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Welcome to One Hale of a Conversation where your host, James Hale, talks with Artists, Actors, and Creatives, trying to understand both where they come from, and how they tick. Join Us!
Maddi Albregts
*Light jazz music playing*
This podcast is brought to you by Mad Company, a nonprofit theater company based out of New York City.
James
Hello, everyone, and welcome to one hale of a conversation. My name is James Hale. I am your host for this podcast. With me today, I have the great pleasure of speaking with Gerrard James, actor and creative extraordinaire.
Gerrard
Haha
James
Gerrard, how are we doing?
Gerrard
I'm doing well. I'm doing well. Happy to be here, man.
James
Fabulous.
Gerrard
Yeah.
James
This is we tried to schedule this four or five different times, but you're just so damn busy.
Gerrard
Oh, goodness yeah.
James
That we we can't get a hold of you. So we know each other from LAMDA. We…
Gerrard
Yeah.
James
Were on the MA course there. We also lived together through the pandemic, which was an eye opening experience for everyone.
James
You are a New York guy, before that, I wonder if you can just sort of quickly sketch your journey from maybe budding artist or interest in the arts to where you are now.
Gerrard
Yeah, I mean, I started off, in, like outside of the arts completely. So before I moved to New York in 2009, I was working as a trade capture analyst at JP Morgan.
Gerrard
I did some classes… I did a class at Morehouse in undergrad…
James
Mmhmm
Gerrard
Um, for acting with the teacher name of Crystal Dickinson, who is in the show Covenant right now…
James
Oh, okay.
Gerrard
Still a mentor and friend of mine. But that's when I kind of realized like, Oh, I really want to do this. But I think I just felt a lot of pressure to uphold this, this idea that I needed to kind of uh, carry the torch forward.
James
Mmm.
Gerrard
You know, my parents worked really hard to get to where they were financially. They're both from the projects of Atlanta, and I kind of felt this responsibility to say like, all right, I got to carry it forward. I have to either be a doctor, which wasn't going to happen…umm…or a lawyer, which I did think about, but finance was something that really interested me because my dad, when I was in high school, he got, he got laid off from a merger.
Gerrard
And I was so interested in how that could upset jobs, but how could you create more jobs? And was interested in M&A, which is mergers and acquisitions, and I was just like, all right, maybe I need to go to school for finance.
James
Mmmhmm
Gerrard
And I went to Tufts University first in Medford, which is pretty much Boston.
James
Haha.
Gerrard
It is different, but…
James
Haha!
Gerrard
Uh, Medford, Massachusetts, and realized very quickly that I wanted to be at a school that was… I wanted to be where my brother was in Atlanta, I wanted to be near my family.
James
Mmmhmm
Gerrard
Tufts was very much like the high school that I went to in Connecticut and where I was a drop in the, in the ocean, uh, as far as in being a person of color.
James
Mmhmm
Gerrard
And so I wanted to go to an HBCU - historically black college. And so I went to Morehouse. That's when I started taking acting classes or I took that acting class with Crystal.
Gerrard
It opened up my eyes and I was like, Oh, maybe I’ll double major! And because I transferred from Tufts, double majoring would have meant, I would have done five years of college. It would have added time, and I felt bad because my parents were covering my college education, thankfully, with the small scholarship that I had. And so I was just… I kind of just put it on the back burner.
James
Sure.
Gerrard
And, it wasn't until the stock market crashed in 2008?
James
Yeah
Gerrard
That I realized like, oh, I'm going to work, and there are people, whole groups of people that are no longer in the building.
James
Wow.
Gerrard
And so there was a level of anxiety and fear. like the whole entire accounting department was asked to pack up their stuff and transferred to another location or they were out of a job.
Gerrard
And I knew there was a woman who I was… who I was friends with, who was telling me all about her daughter's kindergarten, she just… her and her husband just planted roots in Greenwich, Connecticut, uh, which is where I worked. And her daughter was going to school. And then all of a sudden it was just like, boom, she had to leave.
James
Wow.
Gerrard
Um, and I just remember it being a very anxious, a very hectic time. I think this is also when the protests started happening, uh, in 2009, like on Wall Street.
James
Occupy Wall Street.
Gerrard
Occupy Wall Street.
James
Yeah, sure.
Gerrard
All of that was going on and I was just…and I realized how unhappy I was, but there was this, still this thought in the back of my head where I was just like, I want to be an actor,
Gerrard
I want to be an actor, I want to be an actor. And it started to get louder and louder and louder. The more we lost clients, uh, at JP Morgan.
James
Haha.
Gerrard
So I had these… I had like 4 hours free throughout my eight hour day, 8 to 9 hour day. And I just started… we had these two monitors and I always had my Bloomberg Terminal monitor up.
James
Mmhmm
Gerrard
And then on the other monitor, I would, I would be reading things about acting or reading interviews or I had this Harold Guskin “How to Stop Acting” book.
James
Sure
Gerrard
And I was reading that. And then when my manager Gigi would come by, I would…
James
Close that screen
Gerrard
I would shift, whatever…
James
Yeah
Gerrard
And close the screen and have both of my terminals up and running.
James
Hahaha
Gerrard
And I did that for about half the year of 2009 before a friend of mine, Brooks Brantley, who's he's he's a family member of mine now. Brooks suggested that I go to a conservatory. And so kind of in secret, he came to my house, in, my parents house where I was staying, and he helped me with the monologue.
Gerrard
I auditioned for this New York Conservatory for the Dramatic Arts, got in, told my parents that I was like, I'm going to leave JP Morgan behind. I'm going to become an actor. And it seemed like my parents were fully on board, my mom definitely was like, Son, do what you love to do.
James
Aww
Gerrard
Uh, Because she was like, the corporate life…
Gerrard
Like, if you hate this, it's just going to get worse. The more money you make, it becomes harder to then leave.
James
Yeah.
Gerrard
And especially, she was like, You're 20…. I was 23,uh, about to turn 24. She was like, You're young. You don't have kids, you don't have a family, do this. And I thought my dad was on board. Uh, he, he wasn't… right away. He..
Gerrard
I found that out later. That my mom and this is you know, I love, love, love both of my parents for this. But I love, I love my mom kind of telling my dad, like, just let him do this.
James
Sure.
Gerrard
You know, my dad in his mind, I think was like, what the hell is he doing? Like, he's got a secure job.
