How I Built It - Case Studies & Coaching for Creators and Solopreneurs

If you create online courses, you won’t want to miss this very special discussion! I’ll be joined by Ronnie Burt, Business Lead at Automattic, who’s overseen development of the Sensei LMS plugin. We’re going to cover:

- Managing emails for your online courses
- A.I.’s role in assisting with online course creation.
- Sensei’s upcoming A.I. Quiz Generator
- A.I.'s impact on society
 
This is a audio version from a live stream we did on April 17th, 2023.

This live stream is presented by Sensei. Learn more here: https://howibuilt.it/sensei

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What is How I Built It - Case Studies & Coaching for Creators and Solopreneurs ?

This one's for all the busy solopreneurs who can't spend more time on their business. Each week, host Joe Casabona talks about how you can build a better business through smarter processes, time management, and effective content creation. He does this by bringing on expert guests, and sharing his own experience from 20+ as a solopreneur. With every episode, you'll get insights, great stories, and 1-3 actions you can take today to build a better business.

Hey, everybody.

Welcome to a bonus
episode of how I built it.

This episode is a bonus episode because
it's actually most of the replay of

a live stream I did over on YouTube.

I'll link it in the show notes.

Uh, in the description for this video.

I did clean it up a little bit.

You know, I removed like the shout outs
to commenters and things like that.

But, uh, this is a conversation between
Ronnie Bert of automatic and myself.

On understanding AI's role
in online course creation.

Ronnie has a background in education.

So much Southern.

He mentioned MOOCs, which is I think cool.

Uh, I've obviously been a long time
educator across a number of mediums.

And, uh, Ronnie is also a, the
business lead, a business leader,

automatic who oversees development
of the sensei LMS plugin.

This episode is brought to
you this live stream as well

was brought to you by sensei.

Uh, so if you are looking for a
great LMS plugin for WordPress,

That gives you quizzes and direct
integration with woo commerce and

heavy use of the block editor.

I there's not another
plugin I can recommend.

So check out sensei, you can get
20% off at Halle belt slash sensei.

That's S E N S E I, but the topics
that we cover managing emails for

your online courses, AI's role in
assisting with online course creation.

Sensei's upcoming AI quiz generator.

And a few other things around.

Uh, AI, philosophically and
what it means for the future.

Of online course creation.

So I hope you enjoy this conversation
between me and Ronnie Bert.

And without further ado,
let's get to the intro.

And then the interview

Joe: Hey everybody, and welcome to How I
Built It, the podcast where you get free

coaching calls from successful creators.

Each week you get actionable advice
on how you can build a better creator

business to increase revenue and establish
yourself as an authority in your field.

I'm your host, Joe Casabona.

Now let's get to it.

So, so let's get into managing emails.

And this is, this is something that.

I don't think enough people think
about until it becomes a problem.

So like for me, um, I had, uh, a
membership site set up with, uh, I think

it was WooCommerce memberships that
would, um, automatically register new

members in all of my Learn dash courses.

And I was like, yeah, this
is exactly what I want.

But what I also had was, uh,
an automation, um, inside of

Learn Dash called Follow Up.

It was like an add-on called follow
up emails at the time where you

can send emails to, uh, students
based on actions they take, right?

So when they register, when they complete
after this lesson, if they haven't

logged in for a week or whatever, right?

So any, any of these things
can kick off an email.

And so I had one welcoming them to the
course, except I had it for every course.

And so when they got registered for
every course, they got an email,

a discreet email for every course.

Um, I had about 10 courses on the
site at the time, and I also, they

also got their, uh, receipt and they
got their welcome to the membership.

And so their first experience was
getting 12 emails by making one purchase.

Uh, and I just never thought
about it, right, because I, I

plugged and played a few things
and things work as I tested them.

Except, you know, the secret
is that my user was already

registered for every course.

Uh, so I just tested the payment gateway.

So, um, let's, let's talk a little bit
about this and uh, and email reminders

and things like that, because again,
I think like an online course is,

um, you can have horror stories like
mine, but you can also create a really

good experience for the learner if
you have those set up the right way.

Ronnie: I mean, some things that come
to mind is, first, I think we all think

that there's email fatigue, right?

I mean, email fatigue is real.

We are inundated by most of us,
probably hundreds of emails a day.

And, um, you know, as a result we're
seeing open rates on email, like

mass marketing email list, maybe
going down, um, and things like that.

But if someone's interested in your
course, or like, we do actually read a lot

of the emails that are sent to us, right?

And so I, I just, what I'm getting
at is like, I caution people again

saying like, well, emails don't matter
because no one's gonna open them.

Or I, I'm afraid of sending
too, too many emails.

Like if they're engaged in your.

They're gonna wanna see
that email, see what's next.

It, it's like the best way really,
that we have the best tool that we have

of communicating directly with those
people that have enrolled in real time.

Like when, when they
need some information.

So things that we've done is, um,
first of all, like, you know, I've

been around WordPress long enough
to know WordPress isn't built

to be an email management tool.

Right?

And depending on when your host and
the configurations there, like the

deliverability of emails sent via
WordPress can, can vary a ton, you know,

on if you're in a shared environment,
that IP might be flagged and more likely

to end up in spam folders or just the way
that the email is written more likely to

be flagged to spam or not be received.

We also have just recently added some
pretty big integrations with Mail Poet and

with Automate Wu, which both in different
ways can help with customizing the emails.

Mail poet works really well to help with
deliver deliverability issues with email.

Um, also, like you mentioned, you know,
S M T P, depending on your host, they

might have things in place that can help
help there, but it's something to look

into if you're relying on these emails,
you know, making sure that they're

delivered and not showing up in spam.

And so when we are adding email tools
in, we're trying to add in in ways

that we can like, Do everything that
we can to make the spam Gods happy.

