys a couple weeks ago that I'm on a unofficial four year. Bible plan and um, it's not like a real plan, it's just my way of staying in the word daily.
I just try to do one chapter a day, and that feels sustainable to me. If I try to like go Bible in six months or bible in a year, I often fall off, or I feel like I'm just doing a checklist and I like read stuff, but I'm not retaining any of it. So in order for me to just spend like quality time with the Lord, I'm not putting.
Weird or hard expectations on myself. I'm just reading one chapter a day, but one of the main ways that I do that is through the Bible app or the Dwell Bible app. And, um, I think they're one of the best out there. They're, they really put listening first, which for me, uh, I'm a listen, like I'm an auditory learner.
I. You probably are too, which is why you're listening to podcasts. Um, so the, and some bible apps, like when you listen to it, it can feel a little bit robotic. Their voices are not robotic. In fact, in some ways it's kind of therapeutic. You can add background music, you can pick the voice, you can pick the translation.
I. They just do such a good job at making it really, really easy to listen to the Bible, and that's just one of the many, many features that they have on their app. So if you feel like you are struggling to get in the word and you wanna start up again, or you just wanna make that habit more consistent, definitely check out the Dwell Bible app.
If you go to dwell bible.com/dad Tire, they have an exclusive discount just for you as our dad. Tired listeners. That being said, let's jump into today's episode, Dave and Anne Wilson. Uh, you guys aren't just guests. You have become now friends for, uh, many years now. We've, we've had a chance to spend some time together and, uh, I've had a chance to go on your show and talk about stuff at Dad Tired, and you've been here and helped, um, our listeners be encouraged.
Um, for those who may have missed those times that you've been on our show before, can you just catch us up? Tell us who you are and what you're up to these days. Who are we, we're friends of Jared. Jared Let us, gives us, that, gives us, uh, you know, like a big promo. Let us just say, every time we're with you and you're on with us when you leave, we say We love him.
We love him so much. Wow. And you're making, and I hate to say it, we don't say that about everybody that comes on. Let's go through name. Hopefully they're not listening by. Yeah. Let's go through name by name. They're all like, who's in and who's out? No, we do say that We love you and what you do. And dad tired.
It is. Mm-hmm. Just a blessing. Yeah. Um, short story for us is, um. Married, uh, be 45 years in May. Dang. Which is crazy. Yeah. Almost lost our marriage at year 10. That was when our book Vertical Marriage was sort of about that journey and how going vertical saved our marriage. That book. Oh, that one? Mm-hmm. And then we wrote the other one about being parents and our three sons wrote in the book and basically said you guys were pretty bad parents.
So he did not say that. You gotta call it no perfect parents. He didn't say that. Well, we were, but we felt that a lot of times. I think most parents. Feel like they're failing. And so, oh yeah, we, we wrote kind of some of that and even some helpful things that we learned through our failures in parenting and through some of our victories.
Yeah. And, and, uh, the bio includes, uh, planted a church in 1990 and was there 30 years with a couple other co-founders and, uh. And then we went on, uh, with Family Life Today, and we host their podcast radio broadcast. Mm-hmm. And Dennis Rainey and Bob Lapin had on air for 35 years, I think. Then Dave was the chaplain for the Detroit Lions first.
Oh, let's tell 'em everything. 33 years. 33 years in the most losses in NFL history. Hey, but go ahead. What's your greatest, your greatest victory and failure is? You're quarterbacking in high school. High school. Oh yeah. Do you know this, you know this about Ben. I, I feel, uh, maybe catch me up. I mean, you and Ben are, Ben Berg are friends.
Yeah. Um, I held all the records at Finley High School. Yeah. As a quarterback for decades. And then this guy named Ben Rothberg comes through. He doesn't, he doesn't break records. He shatters them, you know? But he felt pretty good about yourself till Ben came along. I did. I still have one record that he did not break.
Oh, what is it? It still stands longest Touchdown Pass thrown in a semi-final playoff game in Ohio for 97 yards. So I hold the record for the longest touchdown ever thrown. But it is funny, Jared, whenever I say this on stage, sometimes fun people clap and then I go, it was an interception. Oh my god. Yeah.
We were playing the number one team in the nation at the time called Cincinnati Moler. And uh, we lost that game and lost the state championship and, um. Yeah, I still have this record. Wait, so they, they, can they consider that a competition? That's what I said. Just that's not a, that's not a touchdown pass.
But, you know, it's fun to share because Ben, Ben didn't break that record, which is a good one. Wait, I'm still kinda confused though. You threw, they caught it and then it was a pick six. Pick six. And they counted that. They put that in your, like as a. Well, her dad was like the commissioner of the league. He goes, Hey, by the way, that's a state record.
I'm like, that'll ever go down. I don't think it's ever got, I appreciate you giving the clarity and caveat there. 'cause it's much, it, it speaks to your humility. Well, you know, you know when I, sometimes I'll share a stage, Hey, I still hold this record and people start clapping, I think, do they think I'm that arrogant That you would share?
That I would share a high school record. Who cares about high school anyway, you know, but, uh. People think you're gonna share all your stuff. Like, wow, I was a good high school player. I mean, hopefully I was a better college player. Well, I, I do want to get into the book and all the good stuff, but while we're talking about football, did your, did the lion start doing well once you left?
Yeah. You know, you're the first person that's ever asked me that, Jared. I mean, 30 years. 30 years is a long time. And then all of a sudden they, they jumped, we had one playoff win in 33 seasons, man. And I think they had two, two years ago. And they had, anyway, um, no, they actually didn't do well for a while.
Um, okay, so little, which Dave was actually secretly happy. I was like, it wasn't me. And then, uh, you know, Dan Campbell came in and we knew Dan when he was a player. He played for the Lions and Ann knew his wife. We had a Bible study and. His wife, uh, Ann had a wide study, so we knew them well. And actually this year they don't have a chaplain anymore, but they have a, a, a character coach.
