The Jonathan Kogan Show

A great discussion with Dr. Jay Bhattacharya on what went wrong in how we handled the pandemic and how we can fix things going forward. We discuss everything under the sun: from the horrific consequences of lockdowns to how we can fix The FDA and CDC. This is a fantastic starting point for how we can begin building a better future for everyone.

Show Notes

This is a fantastic discussion with Dr. Jay Bhattacharya. Dr. Bhattacharya is a professor at Stanford University Medical School, a physician, epidemiologist, health economist, and public health policy expert focusing on infectious diseases and vulnerable populations. Jay has also been an outspoken critic of lockdowns and promoter of having public discussions or debates about science and health policy (you know, like the good ole days!). Unlike other podcasts, we focus on how we can fix the current problems in our health system and how we can make a better future for everyone. He also co-authored the Great Barrington Declaration, which he describes as his "least original" work of all-time.
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What is The Jonathan Kogan Show?

The Jonathan Kogan Show brings you the most important, underreports news (and hot takes) that you need to know but the mainstream media is not covering. If you are searching for the truth, and of course the cold hard facts, then this podcast is for you. But, if you are looking for fake news and distractions from the real news, then you will be better off going to CNN, MSNBC, or Fox News. We do not cater to any corporations or powerful elites, but rather everyday peasants who simply want to know what is really going on without the propaganda.

All Channels: https://jsk.transistor.fm/

[jonathan_kogan]: We're live I think we're live hopefully
we're live all right special special episode today

[jonathan_kogan]: this is awesome I'm super super excited
we got Dr Jay Bhattacharya right people Bhattacharya

[jonathan_kogan]: but

[jay_bhattacharya]: I

[jonathan_kogan]: lax he says Bhattacharya

[jay_bhattacharya]: say by the chariot but my cousins
think I pronounced it all wrong so cool

[jay_bhattacharya]: the heck nose it

[jonathan_kogan]: all right Dr Bhattacharya um if in fact
I'm not even gonna I was going to

[jonathan_kogan]: give him the intro here but for
the three or two people out there that

[jonathan_kogan]: don't know who you are who are
you like what's your professional background and how

[jonathan_kogan]: did you how did you become a
fringe epidemiologist oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: i'm a professor in the stanford school

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: of medicine that have been for twenty

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: some years

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: i have an m d and a
ph d in economics

[jonathan_kogan]: m

[jay_bhattacharya]: but i've been writing on effects

[jonathan_kogan]: m

[jay_bhattacharya]: is ology for basically all that

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: almost all that time on a v

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: on anabiicresistance a whole host of topics
it turns out that that the tools of

[jay_bhattacharya]: health economics are quite useful in epidemiology
i got involved

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: with covid because in the early days
of pandemic i had a

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: hypothesis that the disease was more widespread

[jonathan_kogan]: ye

[jay_bhattacharya]: then people knew i ran a study

[jonathan_kogan]: ye

[jay_bhattacharya]: in santa clair county in all county
two studies

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: three actually went also major leak baseball
nation life where we found that in santa

[jay_bhattacharya]: clara

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: and l a there were forty or
fifty times more infections than cases three percent

[jay_bhattacharya]: or four percent prevalence meaning three things
when you couldn't go to zero there's no

[jay_bhattacharya]: chance by april of twenty twenty it
was already too late to go to zero

[jonathan_kogan]: m

[jay_bhattacharya]: that it was the

[jonathan_kogan]: m

[jay_bhattacharya]: disease had a long way to go
three percent is only a small part of

[jay_bhattacharya]: the population it's going to spread to
basically everybody eventually that's an twenty twenty who

[jay_bhattacharya]: do that anyways that got me involved
in the debate pretty pretty substantially and october

[jay_bhattacharya]: twenty twenty i wrote a a document
called a great barrington declaration with senetrahoopda

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: she's a fantastic epicnologist at oxford i
think of chair and theoretical epitucnology there and

[jay_bhattacharya]: martin

[jonathan_kogan]: m

[jay_bhattacharya]: cooldorf

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: at harvard is amazing the knowlege bias
atisition and the argument was we should have

[jay_bhattacharya]: there's a thousandfold difference in the risk
of severe disease there is and older people

[jay_bhattacharya]: a much higher risk of dying than
younger people from covidnow same time the lockdowns

[jay_bhattacharya]: are tremendously harmful closing schools really hurts
kids doesn't really protect them against covid which

[jay_bhattacharya]: is not that severe risk compared to
the risks that come from closing schools so

[jay_bhattacharya]: i wrote that and then four days
after i wrote that tens of thousands doctors

[jay_bhattacharya]: signed on

[jonathan_kogan]: m

[jay_bhattacharya]: and you know i think we all
just signed on

[jonathan_kogan]: ye

[jay_bhattacharya]: but then francis collins the head of
the national inset of health

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: he he

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: didn't like it very much so he
wrote an email to

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: tony fouche calling me sentry group don
martin goldorf fringe

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: epitneologist

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: calling for a devastating take down of
the premises of the declaration and i started

[jay_bhattacharya]: getting hate mail i started getting reporters
asking me why

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: why i wanted to kill grandma it
was really nasty but i think it opened

[jay_bhattacharya]: up a discussion and certainly what it
did is at it it let everybody know

[jay_bhattacharya]: that it wasn't the lockdowns we followed
were not a consensus among aniologists although you

[jay_bhattacharya]: might have thought that from the press
accounts that all reasonable epinal thought that we

[jay_bhattacharya]: should lock down in fact a substantial
portion of everything jsthught was the wrong strategy

[jay_bhattacharya]: and i think that's why rancis collins
wrote that email he wanted to essentially create

[jay_bhattacharya]: an illusion that there was a consensus
in science about lock down when there never

[jay_bhattacharya]: was an it's anyways we are where
we are they unfortunately on the policy fight

[jay_bhattacharya]: they got their lock downs in october
twenty twenty and the damage that we're seeing

[jay_bhattacharya]: from learning laws from from economic damage
to starvation in poor countries essentially every poor

[jay_bhattacharya]: person in the face of the earth
was harmed by the lockdowns it's it wasn't

[jay_bhattacharya]: necessary places that didn't have conan policy
didn't do worse like you know france in

[jay_bhattacharya]: sweden or florida sweden didn't do worse
than the rest of europe in fact i

[jay_bhattacharya]: did better than the rest of the
rope before did about as well as california

[jay_bhattacharya]: as far as the disease itself goes
but their kids stayed in school all the

[jay_bhattacharya]: time anyway that's that's that's where we
are i'm now have a i don't know

[jay_bhattacharya]: if i have my friend of mine
sent me a card that says fringe epicneology

[jonathan_kogan]: uh

[jay_bhattacharya]: on it i think i like the
title

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: better than professor help balls for dinner

[jonathan_kogan]: that's funny so

[jay_bhattacharya]: yeah

[jonathan_kogan]: you talk about this a lot the
the illusion of consensus so i think unfortunately

[jonathan_kogan]: as hard as to believe i still
think there a decent amount of the population

[jonathan_kogan]: that thinks it's

[jay_bhattacharya]: oh

[jonathan_kogan]: consensus and they don't know it's an
illusion of consensus so what do you mean

[jonathan_kogan]: by an illusion of consensus and and
and how did they how did they get

[jonathan_kogan]: away with that yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: well i think the government used its
power to push social media to censor alternate

[jay_bhattacharya]: viewpoints push essentially its propaganda into newspapers
making mainstream newspapers they had you know a

[jay_bhattacharya]: ticker for like how many coviddeths there
were but no ticker for how many starvation

[jay_bhattacharya]: deaths there were or how many kids
lost lost educational opportunities or you know the

[jay_bhattacharya]: consequences of that the long term consequence
of that your tremendous so it used its

[jay_bhattacharya]: power in fact i think it actually
violated the first amendment john and i think

[jay_bhattacharya]: the we have a law suit that
the missouri attorney general in louisiana torney general

[jay_bhattacharya]: it's file against the federal government where
they worked closely with social media directing social

[jay_bhattacharya]: media telling it what

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: to suppress what ideas to suppress sometimes
what people to suppress that is how the

[jay_bhattacharya]: illusion of concenseas

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: created by censuring and delegitimizing fringe voices
which should have we should have had a

[jay_bhattacharya]: regular

[jonathan_kogan]: fridge

[jay_bhattacharya]: conversation fringe

[jonathan_kogan]: so um so yeah that's that's eric
smit is that right is that who the

[jonathan_kogan]: attorney general

[jay_bhattacharya]: eric

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: the trnisothelist

[jonathan_kogan]: i think they're going to depose dr
fouche and some others that recently came out

[jonathan_kogan]: which is which is good news so
you talked a lot about about lock downs

[jonathan_kogan]: and how those draconian measures were absolutely
the incorrect decision and we have the date

[jonathan_kogan]: back that and people don't realize and
what's really frustrating me you just touched on

[jonathan_kogan]: it but i just want to re
emphasize it which is

[jay_bhattacharya]: oh

[jonathan_kogan]: you know you got that he mail
that oh you want to you know let

[jonathan_kogan]: the virus rip or you know hurt
grandma which is the furthest thing from the

[jonathan_kogan]: truth obviously and uh but yet they
don't think about the grandma in a poor

[jonathan_kogan]: country that then you know can't afford
food that day and then starve like which

[jonathan_kogan]: gram was like you know who we
talking about here like like it's a very

[jonathan_kogan]: it's a bubble at least in at
least in the united states but this was

[jonathan_kogan]: international which is bizarre and it seems
totally like orchestrated in concert it's very weird

[jonathan_kogan]: of what happens but but but we
just dismiss the harsher measures of lockdowns and

[jonathan_kogan]: so you wanted you have this let's
say crusade of wanting to make lockdowns a

[jonathan_kogan]: bad word remove it from the tool
box how do we start that branding and

[jonathan_kogan]: marketing campaign how do we remove that
tool from ever being used again have you

[jonathan_kogan]: thought of any ideas on that

[jay_bhattacharya]: well i think first you have to
scientific

[jonathan_kogan]: ah

[jay_bhattacharya]: document

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: the hans and a lot of people
have started to do that the harms as

[jay_bhattacharya]: you said to starvation that in march
at twenty twenty one the i think was

[jay_bhattacharya]: the u n put out an estimate
the two hundred and thirty thousand children had

[jay_bhattacharya]: died of starvation in south asia alone
the economic dislocation caused by the lock downs

[jay_bhattacharya]: you know you have people living very
close to poverty you disrupt an economy people

[jay_bhattacharya]: at the very bottom making you two
dollars a day or less of income that

[jay_bhattacharya]: suffer the most than they suffer and
die do large large numbers the world health

[jay_bhattacharya]: organization really bears a lot of the
brunt of this they should have been speaking

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: for those people the poorest countries on
earth and they didn't they were more focused

[jay_bhattacharya]: on the disease control

[jonathan_kogan]: m

[jay_bhattacharya]: not on overall health which is really
their mission m um so i think the

[jay_bhattacharya]: in order to do that we need
to have a conversation both internationally and nationally

[jay_bhattacharya]: we need to have a honest evaluation
where the evaluation isn't conduct by the people

[jay_bhattacharya]: who implemented the policy that pap themselves
in back re

[jonathan_kogan]: m

[jay_bhattacharya]: conducted by people who from a very
wide range of viewpoints the next thing i

[jay_bhattacharya]: think is we have to shatter this
this tool that governments have used to create

[jay_bhattacharya]: this illusion of consensus in our society
science is tremendously powerful it's essentially

[jonathan_kogan]: m

[jay_bhattacharya]: the new clericy right if

[jonathan_kogan]: m

[jay_bhattacharya]: you have the science saying do

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: x that will do x even if

[jonathan_kogan]: my

[jay_bhattacharya]: x is the wrong thing to do
if you do it in

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: the name of the science then there's
no way to question is like

[jonathan_kogan]: and then

[jay_bhattacharya]: it's like

[jonathan_kogan]: the un in the un recently declared
that they owned the science so that's probably

[jonathan_kogan]: not very good uh

[jay_bhattacharya]: i mean the science

[jonathan_kogan]: h

[jay_bhattacharya]: is owned by everybody it's a common
heritage

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: all mankind i think so you have
a really distorted view by governments of how

[jay_bhattacharya]: it can control scientific discourse essentially if
you have a new dark age science that's

[jay_bhattacharya]: control from above is not science it's
essentially dogma and what you have is is

[jay_bhattacharya]: that dogma has ruled during the pandemic
we need to restore the proper place of

[jay_bhattacharya]: free discussion within science just for instance
if you fund scientific work like tony fouche

[jay_bhattacharya]: or francis collins you find scientific work
you should not be involved with health policy

[jay_bhattacharya]: that's a deep conflict

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: of interest tony fouche says i believe
the science is x and we should do

[jay_bhattacharya]: and people's careers depend on it tremendous
billions and tens of billions of dollars go