And also don't feel bad about
like, um, not being able to

keep your emails outta spam.

I'm a big Google, like fanboy, I
guess, for lack of a better word.

Mm-hmm.

I'm in all the Google groups and, uh, like
only use Android products and everything.

Pretty much.

I get emails all the time from Google
itself that end up in my spam folder in

Gmail, which is like a Google service.

So if Google can't figure out how to
send me emails that don't get marked

by spam, you know, I don't feel so bad.

It's, it's a complex issue, but,

Joe: um, yeah.

That's such, that's such
a good point, right.

It's it's worth looking into though.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Awesome.

And you mentioned male poet.

Male poet came into the automatic
fold a couple years ago, I think.

Right.

Ronnie: Yeah, I don't
remember exactly when.

And it also, you know, is, uh,
works really closely with, with

WooCommerce and automating all your
store purchases and stuff there, and

just making those, those look better.

Um, so what we've done is now you can,
um, you automatically get a mail poet

list for everyone that's in a course
or that's in a sensei group mm-hmm.

So that you can send out mass
emails or you can use some of their

automation tools, like, uh, I mean,
just a whole bunch of different

possibilities that it opens up.

You can send an email based on if they
purchased a specific product in the

past or something like that to a course.

Yeah.

You, you can get pretty creative.

Joe: That's, that's awesome.

And I mean, that makes
perfect sense, right?

Because I think, again, one of the things
that, you know, I mean, I've been in

the WordPress space since like 2004.

So like before WordPress had pages, like,
it was ju it was literally just a blog

when I first started using WordPress.

Um, and you know, and, and, and the
people in the WordPress space and,

and developers and agencies, like
they would do this piece mill thing.

But I think especially moving into the
creator economy, which is who I'm talking

to mostly now, um, they're not hiring
an agency to set up their online store.

Right.

And they're not, and so
these are integrations that

they need to think about.

And I mean, to woo commerce's
credit, especially like the

onboarding process is really good.

I think it's really good, at least, um,
someone who's used a lot of WordPress

plugins and most are just like, if
there's nothing when you install the

plugin, I either think like, well,
there's nothing to do with just

doing its thing, or like, now I've
gotta hunt down the settings page.

But like WooCommerce I think does
a really good job of like putting

things front and center and, and
like, you know, you probably need

this like tax calculation, whatever.

Um, and so, Having tools that integrate
like that are, um, I think super

important and male poet, full disclosure,
they years ago sponsored my podcast.

Um, but uh, you know, I think they were,
they're doing a really good job of that.

Ronnie: Yeah.

And I think it's this connection
piece of getting all these tools,

like we want to play nicely with, with
everything we can, with membership

plugins, with other mail services
besides mail poet and all that too.

Cuz that's the beauty of the ecosystem
that we're in is that, you know,

you get to choose what you need
and what works for you at that time

and not pigeonholed into one thing.

Joe: Yeah, absolutely.

You get to, you get to
choose your service.

Um, so let's, uh, let's move into
the, the main event here, right?

There's, uh, you know,
enough dilly dialing.

Um, let's talk about ai.

Let's talk about AI a little bit.

First from like a, a
philosophical standpoint, right?

And then we'll get into kind of the
practical applications of course creation.

Uh, you know, thinking about it
for a couple minutes, I think

probably what I use it for in
podcasting is very similar to how

it could be used in course creation.

But I'm really curious to hear what,
what you have to say about that.

But again, um, what is
your personal philosophy?

I mean, that, that's

Ronnie: kinda why I reached out to
you, because this is why I'm developing

it, and that's like the first thing
off the bat, I have done nothing

but listened to dozens and dozens of
podcasts from experts on this right?

Over the last couple of months.

And I, I don't, um, I mean, none of us are
experts because this doesn't exist yet.

We don't really know what
the potential is gonna be.

We don't really know, you
know, where this is ending up.

But I have to say what I want instead of
a philosophy, what I hope we get out of

this is, I don't want us to get to a place
where the robots, the AI, is writing our

entire course for us, writing an entire
blog post for us, and we just blindly

like hit, publish and run students through
that course or something like that.

I think I've already seen,
we have people doing that.

They're like, oh, I can go create
10 courses this weekend, copy

paste it in, sell it, and you
know, try to make a quick buck.

Um, you know, the downside of that is,
well, first of all, AI is still sometimes

giving you, you know, bad information.

Um, it's hallucinating.

It's, you know, telling you things
that are not necessarily true.

So we first, you know, we need
to be mindful of that, but that's

not gonna be an engaging course.

I, I, I think a lot about course creators
and I believe a million percent that like,

Putting people through courses, you know,
having a bunch of courses available for

people to sign up for, learn on their
own pace, at their own time, things

they're excited about and interesting
in like, that's not going anywhere.

It's a good industry to be in.

It's, it's really a needed
thing for the world really.

And, but if we have a whole bunch of
really bad, low quality courses out

there, and that's someone's first
experience as a student mm-hmm.

Like, they're way less
likely to ever go try again.

And, um, I think we saw that
with MOOCs like 10 years ago.

The massive online open courses
or whatever they were called.

Right.

The universities were
rolling out left and right.

They were not good learning experiences
for the most part because they were thrown

together quickly and they just tried to
like convert a textbook into the course.

Millions of people signed
up for these things.

The completion rate was like
sometimes like 1% or something.

Right.

Like really low.

No one signed up for 'em, A second one.

Right.

Cuz they didn't have a
great first experience.

Joe: Yeah.

And gosh, that's such, that's
such a throwback that we, we

talked about that when I worked
in higher ed like two years ago.

Yeah.

Um, first of all, I'm a New York Italian
and MOOC is like a derogatory term.

The first time I heard the VP of IT
at the University of Scranton, St.

