Trans Joy, in a Meadow, with Daffodils and a Ribeye

Show Notes

What does justice smell like? What does a liberated future taste like? Black trans queer artist, scholar, educator, and dreamer TK Morton (ze/zir) has a vision all mapped out and at the center of it all is joy. We chat about seeking daily joy, the importance of seeing trans folks with different body types, and visualizing trans joy using all the senses.

To learn more about TK’s work around trans joy, check out https://www.tkmorton.com/ or find zir on TikTok and Instagram

Content creators mentioned in this episode: 

• Mercury Stardust aka Trans Handy Ma’am
• August aka With Love, August

Resources and articles about Lia Thomas and trans athletes, referenced in this episode’s intro: 

• “Swimmer Lia Thomas becomes first known trans athlete to win Div1 national championship” ESPN article
• “The Debate Over Swimmer Lia Thomas at the NCAA Championships” ESPN Daily podcast episode  
• TransAthlete.com: A resource and policy hub created by trans athlete Chris Mosier to create greater inclusion in athletics  

For questions, comments or feedback about this episode: [e-mail] 

Find us on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram or at sgdinstitute.org

Host: R.B. Brooks, they/them, director of programs for the Midwest Institute for Sexuality and Gender Diversity

Cover art: Adrienne McCormick

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Creators & Guests

Host

R.B. Brooks

Director of Programs, Midwest Institute for Sexuality and Gender Diversity

Producer

Justin Drwencke

Executive Director, Midwest Institute for Sexuality and Gender Diversity

What is Take the Last Bite?

Take the Last Bite is a direct counter to the Midwest Nice mentality— highlighting advocacy & activism by queer/trans communities in the Midwest region. Each episode unearths the often disregarded and unacknowledged contributions of queer & trans folks to social change through interviews, casual conversations and reflections on Midwest queer time, space, and place.

For questions, comments and feedback: [e-mail]

To support this podcast and the Institute, please visit sgdinstitute.org/giving

Host: R.B. Brooks, they/them, director of programs for the Midwest Institute for Sexuality & Gender Diversity

Cover Art: Adrienne McCormick

R.B.
Have you ever thought about what a liberated future smells like? Or what trans joy tastes like?

Hey hi hello, ya’ll, this is RB and welcome back for season 2 episode 3 of Take the Last Bite– a show where we lay Midwest Nice out on the table and then we flip that table to dissect the ways Midwest queer and trans folks are missing from national conversations about gender justice and sexual liberation.

On today’s episode, I cozy up for a chat with someone who takes living zir best life to a whole ‘nother level. You’re definitely in for a treat that’ll tantalize your taste buds, but first…

You know I gotta take a bite into the latest media frenzy, and what everyone seems to be talking about the last few weeks is swimming, specifically a Division One national tournament for collegiate-level swimmers in which Lia Thomas placed first in the 500-yard freestyle event.

Now, I don’t want to do the sports reporting any injustice so I’m not gonna delve into the details of the tournament or competitive swimming in general. There is some incredible reporting already out there from espn journalist Katie Barnes who is carrying some significant weight keeping the world of sports writing and commentary focused on Lia Thomas’s abilities as an athlete and not playing into the pressure of discussing her eligibility to compete in a women’s sport.

So if you check out our show notes either on our website or in the description of this episode wherever you’re listening to this podcast, we’ll link some content from Katie Barnes and some other resources that are really helpful for non-sports folks to understand what the unnecessary debate is all about and aid folks in broaching conversations with people in their lives who may have some not-so-kind things to say about trans women competing in women’s sports.

What I’d like to focus on is how Lia’s accomplishments and passion for her sport is being muddled by the high-profile she’s gained not due to her championship win but because all of sudden everyone and their hamster has an opinion on college-level swimming….

The focus and timing of episodes 3 and 4– so today’s and the next eps– is trans day of visibility on March 31st and in these conversations we really wanted to delve into what does trans visibility mean, what does it look like, what does it bring, what makes it difficult. And in thinking about Lia Thomas's emergence into the spotlight, in my perspective, it showcases the complexity of trans visibility.

Here we have a 22 year old College athlete who just wants to compete in her sport and suddenly her name is entering the mouths of people who would never know who she was without the prominence of anti-trans ideology that is so prevalent in our society. This happens over and over again where trans people are just doing their thing, living their life, but what really propels them into the public eye is that people who hate trans people talk about them incessantly– people who don't care about the Jeopardy gameshow will talk about Jeopardy because of a trans contestant. People who do not care about the operations of the Department of energy will talk about the department of energy because a nonbinary person is appointed to a position. People who do not care about division 1 collegiate swimming events are going to talk about swimming because of Lia Thomas.

