036 | Bridging liquid categories: beverage development to recruit new consumers | Part 2/2 with Sebastian Barnick from Pleasant Land Distillery (Kent, UK)

Show Notes

Episode Deep-Dive Analysis Available at maffeodrinks.com 

In Episode 036, I continued my conversation with Sebastian Barnick in Episode 035. Feel free to listen to that, as well.

Starting life in the Royal Navy, he became a certified distiller and WSET educator with a wealth of experience in wines and luxury spirits. He is an NPD professional and runs a sustainable contract distillery in the UK. I hope you will enjoy our chat. I hope you will enjoy our chat.

Time Stamps

(0:17); Authenticity in Brands

(11:23); Modern and Traditional Target Occasions

(17:17); Hometown Authenticity

(22:28); Bridging Categories

(26:43); Categories from a Distiller's perspective

(33:55); Early Adopters

(38:28); Best Part of being a Distiller

About the Host: Chris Maffeo

About the Guest: Sebastian Barnick

Interested in Group Subscriptions, Keynote Presentations or Advisory? You can get in touch at [e-mail] or find out more at maffeodrinks.com 

Creators and Guests

Host

Chris Maffeo

Drinks Leadership Advisor | Bridging Bottom-Up Reality & Top-Down Expectations

Guest

Sebastian Barnick

Distiller | Pleasant Land Distillery

What is MAFFEO DRINKS Leadership Insights?

The MAFFEO DRINKS Podcast is a leading drinks industry podcast delivering frontline insights for drinks leadership.

For founders, directors, distributor MDs, and hospitality leaders navigating the tension between bottom-up reality and top-down expectations.

20+ years building brands across 30+ markets. Each episode features drinks builders: founders, distributors, commercial directors, sharing how the drinks industry actually works. Not the conference version. Honest conversations.

Insights come from sitting at the bar.

Beyond episodes: advisory for leadership teams, subscription with episode deep dives and principles to navigate your own reality.

Beer, wine, spirits, Low and non-alcoholic.

Bottom-up Insights & Episode Deep Dives at https://maffeodrinks.com

Welcome to the Mafia Drinks
podcast.

I'm your host Chris Mafia in
episode 36.

I continue my conversation with
Sebastian Barnick in episode 35.

Feel free to listen to that as
well.

I hope you will enjoy our chat.
That's to be and to be very

honest, I mean I'm carrying out
my kind of like crusade on on on

the media, on the drinks media
on this when I, whenever I see

it, one of these posts like for,
you know, either it's a buyout

or either it's like we didn't
know what we were doing and then

we sold for a billion.
You know, like, oh, you know, I

hate this kind of titles now
because they are, they are the

drivers of these wrong
conversations, you know, You

know, because then people come
to you, come to me, go around

dreaming about stuff that's not
going to happen.

But you know, like it's fueled
by the narrative of the industry

media, not, not all of them, of
course.

But you know, like many articles
are like that.

I recently read one that just
got me ballistic on, you know,

it's just like I just did it for
chance and then I sold it for

billions.
And it's like what?

You know, like it's just just
like you know people imagine

people sitting at the at the
desk getting a phone call from

Mr. Diaggio.
You know, hey I want to I want

to buy your brand that you don't
know what you're doing with.

You know it's just like it's
insane.

You know what what's what's
happening on on on this and and

and building on this like this.
There's a question I want to ask

you about you know crafting and
authentic brands and you know

handcrafted and all these kind
of terms that are you know used

in the industry now even on big
brands that are you know selling

you know hundreds of thousands
if not million of of of of cases

and what does it mean for you?
What does?

It mean it's it's really hard.
I think you have to place it in

both in the context of the raw
materials, the context of the

people who are going to be
drinking it.

So it it has to have a you know
either a unique.

Taste raw material packaging or
or you know occasion experience

that is you know challenging
what's what's normal in the

category and then also meet the
needs of your consumer to make

it authentic to them.
So I I yeah, I have a couple of

examples of people who are not
what you would typically.

We expect, right?
So we have some guys who wanted

to make some rum.
They love rum.

They are of Indian heritage,
living in the UK, grew up on a

sugar cane farm in India and
also have travelled extensively

around the world working in the
financial services sector.

And they have sourced some very
old rum casks, and they're also

making new rum in the UK from
scratch.