Moo, I was like, Hey, who are you talking
to Over, like, I just got very like, um,

can he say, is he allowed to say that?

But, uh, I mean, to our credit, like
we never like rushed to roll out one.

Right?

Like we really, and like by the time,
well, I left before this, but like again,

by the time we were kinda like ready,
we kind of saw the, the pitfalls of it.

Right.

Um, because like, if you're gonna just.

Throw.

Like if I wanna learn something short,
I can go read an academic paper on it.

But like you said, it's
gonna be an awful experience.

Like I'm, when I have questions,
it's gonna be so boring.

Um, and that's almost like
what I think about when I think

of like AI generated courses.

You're basically just saying
like, take all of this information

and spit it out on a page.

Put it into lessons you
think it should be in.

Right, which is not thinking
about the learning experience.

No.

Um, because like AI can't possibly know
that, like how each individual will learn.

And so, you know, that's, that's
kind of what I thought about

as you were talking there.

But I'm sorry, I like I interrupted your

Ronnie: philosophy.

No, I like that.

Yeah, I like that.

And what, so where I hope we're going
is that, well on a couple of fronts,

you can now like have some of that
boring stuff though, that research.

Like writing the textbook
for you almost, right?

Mm-hmm.

Now, your job as the course creator is
to put all of that extra stuff, the extra

elements into the course that make it
interactive, make it engaging, building a

community around the course, possibly, you
know, adding some collaborative elements,

one-on-one coaching with the instructor,
or group coaching with the instructor.

Those sorts of things are gonna
be really what set courses apart.

So this idea of like evergreen
courses that are text based and

like hands off automated, I think
we're gonna have a handful of people

maybe in, in certain niches, like
be somewhat successful with that.

But by and large, like the real value
from this is gonna be if we can help

put tools in the hands of creators that,
that go way above and beyond that, right?

And make that accessible.

Um, So AI can help us build the
foundation, which we can talk more about

like specifics and prompts and all that.

But, um, I don't know.

I mean, what do you
think about, about that?

I, I'm developing this like, you
know, in real time, constantly

evolving in my thoughts,

Joe: so, right.

Well cuz I mean, it's like, I mean,
this is maybe recency effect, but I

can't think of another technology.

And again, I've been in technology
for over 20 years at this point.

Um, you know, and I can't think of
something that evolved as rapidly

as like generative AI tools.

Um, and so like, I've talked about it
a little bit on, on the podcast and

like, I had to like, put a disclaimer
like, hey, we were talking about this in

January and it's like March now, and it
things, everything's totally different.

All and so, um, you know, and so like
it's, it is that constant evaluation.

The other thing I think, again,
as you were talking, what made me.

What, where my brain went was the
idea of the flipped classroom, right?

So like anybody who's unfamiliar with
the idea of the flipped classroom,

it was that, um, the student would
essentially like read the lectures at

home and then do the assignments in class.

And when I first heard about this, I
was like, oh, this is brilliant, right?

Like, this is, this makes so much sense.

You read the material and then like
you work through the comprehension

with your fellow students and teacher.

But, but then I actually started talking
to my students about, uh, those, like who

had experience with the flipped classroom.

They're like, oh, they would just
make us like watch YouTube videos.

And I'm like, that's not okay.

Y that's not a learning experience, right?

Again, all of this information is out
there and, and I, part of the educator's

job is to curate and filter it.

Um, and put it into a lens that works best
for the people you're talking to and not

just throw a bunch of information at them.

And so like, totally AI tools
can help us do that, right?

You can write a prompt for chat, G
p t, that's like, uh, I wanna teach

a group of 10 year olds, uh, how to
make their first HTML page, um, right.

As an expert web developer talking
to a group of 10 year olds.

Um, and like, yeah, maybe you'd
get something, but like, maybe

not, you know, or like, certainly
they're gonna have questions.

Um, certainly they're gonna have questions
that AI can't possibly anticipate.

And so, um, I think that it's
a very good assistive tool.

It's a good research tool.

I remember when like Wikipedia was
first emerging and every teacher wanted

to ban that because it wasn't a good
research tool, but like you had to.

It's a good first.

I think it's a good first step, but
it's not gonna give you your first

draft or your final draft, rather.

Right.

It's, it's gonna give you some prompts.

It's gonna give you some prompts to
then go and look for more information.

Ronnie: Yeah.

And look for like, how to make it
relevant, how to tell stories that

are personal to you as the educator,
or maybe that connect specifically

with the, with the learner.

Um, then you, you're gonna wanna,
I mean, to me, my, my whole

like education philosophy is
learning is doing, not getting.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Yeah.

And so, um, you know, will have
to build ways into the courses to

have the students do something that
demonstrates that they've explored

that new content to whatever it is,
or, or played around with it, or

created something or built something.

Um, or maybe it's in a traditional
sense, a quiz or something like that.

But, Um, you know, that's really
what makes the course, the course

or those, those experiences.

And so, you know, anyone that might
be listening that is creating learning

experiences, like always be thinking
about, um, what can you have the, the

student do well, AI's not giving you that.

Maybe you could ask what could the student
do to demonstrate that they've done this

or, and I've tried that a little bit.

Like, what's an activity that I could
do when I want to teach this concept?

And it, depending on what it
is, it gives some decent ideas

that can get you unstuck.

Um, but then, you know, like how
much time you have, what resources

are available, all that, that
you would have to then tailor it

and, and put it into your course.

But the course shouldn't be
about the content because as

of now, the content is trivial.

It's everywhere.

Like your content's not unique.

Mm-hmm.

The actual words on the
page are not unique.

Um, So it's gotta be the
experiences that are, that are the

Joe: uniqueness.

Yeah, I like that.

I, I always say learn by
doing, uh, by doing as well.

Um, I, you know, I want my courses,
I want people to have tangible

experiences after they take my courses.