On one hand, it gives us people to root for and proves that trans people are everywhere.

On the other hand, it can belittle the skills, accomplishments, contributions, art, energy and amazingness we give to the world when the general public wants to talk about our transness and not our gifts.

A mantra I’ve carried for a long time is that you can’t implore folks to show up in their wholeness if you only create space for a fraction of who they are…. And we need to hold trans athletes, and other well-known trans people in their wholeness without turning them into spectacles based on one component of who they are. Being visible should not mean that your identities are subject to everyone’s opinions, and the reality is that Lia Thomas is never gonna hear most of the icky comments folks are spewing her way, but the trans folks in those people’s lives sure will.

When cis people make bold, transphobic claims about a trans public figure, they’re showing the trans people in their lives that they’re capable of hating us without even knowing they hate us. Or that we’re apparently an exception because they know us. Or this situation is different because it’s a competition.

But it’s all rooted in the same disdain for queer and trans people. Perhaps a tactic we can use is to be just as public and emphatic about our support for Lia, and other trans public figures, to counter the rightwing fueled media circus that likes to point to successful trans athletes as proof of why we “need” all these anti-trans sports bills we’re seeing spring up actross the country.

When they yell bullshit, we can just yell louder, and we’ll do it in better harmony and with greater color schemes and coordinated outfits. Surely there’s ways to be celebratory and artful in our actions against the public denouncement of trans people and if it means well-known trans people can breathe a little easier, it’s worth the energy for us to be their biggest cheerleaders in a crowd full of hecklers.

Let me be clear tho, there’s plenty of trans public figures who deserve some pushback and challenges on their own bullshit, but that should be based on their problematic views and leveraging their public power against our community’s interests, and not because they’re trans.

Shifting into our conversation for today’s episode, I’m joined by someone who knows all about celebration, artistry and hyping people up– TK Morton is back for a heartfelt and illuminating discussion about zirs growing philosophy and practices around trans joy, how seeking daily joy aids trans people in carrying us out of perpetual survival mode, the power in seeing different trans body types, and how to visualize trans joy using allll the senses.

Get ready to get goosebumps… as we Take the Last Bite

[INTRO MUSIC PLAYING]

Y'all we cannot do this. We cannot be these stereotypical Midwesterners. Please eat the rest of this food.

We just have these conversations every day with people like this is exhausting. I don't want to do this anymore.

Why can't we be in space with hundreds of other queer and trans folks and having these necessary conversations?

I don't know who you are, but we're going to talk by the potatoes for five minutes

Because aesthetic is the only thing keeping my dysphoria at bay. I'm broke all the time, but I look amazing.

Definitely going to talk about Midwest Nice and if that's as real as it wants to think it is.

Midwest nice is white aggression. That's what it is.

[END MUSIC]

R.B.
Alright. So, I'm going to lay the landscape real quick. So you and I are having this conversation on a snowy Minnesota Tuesday afternoon. You and I have witnessed, from a very close vantage point, the past two years of racial justice uprisings based around police violence and racial injustice in Minnesota. Minneapolis particularly. And the world is literally on fire as continued climate catastrophe events take place. So, while we could certainly hone in and focus on all of the like vitriolic, doom and gloom things that are happening, we're going to embrace that that is our current context. But we're going to go a completely different direction and talk about something that has been very, very important to you as an emerging philosophy and guiding light for your work and just your way of being in the world, which is joy, specifically trans joy. So, can you start off with saying a bit about, I guess, who you are, and why trans joy has emerged as such an important flavoring of literally everything you do?

T.K.
Yeah. Hi. Hello. I'm T.K. My pronouns are ze, zir, and zirs. Yes, it is a very snowy Minnesota afternoon, which we love. I am a Black queer and trans educator, you know, dream creator, joy seeker, all that good stuff. You know, a pisces that's about to turn 30, which is exciting because we're in pisces season. I'm ready to act up, which means acting up means I'm ready to cry. So we're good with that. But for me, when I think about joy and I think about trans joy, I think a lot about how especially Black, Brown and Indigenous trans folks. We're always told that the odds are always against us. We're always told these are all the statistics and these are all the things that we face. But we don't get to really enjoy our lives. Like, we're very much like either we have to fend for ourselves and be in survival mode for decades at a time or we're like, at a point where we're good and okay. But we're like giving back to our community so that we can uplift a lot of folks. So, like, we're trying to continue the cycle of support. But we don't truly get to talk about a lot about our joy, that's not just about like, gender affirming surgeries and like, medical interventions.

R.B.
Mhmm.