With me including a Co fermented
molasses, sugar cane, high Ester

rum and then some sort of more
relative more neutral stuff in

the sort of Panamanian style to
have like a blank canvas for

blending.
Their target audience is private

bankers and they have a luxury
bottle.

It's an authentic product in
that they've purchased old rums,

they're doing a champagne style
assonblage, which is where you

blend from different.
Different barrels from different

tanks to to come up with your
signature and you're you're

creating something that has
value with then doing further

marrying maturation and then
stepping it down the ABV slowly.

It's going to be bottled at a
relatively high strength and and

you know they've already had
pre-orders from several private

banks for their entertainment
functions at a very high.

Per bottle cost and and that is
their authentic product.

It meets the needs of their
target audience.

It has their their own back
story with it and is a it's it's

fantastic that's that's what
luxury spirits are all about

right.
Their occasion is sipping the

rum with a cigar They're you
know they have every they're

hitting every single luxury you
know marker with it.

They've got the back story.
They've got their sort of, you

know, first generation
immigrants to.

The UK building up their
businesses building up their

lives and create and and selling
to other people who are in that

situation.
And and there's a lot of them in

the UK with disposable income
and that's and they've got

access to that community of
people they've got you know and

and you don't need to sell
10,000 cases of this rum to do

really well because they're
making a very good margin.

The other one that I have is
very left of field for me.

I thought I had a clear idea of
what this looked like.

A lot like the rum.
But this guy came in and he

said, said I want, I want you to
make a a gin for me.

I was like OK, yeah gin.
You sure?

And he said, yeah I want you to
make a gin.

And I and it's going to be 50
lbs for 1/2 liter bottle and I

thought fuck, really.
OK And he's like, Yep, it's

going to be.
And the the bottle is very

unique.
And I was like, all right, OK,

I've seen a lot of unique
bottles.

And he said, yeah, it's going to
be in the shape of a garden

gnome.
You know, like a little, you

know, little dwarf that sits in
your front garden.

OK.
Yeah.

Yeah.
And I was like, OK, how the fuck

are we gonna package this?
Because this looks like a

nightmare.
And he's like, don't worry,

don't worry, they're coming in a
in a shipping container and

they'll be with you in two
weeks.

And I was like, perfect, OK?
And then they arrived. 8000

gnomes just loose.
In the shipping container, like

an army of little who's coming
out.

And I was like, look man, this
is a crazy business and he was

like, yeah, you know, he said,
so do you know there's 3000

garden centers in the UK with an
alcohol license where old ladies

go and buy their pots and and
plants and all that for the

garden.
They all have alcohol licenses

and they do not have a gin that
sells and he is selling out and

they're selling at 50 lbs a
bottle and they are.

It's it's a niche.
It's authentic.

It meets the needs of their
customers.

The gin is is floral.
It's fruity, It's made in the

Garden of England, you know,
which.

So the region I live is called
The Garden of England and you

know it.
It all fits together and it

works really well.
That's it.

That's a very interesting story.
And and and and listening to

you, I want to build on you know
a couple of points that you were

making because to the first
example, you know like you were

you were talking about target
audience.

No.
And you, you know, I'm, I'm not

a big fan of target audience,
but when you said for example

bankers, you know the, the, the
point of connection between

target audience and target
occasion is that kind of like

high end seeping moment that
happens to be made by a lot of

bankers.
Yeah, it can be made by a lot of

other people as well.
I would say from a commercial

perspective, it's not good to be
too restrictive.

I would never discount a
consumer because they don't fit

a profile.
However, when you're targeting a

liquid, I think you you have to
try and get into the mind of

your consumer and the occasion.
And the price points and you

know everything has to to fit
together.

The guy on your one of your
earlier podcasts talked about

The Big Bang.
Everything is connected.

It does all matter.
I completely agree with what

you're you're saying from from a
guy going out there and you know

pounding the streets, knocking
on doors, doing all of that.

There is no target customer.
There's an occasion, there's a

moment, and the ability to
create that moment may be in a

place that wouldn't typically
have it.

But would I go and sell my White
Cliff's Gin to a load of private

bankers in Private Members Club
in London?

Probably not, because my product
does not meet their needs.