Mm. And so spiritual sort of comes under him and he's pretty busy guy with other stuff. So he reached out at the beginning of the season, said, would you and Anne lead a marriage study for the team? Oh, that's cool. So we did this year on Monday nights with a former player, a kicker named Jason Hansen, his wife.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And we're gonna do it again next season. So if they get to the Super Bowl and win, are, are we doing it again? We're doing it again next season. I'm, I'm hanging around until I get real ring. Feels real life marriage con. Yeah. There you go. This feels like a real life marriage conflict. Maybe we need to dive in.
Yes. Welcome to our marriage. Yeah. Are we doing it? She actually said this year when they called, why am I telling you this? But she said. We're not doing this right. I go, I think 'cause we're so busy, I think we should do it. She goes, is it just because they're winning? And I go, yep. That's why. Hundred percent.
Why? That's why he said it. Totally redeemed yourself. Um, before we dive into New book, which I, I'm very excited to talk about, um, can you catch our listeners up? I think we had you on to talk about vertical marriage. Mm-hmm. Um, but. For those who miss that. And because of my terrible memory, can you catch me up on the 10 years where that, where your things almost failed?
And the reason I want to highlight that is 'cause I know there are a lot of guys listening, especially recently we've been talking a lot about healing and Guy. Mm-hmm. Like just guys feeling their own brokenness. Um, and we actually do have a lot of marriages who. Honestly feel like they're on the rocks.
Yeah, sure. So can you tell us your story at 10 years? What happened there? Yeah, I mean, I can start, but it, it's, you know, I'd love to hear Anne's, we've said it many times since then, but you know, when you talk now about that, Jared, the healing part, I didn't know it then, was sort of the reason it happened.
I hadn't healed. And again, I'm still in process. Neither, neither had I, you know, 40 some years later. We are still in process of healing, but I had trauma. From my family of origin that I had never processed two alcoholic parents drunk pretty much every night. Dad has girlfriends and mistresses and then, um, ends up divorced when I'm a little boy.
I'm seven, my little brother's five. I had two older brothers and sister, 10, 12, 13 years older. Um, you know, so I ended up with a single mom and then my brother dies of leukemia within the same year. Um, and again. YI just moved on. I'm an escape guy. I, I escape. That's how I deal with. And, and so is your family trauma, your family never talked about it?
Our family never talked about it. It was just done in the past. Uh, I, uh, ended up, uh, having some athletic, uh, skills and music skills. So I was in a band and I was in every sport, football, basketball, baseball. And so then got a college scholarship and I didn't realize it at the time, but I'm running away.
Yeah. When I sat down with a counselor. Years ago, he had my whole life on a board and he, at the end, after five hours, he said, here's your homework. Go home and I wanna talk to you next week. Answer this question. What are you running from? And I look at this guy. And I literally go, what are you talking about?
I don't what? And he looks at, he just goes like this. He looks at the board and he goes, you don't see this? Mm. And I, I'll never forget Jared. I look at him, I go, well, you are, you're the therapist. Just tell me you already know. He goes, no, you gotta discover this. I come home and I say to Anne, he said, what are you running from?
She's like, duh, I've been trying to tell you this, this whole life, telling you this, our whole marriage. And I didn't realize I was running toward. When I perform, I'm accepted and loved. Mm. When I excel, I'm valuable. And so I'm on stages. You know, I'm behind a mic like you are doing. Mm-hmm. I'm writing books.
Uh, he even said to me, this guy goes, Hey, I don't even know, but let me guess. I go, what? He goes football quarterback? Yeah. Basketball point guard. Yeah. Baseball shortstop, pitcher. Yeah. He goes, well, some of that's athletic skill. He goes, do you realize what those all have in common? I go, what's that? He goes, the game's in your hand.
The ball's always in your hand. Yeah. You play well, you win, you put don't play well. You, you, your team probably would've, doesn't win. I go, yeah, I felt that pressure every, and he goes, you love the spotlight, but the spotlight is what you're running to and you're running away from the hard stuff, which is your marriage.
And so when Anne said, on our 10 year anniversary. I've lost my feelings for you. And again, it's a long story. We're in a car, well, wait, wait, wait. Let me go back to mine because I knew Dave, we knew each other growing up. My dad was his baseball coach. Um, my brothers played with him, but I thought, poor Dave, he's got such a terrible background and family thing.
Everybody knew that his dad was gone, but we also knew he was really gifted. Um, so I come from a family where. They were incredibly kind. They're good. They weren't Christian people, but they were all about performance. I was a gymnast for years and my family was all about like, if we had an idol, it would've been sports.
I was gonna be a coach too. My brothers were all going. They all did become coaches. And so I came home from a huge gymnastics. Me. I did. I felt like it was one of my first big ones and I had a fourth in the all around and I thought, man, I'm doing really good. I'm getting better. And my, this was the whole state of Ohio.
Yeah, it was a really big deal. Yeah. And my dad said, I said, dad, did you see this? I had medaled in every event. He said, Hey, we're the barons. We are winners, and if you can't come home with the first place, don't come home at all. Wow. And I was, I think I was not, I think I was 11. And man, you talk about pressure, so now everything is about competition and I have the sexual abuse and I also, even though I was the youngest, everybody else was more important.
They were just flying hard with all the other kids. And I get that now, but they didn't even know what I was doing or what was going on, or didn't pay much attention. And so. My need was, and my healing was, do you see me? Like, are you here for me? Are you listening to me? And so you take those two wounds from Dave's side and my side, he's out here getting all the tension and glory and I'm saying, are you here?
Are you seeing me? So on our 10 year anniversary, basically you can take it from there. I mean, it's, it's a long story. So I'll just say. I honestly, I've said this, I, if you had asked me the day before, how's your marriage scale, one to 10? I am not kidding. I would've said, oh, we're 10. If we're not a 10, we're close.
We're 9, 8, 9, 9. And I would've said we're a one, probably more like a 0.5. And I thought the reason he thinks we're so good is because he doesn't even know what's going on or care because he's out here. Yeah. So there was a lot of resentment on that. And again, all that backstory we just gave you, we had never even thought through.