[jay_bhattacharya]: to scientists whose careers have a h
h i have a full professorship at stanford

[jay_bhattacharya]: the reason one of the easons i
have it is because i was successful in

[jay_bhattacharya]: getting nigh grants

[jonathan_kogan]: you

[jay_bhattacharya]: it's

[jonathan_kogan]: say that's like required for that position

[jay_bhattacharya]: i mean it's not it's not strictly
required but it's pretty much it's pretty much

[jay_bhattacharya]: requires very

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: hard to get tenure without that and
in the medical school

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: at top universities so you have you
have a situation where a small group of

[jay_bhattacharya]: people like tony fouche and francis collins
can control the minds and utterances of a

[jay_bhattacharya]: tremendous number of

[jonathan_kogan]: ye

[jay_bhattacharya]: scientist you may disagree with them but
want

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: to stay silent

[jonathan_kogan]: god

[jay_bhattacharya]: because the wan to protect their careers
it's a deep conflict of interest at least

[jay_bhattacharya]: as bad as having you say fyzor
tell the the f d a what to

[jay_bhattacharya]: do and the just follows along you
have to have a bright red line separating

[jonathan_kogan]: ye

[jay_bhattacharya]: ience funders from science policy the conflict
if it just too great and the the

[jay_bhattacharya]: sort of inclination for government to use
its essential it's like you five thousand pounds

[jay_bhattacharya]: i like throw its weight around among
the claiming to act in the name of

[jay_bhattacharya]: the science is too great and it's
harmful to the public interest

[jonathan_kogan]: so i how important so to start
this off in my opinion it starts with

[jonathan_kogan]: you can't have this discussion unless you
start off with accountability i think i feel

[jonathan_kogan]: like accountability is impaired but i could
be wrong do you think that how important

[jonathan_kogan]: is accountability

[jay_bhattacharya]: yeah

[jonathan_kogan]: in this course to correct things

[jay_bhattacharya]: i know i tend to be of
the mind that people i mean i think

[jay_bhattacharya]: i think if someone broke the law
then then they should face whatever the law

[jay_bhattacharya]: says but i don't think generally most
doctors and panowlodge and scientists were doing consciously

[jay_bhattacharya]: evil things i don't believe i mean
i've heard talk of nuremburg to i don't

[jay_bhattacharya]: believe in that i don't think the
best constructive way forward the way i think

[jay_bhattacharya]: about this is you know after a
patient dies and medicine what sometimes happens is

[jay_bhattacharya]: the doctors who manage the patient will
get together and have a very pointed discussion

[jay_bhattacharya]: where game isn't to blame somebody for
killing the patient of the aim is to

[jay_bhattacharya]: figure out at went wrong and then

[jonathan_kogan]: ye

[jay_bhattacharya]: do better i think we're going to
have much better outcomes if we follow that

[jay_bhattacharya]: spirit rather than trying to say okay
you are you you are to blame you

[jay_bhattacharya]: shouldn't do this i think the outcome
of that

[jonathan_kogan]: uh

[jay_bhattacharya]: process will be the lock downs will
ll repudiate lockdowns as a strategy because it's

[jay_bhattacharya]: just jectively tremendously harmful didn't really stop
the spread of the disease and at the

[jay_bhattacharya]: same time i think we'll start to
see these conflicts of interest but i didn't

[jay_bhattacharya]: really think most people didn't realize existed
before the pandemic or the use of social

[jay_bhattacharya]: media to create scientific consensus the control
of socially like government to create scientific case

[jay_bhattacharya]: that i think all of that needs
to get reformed pretty fundamentally the accountability then

[jay_bhattacharya]: is reforms that change structures and incentives
not not individual people i think that's much

[jay_bhattacharya]: less constructive

[jonathan_kogan]: right yeah i guess i phrase that
i guess i meant more from accountability from

[jonathan_kogan]: the high up maybe you know not
directly even like dr fouche but just how

[jonathan_kogan]: the system is so centralized that's the
problem you know where it starts and we

[jonathan_kogan]: actually need to rebuild these institutions or
you know to rebuild this trust we probably

[jonathan_kogan]: need to rebuild the institutions or build
new ones whatever it might be it's going

[jonathan_kogan]: to look a lot different for the
next

[jay_bhattacharya]: yeah

[jonathan_kogan]: years than it did the previous eight
years so you've

[jay_bhattacharya]: absolutely

[jonathan_kogan]: been doing this right

[jay_bhattacharya]: absolutely

[jonathan_kogan]: and and you've been you've been oing
this for decades is this so a lot

[jonathan_kogan]: of what's happened i've been totally oblivious
to till twenty twenty i'd say like the

[jonathan_kogan]: overreach and with government an stuff like
that i mean just a lot of i

[jonathan_kogan]: almost feel like i really really feel
like we're living like an inverted reality where

[jonathan_kogan]: like everything is opposite it's like really
bizarre like i almost feel like if you

[jonathan_kogan]: did everything opposite to what you were
told to do you would have been very

[jonathan_kogan]: very successful it's really weird it's almost
like spot on but is this something that

[jonathan_kogan]: you noticed like the power build up
the centralization have you did you see us

[jonathan_kogan]: building up over the decades or is
this kind of like came out of nowhere

[jonathan_kogan]: and s like whoa we just didn't
realize you know all these tentacles were kind

[jonathan_kogan]: of tied to the same place

[jay_bhattacharya]: i mean i you know when you're
a fish you don't notice the water right

[jay_bhattacharya]: on swimming

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: in this in this fish tank i
would say like looking back over my career

[jay_bhattacharya]: the n h was less intrusive back
in when i first started they were much

[jay_bhattacharya]: more open to investigators coming bringing their
own ideas that may be not necessarily

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: corresponded with exactly what he wanted and
it moved in the direction of centralized sin

[jay_bhattacharya]: you know francis collins the head of
the n e since i think two thousand

[jay_bhattacharya]: and eight he is most famous for
the human geno project the human geno project

[jay_bhattacharya]: is as a massive project of centralize
science where a whole bunch of scientists very

[jay_bhattacharya]: smart scientists spent decade or more on
one idea one project he brought that concentration

[jay_bhattacharya]: of power into the n i think
and transformed it into this bohemia where you

[jay_bhattacharya]: have essentially

[jonathan_kogan]: m

[jay_bhattacharya]: uh you know cartels in the whole
bunch of fields the control research agenda is

[jay_bhattacharya]: supposed to being open to ideas outside
the center from the fringe occasionally

[jonathan_kogan]: uh

[jay_bhattacharya]: you have to have that

[jonathan_kogan]: uh

[jay_bhattacharya]: in science you have to it

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: challenges to the central dogmas that's how
science advances even if it doesn't it's uncomfortable

[jay_bhattacharya]: because it will change power her hierarchies
and science i think that's really the main

[jay_bhattacharya]: resistance we're going to face if you
have

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: that this breaking up of concentrated power
you're gonna have a lot of people who

[jay_bhattacharya]: are at the top of that hierarchy
not want that to happen

[jonathan_kogan]: right and and and you you've you've
talked about this previously i think but that

[jonathan_kogan]: in order to correct this core i
keep saying this course i can't even another

[jonathan_kogan]: way but the correctest path or to
you know make things right as best as

[jonathan_kogan]: we can maybe we need new leadership
in the ight it's hard to do it

[jonathan_kogan]: from the very same people that enforce
these lock downs and now we want to

[jonathan_kogan]: correct things but yet there still empower
that's not going to be so easy

[jay_bhattacharya]: no but i don't think they'll stay
in power for much longer tony

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: foci stepping down december francis

[jonathan_kogan]: well

[jay_bhattacharya]: colin

[jonathan_kogan]: he's only like eighty years old oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: he's like to i don't know

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: how

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: but but i think it's not the
age it's the power like

[jonathan_kogan]: ye

[jay_bhattacharya]: this is impolite but i think of
him as like j edgar fouche like he

[jonathan_kogan]: ye

[jay_bhattacharya]: is and government were so

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: long and he knows how to use
the bioocricy to get his way i mean

[jay_bhattacharya]: just tremendously

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: clever at that

[jonathan_kogan]: you know did you know this during
the because you were you were doing work

[jonathan_kogan]: in the hive aids epidemic was that
did you notice the same tactics than in

[jonathan_kogan]: real time or looking back you do
or neither

[jay_bhattacharya]: i mean i personally wasn't affected by
because i first i was a junior researcher

[jay_bhattacharya]: way at the bottom of of the
know to pole and i was not plying

[jay_bhattacharya]: for funding from tony fauces agency there's
other agents my main funding has come from

[jay_bhattacharya]: the national suit of a is another
n h agency

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: um

[jonathan_kogan]: it all

[jay_bhattacharya]: o

[jonathan_kogan]: goes back

[jay_bhattacharya]: yeah i mean weirdly because they were

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: interested in what h i v and
older people and i was interested in that

[jay_bhattacharya]: too so that's why that's why i
looked from from that i think i think

[jay_bhattacharya]: that the concentration has become worse over
time i think that the the amount of

[jay_bhattacharya]: power that's been thrown around that could
be naive i mean maybe it was really

[jay_bhattacharya]: bad back then to and i just
didn't see it that's certainly possible but i

[jay_bhattacharya]: don't think so i think i don't
think i would have ever expected to see

[jay_bhattacharya]: um legitimate scientist discussion squashed with you
know essentially innuendo fridge up it neology just

[jay_bhattacharya]: openly

[jonathan_kogan]: uh huh right

[jay_bhattacharya]: that's that's pretty new to me

[jonathan_kogan]: and i heard this in the document
the real anthony found you but though i

[jonathan_kogan]: was really interesting which is that propaganda
requires censorship for it to work you need

[jonathan_kogan]: to have censorship and the the amount
of centreship we've seen in science science i

[jonathan_kogan]: don't like

[jay_bhattacharya]: as

[jonathan_kogan]: by the way when you learned about
science scoring up was there a picture of

[jonathan_kogan]: anthony fouche in the text

[jay_bhattacharya]: oh

[jonathan_kogan]: book

[jay_bhattacharya]: h

[jonathan_kogan]: but which

[jay_bhattacharya]: actually

[jonathan_kogan]: is by

[jay_bhattacharya]: that by the way was absolutely shocking
i mean like

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: absolute humors of a man to say
you know

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: if you contradict me you're not simply
contradicting man

[jonathan_kogan]: uh

[jay_bhattacharya]: your contracting science

[jonathan_kogan]: h

[jay_bhattacharya]: and so i mean

[jonathan_kogan]: ah

[jay_bhattacharya]: who says that

[jonathan_kogan]: well you didn't know that

[jay_bhattacharya]: i did not know that

[jonathan_kogan]: well that's why you're fringed so but
this one will be more interet beaus you're

[jonathan_kogan]: not so we've seen this i don't
want to i don't really want to use

[jonathan_kogan]: that corruption moving this chaos or in
the science field in baracricy and government how

[jonathan_kogan]: does the media and journalism fitting to
all this because you would think that is

[jonathan_kogan]: a check on the on the extreme
power of you know the especially the government

[jonathan_kogan]: but in the science in any field
but yet not only were they complicit i

[jonathan_kogan]: felt like they were a cheer leader
for everything that the powers that be i

[jonathan_kogan]: don't e now what to call it
wanted to do and do you feel the

[jonathan_kogan]: same way

[jay_bhattacharya]: they absolutely were i mean i think
there's a dynamic here play right so if

[jay_bhattacharya]: you have concentrated power within science it
actually makes life much easier for main stream

[jay_bhattacharya]: supporters they just need to go talk
to the top just find out wat's going

[jay_bhattacharya]: on but the flip side of that
is that then they can't actually tell the

[jay_bhattacharya]: people at the top that they're doing
something wrong because then they lose access so

[jay_bhattacharya]: you have

[jonathan_kogan]: m

[jay_bhattacharya]: this like this happens with war like
i remember during the run up to the

[jay_bhattacharya]: rack war c n n was admitted
that it sort of fudge the news because

[jay_bhattacharya]: it wanted to be able to stay
in

[jonathan_kogan]: uh

[jay_bhattacharya]: bagdad

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: i mean i think that dynamic

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: is first it's an abdication of responsibility

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: that that journalists have their job is
to hold power to account at least in

[jay_bhattacharya]: part even if it hurts their political
leanings and i think they certainly did not

[jay_bhattacharya]: do that during the pandemic in fact
i think as you said here led for

[jay_bhattacharya]: the lockdowns and other other i strategies
and i think they when tony touch and

[jay_bhattacharya]: francis collins that we were friends they
jumped to it like you know who are

[jay_bhattacharya]: we were we're friends you harvard stanford

[jonathan_kogan]: h

[jay_bhattacharya]: oxford i mean that's obviously

[jonathan_kogan]: h

[jay_bhattacharya]: fringe so you have to

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: you have to like you have to
like understand like if they give us a

[jay_bhattacharya]: fair hearing then tony found he doesn't
talk to them you have to talk to