Gerrard
Like, why is he leaving?
James
Yeah, right.
Gerrard
There should be a better plan behind this. But that was kind of the genesis of it. And then I went from conservatory in 2011 to Pace University. That Grad program in 2014. Did a summer at LAMDA in 2016 and then did the other Masters at LAMDA in 2019. And now I'm here.
James
And here we are
Gerrard
And here we are.
James
That's… So I knew that you had done finance before. I didn't realize that you were there during 2008. That…
Gerrard
Yeah, I literally… I got hired, March 2008. That's when Bear Stearns collapsed.
James
Yeah.
Gerrard
But it was like, ah, it’s Bear Stearns, everything will be okay.
James
Hahaha.
Gerrard
And then in the fall of 2008, the winter of 2008 happened.
James
Yeah
Gerrard
And then it was like buddies that I graduated from Morehouse with were losing their jobs.
Gerrard
Goldman was okay. Like some of my boys at Goldman were fine. But like everybody else, it was, it was, we were in, we were in, like dire territory. So it was, yeah, it was, it was a very anxious, stressful time. And I quickly learned like, oh, I'm really only here for the money.
James
Sure.
Gerrard
You know, like, I think Jim Carrey has this quote where he says, um, I'd rather fail at something I love than fail at something I hate.
Gerrard
Or fail at something that doesn't bring me joy.
James
Right.
Gerrard
And so I was like, I could get fired like every day going into that office. There's a corner that I would turn and I would have my briefcase and I would I would turn the corner and I would just I wouldn't even fully step towards my… uh, the cubicles in which… where I worked with my team, I would just poke my head out and be like, okay, we're all still here.
Gerrard
All right.
James
Oh my God.
Gerrard
I don't see a box over where desk, but I do remember, I think the moment when I realized, like I truly have to go was when we had a supervisor. Um, so Gigi was my… was the boss of the team. But then we had like a supervisor, a manager…
James
Sure.
Gerrard
And there was a guy… and this just shows you just heart posture wise, why you shouldn't make fun of people.
Gerrard
But there is a guy that no one in the office really, truly enjoyed. And I remember this supervisor, this manager, would make fun, made fun of him the day he was fired. Like the morning we found out he was just, we were heading down to breakfast the whole time and he was just… and I kept my mouth shut because I knew, I knew.
Gerrard
I felt… I was like, I felt bad for the guy. The guy just lost his job.
James
Of course.
Gerrard
But this.. this supervisor was just making fun of him and joking. And then we got up from breakfast, and I remember uh, Gigi was like, hey, can I… can I see you in the office? And we were all teasing the guy. We're like, Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, go to the office.
Gerrard
And as we're setting everything up, as we're eating our breakfast, he comes back, He doesn't say a word, he's got a box. He's putting his stuff in box… in a box. And we're like, bro, what are you doing? Like, you messing around? Like, we were just joking about this. And he's like, no, I'm fired. And that sudden, the suddenness of it.
James
Mmhmm.
Gerrard
I was like.. Oh, I gotta. I gotta get out.
James
Yeah.
Gerrard
You know, and I've never gone back.
James
And you did.
Gerrard
And I did and I did get out.
James
You did. You did get out. And you have found success here in the, in the theatrical world, in New York. In the theatrical city. Like you, you are...
Gerrard
Yeah.
James
Making a go of it.
Gerrard
Yeah. It's, it's funny, man. It's like I feel like that just started to happen last year.
James
Sure.
Gerrard
You know? And so what is that, 2009 to 2022? Is 11 years, you know, like, no, 13, 13 years, 13 years before I booked something that, that changed, kind of the trajectory of my, of my career, which was I booked Much Ado about Nothing last year at Denver Center.
James
Yeah.
Gerrard
And I mean, all the fear that was there leading up to that point… because I had finally… I had my first pilot season in January of 2022 and I had been wanting that since May of 2011.
James
Yeah.
Gerrard
You know? And so you go… you go that long, and then you're finally there, and I think you, you can put so much pressure…
Gerrard
And I definitely did. I put so much pressure on myself. And even though I knew logically and even emotionally where it was like, okay, every audition, I can’t have the mindset that I have to book this thing.
James
Right. It's unsustainable.
Gerrard
But I, but I did, you know, it's just like, but it was there. Like every… every audition became something where it's like I had to book.
Gerrard
I had to be perfect.
James
Mmhmm.
Gerrard
Because if I didn't book, and if I wasn't perfect, or if I wasn't getting called back… called back in, callbacks, or put on hold, then my manager’s gonna drop me. I'll never… I won't get an agent. I'll lose everything that I've been working for, for the last 13 years, you know. And that was so much pressure to… that was so much pressure to, to, to put on myself.
Gerrard
And I was teaching at the New York Film Academy at the same time. And so… And sleeping on my mom's couch, my mom and dad's couch in Jersey. So it was just, what a wild time, what a wild year. And to book the job in, I think July, June… because it was before Helena got married. So June of 2022? Like, six months of just…
James
Wow.
Gerrard
It was a lot.
James
It's a lot.
Gerrard
It’s a lot, and it was a learning, it was definitely a learning curve for me as well.
James
Yeah, I mean, respect to you for sticking to it that long. I mean, that's years and years of, you know, any, any actors listening will know that. That's just kind of what it is.
Gerrard
Mmhmm.
James
It's just years and years of never knowing, never having a guarantee.
James
Um, I think that's one of the things that other creatives even, um, or people who aren't involved in the arts at all don't realize is that… when you look at people who have… who are on shows, who are, who are working…
Gerrard
Mmhmm.
James
Um, it seems like there was an inevitability to it. Like, these people were always going to have this job, get these work.
James
But when you're going through the audition process and the trying to find agents and the trying to meet the casting directors, there's never a guarantee…
Gerrard
Right.
James
Like until it happens… it might never happen, which is a terrifying thought when you're sleeping on someone's couch and working and trying to make every audition perfect.
Gerrard
It is, you know, and I, I remember one of the breakthrough moments for me emotionally… happened when I read this book, Station 11. And, uh, in the book, and they turned it into a show on HBO.
Gerrard
I haven't seen the show, but… in the book, the book follows an acting troupe like the world's kind of in this post-apocalyptic world. And there's a Shakespeare, kind of acting troupe. And I…
James
This is a show also…
Gerrard
Yeah, they made it...
