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Life by Design is a podcast that shares the experiences and tools to help couples align their wealth goals and reclaim their time, enabling them to experience freedom, abundance, and a life by design.
Jessilyn Persson: [00:00:09] Welcome to the Life by Design podcast with your hosts, Jessilyn and Brian Persson. We work with professional couples to help resolve conflict and elevate communication within their relationship.
Brian Persson: [00:00:18] We are the creators of the Discover Define Design Framework, which supports you in resolving conflict and communicating better.
Jessilyn Persson: [00:00:26] This week our topic is on agreements. This is part one of two series. So, agreements. Brian, what are agreements?
Brian Persson: [00:00:35] Yeah, agreements are a negotiated course of action. In our case, we're talking about relationships. So it is negotiated between a partner and a spouse. And to give you a quick example of like an agreement that we've created, it is with driving. With driving, it has to do with you driving in the city because you have motion sickness if I drive, um, not because I'm a crazy driver, but because you just react and I drive on the highways for all the long vacations and trips that we go on. That's a typical agreement that we've come into within our relationship.
Jessilyn Persson: [00:01:14] Yeah. One of many agreements. So in terms of agreements, I mean, there should definitely be an agreement for any major decisions you and your partner are having, right? Like buying a house or a car. Where are you going to go on vacation, if you plan on changing jobs or starting a company, starting a family is a huge discussion you should have. Is that, would you agree with that?
Brian Persson: [00:01:34] Yeah. Agreements are huge. They literally come into every part of your life everywhere you can imagine, you will find agreements. And the better that you can get at discovering those agreements, defining what they are, and then as our structure goes, Discover Define and Design, and design the new agreement, the better your relationship will get. Because once you have an agreement in place, there's no more unknowns. So whether it's a big decision or a little decision, agreements will always come to your rescue and save your relationship from any kind of conflict you might have.
Jessilyn Persson: [00:02:15] Yeah, I definitely agree with that. And I know, of course, in our earlier years, we didn't always have what we'd call a formal agreement, but we did have some agreements. So for example, when we decided to buy our family home, I mean, we live in Alberta, which can be very cold and I don't like the cold, but I knew when we discussed that because your family is close, we want to stay close here, plus we both had really good jobs. So what I agreed to or made you agree to, I should say, is that I wanted a fireplace and a heated garage with our new home.
Brian Persson: [00:02:48] Yeah. You did not want to get into any kind of cold car and and have to start it up. You didn't even want me to start up your car and...
Jessilyn Persson: [00:02:56] No.
Brian Persson: [00:02:56] And have it warmed up.
Jessilyn Persson: [00:02:57] I wanted a guaranteed warm car when I got in it. And then as we were looking at houses, this was an agreement we put up front, and I didn't know until we were looking at them. And there's a few houses I really liked. And as soon as we looked at the backyard, there was like no trees or maybe it was a new under construction and you're like, nope, I want trees for privacy. And now, I mean, obviously the house we bought had that. And I have a huge appreciation for what trees bring in terms of privacy. I mean, back then I would have just went with a house I loved, whether it had trees or not, but that was an agreement that kind of rolled in as we looked at houses. It wasn't up front. I mean, since we've come up with Discover Define Design, I think now knowing what we know, we would go forward with any decision and do, like we say, Discover Define and Design it all up front so we know what we're looking for on the onset.
Brian Persson: [00:03:49] Right. And really good point there or a really good insight to that is a lot of relationships, and ours was in the past very rigid on the agreements. So once you made an agreement, it was almost like it was set in stone and it couldn't change. For the house, we came up with an initial set of parameters for what the agreement was on what we were looking for in a house, but as you said, you know, new information came into the system and the agreement had to change. I found with us, and I find with other relationships that we observe, there's like a rigidness to an agreement. So we had to get a lot better at creating agreements that had some flexibility.
Jessilyn Persson: [00:04:37] Absolutely. So why do we need agreements?