[jay_bhattacharya]: somebody else

[jonathan_kogan]: really you can't just talk to both
sides i

[jay_bhattacharya]: i mean

[jonathan_kogan]: understand

[jay_bhattacharya]: i think this is this this is
not a unique thing within science

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: and journalism

[jonathan_kogan]: yea

[jay_bhattacharya]: is i think the key thing is
the concentrations of power you have multipolar power

[jay_bhattacharya]: centers where scientists discuss with each other
with different points of view journalists have to

[jay_bhattacharya]: cover that they can't they can't just
go to the center sale who's on the

[jay_bhattacharya]: fringe and who's in the center and
just like in the past years what's happened

[jay_bhattacharya]: is

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: i think part because of the

[jonathan_kogan]: ah

[jay_bhattacharya]: global warning debate and some

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: other debates has happened is journalist have
have been very very

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: careful about legitimizing what they view as
fringe science and you know i don't see

[jay_bhattacharya]: i mean i think there's some legitimately
fringe science there's legitimate people who are saying

[jay_bhattacharya]: things that are not just don't make
any sense

[jonathan_kogan]: but that's not this case at all

[jay_bhattacharya]: no

[jonathan_kogan]: right

[jay_bhattacharya]: but i have to say like journalists
are not good at telling the difference how

[jay_bhattacharya]: do they know and science itself also
changes over time right because you find you

[jay_bhattacharya]: have new new data new discoveries was
one fringe is now the center

[jonathan_kogan]: right

[jay_bhattacharya]: so you have up you have to
add a journalism that understand science it can't

[jay_bhattacharya]: prejudge science it's not capable of it
actually it's just to be clear nobody's capable

[jay_bhattacharya]: of it who knows right when i
was in medical school i was taught that

[jay_bhattacharya]: the if you haven't or a stomach
also should treat it with you know don't

[jay_bhattacharya]: eat chocolate stop drinking coffee and if
things are really bad you can cut your

[jay_bhattacharya]: vega vegal nerves like to stop the
innovation to the i'm a m which now

[jay_bhattacharya]: that you're just taking

[jonathan_kogan]: ye

[jay_bhattacharya]: anaboticright you have this prior i mean
i think

[jonathan_kogan]: right

[jay_bhattacharya]: you could go through the medicine

[jonathan_kogan]: ye

[jay_bhattacharya]: with from the now over the last
hundreds of years and you'll see central dogmas

[jay_bhattacharya]: overturned over and over and over again
um it's not it's actually quite dangerous for

[jay_bhattacharya]: journalists to prejudge this process

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: and they're not capable of it they
don't have the capacity to tell the difference

[jay_bhattacharya]: being true and false and so the
right thing to

[jonathan_kogan]: i

[jay_bhattacharya]: do then it's just to cover the
discussion and if they get it wrong sometimes

[jay_bhattacharya]: than they you know put fringe people
up on top occasionally be that's better than

[jay_bhattacharya]: the alternative which is to never let
true things that are outside the center come

[jay_bhattacharya]: to the attention of the public

[jonathan_kogan]: but then how do you explain like
deliberate i don't hit pieces or i don't

[jonathan_kogan]: even now if you say definitely but
like with

[jay_bhattacharya]: yeah

[jonathan_kogan]: the great barrington declaration there is very
clear we need and i know it original

[jonathan_kogan]: comes from that email that you reference
but like the media has to look i

[jonathan_kogan]: mean you call the most least original
work you've ever done right it was like

[jonathan_kogan]: the pandemic manual for all pandemics prior
to this one that went bizarly terribly right

[jonathan_kogan]: like just awful but yeah it came
out like you fringe and all this stuff

[jonathan_kogan]: which is if you actually read it
and you see who's a part of it

[jonathan_kogan]: you would get the opposite interpretation of
it so how there has to be some

[jonathan_kogan]: accountability with the media in that respect
right

[jay_bhattacharya]: well i think the media can start
by just covering the you know you can't

[jay_bhattacharya]: go back in time but maybe you
can start covering things fairly

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: right you know with the rack war
for instance is good good but of

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: this right they were their leaders for
the arak war on the run up to

[jay_bhattacharya]: it and then over time they started
started questioning it he started to get a

[jay_bhattacharya]: much fuller narrative around it and that
changed public opinion i think that the media

[jay_bhattacharya]: could do that here they got it
wrong and they need to understand they got

[jay_bhattacharya]: it wrong and then start to start
to bring that back

[jonathan_kogan]: m

[jay_bhattacharya]: it may not be the people that
covered the pandemic

[jonathan_kogan]: m

[jay_bhattacharya]: incorrectly you know the atlantic or the
new york times panic monger people

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: won't trust them any more when they're
talking about about you know this kind of

[jay_bhattacharya]: policy there may be other media sources
that do that but that is happening and

[jay_bhattacharya]: it will happen i think panic mongers
are losing credibility because they really deeply got

[jay_bhattacharya]: everything on as you said like there's
it's hard to imagine getting every single thing

[jay_bhattacharya]: wrong

[jonathan_kogan]: uh

[jay_bhattacharya]: but that is exactly what happened

[jonathan_kogan]: uh it's opposite it was literally

[jay_bhattacharya]: yeah

[jonathan_kogan]: it was so like it's hard to
get it's hard to get everything right but

[jonathan_kogan]: it's just as hard to get everything
wrong it's hard to be a hundred percent

[jonathan_kogan]: in either direction and i feel like
he on a something wrong like it was

[jonathan_kogan]: absolutely

[jay_bhattacharya]: oh

[jonathan_kogan]: extraordinarily interesting

[jay_bhattacharya]: i'm i've been trying to think about
the intellectual air involved

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: the key thing i think actually goes
we've been taking

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: about a little i think it goes
back to that in effect sese epidemiology because

[jay_bhattacharya]: of how bad the epidemic was the
people at the very

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: top of the field made their bones
working on h v that tony touch of

[jay_bhattacharya]: course very famous la devi burks who
as the white house passport coordinator she was

[jay_bhattacharya]: the head of pep bar which is
just like initiative by president bush to say

[jay_bhattacharya]: aids drugs to africa very successful and
save millions of lives

[jonathan_kogan]: m m

[jay_bhattacharya]: robert redfield all of them were people
who had a lot of experience and success

[jay_bhattacharya]: with a v not that it was
particularly successful so many people still die but

[jay_bhattacharya]: you know we made a lot of
corgresst so you have you have

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: a group of people whose instincts are
to think like h i v and they

[jay_bhattacharya]: brought those instincts to covid but it
didn't work right for h i v

[jonathan_kogan]: m

[jay_bhattacharya]: you have like all of the you
get h i v and then five years

[jay_bhattacharya]: later

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: you get eights that during that time
unless you have a test you don't you

[jay_bhattacharya]: don't know most of the spread for
h v is a symptomatic you attesting is

[jay_bhattacharya]: like absolutely key like you find people
at high risk can test them and you

[jay_bhattacharya]: can identify it so they can alter
their behavior and not spread it contact tracing

[jay_bhattacharya]: is really important you pretty much know
who you got from or the set of

[jay_bhattacharya]: people who might have better too because
of how it spread

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: all of those assumptions about with h
v there's no immunity after you get h

[jay_bhattacharya]: v in fact it kills your mune
system essentially all of those instincts for h

[jay_bhattacharya]: v are maladaptive in the context of
covid because covidis not

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: like that you get immunity after after
you get ovid and recover it's not perfect

[jay_bhattacharya]: but it produces produces pretty good immunity
against severe disease and death the next time

[jay_bhattacharya]: you get go vid you most of
the spread of this is not a symptomatic

[jay_bhattacharya]: there's some a sintromatic but it's not
but it's not primarily syntematic contact tracing i

[jay_bhattacharya]: mean you bread hear me and you
don't get

[jonathan_kogan]: m

[jay_bhattacharya]: it i mean that's just i mean
is you know who know who you gave

[jay_bhattacharya]: it to or it just doesn't make
any sense soon as like the number of

[jay_bhattacharya]: cases go up the contact

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: traces get overwhelmed you know in the
end

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: you know you have this like um
it's just like every instinct was wrong because

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: they had the wrong mental model

[jonathan_kogan]: m

[jay_bhattacharya]: the other mental moll i think they
had with ars one which sort of died

[jay_bhattacharya]: away because by itself because i think
it didn't spread by airisols the way that

[jay_bhattacharya]: this virus does

[jonathan_kogan]: hm

[jay_bhattacharya]: and so they just they had the
wrong mental model you know early on such

[jay_bhattacharya]: a january february

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: there you read you read like you
go back and read people like tony tout

[jay_bhattacharya]: they're like well it's going to be
fine don't worry so much wash your hands

[jay_bhattacharya]: um and then you know they ring
the alarm bells in march what changed was

[jay_bhattacharya]: already too late by march twenty twenty
the disease was basically everywhere in the

[jonathan_kogan]: you proved that with your studies

[jay_bhattacharya]: yeah exactly

[jonathan_kogan]: was the three per cent it was

[jay_bhattacharya]: yeah

[jonathan_kogan]: too late to lock down and stop
it even if that was a measure to

[jonathan_kogan]: take that basically nold and it should
have just we shouldn't do anything it's already

[jonathan_kogan]: out right wasn't

[jay_bhattacharya]: ah

[jonathan_kogan]: that the

[jay_bhattacharya]: well

[jonathan_kogan]: purpose

[jay_bhattacharya]: but it then what that means is
the lock downs what best way they use

[jay_bhattacharya]: to push the cases out to the
future worst with what they do is they

[jay_bhattacharya]: just they know if you're if you're
not laptop class if you have a working

[jay_bhattacharya]: class

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: you know single mom or whatever in
school closes you're gonna have to work anyways

[jay_bhattacharya]: spite of lock down

[jonathan_kogan]: isn't this kind of like australia would
that would that be an example of that

[jay_bhattacharya]: well australia it was

[jonathan_kogan]: pushing

[jay_bhattacharya]: an interesting

[jonathan_kogan]: it

[jay_bhattacharya]: case because it actually got to zero
in part because it

[jonathan_kogan]: m

[jay_bhattacharya]: hit australia in their in their summer
or in there in

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: there like a like autumn our our
winter like their summer our winter the disease

[jay_bhattacharya]: seems to spread much more efficiently in
the summer and in the winter so when

[jay_bhattacharya]: australia locked down it hadn't seeded very
much and i actually did get to zero

[jay_bhattacharya]: put them in a trap actually for
two years there's a single case they locked

[jay_bhattacharya]: down harshly melbourne had two hundred and
seventy days of lock down draconian lock down

[jay_bhattacharya]: that there was a an apartment building
you know developed now housing developed poor people

[jay_bhattacharya]: that they locked they closed

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: it and wouldn't let anybody out for
five days for a week even though people

[jay_bhattacharya]: they had no access to food

[jonathan_kogan]: a

[jay_bhattacharya]: it was just unbelievable the civil rights
violations were tricked emendous

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: but they

[jonathan_kogan]: it's just civil liberty is not a
big deal

[jay_bhattacharya]: the funny

[jonathan_kogan]: your

[jay_bhattacharya]: thing

[jonathan_kogan]: freedom

[jay_bhattacharya]: is they now through the pandemic have
ad more cases per capita than the united

[jay_bhattacharya]: states the lock down delayed their vaccination
campaign they thought they had zerocovid so there's

[jay_bhattacharya]: no need to rush to vaccinate and
so instead of vaccinating by cia march twywentyone

[jay_bhattacharya]: and opening up they didn't start their
vaccination campaign in earnest until like september october

[jay_bhattacharya]: twenty twenty one they had like a
full nine extra months

[jonathan_kogan]: m

[jay_bhattacharya]: lock down threats it was completely unnecessary

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: they could have vaccinated at their old
protected the vulnerable as we said in the

[jay_bhattacharya]: great

[jonathan_kogan]: ye

[jay_bhattacharya]: barn ton equation folks protection was vulnerable
and then and then lifted the lock downs

[jay_bhattacharya]: avoiding tremendous to the especially the poor
and the and the working class populations

[jonathan_kogan]: so

[jay_bhattacharya]: oh

[jonathan_kogan]: so you know you've done a lot
of interview stuff like that so as time

[jonathan_kogan]: continues to move on as time does
are you becoming more optimistic that we are

[jonathan_kogan]: starting to hender right direction or is
it kind of hard to tell if it's

[jonathan_kogan]: if we if we're in a better
place or are heading in the right direction

[jay_bhattacharya]: no

[jonathan_kogan]: do you think we're correct in course
a little bit better i don't

[jay_bhattacharya]: well

[jonathan_kogan]: know that

[jay_bhattacharya]: i think except for china the entire
world has adopted the great grant necolation not

[jay_bhattacharya]: everybody

[jonathan_kogan]: okay

[jay_bhattacharya]: has said that but that's exactly what
we've done

[jonathan_kogan]: israel

[jay_bhattacharya]: so the de facto policy

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: is the great guarantee declaration right we're
not actually trying to suppress the zero that's