It's like people that have
certain taste profile, certain

occasions, certain needs, you
know and then they may happen to

be bankers or whatever now.
But so the second example that

you made that is, is very
interesting because that that is

having a very clear target
customer, you know because some

people target pubs, some people
target hotels and you know and

mini bars and some people target
garden, garden and.

And and you know what?
The weirdest thing is now when

you when you hear the story or
you buy a bottle, everywhere you

go you're going to see these
gnomes.

And you see them on people's
lawns.

And I was thinking, who the fuck
buys these?

You know, I'm, I'm 30s, I'm in
my 30s and I'm like, I I would

never consider buying this.
And then actually, you know, you

see them everywhere and it's and
the gin's good.

You know, it's a good product.
Yeah, absolutely.

And and and you know, and now
whenever I see a gnome, I will

think that it's full of gin.
Absolutely.

It's actually a mozzle.
It should be.

It should be.
You know, he he called me up.

He called me up and said I want
to do a female version now.

I was like, Oh my God, I thought
that gnomes were gender neutral.

You know, I thought we weren't
going to be going it.

But no, he's he's great and and
he's a very much a bottom up

guy.
He's out there building the

brand and that's what it takes.
And it's working.

This is the ultimate, the
ultimate thing.

Like it's it's about really
having clear idea where where to

go and sell it and and try it
out you know and see where it

goes.
Because then you may find very

nice surprises, you know and
then you may not work with

certain people you had in mind
and then you know you may work

with some other.
So you never know that.

The, the OR the marketeers would
call it early adopters.

So you've you've identified your
early adopters and you know them

because there's a part of you in
it and in them as well.

And some brands I think they've
got a clear let's say target.

But then to this example, I
mean, it won't, it won't really

scale to to the top cocktail
bars in central London, I guess,

but you never know, you know,
there may be a a trend of

something like that as a as a
glorifier on a on a bar.

Yeah, absolutely.
This is not a particularly an on

trade brand.
This is an off trade brand.

And I you know he does do some
on trade stuff, you know the the

packaging is prohibitively
expensive to be competitive in

the on trade.
Are you going to get a pouring

deal in a hotel with this?
Probably not.

Extremely unlikely.
Talking about target occasion,

I've got, I've got my my take on
occasion.

Now that's sometimes they are
traditional occasions that and

and then there are modern
occasions.

So the traditional occasions are
what people are using it for in

probably in the homeland you
know of that spirit.

And then modern occasion is like
when it gets, you know

modernized and then it happens
to be in fancy cocktail bars and

so on.
And when we chatted like you

know you you told me you you
have a past in the in the Navy

and you've been to quite a few
countries out there and you've

you managed to sample many, many
different things now many

different spirits like how do
you see that happening?

Like I mean you you mentioned it
early in you know in some of the

brands that have some specific
heritage either the heritage of

the liquid or the heritage of
the person that is doing it, the

building into the story into The
Big Bang.

You know what?
What is your take on?

You know, like the the
importance of having a a clear

occasion that caters to some
people first and then goes

outside of it.
So I I think that you build a a

brand with a very clear audience
and you and that caters to their

needs and does everything it
needs to do for them.

Then you replicate that with
that.

I hate the word tribe.
I hate the word tribe.

But that, you know in marketing
they would call it a tribe and

you you find that.
In your next market and you

replicate that occasion, they
then spread the word to other

people who share similar, you
know thoughts and opinions and

and traditionally that's that's
how it's gone.

You now can't because of how
many brand impressions it takes

for someone to even remember
your brand exists.

You can't do that without going
out there yourself and

reinforcing all of that.
I think the the Aperol one was a

was a great example.
You know they they said it was

all about Venice, all about the
Cipriani bar, all about that

sunset Alhambra occasion and
then that was their powerful

brand home and that's what their
brand was all about.

Even the liquid was sunset
coloured and then they replicate

that around the world.
You go into London they had a

swimming pool filled with a
parole on a rooftop bar type at

sunset and you'd come for a
cocktail at sunset and and it

was all it was all about that
that occasion and replicating it

and then building that with
within the the consciousness of

your consumer.
So now, what drink would you

have as an imperative at sunset?
Going to be an apparel spritz of

course, or a gin tonic.
Or a gin tonic.

These things are very subject to
trends and trends change.