Never, never processed any of that back then. And so you may you hear that story and you're like, oh, duh. There it is. Dave's conquering the world. He's not starting a church, he's starting a mega. It's gotta be big and it's gotta be mega. And so I'm loving life. You know, everybody's clapping and saying, you're great.
And Ann's back there with three little boys and not any attention from me. I'm just like, you're good. Right. You have to be good 'cause my life is important. Mm-hmm. I got responsibilities that are important and I have like six jobs. I even was even coaching high school football. I. Oh, but you were also playing basketball.
Yeah. Okay. We don't need all that. And football, like just for fun and base softball. And why was I doing that? Because people said I was good. Yeah. It was so about me. And so when she said, I've lost my feelings for you, I had no idea the best thing that happened that night instead of getting defensive like I normally did.
Well, and let me just add too, when I said, like I said, I have nothing. Mm-hmm. I don't even think. I don't even know if we're gonna make it. 'cause I have absolutely no feelings. I don't even care if we make it at this point in our marriage. Wow. And so I thought Dave's gonna get really mad and angry and defensive, but instead because I usually did.
That was our pattern. And now I know I was getting mad and defensive. 'cause you're messing up my life. Mm-hmm. You're supposed to just be good. Mm-hmm. So I can do what God's God's called me to do. I can throw the God thing on it. Like this is God's thing. And um, that night. When she said that, you know, I, I asked, I said three words that we say all the time.
Every husband should say to his wives regularly. Tell me more. Mm, tell me more. Just instead of getting defensive and just say, tell me more. What, what do you mean you've lost your feelings? So she walks through the last six, seven months of our marriage and said, you know, I was bitter and mad and angry, and.
I'm now, I'm numb, I don't care. And I'm like, oh my goodness. And again, it's such a long story, but what happened is I sensed the spirit of God speaking to me and said one word, repent. And he said it three times and it was interesting in, in that interaction. Again, I'm listening to Anne, so there's this horizontal thing going on.
She doesn't even know. I'm feeling like God is speaking to me. Mm. And it's one word, and I know in one word what he means. There was not this long explanation. I knew he was saying, if you think you're gonna save this marriage on a horizontal plane, it's not gonna happen. Mm. You need to put me back in control.
I wasn't immoral sin. I wasn't walking away. I was just lukewarm. I was doing ministry out of, um. What's the word? I mean, I, I got good at it. Yeah. I could do it. Yeah. And it didn't matter if I was in the word or not. I could open the up the Bible and you're just on autopilot. I was on autopilot. I'd learned how to, and people would go, Hey, that was, you know, that was really good.
And I feel good and get in the car and then come home and then we'd be yelling at each other. 'cause here I am again. You don't think I'm great. And they do. So see you later. I'm gonna go back out there. Yeah. But that night God said, repent and he said, put me back in control. And if you do, this, marriage has a chance.
This is not about this, this is about this. And I did, I, she didn't know what was going on, but I just said, Hey, um, I need to hear more from you. And it was so interesting, but I need to pray right now. You don't. I do. When he started praying on his knees. That night, if you would've asked me before dinner, before we went out that night, Hey, what's the problem with your marriage?
I would've said, it's him. Yeah. Yeah. If he would just get his act together, we could be great. And so when he started praying that prayer, I was incredibly convicted because I felt like God was saying, Anne, you've taken your eyes off of me, and you've put him on Dave wanting him to bring you happiness. Hmm.
He was never made equipped. And he isn't capable of making you happy. That's my job. Hmm. You know, like he is gonna bring happiness, but if my total contentment is based on him, that's an idol. And so I got on my knees in the car too, prayed that same prayer, um, and we kind of rededicated our marriage to Jesus.
And that was at the beginning of a journey. Um, and it was only a beginning. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it was a good beginning. Some people can hear that and go, oh, I just need to pray this prayer, and poof, everything changes. No, that was the beginning. I had to, it's the beginning of hard work. Had to do some soul searching about what, you know, I just said it's like, man, I've got some real insecurities in here, and I would've told you I'm the most in, I'm the most secure guy ever.
You know, I, I'm, I'm an accomplished. I was so insecure. I still am. So am I. It's just like we long for people's approval and validation and I was running away from it, so it was like do the hard, like you said, heal. Yeah. It was a long healing process that God needed to heal our marriage, but he also had to heal us individually so that we could come to our marriage with something to give, rather than always being a taker.
I think that's what we usually tell Premar couples or even couples early in their first years of marriage. We're like, man, marriage tools and tips are really good, but you need to do some inner stuff, inner healing stuff of being set free from all the lies of your past so that you can walk in freedom and love each other without all these strings attached.
Yeah, and sometimes your spouse isn't willing to do that, but you can do it, and that makes a big difference even if you just do it. I was talking to a friend yesterday and we were talking about how this soul work is so exhausting. You know, it's just so exhausting and you, there's a part of all of us that are just like, can't I just live my life?
Yeah. And in some ways you like, especially it sounds like you, Dave, you were like, I'm living my life and it's actually going great. Yeah. You know, you were totally naive to what Ann was feeling, but you just felt like I'm, why would I slow down and do soul work when I'm, when we're fine. I got a 10 outta 10 marriage, you know, I'm successful and all this stuff, but it just.
It always bleeds out. It just always bleeds out. And it's so frustrating the way that God set that up, the kingdom, everything in darkness, it's going to come to light. Yeah. It's going to find a way to bleed out. Yep. Um, and so yeah, just, I, it's, it's exhausting. I don't want to, I, I never want to like, come across on the podcast where I'm just like, well, just.
Do a couple counseling sessions and pray and you'll be great. You know, it's so hard. It's so hard. And this is why our soul is long for Jesus to come and make all things new. I know. Because it's just like, man, this is hard, hard work. But because we all have places that we wanna hide Yeah. That bring us instant relief.
