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Introducing ReFolkUs, a new podcast by Folk Music Ontario, where we talk to artists and music industry professionals about building sustainable careers as creative workers, with a focus on folk.
[00:00:00] Rosalyn: Hello and welcome to Refocus. Our guest today is Fred Penner at an early childhood education conference. Acclaimed family entertainer, singer, songwriter, composer, actor, writer, author, TV host, and keynote speaker Fred Penner, delivered a simple, yet powerful message. Never underestimate your ability to make a difference in the life of a. With more than 40 years of commitment to the Canadian music industry, . He is a four-time Juu Award recipient and started in 13 seasons, nearly 1000 episodes of the hit C B C TV series, Fred Penn's place. Over these decades, Fred has toured extensively across North America. Created 13 albums of music for his legions of fans. And his visibility has allowed him the privilege and joy of using his voice as a spokesperson for World Vision, unicef, unesco the Canadian Down Syndrome Society, and countless other organizations working with children on our planet.
Fred has garnered critical claim and a host of awards, including the Order of Canada, order of Manitoba, an induction into the Western Canadian Music Hall of Fame. Welcome, Fred. Thanks for coming on the.
[00:01:06] Fred: Who is that guy you were talking about? Hello? Rosalyn.
[00:01:08] Rosalyn: It's you, Fred. It's so, wonderful to get a chance to chat with you.
[00:01:13] Fred: Yeah. Really? Yeah we just touched on some connection when you played on my last album, and I was so delighted that you were able to do that. But yeah, often we don't just get a time to sit down and talk and and knowing your family and your mom.
I'm I'm delighted to speak with you.
[00:01:27] Rosalyn: Oh, thanks Fred. I wanted to, start with sharing a special moment with you where I just kind of clued into. A little bit more into who you were, and it was when we were working on the album, hear the Music which you recorded with the wonderful Ken Whiteley.
And feel like I had a, a Musician's Day in Toronto. I was like a frazzled , coming from one thing or another and showed up in the studio. got some tea and took a few breaths and sat down and before we recorded on the song Children's Garden I remember you saying to me like, I just want to describe to you, what the song is about.
And you went into maybe like, A five minute description of this beautiful garden in the Santa Boyn park. And then there's a slide, and when you come down the slide, you see a frog and then this . And it was so, so joyous and so detailed. And it was a, a revelation to me to see that you really brought true.
joy and intention into your creativity and into your music. and this is, a 2017 album After, a 40 year career. How do you keep being inspired and bringing joy in into your music?
[00:02:36] Fred: How indeed it's getting harder now. I mean, as I am in officially SEP world. , finding the inspiration to sit down. What do I want to write about, what do I want to create? is there anything left to do? I mean, after 13 albums and a lot of, music I'm not feeling as inspired as I, as I used to be because so much of what I've done, Was writing to task.
And when I did Fred Penn's place, I told the writers for the series, a as you're putting the a script together and you come to a point where there's no song that really fits from the list of tunes that I have, just write down Penner Original and and send that to me for two minutes.
And so I would have a. Path that I could follow. And I need that in a way. I need to have someone say, write me a song about this or that and then I can focus in, if I just have to sit down and try and figure it out myself it's little more challenging. But when I do sit down and write,
especially if it's for family, for children's. Cuz I do write songs for a more adult audience occasionally. But if I'm writing something for family, I go back to my childhood. I try and do the kind of thing that I did with Children's Garden in describing that to you. , which I would hope give you some picture of, cuz you've been there, you know what a CVO park is like.
And if you feel that inside, then it'll be expressed through your music. So I do that to myself, I think. Okay. If I'm writing about this then when I was eight years old, what would my perspective be on. How would I feel if I was in that environment? Where would my spirit carry me and what kind of music, what kind of flow would come out of that?
So I try to get into head space as much as possible of where I want this to carry me. And then the music often just flows from that. I tend to write lyric before I write melody for the most part. And once the lyric is there, then I can just massage it into, some framework that works for me.
