Arvid Kahl: Hello everyone and
welcome to The Bootstrapped
Founder. Today, I'm talking to
Paul Millerd, author of The
Pathless Path. We are talking
about all things, choosing your
own path today, how to not go
for the default option that
everybody else wants you to
take. But forging your own
journey through your life using
entrepreneurship, maybe. Maybe
other things, you will find out
in this conversation with Paul
Millerd. Here's Paul.
I've been reading your book, The
Pathless Path. And it has been a
wonderful mind expanding read
for me. I think it's a great
metaphor, like the whole book
and every concept in it. And
it's likely one that my audience
of founders and creators who are
listening and people who are
generally are just ready to go
on their own journey, are ready
to learn about. So please tell
me, enlighten me and the
listeners, what is the pathless
path?
Paul Millerd: So the pathless
path is a phrase and my book is
sort of taken on a life of its
own. And at this point, it's
sort of released into the world
and I let people tell me what it
means to them. I think for some
people, it is permission to bet
on themselves. For other people,
it's sort of a nice hug from a
friend on an uncertain journey
without much support. Other
people, it's like, oh, man,
maybe this is you. I wish I had
this 10 years ago. That's also
me. Like, I wish I had this. And
I think it's my own sense making
of what is life look like not
centered around work. And sort
of my accidental stumbling into,
oh, there's a different mode of
life you can exist in, in which
you actually like your work that
will make everything else seem
silly and nudge you to want to
build your whole life around
that. And that's sort of what I
discovered throughout my
journey. And it's still pretty,
not, I mean, it's still not a
widely held view of the world.
And it's just like, wow, I feel
like I have this secret
knowledge. Other people are
telling me the same thing. I
need to get it out there into
the world. And that's what I did
with the book.
Arvid Kahl: It definitely sounds
like the community that we are
in, the indie hacker or the
creator economy, whatever you
want to call it, is more
susceptible to the concept.
Honestly, before I read the
book, I thought, I'm living my
life in a way that is not
conventional. But after I read
the book and was presented with
the word, now I have a phrase
for it. Now I have the
vocabulary to actually express
it, right? Because I've been
trying to fight narratives that
other people try to instill in
me for most of my adult life.
And now that I see this in a
cohesive unit as the book, it
feels like yes, this is exactly
what I've been doing. I'm glad
there's another one. There's
something that you wrote in the
book that I really enjoyed, it's
like find the others as one of
the kind of the tenants of going
on that path, right? Generally,
you present the idea as the
default path that everybody is
supposed to take. And there's
the pathless path that people
take because they have chosen
not to go with the default
route. And in the default route,
everything is kind of
predetermined and people tell
you where to go. You know where
you need to go because you have
these goals already set for you.
And if you take a path that is
less like this, going at it
alone becomes complicated,
right? It's not as easy as
follow the career ladder that
somebody else is laid out for
you. So how do you find the
others? How did you do this?
Like you definitely you made the
choice at some point to quit and
get into this nomadic lifestyle
that you had at some point in
your life. How did you find the
others? Did you look for them?
Or did they just come to you?
Paul Millerd: You said it's
complicated to do it without
people. I think it's impossible
to do without finding the
others. I think this is probably
way more important than making
money. Though people don't
believe that in their bones. And
you need to work through your
fear and money relationship. But
basically, it took me forever to
leave the default path because I
had no people around me taking
unconventional or different
paths. I didn't have the
imagination because I didn't see
people around me and say, oh,
there's somebody like me doing
something different. And I could
be like that. Eventually, I just
got so fed up and I left. And I
felt really alone. Like I
couldn't communicate what I was
going through. It was like,
people are like, aren't you
worried about income? That's all
my default path friends would
say. And it's like, yes, of
course. But I'm more afraid of
having to go back and get a job.
And I sort like I think in my
first year I struggled but I
started sharing more. I was
actually living out what I was
claiming to care about instead
of complaining about my boss or
company and I started attracting
people. It was very slow at
first. 2017 was a much harder
time to find the others. Now,
it's way easier with communities
like indie hackers, Nomad list,
Twitter, especially. But it was
hard back then. I met some
people at a conference in New
York. One thing led to another
and one of those first people I
met actually led to the naming
of my book. So it sort of speaks
to the serendipity of how these
things happen. Somebody I met at
a conference said, you have to
meet this guy, Steven Mosley and
he had been doing a podcast for
years about an unconventional
path called Unstackable. This is
like 10 years ago. I met him.
Not only did he eventually take
over my lease in Boston as I
moved to Asia, he said you have
to go to World Domination
Summit. This is where the
unconventional people are. I
went there. I made like three or
four great friends. One of them
was Johnny Miller. And Jonny
Miller, the second day after I
met him, he walks up to me and
he goes here, you have to read
this book. It was David Whyte's
The Tree Marriages. And in that
book was the phrase, the
pathless path. And David Whyte
writes about this pathless path
is like, you're not supposed to
know what this phrase means. But
it sort of takes over everything
and becomes an explanation. And
that phrase, then when I met my
wife later, was the phrase we
kind of gravitated to together
to sort of describe our shared
journey. So it's kind of funny
how these things happen. But
without finding the others, none
of this happens. And none of it
is fun along the way. I would
have just been like building a
business. But really, I've
wanted to build a life and
that's what my book is really
about.