James
Yeah, okay.
Gerrard
They turned it into a show. And I finished the book and I, and I had to, like, I remember praying one night and I had to ask myself, I was like, would I still do this…
Gerrard
Find a way to do this… if the world had ended? If, you know, like, would I be one of these people who just goes from town to town and acts? And I was like, Yeah, I would.
James
Mmhmm.
Gerrard
This is my purpose. And so… that, that shift of… I have to be successful, defined by the industry standards of success.
James
Yeah.
Gerrard
And even like… the dream standard of success. Because the dream of like, oh, I want to be in movies…
James
Right.
Gerrard
And I want to be… for me it was I want to be Denzel Washington in Glory…
James
Of course.
Gerrard
Slash Tom Cruise in Mission Impossible…
James
Hahaha.
Gerrard
When I was a kid, you know, I was like, Oh, I want to be able to do that.
Gerrard
And then you realize, like, there are people who are making a really good living, have families, go on vacation, put their kids through school who are not series regulars on television…
James
Mmhmm
Gerrard
Or Broadway stars or film stars. You know? That like the working… the working blue collar aspect of acting, which I think is so prevalent in London.
James
Mmhmm.
Gerrard
Because there isn't really that kind of star system in London.
James
Right.
Gerrard
Like that. I was like, oh, okay, this is possible. I can get married, I can have kids, I can travel, my kids can go to school, I can have a middle class life.
James
Right.
Gerrard
And be an artist. And that realization, coupled with the fact that I feel like, all right, I'm really in purpose.
James
Mmm.
Gerrard
And am I in purpose only when I'm getting paid to do the thing?
Gerrard
And that was a resounding no. And so the moment I feel like I let go of, I need to be perfect in every audition. The moment I stepped in and I, I'm still learning that. I'm still… that's something that I'm still, that I still have to battle, because I think that the desire to be successful and really I think the perfectionism that comes from me being a, being a kid, and wanting to break every single doubt that I think was placed on me. Like I grew up hearing, I grew up in a pretty racist community, uh, and went to a pretty racist high school. Where all I heard was, you're not good enough…
Gerrard
Even before I got to the high school… people who look like you go to trade schools. They don't go to private high schools… Uh, you should just pick up a trade. You know, you play the violin. No black people play the violin. You should… like just constant, the constant negativity.
James
Sure.
Gerrard
And even with all the encouragement from my parents that had a lasting impact, I think on me. Where I was like… I was always fighting against… lies that, that weren't true about who I, who I am and what I could achieve.
Gerrard
And so needing to let that go, I had a coach named Victor who I, who I still work with, who kind of had a nice powwow with me at the end of last year… where he said, he was like, every take you do, you think needs to be perfect. And he.. to hear that from someone else. And I was like… say more…
Gerrard
Go on what you mean. And he was like, You're showing your work because you want people to see how hard you've worked.
James
Hmm.
Gerrard
And I was like, And that just hit me.
James
Yeah.
Gerrard
And I was like, Well, yeah, man, I want people to see how hard I work because and then I, then I opened up and I was vulnerable and I was like, Here's what I've been through, man.
Gerrard
Like, this is the amount of racism that I've dealt with and the amount of trauma that I feel like I've, I've dealt with. And yeah, I need people to know how hard I’ve worked.
James
Of course.
Gerrard
And he's like, the moment you do, though, we see you care more about showing the work and less about being connected with another person.
James
Hmm.
Gerrard
And that's where all the magic is. That's where all your… that's where you come alive. And he's like, you got to find a way to reconcile that. And so this year, doing R & J
James
Mmhmm.
Gerrard
And working with Mad Company, working with Hannah again, like doing this play Coping Mechanism, the process that I now have is so inclusive of surrender and allowing my concentration to truly just be on, especially when I'm whether it's an audition or whether I'm in a scene with somebody that it's like, God, me, my scene partner in the space, everything else.
Gerrard
I don't… everything else has to go.
James
Yeah.
Gerrard
The moment I, the moment I, I start concentrating on anything else other than that is the moment I go back into that cycle of like, it's got to be perfect. It's got to be perfect.
James
Sure.
Gerrard
I got to be word perfect. Every scene has got to be, you know, fire and whatever else.
Gerrard
All the false encouragement that I think an artist can tell himself or herself themselves, instead of just truly being connected with another person. So that was I mean, now we're on Coping Mechanism.
James
Yeah, that’s…
Gerrard
But that was really like Coping Mechanism for me changed, changed how I work, changed how I, how I even approach the industry. Like there was a… So I'll talk… I don't… I want to go back.
Gerrard
I want to go through like how a coping mechanism came to be.
James
Yeah, let's, let's give a little context for this.
Gerrard
Yeah, context.
James
So, yeah, congratulations. You just closed on your off-Broadway debut.
Gerrard
Yes. Thank you so much.
James
Yeah. With this play called Coping Mechanism that played at the Wild Project in the Lower East Side, um, playwright named Cyrus Aaron…
Gerrard
Mmhmm.
James
Who I believe is getting some… some notoriety.
James
Sort of in the biz. He's… he's made a few things now that have gotten…
Gerrard
Yeah.
James
A little bit of attention.
Gerrard
Brother's talented.
James
Which is really exciting…uh…this show was… I saw it, I didn't realize… but the opening preview, I thought it was opening night. But it was opening preview.
Gerrard
Yes. Yes.
James
Tight little Four hand cast. You play… in addition to a smaller sort of bit character.
James
You play the estranged… the ex-husband of the main character maybe, or maybe the…
Gerrard
Ex-boyfriend.
James
Ex boyfriend.
Gerrard
Ex boyfriend of the…
James
Of the main character. A… I believe a year earlier there was a… I don't remember the timeline of the… of the tragedy but it, yeah.
Gerrard
Right. So I play a character named James, uh, who James is the ex-boyfriend of Deborah.
Gerrard
They lose their son to gang violence a year earlier. The play takes place in 2019. So in 2018, their son, Nate or Nathan, is killed by a gang waiting for a bus at a bus stop right outside of his school. And so the play deals with gang violence. It deals with trauma, it deals with how two parents who have mostly been estranged and James has…
Gerrard
James was not in Nathaniel or Nate's life for the majority of his life. How do they deal with the loss of their son? And also, how does Lindsey… Lindsey is Deborah's best friend. How do they… how are they all dealing? How are they all coping with this tragedy? And so that's what the play… that's what the play is about.
