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Church is messy podcast recorded at Autumn Ridge Church in Rochester, MN
Church Is Messy, 09-02-2026 Ep149
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Svea: Good morning, Rick. We're back with Church is Messy, and, uh, forgive me just right off the bat. Hey. My voice is a little gravelly
Rick: today. Esther, normally you take your smoke break after we record- ... but you had to go out, take a few drags before we recorded this morning, or we, we get- Hardly,
Svea: hardly. Yeah, I came down with strep last weekend- Yeah
and have been, uh, down for the count with a crazy scratchy throat now for five days, but, uh, I've got my penicillin prescription, and- So you- ... in theory I'm on, on the mend.
Rick: You are a trooper. You are here. You are carrying the burden of this episode- ... not feeling up to your best. My hat is off to you, ma'am.
Svea: Oh. Well, I wanna be here. I love doing this. I love working here. I love the ministry that we're getting to do, and I'm tired of sitting at home.
Rick: Okay. I, I love these conversations. This is fun. I can't believe this is part of our job. Yeah. We just get to chew the cud and talk about sermon stuff and following Jesus, church stuff.
Man, it's just ...
Svea: Yeah. It's good stuff, and hopefully it's helpful to some other people in addition to us. I know we're getting stuff out of it.
Rick: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
Svea: I was saying, just as we were walking down here, this current series on end times thinking and, and how we're- Mm-hmm ... preparing for the end has been just personally meaningful to me 'cause I did grow up in one of those environments that was really kind of pressured on figuring things out and, uh, even have a, a family member who's very fixated on trying to predict the end.
And, and every couple years I get a phone call from him, you know, saying, "I think September 23rd is gonna be- Wow ... the rapture this year." Wow. Wow. "Are you ready, and have you told everyone you know?" And-
Rick: This is another similar touchpoint on our past. So while we grew up in different places, different, very different types of churches, but some of the culture i- is similar. I grew up in a let's decode it. We had guest speakers come in, preach for a week, and we'd do a week-long, , evening services, and, , Russia loomed large, or the Soviet Union- Yeah
loomed, loomed large. I remember one, uh, speaker talking about something in the Book of Revelation, and he said, "Do you know what that is? That's an Apache helicopter." And- ... it, it's just, like, decode, decode, decode, and it was... I remember, did you ever do anything like this, going to youth conferences, Christian concerts, stuff like that as a teenager, and we would have rapture practice?
Svea: No. So I've heard you and some of the other pastors talk about this. Yeah. I don't think this was part of the Minnesota church culture. Okay. It sounds like it was more of a Southern thing. This is
Rick: Bible Belt. The, , heartbeat of, , a certain kind of American evangelicalism. And man, yeah, I remember people would be, like, on the microphone, they might make a cool sound effect and say, "Rapture practice," and then everybody had to jump up, and it was just, like, dumb churchy stuff.
But, you know, I like sharing the sermon this weekend. As a youth group activity, we'd go TP people's houses, too, so I mean, it's like- Wow, you were- ... not everything- ... quite a youth group. Listen, church is great. I love it. I... but not necessarily everything you do growing up in church is always commendable or- ... or the best expression- Yeah
of, uh, of what you could be doing, so.
Svea: We wanna come to see the truth- Yeah ... and let the truth change us. That's
Rick: right. Right? That's right. That's right. Church is messy, right, Svea?
Svea: That's right, it is. Uh, what do you think underlies this desire, though, , that we have to try to be able to predict the end?
Rick: Oh, I think there's just a tremendous fascination of being able to figure it out, maybe not necessarily being the one to figure it out, but being one of the ones to figure it out, being on the inside. This sort of temptation just among people, it's not unique to Christianity, but it is, uh, well, we see how it plays out in the New Testament.
There was , a type of kind of theology, , philosophy, heresy that we see emerging early in the 1st century. It's written about in the New Testament, really, really takes an aggressive form ar- around 100 AD and, and further on, and it's Gnosticism. It's my ability to know. It's just kind of like this secret level of knowledge.