Brian Persson: [00:04:41] Well, without agreements you really got nothing to go on. Think about anything that you do without an agreement. Like imagine if every time you got into the car and you were annoyed that you had to drive because you were motion sick, right? Like there was no agreement around who was supposed to drive and why you drove in the city and I drove in the highway. You would make assumptions on that particular action all the time.
Jessilyn Persson: [00:05:09] I think we make assumptions and fall into kind of default agreements as we grow as a couple, as anyone grows as a couple. Like, so we have agreements obviously for major decisions, but we also have agreements for who is responsible for what decisions.
Brian Persson: [00:05:25] Yeah. Household things that you do around the house, business things, paying the bills, who manages what money. We really have an agreement for all of that.
Jessilyn Persson: [00:05:38] Yeah, we do, like so I'm responsible for the kids school and extracurricular activities in terms of like booking it, making sure they have all the equipment they need. But you actually are the one who drives them to their events. And that's our agreement when it comes to, say, the kids. And then when it comes to, say, investments, we discuss what we want to invest in. But in the end, you're the one who deals with the money. You're the one who makes the investments. And that, again, was an agreement that we came to together.
Brian Persson: [00:06:05] Mhm. Yeah. And like I said those agreements changed a lot. They needed to be flexible over time. And it wasn't always sort of discussed and actually put out there into the world that one of us should be doing a particular thing like cooking. You, you early on in our relationship, got really frustrated with cooking because you were pickier. And I did not see any point in trying to cook for you because you didn't like most of what I cooked. And I'm not a bad cook. But what happened was the the agreement had to form out of some frustration. Unfortunately. And if you can actually discuss those agreements up front, as soon as you see some change in what is going on inside of your relationship, you will be much more successful in your relationship because you'll detect the change in the agreement or detect the lack of agreement, i.e. the assumptions going on in your relationship, and you'll find that you can create an agreement for those unknowns and for those uncertainties, and make sure that your relationship succeeds better.
Jessilyn Persson: [00:07:22] Absolutely. And I mean, we have agreements on almost anything you can think of house chore wise, right? So I generally do the laundry. You do a lot of the outside work. But it has evolved as we grow, like I used to do most of the cleaning in the house and then as I, you know, got pregnant, I did a lot less just in terms of chemicals. And also at some point I got bigger in the belly. It was getting harder for me to even bend over to get my shoes. So you took over a lot of the cleaning and then I got, after I went back to work, got really busy with my career, started working more, and I wanted to get a house cleaner. And you weren't in favor of that. And so you agreed to take on more of the cleaning. But then you got busier and that cleaning became less. And so we eventually, I kind of twisted your arm to let me try us getting a house cleaner just in once to try and see what it's like. And over time we built up to having her in. But at first it was once every three weeks. And then finally I was able to convince you to go every two weeks. But again, that evolved as our life changed and we had more kids to take care of, careers, taking on businesses. So we had to be flexible in terms of being, okay, I might be doing this now, but it might not be a forever thing, but also flexible in appreciating what the other had on their plate to accept maybe what they're proposing.
Brian Persson: [00:08:45] Yeah, I think that's a really good example of agreements and how we kind of did it wrong at the beginning and right later on. So at the beginning, the cleaning agreement was pretty well by default. Like we didn't really discuss or decide who should clean. It was, it was reactionary. So you just, you cleaned first. You wanted the house, not that I'm dirty again, but...
Jessilyn Persson: [00:09:15] But I like it sparkling.
Brian Persson: [00:09:16] You wanted the house cleaner than before I started to, like, lose it on and want to clean the house. And then you got pregnant and by default, I just started taking over.
Jessilyn Persson: [00:09:27] Yeah.
Brian Persson: [00:09:28] And then, as you said, you got busy with your career. And by default I started to take on more of the cleaning there as well. Then when I got busy, I started to realize that, okay, there's more here than I can deal with. And by default we came back together and decided to get a cleaner. Right? But a lot of that was just reactionary. And so nowadays, what did we do? We actually came up, we discussed all the parameters around why we need a cleaner. And why do we clean, why do we have a cleaner now? Because we know that paying that cleaner is more important than doing it ourselves and taking that energy and time away from our business. But it was very intentional. The last, like, why we have a cleaner now as compared to the assumptions and defaults that we kind of made in the past.