Gerrard
And I played James the… I couldn't look at him as the antagonist of the play, but now that I'm not playing the character, he…
James
From the outside
Gerrard
I would say he was probably from the outside, he's probably the antagonist of the show.
James
Sure.
Gerrard
Because he's the… what he wants more than anything is redemption and forgiveness. But then how he goes about it, like any, I think very well written…
Gerrard
Cyrus did such an incredible job, you know, like any well-written character, the thing that they really, really, really want gets pushed further away, the way in which…
James
Yeah.
Gerrard
They go about trying to achieve it or attain it. And so, James, how he goes about trying to get forgiveness is to get Debra to go to the graduation for his son.
Gerrard
They're doing a graduation, his class, Nathan's class, his 20… I guess the class of 2019, that because… they're graduating in 2019, they're going to hold a special honor, you know, honor they're going to honor him in some special way during the graduation. They want the two parents, Debra and James, to accept the diploma on their son's behalf while dressed up and give a speech, something like that.
Gerrard
And Deborah, from the very onset of the play is… absolutely Hell no. And James is… But this is going to honor my son and I need to do this. But how he goes about it is very, very argumentative and combative…
James
Yeah.
Gerrard
With Debra. And it isn't until the end of the play where he realizes that in order to get through to Debra, he needs to take accountability and apologize and atone really, for not being there for his son.
James
Yeah, there's… there were several beautiful moments where this character really… Either… I mean, I don't know how you decided to play it. But either as a tactic or as a genuine moment of mea culpa has some really beautiful, vulnerable moments. Whether James is confessing to Debra…
Gerrard
Mmhmm.
James
About himself, about how he feels, about how he sees the world in a way that at least it reads like he probably hasn't talked like that to anyone ever.
James
I mean, this is a… this is a proud black man who's also a cop like…these are not generally…
Gerrard
Right. Who's from the streets of Chicago.
James
Yeah.
Gerrard
So the armor is… I mean, it's… it's thick. The armor’s real thick.
James
Yeah, did you… in finding a way into this character, not just to play these vulnerable moments, but also to put on this character who is so self-protecting?
Gerrard
Mmhmm.
James
Was there… was it difficult to find one or both of those aspects to… to, to put them together so that you can have a character who is so reserved and yet has these moments of release?
Gerrard
Yeah, it was really… it was really difficult in the beginning of rehearsal because we didn't have a long rehearsal period.
James
Yeah.
Gerrard
I was, I was like, sobbing throughout this whole play.
Gerrard
Like I wasn't getting through scenes without shedding tears, without being so emotionally rocked by this tragedy. And I talked to… I talked to Trey about it. Trey… Tremaine Harris is the director. I talked to Trey about it. I talked to… even my coach. I had a phone conversation with him. I was like, Man, I can't even get through.
Gerrard
I'm supposed to… I'm supposed to play the character who's got it all together until the end of the play where he breaks.
James
Right.
Gerrard
And right now I'm broken from the beginning of the play. Like, what do I do? And I got some really good advice about that, which was… you need… you need the brokenness there in order to then learn how to cover.
Gerrard
Because we as human beings, all of our triggers are inside of us.
James
Mmhmm.
Gerrard
The mask that we present to the world becomes this way of… becomes the armor, becomes how we… how we hide behind… how we really feel. And so I needed to be honest and truthful about how I really felt and then add the layer of… the the posture of the, the police officer like I was looking at I was looking at cops like, I mean, they're all over the place in the New York City subway.
Gerrard
But just how they… how they stood and the width and the kind of like groundedness of the… of their posture. I found a couple of guys, especially big ones, that I wanted to steal from and then I really wanted James to have a lot of weight. And so in my rehearsals at home, I would strap on my backpack like instead of having it on my back, I would put it on the front stuffed with a bunch of books, hold, you know, a blanket, hold more things.
Gerrard
I would just walk around… with, with weight and like, walk around like that. And maybe for, like, as long as I could until I couldn't hold it anymore. Go through certain scenes, go through certain dialog with that, and then let it all go and see the effect on my body. And I felt like just a posture kind of came out of that and I started bringing that into rehearsal.
Gerrard
And then the moment we got the belt and the… the moment where I got the holster for the gun, the gun that they… that they… got was a… was a fake gun, but had a life like kind of a real weight to it.
James
Oh wow, sure.
Gerrard
And so the weight on my right hip and having the badge around my neck and just all of that, all of that work really started to help with the armor that James puts on.
James
Mmhmm.
Gerrard
And then the, the need… kind of going back to where you said like this… this idea of pride. And having made it out of the streets and having this job as a police officer and knowing that, I mean, this is a…and, you know, I think Cyrus hit the nail on the head with this, depending on where you are in the city, being black and being a cop is seen as a traitor.
James
Mmhmm.
Gerrard
You know, and that was echoed throughout the play.
James
Yeah.
Gerrard
Especially by… especially by Lindsey, who Deshawn played so well.
Gerrard
You know, like that's echoed throughout the whole play that, oh, you're black and a cop, like pretty much you've turned on your own people.
James
Right.
Gerrard
But for James, this was the way out, you know, And that's kind of I had to build my own kind of back story with that. Why did James become a cop?
James
Mmhmm.
Gerrard
You know, but like, this was his way out.
Gerrard
This was the way that he could provide. You know, they had a kid at 16 and his son dies at 16. So they're 32, about to be 33 years. They're they're like 32, 33 in the play. And so to see the job as a way to provide something stable… pension, all of these things. Wanting to clean up the streets in which he grew up, all of that adds armor and weight.
Gerrard
That ended up being very helpful.
James
Sure.
Gerrard
And I feel like by the last week of tech really like maybe the last few days of tech, I was able to start really pulling that armor together, you know?
James
Yeah, because this was, this was a really tight schedule. You had, what was it, three or four weeks of rehearsal and then a month of shows? Like that…
Gerrard
I mean, it was yeah, it was three… it was two weeks of rehearsal, a week and a half I think of tech.
James
Wow.
Gerrard
A couple of days of previews and then three weeks of a show.
James
Two weeks of rehearsal before moving into Tech?