[jay_bhattacharya]: that everyone understands that's foolish for the
chinese

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: we're not we're not we are starting
to acknowledge the lock down homes finally in

[jay_bhattacharya]: the harms to the poor the chip
to children in the working class that that's

[jay_bhattacharya]: starting to happen and this idea deploying
resources to protect vulnerable people that

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: that that idea has started to catch
on much more than then the idea like

[jay_bhattacharya]: universal suppression to help what talk glass
out

[jonathan_kogan]: right

[jay_bhattacharya]: so i think that de facto policy
is shifted what hasn't shifted in many places

[jay_bhattacharya]: is an acknowledgement that the de facto
policy is shifted right so

[jonathan_kogan]: m

[jay_bhattacharya]: we've changed our policy but governments haven't

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: told us that we've done it so
that's why some of the malt you're seeing

[jay_bhattacharya]: around in the discussion around this is
still there it's going to happen i mean

[jay_bhattacharya]: i think you know eventually the reader
catches up with the de facto policy

[jonathan_kogan]: and do you think that has to
happen do they have to acknowledge it for

[jonathan_kogan]: the course to fully be correct i
mean is that is

[jay_bhattacharya]: duke

[jonathan_kogan]: that a required step

[jay_bhattacharya]: the required step absolutely the people that
push the policy

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: loton policy may not be the ones
to admit it i'll give you a model

[jay_bhattacharya]: of this in alberta canada there is
a new premier daniel smith i think to

[jay_bhattacharya]: replace chris kenny she the first thing
she did when you got into power when

[jay_bhattacharya]: the first ting shed she apologized for
the lockdowns and i told the people that

[jay_bhattacharya]: were fired in the state and you
know the province that who worked for the

[jay_bhattacharya]: government that if they fired because of
the vaccine mandate that they would re hire

[jay_bhattacharya]: them or you know what do we
hire them i think it's new leadership that

[jay_bhattacharya]: did that did this and as a
result i think the alberta

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: people will trust public health

[jonathan_kogan]: ye

[jay_bhattacharya]: more it may not be the same
people who implemented the lock downs to admit

[jay_bhattacharya]: that there was a mistake i think
that's probably too much to ask but uh

[jay_bhattacharya]: what we're seeing i think place after
place is the politicians that pushed the lock

[jay_bhattacharya]: downs is not universal but in many
places politicians that pushed the lock down are

[jay_bhattacharya]: leaving power like boris johnson leaves not
because of the lockdowns but because

[jonathan_kogan]: i

[jay_bhattacharya]: the party right but andrew coma leaves
not because of the crazy sending ovid infected

[jay_bhattacharya]: patients to nursing homes because

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: of some more sexual sexual

[jonathan_kogan]: ah

[jay_bhattacharya]: harassment thing

[jonathan_kogan]: m

[jay_bhattacharya]: you have you have or in australia

[jay_bhattacharya]: was like the banking on his name
in the former career is replaced by a

[jay_bhattacharya]: tony albanese who the former premier of
course adopts a policy of letting the states

[jay_bhattacharya]: decide what to do essentially defective representing
a lock down just into ardent in new

[jay_bhattacharya]: zealand apparently is under

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: political trouble you know the lock down
the people who push the lock down

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: there they may not it may not
be explicit why it may lock downs explicitly

[jay_bhattacharya]: that leads to their outer but the
lock downs play very commonent

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: role in the political troubles that the
lock down the lock down political leaders have

[jay_bhattacharya]: so it's not again not an accident
that you can see someone like rondesantis apparently

[jay_bhattacharya]: cruising to reelection in florida famously stood
up against the lock downs i think that

[jay_bhattacharya]: it's a funny thing it the politics
doesn't always it's not exactly

[jonathan_kogan]: ye

[jay_bhattacharya]: always on the nose but the people
who replace the leaders that led the lock

[jay_bhattacharya]: downs i think will have a very
strong

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: send it to do an assessment so
that the lock

[jonathan_kogan]: m

[jay_bhattacharya]: down don't ever happen again the politics
of it favor it's weird it's like it's

[jay_bhattacharya]: not even a left right politics honest
right so like

[jonathan_kogan]: no

[jay_bhattacharya]: in the u s it is but
you

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: have a swedish social democrat government that
puts pushes a non lock down policy right

[jay_bhattacharya]: if you have you have a right

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: wing tory government in the u k
that pushes a lock down it's not clear

[jay_bhattacharya]: that it's a right left and no
reason no reason

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: it ought to have been just in
the u s it happened to be that

[jay_bhattacharya]: way i guess trump

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: was empowered

[jonathan_kogan]: that's what that's so bizarre to me
though because this is not a this is

[jonathan_kogan]: the big reason why i also started
is like the issues that are going on

[jonathan_kogan]: for the most part are not right
left it's really just like truth fiction like

[jonathan_kogan]: evaluate and and you know look at
the data or ignore it like it's just

[jonathan_kogan]: you know

[jay_bhattacharya]: yeah

[jonathan_kogan]: it's just you almost have like two
cases you brought around to santas you have

[jonathan_kogan]: florida and you have californa yah and
i think pretty much those are like opposite

[jonathan_kogan]: case studies for the most like literally
almost exact opposites

[jay_bhattacharya]: yeah

[jonathan_kogan]: is there any indication that california's decisions
did better than florida or is it not

[jonathan_kogan]: or is it perhaps the exact

[jay_bhattacharya]: ah

[jonathan_kogan]: opposite which would be right in line
with how things are going you know the

[jonathan_kogan]: past two years

[jay_bhattacharya]: it's the opposite jonson

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: like

[jonathan_kogan]: ah ah

[jay_bhattacharya]: the all cause cess depths

[jonathan_kogan]: ye

[jay_bhattacharya]: in california through the pandemic are higher
than employed i to say all kinds ccescess

[jay_bhattacharya]: are high throughout the us even florida
has i

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: think too high but i think that
points to problems in how the poor in

[jay_bhattacharya]: our country have access to health care
one of the one of the major problems

[jay_bhattacharya]: i think the pandemic is i mean
it wasn't we already knew that before but

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: really identified so i think i think
but if you look at the results

[jonathan_kogan]: i

[jay_bhattacharya]: californians didn't far better the age adjusted
ovid mortality is about the same through the

[jay_bhattacharya]: pandemic

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: in california and florida and california

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: children didn't go to school the employment
rate was like eight percent during the height

[jay_bhattacharya]: of the pandemic in california it was
like two percent in florida small businesses didn't

[jay_bhattacharya]: get crushed you have situation where california
essentially sacrificed its children its working class

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: its poor and its small business for
nothing

[jonathan_kogan]: oh my god oh my god such
a dark like it's it's hard it's really

[jonathan_kogan]: i mean this actually happened it's almost
like almost like there's a lot of times

[jonathan_kogan]: like during the day i'm really thinking
like the stuff i'm like i'm going crazy

[jonathan_kogan]: like i like something is going on
like i'm going crazy there's no way this

[jonathan_kogan]: is and but it really has happened
so speaking of california the new bill that

[jonathan_kogan]: that passed right from governor newsom i
imagine you are ere you love bill and

[jonathan_kogan]: you think the bill is great for
medicine can you can you tell me your

[jonathan_kogan]: take on that incredible bill that will
do science incredible justice yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: um so yeah so the bill is
called

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: a b twenty ninety eight it's a
bill that essentially says that if you are

[jay_bhattacharya]: practicing doctor

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: and you tell your patient misinformation which
they define as something contrary to c

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: d c guidance then

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: you can lose your license

[jonathan_kogan]: well that's good thouhbecause the c d
c has a perfect track record but go

[jonathan_kogan]: on

[jay_bhattacharya]: and you know like the bill itself
contains

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: misinformation about the relative

[jonathan_kogan]: uh uh

[jay_bhattacharya]: benefits of the vaccine i mean you
know

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: it's crazy like the uh the effect
the bill is essentially to put the government

[jay_bhattacharya]: in the in the examination room with
you when you're seen by doctor so

[jonathan_kogan]: oh my

[jay_bhattacharya]: the doctor

[jonathan_kogan]: god

[jay_bhattacharya]: then is like thinking okay

[jonathan_kogan]: ye

[jay_bhattacharya]: well this patient probably doesn't need this
thing what the c

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: d c says he probably does i
mean i know all kinds of things about

[jay_bhattacharya]: his patient that can doesn't but if
i say that he doesn't need it then

[jonathan_kogan]: m

[jay_bhattacharya]: uh yeah

[jonathan_kogan]: you're

[jay_bhattacharya]: i

[jonathan_kogan]: fired

[jay_bhattacharya]: might lose my license

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: it's so

[jonathan_kogan]: ye

[jay_bhattacharya]: it undermines trust patient patient

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: doctor trust the other thing about it
is it's funny like when governor knew some

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: sign the bill et a signing statement
e said it was just about the doctor

[jay_bhattacharya]: patient relationship all of the propagandas that
were pushing the bill they made me a

[jay_bhattacharya]: central focus of demonization and attack i
don't practice medicine i do research for a

[jay_bhattacharya]: living

[jonathan_kogan]: ah

[jay_bhattacharya]: why are they doing that well it's
not the bill is not

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: simply to to police what doctors do
it's also to make sure that the conversation

[jay_bhattacharya]: broadly doesn't contradict c v c policy
even when c c policy as gone badly

[jay_bhattacharya]: astray they want to essentially within california
suppress open scientific discussion that's the effect of

[jay_bhattacharya]: the bill even if it's not the

[jay_bhattacharya]: and like directly written literal interpretation at
all that effect will be to silence sientific

[jay_bhattacharya]: discussion on issues that the c d
c ways now

[jonathan_kogan]: are you now we talked about the
very first time we talked about the illusion

[jonathan_kogan]: of consensus i want to make sure
i know what the truth is here are

[jonathan_kogan]: is the is it actually that most
physicians and researchers and you know people associated

[jonathan_kogan]: with with medicine in california actually are
speaking out against us and are very upset

[jonathan_kogan]: and they're very loud and it's just
suppressed on social media or they've already been

[jonathan_kogan]: to platform so we don't even know
or are you kind of shocked and perhaps

[jonathan_kogan]: appalled that there isn't more there aren't
more people speaking up about this in the

[jonathan_kogan]: state of california

[jay_bhattacharya]: well it's funny the california

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: medical association came out in favor of
the bill some of the top executives are

[jonathan_kogan]: ye

[jay_bhattacharya]: our lawyers they

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: were at the french man the famous
french laundry get together with governor newsom during

[jay_bhattacharya]: the lockdowns

[jonathan_kogan]: uh

[jay_bhattacharya]: um it's and they were they were
pushing hard in favor of the

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: bill same kind i've gotten lots of
emails from you know rank and file doctors

[jay_bhattacharya]: that are very worried about what this
bill will bee and there are now a

[jay_bhattacharya]: number of law suits that have already
even filed against the bill by doctors who

[jay_bhattacharya]: upstanding because they practice in california to
say that this violates first base first amendment

[jay_bhattacharya]: rights so i think that that that
those legal challenges

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: least i hope promising i don't think
this bill should stand it seems like a

[jay_bhattacharya]: clear imposition on

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: the freedom of medical price this by
doctors in california

[jonathan_kogan]: i mean it seems completely totalitarian i
could be crazy to think this but like

[jonathan_kogan]: i just i like to tell the
audience like exactly what it just i don't

[jonathan_kogan]: even know another word it's us it's
it's beyond me it's wild

[jay_bhattacharya]: yeah it's really really strange like what's
the what's the purpose of built but there's

[jay_bhattacharya]: already male practice law so if a
doctor does something that's

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: bad for you you can you can
sue the doctor and get remedy though that

[jay_bhattacharya]: female practices you know well as well

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: trod path to do that so that
doesn't protect patients against something the purpose of

[jay_bhattacharya]: the bill is essentially to put the
government in the c d c in the

[jay_bhattacharya]: same room as a dot every doctor
doctor is scared to contradict with a c

[jay_bhattacharya]: d c ses but

[jonathan_kogan]: i

[jay_bhattacharya]: is

[jonathan_kogan]: don't

[jay_bhattacharya]: it

[jonathan_kogan]: want to be in the same room
as richelle lewinsky but anyways but i mean

[jonathan_kogan]: i think you and a lot of
people i think just have too good of

[jonathan_kogan]: hearts and you know think that that
there's not like perhaps i don't know what

[jonathan_kogan]: else to call it like evil in
this world and maybe malice i'm not saying

[jonathan_kogan]: that's the intent it just seems like
maybe that perhaps that does exist and there's

[jonathan_kogan]: perhaps truth coming out with covid maybe
the vaccines and what not and they're trying

[jonathan_kogan]: to be ahead of it and suppress
it and they know that they're wrong and

[jonathan_kogan]: they're like there's like the last measure
to quiet people and it surely seems like