Yeah, everybody kinda knows a little bit, but if you get this secret knowledge, then you're really in, and you know what's going on. People are drawn, and we see that today. Whether somebody is going down the, the wormhole on a particular conspiracy theory on 4chan, or it's other sets of websites, or, or books that people...
There is just this I've got it figured out, and I know what's really going on, and everybody doesn't know, and they're duped, and I'm not. There's just, it's an ego thing. It's a, it's a pride thing. I think I think human beings are just kind of suckers for- ... that kind of stuff. And I don't want to, I don't wanna equate eschatology, which is the study of the end times, which is a legitimate, uh, academic pursuit within Christian theology.
I, I don't want to equate that with conspiracy theory. I'm just saying that there is a perversion that can latch on to that.
Svea: Sure.
Rick: And that's what we wanna be on guard against. So I said this weekend, "Like the dumbest thing we could do is debate," and I meant that in the pejorative sense, like the, the ugliest form of the word debate.
I mean, have a view. Study. And, you know, we went through the, kind of the four major views. Land somewhere. That's totally fine. Mm. You don't have to land somewhere, but if you want to land somewhere, disagree with other people, disagree with me, totally fine. Come to your best kind of biblical understanding.
But the worst thing we could do is fight with other people about it, and whatever view we have, the result should be the same, that we're just trying to be faithful, trying to be loving, trying to build each other up and encourage each other. Yeah. And if it results in anything else, we know we've missed the mark.
Whether our interpretation of how the end times is gonna go down, whether that's right or wrong, we know what the result should be, and it's faithfulness, loving, encouraging each other and building each other up. Anything else- ... we're off the
Svea: mark. Say that again. That went by really fast.
Rick: All right. It...
Listen, land wherever you land. W- it doesn't matter whether you're right or wrong. Mm. The result of your life should be the same, that it is your mission to be faithful, loving, encouraging each other building each other up. Whether your interpretation is right or wrong, if it's not resulting in that in your life, you are off the mark.
Svea: Mm-hmm. I love that. That's such a healthier approach to thinking- I wi- ... about the end times ... I
Rick: wish it's what I grew up with. I know it's what you wish- Mm-hmm ... that you grew up with. And, there were some pastors not too long ago, were just, I mean, earlier this year when we entered into, , a conflict with Iran, started breaking out the prophecies and started ta- And I'm just like, "Guys, come on.
Maybe you're right, maybe you're wrong. But what you're not doing is encouraging people to be faithful, to be loving, to build each other up and encourage each other. You're getting people to fixate on a timeline, not Christ's likeness right now." Mm-hmm. And that's a problem.
And when we see it, we just need to go, "Nope. No, no, no, that's not what Jesus wants." We're not gonna do that. Yeah. We're not playing that dumb game.
Svea: I totally agree that I think for many people, a fixation on trying to predict when Jesus will return- Yeah ... is in that strain of just- Mm-hmm ... wanting to have that knowledge- Mm-hmm
wanting to solve the mysteries and put the puzzle together and see if we can figure it out. I think for other people, there's a sense of, of just clinging for certainty. Mm-hmm. That it's hard to live in a gray area- Yeah ... in a lot of aspects of our life, and so if we could figure it out, it would be like, "Oh, okay, now I can see what's coming," and-
Rick: Well, let's double-click on that.
Remember that, that these people were, they were mistreated, they were persecuted, they were on the outside. Sometimes they were hunted thrown in prison, sometimes killed, property confiscated. It was challenging to be a Christian. It took guts, and it took courage, and this was written to encourage them- Mm-hmm
so that they could stand firm, so that they could hold fast, so that they could live with confident hope as ambassadors of a returning king. Mm-hmm. Right? And not be overwhelmed or daunted or afraid of the Empire of Rome or anybody else who might have immediate power over them.
Svea: Mm-hmm.
Rick: And so if you're longing for certainty, the certainty is that Christ is King and that He is returning.
The other stuff is fuzzy.
Svea: Yeah.
Rick: And if you try to find your certainty in that, you are off the mark. Christ is King. He is returning. Be with him, become like him, do as he did
Svea: There you go
Rick: And then you're ready. You're ready for his return.
