Eve: Failure is not the end

The story of Eve is often reduced to a single moment of failure—but what if her story reveals something far more familiar? In this episode, Caitlin Jankiewicz joins us to explore the deeply human struggle at the heart of Eve’s choice: trust. 

Together, we unpack the tension many Christians experience between wanting to trust God and wrestling with suffering, unanswered prayers and anxiety about the future. From the aftermath of the pandemic to the universal fear that God may not come through in the ways we hope He will, this conversation explores what it means to have imperfect faith in a faithful God.

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What is Living Covenant?

The characters and stories of the Old Testament form a rich tapestry, revealing both the best and worst of the human condition—and, most importantly, how God relates to us.

Based on the Living Covenant book series, this podcast explores the sometimes messy lives of those who lived under God’s first covenant, asking what these blessedly unsanitised saints can teach us about living out our faith in relationship with a God who promises never to leave us or forsake us.

Welcome to the Living Covenant Podcast, where we journey through the messy human stories of the Old Testament explore what it means to live in covenant with a promise keeping God. I'm your host, Zanita. Let's dive in.  

Hello everyone. I am really excited to be here because this is our first official episode of the Living Covenant Podcast, where we talk to one of our authors about the life and the lessons of an individual in the Old Testament. We have course had Jarrod on here for an introductory episode, and he shared what inspired this Living Covenant series, what it is all about. So if you haven't listened to that. I highly recommend you do because the word covenant is gonna be thrown around a lot throughout this series, and it's really rich in meaning. But first it is with delight that I introduce you to our guest, Caitlyn. Hello Caitlyn. Thank you for being here. Hello. Thanks for having me.

Now I'm interviewing you first because you chose to write on Eve. For some reason Adam wasn't actually included on this list of Old Testament characters. I don't know who decided that maybe

we've spoken about him enough, but we had to boil all of the characters in the Old Testament down to 28 for this series.

obviously chosen Eve, which I would love to come back to in a minute. But first you wanna tell us a little bit about Caitlyn. Who are you and what is a life of Caitlyn look like?

Yeah, so, like I said, my name is Caitlyn. I live in Sydney with my husband Josh, and I am currently in grad school.

I'm working on my masters in mathematical biology and right now. I am on holidays and I work as a teacher, part-time while studying. And so there is no school and there's no study at the moment, so I'm not doing very much at the moment, enjoying the summer. But yeah, mathematic biology, yeah, sounds like a difficult degree.

Look. Look, I love math. It does make me cry regularly, but I do love it. Yeah. And I really enjoy the biological aspect of it. Applying math to biological problems. It's just really interesting. So, yeah. Cool. It's hard, but I love it. Yeah. Yeah. Was math something that you loved as a child? I don't know. I feel like people usually love maths or English, but I believe you have a passion for both.

So I do. I do. I think that when I was about five, there's photos of me when we were on holidays working through like a math workbook for fun. And so I think that that pretty much sums it up. I've loved math since I was little. I also really enjoy books and reading and writing, I know it's not a super common combination, but it's what I got.

Well, I'm glad you love it because we need people to love it and people about it, so yeah, it's great. Now I'd love to start this conversation where you started your article on Eve, which is actually with your journey of trusting God. This is something that looks different in everyone's life, but I'd love to know what your experience has been with that.

Is this something you've been able to do? Easily throughout your life, have you found it challenging? Just tell us a little bit about your experience.

Yeah, so I grew up in a Christian household and so this idea of, oh, trusting God, it's very familiar to me. And going through high school I had this sense of, you know, give everything to God, trust God and everything will work out.

And navigating friendships and crushes and boys and all of that. I think it was maybe a little easier to feel like if I just trust God, everything's gonna work out with that kind of stuff. And my faith was really not challenged at all through high school. And then we moved to Australia and then COVID hit, and it was the first time that I had this kind of sense of, oh dear, there's a lot of really bad stuff going on in the world.

A lot of people are dying and for them, they can't just trust God that they're gonna get better or recover or whatnot. God doesn't make it work out in the end for them. Maybe like, you know, a happy ending ending on this earth, so to speak. And so that really threw me for a loop. You grow up hearing the phrase, oh God is in control, that means everything's gonna be fine.

You just gotta trust and it's fine. It's gonna be fine. And then in COVID it wasn't fine and there was a lot of suffering and a lot of death and a lot of grief. And it wasn't fine for those people. And so that left me with, well, how can I trust God in my life when he's let all of these things happen?