And then edit, and edit until it's finally done. , the creative process is so very exciting to me. And I'm so honored that I've been able to do this as my life career for, 50 years.
[00:04:53] Rosalyn: it sounds like it, it's it's really empathetic in the way that you write,
[00:04:57] Fred: yeah, well, I hope and you never know when you write a song how an audience is gonna respond to it. So all I can do, all any of us can do when we're making a song is to write it from as strong, as clear as honest a place in our. And then once it's out it's not your business anymore.
It's out of your control. You have to just trust that what you did was what you wanted it to be. And then if people react then all the more power to it. But you can't necessarily define that it's gonna work the way you want it to.
[00:05:30] Rosalyn: did you say 50 year career? No. Is it 50 years?
[00:05:33] Fred: I'm 76 now, and I started in 1972 with corn stock. With a band with Al Simmons and Bob King and Mike Clam. My, my first, you know, major comedy show band. that was 50 years ago. The cat came back, came out in 79, and then I worked with Rai's Company for five years and then the TV came along and then, once I did that first, and the timing of it was so perfect because that's when the post-war boomers were having kids and, it, it just took off from there.
But I sort of put 72 as my start year.
[00:06:08] Rosalyn: Amazing. I was really interested by like the, all the different types of creative work that you've done. It's not just recording albums and performing that know, also did the TV work and and writing work and voice work and theater and, and all sorts.
[00:06:23] Fred: of
[00:06:24] Rosalyn: Yeah. All sorts of stuff. And is that inspiring to you? Was it out of necessity? Was it a choice to, to kind of diversify what you were doing?
[00:06:32] Fred: Certainly a choice. It was inspired in a way from awareness of mortality. You may have read that business. I had a sister who was born with Down Syndrome and and she died. In the early seventies, 71, and my father was was very ill from cancer and alcoholism and he died less than a year after Susie.
And so I had these two pretty well ultimate hits.
In my awareness of mortality and my, and the two people that I loved dearly. And I had just graduated from the University of Winnipeg with the BA in economics to live my father's dream cuz he had always wanted to go to university but couldn't.
So, so that was a huge turning point for me. I realized I did not want to be an economist, but I had no other, in my mind, marketable. . I loved to play guitar. I loved to make music. I love to perform. I love choirs. And I said, well, let's see if any of that. open a door for me. So I started uh, auditioning for lounges and bars, My, my first paid gig was the Can Can Lounge at the Baltimore Hotel on No , for 75 bucks. $25 a night. Anyway so it, it began and I thought, well, this people are gonna pay me to get up on a stage to do so. And then I thought, well keep, your channels open. And then I was in a, in a whack of plays in the seventies as corn stock was touring the country.
And I did some work at Manitoba Theater Center and then Rainbow Stage and, I did make that decision essentially to whatever came my way. I would try, I was open to Explor. Whatever direction this could go, because I didn't know where it was, how it was gonna unfold.
I thought I'd be an actor. I thought I'd just be a folk singer. but then it just kept picking me up and dragging me here and plopping me down and, I would look at it and say, oh, let's try that. Let's try that, let's try that. and, and it all, it all seemed to turn up pretty.
[00:08:30] Rosalyn: what are some lessons then that you've picked up in these years in your career?
Or are there, pieces of advice that you would give to folks, people, creative people Help. you kind of keep going.
[00:08:41] Fred: I'll have young people approach me and. What kind of e exactly this question. What kind of advice do you have? I really want to become a children's entertainer. I wanna do this and the first thing I I say is why? What is your motivation? Why do you want to?
Entertain kids. Well because they're so much fun. And because I can jump up on that. I can, you know, I I can make, sound, I can make color, and often they will go to a very superficial direction. , in what their ability might be. And I say, what is your philosophy?
working with children is not just a matter of getting up on stage and making a funny face and singing a, a silly song. That's one small percentage of what the big picture is. never underestimate your ability to make a difference in the life of a child.