Svea: Well, and I see incredible wisdom in scripture in, in giving us this expectation that- you're never going to know. This is going to happen at a time when- Mm ... no one is gonna be able to successfully predict this. Mm-hmm. There's such wisdom, 'cause imagine if scripture actually told us the year that Jesus was returning, like at the, the negative impact that would have on every single generation, all of the generations that knew.
We're not the last generation, so, it's not our issue to, to have to face. And also for the generation, if they were to know they are the one, think about all kinds of lawlessness that would result.
Rick: So listen, when my wife goes out of town, right? So she, she's flying out this week.
She gets to go, she gets to take a trip to Utah and, uh, see a friend, um, who is on the mend and, uh, re- seems to be recovering well after a pretty serious cancer surgery, so we're excited about that and for her to, to go and be with her. But she's gonna come back, and, uh, we, uh, we're a family of stalkers. I don't know, I don't know if you guys do that, but we got the, we can- I
Svea: wasn't yet aware of this
Rick: We, well, just use the Find My, and we, we've all shared our location- Oh, yeah
and so we can see where each other is, and we've even got an Air Tag on the dog collar.
Svea: Oh, yeah. It's, it's Our, our family's like that, too.
Rick: So- Mm-hmm ... it's not unrealistic to think on the day that Heather returns that, you know, she'll text me that she landed, and I'll be tracking her location on the drive back from the airport- Sure
to home so that I can get, you know, the dishes- Oh, okay. ... you know, cl- and everything done just in time. Like, I'm the just in time kinda husband- Ah, I see ... when the wife is away. And I just kinda think that if Jesus had said, "You know, I'm gonna come back on September 14, 20-" you know, whatever, uh, I think a lotta people would be like me and just be like, just in time.
Like, let me see if I can kinda scramble and get some stuff done. And s- and the focus would be On the when- ... instead of what does it look like to live as someone who believes He's coming back? Yeah. What does it look like to live as someone who loves Jesus and adores Him as king, and is a citizen of his kingdom?
And so, I think there's just some genius. You s- you call it wisdom I agree with you. I think there's just some genius in the way it's presented so that we focus on the right things. 'Cause if I had different information, I know I'd probably focus on the wrong things.
Svea: Sure, sure. So you said in this last weekend's message that we can't predict Jesus's return, but we can recognize patterns.
Rick: Oh, yeah.
Svea: So talk a little bit about the patterns- Okay ... that you're thinking of.
Rick: Here's, here's some, uh, stuff that didn't make it into the sermon. So we get to toy with this for a little bit. Not, not as much time as maybe some people would've wanted, or I wish that I would've had. But there, there's this pattern of self-rule and rebellion, um, I can do it on my own, and I can be like God, and I can be the m- I can be the moral authority.
That is, that's what happens in Genesis 3. That's what happens when the serpent comes and tempts the man and the woman. And whatever the fruit, uh, is, that, that she eats it, and, and she gives it to the man who's with her, and, and they eat it, 'cause they're trying to be like God.
And we see that pattern play out all throughout history. We see it in, in particular people, individuals, um, we see it with groups. That happens at the Tower of Babel . We see that in people like Pharaoh, we see it in Nebuchadnezzar, we see it in S- we see it in all kinds of people.
And I bet, I bet if we could kind of unpack it, you would see it in you. Mm-hmm. And, and I could tell stories of, of how I see it in me. Um, it's just this pattern of behavior, but on, on a big scale. What we see are c- nations rise, and they try to exert power to establish significance and security. And it works until it doesn't.
And it eventually stops working for everyone. But there's this, like, pattern, and this playbook I'm gonna see if I can make sense. I wish that I could do this visually, but- ... this is an audio podcast, so- Okay,
Svea: we'll lis- ... we'll see if people can follow ... we'll listen hard here.
Rick: Do you remember the golden circle?
It's three concentric circles. The center circle is the why.
The next circle is the how, and the final circle is the what.
Svea: Yep. All
Rick: right. So for this kind of recurring pattern that starts all the way back in Genesis 3, and I think this is the pattern that Paul is, at the very least, Paul is highlighting this pattern when he talks about the man of lawlessness.