Gerrard
Yeah. And we had two days of table, table work, so it moves so fast.
James
Whoa yeah.
Gerrard
And I remember talking to Ngozi, who's doing the Refuge plays right now. And she was talking about her process and she said fast and deep.
Gerrard
It has to be. You got to be, you go fast and deep. And so I kind of had that echoing throughout… throughout this process where I was like, okay, the time… the time that I have is the time that I have, so how can I go as deep as I can. And then really and this is where I think my process started to alter because I it had to alter this idea of trying to be perfect, really had to go out the window in this desire to still play, even though we were in previews, the desire to still play and find things even when we were in a show.
James
Of course.
Gerrard
You know me allowing not on purpose because I didn't want to mess with lighting cues or anything like that, but…
James
Right.
Gerrard
Allowing something new to happen, a discovery to be made, that's where… it like… that's where the show really became fun and reminded me of my time with Hannah and y'all doing R & J reminded me of working with Rodney that first time when we did It's not War…
Gerrard
I mean, it is War of the Roses. But…
James
Right, Margaret of Anjou.
Gerrard
Margaret of Anjou. You know, with that for me, the breakthrough of that and some of the notes that Rodney gave me right before we left LAMDA, you know, where he was like, Man, you are... You're so alive when you’re truly in the moment. And he was like, but there are times where I sense there's a… there's your third eye looking down on yourself, judging yourself.
Gerrard
I was like, Damn, how long am I going to get this note man. Like, I done got this note from… I've gotten this note from other acting teachers.
James
Right.
Gerrard
I go to London, I get this note.
James
It follows you.
Gerrard
I come back here, my…the acting coach that I start working with for this on camera class sort of gives me this note and it's like, okay, this is really a psychological thing, not an acting thing.
Gerrard
What am I going to do?
James
Right.
Gerrard
So there’s no longer… so this no longer affects me as an artist.
James
Absolutely.
Gerrard
Because trying to get everything right is the death of creativity, you know? And when you're no longer creating, especially live and connecting with people, this can feel…especially when there are expectations on you and there's a tight schedule, it can start feeling painful and not joyful.
James
Absolutely.
Gerrard
You know.
James
Yeah. On a… on a slightly more technical note.
Gerrard
Yeah.
James
You… you were talking about wanting to give James this weight so you physically strap on items. Umm… either with this role or just in general, when you start approaching a role, do you have a fairly consistent method? Do you… are you, are you a Chekhov guy, a Laban guy…
James
I mean, these are all things we learned at LAMDA. Like…
Gerrard
Yeah.
James
What has, what has stayed with you and what do you bring into your, you know, your practice… your regular, your regular approach to a character?
Gerrard
Yeah, I think… I think Chekhov takes precedent.
James
Sure.
Gerrard
Because that's what I think I… you know, Vince… Vince was a movement teacher, right?
James
Mmhmm.
Gerrard
Like Vince was my boy. So, like, being like, like real talk, Like, just being able to talk to Vince after… I would always run up to Vince in the hallway, I would run up to… I would go to Vince after class ended, I was like, Yo, like, how do you… how do you do this? Or this is how do I apply this to text or how do I apply this to an objective or to a scene where I want the character to reach a certain place?
Gerrard
And he would just… he would just talk to me. And so… Chekov kind of… the Chekov approach, definitely and all the psychological gestures… that definitely became my bread and butter and still is… I think, my bread and butter with how I physicalize actions. Laban - We… I want to use more of that… you know what I mean?
Gerrard
Like…
James
Sure.
Gerrard
There's so much that we learned. We learned so much theory and right before we were about to start applying all of it on our feet, the pandemic hit.
James
COVID.
Gerrard
You know, and then we were online. And so, I mean, I've gotten…You’ve got the Christopher Yets book, like I've… I've gotten various iterations of Laban when it comes to Yat Malmgren and Christopher Yets.
Gerrard
Yes the acting side of it not the dancing side of it. Books. I remember I got this… I believe this woman's book who teaches at… I think she taught at Drama Center. Drama center is no longer, you know, around, but she did… taught at drama center. I think she teaches at Central. But I got her book. I still have the book.
Gerrard
I keep renewing it. I think I've renewed it eight times at the library, thinking that I'm going to have all this time to redo.
James
This will be the one. Yeah.
Gerrard
Yeah. And that's where actually… the weight, that's where holding a bunch of weight. There's an exercise in that book.
James
Okay.
Gerrard
Where to physically experience weight, you know, weight, space, time, flow, like… strong weight
James
Mmhmm.
Gerrard
She has an exercise where the students are holding a bunch of heavy items and walking around, and then you let those items go and see how that… see how that effects your body. And so that was a Laban approach. And now my process, what I do now, especially because I would say the last two weeks of the show, I had a ton of auditions…
James
Mmm. Sure.
Gerrard
Which was amazing because I had no time to be distracted by the lack of time.
James
Yeah.
Gerrard
You know, where it’s just like, oh, it's just got to get done right?
James
Right.
Gerrard
And so my process is now become one where… I layer a lot of things in and however that kind of hits me in my spirit creatively, whether it's Laban, whether it's Chekhov that… I will, I will take the tool out of the toolbox that I've this tool, this 13 year old toolbox…
James
Yeah.
Gerrard
That I have…
Gerrard
I will take a tool out of that box… instinct…you know on instinct…
James
This is what it feels like and what’s called for…
Gerrard
And trust. Right. And trust my instincts with what I'm reading. And now I'm very much… I think because of the class I've been in for the last couple of years… I'm very… I'm very big on theme. What is the theme of the piece and how do we as artists, as actors, how do we embody that theme physically, emotionally, every objective in every single scene…
Gerrard
How do we do that? And so for me, that's now where I start. I’ll read… I’ll read a play, and I'm like, okay, what is the theme of coping mechanism or what is the premise?
James
Mmhmm.
Gerrard
And for me, it was everyone's coping mechanism is broken and the only way it's healed is through vulnerability. You know, something around there…
James
Sure.
Gerrard
And then I'm like… okay…
Gerrard
James.. What's my service to that theme? And I'm like, Well, my coping mechanism is broken and I refuse to be vulnerable. So James Literally…
James
So I'm incapable of this change.
Gerrard
There's an incapable. Yeah, there's in, in, in it isn’t until he's vulnerable at the end of the play that he starts getting healed.