I mean, it's just the, classic, the Odyssey. How can God exist when there's so much evil in the world? So yeah, that, that was an interesting experience and kind of reshaped the way that I view trusting God, I guess.

 I know what you mean. I feel like I can relate to this because you do grow up hearing these like things like God will protect you, God will look after you, do this and it'll happen.

At the same time, I'm sure you also realize this, that the world has been full of suffering and it's not like that suffering just happens to people who don't trust him. Like, that's not the case. But at some point in my life as well, I hit this moment where, tragedy kind of hit me and I was like, hang on a second.

I didn't think this was gonna happen. Aren't you supposed to protect me and guide me? So what is wrong with that kind of, way of thinking? And is that

Yeah, look, I think that, you know, this is probably a bit of a cliche answer when it's reduced down to this, but we live in a fallen world, and I know it's scary to say, but as far as the day to day of sin, maybe God isn't controlling all of that because otherwise you'd have to say, God had a reason for letting this car accident happen. God made this happen, and so I actually think that a better way of seeing it is that God is in control as far as the ultimate movement. Cosmos and the great controversy, but day-to-day sin, God isn't controlling all of that.

And that actually frees you from this idea that God has a reason for taking somebody early in death or whatever, and that, those things cast on God not a great character when you say, oh, these bad things that are happening, they're part of God's plan. You know, what, what God would plan for suffering kind of thing.

So I've had a real shift in that experience of, okay, so maybe I don't trust that God will stop these things or make things work out for good in the end. I mean, obviously in the end, but you know, the good things will just happen in my life if I just trust God. More I am learning to trust that God is there.

I think that's where for me, I've come to, rather than trusting that God will give me good things and make good things happen in my life and protect me from evil, I think that trusting God has gone from trusting that those things will happen, to trusting that God is there and he is with me and a really big shaping of my understanding has been, John Peck's book, the The Odyssey of Love.

And so if anyone is struggling with that idea of how can God exist and there'd be all this evil in the world, read that book. It is brilliant. I think one of the first ways that I've seen this idea tackled in a way that presents a framework that kind of makes sense. So highly recommend that book.

I love a good recommendation, but I, I think what you're saying is something that we see consistently in the Bible. Like the Bible doesn't say that we won't walk through struggles. It actually says that we will, but that we won't walk through it alone.

know, there's verses that say, in this world you will have trouble. There's verses that say, when you face trials of many kinds, and do not be surprised by the things that come your way. There's the classic verse that says, when you pass through the waters, I will be with you. So I think it's important to remember, the Bible does say we will go through difficult experiences in life and difficult periods in life, but it's not like we are going through those alone.

Now I'm, I'm kind of interested to know, Caitlin has coming to this realization was it something that someone said that was like a penny drop moment or has that been a slow realization kind of thing?

I only read the Odyssey of Love this year, it's one of those journeys that follows you for a long time. I think, you know, we're all on a faith journey.

I think my mom has said multiple times, faith is a lifelong journey. It's not something that you can just get sorted. And so it used to really frighten me, the idea that God isn't in control because that means anything could happen. But I think I've come to a place of peace about it in, in a way that I hadn't before.

And yeah, I think that my understanding will continue to grow as life goes on, mm-hmm. God is, pretty understanding with that as well as what I've kind of see. Um, that's, that's something that I actually, you know, that's one of the things I wrote about in my article, that I think God does have grace when we struggle to trust him and struggle to know what it means to trust him.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. There's this idea, I don't know if you've ever heard of the Gottman's. They are like renowned relationship researchers basically. Yeah. Julia and, uh, what's his name? Julia and John Gottman. They basically have this idea and they talk about it all the time. That trust is built slowly in small moments.

Yeah. Over time. And I think it's the same with us in God. This is something I think I've come to realize because like you probably, like many people are listening. I've had doubts, I've struggled to trust God and I felt almost ashamed about that, or i've felt like I've compared myself to other people who have stronger faith and I've been like, do I just not have faith? Is something wrong with my spiritual walk? Yeah. But I feel like understanding that like God is the relationship guru of all time. He made us, he made relationships and so I think. Surely he must be understanding of the fact that trust takes time and Yeah. Um, time. So I think yeah, that can kind of free people.