As you read through Revelation, I think it's shining a spotlight on this pattern throughout human history. The why is self-rule.
I'm the authority.
Svea: Mm-hmm.
Rick: The how is power and control. And the what is, so why I'm in charge. The how is gonna leverage power and control. What does that look like? Military might, economic advantage, cultural prominence.
And so the way that you see this play out, and I think you can watch it in the headlines now, and people see it as it's an indicator that Jesus is coming back. They're trying to decode the end times. No, this is just a pattern of human history. Military might, that's where significance and security comes from.
Economic advantage, that's where our significance and security comes from. Cultural prominence that's where significance and security comes from. And then there are three additives that if you ever include these, watch out, it will supercharge, and that is religion, nationalism, and ethnicity.
And if you combine religion and military might, or religion and economic advantage, religion and cultural prominence, it's gonna supercharge a movement. You could do the same thing by mixing in nationalism. You could do the same thing with mixing in ethnicity, and it'll supercharge those efforts.
And we see that playing out all throughout human history. Mm. And we see it playing out right now. And if we are wise, if we are discerning people, I think we will recognize how people are trying to hijack our faith and mix it in with military might, or economic advantage, or cultural prominence, and they're not, they're not doing it out of reverence for Jesus.
It's always done out of self-rule and rebellion. Let's don't be suckers for that. We see it in our country. We see it in other countries. It is just, it's a pattern that goes all the way back to Genesis 3. So I think we should just be on guard. Now, I'm not saying that Christians should not participate.
Oh, we absolutely should. But whenever the why is, we're in charge, we're the boss- How is power and control? The what is military might, economic advantage, cultural prominence. Let's don't let any of those efforts be baptized by religious language, certainly not by language of our faith, to advance something that is anti-gospel.
And so what is our golden circle? What is the why? What is the how? What is the what for us? Well, it's this. What's the why? It is the compelling love of Christ. He's our king. What's the how? It is the Spirit-filled life. Things like love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness faithfulness, self-control, all of that, that is empowered by the Holy Spirit in our lives.
So if we're gonna stand fast, if we're gonna. Stand firm, we're gonna hold fast, it is the Spirit of God at work in us making it possible as we trust in Him. And then what is our what? It's the local church. It is in this community. That's what we should look like, it should be the contrast, the distinctiveness from the way of the world should be so clear that a blind man could see it
Svea: I love that.
So you had said that while we're not focused on predicting-
Rick: Mm-hmm ...
Svea: the end times, that we'll know that we're prepared when our church is becoming more like Jesus. Yeah. When, when- The,
Rick: the church that know the church that's most ready for the t- return of Jesus is the church that looks most like Jesus before his return.
Svea: So unpack that for us a little bit more. Like, how do we move in that direction to be a church that is looking more and more like Jesus?
Rick: At the risk of sounding like a broken record- first is faithfulness, and that is, "Jesus, we're gonna trust your way, and we're gonna follow you.
We're not gonna use anything in our circums- about our circumstances as an excuse to
deviate from what you've made clear to us." Number two, we're gonna be loving. Love motivates everything we do. Everything is determined by that. Three and four, we're encouraging each other. We're building each o- We just focus on that. And I've got some stories, I heard some stories this week of some powerful encouragement in our church, and it's messy, and, and it's not really the kind of story that I could tell yet.
It's stories for other people to tell. But I met with somebody yesterday who just had this profound moment of, "Christ met me in my life at a point where I was feeling pretty wobbly and pretty low, and it came through other people in the church- ... who were with me in it, were humble, were incredibly loving and encouraging to me."
Svea: Hmm.
Rick: And I was just, like, moved to tears as this person is sharing this with me, and I thought, "Wow, it is happening." And I know that there are big stories and tiny stories all over this church. It's, so it's just keep doing that. Just keep doing that. That's it. And we don't need to make it complex. It's simple.
Sometimes it's hard. For me, the reason it's hard is because, you know, my insecurity gets in the way, and my pride gets in the way, and my my love affair with, various sins that I'm not gonna list right here on the podcast get in the way, right? Yeah. But most of the time it's my, it's my pride, um, it's my love of comfort, and it's my insecurity that gets in the way that makes it hard.