Arvid Kahl: That's so cool. I
love this. This is the idea of
you going to a conference and
then just serendipity taking you
onto this journey, right? Or you
already being on the journey and
the winds of serendipity just
pushing you slightly, nudging
you into a different direction.
That is awesome to me. Honestly,
conferences, I think,
particularly conferences that
you've never been to before,
you're not a regular but new
ones, are quite powerful. I
think for me, when I went to
MicroConf, the first couple of
months after we sold our
business back in 2019, I didn't
expect this to be a like a
pivotal point in my life. And
it's not even that MicroConf was
a conference. It was way out of
where I was. I was a software
engineer building a software
business. MicroConf is exactly
for those people. But what I
learned there was like standing
on stage and telling people my
experience, sharing what I know,
helping other people find their
way, that's something I enjoy.
Because I didn't know that about
me before. I didn't know that I
wanted to write. I didn't know
that I wanted to, you know,
speak and teach. But just
getting the opportunity, being
invited onstage to give like an
attendee talk wasn't even
scheduled, right? If the idea
was, oh, yeah, sure. Talk about
what you just did. And I did and
I liked it. And ever since then,
that's what I've been doing. And
I met people that just like you
said, that have increased just
the whole the potential that I
have in the world by just
exposing me to other ideas and
other concepts. It's funny that
that is something that I can
resonate with, with my own
experience. It's really nice.
It's nice to see that if you
just choose to act, like the
impetus of action just pushes
you forward to explore these
things much more. I really like
that.
Paul Millerd: I think people
underestimate this. And people
think, oh, I need to have my
income replaced before I leave
my job. I need to have a plan. I
need to know what I'm doing. But
literally just taking an action
will lead to more actions,
right? And Tobi Lutke has this
phrase I heard on a recent
podcast he did where it's like,
changes information. The problem
on my previous path is I was
tricking myself into believing I
was changing things up. I was
only changing jobs in the same
career narrative and trajectory
of my life, which was really
freaking boring and dumb and not
aligned with what I actually
cared about. And eventually,
over time you become cynical and
disconnected from what you care
about. So I think what happened
at those series of conferences,
it was multiple conferences is
that I got rid of that heavy
weight over me. And I would just
show up and say, I quit my job.
I'm freelancing, a.ka. I don't
really know what I'm doing. But
the magic of that was for the
first time I met people not
based on how much money I was
making or what status rung I was
in. I was meeting people on
shared vulnerability, right? And
this is the magic of meeting
other people on unconventional
paths is you can bond over your
shared, not knowing what the
hell you're doing this. And that
leads to some really powerful
friendships. And what I found is
basically I've bootstrapped a
life. And because of that the
people around me, they inspire
me to keep going bet on myself,
believe in myself to write
books, like models like you.
You've written multiple books.
It's like, oh, if Arvid could do
it, I could do it, right? And
it's so arbitrary but it's so
Arvid Kahl: Yeah, I think just
seeing people do stuff and being
powerful too.
around them, right? That's why
I'm so big on building in public
because not only is it a really
nice way of marketing whatever
you're doing and showing the
world what you have to offer,
that's great. But it has such an
inspirational power for
everybody else around you. Like
just by acting, even in your own
interest, right? Talking about
the things that you're doing to
make money you're already
lifting other people have who
just see you for the first time
and see that it's possible. I
think you're right about this,
like in your book, even at a
very early stage, when you were
still, like full time
consulting, like a business
consultant, you started seeing a
part time consultants like
freelance consultants that just
came in for particular projects
and then left again, who
sometimes worked for half a year
and then went half a year and
traveled or, you know, worked a
couple of days a week and did
other things as a side project.
And I think just being exposed
to this, sometimes can just
change the way you think about
work. I really, really
appreciated that about how you
wrote about your own journey. It
was very clear that you just you
leveled up your enlightenment
about what it means to make an
impact in the world, right? You
had all these goals that
somebody else set for you
because you were surrounded by
people who were following the
regular default track. And then
you just saw other people who
had different goals. And all of
a sudden, it became obvious that
oh, you don't have to follow
that singular set of goals. You
can have your own goals. It's
really nice. And I think the
phrase that I want to talk to
you about because I found it
quite the thought of it
invigorating in terms of what we
currently are experiencing in
the world of entrepreneurship.
You call people who go on the
default path, hoop jumpers, like
people who jump through hoops
that, you know, are set out for
them to jump through. And I was
wondering because you know as
bootstrappers, we are a small
indie community and we don't
really have much media
representation. Most media
representation around our field
is VC funded businesses. It's
like the big I need to be a
massively funded entrepreneur to
be an entrepreneur. And that to
me sounds again, like hoop
jumping, like you need to get
the credibility that an investor
gives you. Are we chasing the
wrong dreams? Or more or less is
the media attention, just
another hoop jumpers and that
makes us also want to jump these
hoops? What's your perspective
on this?