I want them to walk away from
my course and have something

virtually in their hands, right?

Cuz I'm usually teaching people how
to do things online, but like, Hey,

I took this course and I made that.

The average student retention
rates, when they learn something,

it's like lecture reading is 10%.

Um, and then practice
doing is up to 75, right?

And like 90% is teaching others.

But, um, if you are, if, if you are
just giving to Ronnie's point, right?

If you're just giving people something
to read, uh, as their course,

they're not gonna retain that.

They're not gonna remember that.

Um, you probably, I mean, if you're
watching on the livestream now, if

you're listening, maybe you don't
even remember what I just said, right?

Um, but like practical doing is
gonna give you a 75% retention

rate because you're at your, your.

Forging new memories of, of, you
know, like for forming new pathways

for like actually doing the thing.

Right.

That, and that was probably the idea
of the flipped classroom, right?

In theory it was,

Ronnie: and, and I, I don't have it
in front of me and it's been a while.

And I think it depends on the topic,
you know, the content, the age of the

learners, but I think there was some
research that showed, especially younger

kids, where a lot of this was used mm-hmm.

That actually didn't show
gains in instruc, like in out

educational outcomes in many ways.

And that kind of surprised
a whole bunch of people.

Yeah.

Um, but, you know, other ways to
incorporate that, doing into your

course, having forums like BB press
forums or comments, um, threaded

discussions having, uh, peer review of,
of work, um, building that collaboration

and, um, You know, there's all sorts
of tools that, that we could add.

And AI is not going to generate that.

Now, you should expect today that
your students are probably gonna

be using chat g p t to mm-hmm.

Like, answer those discussion questions
or whatever, but you know, that's kind of

on them and that's a skill we're all gonna
learn how to, how to figure out, you know?

Yeah.

What that really means for

Joe: us.

I will say, right?

You asked me about my philosophy.

I did write a blog post a couple
weeks ago, um, called like, chat.

G P T is, ex, ex is exposing
like a weakness in our education

system or something like that.

Um, where I basically talked
about how, uh, is exposing our

broken education system, right?

Because if te my theory, right?

And I think based on what you've
said, you might agree with this.

I don't wanna put words in your mouth,
but, um, if teachers are banning chat, g p

t from, uh, from the classroom wholesale,
first of all, You're now depriving

students of a skill that they are going
to need when they get into the workforce.

Like you're going to need to know
how to leverage generative ai.

Um, but also, um, but also that means
you're just giving assignments that

are regurgitation assignments, right?

Like if you tell me to write, uh, a paper
about like the Battle of Shiloh, right?

Uh, and chat G p t can write that
paper and it covers everything

that you told me I had to do.

That's not a problem with chat G P T,
that's a problem with the assignment.

Like you're just making me
memorize and regurgitate, right.

Um, instead of like critically think right
about the Battle of Shiloh or whatever.

Ronnie: I completely agree.

Um, and, you know, for course creators
and some, you know, we work with

people of all different types of
courses that they're creating, right?

There's some that are for like,
certifications and you have like strict,

um, either legal obligations or like some
something that you have to make sure that

they know and that are taught is covered.

And then you have much more fun,
um, you know, hobbies and things

like that, that people that we,
you know, all sorts of stuff.

And then everything in between.

It depends on your course, it
depends on the topic, but you

can, you definitely wanna bring
in community some way and mm-hmm.

And the option for that, um, however you
can, even if that community is external

to the course that you're just opening
the door to or something like that.

Joe: Yeah, absolutely.

And now that we've gotten that
out of the way, right, um,

uh, AI tools can be helpful.

Um, and I think something that, um, we're
teed up to talk about is something that

I always, always struggle with, right?

I make courses for LinkedIn learning,
um, and if I'm not doing, like, if

I'm not doing a coding course, right?

Where like the, the doing part,
the assessment part is obvious.

It's like, take this code,
write this code, right?

Usually I'll like say, oh, right, well,
I'm gonna, let's write this code, pause

this video here, try to do it yourself,
and then we'll walk through my solution.

Um, if it's not that, then they want
me to write quiz questions and I hate.

Hate writing quick because like,
they're so to me, they're like so

contrived the way I write them.

I'm really bad at writing.

I just say that right off the bat.

Right.

It's always like four.

One is I think the obvious answer.

One is a very, obviously not the answer.

It's like, just totally at a left field.

Um, and then, but it's like, it's
something I spend, I think, a, um,

inequitable amount of time on when
it comes to creating the course.

Um, but it sounds like Sensei
is about to integrate something

that could, could maybe help me.

Yeah.

This is our first,

Ronnie: our first tool
that we're building in.

And so what we wanted to avoid, um, was
not having this like chat interface that

you have everywhere else with mm-hmm.

With AI tools.

We just kind of want it to
be magic wherever we can.

And so you already have a lesson in
Sensei and the lesson has content.

Then you can click a
button to create a quiz.

I mean, that's how it works.

Now, when you do that, we'll ask,
well, do you want us to generate

a few quiz questions for you?

And we did a lot of testing and
we found that like chat, G p T

usually writes three good questions.

If you ask for more than three,
they get really repetitive.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and so we were just showing
three quiz questions and they, for

now, the, they're multiple choice.

But what I like about it is when
we can take it a step further, we

then ask to, well also display why
the right answer is correct and why

each wrong answer is not correct.

Like, why is that the wrong answer?

And then we, so when the learner is
taking the quiz and they choose the

wrong answer, they'll immediately
get the feedback that, you know, this

is why this is the wrong answer, and
here's the right answer and here's why.

So it's like reinforcing
right in real time and.

You know, we could do that when we're
building the course, but like you

said, it's pretty time consuming.

It's also a little challenging.