Yeah, I almost feel like in some circles there's this sense of panic around not feeling like you can trust God because then your faith is in jeopardy and then your salvation is in jeopardy. Like, if I don't trust God enough, then you know I'll be excluded from heaven. And so there's like this anxiety around making sure that you are being faithful enough and having enough trust. And that can be really scary when you really don't feel like that trust is there, if that makes sense.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think how we read these verses impacts our responses to them. Like the Bible says over and over to trust in the Lord. Be anxious for nothing. Do not worry about tomorrow. There's this fact that I see on social media all the time that says there are 365 verses in the Bible that say, do not worry. And I actually fact checked this once it's an incorrect statistic, but it sounds awesome. So it just keeps going around. But the point is that there are many, many, many verses in the Bible that tell us not to worry. And I think if we read those verses as commands, it's easy to feel afraid and anxious when we struggle to trust God or when we struggle to have faith.

But if we read them as encouragement, I think it allows us to rest, but I don't know, how should we read those verses? Do you think they are written as encouragement or do you think that they are written as commands?

Well, I remember hearing this idea in a sermon back in America at Pioneer Memorial Church. One of the pastors said, I can't even remember who it was. He said something along the lines of the fact that there are so many reminders to trust God in the Bible is God's way of acknowledging that for us humans, it's hard and it's just encouragement gentle reminders rather than admonishment or commands. It's more this reminder of, hey, you know, it's okay to trust God, you know, trusting God is you something that we need to be gently reminded of. I think because God does understand it's hard as humans when we don't have that sense of certainty about his work in the world.

Yeah. I think he is so much more understanding than we give him credit for. Now as we mentioned earlier in this conversation, you wrote on Eve. How did Eve come to mind as you were kind of wrestling and thinking about all of this?

So when I first started thinking about Eve, you know, I've, I've had this sense of, I wonder if I would've done any better in my life if I had been given that choice to follow what God had said or not, you know, putting yourself in that position. I don't know. I don't know because I'm just as human as Eve was, and I know it's hard to trust God, and I just think that what's significant about the story of Eve is that despite having that face-to-face relationship with God, that face-to-face seeing God, knowing that he exists, knowing that he is there and he wants good for you, she still ultimately didn't trust God. And so how much harder is it for us not having that same relationship with God to trust? Jesus says to Thomas, you believe because you have seen, blessed are those who believe when they have not seen.

I'm actually really glad that Thomas was included in the Bible 'cause it actually shows that there were people who doubted Jesus resurrection. If everyone just accepted it at face value, I think that there would be, maybe a bit more question about that. But that's a discussion for another time, I guess.

But the fact is that, Eve had that relationship and she still struggled. So how much more do we almost, it makes sense that we struggled to trust God. Mm-hmm. And God had grace for Eve. And so we know that he can have grace for us and he's willing to work with us. So that was, I think, the main message of what I wrote about Eve.

It's probably not. The standard interpretation of what people think of when people think of Eve. But that's just what came to mind for me, that she had a much closer relationship to God than we do because it was so much more direct and she still didn't ultimately trust God. And so it's okay that we struggle to trust God and God has grace for us, just like he had grace for Eve.

Yeah, I wanna come back to that. Just put a dog ear in that point. But um, often I think Eve gets a very bad rap in the sense of, you know, she walked with God, how could she then do this? But she still essentially had to believe what God told her about.

Yeah. Like how Earth was created, how she was great, like she didn't see herself great. She didn't see the world be created. That was just something she was taking by word. So there was still a lot of trust required. She still had to believe. Things that she didn't see sort of thing. And I think going back to Thomas as well, Thomas gets called Doubting Thomas, but Jesus didn't call him doubting Thomas. We've called him doubting Thomas. Yeah. We've kind of put this negative light on him, um, which I think is interesting. But you said, that God had a lot of grace on Eve for her doubts. Yeah. What do you mean by that? Where do we see that in, in the story?

God could have immediately destroyed Adam and Eve after they chose to disobey him, but, and that's what he said that he would do, or it's kind of implied that they will die if, if they eat the fruit and that didn't happen, God had grace on them.

And why didn't he destroy them immediately? You could make the argument that, it would've been better. Had God destroyed them because it would've prevented sin. But I actually don't think that that's true. I think that that takes away any opportunity for redemption. And I think that it's a real demonstration of God's character that he gave them and humanity a second chance, despite it not being the chance that.

He wanted for us. He gave humans a second chance and he gave an ultimate way of rectifying the situation. So I think that's tells us a lot about the character of God. Yeah. Second chance, third chance. Fourth chance. Fifth chance. Chance. The chance. Yeah. The chances have never really run dry. Hey.