Paul Millerd: Yeah, I think so.
I think prestige is basically
what we pay attention to or what
we think other people pay
attention to, right? This is
common knowledge. Common
knowledge is knowing what other
people think. Everyone thinks
this, right? That is the default
path. And the truth is people
pay attention to starting a
company. That is a legible and
credible path in the world. If
you tell people, so I quit my
job almost six years ago. I was
becoming a freelancer. But that
story did not pass the boomers
sniff test. Like people were
like, what do you mean? What's
your plan? You know, but if I
had said I'm starting a company,
they probably would have been
like, oh, yeah, that's a thing
people should do, right? Just
because it is out there. It's a
known thing, maybe less so on
the east coast, where I'm from
in the US and more on the west
coast. But yeah, that's the
thing people do. And there's a
legible path. You raise money
then you raise more money. Then
you hire a team, you scale, you
go big, you exit, and then you
have your existential crisis and
then eventually reach out to us
and ask what the hell am I
doing? But, yeah, it's a legible
path. And I think I didn't write
about this in the book, but I
call these hustle traps. And the
core issue people are trying to
solve is that I feel like I need
to do something. I need to be
special. I am a worker in the
world. And where I come at it in
my book is starting from the
assumption that we are in fact
not workers. There are some
people that are possessed with
other worldly effort and like
enthusiasm toward extrinsic
goals. Most people are not those
people. I suspect you and me are
not those people. We don't have
that, right? We can only do
things we're actually interested
and excited by, right? So the
mistake is taking other people's
goals for your own. That's what
I call a hustle trap, right? You
actually need to start from
within. And the problem with
that is to go within in today's
world, which many people have
not done early in their life,
it's been undermined by school
and jobs, is that it usually
involves a season of wandering
and non doing. It involves
getting lost to a degree, trying
random things, taking time off.
And that does not fit the story
in people's head about what
you're supposed to be doing in
life, which is essentially
working all throughout
adulthood, right? So you need to
go within and figure out what
actually fires you up. If
starting a company is the path
for you, fantastic, but don't do
it in a very, like short sighted
way. I see a lot of people quit
their jobs thinking they want to
start a startup, but then they
have a taste of space and
looseness and lightness in their
life. And they're like, ah, not
for me.
Arvid Kahl: That makes sense.
You describe you just mentioned
non doing. That's something that
that really stood out to me.
Because, you know, there are
many different ways that we talk
about our life when we don't
work. And I think in the book,
you point out, there used to be
something we called leisure. And
it was a thing that we actually
wanted to do, right? That work
was the not at leisure part. So
you can be at leisure. That was
the general idea for most of
humanity's life, that you work
as much as you need to be able
to not have to work, which has
been completely perverted. And
now even the word leisure has a
negative connotation as if you
are avoiding work, which is this
glorious thing to do. So what is
the difference for you between
non work leisure and I guess
laziness? That would be like the
most negative version of that
that I could find. Are they the
same? Or do they differ?
Paul Millerd: Yeah, so I would
say like, there's doing, right?
Doing stuff, all of us not to do
that in today's world. It's like
programmed into us from birth,
you must do stuff, you can't
just not work. All these phrases
we have, right? People get so
nervous. I had a productive
Sunday. I get so much done. It's
like what does that mean, right?
But the opposite of doing is not
actually like non doing for most
people. It's something also a
older term called acedia, right?
Which means spiritual or mental
sloth, right? So I think when
people are talking about
laziness, it's really a
byproduct of building your life
around too much doing, right?
You've lost connection to what
matters with you internally.
Whereas, like leisure is a whole
nother axis. Like leisure can be
passive, that contemplative
mode. Maybe you don't do
anything actively for weeks or
leisure can be the active mode.
I find writing to be incredibly
leisurely. It's delightful. I
love it. And when I don't feel
like doing it, I just don't do
it. And I feel connected. I feel
energized while I'm doing it and
it doesn't feel hard. It's not
hard effort wise. It's hard in
like a skill wise. It's like,
oh, it's gonna take me a
lifetime to get good at this.
But it is not hard in terms of
like aligning with my natural
flow of life.
Arvid Kahl: Do you consider this
to be, I mean, the whole
conversation feels like it's a
privileged thing. That's kind of
where I'm going with this, like
having the choice even not to
force yourself to work to make
ends meet. That alone is a
privilege that not everybody
has. You describe this in the
early chapters of your book,
like when you describe where
you're coming from, right? That
you had these wonderful parents
that did everything. So you
could live a life of you know,
of optionality, of choice, of
not being like forced into
anything. But you say your dad
worked like 10-12 hours a day
for 47 years in the same company
just to empower you to do what
you're doing. Did he have a
choice? Or are there people like
him out there that should have
the choice but don't?
Paul Millerd: In his head, he
didn't have a choice.
Arvid Kahl: Okay
Paul Millerd: I think growing up
both my parents believed the
story that because they didn't
have degrees, they didn't have
choices. I don't fully believe
that. But given their worldview,
I think that was the case,
right? And increasingly more
people have options and
possibilities. I think at this
point in our world, more people
than ever have the possibility
of exploring different paths. I
think the weird thing about this
is that people say because my
parents suffered, I should
suffer. And that doesn't
perfectly make sense. Like we're
not trying to pass on suffering,
right? And the challenge, too,
is like, my father was working
in manufacturing, building
stuff, working on the factory
floor and he actually liked it.