And you know, nowadays you know
you're going to be working on a

brand for 20 years before it
starts to see real success.

So you know if trends change and
you have to, you have to keep

adapting with the time and keep
ensuring that you're you're

talking to the right people and
your product is going to the

people who care.
And what do you think is the

role of the traditional occasion
because I mean like building on

your, your pre examples, the
Wycliffe gin, it's

quintessentially Kent.
So I always push the fact that

you know you need to win in your
home, home turf before venturing

abroad.
So you wouldn't make sense to

have a Wycliffe Gin in London if
then I come to Kent for the

weekend and I don't find it
anywhere, right.

So the Kentish people you know,
like does it have to win with

Kentish people before venturing
elsewhere in your opinion or it

doesn't really matter as long as
the occasion is relevant for the

people you are targeting?
One of those costs no money.

The other one costs a hell of a
lot of money.

So winning with, you know,
making a product that is

relevant to the people that live
here, that is, that meets their

needs as as alcohol consumers,
you know that is doable and you

can do that without spending
thousands and thousands of

pounds.
You can create your product from

the first step to fit their
needs and and to be

representative of of your sense
of place, the taste, the Taste

of Home.
For us, I use local ingredients,

I use seaweeds, I use local
berries, I use all all all this

sort of stuff that that really
works well here.

But then this is not not a great
example because you know, it's

not how typical brands would do
it.

But this is is, or maybe it is
in a way.

I have a friend of mine who's
starting a distribution company

in Kenya and he said, look, I'd
love to take your products.

And I said, look, you know,
honestly, we, we, we're, we're

learning how this is going to be
relevant.

And he said, look, you know,
I'll fly you out here, come out

here, we'll talk to some bars,
we'll talk to bartenders, we'll

start doing the research, we'll
talk to retailers, you know, and

we'll go out there and we'll,
we'll find out.

So we then said, all right, OK,
seafood restaurants.

Perfect.
Because, you know, if you're

going to Nairobi, it's a very
built up city, hundreds and

hundreds of miles away from the
sea.

It's dusty.
It's, it's can be really hot.

How do you create that
refreshing sea spray?

You know it.
It can also be something people

want.
And they yearn for it's an

occasion, you know, that cool
breeze that, you know,

refreshing, slightly saline
taste as well.

People have positive
recollections of the sea.

People have a fondness for it.
And so even if they've never

heard of the White Cliffs of
Dover, what we need to be able

to do is ensure that we can
deliver that experience to them,

which yeah, it's tough.
I think you know ones that you

know what it takes locally then
it makes totally sense to to

venture you know overseas and
and at this at the same time

there's you know it can go in
parallel.

There's no right or wrong.
It's just that what I feel is

that the the latter cannot
cannot exist before the first

thing.
You cannot build overseas if you

are not building it locally, you
know.

If while you are building
locally, you go straight away

over CB just because of an
opportunity because you have

constant contacts, then it makes
totally sense, you know, And

this is where it gets confused
sometimes one you know on my

messages when I write about it
or talk about it now that it's

like it's not black or white.
It depends on the, you know,

many, many Shades of Grey.
It's just that some things are a

minimum condition or minimum
precondition to make other

things happen.
Like, I mean I I used to work

for Peroni for many years and my
personal take is that the big, a

big part of the big success of
Peron in the UK was driven by

the fact that first of all like
Italian restaurants everywhere

with the long history of the
brands.

You know, back then it was
Nostrad, Zurro.

But also it was like the Italian
trade, you know, like the

Italian trade people, you know,
bartenders everywhere, Italians

everywhere.
And they are advocates for the

brands.
You know, I I still remember my

myself when I I I went to a
place called Mezzo in in Soho in

London in 2001.
When I stayed in London for, I

tried to live in London for, you
know, when I was 21 and and I

remembered finding Nasrad Zur on
the menu of this bar and it was

super expensive.
I can't remember now the price,

but it was super expensive for
me at least.

I was very broke at the time.
No, I can't.

I can't remember.
I can't remember what it would

have been.
But I I remember ordering it

with a kind of like a shiver on
my back.

It was a proud moment for me.
Instead of ordering something

else or in fancy international
brand, I ordered that one.