[jonathan_kogan]: that i hate to say that i
do think that ninety nine point nine percent

[jonathan_kogan]: the population are good and positive but
i do think there are perhaps bad people

[jonathan_kogan]: and it surely seems like it's on
front display

[jay_bhattacharya]: well you know i have i have
a christian view of people's ethics

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: the line between good and evil cuts
between every it cuts through every human heart

[jay_bhattacharya]: there's good and evil i think for
me it's more about the incentive like what

[jay_bhattacharya]: is the purpose of this bill to
change the balance of power so that the

[jay_bhattacharya]: government has more power over over doctors
to silence and descent by doctors when doctors

[jay_bhattacharya]: don't agree with public health policy that's
the purpose of it and you know i

[jay_bhattacharya]: think the effects are incredible in the
line whether there's evil intent that i don't

[jay_bhattacharya]: know for sure i do think that
the intent though is to concentrate power and

[jay_bhattacharya]: the effect will be evil

[jonathan_kogan]: it's so strange that this comes at
a time when literally the worst resume you

[jonathan_kogan]: can have to get votes or to
get people to agree to give you more

[jonathan_kogan]: power the worst track you can have
is the two years prior to that bill

[jonathan_kogan]: literally last place in fact if there
were five hundred and fifteen people graduating in

[jonathan_kogan]: class you ould be five hundred and
fifteenth in fact

[jay_bhattacharya]: oh

[jonathan_kogan]: you might have been expelled okay you
you won't even be in the school and

[jonathan_kogan]: yet we want to centralize more power
it just like once over here it doesn't

[jonathan_kogan]: make any sense so there like i
don't know how to think of it it's

[jonathan_kogan]: wild

[jay_bhattacharya]: i mean i think a model for
this is is power

[jonathan_kogan]: m

[jay_bhattacharya]: right just if they want to concentrate
prbrtheywant to be the opposite of what we

[jay_bhattacharya]: were talking about earlier in the podcast
they want to solidify power hierarchies

[jonathan_kogan]: m

[jay_bhattacharya]: control

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: and you know for the people on
top of those hierarchies

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: the ones who passed the bill that's
a good thing

[jonathan_kogan]: well because they don't want to lose
power and i think what's happening like you

[jonathan_kogan]: talking and other great people talking and
you know trying to get the truth out

[jonathan_kogan]: there and it's not about the truth
being good or bad it's just getting the

[jonathan_kogan]: truth out there and then let's discuss
and debate you know like i always thought

[jonathan_kogan]: that science was something that is always
evolving you you discover new things you challenge

[jonathan_kogan]: it i never knew until twenty twenty
that science was fixed done and it was

[jonathan_kogan]: whatever the powers said it was and
that's it and you don't question it unless

[jonathan_kogan]: you get kicked off social media am
i crazy

[jay_bhattacharya]: i mean it's a dark age that's
what we have but the enlightenment is over

[jay_bhattacharya]: like you

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: have essentially a new clericy

[jonathan_kogan]: my

[jay_bhattacharya]: declaring from on high that that which
is true in that

[jonathan_kogan]: yea

[jay_bhattacharya]: it's false and heretics are excommunicated from
the from the high church so that you

[jay_bhattacharya]: become friends as soon as you disagree
with the the central power i mean i

[jay_bhattacharya]: think science cannot try in that kind
of in science needs open discussion that needs

[jay_bhattacharya]: challenge in order to thrive and i
don't i mean

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: we stand at a cross roads we
can we can decide we want we want

[jay_bhattacharya]: to go down that dark age or
we can decide that we want to go

[jay_bhattacharya]: back to the enlightenment those are those
are our two options and i think it

[jay_bhattacharya]: will be political a cultural it'll be
people making the case that the envightement actually

[jay_bhattacharya]: was a good thing

[jonathan_kogan]: m

[jay_bhattacharya]: that will turn us back but it's
going to take work

[jonathan_kogan]: so i'm gonna push back i think
there's three options i think those are two

[jonathan_kogan]: of them but i think that we're
going in a third i think what's happening

[jonathan_kogan]: now is crazy as sounds is actually
a great thing i think that we've all

[jonathan_kogan]: been blind to this grow growing centralization
and powerful structures and you know the agent

[jonathan_kogan]: enlightment i do think it's over but
i don't think the dark age is next

[jonathan_kogan]: i think we're seeing the status quo
that we've just you know like it's a

[jonathan_kogan]: it's a whole like the fourth turning
there's these cycles that happen and usually at

[jonathan_kogan]: this time which we're in right now
is the old institutions don't work any more

[jonathan_kogan]: and so we rebuild them and we
change it and so we're going into this

[jonathan_kogan]: new era and i think it's gonna
be an era where people are freeer than

[jonathan_kogan]: ever and things are more personalized than
ever and things are more one to one

[jonathan_kogan]: than it ever has been and it's
going to be the most decentralized as the

[jonathan_kogan]: world has ever been and we're just
happened to be living through the time where

[jonathan_kogan]: these gigantic structures the n h these
these these these incredible institutions that fund everything

[jonathan_kogan]: just so happen to be crumbling right
now those are very tall buildings that are

[jonathan_kogan]: crumbling like they are gigantic and so
we're just feeling the pain of it and

[jonathan_kogan]: they're doing every last thing to hang
on their power beas they don't want to

[jonathan_kogan]: you know relinquish it but you can't
call everybody a fringe epidemiology stuff because it

[jonathan_kogan]: doesn't or far right extremes it does
doesn't work because all of a sudden everybody

[jonathan_kogan]: right left like it doesn't matter all
of sly everybody s on that side and

[jonathan_kogan]: the only one is on the other
side is fouche and some other people and

[jonathan_kogan]: it's like everybody knows now it just
doesn't it's over it's done and i think

[jonathan_kogan]: we're rebuilding a different world where you're
going to have more personalized incredible treatment where

[jonathan_kogan]: it's like beyond enlightenment is like way
better i just think we are in the

[jonathan_kogan]: depths of the despair of the old
system which is so big and took decades

[jonathan_kogan]: to build it's going to be a
difficult time but i am like so like

[jonathan_kogan]: i don't think the thing with newsome
going o stay like what's gonna happen people

[jonathan_kogan]: are gonna detach from the system and
start building their own communities in their own

[jonathan_kogan]: decentralized institutions with localized people and it's
going to be more like kind of like

[jonathan_kogan]: old like the older days where it
was like the community doctor where you knew

[jonathan_kogan]: everybody and it's not this whole globalized
practice if that makes sense

[jay_bhattacharya]: i mean

[jonathan_kogan]: ah

[jay_bhattacharya]: i like your hopeful vision jonathan i
mean i do think that the pandemic has

[jay_bhattacharya]: exposed the weaknesses of so many of

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: our institutions public health scientific funding

[jonathan_kogan]: m

[jay_bhattacharya]: structures governments

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: local state federal

[jonathan_kogan]: m

[jay_bhattacharya]: and those structures need reform and you're
right

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: i think a political coalition is there
to build that reform if if you have

[jay_bhattacharya]: a creative set of politicians who who
can build those coalitions and

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: i do agree with you i mean
when when you have those kinds of opportunities

[jay_bhattacharya]: it's hard to believe that people leave
a twenty dollar bill on the table someone

[jay_bhattacharya]: pick it up there's a the thing
is there's a central trade off here right

[jay_bhattacharya]: so you have a power like this
information technology that can either be used for

[jay_bhattacharya]: talitarian control or be used for for
freeing people and for the longest time we

[jay_bhattacharya]: thought about those information technologies as a
freeing technology the internet democratized knowledge so that

[jay_bhattacharya]: everyone can have access to it right
and what we've seen is a turn

[jonathan_kogan]: m

[jay_bhattacharya]: towards using those technology is to oppress
people in recent i don't believe that people

[jay_bhattacharya]: want to live like

[jonathan_kogan]: m

[jay_bhattacharya]: that i just can't believe it and
i agree with you i think that that

[jay_bhattacharya]: that there will be pushed back and
ll be it will be constructive structure push

[jay_bhattacharya]: back that will top some some of
the old defunct structures replace them with things

[jay_bhattacharya]: that are much more decentralized and much
more effective and much more personalized at least

[jay_bhattacharya]: that's the whole

[jonathan_kogan]: mean i think i think it's an
illusion of power i really believe the power

[jonathan_kogan]: resides with the people and like and
that's internationally like if everybody says like with

[jonathan_kogan]: the whole like an example with the
mass like if you walk in plays and

[jonathan_kogan]: they you know say put on your
mask which was you know reminds me of

[jonathan_kogan]: quite honestly like nineteen thirties when you
had to wear something else like i really

[jonathan_kogan]: it's very similar it's like a sign
almost it's not for health purposes but you

[jonathan_kogan]: say no i don't have one and
you and then after fifty people come in

[jonathan_kogan]: and they all say no an they
have to run for another mass they're gonna

[jonathan_kogan]: forget it just let it go that
the power really resides in the people and

[jonathan_kogan]: we just need to have the courage
to stand up on and people don't especially

[jonathan_kogan]: in the west i mean a good
a good indication of how information technology is

[jonathan_kogan]: used for totalitarian purposes is china i
mean it's a very good example to a

[jonathan_kogan]: i and then you know as but
people don't want that here they've given us

[jonathan_kogan]: too many as george calling me a
privilege s not freedom too many privileges and

[jonathan_kogan]: then they take two and give one
back and say we're back to normal but

[jonathan_kogan]: i just think that we are ere
at a very interesting point and i think

[jonathan_kogan]: that perhaps we're you know here i
think a lot of the institution like we

[jonathan_kogan]: take but the fbrfda have been it's
just regulatory capture like you've had you've had

[jonathan_kogan]: these you have big farmers that have
captured these these in tiens that are there

[jonathan_kogan]: to protect the people and now they're

[jay_bhattacharya]: oh

[jonathan_kogan]: there to protect the corporation and so
the only thing between you know you used

[jonathan_kogan]: to be the d was there between
the kids and then big parma to protect

[jonathan_kogan]: it and we kind of law s
that and so i guess in terms of

[jonathan_kogan]: the f d a what would you
suggest either a good starting point or how

[jonathan_kogan]: would you start fixing that institution because
i feel like that's one of the biggest

[jonathan_kogan]: ones we need to re organize a
just change because that is a very important

[jonathan_kogan]: structure that we need

[jay_bhattacharya]: the f d a h is too
close to find a pretty significant chunk of

[jay_bhattacharya]: its funding comes from pharmacy who will
come in user fees

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: that needs to change

[jonathan_kogan]: i think it's forty per cent something
like that

[jay_bhattacharya]: it's pretty it's pretty high i don't
know the exact number but it's

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: been it's high and there's here's like
a revolving door so like the former head

[jay_bhattacharya]: of the f d a scott godley

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: is now

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: a for advisor

[jonathan_kogan]: m

[jay_bhattacharya]: you just can't have you just can't
have that you have to have an independent

[jay_bhattacharya]: regulatory authority for people to trust it

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: actually you look the twenty first central
cures act it raised the salaries of the

[jay_bhattacharya]: fdburaucracy pretty sharply yet you still have
this revolving door there needs if you're gonna

[jay_bhattacharya]: if you're going to raise the salaries
like that outside of what the

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: g s a system says and you
have to impose corresponding restrictions on what can

[jay_bhattacharya]: happen after you leave fer so you
shouldn't hope for a farmer job after you

[jay_bhattacharya]: leave the f d your farm board
i think i think you really need to

[jay_bhattacharya]: if you're going to have a regulator
regulator

[jonathan_kogan]: m

[jay_bhattacharya]: you have to have not just the
perception of independence from that it's regulating but

[jay_bhattacharya]: the actual one pendent you know i
worked for the with the f d a

[jay_bhattacharya]: vaccine and drug safety for a long
time it's been heart breaking to watch what's

[jay_bhattacharya]: happened there you had two very prominent
people in vaccine safety marian huber and cross

[jay_bhattacharya]: at his first name design over the
booster the adult booster that almost that's a

[jay_bhattacharya]: big deal if you have these two
regulators saying look this is not fit for

[jay_bhattacharya]: purpose and they've got almost no no
play in the main stream press you said

[jay_bhattacharya]: they're like and they seem like hers
to me they're trying to tell the public

[jay_bhattacharya]: this is not right it doesn't need
our

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: normal standards the f d a needs
to be thoroughly

[jonathan_kogan]: m

[jay_bhattacharya]: reformed from the inside out

[jonathan_kogan]: so and then the last thing i'll
touch on is because i have to do

[jonathan_kogan]: it the f d a is the
more and more that you learn and look

[jonathan_kogan]: at data about vaccines are you because
you have people like drmaholtra in the u

[jonathan_kogan]: k saying let's stop it and let's
at least you know we need to just

[jonathan_kogan]: re evaluate it further there needs just
to be more especially when it comes to

[jonathan_kogan]: children do you are you getting more
concerned as time goes on or do you

