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Ducks Unlimited Podcast is a constant discussion of all things waterfowl; from in-depth hunting tips and tactics, to waterfowl biology, research, science, and habitat updates. The DU Podcast is the go-to resource for waterfowl hunters and conservationists. Ducks Unlimited is the world's leader in wetlands conservation.
Mike Brasher: Welcome back, everybody. I'm your host on today's episode. I'm Dr. Mike Brasher, and I'm joined in studio by Dr. Jared Henson here to my immediate right. Jared, welcome back.
Jerad Henson: Happy to be here.
Mike Brasher: And on the other side of Jared is a first-time guest here on the Ducks Unlimited podcast and in the Ducks Unlimited studio, Nathan Ratchford. Nathan, welcome.
Nathan Ratchford: Yeah, thanks, Mike. My name is Nathan Ratchford, as you Just mentioned. We got that right. Yeah, we're good so far. I'm the conservation communications coordinator here at Ducks Unlimited NHQ. I've been here just about a year, a year this September. Nice. Does it feel like a year?
Mike Brasher: Does it feel like two years or three months?
Nathan Ratchford: It feels like three months. Does it? Yeah. Time flies when you're having fun.
Mike Brasher: I'm actually the old guard here. Yeah. An old, a lot of things here. So tell people what you do as a conservation communications coordinator. What type of things occupy your time on a daily basis?
Nathan Ratchford: Yeah, absolutely. This is a brand new position for Ducks Unlimited within the communications department. And my job is to kind of work across different departments, you know, from the magazine to traditional communications to the digital space and social media and identify some opportunities for larger messaging in our conservation work, but also to get our message in front of different audiences. It's really just every day is a bit different and we're We're kind of building this plane while we're flying, so to speak. But so far, it's been a fantastic year. And I've been able to work with yourself, lots of people within conservation, but also people in the digital wing. And yeah, it's been an interesting first year.
Mike Brasher: You came to us from where, tell us a little about your background, because my hope is that we'll be able to get you on future episodes to contribute to other topics. So, tell us a little bit about where you were before you came to Ducks Unlimited.
Nathan Ratchford: Yeah, absolutely. I was the associate editor at Gun Dog and Wildfowl Magazine, publications that I'm sure some of our audiences are familiar with. I was there for three years and before that I ran my own small media company and did a lot of different work, social media marketing, Contract work just about everything that would pay the bills. So yeah, I for a while now I've been wanted to get into the conservation space and You know was kind of just waiting for the right opportunity actually at Ducks Unlimited specifically and had this this job flagged from a a friend of mine and who actually works here as well, Joseph Genzel. A longtime buddy of mine who actually had my job at Gun Dog and Wildfowl as well. So, it's a small world, this industry. But yeah, that's a little bit about me. Originally from Northeast Pennsylvania too. So, the South is new to me.
Mike Brasher: Made the move to Tennessee last year. You're a big fan of dogs. You don't have, I don't think you have a lab. Tell us about your dog. You just have one dog right now, is that right?
Nathan Ratchford: I have two dogs.
Mike Brasher: Okay, tell us a little bit about that.
Nathan Ratchford: Yeah, I'm a longtime dog man ever since I was six years old and could physically carry around a book. I've been carrying a AKC dog breed book and needed to know every breed and that passion has definitely followed me through life and I'm very passionate about training my own dogs, working with dogs. And I have two dogs currently at home. I'm advocating for a third but my fiance hasn't gone on board just yet. But I have an older lab, big chocolate male, who's kind of slowing down. And I have a, he'll be two this fall, a Deutschdrahthaar, which is a German bred, German wirehair pointer. They're just bred to be a little bit more versatile through a standardized testing system. So, he hunts just about everything, so he keeps me busy.
Mike Brasher: Yeah. I think we've seen him around the office a time or two. I don't know that we've seen your chocolate lab here. I've seen the chocolate lab.
Nathan Ratchford: He's usually found napping in my office. Oh, that's right. I have seen him.