You know, because it touched you
on a personal kind of level,

huh.
This is also the element for

many, you know, like if you say
for example, pisco, you know,

the rise of Peruvian food and
the Nobu and all the fusion

Peruvian Japanese and all this
kind of stuff, the Mexican

foods.
I mean, like, I remember many

years ago, Mexican food was just
like basic, you know, tacos and

you know, basic food.
Now it's one of the best, you

know, finally got recognition of
being one of the best cuisines

out there, you know?
Same stuff with Japanese

whiskey, with Japanese
restaurants and sake.

And so you know like you need to
have a a home turf of trade that

allows you to build on that
particular occasion.

And then not only those people
from that nationality, that of

course will be the majority in
the beginning drinking because

they know how to drink, you know
they know how to enjoy it.

But then like they will be
explained to other people.

And then of course like then it
will it will take off.

But it all starts bottom up.
But you know, some people think

that they can take a random
brand on a random occasion and

then build it into the fanciest
clubs and bars in New York City,

London, Paris and Berlin and
make it make it thrive with very

low budget.
No, Like I said, there's the

cheap way and there's the
expensive way.

But I'm really excited to see
what the future of that is going

to look like as as cultures get
more intermixed, as people get

more intermixed, the world is
increasingly and increasingly

more connected and the movement
of people is, is a trend that's

not going anywhere.
So what is the the the future of

that Like, is it?
Is it fusion?

For example, I went to a sake
brewery in Peckham in in central

London and their Japanese style
products were they they were OK,

they they were good.
You know, on the, on the scale

of the best Japanese products,
you know, they're nowhere near

because it takes, you know, it
does take generations to to

really hone that that product.
They had a Taro sake, which is a

sort of more country style.
Very little Polish on the rice

grain, so lots of tannins.
And then they, they fermented it

in a port wine cask.
And actually that sweetness,

that tannic structure and
everything like that was, was,

you know, for the Western
palette music to our ears.

We love, we love that, you know,
sake has really struggled

outside of the Japanese
restaurant category because it's

not a familiar taste profile to
us.

So to to fuse those traditions,
it just worked really, really

well.
This is very interesting what

you're bringing on because it
brings to another question I

wanted to ask you actually what
which is where do you put

yourself up between the
categories and taste profile?

Because I mean big brands think
in categories, you know, like

this brand managers of rum and
whiskey and Scotch and Irish

whiskey and and you know vodkas
and so on.

I got the spirits and but I
personally, I think that

consumers don't think that way.
You know, they don't think, oh,

I want to have a whiskey
tonight.

They're craving something that
it could be.

I don't know.
It's either like I'm, I'm going

for dinner later or if I'm going
to go for, I don't know, a fish

restaurant like having sushi.
I don't want to have a Negroni

as an imperative.
I think big brands and consumers

think in a similar way.
They think of the present and

they think of what are we doing
now that is working or or what's

the safe option?
And then you know the big brands

are thinking let's play it safe
all the way and if a new trend

pops up and someone's done all
the legwork of getting out

there, we'll just buy it.
Their innovation has has dropped

off a Cliff.
You know you I think the the

biggest innovation I think that
they've done for ages has been

Gordon's Pink, which arrived
about 15 years too late.

Apart from that, I think it was
SIROC was the previous

innovation product they launched
in 2005.

It's a great point what you
bring in because if a consumer

thinking thinks in categories,
yeah, it they think in

categories because they think of
what they know of that category.

It's the safe bet that you
mentioned.

Also I know that RAM is kind of
sweet on average.

So I I feel like something's we
so now some people may and I'm

I'm asking this to bartenders
whenever I go out, no.

And I said, like, do people look
at the cocktail menu from?

I think the bar is is that
place.

People need to be introduced to
new things and they need to

build a positive association
with it in order to buy it

again.
So people think I like rum.

I drink rum and coke when I'm at
the pub, so I'm going to order a

rum.
I'm at a bar, I'll order a rum.

Or if they're at a cocktail bar,
which charges a high enough

price to make people think that
they're going to really get

something special, You know, it
looks the part.

The the drinks look amazing.
The bartenders look like they

know what they're doing and they
look professional.

That's, that's the setting where
they can be introduced to new

products because they trust the
absolutely.

And the bartenders are really
good at creating a lasting

experience that they will then
take with them and go.

