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In a world that feels increasingly chaotic, uncertain, and hard to make sense of, Realms of Curiosity with Sarah and Wendy offers a different kind of conversation.
Drawing from shamanic practice, psychology, and decades of firsthand experience with non-ordinary reality, Sarah and Wendy explore the deeper forces shaping our inner and outer worlds—from intuition and consciousness to deception, transformation, and the shifting nature of truth itself.
They don’t claim to have answers. Instead, they follow curiosity into the unknown—questioning, exploring, and inviting you to do the same.
Because in times like these, curiosity might be one of the most powerful tools we have.
Welcome to Realms of Curiosity. Listen in as two friends explore the mysteries of the universe through the lens of their otherworldly experiences.
Sarah:Hi, Wendy.
Wendy:Hi, Sarah. Hey. How are you doing?
Sarah:Good. Yeah? Here we are back for another
Wendy:We are back.
Sarah:We're back
Wendy:for some more fun.
Sarah:Fireside chat.
Sarah:Fun. Yeah. Yeah.
Wendy:I guess you gotta be careful saying fireside out in Los Angeles. Yeah.
Sarah:We've been having the most beautiful time here. It's just been, like, 75, 80 degrees and a lot of rain, and it's just been the complete opposite of last year.
Wendy:It sounds like the complete opposite of what I'm experiencing in Vermont. Been a little frigid, and there's flurries falling right now, but the sun is out.
Sarah:I love those days in Vermont when the snow looks crystally because the sun is out. That's beautiful.
Wendy:It is beautiful. Yeah. It's it's sparkly. Yeah. I I was wanting to pick up from our first conversation.
Wendy:This seems like such a basic question, but since this is the realms of curiosity Yeah. How do you describe shamanism to people? When you get a new client, how do you describe it to people, or how do you describe it in general?
Sarah:Well, sometimes it changes around a little bit depending on what's going on in my head on any particular day. But I think the basic distinction that is important is that there's ordinary reality and nonordinary reality. And the kind of program that we're indoctrinated into the way that we perceive the world and each other and all the stuff that we include in ordinary reality. But there's also this other vast world of nonordinary reality, and shamanism seems to have been the foundation for that kind of thinking, I think.
Wendy:But why don't you say what you mean by that? That shamanism is the foundation for that kind of thinking. So
Sarah:working with the spiritual realms is it's included in so much that
Wendy:So it's universal.
Wendy:Is that what you mean?
Sarah:Very universal. Yeah. But, you know, you and I studied different kinds of shamanism. You studied the Hawaiian Polynesian shamanism. I studied Michael Harner's Foundation for Shamanic Studies.
Wendy:So core Shamanism.
Sarah:Core Shamanism.
Wendy:But I had core Shamanism kind of embedded into my training as well because my teacher learned from Michael Harner, who started the foundation for Shamanic Studies.
Sarah:Is it relevant to talk about shamanism in a global way? It seems from what Karner brought into our Western world that shamanism has existed all over the world, frickin and Celtic. And each of those spiritual connections has a cultural overtone. Right? And
Wendy:Meaning the culture that is having the experiences explain it in within the context of their cultural worldview? Okay. Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah.
Wendy:That's-- what I would agree.
Sarah:The Celtic people, for example, who who follow nature so closely, who talk to the trees, who have these gods that are connected
Wendy:The druids.
Sarah:The druids and and, you know, then the African people who incredible herbal wisdom that they bring to I don't know that much about African shamanism, but I know there is a very strong herbal and healing component. And we can go on and on, right, about how each culture brought this spiritual connection in even even the religions. It's basically the same. You know, monotheistic god or I don't wanna be backing myself up into a here too late.
Wendy:Too late. Late. I already said. I'm just kidding.
Wendy:I'm kidding. Yes. So
Sarah:when I do explain it to people, I begin from that premise that there is ordinary and nonordinary reality. And in many cultures, nonordinary reality consists of thinking that this is the middle world, and then there's the upper world and the lower world where you can meet reliably compassionate, benevolent beings. And they are wise and have a way of bringing to us a reality that is more connected to the infinite potential, more connected to and that's a word I use, not necessarily that Harner used or words that I use. And so I don't know. That's that seems to be the basis of where I begin and then teach people how to open their minds telepathically to these other realms.