Mike Brasher: Yeah, I have seen him. Okay, good. Well, that's appropriate that you have that background because, you know, the primary topic that we're going to talk about today deals with dogs and specifically some new rules that a lot of hunters that would have heard about and we tried to sort of communicate out about. Import rules for dogs coming into the U.S., really from any country, one of the primary areas of concern would be people, American hunters, going to Canada this fall to hunt with their dog, and then when they cross back into the U.S., they were going to find themselves having to encounter some regulations that they previously didn't. And so, that's what we wanted to talk about today, give people a little update. There have been some things in development, some simplified regulations that are now in place. And so, Nathan, as part of your job as the communications coordinator, you have been on top of that issue. You have been responsible for checking with our policy staff and reading up on these regulations, writing some digital articles, and then working to get some of that out on our website and social media. So, I'm going to turn this over to you and have you sort of step through what you know, what you've learned. Perhaps let's start off with what are the rules right now? What are the most important things that hunters need to know? Then we'll kind of back up and we'll talk about some of the justification for all of this. But right off the top, what do hunters need to know if they're going to Canada? and coming back into the U.S. or if there's hunters abroad anywhere looking to come into the U.S. with their dogs.
Nathan Ratchford: Yeah, absolutely, Mike. The first thing that hunters need to know is that these guidelines that are currently in place that go in effect on August 1st. Today, when we're recording this. Yes, today. were recently revised as of July 22nd. So, it's important to make sure that the information that hunters are, you know, looking at have that timestamp.
Mike Brasher: Or dog owners of any type, right? Hunters are obviously one of our primary audiences, but dog owners of any type.
Nathan Ratchford: Yep, absolutely. And these new guidelines that are in place that have just taken effect today are a simplified version of what was originally proposed by the CDC at the end of June. Those guidelines were a bit more involved, a bit more stringent, and to be honest, a bit confusing to a lot of people out there. In an attempt to simplify the communication around this in the process, the CDC provided those guidelines on July 22nd. So when referencing those, that's what we're going to be talking about. So the first biggest change is the requirement of what's called a dog import form. Now what is actually included on that form has also been simplified. It's just some standard information about the breed, age, your information. That can be filled out on the CDC's website. And once hunters complete that, which it's recommended to do a week before travel, but you could do it actually at the border crossing itself. As long as you have self-service. Yeah, it's important. And you can also print out a physical receipt that you've completed that form or a screenshot or a digital… receipt that just proves to the crossing agent that you have in fact completed this form. That's the only physical documentation from the CDC that's currently required. Now there are other new additional requirements that go beyond just documentation. The first being a standard microchip that needs to be compatible with this, you know, I think it's a global scanner they call it, You know, that's another requirement. And the last biggest change is the age requirement. Dogs must be six months old in order to cross, so they can't be any younger than that. And I think that's generally because between the age of three to six months is when the rabies vaccine is administered. Now, in addition to that, you want me to go into
Mike Brasher: Well, let me ask you, I just want to kind of, so I want to make sure that it's one thing for us to talk about this and tell people these things. Ultimately, they need to also go online and make sure they read all this stuff and go get the correct forms. And so you and our web team have developed a, um, we have a page on our website, right? So if you go to ducks.org, go into the search bar, type in CDC dog import rule or dog import regulation, it will take you to that, that website. It says simplified new CDC requirements, updated July 30th, has some links in there. It lays out in specificity the things that you're talking about, import form, good health, microchip, age requirements, other additional information here, and I'm looking to see, yep, it should have the CDC, yep, CDC website is linked in here. So, ducks.org, and then just search for CDC, or yeah, dog import form, and you'll get to that page.
Nathan Ratchford: Absolutely. If you search dog import form or just CDC, it'll be the first result. And that webpage is constantly updated. It does direct our hunters to the appropriate forms and information, including the CDC's website, as well as the form itself, that dog import form. It directs you directly to that and you could fill it out right there. It's kind of a one-stop shop if you're a little bit confused around this issue, because it's, it is a bit complex, you know.
Mike Brasher: So, when an American hunter is going into Canada, they're not going to have to worry about this particular, any of this particular requirement, right? Technically. It's only when they come back in the U.S. when they would, when they would encounter this requirement. Now, obviously, you want to have all this stuff taken care of before you go into Canada, so that you can… can get back in with your dog without any problem. What about when they're going into Canada? Is now a good time to talk about that?
Nathan Ratchford: I do want to clarify a few more things about that dog report form because these have been some of the changes from their initial proposal, the CDC. The import form itself is valid for six months. So, once you fill it out, you don't need to do it every time. That's been a change. That's been part of the CDC's effort to simplify this process. Fill it out once, you could cross however many times you want this season. Now, it is important to note that every dog, so, if you got a string of retrievers or you're a trainer, every single dog needs its own individual form, right? Another thing to note is that this form is free. I just want to make that clear to our hunters. There's no cost associated with this. Totally free form. But some of those things, those are worth noting, you know, for everyone crossing this fall.