It's simple. It's not complicated, but it's hard because people are messy, and I'm leader of the pack in that.
Svea: Well, I love the focus on faithfulness. Mm-hmm. Faithfulness to Jesus, love for each other, to encourage each other, to build each other up- Mm-hmm ... with humility and with wanting the best for each other.
That really seems to be a clear application of that verse that talks about perfect love casting out fear. Mm-hmm. And there can be a lot of fear involved when we think about the end times- Mm-hmm ... and both the unpredictability of it but even just the, the things that maybe we've heard- Mm-hmm ... that have gotten conflated with- Mm-hmm
you know, talk of persecution and tribulation and, and- Mm-hmm ... raptures and all of these things that, that can induce some fear. Um, how do you see the call to love- Mm-hmm ... the call to building each other up and encouraging each other, diffusing what otherwise could seem like a fearful topic?
Rick: Yeah. First of all, all of those images, I think those are things that ebb and flow throughout all of human history, and they're gonna continue to ebb and flow until the return of Jesus.
So depending on where you live in the world, it's either getting better or getting worse, right? And it's just gonna kinda go up and down, we're, all around the world for all of time- Mm-hmm ... until, till Jesus returns. But man, at, at the risk of sounding cliche- ... you know that, that, you know that f- when you have somebody in your life who is, who's with you, who loves you, and you love them, or you have other people like that, it, uh, it makes hard times easier and good times Makes good times better.
Right? And so we're made for we're made for community, and I can think of times in my life where I've been f- stressed out, overwhelmed, trying to figure it out, and for someone just to say, "I got your back." We're, we're not gonna let anything bad happen to you, or, "We're in this together" Mm-hmm
it's amazing how that just, it's amazing how that diffuses that.
Svea: Yeah.
Rick: You know, let's say I'm really excited about a, a, a new opportunity th- that we have here at our church, Reengage, and our first round of Re- this is for kinda to help marriages kinda get back on, on track and to, and to grow healthier.
And the first round is slam full, and there's a waiting list for the next offering, and we're just looking forward to offering more and more and more. And so let's say, let's say you're a couple, and you're just like, "Man our... Love my wife, love my husband, don't always like him. Things are tough right now.
We're kinda at each other a little bit." And so, okay, I imagine that's something that almost every or a majority of couples can relate to. There are couples who kinda do that by themselves, or there are couples who have friends who are like, "Guys, yeah, get it. We have your back. We love you. We are for both of you.
You don't have to carry this in the dark or alone. And shame is a liar."
You know what I'm saying? Mm-hmm. And so that's a totally different thing than just by yourself.
Svea: Yeah.
Rick: Or whether it could be anything in life. It could be anything in life. You could try to carry it alone, or you have other people who have your back or encouraging you, and they're, they're with you, and I think that's...
So that is, that's it. That's it. It- It's nothing more complex than that.
Svea: That, that idea of how that diffuses- Mm-hmm ... either fear or shame or- Mm-hmm ... or the, the negativity that surround things. Diffusing those bad things I feel like was a great application of the Second Theles- Thessalonians passage that you preached from last weekend.
Rick: Where- You said that gracefully. Second-
Svea: Let's just blame the- ... Thessalonians ... the throat on that one. Yeah. Yeah, thank you for highlighting that.
Rick: You're welcome, Svea. Do you feel, do you
Svea: feel encouraged right now? I feel encouraged and built up. And not at all. Yeah, and not at all embarrassed right now. No, it's all good.
Um, in, in that passage, you pointed out how Paul was doing that, too, for these people that were afraid that maybe-
Rick: Yeah ...
Svea: they'd missed- Yeah ... Jesus's return. Yeah. And, uh, and that they were reacting out of a certain sense of fear and dread, and he didn't just knock them on the head and say, "Hey, snap out of it."
Mm-hmm. "You, you gullible people. You fell for- Mm-hmm ... for someone who was pulling your leg." He was just very pastoral- Mm-hmm ... very, very much just like, "Hey, let's take a breath here."
Rick: Careful, kind- Yeah ... compassionate. Yeah.