Sarah:I don't know. Does that sound reasonable?
Wendy:Yeah. That sounds reasonable. Yeah. I mean, it's similar to how I describe it to folks as well.
Sarah:How would you describe it?
Wendy:Tell Well, I start out by saying that it's ancient medicine. It's been on the planet for tens of thousands of years, and pretty much every culture comes from a shamanic tradition is my understanding. So if we all go back far enough in our own our own lineage, our ancestry, will bump up against a shamanic practice, most likely, and that the common thread that's universal is an altered state of consciousness. And so different regions go about getting into that altered state in different ways, and a lot of us are familiar with plant medicines being used like Ayahuasca and Eboga in Africa and peyote in the Southwest and psilocybin and you name it. All kinds of different plant medicines.
Wendy:That's one way. And then there's fasting, like the classic vision quest, going out into the wild without food and asking for a vision. Yeah. Breathing techniques now is holotropic breath work can get you into an altered state. My understanding is dancing, like whirling dervishes spin to get into an altered state.
Sarah:Yeah.
Wendy:And then there's sound, which is probably the safest and easiest way to get into an altered state, and which is what most of us in the Western world who are practicing shamanism are using is sound Yeah. Which is what the foundation was using and what Hank taught us to use as well. And when the practitioner's in this altered state, however they go about getting into it, they travel from this reality where you and I are having this conversation to a different reality. Mhmm. And this other reality is referred to as non ordinary reality, non physical reality, the spirit world, the dream time, all different names for the same place.
Sarah:Mhmm.
Wendy:But when it gets weird is when we're in this other reality, we connect with helping spirits. And they're the ones who actually do the healing work and give information. So the shamanic practitioner's job is to take someone's request for healing from this world to that world
Sarah:Mhmm.
Wendy:Because they need an invitation to intervene, the helping spirits. When somebody requests healing, they are giving my invisible friends permission to work with them.
Sarah:Right.
Wendy:And the same is true for you. Right? And so the thing that I think that's important that I I stress is that every practitioner is different. Because once you start practicing, you got your foundational understanding of shamanism and the practice of shamanism through the Foundation for Shamanic Studies, and then I got mine through Hank Wesselman. And Hank really emphasized the idea that I'm gonna be laying the groundwork for you, but then your learning will transition into the dream time.
Sarah:Exactly.
Wendy:And then your spirit helpers and teachers will teach you new techniques and take you into new territory. Yeah. And that's certainly been the case for me. Sounds like it has been for you too. Yeah?
Sarah:Yeah. It has been for me. And, like, when you said, what do I tell people when they come? My perspective on what's happening shifts around a lot. I don't actually adhere to shamanic methods.
Sarah:My thinking has become much more that what I am connecting to in these different perspectives is, like, the infinite consciousness. I think of it all as infinite consciousness, and I have started to think that when we work with a spirit guide, like, let's say you go to to receive information from a power animal, and it's a it happens to be a raven. And people
Wendy:What an excellent choice.
Sarah:What an excellent choice. Yeah. And people will often say, oh my god. I love ravens. Well, yeah.
Sarah:Of course, you do. But is it that information from all consciousness has come in the form of raven because we are human beings with that's what we're gonna understand. We're gonna understand and trust information that comes from something that we love or connect with or have some kind of foundation with. It's not like people ever receive a power animal and say, oh my god. I don't like those.
Sarah:I mean, they can
Wendy:I've I've had that happen. Yeah.
Sarah:They can reject in certain ways. Yes. If, like, somebody gets an ant, and they'll think, I don't want an ant. That's too mundane or whatever. Yes.
Wendy:Yeah.
Sarah:It's too
Wendy:It's not sexy enough.
Sarah:Yeah. Not sexy enough. You know, people want, like, tigers, all the big cheese animals. So my feeling is that by connecting to this kind of oneness consciousness, it will break down in different pieces for me to understand because I'm a limited being in this human form, and so it has been easier for me to understand in that way. Does that make sense?
Wendy:It does make sense, and it's making me think that when we dive into at some point, I'd really love to have a conversation about your perspective and share perspectives on the nature of reality. And I think we'll end up delving into what that reality could be Yeah. Comprised of. Yeah. So I think, yeah, stay tuned for that conversation.