Every single person has those places that are usually dangerous. Yeah. And they're not healthy or good. Yeah. And man, it's hard to reveal those too. Yeah. To each other. To other people. To yourself. Yes. Yeah. Thank you guys for being honest. I think it's so relatable. And, and the fact that you're, what, 30 years removed from that?
Yeah. Yeah. That, that particular season and just continuing to find healing. But I mean, just speaks to your faithfulness and um, and God's faithfulness. And our brokenness. And your brokenness. Yeah. But God's faithfulness to you. I was thinking too yesterday, like. Um, you know, it's the renewing of your mind, and that's not like a, like you were saying, Dave, not just this overnight thing, but it's just like this constant renewing, constant, constant renewing.
Yeah. And God, he will complete what he started. But that's like a, a new phrase I keep saying is decade o decades over days. You know, it's like, yeah. It's, it's renewing. It's the, it's him completing the work over decades. Not like a, a one day I listened to this podcast and I'm healed, or I prayed one time and I'm healed.
It's just this long. Sometimes it feels so mundane and slow, but God is doing a work. He is faithful to complete. What he started, that verse that you just quoted? Romans 12, two. That's one of my favorite verses. Romans 12, one and two. They are my favorite verses. I talk about that too in this new book because it feels like that's the part that we will conform to the world.
If we don't transform and have the renewing of our mind, and man, that is not easy to do. I talk about, like, I think I'm reading, I'm, I've been going through the one year Bible. I think I'm on year 18 or 19. Wow. And the reason I do it, it's not because I'm super spiritual, it's because my mind. Has to be renewed by the word every single day.
Yeah. Or because I just drift off and within three days of not being in the word I'm a mess. Mm-hmm. Like I look at Dave and I think he's the problem, and I think all these other things are gonna make me happy. And it just makes you understand like, man, that renewal process is a daily habit. Mm-hmm. If it's not the word, it's just asking God to take all of us and re surrender everything.
Yeah. Yeah. I had a pastor one time tell me, you know, you, he would tell the congregation that we never drift toward God. We always just drift away. Yes. Our natural inclination is never gonna, you're never gonna wind up feeling close to God. Yes. Same with our marriages. Yeah. We naturally just drift away. Mm.
Yeah. You have to work toward oneness, but this is natural. You drift. I mean, when couples do that, they shouldn't be shocked. They'd be like, that's natural. Yeah. So how are we gonna get here? How are we gonna get back here? It's work. It's really hard work. It should be so intentional. Yeah. The, the title of your new book, it's like, when you first read it, it's kind of comical how to speak life to your husband.
Mm-hmm. And the subtitle is what's funny when all you wanna do is yell at him. And it's funny at first, but you're like, there's actually, I think this is a very big, this is like a real problem. You know, this is a real thing. And you, you guys alluded to it, um, in, in just telling your stories, but I was literally probably 30 minutes ago.
Um, I was talk, I was hearing we've used this app called Marco Polo. Me and my buddy who live on the West coast so we can catch up and talk to each other and, uh, he was telling me how. Um, now I'm going, I'm stumbling over my words 'cause I'm like, now I just revealed potentially his identity and I, I'm about to say something vulnerable, what he said.
But, uh, I have so many friends on Marco Polo, there's no way you'll ever know who I'm talking about. Um, is my caveat here. Anyway, he was saying, you know, it's hard for men to, if you feel like at home, your wife is just, she doesn't like you. She's critical of you as a husband, as a man. It makes sense why many men would choose to say like, I'm not, I'm not in a rush to get home after work.
I'm gonna go hang out in the garage with my buddies. I'm gonna go find all these other hobbies. It, it, it speaks a lot to Dave, what you were saying. Like, I'll, I'll go find places where people will applaud me and pat me on the back and tell me I'm doing a good job. So I think, you know, even the, the subtitle of your book, it's, you know, we laugh at it, but it's like, that's a very real thing.
A lot of guys really feel that, and a lot of wives feel like. Well step it up. Like I don't wanna always yell at you, but get your act together, you know? So anyway, before I go on too long, Anne, like tell us your heart behind the book and, and what you're hoping to accomplish through it. We probably, I think we've been speaking around the country on marriage for or 35 years and man, this is a thing.
We as women and wives are really so often dissatisfied with our husbands and we think, this is what I thought. It's our job to, to change them. And so really what happened, this was several years after our 10 year anniversary, um, and it, and it's really common for marriages to be, to go into peaks and valleys.
And so we did pretty well after that 10 year. But then again, we hit this slump. Our kids started getting really busy in school and, um. We were asked, I was asked to speak to a group of women at our church, and I was at a really hectic time in our marriage and life, and I said, Dave, you should come with me.
Like the women will love it if you come. You're the pastor. They're gonna be so thankful. So he's like, yeah, I'd totally do that with you. So he gets in there and I, I had said before we did it, like, what do you wanna talk about? He goes, I don't know, let's just wing it. Which is, he's so comfortable with that.
And I go, okay. And so. We get in there and he starts sharing this story that I had never heard him say with me anywhere in my life. Go ahead, Cheryl. Say what you said. I mean, actually I don't think I'd ever said it and I No, you hadn't ever said it. I started telling this thing. It's just exactly what you just said, Jared.
I. And when I'm saying it, it's like, oh, this is exactly how it feels as a man. So I felt really good. Like I've never articulated it like this. This is bold. Yeah. All I said was like, Hey ladies, I don't know if you understand, but you know, for us as little boys, we usually have somebody that cheers for us.
You know, it's either our mom or dad or then, you know, it could be a teacher, uh, it could be a coach. Uh, you know, you grow up and you get good at certain things and somebody's applauding you and saying, you're good at this. And I, you know, I played college football, so I had people on Saturday saying, you're amazing.
And then I meet Anne and she basically says, of all the men in the world, I choose you. You're amazing. You're the man. I'm like, yeah. And I'm sitting on the stool and Dave now is up. He's, he's like in it. He's preaching, he's talking and I'm thinking, huh. I have never thought of this before. That's so interesting that that, yeah.