Jessilyn Persson: [00:10:26] Yeah, we had to learn from our mistakes. So not having a cleaner and neither of us having the time to clean, we realized that as the house got messier, we got, we felt a little more weighed down, like neither of us liked a messy house, and it started to impact how we would work and how much work we'd get done. And so we realized, okay, clean house leads to us to a clean mind to be able to be more creative and productive. And so that just went hand in hand with where we were going with our careers.
Brian Persson: [00:10:53] Yeah, yeah. And and it became very, through discussion, it became very apparent why we needed to make a different agreement. And instead we made that different agreement intentionally as compared to default.
Jessilyn Persson: [00:11:08] Yeah. So how do agreements work exactly?
Brian Persson: [00:11:12] How do agreements work, how they should work and how they do work is often two different things. And that's why we created some of the content that we've created for professional couples, because the agreements more often than not are created by default and not really in any kind of intention behind them.
Jessilyn Persson: [00:11:30] Right.
Brian Persson: [00:11:30] But how they do work for us is that we have our Discover Define Design framework, which works fantastic for exploring what you need to make an agreement around. And the Design part of our framework is actually where the agreement comes into place, and that's really where the agreement works. And that has to do with the structures of the agreement. So outcomes, timing, what happens if the agreement falls apart or fails, all those kind of things around what you've agreed on.
Jessilyn Persson: [00:12:05] Right. So we have an agreement. I mean obviously we're huge in communication. So we have an agreement on when and how to communicate. And I know we've discussed this in previous episodes where we have it actually scheduled in our calendar for different conversations, like we do one for family intention setting, one to discuss our finances, one to discuss our relationship, one to discuss our business, and this is on a weekly basis. Sometimes, you know, we miss one or we have to reschedule, but we always come back to it because we know that it helps set the precedence for us as a couple, but also the future that we're trying to work into.
Brian Persson: [00:12:42] Yeah, and that agreement to have that communication happen on a regular basis is super, super important for both your relationship but also the agreements, because as we were talking about with the house, there were certain changes that had to go on when we were looking to buy a house and if we had had a regular set of communications happening while we were buying that house, we probably would have made some decisions quite a bit earlier, probably on the order of number of months earlier. Because what what ended up happening was the house we were looking for was in a particular area and very sought after area. Could not find that house. Sat on it, struggled here, struggled there to find that house. And we really had a reactionary discussion after the fact and ended up agreeing to come out to our current neighborhood. So having that regular tick of a discussion where you're got it going on all the time and you have that conversation happening, brings the whole relationship and all the agreements forward along with it.
Jessilyn Persson: [00:13:57] Right. And I mean, we have agreements in terms of communication also, for example, not to interrupt the other, right, with you being right in the the heart of the home for your office, it's easy to interrupt you. And so especially during the workday, it's like, okay, don't interrupt me unless it's scheduled or urgent, of course, there's always some things that might come up, but that took me a while. Months, if I'm being honest, to really wrap my head around because, I mean, easy for me. I'm in my office, I close my door. People don't really interrupt. But when I go upstairs to the kitchen to grab lunch or go upstairs to just refill my glass of water...
Brian Persson: [00:14:38] I'm not far away...
Jessilyn Persson: [00:14:38] I'd be like, hey, so blah blah, blah. And you're just like, oh, I'm in the middle of... And it got frustrating for you and then a little bit for me because I'd be like, well, why can't you talk? Right? But it was appreciating your space and mine and being respectful of that. And that was an agreement that we just put into place. And so now I'm like, okay, if we need to discuss something business-wise that isn't, say, on our weekly agenda, it's like, okay, for podcasts, for example, I just put it in the calendar and I know that's when we'll talk about podcasts or whatever it is we're working on for that day or week.
Brian Persson: [00:15:09] That's a massive agreement that we have between us, is how we manage our calendar. The rule that we have, or the agreement that we have, is that if it doesn't exist in the calendar, it doesn't exist at all.