I learned that from Susie, from my sister. I learned that from working with special needs children along the way, and seeing how music can make a difference if you approach it from that angle. It's not a throwaway. why do you wanna do it?
That's the biggest thing. If you're expecting to make a lot of money, forget it. the chances of that happening are small. I got very lucky that I was able to do as many things as I could in my life. Just the timing was right and so often that's part of the deal. The timing has to be right.
I mean, a asking me to give advice is tricky for me because of where I was and how things evolved for me. It is all based on your personal truth, on the philosophy, on honesty, on sharing something that is of true value in your mind, what would you like someone?
hopefully not necessarily, but hopefully to take away from anything that you present. Is it a chord progression that, brings out an emotion? Is it a certain lyric that really does capture what you're looking to present? It's all about that. It all comes down to something really personal very deep and.
Good luck. And good luck,
[00:10:46] Rosalyn: that's beautiful Fred I think that is beautiful a piece of advice cuz you have had this, such a beautiful message. Through your music and really true and honest and the documentary that was made about you, it's called Take Good Care of each Other, What a beautiful phrase to have sum up, someone's career, that's a pretty, pretty amazing thing. How did you feel seeing, that piece of work there?
I think there's two, right? There's, or a shorter version and a longer.
[00:11:12] Fred: Yeah, Aaron Fresco, a Winnipeg videographer he followed me for, many gigs over a seven, eight year period. and we put together a short piece, but, half an hour and he felt that there was enough material, with some other interviews, et cetera to go into a full.
Doc it's always weird, looking at myself, be because I feel removed from it, you know? and as you gave the introduction at the beginning. Oh, is that, me? Is that, I don't feel that I'm a very egotistical. Person, I I try to be as, as open and caring and loving as I possibly can be.
Without being, that egotistical side. I mean, I do have an ego and that has been ruffled, occasionally along the way. . But I enjoyed the video. I enjoyed the videography. I liked seeing old friends and, people who were open to talking about how they felt about my work and who I am and what I do.
But it's just, does it mean anything? Does it really ultimately mean.
[00:12:14] Rosalyn: Well, I'm sure it means a lot to a lot of people, that are fans of, your work and maybe new fans along the way. But it's really interesting I remember seeing you perform. We hadn't seen each other in a little while, and I saw you play at Hillside Festival.
[00:12:29] Fred: Oh yeah. Yeah.
[00:12:30] Rosalyn: The not in the children's tent, on the, big stage there.
And, There were thousands of people, adults who were, sitting crisscross applesauce and just having the actual time of their lives shouting and, and hollering and singing along and,
there was such an immense joy to get to listen to your music and like, it was an interesting phenomenon to witness and say like, oh, this is like, when you make that connection to music so young. It's really neat that you keep it in there, and so to see, like, see these adults have exactly as much joy as the kids get. , like the same amount, if not more. Because this is something that they've carried with them, you know, your songs and your music, they've carried with them for now 40 years
[00:13:16] Fred: yeah. getting into that part the process cuz this whole thing is a process that's carried me along, carried us along for this time going into. Universities, after Fred Penn's place was pulled off the air in the late nineties and there were no reruns happening. And I thought, well, I, that was a good run, 13 years. Thousand shows almost. But what am I gonna do now? few gigs still happening.
I'll play, play festivals along the way. But it felt like things were gonna slow down at that point. And then Mr. Dressup and I had a connection and I saw that he was, Doing lunchtime at universities, going in and, just talking about his career and the rest of it.
And I thought, oh, of course. That's where that generation has gone now. Those kids who connected over all that time from the early, mid eighties are now going to university. So I I talked to my agents at pk. I said, when you're doing the university conference, offer my name.