Even me choosing him, he felt like, you know, yeah, I'm the man and I'm like, this is really good. So she's back on this stool and I'm up in the front of the stage now, and then I go, and then we get married and we come home and all we hear is. Boo boo and I turn and look and she is like, I get the look, oh my gosh, like you are a dead man.
I don't even know how we ended that thing. We get in the car and I'm like, you think I'm booing you? I am helping you. Like, I am so passionate about this. She's yelling it. And I remember I look back and we're driving home and I go. Well, do you think it's working? And I go, no, it's not working. Hmm. So I have to do it more often.
I have to do it louder. And he, and, and this is what Dave said, he goes, I don't know. It just feels like I can't do anything, right? Mm. You have to tweak it. You have to fix it. You have to tweak me. He goes, it just feels like you think I suck. Hey guys, I hope you're getting as much out of this interview as I am, uh, while I'm having this conversation the whole time.
Like I said, many times throughout today's episode, like I feel like every couple needs to listen to this. It's so good and there's a lot of good stuff to come on the back half, so don't go anywhere. Just wanna remind you guys that last year, at the end of last year, normally we would do. Our fundraising for the year.
I was out doing my own healing journey. I was often an intensive and so we did not do any fundraising. I know so many of you, um, have been impacted by kind of this new season or new mission of dat Tired, which is strong families begin with healed men, and there's some of you who have started to find healing and you're like, dude, I was not the husband or the man or the dad.
That I knew I could be until I started to find healing. And so you are passionate about that. Or you're a guy who's like, I know that I'm not healed and I really need healing. Wherever you are on that spectrum, if you believe in that mission, like I really do believe I. That in order to be and to lead a strong family, I have to be healed.
We're asking you humbly to partner with us. We are supported. We are a nonprofit, so we are supported by your donations. If you want to link arms with us and partner with us to keep this podcast going along with other resources, the retreat and online resources and free groups and things like that, we would love to have you partner with us.
You can do that by going to dad tire.com. Click the donate tab and you can jump in to partner with us in that way. Alright, let's jump into the interview again. Yeah. I'll tell you right during that time too, I was going to a, a buddy's dad's funeral in, in Memphis, Tennessee. And so I'm in a car with four or five guys I do life with.
We've been in a small group together for almost 10 years at that time, and I'm not getting, I'm driving and I say, Hey, I got, I got two questions for you guys. Number one. Do you feel like your wife loves you? I know all their wives. I know their families. I know all their kids. Mm-hmm. Do you feel like your wife loves you?
Every guy within a second. Yep. I said, let me ask you this. Do you feel like your wife likes you? Every guy within a second? Nope. Wow. Every guy. Wow. And then you know, why, why, why do you think? And they're all like, why you asking? And I go. Because I feel the same way. I feel like Anne loves me. She's not leaving me.
She's in a marriage covenant with me to the, but she's always fixing me and critiquing me. And it's like I'm a fixer upper project and I don't think she really likes me. Hmm. And I didn't know if that was just our marriage. And I found out, wow, a lot of guys feel that way. And I know it goes both ways.
Guys do it to their wives too. But that's what she, but, but generally speaking, this is what I've seen, and this doesn't happen in every case, but a lot of cases women, we can tend to be very verbal about what we think our husbands need to do to change. And if we don't verbalize it, because some of us are more inward processors.
But we'll stuff it down inside and then men can feel, our husbands can feel our way of being. Yeah. They can feel when we're disappointed. Yeah. Or we're, we're just kind of mad or whatever. But Dave, he almost never would say to me anything negative. Like when he said that, I thought, why didn't you tell me this?
I didn't say it to him because I was too prideful. I'm thinking, why didn't you say this a long time ago? We'd been married like 15 years at that point. Yeah, why didn't I, why didn't you? In some ways I just withdrew, you know? And I'm not saying I'm like every guy, but some guys are wired like me and I just sort of withdrew and you know, when I said, is it working?
I really meant like it's not working. Right. And this book and gets into basically the, the, the foundation is women. You have power. Yeah. God has gifted you as an Azer Cano. She gets into what that means in Genesis, that helper suitable, you are a powerful person, yet has influence on your man and your kids and and, and other areas.
But man, you can use that power to destroy him. Yeah. Or lift him up. And you know, I think what Anne thought was her critique is gonna make me better. I thought it would motivate him. Like, I'll show you how great I am. Hmm. And it had the opposite effect. Now some men probably are motivated by that. Mine was like, okay, I'll go out, I'll go back to work.
I don't, I mean. You know, I don't know any men who are motivated by it. Yeah. Really? Yeah. Yeah. I, I think that it just, it's defeating like it just, yeah. I know so many guys who feel defeated by it. Yeah. And I think, I didn't realize, I thought Dave, everybody thinks he's amazing and he's got a whole Church of Congress.
Oh, Dave, you're amazing. I thought he doesn't need mine. And then I had this other like, weird thought of like, if I praise him, then he'll think I'm really happy and satisfied, and then it will enable him. To stay where he is. I mean, that is so messed up in my thinking, but it's exactly why I didn't, everybody else is doing it, not realizing my words were way more powerful than anybody else's words.
Yeah. I, I have to pause you there because we we're, we're trying to, Layla and I are doing these like, uh. Several check-ins a week with each other. Yeah. And we go through this kind of template to go through these check, uh, this check-in. And one of the, the check-in sections is affirmations. You give each other an affirmation.
Yes. And Layla has such a hard time with affirmations like giving me affirmations. Yeah. I always make fun of I wish you were here, sitting here. Uh, because she, she will say, um, when it's her turn to give me an affirmation, she will state a historical fact. So she'll say something like. You made dinner last night.
And I'm like, okay. And she's like, and she just looks at me like, you know, don't you get what I'm saying? I'm like, no. What are you saying? She's like. Okay. I, I guess I'm thankful that you made dinner last night. Thank you. I appreciate, you know, she can't, like, it is so hard for her to get it out and I, I asked her about it.