The problem is, too many people
in today's world are actually
suffering doing absolutely
meaningless work, producing
reports that don't need to be re
produced for bosses that are
totally unsure why they're doing
what they're doing, but they're
just going along with it, right?
And a lot of people I call this
like self gaslighting is like,
don't you think it's wrong to
like actually pursue your own
path? And it's like, that's kind
of weird. Like, if you have the
possibility to potentially show
up in the world in a larger and
more loving way, like, why not
do it?
Arvid Kahl: Yeah, I've been
thinking about this earlier
today. And just there was
something in my mind was like,
is it selfish to be on the
default path? Or is it selfish
to be on the pathless path?
Because in some ways, you could
argue that people who go to
default route, the highly
competitive, everything's for me
and nothing for them. They're
the selfish ones. But you know,
you have this good egg, bad egg
metaphor in your book, where you
say as long as you're on the
default path, you're a good egg.
And the moment you go and you go
off the beaten path, you're a
bad egg. And you consider
yourself one because you think
other people think that of you.
But in a way, you are way more
selfless by being out there and
empowering and helping people
than the people who climb the
corporate ladder. Why do we
still perceive it so obviously,
wrongly, in the society?
Paul Millerd: It's very
powerful, right? It's hard to
unsee that once you realize
that. I think a lot of it was an
industrial era in which
countries really were grinding
collectively to build massive
industrial bases and needed tons
of bodies to actually do that,
right? So we needed to sort of
be like, programmed collectively
to believe in these scripts.
They no longer serve our world
as completely as they used to.
There are more options than
ever, there are more types of
work, there are more paths and
possibilities, right? And from
what I've seen, people that are
betting on themselves working on
their own, I'm talking like
indie consultants, solopreneurs,
self employed, they're owning
all the downside of their path
reputationally and financially
and that typically makes them
more vulnerable. And from what
I've seen, even though many of
them have less money, much more
generous. And I don't know if
there's a self selection thing
with that. But I sense it has
something to do with the
vulnerability of being on a
weird path. And so yeah, I
think, for me, I was incredibly
selfish on the default path
because really, I couldn't come
up with a point other than I
would make more money and that
would make some parts of my life
easier, right? But I'm honestly
a nicer person now. I think I'm
more generous. I think I've
grown much more in the last six
years than I did in the first
ten after graduating. And for
me, it's been just a beautiful
opening of my life and to meet
other people like you who are
embracing that open spirit
motivates me even further.
Arvid Kahl: Likewise. I think
your generosity and just showing
up here today is amazing. So
thanks for that. But also just
talking about these things in
public and making people aware
of that, that is by in itself a
generous act, right? Because you
could use your time to optimize
whatever KPI you come up with,
right? That could be the time
you spend, but you choose to
talk about things. And that
brings me to something. I was
just thinking about generosity
and not focusing on numbers. You
know because you could make more
but you're not. You are choosing
to do something else, but still
in our community, indie hackers,
creators, like MRR figures and
graphs that go up into the
right. They are all super
important still, but it's still
what we project outwards. Like
even in our solopreneur
community, we kind of act like
we're these huge businesses on
the growth trajectory to
wherever, you know. It's so
weird how we use these default
path mental models and kind of
try to cram them into our unique
own pathless path like life that
we have. Does that mean that
it's a continuum? Or does it
just mean that we are kind of
looking at the wrong side of
things?
Paul Millerd: I think I did a
lot early on to share my journey
financially. My income went from
this to this. I went from 150
grand.
Arvid Kahl: Yeah, up into the
right.
Paul Millerd: Yeah. And I tried
to share the overtime. I think
the challenge is, you don't get
a lot of attention until your
numbers start going up, right?
So less people paid attention. I
was sharing my income. I have
like, my total income generated
by year. I made 150,000 in my
last year of full time work,
then I made $47,000 US, $47,000,
$35,000. And then $77,000,
that's income generated. That
does not include expenses or
taxes, right? So I was making
much less than those numbers.
And if you look at that, like
nobody is like, I want that
Arvid Kahl: Right. Yeah, because
it's always more, more, more,
path.
right?
Paul Millerd: I had the time of
my life. Those years were so
fun. I was finding work I was
falling in love with. And at
that point in the journey, I was
pretty much like and I had met
my wife at that point. And she
was fully on board. I was like,
let's live a very minimalistic
life and like protect our time
and freedom. And she was on
board, right? We sort of figured
out like if we stay in Taiwan,
we can make about 30 to $40,000
a year US dollars and like live
the life we wanted. And that
just makes people unhappy.
Because, like, they'll look at
my recent income be like, well,
you can say this because of
this. And it's like, well just
go back. Like you can read all
my newsletters.
Arvid Kahl: Yeah, you did that
in public, too. Right?