Sarah:Like, the shamanic does start to touch on quantum physics and some of these other things that have become very much a part of our everyday knowledge with the advent of the Internet. We get so much information about the scientific and the spiritual and how do they all fit together. The last years have been an incredible time of expanded consciousness for so many people. Don't you think?
Wendy:Oh, yeah. No. Things are opening up
Sarah:Yeah.
Wendy:As we slip deeper and deeper into chaos. Yeah. There is that which is exciting to me. Like, through the chaos are these kind of threads of possibility that we're being shown of like, there's maybe there's more Yeah. Which is not a bad message No.
Wendy:To lean on when you're trying to just get by when the world is falling apart.
Sarah:Yeah. It's the chaos is interesting and just being able to in that discomfort. And I think having spiritual practices of any kind helps us to sit in discomfort. Certain psychological practices, you know, learning to self regulate and, like, all those kinds of things are important.
Wendy:Self regulation. I'll have to try that sometime.
Sarah:Yeah. Me too. Yeah.
Wendy:One of the things that you said when we were talking about actually recording these conversations was the idea that so many of us are stuck.
Sarah:Yeah. Yeah.
Wendy:What do you mean by that? What's your idea of I agree with you, but I'm just curious about what you mean by that. I'm gonna count how many times I used the word curious to. I've said it, like, 7,000 times already today.
Sarah:7,000?
Wendy:Yeah. Did you count?
Sarah:Plain exaggerated.
Wendy:Are you curious about just how many times I said curious? Everything's fine. Everything's just gonna be great.
Sarah:Edit.
Wendy:Oh, it's real.
Wendy:It is real.
Sarah:Is it real?
Wendy:Yeah. How how fucked up I speak? Yeah. That's real. Yeah.
Wendy:There's only so much editing I can do for that.
Sarah:What's the question?
Wendy:About stuckness. Like Oh, yeah. Stuckness. Yeah. What do you mean by that?
Sarah:Yeah. Yeah. People that my own experience of my life has been dealing with areas where I was stuck. And when I have clients come, that seems to be the dominant theme. People are stuck.
Sarah:They have an ego mind that's constantly telling them the bad stuff. You know? You're a worthless piece of shit. You're not the ego is such a tricky thing in my experience. It's like it's telling you all the bad stuff, or it's telling you, well, you're so much better than everybody.
Sarah:It's bounce between those two things, and people get very stuck in that program, you know, that's running from something they learned from their parents, something they were told in their schools. Where do we get these notions of being bad or being unworthy? We're not worthy of love. We're not worthy of happiness. We don't even know how to find happiness.
Sarah:Everybody Los Angeles is a city filled with people taking antidepressants. They're stuck in these narratives, really, is what it is. The stories that they're telling in their mind, and that's limited by their programming feel and the conditioning that they've received in life. And so how can you change the narrative to something else, to a story that is more user friendly about yourself? And how can you stop believing the ego when it appears and tells you you're a worthless piece of shit for whatever reason?
Sarah:Fill in the blanks.
Wendy:Right. Yeah. What really stayed with me in our last conversation is you used the phrase programmed mind. Yeah. And that's basically what you're referencing right now. Right?
Sarah:Yeah.
Wendy:I couldn't agree more. Yeah. I think it's interesting.
Sarah:And it's so boring. It's so
Wendy:It is boring.
Sarah:Oh my god. Get me out of here.
Wendy:Yeah. It's a very cerebral process that you're to me that you're referring to. The beliefs that we have become unconscious. Yeah. And I'm fond of saying that I think human beings are 95 to 99% unconscious when we're awake.
Wendy:What what you're referring to as the ego mind is the thing that thinks it's in charge in running the show. Yeah. And, really, it's the unconscious that's
Sarah:It is.
Wendy:Running the show, and that's where all of those patterns and stories, the narratives that we have live. At least, that's what I discovered as a result of doing shamanic healing work on behalf of others. It's like, I get a front row seat to those narratives playing out in dream form, like symbolic form.
Sarah:Yeah. And Exactly.