T.K.
We don't just get to enjoy life as trans people. And so for me, I want to enjoy life as a Black trans person. And it's like how I approach my work, how I view my life is like, if I'm not happy and I'm not trying to, and then if I'm not, like, truly experiencing joy and what that looks like in my life, then why am I doing it? Why am I doing these things? And is it really going to help me or is it just me trying to upheave the status quo, right? There's so many more things about it. But trans joy is so beautiful and it's so unique because everyone has different experiences. We might all go through a similar path in the sense of gender exploration or might do social and medical transitions. But that doesn't mean that we all experience the same things. And so I think that's what I love about trans joy is that it's so different and it's so beautiful and you can have so many different perspectives from it, so yeah.

R.B.
So imagining, right, like, you have not carried this philosophy forever because it’s very, like, it resists a certain conditioning that trans folks, especially, like, BIPOC trans folks are conditioned to kind of think, whether that's around life prospects or possibilities or advantages or access, right? So, like, was there a series of things or a particular “aha” moment where you're like, “I'm going to shift to investing in joy, and focusing on being happy and celebratory” versus carrying, you know, the heavy weight that is like, everything you listed. Like, everything that impacts queer and trans people.

T.K.
Yeah. I think when I think about it, it wasn't until I met some really key people in my life that was like, “hey, you should actually think about centering joy and what that looks like” and “how does it integrate into your life?” And so I was like, “huh, I never really thought about that because I've always been in a state of survival.” Even now, like, you know, I'm like this almost 30 year old person that is still unemployed at this moment, not for much longer, but at this moment. And how I did a lot of reflection and thinking about what do I truly want out of life? And I was like, “I want to be happy, but I want to be more than just happy.” Like, I want to thrive. What does that look like for me? And that's like being surrounded by beautiful community, like being able to be with people that love me and cherish me. Like, being in love with people whether that's platonically, romantically, etc. And how the conventions of society would not allow me to do that because I'm not even supposed to exist, let alone thrive. And so for me, I was like, “am I going to be the person that is just resenting everything about myself for the rest of my life?” Even though, like, I'm at a hot spot in my life where I have medically transitioned to the point that I wanted to. I have socially transitioned. I've been out for over a decade. Like, I'm pretty fine with everything, but I wasn't living.

R.B.
Mhmm.

T.K.
Like, I did all the things I needed to do, but I wasn't living. And I was going through the motions of, like, life, college, my career. And I was like, “there's so much more to life than just, like, education and career.” There's so much more. And I was like, “why am I not doing that?” And why am I not doing those things? I was like, “oh, how can I center that in my life?” It's laughter. It's like not taking everything so seriously. It's like even when the hard times happen, knowing that you have folks that you can fall back on that will support you. It's your mom sending you random TikToks at four in the morning because you can't sleep, because you have sleep insomnia. And being able to just, like, be. Just be, I think, is like, a beautiful sense of, like, trans joy. And, like, it's still something that we all have to learn, especially like me. I'm still learning through it. This is like something that I only adopted a couple of years ago, and I feel like I've been able to let go of so much that wasn't serving me to get to where I am, where I could be like, “yeah, this is me.” Like, this is what I want to do. And like, this is how I want to do it. And this is all this joy manifested in me, and I wouldn't have it any other way right now.

R.B.
You set up a couple of examples of who you're surrounding yourself with, who you're in a regular conversation with. Right? What else would you say are examples of joy in practice, or seeking out joy in practice as part of a daily ritual or like, a thing that you do for yourself?

T.K.
Yeah. I think the biggest thing is you gotta let go. And we have to understand that no matter what, there's not a single institution that is here to support you, that is here, to that it will advocate for you, that will do the things that you think it's going to do. For someone that works on college campuses, that is very consistent where folks are like, “oh, my God, this situation happened, the college, if I complain to the college enough, they'll do damage control and try to figure out what to do”, but then it repeats itself. And I'm just like, you're setting yourself up for unrealistic expectations in society, and you just need to let it go. Like, you need to actually center your joy by actually effectively communicating how you're feeling. Like, actually like, having conflict and knowing that conflict is okay and that like yeah, it's going to suck in the moment. But you should have it rather than just like, have it be in the back of your head or just sinking feeling like in your heart. It's recognizing your limits and your capacity, and that not everyone and everything deserves all of it. You deserve all of your capacity and time and energy, not that job, not those people in your life, not that situation. And also being able to be okay with not being okay. I think when thinking about joy and understanding what that means for me, there are going to be days where I'm like, that just is not a thing. And that, yes, I'm naturally an optimistic person, but I could be very pessimistic and petty.

R.B.
[LAUGHS]

T.K.
I know, I know. As a pisces people will be shocked.