Jessilyn Persson: [00:15:23] Yeah.
Brian Persson: [00:15:24] So it, and it's up to the other person, the person who forgot to book the thing or whatever it might look, whatever the scheduling error might look like, it's up to that person who made the error to fix the error and do whatever they need to do. But that's also an important part of agreements, is you gotta be flexible in your agreements. And so the way we work with agreements is that they don't have a consequence per se. Like you suck, you didn't schedule this, like you know, this is your fault. No, it's not a consequence, it's more just a revision. Like the agreement that we made was obviously not set out correctly enough that that error happened in the first place. So instead of having a consequence for breaking the agreement, we have a revision of the agreement.
Jessilyn Persson: [00:16:20] Right. Like you said, so it's the party who didn't put the thing or whatever it is in the calendar, it's their responsibility now to go change whatever that might have been. Now, of course, that's not hard and fast. That's not rooted in stone. I mean, there's been times where I've completely forgot to put something in the calendar and you've booked something in, and I knew mine was, like it'd take me months to rebook it. It could've been like, maybe a doctor's appointment or whatever it is. So then we discuss it. Again, we come back to the communication and be like, hey, I should have booked this in, I forgot, is yours moveable? And if, of course, if one of ours is movable, we move it. It's not like no, go fix it yourself. We're together as partners to say, let's make this work for both of us.
Brian Persson: [00:17:06] Yeah, you got to be, you got to be flexible within those situations. But say for example, it happens over and over again. I know us in the past, and other relationships that we see, it becomes a rooted problem and, and it becomes a source of tension and argument. And the reason is because us, in the past, they just, we weren't flexible enough to realize that it wasn't the actions we were taking, it was that the agreement was somehow not structured properly. So for example, if you or I incorrectly booked something a number of times in a row, again, instead of the consequence, we sit down and say, okay, obviously something is not working here in how we're trying to schedule our days or weeks. What is it? How can we change the agreement and how can we go forward with with a newer, better, more workable agreement? Rather than just getting bitter, rather than just like throwing consequences at the other partner.
Jessilyn Persson: [00:18:11] Yeah. The agreement's got to work for both, right? Like you said. And that's a great example. If one partner is continuing to fail the agreement, that's obviously not working for both of you. Right? And so you need to sit down and maybe like you said, revise that agreement. Or maybe it's not that agreement. You know what I mean? Maybe there's something deeper in there that needs to be uncovered for that agreement to work. And whether that's maybe one not taking responsibility or maybe one not understanding what that means to the other. Like, you may have to go deeper and it may not be the agreement itself that's not workable. It might be something around the situation.
Brian Persson: [00:18:50] Yeah. And from our experience, I would, I think a lot of the time in the past, we would throw it, throw the agreement out the door.
Jessilyn Persson: [00:18:57] Yeah.
Brian Persson: [00:18:57] And that's the wrong thing to do in most situations. You, we, and I'm advising everybody out there to revise your agreements first before you throw them away and make a conscious effort to continually revise your agreements and not keep them set in stone so that you kind of become an inflexible tree that's going to eventually snap in the wind. Right?
Jessilyn Persson: [00:19:22] Yeah, yeah. We got to be flexible in everything. I mean, it's an incredible feeling when you can get to a space where, yes, you know what's coming in terms of your calendar and what's happening in the day. But if something comes up, if you can accept that as it comes, whether it's good or not, you can move so much more freely in your day and in your week if something changes as opposed to, and I know I speak firsthand at being very rigid where I was very black and white. Nope, this is exactly what we're doing, it cannot change, to now being like, okay, this is changing. This is why. Let's see how we make it work.
Brian Persson: [00:20:05] Yeah. And have that discussion. Because here's the thing I think that happens in relationships, I know I was probably the guilty one for this in the past, is that I would just change the agreement and it would be sort of undiscussed and unannounced and it would be like, well, what do you mean, like that, it's the most logical way to to go about this particular thing. Why would we not change this? But like if I do that, then the other party, especially in a relationship where you have a partner, the other party isn't actually part of the agreement because you've made the one decision that changes that agreement. So whether it makes sense or not, and maybe it's truly the right course of action, you got to have that discussion so that the agreement is changed, sort of air quotes, in writing. If it's not discussed, then you can basically consider it to be not in writing.