Um, and I think once you, I've been
playing with these a bunch, like,

it kind of helps train the course
creator too, like on writing better

quizzes and writing better feedback.

So then you can extend and
write a fourth and a fifth.

And we don't want you to just
use the quiz questions exactly

as they come out of the box.

Like we're hoping you're reviewing
them and making sure that it's

a good question and like it's
the right answer and all that.

But, um, that's just like one way
of starting and it's, you don't have

to worry about writing a prompt.

We've we're customizing those prompts
for you all in the background and

then putting it into the blocks.

So no copy pasting or anything like that.

It transforms it into Gutenberg
and into the quiz editor.

Ah, that's awesome.

Joe: Which is pretty cool.

Yeah.

That's awesome.

And like the, why is it,
right, why is it wrong?

Like, that's another thing
that I really struggle with.

I'm just like, The right.

I like, I feel like when I say, when
I write y, is this the right answer?

I can also put that in the Y.

Is this the wrong answer, right?

Like yeah, like yeah.

Why is a the right answer there?

The A is the right
answer for these reasons.

Why is B the wrong answer for the
reasons that A is the right answer?

But that's like not really helpful, right?

It's like,

Ronnie: and it's, and you wanna just
kind of cut, be and paste what you've

already written cuz you already
wrote the right answer, you know,

up above or whatever in the text.

But chat g p t does a pretty good
job of like writing it in a slightly

different way that might connect with
them a little bit better or something

like that and not feel super repetitive.

So, um, you know, that's just the
first thing we're playing with.

Um, right after that it's getting
to creating, we found, Just creating

the course outline, which you
can already go to chat G p T or

I've been using Bard a lot too.

Nice.

I think that G Google Chat.

Joe: G p t Google established

Ronnie: earlier.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Um, yes.

And so, um, you know, you can already
ask it for a course outline based

on the course topic and all that.

But what we're doing is you
have to put a course title in

when you create a new course.

And we ask you right after that what
like the objectives are of the course.

Mm-hmm.

Well now we already have all
the information we need to

write the prompts for you.

Yeah.

Um, so then we can generate a, an
outline and say, do you like this?

You can just start blank if you want.

Like, you're not forced to use it, but
if you choose to use it, you can easily

customize it, edit it, but hopefully,
you know, the goal is to get people

to publish their first course faster.

That's like the metric
we're trying to improve.

Yeah.

Cuz we're a business, you
know, we have to be, um, And,

Joe: but I mean also like starting a
course is like the hardest part, right?

I mean, to me it's some people,
they're like people who have a hard

time starting and a, uh, some people
who have time, like getting a hard

time getting over the finish line.

I am hun a hundred
percent in the starting.

Yeah.

I will stare at a problem for
like a week and be like, yeah,

I really gotta start this.

But like, again, generative AI has been,
that made that a little bit easier, right?

And like getting an outline, at
least like you said, gets the ideas

flowing and that's like super helpful.

And so, yes, like you're a business,
you want people to make more courses

obviously, but like that is also
extremely beneficial to the course

creator who probably wants to get
the course done as soon as possible.

Oh yeah.

So they can start selling it,

Ronnie: right?

No, we want, I mean we want, we
wanna make tools that makes their

lives easier and better and a
better end result of the course.

And everything like that helps 'em
learn how to use the our tool as well,

because that is kind of the hardest.

Piece is that very beginning,
just getting used to the course.

And so if it already has the lessons
laid out there with the titles,

it, it all just makes a lot more
sense to teach you how to use the

tool, which is a big part of it too.

And we'll do the same for lessons.

We know the lesson title, we
know the lesson objectives.

We can, I'm nervous about this one.

I, we're not gonna publish it if it's
not good content, but like, I'm hoping

we can write it in ways, like tell a
story a around this topic or Yeah, like

try to make it more engaging or ask
discussion questions for this topic.

So it's not just like regurgitating
a textbook of content, right?

Like it's gonna vary based on what the
topic is, that it gives you some lesson

output, help build some of that, um, you
know, interactive elements into the lesson

Joe: for you.

Yeah, I really, I really like that.

Um, cuz usually, you know, when I
start, when I start on a course,

the first thing I'll do is.

Um, this is like course or book.

Um, there's a like dual mind map of
like everything I know about the topic.

Right.

Um, and so like even if I start
there, right, I could still ask cha

e p t or Bard, um, which by the way,
I tried Bard when I first came out.

Um, it's not as good, I'll be honest.

Yeah.

I mean, I, I I I kind of feel like
Google's like scared of how good it

could actually be and like they're
probably throttling it a little bit.

Oh, interesting.

Um, just based on what I've
read, pre Bard coming out.

Um, but like, is that, is that
rapidly, is that changing rapidly?

Cuz I know like one of the things
that Bard can do that chat c p t

can't is like get the content of a.

Right.

Ronnie: Yeah, it does that.

Um, and I use Bing actually a lot too.

Oh, nice.

Like, I'll test them all and Bing
is chat g p t four, but it does

the website stuff and I really
like the way it cites its sources.

Oh.

And tells you where it
pulled the information.

Um, dang.

That's awesome.

Yeah.

One thing, one thing I like about
Bard is it usually gives you three

versions of whatever it writes.

And so you can immediately see what's
different between the three versions.

So that's pretty cool too.

And I'm hoping we kind of build that
in maybe with, it's kind of like

we're doing three quiz questions.

You can choose to have all three.

Um, but with the outlines, we might
have it do a short course outline

or a more complicated course outline
with like modules or something so

we can show you the differences.

Um, that is, is something we're,
we're actively kind of looking into.

Joe: Did you read Bill Gates's article
about ai, like the future of AI

and, and how it could help people?

Ronnie: I don't think I, I
mean, I know I didn't read it.

I've heard bits and pieces

Joe: of what I, my biggest takeaway
and what I liked best from it was he

basically said that my job is safe.