I'm like, why do you think it's so hard for you to give me an affirmation? I said, do you think Yeah, because that's crushing to you. It's crushing to me and I'm a words of affirmation guy, so yes. And she, Dave is too, but that's where she says like, I don't want to enable. Yes. It's like, yes, okay. And speak to it.
Give her some language, help give us some language. 'cause she's like, I don't want to fuel this monster in you where you always need affirm affirmation. And that is exactly where we were. I didn't give it to him. He was getting it so many other places. And so, and I, Jared, I couldn't do it at first either.
It sounds so messed up, but I felt like he didn't deserve it. Which like even that, so now I've put him on the performance track. Mm. Hey, if you perform better, then I will give you some words and. And our covenant that we make with one another, the vow that we make is unconditional. And so I had to start with thank yous.
It's the only place. And when I went to God, I said to God, when I came home from that car trip and our speaking, I came home to God to I came home, invented to God. God, can you believe what he said? Can you believe that is so awful? And it's okay to vent to God. He wants us to talk to him about it. But then I was wise in this one thing that I said is I said, God.
Do you think I boo Dave? Mm man. And in my spirit I felt like start, yes, start, start keeping track of what goes through your mind of what's in your head. And man, I did that for a week. I was not only critiquing Dave in my head, I was critiquing our kids, our life, everything. And so, you know, this probably, but there's, when they've studied the brain now and the neurological pathways that we form, we get in this rut and we, so I see.
The negative in Dave. And then I say the negative, and that's the rut that I went down every time. So to be able to say something positive, I hadn't done that in so long. I don't, it's a path you've never cleared. Never cleared. You never cleared that path. Yeah. And so I had to start with saying thank you, and here's why I didn't say thank you.
This is so messed up too. Why should I thank him for taking the garbage out? Because I do everything around here and nobody thanks me. Do you see the pridefulness in, in that even? Mm. And man, the enemy is just doing anything to rip us apart. Mm. So it started out with, thank you. And there was this one time we're eating at the dinner table, and I'm begging God, and now I'm in the word like, Lord, I can't do this without you.
I need you. And so I'm praying like, here's my prayer. God, show me the greatness in Dave. Mm. That started changing everything because God does that. He answers that prayer, and I feel bad about this because. I've had so many wives come up to me and say, there's nothing great. Like I don't see anything that he's doing that I can compliment him on.
And I'll say like, he's made in God's image and you chose him for a reason when you first got married. So look back to those things and ask God to show you the greatness. 'cause we're made in the image of God. So there's things about our spouse that are incredible and this goes both ways. And so I, and let me add at the same time, and we try to say this about every fourth or fifth page in the book.
Yes. If your man's an abusive man. Mm-hmm. And he's an evil, he's really harming you. Get out, don't speak life. He is like, oh, he's supposed to speak life. Yeah, yeah. No, he's made the image of God, you gotta love him and forgive him eventually, but you gotta get safe first. He's the most loving thing you can do.
So this is a good-willed man. But he's like me. He's clueless. He just we're clueless. Talk about the dinner table. Yeah. Well first, first of, before you get into the story, I just wanna pause right here and say, for every one of you listening right now, if you're a husband. Tell, just send this immediately to your wife.
Send this podcast immediately to your wife right now. Yeah. And just say, Jared told me I have to send this to you so you don't you don't have to put it on yourself. Yeah. Just say, Jared said, I have to send you this podcast. 'cause this is, I feel like every, even so far in our conversation, every couple needs to listen to this together.
But go ahead Dave. What was the story? Well, and let me add this too, Jared. Um, I use this illustration like a plant of chopping a plant with our on a stage. And I've had, after I show this, it's like we as women, we think that we're gonna. Help our men by critiquing or showing the things that they're doing wrong.
Chopping off the chopping off brown leaves, chop off all of the leaves, and pretty soon there's nothing left of the man because we've chopped everything off of him. Hmm. And I have had grown men. One guy was in his seven sobbing. On my shoulder. Mm. Because, and I'll say like, what's going on? He's like, I have been shopped my whole life, but they've never said anything.
Mm. And I don't think we get it as women. We, because we truly think we're, we're trying to help them. And we are thinking like, I've got what it takes to help you. I'm gonna point out the things that you need to fix. Not realizing that that's not fixing you. It's doing more harm than good. And, and I just wanna say, Dave, I don't know if you relate to this, but.
For all the ways that we are getting applause elsewhere. Nothing hits. Like when my wife applaud me. Nope. When I know that she, nothing, when I, when I, when she looks at me with that like pride, nothing hits like that. And that's what I really want, you know, and I'm sure we could, and all of our sin and mess, we can distort that and tangle all that in ways, but man, I, there's nothing like my wife's affirmation and love and prayer.
Yeah. I mean, we, we have a story in the book about, um. A Sunday night after a football weekend, which means, you know, I preach at my church a couple times on Saturday, go down to the team hotel and do chapel for the lions Saturday night, come back home, speak three times at church on Sunday, and then go down to the field, Ford Field at a home game, and I'm on the sideline.
Then I come home and I'm, you know, it's a long weekend. I'm exhausted and I crawl in bed at like 1130 that night just wanting to go to sleep. But I say out loud, I go, man. I am getting a lot of critiques lately on my sermons. You know, back then we had this card you could write prayer requests on and people would write critiques on instead, anonymously.
Yeah. You know, and so that's all I said is just, you know, and, and I just was laying every side, Ann and I sort of threw that out to her. Oh dear. This is so embarrassing. I'm a verbal processor. So I have been on this journey just for a few months of God transforming the way I, what I say and what I think.
Yeah. Her words did not change in a day. No, it took a while, but they started changing over months. So I started getting into a habit of asking God, I'm, because I can respond so quickly, so I asked God, God, should I say it? That's the first thing I ask. God, should I say it? Say what? Say anything. Anything.