Wendy:And then those narratives, that's part of the healing process, at least from my experience, is changing that narrative. You're helping spirits step into the narrative, and they start interacting with it. And they will take elements out that aren't serving that person, which is called extraction, and they may rearrange things. And then but a big hallmark of shamanic healing is power augmentation, which is reconnecting someone with personal power because
Sarah:Exactly.
Wendy:I'm also fond of saying, if you've been on the planet more than two weeks, you start losing personal power. You do. Yeah. Because give it away to others unconsciously, sometimes consciously. We lose it because of shit that's happening to us or has happened to us.
Wendy:And so by the time we're adults, I think we all have varying degrees of power loss. So in a healing session, people can reconnect with personal power, and then that is part of helping to transform that narrative about themselves to see them as a powerful person Yeah. As opposed to someone who is beholden to the messages that you were referencing that they get in childhood, from the people who raised them, the authority figures in their lives, the peers that they hang out with or who are giving them a hard time or whatever.
Sarah:Absolutely.
Wendy:Yeah. What you're referring like, the program mind, I always refer to it as kind of like a prison.
Sarah:That's funny that you say a prison because the visual so I the way my mind works is I see everything in pictures. Mhmm. I have some weird
Wendy:Were you seeing the bars that I was seeing as I was talking about it?
Sarah:No. But I see the programmed mind as a drum. It's like a big drum that's just churning with all this stuff in it that is very not helpful, but it's also a prison. It's just like this steel container where we go around and round in circles and try and find our unstuckness.
Wendy:And the ironic part is that we usually have the key to the cell door hanging around our necks, but we don't know that. No. This is this is a cast of raven talon Oh. In brass. Yeah.
Wendy:Oh, that's I'm a raven girl. Right? Yeah. Isn't that cool? A jeweler in Vermont who makes these.
Wendy:She's quite gifted.
Sarah:Wow. I would like one of those.
Wendy:It's neat,
Sarah:Yeah. Yeah. We both seem to have--
Sarah:These yeah. This is my uniform. Power objects. Right? I don't know what may at some point, we might talk about those things.
Sarah:Yeah. There's some interesting stories for sure with those things. I'm not wearing it today, but I have a jade piece that I wear that was gifted to me from strange circumstances that Oh, yeah? Makes for a kind of weirdly interesting story. But yeah.
Wendy:For another time. Okay.
Sarah:Another time.
Wendy:This is jade too. This this it's black jade, I guess, from Big Sur region.
Sarah:Interesting. Yeah. It was a gift. From the universe or from a person?
Wendy:From a human being. Yes.
Sarah:They're both the universe.
Sarah:So that's the unstuckness that I promote, like, for people. And it's not so unusual for people who are doing any kind of therapy with clients to help them find new narratives. That's not a shamanic thing necessarily. But like you said, by journeying, by going into the other realms, the nonordinary, you're able to access the unconscious in a way that directly, intimately, and teaching people how to journey, they can access the unconscious.
Wendy:Exactly. I was just gonna pivot to that. When I'm doing healing sessions, I don't work in that way because that's how you were taught in the foundation, right, is to do co journeying where your client and you are journeying at the same time?
Sarah:Yeah. In a different way than I do, but yeah.
Wendy:Okay. But, yeah, usually, I am doing it on behalf of the other person.
Sarah:Oh, so the other person doesn't journey in your
Wendy:No. I mean, if they do it spontaneously, that's cool. But I'm not You don't see doing all of the work with my invisible friends. But what I was gonna say is that getting back to what I had mentioned last time is how cool it would be if everyone became their own Shaman. And that's, to me, is like a Yeah.
Wendy:That everyone can learn how to do this.
Sarah:Exactly.
Wendy:It's getting out of your head. I mean, you cannot you cannot access these dream time realms, non ordinary realms, from your intellect. You're not imagining these places.
Wendy:You're perceiving them. You're perceiving stuff that's already there. Most of us struggle with accessing it because we think we have to think our way into it or we're conjuring it in some way. Yeah. That's true.
Wendy:That's what I found over the years of teaching people how to do it. Once you get in that space, then it's like then you're open to all of these possibilities. And, yeah, and we'll we can talk about the lay of the land in non ordinary reality in another conversation. But but, yeah, like, each place you can go to. Each one of the worlds that you referenced, you can access different sources of power and different information.