Possibility, not for a lunch hour, but for the bar, for the nighttime gigs. And at first they said, really? Is that are you sure about that? I said, yeah, absolutely. And so they they went to the conference and had my name up and all of a sudden it was, oh, Could this work?
the first one of those I did was at ubc, at the pit pub for about 300. This bar was jammed. There was not standing room. and I was, I did it solo and I got up and did essentially the majority of the material that I would normally. Plus I supplemented with some Joni Mitchell and Gordon Lightfoot and, Kat Stevens stuff that I had done in my earlier days.
And the audience instantly became five years old. All of them, professors as well. it was the most incredible feeling to know that, a, as you're saying that,
connection that they had as children carried through and really had a solid point. I think part of it too, and then this is the, in my humorous perspective perhaps is personality is formed in the first five, six years of. . That's when you're, when really all the pieces of your awareness come together.
And so if I was with the kids for that critical time, those five years, then in some way I've affected their d n a. So when I come in person it doesn't just hit their emotions. And on the surface it does go into a very core of their being. And when that happens I just I'm in, absolute heaven.
I'm delighted to know that's happening. again I, couldn't expect that necessarily, but when it happens, it just takes me over the.
[00:15:54] Rosalyn: your fans have been known to be called Fred Heads, So, it's not just a clever name, like you're in their heads. , you're in there
[00:16:02] Fred: Oh sure. Yeah, of course.
[00:16:04] Rosalyn: The Los Angeles parent called you, the Canadian Minister of Positivity,
And the focus of, your. 2017 album here, the music was a lot about positive, positive messaging and as much of your music is.
But since that was released in 2017, I feel like things have, become a bit more trying. We went through, some pretty, tough times for kind of like collectively around the globe as humanity and artists had lost their livelihood and. how did you get through those times? And, do you have a little bit of that positivity to share for folks who might be still recovering through that?
[00:16:37] Fred: Yeah, if we will ever recover from that. It was pretty intense. It is, pretty intense.
you've gotta learn to trust yourself. You've gotta learn to trust that you can survive this career is nothing if, if you don't believe in who you are and what you're doing
I was in the midst of or towards the end of my 40th anniversary, cat came back tour and we'd done eastern dates and we got as far. The last date was Calgary and then we headed up to, to Edmonton and I was so excited about the Edmonton gig cuz I've played there a lot. We had a beautiful, 1500 seats sold at the Wind Spear Theater, which is one of the most beautiful theaters in the country. and this show had a full video component. So, so the video was set up the monitors were there, the sound was there, everything was, as perfect as it could possibly have been, except there was not gonna be an audience.
About two hours or so before Showtime the Alberta Health Authority came in and said,
we gotta shut it.
I was with Paul O'Neill and and a road manager, a cousin of mine, David Hogue.
we. Drove back to Calgary where our initial flight was from. We scrambled, got new flights. I now had a home here on the island. So I flew back here and they went back to Winnipeg and suddenly two years later, we're still trying to figure out what's going on for me it was it was. but because I've trusted myself I thought, well, here we are. There's. huge global transition that's happening. How do I approach it? Well continue to practice. I play guitar almost every day. I'm working on new material. I may at some point have another album in me, who knows? But the positive thing for me was uh, Ray Ellen is my wife.
We spent a lot of time getting to, to really know each other, and I had never in my life with any relationship that I'd had been able to spend that time with another human being. And that can be ultimately one of the most challenging things you will ever learn to do. So I'm hoping that people did spend time to, to get to know their spouse, their partner.
and themselves a little bit better along the way. since my divorce, I've been into therapy, so I do, therapy. Every couple of weeks I'll talk to my therapist about how I'm feeling, things I'm thinking. And that's a really positive thing to do if you're going through a tough time, don't just try and rationalize it out to yourself, but get. and I think now perhaps more than ever we do need someone, in this world to, who can look at our situation and say, yeah, there, there is a way to approach this that is positive and that can carry you through.
[00:19:20] Rosalyn: Oh. that's inspiring to hear that journey and to hear that you were open to getting help and seeking that and to entering into the process of therapy and kept it up and saw the value in in continuing to ask for help, which I think can be hard for some people.