Paul Millerd: Yeah, and I don't
really care if my income falls
again. Like I'm not actually
orienting my time to make my
income go up. For the last 11
weeks, I haven't worked more
than five hours a week because I
have a newborn daughter. And
like, that time is priceless.
And it's been amazing. I hung
out. I woke up at 8 today and
hung out with her until 30
minutes ago.
Arvid Kahl: Well, I'm kind of
sorry that I interrupted that
with this recording now.
Paul Millerd: It's okay. Mom was
getting, my wife was getting
jealous. She wanted baby time.
Arvid Kahl: Oh, good. That makes
me feel much better. I love
this. I love to hear that your
priorities are so obviously
oriented towards something
bigger than tracking a metric.
And in many ways, I've been
looking into the tweets that you
wrote and the tweets that were
written about you over the last
couple of days. And a lot of
people talk about how much money
you're making with the book.
Because you're starting to sell
more and more of this, which is
kind of it's almost ironic in a
way, right? Like, had they read
the book?
Paul Millerd: It's very weird.
Arvid Kahl: Yeah, it is. I mean,
it's great that this is now
generating a lot of attention,
which is compensated, you know,
in cash that comes back in from
Amazon and all the places that
you sell it. But it's bizarre
that people still focus on this,
that this is the impact that
they can tangibly relate to. I
wish it was different. I don't
know how you feel about this.
But I wish money wouldn't matter
that much.
Arvid Kahl: That's right
Paul Millerd: I think the cool
thing about my book is I did it.
Paul Millerd: Right? So it's
kind of a cool thing to make
From the start, I said if I'm
going to succeed, I want to do
it 100% on my own terms. And I
did the entire book my way and
self published. And if you
succeed with a self published
book, you make about five to
seven books a copy, which can be
very financially rewarding. And
the cool thing with that is, if
I inspire people to write a
book, that's amazing, right? If
the money will inspire them,
that's so cool. Because making a
money from a book is pretty
amazing. Like other stuff can
get super scammy like people can
hack together a course and put
together something pretty
scammy. You can't fake your way
through writing a book.
money on. Like that's the one
thing where I'm most excited to
make money is because I know
other books are gonna be written
because of it and I can't wait
to read them.
Arvid Kahl: Yeah, I can relate
to this. A couple of people have
come up to me and explain to me
that just my kind of writing in
public of the books that I
wrote, just inspired them to
write to begin with. Maybe not
books, some people did, but most
people just started newsletters
or blogs. And I'm thinking that
is equally awesome. Like the
fact that somebody periodically
reaches out to people they care
about that share the same goals
and same ideas and are on
similar yet different paths
altogether. That is one of the
best things that I think ever
happened to me is to see that I
actually gave somebody, it's
like what you said, you have
this wonderful phrase in the
book where you talks about
permission. You just have a line
in there, I give you permission
to do whatever you want. I
paraphrase, but you kind of say
if you need permission, I give
you permission. And sometimes
people just need this. They just
need this little push of you
know, you can write. Like you
literally write every day when
you're on social media. You
don't consider it writing, but
it is writing. You're trying to
teach people something, right?
Might just as well consolidate
that into a blog post or a
newsletter or a book. So do it,
you can. So I allow you to do
this. I love that part of the
book because I hope that this
particular part just kindles
this little reframing in
people's minds. And sometimes
that's all you need.
Paul Millerd: Yeah, you can just
do things. And this is the cool
thing about writing online, too,
especially newsletter format.
You can look back at my old
issues and see like my
uncertainty, my discomfort, my
small following, my meager
financial earnings, it's all
there. And the weird thing about
having some extrinsic success is
people start putting you on a
pedestal. Maybe this has
happened to you. They think I
know something or like I have
some special abilities. It's
like, no, I just stupidly did
something I enjoyed for years,
didn't expect anything from it.
And now I'm having some
serendipity and luck. I have no
idea how to do that. Like I
couldn't have come up with a
strategy. And that's why my book
has no how tos. There's like
some high level challenges at
the end. But there's no how tos
because the truth is the only
path is your path.
Arvid Kahl: Yeah, and I think
that makes the book even more
powerful and almost more
actionable. Because there is
nothing that you can try to
implement and then fail, you
know. Like these, it's like a
recipe where you don't have the
ingredients. It's not going to
help you. And if you try to use
different ingredients, it's not
going to be the thing that comes
out that you want it. So giving
people just the broad concept.
And that's the last chapter in
your book like these eight or
nine steps, just one of them is
reflect like, obviously, right?
That is something very basic.
But if you forget to actively
think about where you are and
where you want to go, if you
just follow whatever other
people give you, well, then
you'll never find your own way.
So they are actionable steps.
But there are unspecific enough
for people to find their own
version of it. I really like
that. And what I absolutely like
about your writing is you write
about writing, which is always
great. It's always great when
people write and then write
about how they learn to write or
how they found writing. And for
you, it was related to your
health issues that you had at a
certain point, right? It was
kind of cathartic. You were
dealing with pain. You were
dealing with struggle and you
wrote your way out of it and you
have this Quora post, example
where you wrote a lengthy Quora
post a reply to somebody's
question about these health
issues. And you notice that the
responses coming in where people
were like, extremely happy that
you gave them the opportunity to
learn from your experience. You
were empowering others by
writing. That is something that
I really appreciate, like, how
important is writing to you?