Svea: Yeah. And has such a great reminder for us in the things that we can get kind of worked up about- Mm-hmm
that are even big things like evil- ... and lawlessness.
Rick: Yeah.
Svea: That these are not insignificant that they pale in comparison to the power of Jesus-
...
Svea: Who can conquer this with something as mere as the breath from His mouth.
Rick: That's right, and the glory of His return. Yeah. Mm-hmm. I think it's awesome.
Svea: Yeah.
Rick: So awesome.
Svea: I, you know, as throughout the scriptures, I think before we've really studied them carefully, it's easy to think that scripture is telling this big, epic story between the powers of good and evil- Mm-hmm ... and God and the Devil- Mm-hmm ... and that there's this, this focus on heaven and hell. Mm-hmm.
But that's not really what it's all about.
Rick: Mm-mm. No. I
Svea: mean, it's, it's God- And his creation.
And it's heaven and earth.
Rick: Yeah.
Svea: And we give way too much power to evil-
Rick: Yeah ...
Svea: and, and, uh, and ascribe too much fear, too much dread, too much power to the things of evil, and not nearly enough- Mm-hmm ... power and awe- Yeah
for the power of God.
Rick: I think we're gonna ... I hope the aim is, uh, in week four of this series that that becomes crystal clear. We're gonna do our best to shine a big spotlight on that. So as we're talking about this, overcomes overcomes this by the breath of his mouth, I'm ... I can't help but think about the time in the Garden, and John wrote about this, that we have these, these guards, these armed guards, these hardened men with wearing body armor, and they've got swords or axes and shields and daggers and all this stuff, right?
And they come to arrest Jesus in the Garden. And he sa- And they, he says, "Who do you seek?" And they said, "Jesus." And he said, "I am he." Mm. And they all fell to the ground.
Svea: Mm.
Rick: And so just opened his mouth. And so the, the strongest dudes in that scene, or the most, the ones who appeared to be the strongest dudes in that scene, they just unraveled right then.
They're done. And then he allows them to arrest him. It's just to demonstrate, no, he has power, and he just chooses to keep it at bay to lay down his life for our good. But when he comes back, we'll see, um, w- he's not laying down his life. He's raising all anew, right? And so we get to, we get to be with him, and he shows that that evil and injustice and death and all of it permanently falls before him, never to get back up again.
Svea: So how can we take that really good principle- Mm-hmm ... and what we know to be true about Jesus and use that against the fear that might get stirred up in us when we hear the latest news cycle or the bad news or the person that, you know, like the story you opened up with your mom waking you up with, "The police are here, and they wanna talk to you."
Rick: And they wanna talk to you. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you, Mom.
Svea: So when we, when we hear things that just cause our stomach to drop and the fear to start getting ramped up- Mm-hmm ... how can we cling to what you were just pointing out about Jesus in a way that helps us traverse those kinds of moments?
Rick: I want to be helpful.
I don't know if this is helpful, but I'll tell you what I do. Mm. Sometimes I'm like, all right, what if the worst happens?
And? So the worst happens, and?
Svea: Yeah.
Rick: Jesus is still king. I mean, we're, the gospel is still true. I'm still gonna have my church, you know. I'm still ... I'm just gonna trust it. I trust him, and I trust his way, and I trust that he is the authority over all things, and I trust that all of the promises of God are yes in Christ.
What's gonna change that?
Svea: Yeah.
Rick: And?
Svea: Yeah.
Rick: Yeah, it might be hard. There might be some hard things. I might have to endure some hard ... Wor- worst case scenario, I might have to endure some hard things in the same way, uh, that my brothers and sisters in Christ around the world have had to. Uh, and let me use this as an opportunity to break up with the sense of entitlement that I carry inside of me.
There might be hard things. In this world, we will have trouble. But don't be afraid, he's overcome the world.
Svea: That, that's a hard truth, and yet I do resonate with it. Mm-hmm. I think some of the times in my life when my worst case scenario actually did happen- Mm-hmm ... there was almost a feeling of empowerment- Mm
through it, that, "Oh, okay, God can still see me through this."