Right?

Educators, the world's always
gonna need educators and the

world's always gonna need nurses.

So like, my job and my
wife's job are safe.

Um, but, uh, to that point, right,
anybody at this moment can look

up anything they want, right?

Uh, you can find information on anything.

And, um, but that doesn't mean
that schools and educational

institutions are eliminated, right?

Because you still need someone with
the experience to discern and distill

and filter out the garbage, right?

Um, and so I think like what we're
talking about here is how chat G

P T or other generative AI tools
can help us make better content,

give us better ideas, right?

Because we as educators, we still only
have like our personal lens, right?

So like, I mean, I don't want
to, um, disparage programmers.

I am a programmer, but like I've,
I've said this before, right?

Where like I'll be talking to a client
and they'll want to feature and I'll

be like, why would you want that?

Right.

Like, which is just such a
conceited thing to think and say.

Um, but like the same could be said
in, in the education setting, right?

Like, I might not think of something that
the, uh, the learner might need to learn.

Whereas a few good prompts from chat G P T
might show me like, I'm teaching WordPress

and most people don't know the difference
between a page and a post that comes from

a real life experience where my student
was like, what are you even talking about?

What's the difference?

Um, so things like that, if you can
short circuit that, uh, incredulous

look from a, an 18 year old student, uh,
chay, VT could save you a lot of pain.

Ronnie: Well, you know what, you
made me think a little bit about.

Chat.

G p t is so text heavy and I know
that there's some like generative like

art and image tools and even videos
we're getting there, but mm-hmm.

We, we've kind of been on this trend
away from reading a lot of text and

moving into like these like TikTok
like video for everything, right?

Like if you can't, if you can't teach
it in a, in a quick, uh, portrait mode.

TikTok, I mean, forever it was
like, how dare you record a video

in portrait mode and now Oh, I know.

Um, and so like that's a good thing
that educators have to remember.

Like depending on the topic,
depending on the learner, you

kind of set it with their needs.

Like some things somebody might be
able to read and understand others they

might be better if they hear it or if
they see it in a video or if they get

to draw it themselves or whatever.

So when we're building
our course, we can inc.

All these strategies, whenever
possible, give people the choice

and we don't have to funnel them
through the exact same experience

as everyone else taking the course.

We can give them their options.

And that's really what I hope this
like AI will help us be able to build

those sorts of like, just experiences

Joe: faster.

Yeah.

And, and this is something I talk
about with like content reuse, right?

Um, you know, I've got students
who are like, how am I supposed

to make all this content?

Like, well, you know, it's, uh, record
the podcast, use generative AI to get

a transcript, have chat, e b t, clean
up that transcript and make it readable

and then have it summarize, right?

Oh, now you have LinkedIn post, right?

Uh, there is, if you are creating text
based courses, like maybe you're not

good on like, maybe, you know, I mean,
Thomas Jefferson famously delivered

his state, state of the Union, states
of the State of the Union addresses.

There we go.

Um, Via, via written word, right?

Because he hated speaking.

Um, but I was just looking
at this tool by, uh, 11 Labs.

I don't know if you've seen this one.

You give it, you feed it a sample
of your voice, and then it will, you

know, generate, uh, text to speech
with your own voice, um, does a pretty

good job if you have like that North
American kind of accent and dialect.

Um, you know, I think, uh, I was listening
to a podcast with, uh, John Voorhis,

who's from like Chicago and Federico
Vici, who's from Rome, Italy, and, um,

definitely worked a little bit better
for John than it did for Federico.

So probably a very
US-centric tool right now.

But, um, you know, if you're
in a position where you can.

Audio content, you're not
comfortable in front of the mic.

Yeah.

That could be an opportunity.

Right?

Or vice versa.

AI tools are giving us the ability
to meet the learners where they want

to be, which I think is super great.

Ronnie: Yeah, absolutely.

And like I can write a blog post
or an email like in no time.

That's just a skill that I've
developed, but when it comes to trying

to record a video, like it could
take me all day to record a minute

because I just like, just get stressed
out about it and wanna rerecord a

million times and all that stuff.

Mm-hmm.

Maybe there's tools that are
available that are gonna help me.

Right.

Like I can write it out and
like get it out quickly.

Joe: I think it's really interesting
when you think about those things, right?

Turning on a video and,
and talking is energy.

Like it takes a lot of energy,
the camera steals energy from you.

So, um, yeah.

But these tools can be

Ronnie: a great equalizer.

Yes.

I mean, I think about,
uh, you know, people with.

Dyslexia or dysgraphia
like or anything really.

Like we can What's dysgraphia again?

It's writing issues like
especially handwritten.

Okay.

Like handwriting and getting
their words onto paper.

Gotcha.

Um, like, you know, we have
such good tools with text

to speech that really helps.

Mm-hmm.

Um, I've even seen people use like paste,
copy paste and a whole bunch of text

and say like, rewrite this in a more
friendly format for someone with dyslexia.

And it takes out some of like, it,
there's some tools that people are

working on just for that, but like, it's
just these tools will hopefully be une

equalizer for those, those of us both
wanting to create content and consume.

Right.

We will all be a little bit
more on an even playing field.

Joe: Yeah, absolutely.

To be pretty cool.

Absolutely.

That's awesome.

That's like one of the things
everyone's like, why do I, why

does my podcast need a transcript?

Right.

I'm like, well, there's like a lot of
reasons, but some people prefer to read.

And like the argument will be
like, well, our podcast is so

conversational that like just the
transcript will be terrible to read.

And I'm like, all right, well let
the reader make that judgment.

Right?

Like, don't be like, you
won't like this anyway.

Um,

Ronnie: yeah.

Well, similarly, if you have a video based
course, of course it's heavy with videos.