Mike Brasher: Have you talked to anyone that has completed the form? So, we wouldn't have been able to, we wouldn't have talked to anyone who would have necessarily, you know, kind of encountered the need to have all this because it just went into effect today. But have you talked to anyone who's filled out the form, tried to access it, tried to go through this initial process and encountered any issues or is it still too early to kind of have that experience?
Nathan Ratchford: Yeah, it's a bit too early to tell just yet.
Mike Brasher: So, what about when going into Canada? What, if anything, do hunters or anybody else with a dog need to be aware of?
Nathan Ratchford: Yeah, absolutely. So, in addition to the CDC's requirements, which will affect, as you mentioned, hunters coming back into the United States, the Canadian Food Inspection Agency has its own set of requirements for people coming in with a dog. Now, they also have different requirements based on what type of dog. If it's a service animal, if it's a pet or, you know, things like that. Most of our hunters, the pet classification is gonna apply here. So nothing new from the Canadian Food Inspection Agency, but just as a reminder, you do need your rabies vaccination certificate, the initial one, which is signed by your veterinarian. And beyond that, it's just your dog needs to appear in good health. So, nothing in addition to that from the Canadian side of things. You got anything?
Jerad Henson: I just had some clarification. Yeah. Kind of good health. Yeah. Seems subjective. Are there any guidelines on what that is or is there any resources out there for someone who says and ends up in Canada and your dog gets sick? Is there anything out there for that?
Mike Brasher: If you show up at the border with a dog hacking and coughing and all that kind of stuff, they're probably going to raise some eyebrows.
Jerad Henson: But I think for me, it came to mind. Injuries happen. Sporting dogs have some stuff. So I wondered if there were any resources for that.
Nathan Ratchford: You know, I'd have to revisit the CDC's website if there's any further elaboration on that, but I think given that this is specifically around rabies control, if your dog's not, you know, showing any common symptoms of that particular… Don't be foaming at the mouth. Yeah, something like that.
Mike Brasher: I don't know where I read it, maybe it was somewhere totally different, but something to the tune of, you know, no visible signs of illness or something.
Jerad Henson: I kind of looked at it, but I wasn't sure.
Mike Brasher: I'm sure we'll get some stories as we go through fall and, you know, as people get up there. If you have those stories, please send them along. Let's see here. Anything else, Nathan? So, the requirements for going into Canada, those aren't new. Those have been in, same ones that have been in place for quite a while, right? I have never gone into Canada with a dog. I've been to Canada hunting a number of times, but it's been a long time. Actually, we used to have a dog and we would go visit my wife's family, but I don't recall any anything we had to really do there. Probably, I think we always had our rabies certificate because you, and perhaps that's the other thing that I would advise people to do is make sure you have all these forms, the required forms, but also have other forms with you. You know, don't go in Underprepared. If anything, go in overprepared. Make sure you're familiar with these regulations. If you encounter a Customs and Border Protection agent that is telling you something a little bit different than the way you think it is, don't argue. You know, I've tried that before. It doesn't work out very well. So, try to have a conversation with them. It's okay to have some documentation and try to explain where it is that you're understanding comes from, but be careful, don't argue, because that'll end you up real quick in a place where you don't want to be. And so, yeah, just be prepared and do your homework. Again, we've got these resources here online on the Ducks Unlimited website, so go check that out. We're going to take a break right now. I do want to talk, Nathan, about why CDC, what we know about why CDC did this in the first place, what is it they're trying to address, because any time we put in regulations as any kind of agency or government, they're trying to address something. What is that? It doesn't really have to do with hunting dogs, I think, as we've come to learn. The other thing that I wanted to talk about is what has Ducks Unlimited's involvement been in getting these regulations simplified, if any. And then we have another topic to discuss also related to importation of things coming from Canada. And in particular, we're going to revisit what we know currently about import rules for harvested game birds coming back into the U.S. from Canada. We'll make sure we share that information. A bit more information to go. Uh, stick with us folks. We'll be right back. Welcome back everyone. I am here in studio with Dr. Jared Henson and Nathan Ratchford and we're going to continue our conversation about CDC's new import rules for dogs coming into the U.S. and Nathan wanted to talk about why the CDC is doing this. What prompted the CDC to implement any kind of regulation related to the import of dogs? When you think CDC and dog import, you know, as you mentioned rabies, Immediately we think this has something to do with disease control or something of that nature. What's the issue that led CDC to do this?