Rick: Yeah. "
Svea: God still can be faithful to me through this." Mm-hmm. And, uh, and I'm actually kind of grateful-
Rick: Yeah ...
Svea: for some of those experiences to realize, yeah, that's true. It's, the worst things happening don't mean that everything unravels. It might be really difficult- Mm-hmm
and, and hard to- Mm ... endure at the time. But, you know, like Romans 5 promises that when we're encountering that kind of suffering, that suffering can lead to perseverance, and then perseverance to character, and ultimately, that character to hope.
Rick: Absolutely. And so if you're kind of wrestling with this question and our answer feels unsatisfying, come this weekend, we're gonna talk a little bit about some stuff that might help.
But this is one of the reasons that I think we need the whole church community, because when you are facing something like that or you're feeling something like that maybe you've ju- you're on the front end of actually experiencing your worst case scenario, you should have people in your church who are much further down that road- Mm-hmm
who are standing in confident hope in Christ, and have experienced him through that, and they can loan you their courage and their faith and their strength that they gleaned from Christ through that time.
Svea: Mm-hmm.
Rick: And so we n- we need our church community. And so if you're concerned, you need to be around other people who've gone through it, or worse, and let them share with you what they've experienced with Christ.
Svea: I wanna bring this whole conversation full circle-
...
Svea: And staying yet in that vein of why we need community. Mm-hmm. Um, one of the principles that you talked about in the message was that we wanna be people who are not easily deceived, and the, the church in Thessalonica had this issue where they'd been deceived-
Rick: Yes
Svea: and it was causing them to be afraid. Mm-hmm. And Paul was trying to correct- Mm-hmm ... uh, correct this thinking that they had. And I think this is a, a reason why we do need to be in community with other people, so that when we're encountering things that are maybe causing us to feel a little bit wobbly or something, we've got some other people that can speak the truth.
And I loved the application point that you made about, you know, when was the last time that you let the truth change you?
Rick: Mm. Yeah. You know, it's powerful to have other people in our lives to go, "Hold on a second. That doesn't quite sound right." Because sometimes my my, my feels, my emotions, my whatever they're pumping so strong that it's hard to think clearly, and I just need someone to go, "Hold on for a sec.
Can we think that through?"
Or someone to ask, "All right, what does it look like to trust Jesus with this thing? Have you thought it through? Let's think it through together." You know? Mm-hmm. That's so p- that's so helpful.
It's so helpful.
Svea: And I think it's doubly helpful- Mm-hmm ... in a topic like this where sometimes the instinct can be so much focused on trying to figure it out- Mm-hmm
that we realize, oh, maybe it's not up to me individually to figure any of this out, but instead to live in community with people. Mm-hmm. And together we're just going to walk forward in faithfulness. Mm-hmm.
Rick: Absolutely. Absolutely. So we're in... We're never not embroiled in some conflict around the world.
We're never not embroiled in some conflict seemingly in the Middle East. Is this building up to, uh, the return of Jesus? I don't know, but probably with each sunrise we're one rotation, you know, closer to the return of Jesus, you know? We're one day closer. I don't need to figure all of that out.
What I need to do is to be faithful and loving, encouraging and building, building up my brothers and sisters in Christ.
Svea: So good.
Rick: That's it.
Svea: So I know you're still in sermon-writing mode for this coming week. Mm-hmm. But can you give us any little bit of a sneak peek at what, uh, what we're gonna be focused on this weekend?
Rick: So what happens after the end? And why is it that the afterlife is so commonly an afterthought?
Why is it that Christians, who are supposed to be excited about going to heaven, are like, "I don't know, kind of sounds boring"?
Svea: Yeah.
Rick: Let's talk about that a little bit. I
Svea: remember having that thought of- It's-
I don't really want to sit on a cloud and play the harp for eternity.
Rick: I wanna have fun.
You know? Like, I want... Yeah, yeah, yeah, Jesus, great, but, I got some hunting trips I wanna take. And is there beer in heaven? And, you know, it's like what's going on? Why is the afterlife so commonly an afterthought for followers of Jesus?
We'll talk about that.
Svea: All right. Well, I look forward to that.