R.B.
My love language is petty,

T.K.
Petty, yes. But I think about a lot how, how we don't take care of ourselves and we immediately jump to helping others. And we wonder why we're not happy. It's because we've given all of our energy to other people, some folks that granted, we very much deserve that energy. But to many people that don't deserve it at all.

R.B.
Mhmm.

T.K.
And they think about in general, like, radical ways of just being, like, resting and eating and actually drinking water and not just like the decaf coffee that I'm drinking right now.

R.B.
[LAUGHS]

T.K.
And actually thinking about how you want to build your life and who you want to surround yourself with. Because at the end of the day, like, yes, we're in a very individualistic society. But that doesn't mean that you can't care for yourself while caring for others and sharing that joy with others. I think like,especially like different accomplishments folks might have in their lives. Like they deserve to have someone say that they're proud of them. They deserve, like, not just themselves. You can be proud of - like, other people being proud of you, yes, and you should be proud of yourself, of where you've been and where you're going. And knowing like that it's not a race to get there.

R.B.
Mhmm,.

T.K.
It's not like 100 meter sprint, like in the Olympics. Like you're going to get there when you want to get there, and you don't need a benchmark to do that.

R.B.
Something I think that I appreciate and value, that's something you said a bit earlier, right, and would like to emphasize, too, is that centering joy isn't inherently going to mean that, like every day you're on cloud nine or in a great mood or having the best time in your life.

T.K.
Yeah.

R.B.
But what I'm gleaning from that is that if you're in the practice or habit of centering joy regularly as a focus, right, you're kind of building up a toolkit to be able to reach for things that bring you joy that are going to lift you out of those harder days, either faster or, like, more smoothly than if you're not equipping yourselves with like, joyous skills. If that's a phrase that I'll offer you.

T.K.
Yeah.

R.B.
Right. Inevitably, because of life and inevitably because of systemic oppression and the reality of our social circumstances, right,there's going to be hard and heavy days, which is not what you're saying is going to suddenly be avoided by centering joy, right. But you're going to have more tools available to you to pull yourself out of some of the harder moments and understand what works for you to navigate those hard moments, especially if you're leaning into other folks who are also in that practice or who also understand how to remind you or to invite you into what brings you joy, because you're demonstrating that in, like, a collective of people. And I think that that's really valuable as like, reminder that you're going to still have, you know, the doom and gloom days, because that's an inevitability based on the life that we're living.

T.K.
Yeah.

R.B.
But centering joy means being in a practice and being prepared to take care of yourself.

T.K.
Yeah, exactly. And like, also like, having it be a way to, like understand like yourself, too, and how like centering joy can also be very self reflective.

R.B.
Mhmm.

T.K.
And basically like, just like a whole reexamining of life, as well as like, yes, like you're going to have the doom and gloom days like everyone does. Like, we're both in Minnesota, and it's very snowy outside. I think like, it's getting brighter here. So I think the sun might have popped out or just might have gotten a little bit lighter. It's still snowing.

R.B.
So another driver of this conversation, and by the time this episode comes out in a handful of weeks, right, it'll be with the intention of drawing some attention and having some conversation around Trans Day of Visibility on March 31st. And I think that talking about trans joy in relation to visibility is a really necessary conversation because for years and years and years longer than Trans Day of Visibility, we've had Trans Day of Remembrance, which is a very like, somber, like, it's a time of grieving, right. Like, where we're being reflective and attentive to trans folks who've been killed or lost to anti-trans violence or anti-trans circumstances. So then, you know, the advent of Trans Day of Visibility, as I think a bit of a counter to Trans Day of Remembrance in November. That being said, visibility is really complex and complicated -

T.K.
Mhmm.

R.B.
- and means different things to different people, right. Like you know. You know that. You know that. But in thinking about this philosophy of trans joy and centering joy in general and how that relates to like,trans visibility, what does that look like?

T.K.
Yeah, I think when like, we think about the nuance like, of visibility, some folks will be like, depending - and I feel like this is like not like an all generations type thing - of being like, “well, I don't feel represented. I don't know why this day exists” da da da da da. But at the same time, there are very few- I think someone told me this and like, don't quote me on this because I don't know if it's entirely accurate, but they were saying that like, Gen Z is like, the very first generation to actually like, see like, a generation of like, queer and trans elders.

R.B.
Mhmm.

T.K.
Someone also told me, while not related to trans stuff, that Gen Z was the first, is the very first generation outside of Jim Crow. And I was like, uh! Uh! It was wild, it was wild to think about. It was like, Millennials, some millennials like, were kind of in it, but like, most were not. But, Gen Z is the first like, generation that like, that like, segregation wasn't a thing.