[jonathan_kogan]: have kind of the same outlook on
it as maybe a year ago

[jay_bhattacharya]: i mean i think if you look

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: at what's happened with the the child
vaccine even almost no uptake at the top

[jay_bhattacharya]: of the vaccine right like like one
or two percent of the the parents have

[jay_bhattacharya]: actually used the vaccine they're more sensible
than the f d a i think or

[jay_bhattacharya]: the c

[jonathan_kogan]: uh

[jay_bhattacharya]: d c

[jonathan_kogan]: h

[jay_bhattacharya]: i mean the reason is simple what
you have is uh a disease that doesn't

[jay_bhattacharya]: really isn't the primary threat the children
face not even close and you have a

[jay_bhattacharya]: vaccine that you know it's i think
it's safe enough but it still has some

[jay_bhattacharya]: side of that especially in young men
this marius rest teams kind of too high

[jay_bhattacharya]: i give it what's the purpose of
giving it it doesn't stop transmission and so

[jay_bhattacharya]: a lot of parents have seen that
and just are not listening to c c

[jay_bhattacharya]: and the v c has gotten more
and more desperate as that's going on but

[jay_bhattacharya]: i think the pump is the c
d c really needs to align its recommendations

[jay_bhattacharya]: with reality it's lost trust that people
have lost trust in the cvcmand listening to

[jay_bhattacharya]: it because the c c is not
following basic principles for deciding whether to recommend

[jay_bhattacharya]: the product different population for older

[jonathan_kogan]: are

[jay_bhattacharya]: people

[jonathan_kogan]: you noticing that loss of trust everywhere
like as you

[jay_bhattacharya]: am

[jonathan_kogan]: travel and talk to other people is
that kind of consent is that the real

[jonathan_kogan]: consensus

[jay_bhattacharya]: i mean people vote with their feet
right so like you look at

[jonathan_kogan]: m

[jay_bhattacharya]: the b a

[jonathan_kogan]: m

[jay_bhattacharya]: four or five booster california only about
fifteen per cent of people have upo that

[jay_bhattacharya]: booster spike tremendous

[jonathan_kogan]: okay

[jay_bhattacharya]: propaganda by the f c c to
push it the f d a approved that

[jay_bhattacharya]: from booster on the basis of no
human data the b for five booster on

[jay_bhattacharya]: my stata alone and so people just
don't trust it but you can you can

[jay_bhattacharya]: have the c c as long as
they want but unless it's actually based on

[jay_bhattacharya]: good science that recommendation people are going
to tune them out that's

[jonathan_kogan]: didn't

[jay_bhattacharya]: as

[jonathan_kogan]: all the mice get covid by the
way in that study

[jay_bhattacharya]: they can get ovid

[jonathan_kogan]: okay

[jay_bhattacharya]: ovid cats dogs white tail

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: deer you know i saw a dolphin
on somthgfrom for the dolphin got ovid i

[jay_bhattacharya]: mean it's

[jonathan_kogan]: we don't know how smart the our
dolphins could be super smart we don't know

[jonathan_kogan]: but the only which makes it very
confusing with the mandates because the only reason

[jonathan_kogan]: a government should intervene for a mandate
is if you had something that does stop

[jonathan_kogan]: transmission of that makes sense i get
it but

[jay_bhattacharya]: yeah

[jonathan_kogan]: since when does a government step in
and say we're managing this because we don't

[jonathan_kogan]: want your symptoms to be as bad

[jay_bhattacharya]: i mean

[jonathan_kogan]: what

[jay_bhattacharya]: makes no sense right so like even
even if you stopped transition

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: you had a trustworthy public health you

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: mandate people just listen to it right
so like sweden there's no mandate but very

[jay_bhattacharya]: high uptake

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: of the original series because they were
telling people you know especially if you're older

[jay_bhattacharya]: is really important to get it and
here's why people trust the swedish public heath

[jay_bhattacharya]: authority so they did it when you
have a mandate for a product like this

[jay_bhattacharya]: that is an indicator of failure of
the public health agency means that people don't

[jay_bhattacharya]: trust the

[jonathan_kogan]: m

[jay_bhattacharya]: public health agency and so the agency
then turns to coercion to get its way

[jay_bhattacharya]: a big mistake because it's not just
this vaccine that matters there's a whole range

[jay_bhattacharya]: of other vaccines and other health advice
that matter and when you lose trust that

[jay_bhattacharya]: extends outside of the product that you're
coercing two other other products that require

[jonathan_kogan]: ye

[jay_bhattacharya]: trust so i've seen numbers that suggest
that the childhood vaccination was

[jonathan_kogan]: ah

[jay_bhattacharya]: fallen during the pandemic that's a that's
a disaster i mean

[jonathan_kogan]: but it makes sense though because they're
like oh it's getting people to question everything

[jonathan_kogan]: because if someone is consistently not being
honest with you you're going to question everyting

[jonathan_kogan]: they've ever told you so it's not
surprising but like yeah do you it's very

[jonathan_kogan]: important to to to get trust back
into public health but you know the question

[jonathan_kogan]: is is public health the way it's
structure now is it is it even is

[jonathan_kogan]: it possible to put trust back into
those is it even like i look at

[jonathan_kogan]: the main stream media is it even
possible to regain trust in those i think

[jonathan_kogan]: it's over for them like i don't
i don't know how you how you gain

[jonathan_kogan]: trust of the people again

[jay_bhattacharya]: i mean american public health is in
very bad

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: state i mean there is a broad
perception on the right that the public health

[jay_bhattacharya]: authorities don't already look down on the
right so you have half the population that

[jay_bhattacharya]: think that the public health is against
them and you know what most of people

[jay_bhattacharya]: that work in public out are on
the left on the far left they do

[jay_bhattacharya]: look down on people on the right
you have to have a public health i

[jay_bhattacharya]: mean the idea of playing around

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: with is this idea of essentially political
celibacy

[jonathan_kogan]: ye

[jay_bhattacharya]: if you under public health you can
have i

[jonathan_kogan]: m

[jay_bhattacharya]: guess you can have a political opinion
but you keep it to yourself because you're

[jay_bhattacharya]: trying to like it's not like politics
you're not trying to reach

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: you know half the population plus one
you're trying to reach ninety nine percent ninety

[jay_bhattacharya]: five percent of the population

[jonathan_kogan]: the

[jay_bhattacharya]: if

[jonathan_kogan]: fact we're

[jay_bhattacharya]: he's

[jonathan_kogan]: taking left and right in the same
discussion as public health makes no sense to

[jonathan_kogan]: me

[jay_bhattacharya]: remember during the pandemic had

[jonathan_kogan]: ye

[jay_bhattacharya]: like some

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: motor psycho rallying in the dakotas and
there's like all this like you know wailing

[jay_bhattacharya]: and mashing our teeth saying oh my
god they're doing a super specter even and

[jay_bhattacharya]: then you have like these huge l
protests and riots and they're like oh no

[jay_bhattacharya]: it's fine this is important for public
health that people and to say these things

[jay_bhattacharya]: i people notice

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: these things like you just just it

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: doesn't it's not like people are dumb
they look and say okay why in one

[jay_bhattacharya]: case are you really upset in the
other case which looks similar are you just

[jonathan_kogan]: yah

[jay_bhattacharya]: fine it's very quickly politic and people
lose trust as a result of it i

[jay_bhattacharya]: think that's what's happening the pandemic public
health needs to be done from the inside

[jay_bhattacharya]: out

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: i rebuilt on a much more equal
basis one that reflects the population at large

[jay_bhattacharya]: rather than sees itself as above the
population

[jonathan_kogan]: so you're telling me studies didn't show
that the virus stops at b l m

[jonathan_kogan]: riots but doesn't stop at other riots

[jay_bhattacharya]: i mean it doesn't spread out doors
very efficiently anyways i mean it doesn't

[jonathan_kogan]: all right

[jay_bhattacharya]: yeah

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: you know just i think i think
the fact that people

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: were t were exercised about about george

[jonathan_kogan]: m

[jay_bhattacharya]: floyd i mean that's completely reasonable there
was a good reason

[jonathan_kogan]: sure

[jay_bhattacharya]: to be exercised about it absolute be
logical test that even in the idle of

[jay_bhattacharya]: the pandemic the reason the people the
fact that people are exercised about lock downs

[jay_bhattacharya]: suppression of their freedom associate that also
something that's completely reasonable like public health has

[jay_bhattacharya]: to to

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: accept that the public has its own
of values rather than trying to impose public

[jay_bhattacharya]: health values on the population i should
design advice that's constant with the values that

[jay_bhattacharya]: people the people have i think that's
really the fundamental issue

[jonathan_kogan]: so this is kind of a weird
question but so you're you have kids i'm

[jonathan_kogan]: going to be a father soon and
i'm

[jay_bhattacharya]: as

[jonathan_kogan]: curious thank you and i'm wondering i
don't even know if you consider yourself speaking

[jonathan_kogan]: out like this was never you probably
never wanted to be in the public sphere

[jonathan_kogan]: like like you are right and likewise
i guess it is a reason why you're

[jonathan_kogan]: you know i guess talking loudly or
spreading they're trying to at least make a

[jonathan_kogan]: difference is a lot some of it
at least because looking at the future of

[jonathan_kogan]: of your kids and like you know
having the freedoms that you had like is

[jonathan_kogan]: that is that is that a a
primary reason at all or is it just

[jonathan_kogan]: this is what i have to do
it's my job

[jay_bhattacharya]: well it's a little bell i do

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: think my kids they weren't hurt as
much as they might might otherwise have been

[jay_bhattacharya]: because my wife and i were able
to help but they were hurt there's no

[jay_bhattacharya]: they didn't they didn't need to be
and i think that's true for so many

[jay_bhattacharya]: kids i did find myself in this
weird place because i had this background that

[jay_bhattacharya]: seemed more or less no spot on
for the i am an picheologist right so

[jay_bhattacharya]: could kind

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: of i could i could i could
speak up but i'm also an health economist

[jay_bhattacharya]: and also

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: at doctor you put me in this
place where i kind of had to speak

[jay_bhattacharya]: up otherwise what's my career for so
it's a little little of those i don't

[jay_bhattacharya]: know if i would have been quite
as loud i really am quite upset what

[jay_bhattacharya]: we did to our children and what
we did to the poor

[jonathan_kogan]: i agree the fact that we don't
talk about just the re precautions of a

[jonathan_kogan]: lot that are still being felt in
many you know we're really we have a

[jonathan_kogan]: weird lens in you especially the united
stage which is we don't you know even

[jonathan_kogan]: the poor here it's very different across
the world where people do live off two

[jonathan_kogan]: dollars a day i mean hundreds of
millions of people and like the un has

[jonathan_kogan]: reported you know starvation is spiking up
again for the first time and forever and

[jonathan_kogan]: usually we've lifted people out i mean
now it's going the opposite way and then

[jonathan_kogan]: there's chaos in the world and everything
else so it's something we need to talk

[jonathan_kogan]: about but then the last thing is
going for changing things you've you're starting to

[jonathan_kogan]: put together some ethical principles right can
you talk a little bit

[jay_bhattacharya]: yeah

[jonathan_kogan]: about that

[jay_bhattacharya]: sure

[jonathan_kogan]: and and why that's

[jay_bhattacharya]: so

[jonathan_kogan]: important

[jay_bhattacharya]: so i've helped found this organization called
the the academy

[jonathan_kogan]: ye

[jay_bhattacharya]: for science and freedom and one of
the first things we did we put out

[jay_bhattacharya]: a set of ten ethical principles of
public health the academy is

[jonathan_kogan]: m

[jay_bhattacharya]: located in hillsdale college confounded with scott
atlas of stanford and martin cold formally apart

[jay_bhattacharya]: and the idea is here let me
just read them to you jonathan let's see

[jay_bhattacharya]: if you disagree with anything like i
suspect you

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: might like these one all

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: public health advice should consider the impact
on overall health rather than solely be concerned

[jay_bhattacharya]: with a single disease should always consider
both benefits and harms from public health measures

[jay_bhattacharya]: and weigh short term games against long
term huns

[jonathan_kogan]: terrible no

[jay_bhattacharya]: to you

[jonathan_kogan]: i very much agree oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: i mean you know i reckon is
kind of a fringe idea let's put down

[jonathan_kogan]: it's so crazy how obvious it is
yet the fact that it's like a it's

[jonathan_kogan]: so bizarre it's so weird it's a
weird world we're livin but yes very much

[jonathan_kogan]: agree go on

[jay_bhattacharya]: public health is about everyone any public
health policy must first and foremost protect societies

[jay_bhattacharya]: most vulnerable including children low income families
persons and disabilities and the elderly it should

[jay_bhattacharya]: never shift the burden of disease from
it forward to the west afterward

[jonathan_kogan]: especially children

[jay_bhattacharya]: specially children um three public health advice
should be adapted

[jonathan_kogan]: m

[jay_bhattacharya]: to the needs of each population within
cultural religious geographic and other contexts we don't