Paul Millerd: Yeah, the personal
side is the most meaningful.
That was such a relief to
publish that on Quora because it
helped me make sense of what I
went through. I went through a
really hard time with some
health crises and writing was
the only way I knew how to make
sense of it. And I think when I
shipped that essay, I was able
to let go of some of the
resentment I had toward what I
was seeing as lost years of my
life, the prime of my 20s. I'm
more or less lost two years to a
day to day suffering of physical
issues and the mental challenge
that went with that. And yeah,
but I didn't notice at the time
that a reading maybe could be
something that's part of my
life. It was always just like,
yeah, I'll do it here and there.
And then it snuck up on me over
the next three years when I
returned to work. I wrote on the
side and it was where the flood
of energy and sensemaking of
what was happening to me was
going and yeah, it's such an
amazing thing. I mean, so many
people have fallen in love with
writing. And when you do it,
there's really no choice. Like
you have to write. And for me
writing is easy because like
spending time with my daughter
writing was only thing I felt
like I had to do. And I just
missed it. I don't have a
complete life unless I'm
writing. I don't think all the
other work, ah I'm fine. I don't
need to do it. I rather go break
broke and be riding in the
middle of nowhere at a beautiful
mountain or something.
Arvid Kahl: Yeah, Walden Pond,
right? Yeah. I very much
resonate with this. Like, if I
may, like, give you an example
of how this exact same thing
happened to me. Like when we
were in the final year of
Feedback Panda, the software
business that we sold, I was
under like heavy burnouts. And
you've talked about burnout too.
And I really liked the way you
phrased it as like an alignment
problem between your individual
goals and the company goals and
internally between what you
think you want and what you
think you need. We could unravel
this. That alone was a wonderful
way of expressing burnout
because it exactly describes
what I went through. But it was
the end of an era for me because
we were selling this business
and I was mid burnout. And I
started writing. I needed some
cathartic way out of this. I was
like, constantly under stress,
permanently anxious, the only
technical person in the business
who could deal with whatever may
come and we had 1000s of
customers. So there was always
something going on. I had a lot
of, you know, I was overwhelmed.
And I was mid burnout, close to
burnout. I still don't know, I
never really diagnosed it. But I
was there. And I wrote this
10,000 word piece, the first
thing I ever wrote because
English is my second language.
And I never really wrote much in
terms of articles or anything,
but I just started writing
about, I think, like mental
health issues for bootstrap
CTOs. I think that was the
title. And I just pulled out
everything, like every single
thing that I felt went onto the
page and then never published
it. Like because we were mid
selling the business. I'm not
going to publish an article
about how hard it is to run a
business while you're trying to
negotiate a good price. That
doesn't make sense. But what it
helped me was to crystallize my
thinking and I think that's what
writing is, in its purest
essence is intentional thought.
It's not thought that just
happens. It's thought
crystallized into a shape, we
can retrieve it and mold it and
shape it, right? That's what
writing is, which is also why I
will never give up writing. It's
going to be just like you, the
last thing that I give up. I
will join you at that pond or
that mountain that you're
hanging out doing. I'm just
going to co write stuff together
because that will be like that
is why I live is because I can
do this at this point. And
later, a couple of months after
we sold, I revisited this
article and I thought I quite
enjoyed this not just for the
catharsis that it gave me. But
because I solve a couple
problems while writing the
article. I thought about a
couple of scalability solutions,
how to deal with certain, you
know, customer service problems
and automations that all came to
me while writing and I thought
oh, I'm gonna keep doing this.
This is fun, started my blog,
started writing, started
newsletter, wrote a couple
books. That's where my journey
came from, from a mental health
issue that I wrote my way out of
just wanted to share that with
you because it feels like you
very similarly found writing to
be the catalyst for a journey of
teaching, which is kind of cool.
Just wanted to share this.
Paul Millerd: Yeah, I think I
want to live an intentional
life. And one way to avoid
bullshitting yourself is to ship
out your intentions to 1000s of
people. It was hundreds at
first, but I felt like okay, if
I'm going to say these things, I
need to do these things. So I've
done all sorts of experiments
over the last six years and it's
been a really interesting way of
keeping myself accountable.
After a month of launching my
book, I think I sold like 300
copies or something. It was an
absolute success. Why? Because
in the final months of writing
it, I sort of like broke down in
tears and like, I've connected a
few pieces in the book and
pulled some pieces together,
wrote the introduction. And it
was just like an enormous
release of tension and
realizing, like how scared I was
to really admit that this shit
matters, like being like living
a life where you do what you
claim to care about. It matters.
And I was so scared to say that.
I had all these voices adults I
grew up around who would
cynically say oh, you're just
naive. You got to work, buddy.
Like I had all these voices in
my head and I was small and I
was scared. And what the book
enabled me to do is actually
show up in my own life and not
be afraid of what people would
say, like I was living as if it
mattered, but I was small and
scared, right?