We had this amazing drink.
In your opinion, that builds the

bridge between categories.
Because, for example, last

Saturday I went to the whiskey
Festival here in Prague and I

brought with me a friend of
mine, and he's a big rum

drinker.
You know, he doesn't drink

whiskey and he never drank
whiskey, but I took him with me

and and then I I introduced him
to to something.

We tasted the Glenfid, the 21
Grand Reserva.

It's finished in Ram casks.
And then I used that as a bridge

because I said like try of of
course.

I mean everybody wants to introd
be into the you know, wants to

be introduced to whiskey with a
21 year old Glenfidi.

But, you know, I took that path
because for me that was the easy

entry for him because he's a rum
drinker.

And that would have been a nice
bridge for him because he

wouldn't have been put off by
the whiskey taste and flavor

knowing his rum palate, you
know.

And I think that in order for,
you know, like there's there's a

lot of conversation in brands
and whenever I work with

clients, it's it's about
recruiting from outside the

category, you know.
But to recruit from outside the

category, you need to have a
very clear idea of how you're

going to do that because you're
not going to have people's

witching categories just because
you're putting a brand or a

Buster in front of your face.
What would be interesting for me

to to know from you is is from
like seeing this from a

distiller perspective, do people
come to you with this kind of

like interesting or crazy ideas
or like bridge ideas or or do

they come more with a quite
clear category lens?

That's a tricky 1 because I love
making.

These bridge products I love
innovating with people and and

you know coming up with
something that is really special

and if and if they really want
to sell well and they want a big

brand to come in and buy it,
they've got to create something

new.
But no big brands looking for

another gin, another London Dry,
that's that's not going to

happen.
So if that's their exit

strategy.
They've got to come up with

something or we have to come up
with something together you know

and and something that they they
can really sell.

It's it's it's just such a
there's such an interesting

landscape.
Do you play with ingredients or

with maturation or with a cask
like how?

How do you play with this?
Kind of like bridges between

categories?
It it, it's great.

It's like, you know, when you're
creating it, it's like

conducting an orchestra, so you
have different elements.

Within it and you can and you
can play with all of them to

create something completely
different.

But you can use unique raw
materials like which would be

like a unique instrument being
added into into your orchestra.

You can.
You can have more maturation,

you can have less maturation,
You can have different styles,

you know, But all of it needs to
serve towards meeting the needs.

Of your early adopters and
meeting the needs of you know if

if we do this it's going to add
5 lbs per bottle to your raw

material cost.
Are you going to be able to sell

that?
I know a lot of people think

they can sell anything, but sure
you can sell 1 bottle, but it's

one pallet.
It's it's really hard.

It is hard.
I I would always come back to

the founder.
What's their brand truth?

What is true to them about this
liquid?

What's their story with it?
Because that's the one that

they're going to be telling
everyone and that's, that's how

they're going to be getting out
there.

And you know, like I was talking
about the the rum guys with

their growing up in on on sugar
cane farm.

That's why they add it.
That's why it's in there.

That's why it's different.
And and this is true to them,

this is their story and they can
paint the picture for their

customer, you know.
And I I come back to the music

analogy.
Again in the the for me a really

good spirit.
It can be like listening to a

really good piece of music that
it it transports you to a

different time, a different
place that the the artist has

has put together.
And this is is something that

we're sort of Co creating to
deliver that experience to

someone else.
And I think if you can, if you

can deliver that in a liquid, if
you can take someone to the

sugar cane farm you grew up on
in India.

And then you know with the
romance with the flavours, with

the story that that's what makes
it really special and the

bartender can then tell that
story to your customer.

How do you make that happen?
Because for example, like I'm

I'm a very pragmatic, I mean you
know me from from the podcast

and what I like to think in
terms of simple storytelling

instead of like a very elevated
storytelling Now So to to your

example, like I wouldn't go deep
into the family analogy of

growing up on the farm because I
would for me was like, OK, but

tell me what am I supposed to
taste here?

This is the interesting thing,
because you're right.

Verbally you shouldn't.
But there are lots of things,

luckily, that do the talking for
you.

The package does the talking for
you.

The liquid, the taste, the
aromas.

You know, they're they're all
there.

Right.
And and you've got to hit those

things that people have a shared
memory of to be able to

transport them.
What do people associate with

India in terms of flavors?
What will people have been

consuming here or what will be
in the shared palette of flavor

that makes people so?
Exactly, exactly.