[jay_bhattacharya]: ruin public health we serve

[jonathan_kogan]: isn't that

[jay_bhattacharya]: work

[jonathan_kogan]: how it's supposed to be now

[jay_bhattacharya]: yeah

[jonathan_kogan]: isn't

[jay_bhattacharya]: supposed

[jonathan_kogan]: that

[jay_bhattacharya]: to

[jonathan_kogan]: technically

[jay_bhattacharya]: be

[jonathan_kogan]: outset up

[jay_bhattacharya]: that's

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: how i thought that's how i always
thought about fellow before the pandemic but it's

[jay_bhattacharya]: clear

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: that there's so many my colleagues don't
think of it that way

[jonathan_kogan]: wow

[jay_bhattacharya]: for public house is about comparative risk
valuation risk production and reducing uncertainty s using

[jay_bhattacharya]: the best

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: available evidence since risk can usually usually
be entirely eliminated have to accept

[jonathan_kogan]: ye

[jay_bhattacharya]: that i'm just of pandemic like

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: this you really shouldn't to yourself i
can protect everybody when it's not possible and

[jay_bhattacharya]: then the

[jonathan_kogan]: right

[jay_bhattacharya]: act of protecting everybody what you're doing
is harming many people

[jonathan_kogan]: but also that your your decision you
can change as you get more data as

[jonathan_kogan]: more you know information comes in you
can change course you can make a different

[jonathan_kogan]: decision that maybe was the opposite you
might get it wrong you know as long

[jonathan_kogan]: as you consistently going towards the same
goal of doing what's best for majority the

[jonathan_kogan]: population or if that's the way best
way to word it m

[jay_bhattacharya]: along with the other these other principles
protecting children

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: and so on

[jonathan_kogan]: right

[jay_bhattacharya]: think it's complicated is always going to
be this art right it's never going to

[jay_bhattacharya]: be so clean because societies are complicated
public health a health is complicated you're gonna

[jay_bhattacharya]: have to make trade offs this is
part of part and parcel of public health

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: and you to be honest with people
look we got this wrong here the data

[jay_bhattacharya]: are different now and here's why the
data are really different this is why we

[jay_bhattacharya]: change our mind like i mean that
kind of thing goes a long way

[jonathan_kogan]: just doing that just doing that by
just saying you know we were wrong i'm

[jonathan_kogan]: sorry we're going to do that in
itself that little correcting course that would restore

[jonathan_kogan]: so much trust and faith in thing
into it's wild like there used to be

[jonathan_kogan]: i've heard back in the day there
used to be like cos that would make

[jonathan_kogan]: an inn i think it was made
an intentional stake mistake to come out in

[jonathan_kogan]: public and say i'm sorry we did
wrong to correct it and then

[jay_bhattacharya]: what

[jonathan_kogan]: the stock sword because the trust got
so it's very similar though very similar

[jay_bhattacharya]: well that should make intentional mistakes but
ye

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: buy that

[jonathan_kogan]: you know what i mean

[jay_bhattacharya]: five public

[jonathan_kogan]: m

[jay_bhattacharya]: helth requires public trust public health recommendation
should present facts the basis for guidance

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: and never employ fear or shame to
swear manipulate the public that by the way

[jay_bhattacharya]: is a shocking thing that we get
essential

[jonathan_kogan]: what

[jay_bhattacharya]: created this class of people that are
unclean the beginning like you know essential

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: non essential then like you

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: got covid because you ere weren't careful
you were careful and didn't get covid you

[jay_bhattacharya]: were vaccinated unvaccinated mass on mass you
know in each of these steps we created

[jay_bhattacharya]: an outcast set of people that should
be shamed and pushed and pushed away to

[jay_bhattacharya]: the edge to the friends right shame
them we weabonized

[jonathan_kogan]: it

[jay_bhattacharya]: empathy so like get compliance with the
orders

[jonathan_kogan]: young people to protect

[jay_bhattacharya]: no

[jonathan_kogan]: grandma and all that

[jay_bhattacharya]: xactly

[jonathan_kogan]: stuff

[jay_bhattacharya]: you

[jonathan_kogan]: the

[jay_bhattacharya]: know

[jonathan_kogan]: only time i can remember you know
part of society to listen i hate making

[jonathan_kogan]: comparison lie that but like the only
time i remember that happening at least knowing

[jonathan_kogan]: history is nose germany like that's kind
of what happened it's bizarre but i mean

[jonathan_kogan]: it's what happened

[jay_bhattacharya]: actually i think it's beyond i think
it's in the human let's

[jonathan_kogan]: yea

[jay_bhattacharya]: hear it to do that unfortunately jonathan
there's a cast system in india there's

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: a there's a

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: no racial racial animis

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: we have this like

[jonathan_kogan]: a

[jay_bhattacharya]: for

[jonathan_kogan]: tribal

[jay_bhattacharya]: it's tried and we have especially for
infects disease patients will clean we have built

[jay_bhattacharya]: into our psyche this desire to be
free of infectencis like primal or of it

[jay_bhattacharya]: um in the west we sort of
thought we conquered it except a te um

[jay_bhattacharya]: and when this came we're just not
used to able to like civilization requires push

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: back against that primal instinct shun the
unclean civilization requires us to be in contact

[jay_bhattacharya]: with one another not make these clean
clean distinctions and i think that that's that

[jay_bhattacharya]: that the public health really rather than
pushing against primal instinct exploited to try to

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: get its way on various policies

[jonathan_kogan]: and and that makes me think like
this there was never a time i always

[jonathan_kogan]: thought from the beginning when this was
happening it was like there's a weird thing

[jonathan_kogan]: going on there is a like and
just fear is very massive it's so big

[jonathan_kogan]: right that the amount of fear persistent
constant it's like it was being weaponized but

[jonathan_kogan]: like all the time and i was
like okay that's very extreme there's obviously omething

[jonathan_kogan]: strange going on but is the if
we're tligabout root causes and like you know

[jonathan_kogan]: in the human mind this is just
my i'm curious what you think is the

[jonathan_kogan]: being this fearful over an infectious disease
is it ultimately like so scared in factions

[jonathan_kogan]: got do everything like forget everything else
god protect against this one thing is it

[jonathan_kogan]: is it is that everyone is terrified
of dying is there this extreme fear with

[jonathan_kogan]: death is that just

[jay_bhattacharya]: we

[jonathan_kogan]: a common

[jay_bhattacharya]: think about that is

[jonathan_kogan]: thing

[jay_bhattacharya]: terrified of dying of this thing while
allowing dying from a whole bunch of other

[jay_bhattacharya]: things

[jonathan_kogan]: well

[jay_bhattacharya]: you know answer screens

[jonathan_kogan]: that's the cognivediscidence right

[jay_bhattacharya]: yeah so it's

[jonathan_kogan]: ye

[jay_bhattacharya]: it's you when you put in the
front of mind this one threat i tell

[jay_bhattacharya]: you i think you're right

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: people asked in that really did but
that's that's normal so the question is like

[jay_bhattacharya]: how do you manage that if you're
if you're public health that authority don't exploit

[jay_bhattacharya]: it for

[jonathan_kogan]: m

[jay_bhattacharya]: causing to like

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: you know early in the pandemic they
made a virtue out of fear they

[jonathan_kogan]: m

[jay_bhattacharya]: said okay if you're scared then you'll
you social

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: distance your mask will stay home they
caused fear in order to get compliance um

[jonathan_kogan]: m

[jay_bhattacharya]: six medical intervention should not be forced
or coerced on

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: the population but rather should be voluntary
and based on inform consent public health officials

[jay_bhattacharya]: are advisors not rule setters and provide
information and resources for individuals to make inform

[jay_bhattacharya]: decisions

[jonathan_kogan]: so that includes actually another thing that
you've mentioned many times which is the separation

[jonathan_kogan]: of duties which is you know the
people who make the rule the conflict of

[jonathan_kogan]: interest and that kind of talianto that

[jay_bhattacharya]: absolutely does yeah i mean if you
think of yourself as rulers and you have

[jay_bhattacharya]: a gonna try to get power on
the other hand when you're essentially like trusted

[jay_bhattacharya]: advisors

[jonathan_kogan]: m

[jay_bhattacharya]: you're gonna act

[jonathan_kogan]: hm

[jay_bhattacharya]: very differently much

[jonathan_kogan]: right

[jay_bhattacharya]: more humble public health of seven public
heathauthorities must be honest and transparent both what

[jay_bhattacharya]: is known and what is not known
advice should be evidence based and explain by

[jay_bhattacharya]: data authorities must acknowledge errors or change

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: in evidence as soon as they are
made aware of them

[jonathan_kogan]: that's the most fringe one on the
entire list but continue

[jay_bhattacharya]: no no lies either no noble lies
like

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: i'm not gonna manipulate tell you a
lie so i can manipulate

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: you into like doing something it's not
there's no such thing as a noble lot

[jay_bhattacharya]: i just something demolishes

[jonathan_kogan]: m

[jay_bhattacharya]: trust

[jonathan_kogan]: that's pretty profound actually i agree

[jay_bhattacharya]: eight public hal scientists and practitioners should
avoid conflict of interest and any unavoidable complex

[jay_bhattacharya]: of interest must be clearly stated

[jonathan_kogan]: that

[jay_bhattacharya]: that

[jonathan_kogan]: that

[jay_bhattacharya]: is

[jonathan_kogan]: even goes to the c d c
the approving for the child communization that that

[jonathan_kogan]: that leaks into many areas of what's
going on right now don't you think

[jay_bhattacharya]: in the f d a of course

[jonathan_kogan]: f d a

[jay_bhattacharya]: we talked about i mean i think
a lot of what happened during the pandemic

[jay_bhattacharya]: explained by these complex interest avoidable ones

[jonathan_kogan]: like follow the money is what people
say and when you talk about the w

[jonathan_kogan]: h and then you see who they're
funded by it's the c c p and

[jay_bhattacharya]: it's often

[jonathan_kogan]: gates foundation

[jay_bhattacharya]: not even it's not even money sometimes
it's just power

[jonathan_kogan]: which is crazy because i could barely
manage my own life i can't be there's

[jonathan_kogan]: people out there who want to manage
millions of people or million or three people

[jonathan_kogan]: i could barely manage my own life
its bizarre

[jay_bhattacharya]: ah

[jonathan_kogan]: to me

[jay_bhattacharya]: yeah i don't i think it's amazing
how you know i guess that's just a

[jay_bhattacharya]: human again human condition will the power
is part of part of wear

[jonathan_kogan]: i didn't get that cromoson but go
on

[jay_bhattacharya]: um i mean you can tell i'm
not particularly i mean i'm retty perfectly happy

[jay_bhattacharya]: to just go back to my quiet
life

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah you didn't get it either

[jay_bhattacharya]: nine in public health open civilized

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: debate is profoundly important

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: it's unacceptable for public health professionals to
censor silence or intimidate members of the public

[jay_bhattacharya]: or other public health scientist or practitioners

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: and finally yeah i mean that's been
crazy anyone that speaks

[jonathan_kogan]: right

[jay_bhattacharya]: up is is friends

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: right even no matter what your credentials

[jonathan_kogan]: an that be can that reverse course
can that be fixed now that how do

[jonathan_kogan]: you fixed that because it's already de
platform you're already her

[jay_bhattacharya]: what

[jonathan_kogan]: i meant

[jay_bhattacharya]: i

[jonathan_kogan]: other

[jay_bhattacharya]: think

[jonathan_kogan]: people

[jay_bhattacharya]: i think scientific leaders have a responsibility
here right so universities need to set standards

[jay_bhattacharya]: for good behavior

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: respectful behavior in science expectations about this
like you know do this with our students

[jay_bhattacharya]: we say okay here's what here's the
kind of ethical behavior leads back you cheat

[jay_bhattacharya]: on exams and so on you don't
you know

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: bully people you could make those kinds
of same ethical standards and universities and a

[jay_bhattacharya]: lot of i mean a lot of
universities have just let that go

[jonathan_kogan]: is that

[jay_bhattacharya]: and

[jonathan_kogan]: what you would start with academia

[jay_bhattacharya]: yeah i

[jonathan_kogan]: specifically

[jay_bhattacharya]: was stating academic institutions like i just
set expectations for good behavior i can't believe

[jay_bhattacharya]: you have to do that but you
clearly

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: do i

[jonathan_kogan]: i agree

[jay_bhattacharya]: thought adults would act each with

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: each other sort of think away

[jonathan_kogan]: we are where

[jay_bhattacharya]: really

[jonathan_kogan]: we are

[jay_bhattacharya]: and finally ten it's critical for ublichelsh
scientist and pechniciers always to listen to the

[jay_bhattacharya]: public were living the public health consequence
of public health decision and to adopt a

[jay_bhattacharya]: serve

[jonathan_kogan]: m

[jay_bhattacharya]: you don't rule

[jonathan_kogan]: and that was totally dismissed not only
was that dismissed it was it was like