Like not just having the caption
option, but like you can use an

accordion to hide it, but put the
whole transcript in there, right?

Yeah.

So someone can expand, but you're
also gonna like benefit search if

someone's searching through your course.

One of the things that, I don't know
how long this will take or how useful

this will be, but I feel like we're
gonna have these chat bots that follow

us on every website we visit now.

Mm-hmm.

So the idea is like, and we're kind
of looking into this like an AI tool

where you could chat with the course.

Yeah.

And you know, so having that transcript
in there is gonna make, building these

tools and add-ons later so much better.

So I would definitely,

Joe: someone told me.

About a tool like this.

It's not on this piece of
paper, I thought it was.

Um, but it's like you feed it a
bunch of your content, video content,

audio content, and it transcribes it,
transcribes it, and then you basically

say like, um, where do I talk about, uh,
this was a real estate example, right?

So like, where do I talk about, um, HOAs?

And this chat box comes back and
it's like, in this video at minute

nine you talk about HOAs, right?

Like, so these tools are already
being developed and that is

absolutely bananas to me.

Ronnie: And even more than like
search results like that, it'll

like synthesize like, what did
we talk about with HOAs in there?

Right?

And it'll like summarize instead of
you having to read the transcript.

And, and so I feel like that's coming.

I don't know how far in the
future, but your course will have

a chatbot that someone can like.

You know, ask questions of the course.

Right?

Um, every website has it with
documentation and all that sort of stuff,

Joe: so Yeah.

Completely indexed, right?

And then this is, yeah, I mean,
cuz this follows the trend and I'm

aware we're coming up on time here.

Um, so if anybody has any, any questions,
uh, for me, or more importantly,

Ronnie, um, leave them in the chat.

I'll make sure we get to them.

Um, but you know, the trend for the last
few years has been, um, I first heard,

uh, uh, Chris Badgett from Lifter, uh, use
this term, um, like just in time learning.

Mm-hmm.

Right?

Where people have a problem they wanna
solve and they want to find course

material in that moment, uh, to help them.

And so this tool, the
tool is called Searchy.

I'll put it in the chat here.

Um, oh, nice.

But this is like, this is the, the
tool I was talking about, that like

index is your own content for you.

This is like, Definitely something
I'm gonna be playing with

probably on the next live stream.

Uh, either that or like generating
an outline for my next book idea.

Um, but uh, having a tool like this
means that you can have, uh, over

six or 14 hours of course content.

And like, that doesn't feel daunting
to the, the learner anymore.

Right.

Because I think this was like another
thing that like course creators felt like

they had to do was just like, put as much
content as possible because content equals

value, but like outcomes, equal value.

Um, yeah.

And

Ronnie: these micro courses are like
a big thing and a good, I mean, you

can learn so much in 15 minutes.

Yeah.

And like absolutely.

You know, and you could,
you could sell that easily.

Right.

Um, you know, and, and get good value

Joe: out of it.

So yeah.

That's like a tactical error I
made recently where, um, I've got

over a hundred videos, probably
like 125 videos on podcasting.

And, um, they were all in
kind of self-paced courses.

They were mostly in one big self-paced
course, and I just kind of turned

it into a membership where you could
search for videos and, uh, I thought

this was really the way to go, like
Netflix style search for your topic.

Um, when I didn't anticipate was
for like, I kind of priced myself

out of the market, um, for my target
audience, but also, like, sometimes

people don't know what they don't know.

And so if I give them a, um, micro course
or a mini course where it's like, how

to start a podcast for less than 400
bucks, oh, well that's the thing that

they know they, they need or how to get
your first podcast sponsor right now.

Let's not think long term about
generating hundreds of thousands

of dollars off of sponsorships.

Let's just talk about getting
your first sponsorship.

Is that worth 50 bucks to you?

Well, yeah, totally.

Ronnie: And then you can cross
sell, upsell, right, exactly.

Link all that sort of good stuff.

Yeah.

Especially into like a one-on-one
coaching thing or whatever

Joe: it may be.

So Yeah, that's exactly right.

And the mistake I made learn from this
mistake friends, um, I tried to bundle

it all together, like you get all hundred
20 videos and live cohorts with me and a

one-on-one session with me, and I thought
I was throwing in a lot of value, but

it kind of sounds overwhelming, right?

And so, like people who bought, and
now we're six months in, they, and

they're like, do I still have that
one-on-one coaching session with you?

Like, and maybe if I let more people
buy it when they're ready, right?

If I get them in and they, I solve
their immediate problem, then the

upsell the cross-sell is, is better.

And so, um, not really generative ai,
but just like kind of the theory of, I, I

think we're moving towards, uh, away from.

By the college degree.

Right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And, and, and we're moving more
towards like buy the skill, right?

We're moving from like the big,
like four, six year universities

to the trade school again.

Yeah.

Awesome.

Well, I wanna wrap up here
with, um, uh, we touched on the

stuff that, that you are doing.

Uh, obviously you work for Automatic,
automatic has a lot of different tools.

Automatic.

For those who don't know, uh, they run
wordpress.com, own WOR WooCommerce, uh,

and therefore Sensei Mail Poet, Jetpack.

A lot of other things that
I'm probably forgetting.

Um, did I miss anything major there?

Did I name all the major properties,

Ronnie: but for anyone listening,
pocket cast, it's my favorite

Joe: pocket cast, of course.

Um, God and Pocket cast is amazing.

Uh, Hashtag not a sponsor, but
like really, um, the web interface

is still like the best of any
podcast app I've ever used.

Um, yeah, so Great point.

Podcasts, uh, lots of other great stuff.

So, um, is there like an overarching
philosophy inside of Automatic?

I know Automatic has for a long
time been very like, let the

teams do their things ship.

Um, but as you've grown, maybe
you've, you've gotten a more

like com company wide philosophy.