Nathan Ratchford: Yeah, Mike, the big issue here is concern around the reintroduction of dog rabies into the United States. So that's where essentially all of these protocols stem from. From 2015 to 2021 there was a handful of confirmed dogs that got into the United States carrying rabies and from 2021 up until the end of July, so this is actually… this new protocol stems from all of this. Up until the end of July the CDC had a complete ban from importation countries that were considered high-risk. So no dogs could come from those, I think, 113 countries. So this is… it's been an ongoing thing for the CDC and this is kind of an attempt to safeguard our dogs here, our people here, and to make sure there's, you know, no new cases developing here. Since 2007, the United States has been considered rabies-free, and they want to make sure that that remains the case.
Mike Brasher: And it really doesn't have anything, I don't want to say anything, the high risk. They don't view the movement of hunting dogs from the U.S. to Canada and back into the U.S. as being the reason for this. That's not the high-risk group of animals, right? But you can't just carve out an exclusion for that, right? Right. So what's the other group? I read something somewhere, but I'm having difficulty recalling it. What's the group of import, and without speculating too much and pointing a finger unnecessarily at someone, what's the other kind of group? What was the big issue that was… of more concern regarding this risk for introduction? Then there's some group of, I don't know, what am I trying to say? Do you know what I'm reaching for?
Nathan Ratchford: You know, there's a lot of different concerns around this, and a lot of different groups, and you might be thinking of, you know, the classification, rabies, free countries versus high-risk countries, because Canada, under their classification, is a low-risk country. So, two totally different groups, right, that this applies to. That being said, there has been a lot of cases of falsified documentation. Is that what you're thinking of? That's what I'm thinking of.
Mike Brasher: Like who's the group that's falsifying documents to bring dogs into the U.S.?
Nathan Ratchford: So that's just another factor that went into this, these new guidelines from the CDC. And that's why there's such an emphasis on that dog import form, because it identifies your dog uniquely, you know, so there's no passing it off as a different animal. And then you slip a dog into the country that's carrying rabies, right? Because that's where a lot of these You know cases from 2015 to 2021 were really that was kind of the circumstances around them You know falsified documentation and and that sort of a thing Yeah, I was just gonna say it sounds like a lot of these are due to try and keep Dog breeders and things like that kind of in check. Yep, and just also people finding loopholes, you know if they're traveling abroad and They're over in the Middle East somewhere and they find a dog that they're really fond of and you know they want to find a way to bring it back. You know there's a lot of. dynamic things around this and just one case of rabies can have a big impact.
Mike Brasher: And disease is, as anybody in the waterfowl or bird field right now knows, disease, wildlife disease and the interface of those diseases and humans and the pets that humans associate with is a big topic of concern right now. Avian influenza is obviously kind of what I'm alluding to, disease well beyond just avian flu that is increasingly occupying the time and our financial resources of state fish and wildlife agencies, whether we're talking about CWD or any of the other emergent diseases and also human health concerns right now. So there's heightened concern worldwide around the transfer introduction of diseases and so this is just sort of another step in trying to control that. We don't know anything right now about Canada changing or implementing regulations to try to match some of what we're putting in place, what the CDC has put in place, do we? Not at this moment.
Nathan Ratchford: Yeah, I mean, they've been, of course, closely monitoring the situation. But at this point, Canada has a bit of a, you know, their own unique guidelines and qualifications for people coming over.
Mike Brasher: So, Nathan, we talked about the simplified regulations that came out in late July. Prior to that were some more onerous regulations, requirements associated with the import of dogs into the U.S. and that got people in quite a bit of an uproar. I know there are a number of agencies, organizations that had contacted legislators and other administrators and were saying, hey, can we do something a little more reasonable, especially on this short timeline? I don't know if there's going to be any change to this kind of going forward, but at least the concern immediately was this is very onerous to a lot of people that are otherwise law-abiding and low risk for the issue that you're trying to address. What, how did that, how did the simplified regulations come about and what was Ducks Unlimited's involvement or role, if there was any, in that?