But you've got to do this,
achieve this whilst remaining

premium enough that it isn't a
spiced rum, because Spiced Rums

doesn't tick all those premium
luxury boxes.

So you have to achieve this with
the raw material, with the

barrel, with all of this sort of
stuff.

So you know this, that's the
challenge.

That's the interesting thing.
When I worked in wine before,

you know, I think at the time
New Zealand Sauvignon Blanc was

40% of every glass of white wine
sold in the UK.

Which is insane.
People loved New Zealand

Sauvignon Blanc and it was a
premium product and and yet we

were selling insane amounts of
it.

Why was that?
Well, this, this was a this was

the really interesting thing is
right, because the population of

New Zealand is five, 6 million
people and no one.

There's hardly anyone that lives
there.

How many British people have
been to New Zealand?

Not that many, because it's
expensive.

It's the other side of the
world.

So what about the flavors in
that wine makes it resonate with

British people?
Some people said it was the

fresh grassy aromas to it that
remind English people of fresh

cut grass, which is something
that we all experience.

I think there there's a degree
of truth to that.

We're talking here in
pseudoscience, right?

You know, this is there's a lot
of assumptions here, right?

We're making but.
But I I think that there is a

degree of truth to, you know,
national taste.

You know what?
What makes people share flavour?

Absolutely.
I would assume that also like

there, there were quite a big
community of Kiwis out there

working in pubs and bars, and
that's also for information, you

know, because because that
that's what I mean that there is

always a reason for me.
And I would love to get some

evidence of what I'm saying
because otherwise it's

pseudoscience, as you call it.
But I think it would be the same

thing as with the Italians or,
you know, imagine with the

Mexicans, you know, working in
the US on the success of tequila

and mezcal.
Would tequila be so big in the

US if there were no Mexican
working in American restaurants

and bars?
The the reality, this is the

$1,000,000 question.
Well, yeah, that that is a very

good question.
Would it have the same level?

Absolutely not.
These things are always complex.

You know, there's lots of moving
parts to it.

And yes, I completely agree.
There are Mexicans working in in

and and also Mexican fine
dining.

I think it's 40% of the
population of the US speaks

Spanish.
There's a a real sort of

cultural mixing that's certainly
the closest Spanish speaking

neighbour.
So you know you're going to have

all of that, but also that may
account for a percentage of it.

But then how does that multiply
and how does that move on from

there?
It goes back to what you were

saying about the early adopters.
No, if those are the people that

are that are, they keep hustling
and pushing the brand because

whenever they got a chance they
say, oh, like you're looking for

white wine.
Have you ever tried the Kiwi

Sauvignon Blanc, you know, or
oh, you're looking for a beer,

have you ever tried an Italian
beer and so on.

Then you you basically have got
an army of people that are

amplifying your product almost
24/7 when if you look at it from

a global perspective now.
So I I think that's the that's

the interesting thing on having
a clear target occasion because

if the occasion is big enough
you know internationally it

doesn't matter that if it's only
that apparative.

You know, have you ever seen
anybody drinking apparel spritz

at midnight?
I I haven't.

You know, like people just.
I live in England.

I've seen everything I've seen.
I've seen.

I've seen people drinking Aperol
without the spritz.

OK, I don't.
I don't want to know that.

But no, OK, that that came out
like a little bit bad, but you

know what I mean?
Like it's like it's a clear,

it's a clear occasion when the
power of having a clear occasion

can bring you very, very far.
No.

Yeah, definitely, definitely.
But and actually that does bring

off another point, It's you
never know what the consumers

are actually going to do with
it.

You can have all these
intentions and everything like

that.
And and you know, the beauty of

it is that people take it.
And with spirits, unlike in

wine, people do whatever the
hell they want with it.

You know you want to put it with
Coke.

You want Aperol and Coke.
But I'm sure there are people

out there who do it and that,
you know, like, well, like

Shawnebranca, did the Italians
ever ever imagine that it would

go to South America and people
are going to drink millions of

bottles of it with Coke?
Absolutely not.

You know, it's delicious.
It's, it's a really interesting

serve you know, and even even I
mean and take for example, you

know I used to go to Chile for
for work previously.