Jessilyn Persson: [00:21:00] I would consider it to not be an agreement.
Brian Persson: [00:21:02] Not an agreement at all.
Jessilyn Persson: [00:21:03] Yeah. And no, I mean, I'm glad you brought that up because you're right. I remember there's a few times where you changed, made a decision to change something, and didn't communicate it, as you said. And then I think it wasn't like a day thing, like it would be like maybe a month or two later, I'm kind of reaching out and we're discussing what our agreement was, and you're like, oh, well, no, this is what I decided and this is why, blah blah blah. And I'm sitting there kind of like awestruck. Like what? This, when, I didn't know about this. Oh, and you're like, oh yeah yeah. And I'm like, well no no no no no no. No no no. You can't change your mind and not tell me. Right? And so then we talk it out and we'd come to a new agreement. But yeah it's shocking, I can speak from experience, when you have a partner change something and you don't know until a month or two later because you've got this expectation now of this is what's happening, and then it doesn't happen. And you're like, how did it not happen? And then when you find out your partner decided a different path and you're going, that would have been good to know maybe two months ago, right? Because your partner likely makes decisions based on that as well. And so now if I'm trending down a path that we're not going, I'm feeling bad because I just wasted my time. And then it creates like resentment and anger again. And just everything we want to avoid is the conflict side if we can. And there's easy ways to do it if you just communicate.
Brian Persson: [00:22:21] Yeah. Which goes back to communicating on a regular basis, like having those intentional meetings where you sit down and you say, what about the finances? What about the kids? You know what, and you cover all the topics that are important to you so that your partner doesn't even have a chance to change the agreement without you being aware of the change. And then you and your partner can come on board and say, hey, you know what? This agreement needs a revision. Let's change it so that this is the way that it's going to go now.
Jessilyn Persson: [00:22:54] Right. And there's also, of course, reviewing agreements, whether that's yearly or a couple years later, because a lot of times what you may have agreed to became the default. So for example, you driving the kids around everywhere, it was it was the agreement because I was working downtown, I had quite a commute. My hours didn't line up like yours would to pick up the kids. But then as we both became working from home, you still did it. And we didn't really review it to be like, well, wait a minute, I have capacity, I have a different, right? And so we definitely need to review our agreements to make sure it is still working for both partners.
Brian Persson: [00:23:33] Yeah, really good point. An agreement can very, quicker than you think, turn into like a default agreement which is really not workable in the relationship anymore. And again, back to the whole scheduling your conversations that can prevent it, if you can have your conversation every week or every or bi-weekly, whatever your schedule looks like, you can avoid those agreements going into default where they're really not workable anymore but you haven't discussed the agreement, and so you just keep going down that same path with that same agreement. And what happens after that conflict tension, a lot of problems in the relationship because there's a lot of stuff undiscussed within that agreement.
Jessilyn Persson: [00:24:21] Absolutely. So I'm going to wrap this up here and talk about the three takeaways. One, have an agreement for major decisions. All major decisions. Two, have an agreement for who is responsible for what decisions. And three, have an agreement on when and how to communicate.
Brian Persson: [00:24:39] So agreements are a huge, huge topic. I think like a majority of your relationship can be solved by just having agreements. So we're going to have another episode, we're going to have an entire another episode, our next episode is actually going to be a continuation of this agreements talk.
Jessilyn Persson: [00:24:58] Absolutely. Agreements part two. And this is where we're going to start to cover things like what are default agreements and what happens when you break an agreement, and should you review agreements on a recurring basis and why?
Brian Persson: [00:25:10] We release podcasts every two weeks, so be sure to hit the subscribe button on your favorite podcast app to journey with us and create your life by design.
Jessilyn Persson: [00:25:20] Thanks for listening to the Life by Design podcast with your host, Jessilyn and Brian Persson.