Like if like just what Dave just shared. Should I say anything? Then this next question is if, if it gives me the green light, when should I say it and how should I say it like that? For me, those were some big things and it took self-control 'cause I'm so used to just saying it. So when Dave said, man, I've been getting all these critiques lately.
Here's what came into my head, and I would've said it. I would've said it in a heartbeat. I would've said, man, if you would just spend more time studying the word, I think your sermons would be way better. Hmm. Now. So I ask God, God, should I say it? No. No. So then I said, should I say anything? What should I say?
And this thought came into my mind and this is how the Holy Spirit works. It's just talking to him. Just it takes a second. Mm-hmm. Should I say anything? God, here's what pops into my head and I say it, man, I can't imagine how hard it is to be you. Mm-hmm. You've got thousands of people depending on your walk with God.
That is a heavy thing to carry. Hmm. And then he's, there's quiet, there's no, he says nothing, and then he pulls me over. He hugs me and he whispers in my ear. You are my life. Hmm. Now what if I would've said, if you just get in the weird morning and study, you know, that would've just like, well, yeah, why do I share anything with her?
And you know, the reason I didn't think I'm gonna hold her and say, you are my life. I just did. Yeah. And you know why? It's just what you just said. Yeah. When. Yeah. Comes upal. Just think about it comes to, you know, after a sermon or after a talk and says you're amazing, you smile and say thank you, but you know in your heart they don't know me.
Mm-hmm So the words mean a little bit. You know, I'm around a lot of NFL players and people come up to 'em and they're fans and they smile and they're nice, but they get in the car and they go, yeah, they think I'm amazing 'cause I can run up down a football field. They have no idea. But when your wife who sees all the junk says.
I love you and I think you're a good man. It's powerful. And that's what the book is like, ladies, that's. What God's given you power and I, you know, I don't think I've ever understood it, but men don't change through critique, but they do change through praise. Mm-hmm. And so I started becoming a better man and husband and dad and grandfather, all because she believed in me, not 'cause she tried to change me.
She started saying, you are good. I'm like, no I'm not. You've never said that before. Are you lying right now? What is happening? But over time it is like she started to say it more and more and more. Instead of yelling, started speaking life. I'm, I'm running home. I'm like, I gotta go guys. I gotta go home till this woman who thinks I'm amazing.
Yeah. Rather than I'm gonna spend more time on the basketball court in this meeting, I. Because you guys think I'm amazing. I think she does. I think our biggest probably, this is where I critique Dave the most, was probably how he was leading spiritually in our home. I just had, and I get into the book about expectation and where do, where do all my expectations come from?
A lot of that stuff. But I remember thinking like, man, and I would compare him to people. Hmm. Like, Hey, you know our friend Steve, he reads the Bible every night. Did he freaking Steve, dude, tell that guy that kill away. That really worked. Get that out of our lives. Exactly. And I thought, I totally thought it would motivate him, but I had an idea of what it should look like for him to spiritually lead and like, why do I think I have the answers anyway?
So I pray that prayer. I keep praying like, Lord, show me the greatness in Dave. This one night he comes in, he's laying in bed with the boys and he's just praying with them. They were toddlers then? They were, no, they were older maybe? No, they were elementary school. Yeah. Okay. Because this happened all in elementary school.
Yeah. But I came out because God had now given me new eyes. I'm seeing things different. And I said to him, man, I'm so jealous of you. And you know, Dave is like, what do you know? He's always fishing a little bit. What do you mean? I said, I'm just jealous. Jealous. Tell me more. Yeah. I'm jealous of the power that you have with our sons.
Like, I sit and talk to 'em all day long and they barely hear anything, but you come in there, you pray with them, and you talk to with them for just a few minutes, and they're clinging to every word that you say. That's, that's pretty powerful. I mean, Jared, you know, as a man, I can, I'm, we're sitting in, uh, used to be a bedroom in our home, still staying home, and that happened right there in the hall, right there.
And I can tell you where I was standing, where she was sitting on the floor. When she said those, that's how powerful words can be when they're life. And you know what happened the next night. You know, bedtime, I'm running upstairs. Hey guys. Yeah, let's go. And she's like, what happened? He's leading spiritually.
I didn't even say anything. All I said was, you have influence in your boys. I'm like, let's go. This one night and this, and this started trickling into our kids too. Like it just started becoming a habit. And that's what happened. I created new neurological pathways mm-hmm. Of seeing the greatness in our sons too.
And I remember, um. Gosh, just makes me teary too. Our youngest son was, uh, 18. He was gonna be in college next year. He had a full ride in football and I remember he was getting ready for bed and he came in to say goodnight into our bedroom. And I remember grabbing him by the shoulders, looking him in the eye and saying, man, I.
I can't wait to see the impact you have next year at college. Like you're a leader, man. You're gonna impact not only your football team, but classmates. I don't even think you understand of what a great leader you are. You draw people to yourself and they wanna follow you. I'm not even sure you get all that yet, and he's like, oh, thanks mom.
You know, whatever. Good night. And in a few minutes he walks back in the room and he's crying, which is unusual for this 18-year-old. And I, I'm like, what happened? He goes, mom, all that stuff you said about me, none of it's true. Mm-hmm. You know? And I'm like, no, it is true. He goes, mom, you know what I did last weekend?
I, I drank for the first time, mom that, and he said, that's who I am. And you don't even know who I am. And as a parent, you always have, you have a choice of like. Are you gonna react? Are you gonna respond? Are you gonna freak out? And I think in that moment, like Dave and I have learned, don't freak out, and I just grabbed him again by the shoulders and I said, no, that may be what you did last weekend, but that is not who you are.
Every one of those things I said is true of who you are. Her and. I don't think we as women understand like how important our words are because we may not be seen, feel seen, or we may feel like we do everything, but man, the power we carry, I can't even explain the power that we carry as women. We were having lunch one time.
Oh, go ahead. No, I'm just, I You get Every time I'm with you guys are making me cry. This is so good. Yeah. No, keep going. The, what was the lunch story? We had you? Yeah. I don't even know. What's the lunch story? You, you've had lunch with us before when you've come on Family life today? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. We have, we have our guests and we have lunch.