R.B.
Wow.

T.K.
And like, Jim Crow wasn't a thing. And so. It's like, wild to think about.

R.B.
Mhmm.

T.K.
Someone put that in perspective for me and I was like,”what?” I dunno, I was like, I was like, “you're right.” Because most parents, like, grew up in Jim Crow.

R.B.
Mhmm.

T.K.
Like, most of them did.

R.B.
Mhmm.

T.K.
And like, Millennials having kids, like, they're like the first generation that did not like, experience like, Jim Crow, right? But when I think of it in the sense of, like, younger folks, like, they are seeing the representation that we never got to see. Like, you have - like, you're seeing like, folks playing with gender, you're seeing very visible like, Black and Brown trans women, like in the media, like in entertainment, like in tech, like doing all of these things. And also like it is like the small things that like, helps with invisibility, like even for me. Like, I'm on Tik Tok. Yes, I am one of those millennials that is on TikTok.

R.B.
[LAUGHS]

T.K.
And like, I saw this video that was like, this Black like, nonbinary person that was getting top surgery. And they were like, “hey, like, my doctor didn't have any pictures of folks that not only had my skin tone, but had my body type.”

R.B.
Mhmm.

T.K.
I think the person was like, 5’ 10” and like, over 200 pounds, right? And so they wanted to see folks that looked like them and what that would look like. And so, I like, saw that video. I immediately jumped up out of my bed. I came into my room, because that's where the best lighting is.

R.B.
[LAUGHS]

T.K.
And I like, made the video and I was like, “Hi, Hello. Like, this is when I got surgery. This is what it looks like.” And I ripped off my shirt and like, I showed them and I was like, “yeah, fat people can totally get top surgery. I got top surgery while I was fat.” I didn't expect anything to happen from that video. I usually get - I think like, the most views I ever gotten on the video was like 3,000 views. This got over 20,000 views -

R.B.
Oh, really?

T.K.
- in like 24 hours.

R.B.
Mhmm.

T.K.
And most of the comments were like, they were like, “it makes me really happy to see, like your results.” People are like, “oh my God, you look really good. Oh my God, your chest hair looks amazing.” I was like, “no one’s ever referred to me from my chest hair. That's so nice.”

R.B.
[LAUGHS]

T.K.
But the biggest thing was that, I said it in the video, was that I got my top surgery done in Wisconsin.

R.B.
Mhmm.

T.K.
And many, many people were like, “I live in this region of Wisconsin. I didn't know I could get it done in this state.” And it makes me really happy to see that like, you didn't go to like, you know, New York or Texas -

R.B.
Florida.

T.K.
- or Florida or California or Seattle to get this done. And you got it - or Ohio. There's like a famous surgeon in Ohio and you got it done here. Like, yeah. I got it like, done under insurance, which was shocking to me at the time. And I got it done at the local hospital, where I was at the time. And so many, like, not only did people thank me in the comments, but a lot of people DM’d me and they were like, “you have no idea how happy this made me feel and how affirming this was to see that this was possible.” And so, and like, some of them were like younger folks, like early 20s, but I a lot of - had a good chunk of folks that were like, in their 40s that were like, “this was really affirming to see and it made me really happy. Can you send me the information of your surgeon? Like, what was your experience like?” Like all that good stuff And I thought it was great. And like for me, it was just a random video that I decided because I wanted to help one person to see that it exists. And other - I've seen other Black trans men and people like, duet the same video, who I am friends with. And it makes me like, really happy to see.

R.B.
[LAUGHS]

T.K.
Like, but yes, like, there's a nuance of like, visibility and what that looks like. And at the same time, we have always had to be our own possibility models because we didn't know, we didn't know other people like us existed. And especially for younger folks, it's really nice to see like, older like, queer and trans folks that are adults that like, are doing this and are like, are like, living their lives and being like, “wow, like I can actually like, do this. Like, there are people that are out there that are older that can support me.” Cuz, especially for a lot of us, like Millennials and older generations, like, we lost a good chunk of that in like, the AIDS crisis and like, that still hasn't been repaired.

R.B.
Mhmm.

T.K.
Like, folks are still to this day talking about like, their really close friends, brothers, sisters, siblings, lovers that they lost. And that was like, an entire generation of folks that could have been parents. But when I think about that and I think about visibility, I think about how even when I was growing up, I didn't have, I didn’t have like, adult representation.

R.B.
Mhmm.

T.K.
Like, if I didn't have proactive parents that really cared about my identity, I wouldn't have had like, a mentor when I was a kid like, as a like, trans person, right. But they were like, on the hunt. Like, they were like, “here are these two trans men” that are like in their 30s at the time when I met them like, as a little high schooler -

R.B.
Mhmm.