[00:19:34] Fred: Yeah. and that very much came from my wife as well. I've been divorce about 11, 12 years now. And Ray and I have been married for five years and a bit. and therapy was a really important part of Her life trip. We both come from our families of origin.
Both our fathers were alcoholic. So we had that to share in an odd sort of way. And the therapeutic thing is it just gives you a little different perspective. but one of the lessons that I learned from that very early in, in the therapeutic process, which they recommend for, if you're going through a divorce or separation, talk to somebody.
It's important. One of the things was you did the best you could with what you had
So that you don't feel guilty and resent. Of having lost a relationship. And the other one is learning the difference between codependence and interdependence,
Where codependent the way it was described is if your partner goes under in, into the rabbit hole, freaks out about something has, has gone wherever they.
the co-dependent would go in there too and say, I can save you, I can help you. I can fix it. I'm gonna do this. You know that diving in where you're both, wallowing in that mere, the interdependent is, oh, I see you've gone into the rabbit hole. If there's anything I can do, let me know. I'll be here when you come.
you know, Which is two totally different approaches and it's so, so very important. , But the therapy has been really important and valuable to.
[00:21:06] Rosalyn: Speaking of relationships, you've carried with you to like a lot of professional and like friendship, relationships throughout your career as well. We mentioned Ken Whiteley. There's your band mates that you've played with. For a long time.
And those folks like Al Simmons who are, still performing out there and all sorts of folks that, I'm sure you've been able to keep in touch with to varying degrees, . What does that mean to to be able to keep some of those, relationships going and how do you do that,
[00:21:33] Fred: you have to make a, commitment to do that. I'll call Al every, every so often. We'll chat about life and things. I called Gordy Oslan, who was my drummer for a long time. Uh, any of these friends I did have a deep connection with.
I'm, excited about reconnecting or having a conversation with them and seeing where they are, how they're approaching life, as I move into I'm 76, can't believe it. I look at the perspectives that I have in life and discussing that with other friends who are going.
The change , and it's it's as much a change for men as it is for women, dare I say
but there is a male menopause and learning to understand what that is and be becoming a better person through that understanding. I've always just worked really hard at being a good human, first of all, and a good man. I consider myself a gentle man, and I want that if anything comes through in my, approach to people is that I want to be supportive of others. we're all in this together, I am my brother's keeper. I am my sister's keeper.
So the more I can do to maintain those connections along the. there's value to it. It's important for my spirit. For their spirit.
[00:22:44] Rosalyn: I think it's a testament to living up to that, that you still have those people in. your life. That's incredible.
[00:22:50] Fred: What I find in interesting now just sort of just springing off that little bit, is the people who grew up with me, who are now moving into, their own world is I'm flying. As high as I can imagine watching what's happening with them. I did a show called The Route 90 Sessions out of mid can studios on Route 90.
Tanner Glinsky the son of a, of a woman who helped me with some of my early albums and bringing kids to sing on the albums, Chris Glinsky, but her son is a video producer. And, he had this idea of doing some interviews with, Winnipeg performers.
So I, spoke with Brothers Landreth, with Bagonia, with Al Simmons, with JP Ho. William Prince and with Sierra No.
those six incredible talents. and, and we had very intense open conversations. And this was like over a year ago now and where they have gone Bagonia is just burning this trail.
That's freak me out just a little bit cuz she knows really where she's going. And for the Landreth brothers to, to get the ju. Just couple of days ago, oh golly I'm flying. And where they're all going just thrills me to no end. So those kind of connections, not just my, with my age wise contemporaries, but with.
The kids who grew up with me who are moved into that, those are my contemporaries as well. and keeping contact with them. And, sending a little message to William Prince saying, congratulations on opening for Willie Nelson for this farm aid thing that he's doing or performing the grand ole op.
I feel like, oh, I, I now have one degree of separation from the Grand Ole Opry and that's William Prince. So it's all of that just is so very exciting to see where, how that's evolving.