'cause he just keeps, keeps forgiving us. What do we see of Eve's story after she eats from the apple tree, what happens from that point on? We know that part of her story, but do we see much else of her in the Bible and how her life unfolds?

You know what? There actually isn't a lot that we know about Eve after the God. We know that she had children and we know that there's a story of Kain and Abel and, Abel was killed and Kain was lost. So that's basically her first two children, or as far as we know, that were lost to her.

And so that would've been, I imagine, really hard having come from the garden of even with no death and then having to face the death of two of your children. Then we are told though, that she has another child, Seth, and there's some significance to the name that implies it's like a gift from God to make up for the loss. And Genesis says his mother gave him the name for God she said hath appointed.  Me with another seed instead of Abel.

So it's this idea of God giving to make up for that loss. And so, yeah. While Eve isn't a super active participant in the narrative from there on, I do think that throughout her life she would've had to negotiate life with God and. Learn what trusting God means in a sinful world like we all do. Hmm.

Yeah. I think she especially would've had the comparison of life before and after. We haven't really lived in paradise or, yeah. We certainly haven't lived in Eden, so we don't have that. But for her, she would've had to live with the consequences of her action. Yeah. Not just for herself, but for her entire family and generations to come. Yeah. And she would've. Probably been very disappointed in herself from making that decision. But I think it's a, that's a good point that God still showed grace to her. Yeah. He still understood.

Yeah. And we see God continuing to work with humanity all, all throughout history, and that he could have just abandoned humans on the earth after the sin of Adam and E, but he didn't. God didn't do that. So I think that that's really significant as well. I think that ties in well to the whole living Covenant idea. Like he continues to be faithful to his side of the covenant, even when we, for short, even when we make mistakes. He is faithful time after time. When you find yourself in these seasons of struggling to trust God, finding that your faith is, on weak knees, is there something that you remind yourself or something that you come back to that helps? Yeah, so, like you've mentioned, there's there always gonna be time of doubt and faith. And for me, something that I've realized is there's a difference between just signing on to a bunch of creeds, being a member of the church and genuinely believing, Hey, this is actually a belief that I have.

That's actually, I do think that it's true. And so I've been kind of going through this process of going from these are creeds that I just accept versus, yeah, I actually think that this is true and there's been that in-between space where I don't know, and I've actually had conversations with God where I've said, I just need some time to figure this out.

And I guess I trust that God isn't gonna hold it against me, that I'm figuring things out. And at the end of the day, I know that I want to be on God's team. And  all the other things all the other questions around faith, all the other doctrines and beliefs. You know, I think that God has grace for us.

The story of Eve tells me that God has grace for those times when we aren't sure. And faith is hard and trusting God is not something we feel safe doing for the moment. I think that. I am comforted by the story of Eve in that I do think that God won't hold it against you for having questions and not being sure that you trust him at times.

I guess that's what it comes down to for me.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Trusting that he'll still have grace when you, as he did with her. Mm-hmm. Maybe not in the form of a son named Seth, but in other ways, what does that process or that journey look like? Like you mentioned that you are upfront with God and saying that I need time. Do you have a process of when you have doubts in something like is that talking to people? Is that, you know, going out into solitude that reading books, like what is that?

It's usually research and reading. So there was a time when I wasn't sure whether I believed in Jesus, whether I believed that Jesus was real, whether I believed that Jesus was the son of God, whether I believed that Jesus was resurrected.

And that was kind of scary because growing up in the church, it's this sense of you have to believe in Jesus, otherwise you're gonna miss out on salvation. What if Jesus back comes back tomorrow and you're not ready? This kind of sense, and when going through this, I was already pretty firmly convinced that God exists in some degree.

And so that was one of those moments where I said to God, look, I want to be on your team. Please give me time to figure this out and don't hold it against me that I'm not sure. And that's where you know the story. of Eve reminds me it's okay. And God does have grace when we don't have that full confidence.

And then I dug into the research and I did the reading and there I think there's actually. Pretty good, solid evidence that Jesus existed and that the resurrection is the best explanation for what happened after. Mm-hmm. So yeah, that's actually a whole different conversation.