T.K.
- that like, could help me understand my identity and like, where I'm going. And so many, so many, so many folks never have that and they had to figure it out on their own. I think that like, I get it that like, especially maybe for some older generations, like, they'll be like, “well, what does visibility mean? Like, it's not that important to me.” And I'm like, “but it is to someone that sees you and knows that you exist.”

R.B.
Mhmm.

T.K.
Like, even you just living your life. You're not doing trans work because not everyone is meant to do trans work and doing queer work. That doesn't mean that like, your sole existence isn't like, a form of visibility and a form of representation. And again, I feel like a lot of times I think - and this was like a tweet, and I feel like you've seen this tweet too. And it was folks that are choosing to be like, visible are choosing, I think it was like, joy over safety. They’re choosing - basically, they're choosing life over safety, right. They're like, deliberately like, being out and knowing that, like for them, that's a risk in that, for a lot of trans folks, like, folks can't be as visible as other folks can, because their safety is threatened. But at the end of the day, for some folks like, that that - their safety is threatened is not as big of a risk as to ending their own life -

R.B.
Mhmm.

T.K.
- or to causing themselves harm by other ways, right? And so, like, yes, visibility is nuanced. Yes, like, folks have issues with it. And yes, like, it comes into question like, well, what about all of like, the Black and Brown and Indigenous trans women that have been constantly being murdered. And the number keeps going higher and higher every year. But at the same time, there are still people in this world that need, that need to see that we exist -

R.B.
Mhmm.

T.K.
- and that we aren't just all of the statistics that people read.

R.B.
Mhmm. There's just so much that we could dig into related to visibility. But I think something that comes to mind in relation to, like, the experience of putting out that response video to the original poster who was looking for fat folks who had gotten top surgery, right. Like, I think about how, you know, what is still a huge gap in, like mainstream media is that a majority of the folks that we see in entertainment or, like - primarily entertainment, right, but mainstream media in general are like, conventionally attractive.

T.K.
Yup.

R.B.
They've gone through an exorbitant amount of like, medical transitions or other treatments beyond just like, gender affirming right? There's maybe some additional procedures to adhere to certain beauty standards also, right? And like, those folks are gorgeous and they're hot. And I'm glad for it, right. Like, I'm glad to have those as part of like, our ecosystem, right? And what we're not seeing, right. Is that, like, I think that the saturation of representation that offers folks like, trans folks or even folks who are questioning if they're trans, and understanding that that's not the one, the only way in which trans folks, like, have to look, bodily.

T.K.
Mhmm. Yeah.

R.B.
Right? I very much think about being in what, I would call a more small town area in Northern Minnesota where I think one of the things that I've had to witness and tackle is that there's kind of this like, messaging around almost like an Amazon wishlist of like, you have to go through, like, these particular procedures -

T.K.
Mhmm.

R.B
- or to go to these particular stepping stones to then like “tada!” be trans. And I feel like as someone who is, like, a trans, nonbinary person who is not looking to access at this point in my life, like any medical transition related procedures, right? Like, I so much feel like I want to encourage folks to understand that like, just because you're seeing that as like, a top example of what folks do and that for many folks, that is life saving and life affirming and it's stuff that like, can be part of your story, it doesn't have to be.

T.K.
Mhmm.

R.B.
Because I feel like there's this inadvertent pressure that because we see, even on social media, right? The folks who are getting a lot of the most following and engagement are conventionally attractive, cis-assumed white trans folks. I think that the nature of TikTok and Instagram is pushing those boundaries quite a bit. And I think that that's also part of the visibility conversation of who, essentially who has the mic, right? Like, who is being regarded as someone who, like, maybe isn't even intentionally trying to, like, be seen as, like, a trans icon per se, but like, as someone who's trying to like, send a message or build community around their particular version of transness and then calling folks into that space to like, also celebrate and enjoy that version of transness. But it's hard when like, there's these really, like, rigid, old school ways of understanding transness that are rooted in the gatekeeping of the medical industrial complex. It's really tricky, right? And so I feel like, especially in more rural areas, or kind of what I see a lot in the Midwest is just that, like what's it called? The like- the truscum narrative -

T.K.
Yeah!

R.B.
- where you have to have gender dysphoria to be trans or you have to want to pursue any kind of, like, physical or biomedical transition procedures in order to be trans. And that's just not true. But, like that is very much this, like, enforced and pushed message that I think that the mainstream media and like, folks in education and advocacy roles probably are going to have to take a long time to like, untangle so that we're not doing that to each other like, within the community, too.