Nathan Ratchford: Yeah, absolutely, Mike. So, as you mentioned, those initial proposed guidelines which came out at the end of June, they not only had a you know, kind of, you know, guidelines that weren't there were a little bit excessive. But beyond that, the process was confusing.
Mike Brasher: Yeah, it was hard. I remember you and I sitting down trying to write that article or you were trying to write it and it's like, I
Nathan Ratchford: I don't know. So that was their biggest concern and that's, you know, this dog import form has really simplified that process and we commend the CDC for doing so. You know, it's a lot simpler. Requirements are, you know, initially there was a USDA-endorsed veterinarian who needed a sign-off on your rabies certificate, a bunch of things like that. In July, Ducks Unlimited supported U.S. Representative Nick Langworthy out of New York in a bipartisan letter that he sent to the CDC urging them to simplify or delay these new guidelines. That was endorsed by several other conservation organizations and sporting agencies and Ducks Unlimited was a big part of that as well. And shortly after, you know, in addition to that, as you mentioned, Mike, there's been a lot of public pushback around this because it affects a lot of different people. Everyone from mushers up in Alaska crossing the border constantly to field trialers up in Montana. Dog shows of all sorts. Yeah, dog shows, you name it. So this has implications far beyond the hunting community. So this has been definitely a joint effort from a lot of different stakeholders, and Ducks Unlimited has definitely been a part of that. We've been closely monitoring the situation, our policy team. since it was initially announced, and we'll definitely consider to do so moving forward. We've been in touch with the CDC via email, as well as in close contact with Canadian officials, and we'll continue to do that leading up to the hunting season and, you know, as we prepare to start off in Canada.
Mike Brasher: We'll continue to update that website?
Nathan Ratchford: Absolutely. I just updated it yesterday, so yeah, we're constantly updating that for our members.
Mike Brasher: Good. This is a good example where a lot of times it's easy to get frustrated with rules, regulations, and sometimes we feel helpless as the people that those rules and regulations affect if they cause some kind of disruption to the way we normally do things. But great example of how we can influence, we can speak out through our legislators, our elected representatives, your participation, your involvement with NGOs and other organizations that have the ability to influence those policies, this is a good example of how that works. Make your voice known, make your opinion known through the channels that you have available. And the other topic that I want to transition to now is another example of that very same thing, and it involves the kind of the blow up a few years ago of avian influenza. and the USDA Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service, I think I got that right, USDA APHIS, yeah I'm looking at right here on my screen, Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service, they imposed a rule, actually it was a complete ban on the import of harvested game birds from Canada a couple years ago and that was in response to the outbreak of avian influenza, a pretty substantial outbreak at that time. And so that got a lot of people's attention. Many of our members go north into Canada to hunt waterfowl and they do that because they want to, they enjoy it, but they also want to bring that meat back for personal consumption. And so Ducks Unlimited members became vocal through our elected officials, Ducks Unlimited staff, engaged in conversations with USDA APHIS administrators and help them rewrite those restrictions. We've kind of documented that in previous episodes. And I wanted to give people an update on where we stand with that now. So we got the ban that first year was quickly revised. And then there were some sort of less than, I mean, it wasn't exactly as we wanted it. You had to remove the skin and that was a big, It was sort of a point of contention for a lot of people. That's not the way we originally wanted that to happen, but nevertheless, that's the way things played out. Last year, we worked with APHIS to revise that, to allow the skin to be retained. I'll go through the specifics here of how you had to treat those carcasses coming back in. And that was, I think, a welcome change. A few weeks ago, we reached out to our friends and colleagues, their administrators in APHIS to ask if there were going to be any changes to the import restrictions this year. And the word we got was that there are no restrictions, no changes to the restrictions and the import rules from last year. They do hope, like we do, that someday we can return to pre-avian influenza import guidelines and rules where you don't have to worry about eviscerating, removing the head, anything of that nature, but we're not there yet. It certainly didn't help this year that we've had the flare-up detection of avian influenza in dairy cattle that just kind of re-elevated the concern around avian influenza and its potential to transmit into different groups. Jared, you and I talked about that. Nathan, you and I have an article coming out in the DU Magazine about sort of the latest on avian influenza, what we know, and I think we even mentioned these import restrictions and sort of a sidebar import guidelines in that article, so you can look for that, but the bottom line is that the import restrictions for bringing harvested game birds back into the U.S. this year are the same as they were last year. Yeah, so just as a reminder here, and I guess what I'll say is, just as we have a spot on the Ducks Unlimited website describing the dog import restrictions, we also have a place where you can go and get these restrictions or regulations or rules for bringing birds back in. Go to the DU website, search for avian flu, it will take you to that website, and then you can find up at the top of that page where you can click on a link that will take you to the actual USDA conditions, they call them, revised conditions for allowing hunter-harvested game birds to be brought back into the US. Briefly, you have to remove the head, you have to eviscerate the bird, remove the guts, you have to remove the neck, the feet, And one wing, you have to leave one wing attached for species identification. You have to remove all the feathers, but you can leave the skin on. Leaving the skin on was the important change that we made from year one to year two. You have to clean the carcasses, store them in a leak-proof container. Um, it could be a plastic, you know, Ziploc bag is going to be sufficient. Make sure there's no blood or dirt or anything else on the outside of those, those plastic bags, and then store those chilled or frozen in some kind of leak proof cooler or something as you, as you bring those back. Um, but yeah, just double check those. Make sure you are very familiar with the, uh, with those, those import rules there. And I'm going to double check on this. Um, you guys have anything when I do this?