And if if you take Chile and
Peru and their disputes about

pisco, but in terms of occasion,
you know, like where you go to

Peru, it's a pisco sour.
And when you go to Chile's Pisco

Cola, so it's the same liquid
drank in a totally different

way, which is very interesting
because you know, it's

neighboring countries.
You know, of course like they've

got their differences and
similarities and so on.

But you know, it's very
interesting when you know an

occasion or even more niche than
an occasion, like a proper

cocktail, you know, becomes so
relevant at scale and doesn't

make sense in another country
that is actually, like just

across the border.
Yeah and and these rules that

you've applied in your own
country, you know it.

I tell you, Peruvian pisco is
not being drunk with coke and

not in the UK.
It's in a sour.

It's in a sour that's that's the
drink, right.

That's the pisco sour is the is
the famous one.

No, no.
And that's and that's the thing.

And and also like when it comes
to what I was saying earlier,

like you know, if if it wasn't
for the Renaissance of Peruvian

food and and on people
recognizing that Peruvian food

is one of the best food out
there as a national cuisine, you

know, Pisco Sour wouldn't be
that relevant and you wouldn't

find it almost everywhere
nowadays.

This is this is the other really
interesting thing is why is

pisco La pisco being consumed in
a pisco sour in Peruvian

restaurants in the UK and that
it comes back to the ecosystem

of the trade?
Because the bartenders can

charge £10 plus for a pisco
sour, they cannot charge that

for a pisco and coke that that's
the the long and short of it.

So they have to create an
experience, they have to create

a premiumized version, and the
spirit mixer has a ceiling.

I mean, in London, 10 lbs is
nothing anymore.

I mean, but you know, but
outside of in the rest of the

world.
There's a ceiling to how much

people are going and if we What
is the best part of you know for

you of being a distiller, you
know what is, what is the the

part that you like the most
about distilling?

I started out in wine and I grew
to.

Not hate hates a strong word,
but I just felt alienated by the

trade.
I felt alienated by the

industry.
I I thought that, you know,

regardless of the flavour and
the science, it was all about

who you know, where it's from
and and and all the things

you're not supposed to do with
it.

All these rules and solemnity
that we create around around

wine.
And actually spirits for me,

firstly from a from a creative
perspective, you know you're

doing all the fermentations,
you're selecting all these

different raw materials and A
and a vast range of different

raw materials.
So I love working with people

and growers and farmers and all
of this to create really special

things.
And then you know we do the

fermentation, we can play with
the yeasts, we have the science

element of it as well.
Then we have the the

distillation, which can be even
more creative.

And then the maturation, which
can take everything to more

premium, more delicious,
sometimes less delicious areas.

But then we then put it into a
pack.

The packaging in spirits is
exciting as well.

You know the the bottle designs,
the shapes, the garden gnomes,

whatever you whatever you like.
And then and then ultimately you

then take it to a bar.
And these bars, these guys put

their heart and soul in 16 hours
of work a day into creating.

Incredible drinks and incredible
experiences with your products

for consumers who appreciate
about 5% of that, but but

sometimes, you know, one in 10-1
in 100, they'll take an

experience they've had, they've
shared with their friends and

they will take that away and
they'll remember it forever.

And I like that.
I love that.

And that's, that's a beautiful
way of, you know, of closing

this, this, this great chat that
we had and let let people know

how how they can find you and
you know everything about about

you and and and your company.
Yeah, OK.

So we're called Pleasant Land
Distillery.

We're based in the Southeast of
England.

We're a carbon neutral, fully
renewable energy powered

contract distillery where we
create spirits from scratch and

we rectify it and we compound
for people across every spirits

category except for the barring
protected geographic

indications.
We also have our own spirits.

We have Whitecliff's Gin.
Feel free to pop onto the

website and and buy a bottle.
And we also have just launched

are vodka, which is a vodka made
exclusively from apples called

Eve, handmade in the garden of
England.

So return to paradise.
All right.

It it was amazing to talk to
you, Chris.

Thank you so much.
Thank you.

Thank you so much Sebastian.
Thank you.

All right, All the best.
That's all for today.

Remember that this is a two-part
episode, 35 and 36.

If you enjoyed it, please rate
it, comment and share it with

friends.
And come back next week for more

insights about building brands
from the bottom up.