T.K.
Yeah, yeah. For folks who don't know what truscum is-

R.B.
Mhmm.

T.K.
- but also the term is - there's another term for it? It's like transmedicalist.

R.B.
Yes.

T.K.
And it's basically folks, usually it's trans identified folks - let me be a little more specific. It's usually white, young, we're talking 21 and under, trans men that think that the only way that you can be trans, is if you experience gender dysphoria, and you are suffering, and you are getting medical treatment, like hormone replacement therapy, top and bottom surgery, and that is the only that you can be trans, which is not true at all. I think that that narrative is extremely harmful. But the people that boast it the most are young, white, trans men who have a large social media platform.

R.B.
Mhmm.

T.K.
And they also like, dislike nonbinary folks. And like, it's a lot.

R.B.
Mhmm.

T.K.
I think it's very harmful and it's very dangerous because at the end of the day, they're reinforcing what they were trying to reject.

R.B.
Mhmm.

T.K.
I'm not going to get on a soapbox about it.

R.B.
[LAUGHS]

T.K.
I'm going to not, because I could talk about this for a really long time and hurt some people's feelings. No. But the biggest thing is that like, being trans is such a beautiful thing, and it's not about suffering.

R.B.
Mhmm.

T.K.
Like, it's just a different experience. And the way that our society like, warps that is dangerous.

R.B.
Mhmm.

T.K.
And that's why, like, I - honestly, I want to say Instagram specifically - I would say Tik Tok is way better about like, giving platforms to like, different- larger platforms to different folks versus like, Instagram. Instagram is very much your thin, muscular like, trans men, conventionally attractive trans men that look, quote, unquote, like men. And the same with like, trans women, like very conventionally attractive, like trans women that like, look like just like any other person, right?

R.B.
Mhmm.

T.K.
Like one of my really good friends who's a mutual on TikTok, his name is August. He came out as like, a trans man, like, last year, but he like, yeah he came out last year didn't really have like, a big following, he was just on TikTok just to like, do his own stuff. But like, he really found, like, a lovely community of folks. And like, I found him and we became friends. And they also have like, the sweetest smile of all time.

R.B.
[LAUGHS]

T.K.
Like, if you want to gain, like, seven years in your face like, the snow just melts away in spring is bloom, you look at August's smile and that's what that is because I feel so warm, so warm.

R.B.
[LAUGHS]

T.K.
So sweet. And like, there are like, other folks that also have like, really big platforms like on TikTok, that are experiencing trans joy and doing things that trans people wouldn't expect. Like, and you probably have heard of them, the trans handy ma'am -

R.B.
Yes.

T.K.
- who is this trans woman named Mercury Stardust, who is - like, has been a maintenance like, person for like over, a decade -

R.B.
Mhmm.

T.K.
- and like, is giving maintenance tips on TikTok -

R.B.
Sure.
T.K.
- and like, has gotten such a huge platform that they just hired like, an executive assistant.

R.B.
[LAUGHS]

T.K.
Right. I really wanted to apply for that job, but I actually had to be where - in the town that she lived in. And I was like, “I don't want to move.” But it's really just showing that like, not everyone just has to be like, you know, like, the NikkiTutorials, who I love. She's great and she's amazing. And not everyone's going to do makeup. Not everyone's going to be into fashion.

R.B.
Mhmm.

T.K.
Not everyone is going to like be- like, do like, trans 101 education. Like, we have so many more interests and loves that we have in the world -

R.B.
Mhmm.

T.K.
- that is more than just a trans 101.

R.B.
Mhmm.

T.K.
It's like trans is a part of their life, but it's not their whole life.

R.B.
Mhmm.

T.K.
And for some folks, they want to do the education route. Like, that was kind of me when I came out and trying to figure out my identity. And for me, that was fine. But I also know I'm like, yes, like, I can talk to you about trans stuff until I'm blue in the face, but I also like playing video games and I love watching like, Kdramas and I love Kpop and different music. Like, I'm a musician. Like, there's so much more to me than just me being trans.

R.B.
Right, right.

T.K.
It's just like a facet of my life. And that's how like, trans joy should be experienced. It's like, it's an extension of you, not all of you.

R.B.
Yes, yes.

T.K.
And if you want it to be all of you, just be protective of your energy and what that looks like.

R.B.
Mhmm.

T.K.
But yeah, I could go on of like -

R.B.
[LAUGHS]

T.K.
- the cool trans and nonbinary folks that I follow on TikTok.

R.B.
Well, send me the profiles and we'll link them in the show notes for sure for folks to get a good dose of rad trans people.

T.K.
Oh my God, yes! We love it.

R.B.
And there is an aspiration to have Mercury Stardust on the podcast at some point. So -

T.K.
Please!