James
Mm hmm.
Gerrard
But he still makes a choice at the end of the play to not show up to the graduation, which he's been wanting since the beginning of the play.
Gerrard
And so that's how I feel, like it could be of service. And then every other, you know, the when, where, what… you know, all those acting questions…
James
Right.
Gerrard
That we're told to ask. I used to just sit down and write them all by hand and would get very analytical…
James
Sure.
Gerrard
And would be in my head. Yeah, but now I'm like, what's this given circumstance? That. Okay, my son has been murdered, I don't have a child.
Gerrard
And I definitely made a promise to myself because my nephew is 16 and black… and lives in L.A… and I was like, I'm not going to go there…
James
Yeah.
Gerrard
So I need to… I need to find another avenue. So what if, you know, I think I had to really just use my imagination, say, okay, what if I had my own son…
James
Right, just play with it. Yeah.
Unknown
You know, what If I had a son? And what would that be like? And then that's when the Chekov tools would come out. That's when, you know, I started playing with like, where do I feel? Where do I feel Shame for having not been able to be there to protect my son. And this when the Chekov work comes in, it's like, what's that color?
Gerrard
Oh, it's yellow. It's in… it's kind of and with already the weight that I had as James. It's like ah it’s yellow and it's… or gold and it's kind of in between my… my traps… so it's like in the center of my back. And if I breathe into that space…
James
Mm hmm.
Gerrard
How do I connect with that? And then when I did, I'm like, all this emotion comes and I'm like, okay, there it is.
Gerrard
That's where I'm relating to this circumstance. So then I would go through a scene just focusing on that.
James
Mm hmm.
Gerrard
And then I'll be like, Okay, how do I feel about Debra? Well, we hate each other…
James
Yeah.
Gerrard
And we love each other. So where is the hate coming up? Where is love coming up? And just I just started layering things in one at a time because I think I have a tendency to want to rush in and play.
James
Sure.
Gerrard
And then my mind and how it works will try to focus on a bunch of fragments and nothing's actually penetrating down into the work.
James
Mmmm.
Gerrard
And so my process has changed now where I'm like, Let me focus on one layer… not worry about anything else, because I can put my attention or my concentration on one thing and let's see what happens.
James
Yeah.
Gerrard
And then… let me let that go. Move on to another layer and hope that it stays.
James
Right. See what is inherited from that.
Gerrard
Right. And that, man… like that became and it sounds… as I'm saying it, and I'm like, this is ba.... Like, that's basic. That feels like acting 101. But there's something about the years of training, getting all of it, and then remembering at the end of the day, no one can see behind the curtain.
James
Right.
Gerrard
Nobody's paying 30 something dollars. If you’re seeing an Off-Broadway show or, you know, more money… to sit and watch you be like, look at all the tools I've learned…
James
Right.
Gerrard
I've gained over the years. You feel me? So it's like that…that became something where I was like, yeah, Gerrard, no one could see the work. And you even… you… the faith that it takes to say, I put this layer in, I hope it's there.
James
Right.
Gerrard
And I got to trust that Trey, the director will let me know that it's…and that took… that took a lot of trust. Like, there were times where I didn't get notes at all…
James
Yeah.
Gerrard
I’d look at Trey and I would… and there's this thing… I remember talking to Deshawn about this who played Lindsay… where it's like… because of… I feel like the trauma you get in some acting classes, I was like, I must be… I must be messing up.
Gerrard
There must be something I'm doing wrong.
James
Right.
Gerrard
I was always approaching it from the negative. And it wasn't until I had that conversation with her and I had another buddy of mine who came to see the show during previews, he was like, why do you think you're bad? Why is your foundation or your, your neutral place that you must not be doing something good?
James
Right. It’s bad unless someone tells me it's not bad.
Gerrard
Right.
James
Yeah.
Gerrard
The light bulb that went off for me during the show, was that the audience and the outcome of this whole show… It's got nothing to do with me.
James
Mm.
Gerrard
It's not in my hands. Some nights we get a standing ovation, other nights crickets… like claps, people would clap…
James
Sure.
Gerrard
No standing ovation. Other nights, people sobbing at the end of the play, people laughing throughout the whole play…
Gerrard
Other nights, no laughs, no nothing. Show finishes, you get off stage, no one's coming up to you. Nobody's saying anything. And it really… I'm so glad I learned that here, you know, because this is a four person cast.
James
Yeah.
Gerrard
I felt like with the big ensemble of R & J or even at Denver Center, Much Ado About Nothing like that. I was one of like eight people, nine.
James
Right.
Gerrard
I don't even know how many there, there were of us in Much Ado, but like they're going to go up to the lead of the show and I'm not even the lead of coping mechanism. But if it's just four people, you know if people are coming up to stay in or what. And so… to literally get to the point where you're like… the audience and the outcome is not my job, the effort and the surrender is my job, and that became so freeing.
Gerrard
And now that's in every audition I do, that's in everything that I want to work on. I have to keep reminding myself that the outcome has got nothing to do with me, and then that can allow me to really play because I had a lot of… I mean, like if I'm just being transparent, like I had a lot of anxiety.
Gerrard
The first… the first few previews, the first week of the show.
James
Sure.
Gerrard
Because I remember my… my manager saying, hey, do you, do you want me to bring people out to this? I was like yes, bring people out. People need to see the show. And she just and she just asked me a question that I think any rep would ask, which is like, how’s your work in the show?
Gerrard
And I was like…
James
Oh, God…
Gerrard
Exactly! Where I was like, um, yeah, it's good. I think it's good. And she was like, okay, because I'll bring… I’ll bring producers or whatever. Yeah. And I invited some… and we had some talk backs for… a Broadway producer came to see the show and I was like… And then I just the, the imposter syndrome, the fear that like, oh man, what if they see it and I have an off night?
James
Mm.
Gerrard
What if they… I'll never work again. What if, what if, you know, like just all of that, all that negativity and really having to get to that point where that light bulb went off of being like, yeah, why do I, why do I start with the foundation that I'm not good?
James
Right.
Gerrard
Where is that coming from? Maybe I should bring this up in therapy…
James
Right.
Gerrard
You know, like… and how do I, how do I never step out on stage… Because I would step out on stage those first few previews in the first few shows and I would feel fine. And right before I come out as David, the conservative…
James
Right.