Arvid Kahl: It reminds me of the
adage from a quote that you put
in there with the freedom from
freedom too, right? You're free
from oppression. You're free to
express yourself. And that is
something that, I studied
political science in Germany. So
that is a very strong theme
there as well.
Paul Millerd: How do you say his
name? I can improve my
pronunciation.
Arvid Kahl: No. I mean, it's
just like my name. I think my
name in German is Arvid Kahl.
And in English, it's Arvid Kahl,
right? So you have these.
Paul Millerd: Yeah, I gotta
improve my German.
Arvid Kahl: Yeah, it's erechfrom
and erechfrom talks about the
two kinds of freedom, right? The
freedom from, or freedom from,
which means like, you're not
exposed to something. And the
other part is agency, which is
something that is the freedom to
do something that is allowed for
you to do. And I really resonate
with this because ever since I
left my last job as a software
engineer, I've been living the
freedom to life quite a bit,
then it's scary. It is a scary
thing. Yeah, that's kind of why
am I mentioning this year
because you kind of have to find
out. I think that's your Oprah
quote there. You have to find
out who you are and then do it
with purpose, right? The idea
that
Paul Millerd: Yeah, Dolly Parton
Arvid Kahl: Dolly Parton, yeah.
Sorry. Yeah, that's right. To
figure out who you are, who that
person is, that will go on the
journey. And most of us don't
really know this, like, you go
into a life and you have these
stories by your parents, by your
grandparents, that's my story
too. Like you had very
supportive grandparents. I also
had very supportive
grandparents. But they were
raised in an Eastern Germany.
They were raised in the German
Democratic Republic and to them
finding a job and not talking
about what you're doing because
otherwise people might get
jealous, that was the epitome of
a good life. And that was what
they instilled in their kids and
what their kids instilled in
their kids, which is me. So I
had to do a lot of unlearning
when I became an adult, of the
things that were taught to me as
this is how you live a stable,
safe and good life. And then
finding out that I'm actually a
different person that will
openly share a lot of things
that my grandmother, she already
passed away. But she would pass
away again, if she knew how much
I share about my life. That's
kind of how I feel. She would
probably like it still because I
could explain it to her and she
would see the resonance that I'm
getting. But that would freak
her out. Like whenever we talked
about money. And we rarely
talked about money in my family,
it was like never ever mentioned
what you have because somebody
else might take it because that
was the system that they came up
on, right? And unlearning this,
whew, quite the challenge and
probably a challenge for many
people today who come from,
like, you know, like, multi
generational immigrant families
that come from a different
culture and that kind of stuff.
Paul Millerd: Well, it's real,
too, right? To stand out in
Eastern Germany was extremely
risky, right? And that's not
serving us anymore, though,
right? And I think scripts about
how to live your life are always
changing. I just sense right now
that the scripts that emerged
after World War ll because they
were in response to these large
scale, massive national country,
industrial systems are even more
powerful than we've had before.
For most of humanity, adapting
to your conditions was the
natural way. For our generation,
living out your parents' idea of
how the world works is the
normal route, right? Because our
world is so safe. When the world
isn't safe, you're an idiot not
to adapt. When the world is
safe, if you don't adapt, you're
likely going to please your
parents and make them feel
comfortable. It's been
surprising to me how many people
get uncomfortable just based on
my life choices even if I'm not
talking about it. They'll
unprompted bring up like, don't
you think like people should
work in a job? And it's like, I
didn't say anything. What are
you talking about? I think
people should do what's best for
their life.
Arvid Kahl: Right. That sounds
like a lot of projection is
happening there. But
Paul Millerd: Of course, this
happens to all of us.
Arvid Kahl: In some ways, you
could argue. Yeah, exactly.
That's the problem, right? I was
gonna say like, you could
probably argue that they're at
least a little bit curious about
it because they're asking a
question. They're not telling
you that you're wrong. But it is
still the programming that comes
from society and from your
parents and from your school,
right? That gives you the
baseline, the default that you
then maybe question or at least
ask why the other person does
not live that life. Yeah, I love
what you wrote about with the
boomer generation and like the
how the life that they're
leading is the anomaly.
Arvid Kahl: I think that's what
you just said too, right? We're
Paul Millerd: Yeah
adapting is decentered. Like,
that's the thing like every
single sci fi movie, every
single fantasy story that we
read is about people living a
weird life that they always have
to adapt to. So if you look into
the narrative, like even Joseph
Campbell with, you know, the
Monomyth and all that, that is a
story of adapting, of
overcoming, of finding help,
finding guidance, having an
emesis, having an enemy, right?
It's always a struggle, like
every human story is a struggle.
And then there's these weird 50
years or so, where everything is
great. And we consider this to
be the new normal. I'm quite
frightened for the financial
systems of the future because I
think the systems we have right
now are built on our expectation
that this great phase is going
to keep on growing and going to
establish itself forever.
Paul Millerd: Yeah, and this is
the weird thing about like,
saying, people are privileged to
take an unconventional path
because when you take an
unconventional path, you pretty
much always face criticism, lack
of lack of support from family
members, you lose friendships.