And this one lunch we are having, um, I'm gonna see if you know his name. No, I don't. Every time she says, who is that guy? It's in the book. We quote him in the book. No, no. I never remember. No clue. He's hilarious. Okay. He's got a PhD in theology. Is Dr. Jeff Meyers Uhhuh? Yeah. He's. He's phenomenal thinker, but, but I had the lunch and we were talking about Genesis.
When it says in the Bible, when God made Eve, he made her, he made her to be a help helper suitable, and that's always rubbed me wrong as a woman. Like, why do I have to be the little helper? You know? Where's my helper? Why didn't eve get a helper? And so I've just struggled with that. Yeah. And so I was sharing that at lunchtime with all these, there's like four theologians in the room with seminary degrees.
I'm like, so what's, what do you guys think that means in the Hebrew? The helper suitable and the, you know, that's the words are azer, canned, go, which helper? I mean, I'm not gonna get into all of it. I mean, Azer is, God is called our Azer, he's our helper. Mm-hmm. So it's not a demeaning term at all. It's like, and the word the woman's like God in some ways, and the word kgo actually means it's never used in the Bible again, it means to stand toe to toe.
And so I think we as in women, have this choice of when we stand toe to toe. What does that look like? And it's not that we don't speak the truth 'cause I can't help but speak the truth, but the way we speak it is really important. But what's his name again? Jeff Meyers. Jeff said, and I remember as the conversation started, I, I, I started to record it.
I'm like, oh boy, this is rich, this is deep. And we were writing and thinking about this. Yeah. And we're like throwing ideas out and it just started going and, uh, we recorded him saying. You know, keno really means she's a partner and a warrior. Mm-hmm. Who stands toe to toe with you as your adversary, but also as your partner, but also, you know, she can speak life and she can speak, uh, hard things, truth that you need to hear as a soldier in the battle.
And then he said, I think what it really captures is when a man looks into his wife's eyes, wife's eyes, he sees the man he can become. Wow. And when he said that, we're like, there it is. There it is. Often we look in our wife's eyes and we see who she thinks. We haven't measured up all, it's always a disappointment.
We feel like I've let you down. I've disappointed you. My buddies all said she doesn't like me. You know, and, and if she's living out Zer Azer though, it's like, I wanna look in her eyes like you think I can be that guy? Because that's what started happening in our marriage, is she started speaking life and you're a good man and you're a good, and I'm like.
I'm, aren't I? I can do it. You know, and it just made me a better man. And it was like the opposite of what you think, oh, he is gonna get praise and it's gonna enable him to stay. No, actually, it motivates him to be even better. I have never in my life seen or imagined Dave rising up to be the man that he is now.
It's super embarrassing to me because I really thought that my words of critique would motivate him. It's words of praise that motivate our men. Yeah, and And women too. Honestly, it can go either way. Yeah. Ways. I had no idea. I felt like I was powerless and voiceless. No. We as women have so much power and it, it's sad to me because I feel like we're living in a time, we have four grandsons, three sons.
We're living in a time, I feel like we're losing our great men. Mm. Um, because our culture is demeaning them. They're belittling them. They're saying they're not needed. And our men are needed more than ever before. Yeah. We need to stand shoulder to shoulder. And I think we as wives, we need to be reminding our men of like, we need you.
Yeah, we need you in the battle. We need you alongside of us because you have what it takes. My friend who's not very verbally affirming, this was hard for her. She was really mad 'cause her husband was constantly traveling. She had three little kids, three little girls. And I remember we talked about this a lot.
We would walk a lot and pray. And I remember saying, man, you're in the same. Journey I was on a few years ago, and it doesn't help just to constantly critique. It doesn't work. And so she's not as good with her words. So she's decided to start doing a journal. And her prayer was, God, the same thing. Show me all the things that he's doing right and well.
And before she would say like, oh, he didn't make it to the soccer game till the last period, and easily so late, but now she changed, started changing her focus. So one of her entries was like, Hey. Thanks for making it to the soccer game. I'm sure it was really hard to even get there, but you got there.
Thanks for making that a priority. Hey, thanks for putting up the Christmas lights outside when you hate it every year. It's freezing, but you do it just to make me happy and the girls happy. And it's so funny because. Jared, she gives him this journal, this cool journal for his birthday, and he sits down in the chair and there's just these little excerpts in the book for the year.
Not a ton. Mm-hmm. But she just captures the things that he's doing well, and he sat and he cried the entire time. Just cried. And that's, this is Dave's best friend and when. We asked him like, what made you cry? And he said, because I'm not that guy. I feel like I'm horrible. I feel like I'm constantly failing, and her words make me wanna be better.
Yeah. Well, I can't keep going on this interview 'cause I'm just gonna start sobbing and, uh, I need to get through the rest of my day. Holy crap. I cry. I do. So am I, man. Uh, as a listener, obviously, I hope you can, you can tell that Dave and Ann, their humility, their willingness to keep pressing in. Um, clearly all their books are helpful so you see their, if you're watching vertical marriage, here's the new one.
No, no. Perfect parents. And then this one here, we just got it. Oh, sweet. It looks great. How to speak life to your husband when all you want to do is yell at him. You can order it now on Amazon. What's the official release date? I'm sorry for Is it out or does it? Is it May 13th. May, I mean, you can May 13, you can order it now, but yeah, pre-order May 13.
Yeah, you can pre-order now. And then the nice thing about Amazon is it we will give you the lowest price as the price fluctuates. It will, if you order it now, it'll always give you the lowest price at, at any given time before it releases. So make sure you pre-order a copy of that. Now. You guys are amazing.
I love sitting with you and spending time with you. Um, next time you're in, you feel the same way about you. Jared, you do. Jared, thank you. Yeah, you're such a gift. Um, thank you guys for being here today and for sharing your story and giving us some wisdom. Love you guys and we'll, we'll talk soon. Thank you.
Thanks, bye.