Gerrard
Conservative talk show host, person, news, news anchor, I would hear just the negative, I would hear the negative thoughts right before I would be in the curtain.
Gerrard
I would be fine… giving everybody a high five backstage, showing all the love to Cara and Mave, who were backstage working with us and, you know, hug the cast and tell everyone - have a great show and feel really powered up and ready to go. And then right before I step out the negative thoughts and then I was in, then I would have to, like, concentrate and immediately put my concentration on Deshawn, who's got that first scene with me.
James
Right.
Gerrard
And I'm actually looking out into the audience. As David put my focus on how I'm impacting them. I would have to do all this extra work to kind of silence the negative, the negative feedback, and it wasn't until a week later where that, that light bulb went off where I was like, oh, okay, the audience is not my job.
Gerrard
How they respond to this is not my job. And the outcome of the show in general…
James
Right.
Gerrard
Who shows up, what… you know, what casting director is going to come, what… all of that. I was like, I invited people. My rep is inviting people. None of it is in my hands anymore.
James
Yeah, you can only control what you can control.
Gerrard
Right. 100%.
James
Yeah. That's ano… I mean, I think that's just another way that arts… and specifically theater is just so much like sports. You know, it's always… it's a team effort.
Gerrard
Mmmm. Yeah.
James
You only control what your job is… if you do it well… and everyone else does it well… You… you win. You have a great night. The magic happens if you try…
James
But if you start focusing on things that are beyond your control and worrying about other people's jobs…be it, the director, the lighting designer, the other actors, then you're not going to be able to do what you need to do to bring the team forward, to bring the group forward.
Gerrard
Mm hmm.
James
So, I mean, in a… in a two slash kind of three week rehearsal process, that's a lot of discipline and a lot of trust that you have to bring both to yourself and your work, but also to everyone around you. I mean…
Gerrard
Yeah, it is, you know, and I think the fact that we… we were… Helene who cast the show, we all loved each other, man…
James
Mmmmm.
Gerrard
Like we… there was so much love in this cast. And Eric, who played my son like he's 23, 24, he was looking up to us with so much joy and so much life, so much energy, and so excited to be a part of the production and I mean to pray before opening night… to pray on closing night, to just the love and the community and the connection that we all had.
Gerrard
It was pretty, it was pretty instantaneous. During the rehearsal process, which was so necessary. And thankfully, Jess and I come from… I've known Jess because she went to Pace. She went to see a drama school, and so she came in in 2017 when I was graduating. And so we have… we can kind of… we have a shorthand. We kind of speak the same language.
James
Yeah. Absolutely. Shared history.
Gerrard
Yeah, right. And so there was a comfortability already there on that front. And then Deshawn, I've met working on a web series and I've, I've, I've known her for kind of just through other people for quite some time. So it was just and then like I said, Eric was just so happy to be there… that it… and Trey, Trey was this, is this incredible director who has this ability to really allow his actors to collaborate, really feel like they have input?
James
Mmmm.
Gerrard
And he still shapes the show.
James
Right.
Gerrard
Like, we didn't even realize it's just like, like subtle ninja kind of like, you don't even realize it's happening until you're like, Oh, yeah, there's some shape to this. And so for Trey to be able to do that while make… like the… I think I shared this with you after the night that you came, but the mirror moment was an idea that I just brought into rehearsal.
Gerrard
I didn't ask if I could do it beforehand. I think I might have said, Oh, I want to try something. And Trey was like, go for it. And I remember doing it, which is for the people listening in the play, James gets the graduation gown from Deborah to try on and he tries it on. And for me during that first rehearsal of doing that on our feet, I had the idea at home when I was working on the monologue or not the...
Gerrard
Well, when I was working on that scene, and then I was like, I think I'm just going to see if this works and to just kind of create the mirror and put it out in the audience. Fourth wall and for me, I made the choice that that's the moment Deborah has got a line where there's no mistaking that Nate was your son, something like that.
Gerrard
And then… for in that moment, for James to see himself as a fraud, to see himself, to see his son in the mirror, looking back at him and realize that he doesn't deserve to wear this gown, James doesn't deserve to wear this gown…
James
Yeah.
Gerrard
And to have that moment and for Trey to be like, yep, we're going to keep that.
Gerrard
And then all of a sudden a mirror existed…
James
And other cast members…
Gerrard
And Jason, Deshawn is right. Like Jesse who plays Debra, who's magnificent in the play as well. Like just everyone else just started using it. And I was like, man…
James
Wow.
Gerrard
And that's the first time professionally, I think I've given myself that freedom. The first time I really felt that freedom was, I think, at LAMDA.
James
Sure.
Gerrard
Where we were working with Rodney and Rodney’s like we had those private, you know, rehearsals with Rodney where we would go off and work with him. He would always say, bring stuff in, and I would, I think I got. I was so… kind of wounded during Pace and I had some great teachers at pace. I'm not I'm not going to like, you know, disparage the school.
James
Right.
Gerrard
And I think because, the way of working was so different there, you would bring in a choice and you would get kind of torn down. And there's like if you get torn down in response to your choice, it becomes that much harder to bring a choice in the room again.
James
Yeah, of course.
Gerrard
And so I think I kind of had that.
Gerrard
But when I was working with Rodney at LAMDA and that got even encouraged by Ali, by Hannah, by Penny as well, by everyone, really, where it was like, bring in a choice and we'll either give you the thumbs up or we’ll give you the thumbs down, but we're not going to make you feel bad for bringing in the choice.
James
Right, it works or doesn't work. But it’s not a…
Gerrard
Right. And I remember… I remember doing something. I was playing King Henry, the… I was playing King Edward the Fourth in that Margaret of Anjou play. I remember I brought something in rehearsal and Rodney was like…we're not going to keep that, but thank you. Thank you for bringing that in. That was really bold. And I just remember thinking like, Oh, so even though we're not keeping this, I felt affirmed that I could bring in the choice.
James
Yeah, absolutely.
Gerrard
And that for me was like a little… that was a seed that got planted that now, professionally, I'm like, the hell I've been doing. I'm doing this. And This is what I feel like in the acting class that I'm in. And Hannah definitely encouraged this in R & J… like, and I got the freedom to do that, especially as Benvolio and the dancing and…
James
Yeah.