And it can be pretty shitty. And
this comes back to what we were
talking about at the beginning,
which is that this is why
finding the others is so
important. And this is why I
share my work. And I'm out there
in public because it's a
generous act to share your work
because you might let the others
find you, right? And
Arvid Kahl: Yeah, that's right.
Paul Millerd: This is important.
We need more experiments in
living. There's this, I listened
to this podcast, The Align
podcast with Aaron Alexander and
he interviewed Boyd Vardy. Have
you listened to Boyd Vardy?
Arvid Kahl: No
Paul Millerd: He's a lion
tractor. He's gone through all
sorts of trauma in his life,
crazy life story. But he says,
to become someone who lives on
the track of your life is what
it means to be a modern
activist, right? We mistake
modern activism would like
having an impact, right? Working
in social responsibility,
nonsense, to become someone who
lives on the track of your life.
So you work out what it would
mean to go inward and find your
way to your gift, your purpose,
your essence. It's incredible
what happens around a person
that's found that. And at a
deeper level, when you're around
someone that's really in their
essence, really in their
mission, you can feel it in
them. There's something about
their life, that you look at it
and feel yourself lean forward
in your chair and you feel like
you can just feel the depth of
it and it starts to wake you up
to what's possible. I think
that's it. That's everything,
like live true to the track of
your own life.
Arvid Kahl: And honestly, that's
what I feel when I listen to you
because Ieven though it's just
been six years, you have found
something, right? And that is
something. That is incredibly
valuable because most people are
looking for that. But they
haven't found it yet. Because
they don't know how to look for
it. They don't know, like I was
thinking earlier when you were
saying like, you wanted to
change things in your life, but
the only thing you did was
changing jobs because that's the
only thing you could fathom
changing, right? That reminds me
so strongly of the overton
window that we have in society,
like the things that we are
allowed to discuss, right?
There's stuff that was taboo on
the left and taboo on the right
and everything in the middle.
You're allowed to talk about it
and you're allowed to discuss it
and criticize it. But anything
beyond it, beyond those barriers
to the side, that's off limits.
And I think there is a mental
overton window for how we live
our life. And we talk about a
lot like, oh, career progress
and I'm gonna go to work in that
firm. And then I'm going to find
that job. I'm going to go to
this school to get these kinds
of degrees. And you have a lot
of choice and a lot of option
and people min max all these
little things. But just in that
really narrow frame, what you do
and what you found is a way to
expand the window. And I think
that is incredibly powerful. And
I'm extremely grateful that
you're sharing this with me
today, obviously, but in the
book and in your newsletter, in
your work. I want more people to
be exposed to this, which is why
I'm talking to you, which is why
I'm highlighting your work
wherever I can. And I want
people to find their own way so
I can learn from them. So that's
kind of my selfless approach to
sharing. I think that's one of
the last things you say in the
book as well as like, yeah, I'm
doing this not just out of the
goodness of my heart, although
there is so much generosity, but
it's also something that gets
back to you. There's reciprocity
in this. There's an actual
relationship between the people
that are on the journey and
that, to me is sharing in
public, building in public,
teaching in public. That gives
you this reciprocity where you
get something out of it
eventually, it's the long game.
It's the infinite game that you
play. And sorry, you can
probably tell I'm excited by
this because I feel this is
something that just if more
people even just consider it for
little, that will massively
impact their life. So yeah,
thank you so much for being here
today. I cannot express how much
I enjoy this conversation with
you.
Paul Millerd: You're a generous
human. I appreciate your
curiosity and sharing as well. I
think the core thing like I'd
leave people with is, there's
this state you can find in which
you are so connected and so
alive with a state of being, a
type of work, a way of showing
up in the world. That is so
powerful. It's worth finding.
Like, I don't know how to find
it. That's the thing. I don't
know how to find it. It's hard.
It's confusing, but it's worth
finding. And if you find it, I
can't promise you'll make money
from it. But you'll find a
different relationship to self
in the world in which you might
go places you can't even
imagine.
Arvid Kahl: Absolutely. Well,
the next place people should go
is probably somewhere where they
can find you. So where do you
want people to go to learn more
about you and your work?
Paul Millerd: So I explore
people's stories like yours. You
should definitely come on the
podcast, The Pathless Path
podcast. I've been leaning more
into that. But yeah, my book is
basically my super raw,
vulnerable journey with all the
missteps and failures along the
way. So you can check that out.
Just search the Pathless Path,
Paul or boundless.substack.com
for my newsletter and yeah, I
write most weeks, some weeks I
take it off. And yeah, you can
find me.
Arvid Kahl: And you should find
Paul. Like he's worth every
minute you spend with him as
evidenced by this one hour long
conversation. Thank you so much,
Paul for joining me on the
podcast today. That was an
amazing and extremely
instructive conversation. Thank
you so much.
Paul Millerd: I appreciate your
support.
Arvid Kahl: And that's it for
today. Thank you for listening
to The Bootstrapped Founder. You
can find me on Twitter
@arvidkahl. You'll find my books
and my twitter course as well.
If you want to support me and
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Any of this will truly help the
show. So thank you very much for
listening and have a wonderful
day. Bye bye