R.B.
- hello, if you have the connection, please let me know.

T.K.
Please!

R.B.
[LAUGHS]
So as I think we're going to shift to wrapping up, I'm wondering if you'll indulge me. I do this activity with students when it's kind of a sensory activity to have them start thinking about, like, in a liberated future, like, what does that look like when you think of your five senses? So I'm wondering if for you, right, like, if you can describe what joy or joy and liberated future looks like, from how it smells, to how it sounds, to the vibration, how it tastes, right? Like thinking about all your senses. What does joy look like? What are the colors? What's going on for you?

T.K.
I have it. It’s like, I have a whole vision. So when I think of joy, I think of like, the very stereotypical. Like, you're in a meadow. It's spring there. You're like, surrounded by like, daffodils and tall stocks of grass like, it’s like, between like, a ten to 11:00 a.m -

R.B.
Mhmm.

T.K.
- like, kinda time frame. When you look up, the sun. So, like, it isn't high noon, but like, it isn't, like sunrise. So it's still like, kind of, like this dusty type of color. And like, you're just, like, spinning around. It's, like, 75 degrees, like a light breeze. Like, and I'm wearing, like, a big, beautiful, Selkie puffer dress. Selkie is a brand that I really want to own a dress from.

R.B.
[LAUGHS]

T.K.
But they're a good chunk of change.

R.B.
Mhmm.

T.K.
But I'm in a wedding this summer, so I'm probably going to buy one for it.

R.B.
[LAUGHS]

T.K.
But I’m wearing like- you’re wearing, like, your most gender affirming outfit, like, in your wardrobe. And you're just in this meadow, and you're just, like, spinning around and just like, taking in like, all of the senses. You're hearing different birds. Like, you're hearing, like, a woodpecker off in the distance.

R.B.
Mhmm.

T.K.
Like, you're not wearing shoes. Like, you're, like taking in the Earth. And like, you can like, feel that it rained, like, the night before. But it’s like, the meadow is dry enough that you're not getting wet. But, like, the scent and taste is like, still there. And that is what I experience. I think that's what joy is. It's like, so specific in my head -

R.B.
Mhmm.

T.K.
- because I always think of like, that like, beautiful, joyous place to me is always like a meadow. It's like a meadow that probably you can walk like, through, like a little bit of a woods, and you end up at a lake, right? And that's what I think about. And it was like when you said it, and I was like. I was like, no, it's the meadow. Like, I do the meadow. That's all I do.

R.B.
Mhmm.

T.K.
It would be tall stocks of grass, and then I just like, fall down into it, and there's you know like- I think like, it's like people do, like those curated kind of, like, little picnic things where they have, like, a cute little pillow set, food, like champagne and stuff. Mine would just be a giant charcuterie board with my favorite summer beer, which is Oberon. Just know that it's a Michigan beer, and it's great if you're above the age of 21. And like, that's what I would have. And that's what I would enjoy. Or like, if I wanted something more savory than, like, a charcuterie board, it would be like a beautiful like, ribeye steak that I would just enjoy like, along with the breeze like, outside, and I wouldn't be doing it alone. There would be someone with me-

R.B.
Mhmm.

T.K.
- to experience that, because at the end of the day, like, I can experience all this joy, and I want to share that with other people.

R.B.
Mhmm.

T.K.
So, yeah.

R.B.
Well, that is an amazing scene. I just feel like just that whole journey, right?and I love asking that type of question because I think like, when we're in the struggle, or we're doing the protesting, or we're doing the work, or we're just having a moment, you know, where things just feel really heavy and hard when we're doing like, change work or just trying to live our day to day lives, right? Like, we don't always have time or we don't always have the wherewithal to think about like, what is this going to look like when things are liberated? What is this going to look like when things are lighter and all of these systemic barriers have been removed because we're going to get there, right?

T.K.
Yeah.

R.B.
But we're going to get there right? So pursuing those vibrations of this is what I want this to look like and smell like and taste and this is what I want to see in the liberated future I think is just such a fun and like, meaningful time. So I appreciate that very much. Happy pisces season.

T.K.
Pisces!

R.B.
[LAUGHS]
I'm excited to see what mischievous mayhem and tearfall comes from your season. I'm sure I'll see plenty of that. But with that, I think that that's the end of this conversation and I appreciate you very, very much.

T.K.
I appreciate you, too. Thanks.

[OUTRO MUSIC STARTS]

R.B.
Take the Last Bite is made possible by the volunteer labor of the Midwest Institute for Sexuality and Gender Diversity staff. Our larger work is sustained by the contributions of grassroots donors.

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[END MUSIC]