Jerad Henson: I'm just gonna say I'm glad they allowed skin on. I mean for anyone who really likes to cook duck, that's the ticket right there.
Mike Brasher: We heard about that the first year. That's one of the reasons we went back, you know, pretty early year two saying, hey, can we get this revised to allow skin on? If you go to our website, ducks.org, search for avian flu, it will take you to our avian flu website and the very top image gives you an example of the the condition that these birds can be brought back in. One wing attached, all the feathers removed, head, neck removed, feet removed. Now, you could pull out the breastplate if you wanted to. You don't have to bring back the whole carcass if you don't want. But anyway, that's an idea. It gives you the… Um, the specifics there, what I would advise people to do, if you go to that webpage at the very top provides the update, and then it gives you a link to go here. It goes to the actual USDA AFIS announcement of that revised statement from August 3rd of 2023. You know, print that out, have that with you. Again, if you run into any challenges at the border bringing animals back across, be polite. Show them where you're getting your information. And if you run into any issues, I would encourage you to let us know. We've told people all along if you And we've had USDA, APHIS, the import office say, if y'all hear of any issues bringing birds across in this condition, let us know. We want to work with Customs and Border Protection to resolve these issues. So, if any of you encounter issues, hear of issues, let us know. You can send that information to dupodcast at ducks.org and we'll look into that and make sure that USDA APHIS kind of knows about that and hopefully we can get that resolved. It may not help you the very moment that it's happening, but, um, hopefully we can help clarify whatever, um, hurdles folks may encounter. Hopefully there won't be any. If you, whatever you went through last year in terms of bringing birds back, if you were successful in doing that, you should be able to do the same thing again this year.
Jerad Henson: Yeah, and if you want a quick science lesson on the, I don't know about how quick, but on avian flu and APHIS, I think Dr. Mike did a pretty great podcast with him in the past.
Mike Brasher: We've done, we've talked about, yeah, we've done that a number, we've had a number of episodes on avian flu. Probably going to have another one here in the future, near future, with another guy working in that space and kind of give folks an update on it. But anyway, just wanted to touch on that real quickly, let you know that Those import rules for bringing harvested game birds back into the U.S. are the same as they were last year. Go find those resources and hopefully you'll have to put them to work whenever you get out there, get up to Canada. That's all I've got. Y'all have anything else to add here? Not at all.
Nathan Ratchford: Yeah, I'd just like to add, Mike, just for our members, make sure you follow us on our Ducks Unlimited social medias. We make it a point to update this information in a timely manner. These new CDC guidelines, we had that new updated website up the next day after they're announced. We really try to inform members in real time and update them on what they need to know and what's most important. I'm just relieved to hear they allowed us to keep the duck fat on.
Mike Brasher: Yeah, keep the duck fat on, keep the duck skin on. You got to take the feathers off though. And like I said, hopefully going forward, we'll get that revised again. But thanks everybody for tuning in. Nathan, Jared, thank you for being here, for the great information on all these import stuff. Chris Isaac over there, our producer, appreciate the great work he does. And we thank you, the listener, for tuning in and thank you for your support of Wetlands and Waterfowl Conservation and we'll see you on the next episode.