[jonathan_kogan]: intentionally avoided

[jay_bhattacharya]: yeah it's pretty it's pretty shocking

[jonathan_kogan]: m but

[jay_bhattacharya]: yeah

[jonathan_kogan]: are you seeing are you are you
release seeing colleagues or people at other academic

[jonathan_kogan]: institutions starting to kind of be disappointed
of what happened to their profession and speak

[jonathan_kogan]: out or be a little more courageous
i don't realy now what the word is

[jonathan_kogan]: but yeah yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: yeah i mean i do think that
i think that there's a much wider set

[jay_bhattacharya]: of voices running contract to a lock
down narrative than it once was you can

[jay_bhattacharya]: see it on twitter right so like
its

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: it's harder for the pre mongers to
win it's harder for the people that were

[jay_bhattacharya]: sort of looking for a

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: calling for a more militmilitarized people of
health to win and a very large number

[jay_bhattacharya]: of regular people and scientists you speak
up um

[jonathan_kogan]: and

[jay_bhattacharya]: and

[jonathan_kogan]: and i

[jay_bhattacharya]: i

[jonathan_kogan]: think

[jay_bhattacharya]: think

[jonathan_kogan]: that's

[jay_bhattacharya]: it's that

[jonathan_kogan]: a massive number because i think there's
a lot of issues with this whole online

[jonathan_kogan]: consensus thing i think a lot of
fake these bonds i think they're trying to

[jonathan_kogan]: push a narrative sort of thing so
if you have this man it must be

[jonathan_kogan]: overwhelmingly majority of society in my opinion
what do you think about that

[jay_bhattacharya]: i completely agree all of the movement
has been in the direction of much more

[jay_bhattacharya]: reasonable public health i think

[jonathan_kogan]: m

[jay_bhattacharya]: maybe i tend to make my friends

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: say i'm overly optimistic so maybe that
maybe you just take that with a grain

[jay_bhattacharya]: of salt but i do think that
that's true i don't think people have moved

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: in the direction of no

[jonathan_kogan]: h

[jay_bhattacharya]: we need to lock down to

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: go to zero i mean that that
base has gone as an idea outside of

[jay_bhattacharya]: china

[jonathan_kogan]: right yeah i just want to i
think if we just start having more public

[jonathan_kogan]: forms and discussions on this i think
we can you know correct the path much

[jonathan_kogan]: faster than people i think we're getting
i think it's becoming so consistent and profound

[jonathan_kogan]: at least online that it will break
through i don't even know why we call

[jonathan_kogan]: it the main stream because i feel
like the main stream is now you know

[jonathan_kogan]: outlets like podcast and it's totally changed
and i think that majority people are watching

[jonathan_kogan]: these different community podcast of stuff and
that it is main stream technically meaning the

[jonathan_kogan]: majority of people

[jay_bhattacharya]: i mean the friend as becomes a
center right

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah exactly

[jay_bhattacharya]: i think i think the thing

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: is that that

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: the ideas are what matter here the
ideas that have ruled

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: over the last two and a half
years have been bad ideas and people see

[jay_bhattacharya]: that they felt they feel in their
bones he bad consequences hasn't protected them from

[jay_bhattacharya]: covid and estimated all the other priorities
in their lives so many of the other

[jay_bhattacharya]: praties in their lives that's

[jonathan_kogan]: m

[jay_bhattacharya]: hurt the most vulnerable people in our
societies and i don't see how you keep

[jay_bhattacharya]: that going like anything any set of
ideas that has that as its outcome will

[jay_bhattacharya]: not last

[jonathan_kogan]: agree and which brings me actually to
one last thing i do want to add

[jonathan_kogan]: so i've never been a i would
never say i been to religious or a

[jonathan_kogan]: little spiritual but not spiritual and now
i'm thinking a lot of what's happened yes

[jonathan_kogan]: there's misuse of science but i am
strongly believing now that a lot of this

[jonathan_kogan]: was able to work because of the
lack of spiritual it or the lack of

[jonathan_kogan]: religion don't want to get too deep
in that but i know i know your

[jonathan_kogan]: christian and you believe what you believe
i'm jewish i think i think the lack

[jonathan_kogan]: of spirituality is what perpetuated all of
this do you think that plays a part

[jonathan_kogan]: in this

[jay_bhattacharya]: i do do it but all in
a funny way so

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: i think if you look at the
formal behavior of a lot of churches have

[jay_bhattacharya]: to say i'm quite disappointed like

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: they made they made the mad virtue

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: out of social just essentially treating others
as bio hazards instead of loving your neighbor

[jay_bhattacharya]: i mean that that idea thought was
a motivating idea in christian faith wasn't what

[jay_bhattacharya]: wasn't like pushed by so many churches
loving your neighbor extended beyond infection control

[jonathan_kogan]: right

[jay_bhattacharya]: uh um so i think there is
that but i do think i think a

[jay_bhattacharya]: society that is unmoored from some sense
of the almighty or some sense of like

[jay_bhattacharya]: the how outside of us we are
not here simply for ourselves but to love

[jay_bhattacharya]: one another to care for one another
societies that are unmoored from that will be

[jay_bhattacharya]: more susceptible to this kind of rule
essentially people who are promising effectively immortality just

[jay_bhattacharya]: stay home stay safe so i think
in that sense

[jonathan_kogan]: m

[jay_bhattacharya]: i agree with you i think the
that sort of social immune

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: function against this kind of charlatanism is
less when people don't have that kind of

[jay_bhattacharya]: connection to religious structures

[jonathan_kogan]: you know in a great book the
psychology of totalitarias by mathias desmond he's the

[jonathan_kogan]: one who talked about mass formation psychostsand
what not but he wrote that and he

[jonathan_kogan]: was talking but how p reviewed studies
have been co opted for a while all

[jonathan_kogan]: this stuff these issues and that these
great scientists of the past like the best

[jonathan_kogan]: thinkers of our time as the more
work they did they almost all came to

[jonathan_kogan]: the conclusion that there is a power
that cannot die and whatever they were measuring

[jonathan_kogan]: for and there's like a i don't
know a god or some some power in

[jonathan_kogan]: the universe that is bigger than all
of us that cannot be explained they like

[jonathan_kogan]: all were led to that place

[jay_bhattacharya]: science itself depends on the idea that
the world itself is ordered so that there

[jay_bhattacharya]: are rules and laws to be discovered
if you don't have that

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: as a faith and you can't be
science and the world is just chaos and

[jay_bhattacharya]: rina science and uh it's not an
accident that you had an enlightenment to happen

[jay_bhattacharya]: in a society that was heavily

[jonathan_kogan]: m

[jay_bhattacharya]: religious i think you have

[jonathan_kogan]: ye

[jay_bhattacharya]: to have some sense of that there
is an order to the universe in order

[jay_bhattacharya]: truly you know it doesn't have to
be necessarily religious

[jonathan_kogan]: m

[jay_bhattacharya]: it doesn't have that faith for other
other needs but faith does help that i

[jay_bhattacharya]: think

[jonathan_kogan]: and i think we need it now
more than ever about correcting this and making

[jonathan_kogan]: the future but we need something who
knows

[jay_bhattacharya]: it's something

[jonathan_kogan]: who knows maybe a diet coke whatever

[jay_bhattacharya]: uh

[jonathan_kogan]: but so

[jay_bhattacharya]: uh

[jonathan_kogan]: but no that that's great so so
so what what so last thing is what

[jonathan_kogan]: what are you going to be doing
from you know here on out is it

[jonathan_kogan]: just is it kind of just keep
continue discussing you know to as many people

[jonathan_kogan]: as possible get the conversations going is
there what can an every day person that

[jonathan_kogan]: maybe doesn't have a platform what if
they're like hey like we realize something is

[jonathan_kogan]: wrong with feel in our bones like
you said and we don't want to live

[jonathan_kogan]: this way we want to be free
i don't know how to say it but

[jonathan_kogan]: you know we want to have good
medicine science what can we do to help

[jonathan_kogan]: what what can an everyday person do

[jay_bhattacharya]: i mean so what so you ask
two questions let me jus tell you about

[jay_bhattacharya]: what i'm doing so i got this
academy for science and freedom through hillsdale that

[jay_bhattacharya]: help found and in the uki'vehel

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: find a charity called collateral global the
sort of overlapping

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: missions that the collateral globe as to
sponsor research on the collateral harms of lock

[jay_bhattacharya]: down and all its various myriad settings
the academy science of freedom of two missions

[jay_bhattacharya]: one is to restore open discussion within

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: science no more fringe center just open
discussion and then second to establish the proper

[jay_bhattacharya]: place so science in society not as
rulers of society but but but as advisers

[jay_bhattacharya]: of society you trusted advisers so those
are the two primary missions of it i'm

[jay_bhattacharya]: going i'm going to continue to use
those institutions to make to advocate reforms the

[jay_bhattacharya]: government i personally would like to go
back i did actually have a research ended

[jay_bhattacharya]: before the pandemic and would be kind
of fun to go back to some of

[jay_bhattacharya]: that i find it hard to concentrate
on those things now a days

[jonathan_kogan]: ja

[jay_bhattacharya]: think

[jonathan_kogan]: that's gone i hope you enjoyed it
while it lasted

[jay_bhattacharya]: yeah

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: maybe some day i got to say
i don't think the work on the pandemic

[jay_bhattacharya]: is done i don't feel like it's
done as yet i kind of need to

[jay_bhattacharya]: write a little memoir thing just because
i've been i've seen a lot of really

[jay_bhattacharya]: interesting metalogics people had had a front
row seat and so much of the policy

[jay_bhattacharya]: make even though dodging to get my
way um

[jonathan_kogan]: write

[jay_bhattacharya]: ah

[jonathan_kogan]: a news letter you can do it
you can then it can turn into like

[jonathan_kogan]: a memoir do it as you go
like as you meet someone you know and

[jonathan_kogan]: everyone follows it and reads it i
don't know just thinking

[jay_bhattacharya]: i'm thinking so those those are my
personal goals to basically figure out what i

[jay_bhattacharya]: when i do with the rest of
my life given given how much my life

[jay_bhattacharya]: has changed the last two years i
think as far as what regular people can

[jay_bhattacharya]: do i've seen this great movement happen
in school boards where parents are now involved

[jay_bhattacharya]: that never would have otherwise been involved
saying look why did you close those schools

[jay_bhattacharya]: like res up here are you know
regular people who were trusted these structures no

[jay_bhattacharya]: longer trust them and now they're getting
involved in the sort of practicipatory democracy which

[jay_bhattacharya]: i think is really quite healthy and
i think you know i think advocating for

[jay_bhattacharya]: children advocating for people living in nursing
homes that you know i i've just seen

[jay_bhattacharya]: regular

[jonathan_kogan]: oh

[jay_bhattacharya]: people start to speak

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: up say look no this isn't right
an enormous movement i think

[jonathan_kogan]: yeah

[jay_bhattacharya]: is built around that so i think
that's that's that's the key thing is to

[jay_bhattacharya]: tell the people who made these decisions
that he need to go back and we

[jay_bhattacharya]: think them and then if you you
have the as you do it through emocratic

[jay_bhattacharya]: needs put someone else in vice who
shares your values more than the people that

[jay_bhattacharya]: made these decisions

[jonathan_kogan]: it's kind of beautiful to see that
movement like people are like we've had enough

[jonathan_kogan]: and you see people who would never
get involved just starts like melts my heart

[jonathan_kogan]: it's really really cool to see and
i think i think it's more widespread than

[jonathan_kogan]: we probably know because a lot of
it's not really covered you know what i

[jonathan_kogan]: mean so it's really great um so
j i really really appreciate you coming out

[jonathan_kogan]: where can people where's the best place
to find you

[jay_bhattacharya]: I'm still quite active on Twitter weirdly
find it very very fun it's so

[jonathan_kogan]: uh

[jay_bhattacharya]: D R

[jonathan_kogan]: uh

[jay_bhattacharya]: the letter J Bhattacharya at
B H A T T A C H A R

[jay_bhattacharya]: Y A letters in episode D R
J Bhattacharya c n Twitter I'm probably too

[jay_bhattacharya]: active on Twitter than i should

[jonathan_kogan]: uh

[jay_bhattacharya]: be but

[jonathan_kogan]: h

[jay_bhattacharya]: I

[jonathan_kogan]: the

[jay_bhattacharya]: sort

[jonathan_kogan]: tweets

[jay_bhattacharya]: of cant

[jonathan_kogan]: are getting good they're getting spicy for
sure I'll link that in the in the

[jonathan_kogan]: show notes below so you guys can
and gals can follow him so Dr Bhattacharya I

[jonathan_kogan]: really really appreciate you coming on especially
on pretty short notice so thank you and

[jonathan_kogan]: I hope this was helpful to anyone
listening so thanks again

[jay_bhattacharya]: the life to talk Jonathan thanks for
having me on

[jonathan_kogan]: all right thanks bye