Does that question make sense?

Ronnie: Yeah, it makes sense.

And it's a little bit of both.

I mean, I think, uh, Matt Mullenweg, our
founder CEO o like posted in a publicly

in a post status channel recently, like,
you know, he thinks everyone across

the entire WordPress ecosystem needs
to learn AI deeply and experiment.

And it's like, I think like
everyone, it's taken over.

Um, like it's something every team is
talking about and is thinking about how

to incorporate in their own way and that
the teams have the autonomy and, you

know, to figure out what works best.

Everything from like, tools that we're
using internally, like I now have a

chatbot to ask like how, you know,
like sense senses, subscriber numbers

or changing over time or whatever.

Instead of looking for a graph all the way
up to like getting it into the hands of

users, creating content in different ways.

Also a big focus around,
uh, we have so much content.

Uh, forums and from courses and from
blog posts, you know, about how to use

WordPress, wordpress.com and all these
sorts of things that like, you know,

how can we use AI to, to help synthesize
all that and, and get the user what they

want to know from, from a support aspect.

So it, it really runs the picture there,
but it is like every team for themselves,

we are working on like some centralized
like, um, a p i tools that we can all use

as, so that, that like some of the dirty
behind the scenes under the hood work

can be taken care of for us so we can
just build faster, which is pretty cool.

Joe: Nice.

That's amazing.

Um, we'll have to get into
this at a later date, right?

But like, customer service is
probably a really good place

where AI could be helpful, right?

And yeah, this is like the
first quote unquote chatbots.

I feel like chatbot has a
totally different meaning now

than even like two years ago.

But like, you would see that in, in
the chat bots that, you know, you

have little bubble on the site and
it's like, Hey, how can I help you?

Like the support chat.

And it's like, oh, well, oh, it looks
like you said the word migrate here.

Like, have you looked at
these FAQ articles and

Ronnie: it was rarely

Joe: what you needed.

Right?

It was rarely what you needed.

Right.

But like now Right.

It feels like it'll be less rare.

And also

Ronnie: like the folks, you know,
handling, uh, which their job is unreal.

And I could never do like handling
multiple live chats and tickets.

I know.

And like helping people all day long.

Like they're the heroes, but they
also have access to this data and

it's like a lot to keep up with.

Mm.

Two, um, to help them like search and, and
find the right way to say it that worked

for someone in the past or something.

Right.

And

Joe: yeah.

That's pretty cool.

Absolutely.

I'm, I'm gonna, um, end with a, a question
that I, I'm curious about, uh, cuz I know

for a while every new hire at Automatic
had to work support for two weeks.

Did you have to do that?

Ronnie: I did, yeah.

And I had to do Woo support and
I had never really used Woo.

Oh wow.

And so it was quite eye-opening
and I'm, I'm due for

Joe: getting back in there for a week.

Nice.

Yeah.

Is that something that you can just like
optionally do at any time or, uh, it's

Ronnie: once a year.

Everyone needs to do it, do a week.

Oh,

Joe: that's amazing.

That's great.

Yeah.

That's, it's such a
good, such a good thing.

Right.

I, um, just migrated to Transistor
FM for my podcast host and, uh, the

guy helping me support was also like
the co-founder, uh, Justin Jackson.

And I just thought that was like, Such
a great thing, like, oh well, like,

because you know, some people are
like, I'm the ceo, and like, they're

too good for like, the grunt work.

But like, he's like, yeah, let
me help you with that really

Ronnie: quick.

Just really, no, absolutely
everyone in the company.

I mean from like the accountants and
the lawyers to the developers Wow.

To everyone.

So it's pretty

Joe: cool.

Yeah, I know.

I've seen screenshots of like Matt jumping
in too few times in time, which is cool.

Yep, yep.

Um, that's amazing.

And then the last thing I'll just
mention here is, uh, of the automatic

products that I think are worth
mentioning that I forgot to mention.

Uh, we already mentioned Tumblr.

Uh, day one, the journal
app, which is super cool.

Um, nice to be like, uh, I feel like
Automatic is a good steward of that app.

Uh, and simple note, which
again, I feel automatic has

been a good steward of that app.

So, uh, looking for notes, especially
for Android, I feel like, well, I mean,

when I was on Android it was lacking.

Yeah.

Uh, Simple in a long time.

Best joint based.

Yeah, it's been a long time though.

Yeah.

Ronnie: So, oh, I mean, we've all in on
open source and making the web better and

not just through WordPress, which is yeah.

Joe: Is pretty cool.

Awesome.

Well, Ronnie, this has been great.

Thanks so much for joining us
here on the livestream today.

Thanks to, uh, EDMA and Wanda and all
the lurkers, uh, who were watching

or who will be listening to this
later, uh, if people wanna learn more

about you, where can they find you?

Ronnie: I wrote a post on using
Conmigo, which Khan Academy's

ai on my blog@ronniebird.com.

But you can also check us out on
sensei lms.com, uh, for all the

good stuff we're doing there.

Joe: Nice.

And, uh, yeah, I will make sure to have
again, links in the description for

both this video and the podcast episode.

But, um, This episode has
been presented by Sensei.

So, uh, if you go to How I Built It
slash sensei, you'll get a little, a

little coupon code if you want to check
out Sensei for your own online courses.

Uh, I'm gonna find this blog
post as we speak, um, and link

that in the show notes as well.

So, uh, oh, great.

I found it.

Oh, very timely.

Thank you Ronnie, um, accounting Cafe.

Thanks so much for being here.

I appreciate you.

Uh, really interesting.

Thank you, Ronnie.

Thanks so much for spending
some extra time with us today.

Yeah, it's fun.

I appreciate it.

A lot of fun.

All right.

Yep.

Thank you to everybody
watching slash listening.

Uh, and until next time, get
out there and build something.