But in Christianity we have this idea that you have to believe things without evidence. But the fact is that there sometimes is evidence and that evidence is important and. Navigating faith within the evidence is actually a good way to make faith stronger. Hmm. Can you tell us more about that? In situations where it's like something is happening in my life. What might my evidence be aside from the Bible? Well, something that my mum has told me about, I don't remember where she got this from. She read about it somewhere and she passed it on. To me, this idea of grace notes, like these just little moments that have significance to you, that feels like God is looking out for you and you know, you could just dismiss that and, oh, it's just coincidence kind of thing. But I think that sometimes that's the way that God communicates with us and just lets us know that God is there for us. Hmm. During COVID, I was, I was pretty lost there faith wise for a while. I can't say that there was anything really that helped me during that time 'cause there really wasn't, it was just a muddled through fake, until you make it kind of thing like we all were during COVID.

And in that particular situation, what was required is I was looking for an emotional connection to my faith like I had in high school. And I realized that I needed to have the cognitive piece of it in place. Rather than trying to recapture that emotional, spiritual high that I had in high school.

And so this process that trusting that God is there and God is going to accept me despite my faith not being firm and unwavering and unquestioning has been really comforting. You know what I mean? Yep.

So Grace Notes is essentially like making note of the moments of grace Yeah. In your as evidence. I think I, it actually reminds me again of what I mentioned before about, the Gottman's idea of trust is built. Mm-hmm. So remember they have a concept sliding door moments, which is essentially these little moments that seem kind of fleeting, but actually add up and mean a lot. But I think the important thing to note there is like you can go through life and have so many blessing. So many good things happen. So many answers to prayers and just not make note of them or not remember them. Yeah. That lack of trust or that, yeah. Faith might continue in that case. But I think what you're saying is make note of the gracious moments.

Yeah. And you know something that's really interesting for me, over the last couple years I've been doing a lot of reading about faith and about the history of the church and these particular questions that I have.

And what's interesting is it seems like I'm given exactly what I need when I need it. So like I'll start thinking about something and I'll start having questions and thoughts and like starting to maybe problem solve and put things together. And then somehow I'll encounter a book that meets me right in that place and then takes that idea and sends it forward and really develops that.

So I kind of feel like I've been given the things that I need, and you can take that as coincidence, but for me, that's evidence that God is there. And like I said, for me, trusting God has become less about. Oh, it's all gonna be okay. Rather trusting that God is there. Yeah. And despite the fact that God doesn't interfere and prevent evil, God is there doing what he can.

And that's the idea of this book, the Odyssey of Love. That because Satan has essentially been given Princeton of this world, so to speak. God has pulled back and has basically. Made an agreement to not interfere. And I think that's a good way of understanding it. And so despite not being able to stop evil completely, because you know, that's just the rules of engagement in this regard, I think God does still act in this world.

And yeah, trusting that has is very different to trusting that everything's gonna be okay, but I think that it's more real. And I think that it's more durable. 'cause if you trust that everything's gonna be okay, the instant that something isn't okay, it just shatters that, you know? Mm-hmm.

But you can still have peace knowing that he is present and that he's with him and he is doing what he can in the situation. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

I think ultimately for me, the story of Eve tells me. It's okay and safe and human to struggle with trusting God and that God will meet us where we're at, even when we fail to trust him. Struggle to trust him, and when that trust changes. Mm.

So good. Love it. And you beat me to my next question. What have you taken away from the story of Eve? Um, is there anything else that you've learned through reading her story about Eve or about God that has encouraged you or stuck with you since you've, since you've gone through it.

I think that the story of Eve really shows us the grace of God.

Mm-hmm.

And I think that understanding grace is central to being a follower of Jesus. And I think that it shows us the character of God that is then carried through. You know, the Old Testament I really think is people muddling through and understanding God and that idea of who God is kind of grows and changes, but from the very beginning, we can see that God is a God of grace, and that theme is continued throughout the Bible, despite, the human tendencies that I guess color the picture of God in different books in different ways is that one consistent theme, that God is a God of grace. And I think that's really important.

Absolutely. Well, thank you so much, Caitlin, for your piece on Eve. You can find it on the record. Yeah. Or in the Living Covenant book, which comes out shortly. But yeah, it's been great to have you on and I've really enjoyed hearing your thoughts on a gracious God, a good God. Your thoughts on Eve's experience.

No problem.

Thank you all our listeners for being here for the first official episode, hopefully you'll tune onto the next episode where we explore the life of Enoch.

With Daniel Kuber, which by absolute, she coincidence, I think is actually your cousin, Caitlin.

 dad's first. What is it? Dad's cousin's, wife's sister's son. There you go. So, i'm looking forward to that. Nice.

Awesome. Thank you again, Kailin. I really appreciate it. No problem.