Gerrard
How moonwalking on stage… all this stuff that I was doing came from that seed that has continued to get, you know, watered by hand and watered by my coach Victor, watered by my other cast mates and feeling like if something happens, if I discover something, especially if you discover during the…
Gerrard
Show, don't feel like you got to repeat it, allow it to, allow it to show up again in that going back to that show at LAMDA, I remember in the moment there was a moment where I wanted Nicole, who played my brother George, George Clarence, to bow to me and to the Daniel Day-Lewis, There Will Be Blood. I drink your milkshake gesture.
Gerrard
Just I had the thought in the moment and my body responded instantaneously to go over to her and do this and put my finger on her shoulder until… and I remember Nicole looked at me like and bowed. And I remember that moment and I was like, this is freakin dope.
James
This is cool.
Gerrard
This is cool. Yeah. That. To be able to affect another person in the moment, to have the idea come to you from God, from the universe, from whatever you believe as an artist, for it to come in… for my body, to be sensitive and responsive enough to respond to it, and then to come out in action and the action was written…
Gerrard
And this kind of goes back to Chekov and even the Laban work we've done, which is to like… get George to bow to me… there are many different ways you could do that…
James
Sure.
Gerrard
But, in that, in that moment that action got played out in that way. And then it's like, Aww, that was awesome. Cam, and we did it the second time we did the show.
Gerrard
I purposely was like… if it comes up, it comes up. Even in R & J. There's certain moments where I'm like, when I was on stage with you with that monologue, Benvolio’s monologue, or when I'm on the stage with Chris, like there was certain things that came out where I got off stage and Chris was like, yo, what was that?
Gerrard
I was like, I don't know. And then it's like, Alright, Gerard…
James
Right.
Gerrard
Don't try to force it to happen again. Allow it…
James
Yeah.
Gerrard
To come up and to be able to start doing that in a show live. And now to be able to start doing that in auditions consistently, that's where I feel like now my process has evolved.
James
Yeah.
Gerrard
You know…
James
And that's… I think, so much of the artistry of what we do as actors is putting yourself in a physical, mental, emotional space where you are able to do anything that comes to you in the moment, but also able to not do those things…
Gerrard
Yep.
James
If you, if you don't want to, if you think it doesn't…
James
Like what… like maintaining yourself, sort of floating in this space of availability for whatever comes, regardless of what's worked in the past, what's not worked in the past…
Gerrard
Mmmhmm.
James
You know, keeping in mind all of the work you've done, your knowledge over what your character wants. I think that's a remarkably tricky thing to do, to a place to sustain yourself over the course of a show just takes a lot of work and a lot of training.
Gerrard
Yeah.
James
But is… can be so rewarding for those moments that do come out of wherever and you are available to them.
Gerrard
Yeah, you know, you would… I don't know if you… if you've heard this in acting classes. I would hear this all the time because I went to such a method-y school. But like Brando with the glove i On The Waterfront, you know, like the glove drops and, while, Elia Kazan is rolling, you know, the camera.
Gerrard
And Brando just instinctively picks up a glove from his scene partner. I can't remember her name right now… And how, like aw man, that's such… you incorporate that in… live. And I've always looked at that as like, okay, a happy accident. How do you allow happy accidents to happen? And then how do you allow just there's this great book by Mike Alfreds, who used to work at LAMDA called Different Every Night…
James
Oh yeah.
Gerrard
Which is my favorite, favorite actor book, is actually, I think, a book for directors…
James
Mmhmm.
Gerrard
But he talks about that. This idea of like same action, the what is the same, the how is different.
James
Hmm.
Gerrard
And how can the how be different every single time? Even when the house dope one night and you find something and all of you on stage find something as a company, as an ensemble, it's like, okay, the next night or the matinee show, whatever it is, how do we allow it to be different if it's similar… cool. But let's not go for results.
James
Yeah.
Gerrard
Or, you know, going back to that, that, that light bulb that went on for me, the outcome is not up to me, you know, which I used to frickin strangle and, you know, wrestle the outcome to the ground…
James
Right.
Gerrard
Because if I could, then everything would be perfect.
James
Yeah.
Gerrard
You know.
James
This, this is what will happen. So I'm going to make it happen.
Gerrard
Exactly. Exactly.
James
It's tempting, but that's unfortunately not how it works.
Gerrard
Right.
James
But Gerrard James, thank you so much for coming in…
Gerrard
Yeah.
James
And talking to us today. I hope you all listening have enjoyed it as much as I have. Any, any parting words for our our listeners?
Gerrard
As artists… like in this industry, as tough it is as this industry is, there is the… there's kind of like the inner voice that you have… your, your artistic sensibility, your, your artistic self, your spirit that can't be… can't be like dissuade… or, or can't get value from the industry.
Gerrard
That's what I want to say.
James
Mmm.
Gerrard
Not to get your value from the industry. I think that's what I would…
James
Absolutely.
Gerrard
That's something… to get your value from within, to get confirmation and affirmation from your community and from your friends. That's what I think can sustain you through a 13 year period where you're like doing student films and…
James
Yeah.
Gerrard
Doing the student film where you're never going to get the footage or doing a student film where it's the middle of December and you're outside in Central Park on a bench freezing, and it's supposed to be a movie that's black and white and without sound, and you think it's going to be cool.
Gerrard
And then it shows up in it's not just black and white and without sound. No one's let… it's just black, like everything's dark. You can't see anybody… yet, you spent, you know, 8 hours across, three days shooting in the freezing cold.
James
In the freezing. Yeah.
Gerrard
You know, like it will sustain you through all that…
James
Yeah.
Gerrard
If you get your value from something outside of the industry or even if it's within the industry, your inner circle and people that you trust who can affirm your purpose within this industry.
Gerrard
And then it's like… if you're in purpose… success, which changes so much…
James
Of course.
Gerrard
Defined by industry standards, you'll be a bit more on solid ground. And the seasons could change. The weather could change and you… you'll, you'll still be solid so…
James
Absolutely.
Gerrard
That's what I'll, I'll leave it…
James
Wow. That's heavy, important wisdom from Gerrard James. Thank you so much for joining us and thank you for listening.
James
I am James Hale. We hope you tune in next time for another episode of One Hale of a Conversation. Bye bye.
Maddi
Thanks for listening. To learn more about any of the creatives who spoke in this episode, check out their social media links in the episode description.