[00:24:41] Rosalyn: And you had such an incredible crew of, folks that performed with you on hear the music, just cracker jack lineup of, you know, artists from good Loves and Alex Cuba and all,
[00:24:51] Fred: that was really the excitement of that album was to have those young performers, who were more than delighted to be on my album, you included. Thank you for that. But that idea had it sort of, a few years before I'd started working on some stuff with Hosley Workman and I didn't really have the material to go farther with, with that project.
But then with Jeff Kovic and the folks at Linus entertainment we put it together and with Ken Whiteley. Dear Ken, who's produced many of my albums along the way, we started putting it together and seeing. The songs would fit with some of these players. Like, you know, Ron Sexsmith sang on two of the songs and that was the right kind of connection.
there were another dozen artists who would've loved to have been part of it, but we didn't have the material and the time. So I'm thinking that this next album, If I can do it before I'm 80 would be maybe a similar thing. Have some beautiful musical connections with some of those folks.
But but those links are invaluable to me. And I'm very proud that people still feel that they wanna connect with.
[00:25:54] Rosalyn: So what is next? So you're talking about a possible future album, which will all eagerly anticipating. Are you performing live? Have you gone back to playing live?
[00:26:04] Fred: Bit bits and pieces. Yeah I've done a few things on the island. I played candle today last year in Courtney in October playing in Sydney close to Victoria. I'm off to, Edmonton next week playing in spruce Grove doing the Cat. Came back, show there playing in Saskatoon at Jazz Fest in July, back to Winnipeg for Kids Fest.
So there's every month between now and and the end of the year, there's one or two gigs. I'll be doing the burden comings with my Christmas show.
This.
[00:26:34] Rosalyn: be.
[00:26:34] Fred: The middle of December. it's pulled back substantially from the way it was even five years ago. but I'm not stopping, I, until I have. , for whatever reason, you know, I'm, I'm getting the arthritis thing happening in my hands. But it's, it's manageable.
I keep the exercise going there. I'm still able to On, on a daily basis. So, so I will do what I can for as long as I can.
That's all.
[00:27:00] Rosalyn: it's inspiring to hear that you're still. practice and that you keep up like a daily of.
[00:27:05] Fred: there's another, another message to people who are into this put that into your daily regimen, you know, whatever length it is. everybody's got their little progressions, their little exercises that they do, a certain song that it's the go-to go there and Keep thinking about a different way to approach it. Listen to other musicians and try to figure out what they're doing. Perhaps that might expand your palette. So I'm I, I've been getting into more and more jazz chords along the way and trying to implement that into my work.
I like the complexity of chords and you can't copyright a chord progress. You can copyright melody, you can copyright lyrics but chord progression's not so, uh, so don't, so, so don't be afraid to use those for your own purpose.
[00:27:50] Rosalyn: Yeah, that was say thank goodness cuz you have some great chord progressions in, in your arsenal there.
[00:27:56] Fred: Yeah. Thank you.
[00:27:57] Rosalyn: Fred, where can people find you on online if they wanna to follow along with your adventures?
[00:28:03] Fred: I do have a website, fred penner.com, that's where you'd find tour information, which I'll be updating shortly. I have some merch and t-shirts, CDs, books that are available through there, through the store. But that's the main path. And and the email world. I'm always open to direct connections, and I answer my own
[00:28:21] Rosalyn: Fred, it's been such a pleasure to chat with you. We just really love you and thank you so much for spending your time with us today.
[00:28:29] Fred: It's truly my pleasure. I love you and your work and where things are unfolding in your path, and that's that's really exciting for me to watch where you're going and having seen, seen you as a young fiddler, et cetera, et cetera. But I appreciate being on this program and sharing some thoughts and feelings.
I hope it made some sense along the way. And we can do this again anytime you'd like.
[00:28:51] Rosalyn: we we would love that. Thank you so much, Fred.
[00:28:54] Fred: Thank you.