Wendy:And it's, yeah, it's
Sarah:And one once you start
Sarah:if you develop a practice journeying to these places, you start to be able to access that information even when you're in your ordinary consciousness.
Wendy:Great point.
Sarah:Yes. You and I have been journeying for thirty years or whatever, twenty five, thirty years. It's like that door, it is always open. Yes. We're sitting, having an ordinary conversation with our laptops in our life, but that information is always still able to be coming through.
Wendy:It's always there. It's always streaming. And and and as a great reminder to all of us is that we did this innately as children. We were accessing these other realms
Sarah:Yes.
Wendy:As kids. Yeah. It wasn't until we started developing that ego mind that we especially in our culture and Western culture
Sarah:Yeah.
Wendy:That that wasn't valued.
Wendy:That kind of those otherworldly experiences and paranormal experiences weren't yeah. They weren't valued. It's kinda like you telling the story of your what was your great uncle?
Sarah:My grandfather's brother.
Wendy:How he didn't share the story of, or didn't share that there was this the spirit of the woman who hanged Yeah. Lucy. Because he didn't think people could handle it or would wanna hear it. And what a shame. Yeah.
Sarah:Yeah.
Wendy:What a shame that -- if we had a more open minded culture
Wendy:Yeah. We would be...
Sarah:Well, he did live in an open minded culture, the spiritualist movement.
Wendy:That was a subculture within the greater culture.
Sarah:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Wendy:Yeah. Of course, he was free to do that. Like, when we're in our little shamanic trainings, it's very open there. And you go home, and you tell your family or whatever, and they're like They're like, okay.
Sarah:Yeah. So It's so awful. We used to call it reentry when we would go back after long trainings, like, I was doing the three year program with the foundation, and we would be there for a week or ten days or whatever. And then you'd go home, and you'd feel like, oh my god. Like, what's happened here?
Sarah:You know? It you were so accustomed to being in those places. You're
Wendy:Both places at the same time.
Sarah:Yeah. Both places at the same and with people who are all doing the same thing. And and you're back, and your husband's like, you did what? Sure.
Wendy:Yeah.
Sarah:What's for dinner? Yeah. You know, I find in my in my own mind, when I get stuck, I still get stuck. I'll be like, oh, I'm not feeling as I should desire to be or as I should be or whatever the case may be. And and there was a lot of b's at it.
Sarah:It's because I've drifted back into the place of the drum going around in the drum. I find for me to connect with nature is my exit from
Wendy:I think that's true for all of us, actually. Yeah. Nature I mean, I don't know if we remember this or not, but we are nature.
Sarah:We are.
Wendy:Imagine that as we're sitting in our concrete foundation houses and buildings and separate from it. But, yeah, of course, everybody feels better. I mean, if you go hang out by a tree or by a creek or sit on a rock or sit on some grass for five minutes, you're not gonna feel the same No. As the same way you did when you approached said tree or rock or grass.
Sarah:Yeah. Even if it's like a park some grass,
Sarah:Lay down on it and and ask the energy of the earth to take away some of the bad feelings you're having or if you're depressed or sad or whatever, just ask it to help you let go of those feelings. And inevitably, something happens. You know?
Wendy:Or if you just stare at some clouds going by.
Sarah:We forget. You know? We forget we forget that we're surrounded by this benevolent energy, you know, that that can help us, and we just get lost. We get stuck to get back to that word. Pema Chodron wrote a book called Getting Unstuck, I believe.
Sarah:Yeah. I haven't read it, but I'm assuming it's similar kind of idea.
Wendy:Except you probably have to meditate a whole bunch.
Sarah:You probably do. Yeah. You don't like meditating?
Wendy:I'm not good at it. I can't do it. Except I mean, shamanic trance is a form of meditation, but it's just it's highly engaging, so I can do that. But that whole mindfulness crap?
Sarah:Yeah. My clients are funny. This happens all the time because I ask them to journey in between our sessions, and they'll come, and I'll say, did you journey? And they'll say, "No. But I meditated."
Sarah:Like, I don't care about meditation. Nice that you did that.
Sarah:Yeah. But you don't get a
Wendy:You don't get a trophy today. Yep. For
Sarah:for that. We laughed about
Wendy:I was just thinking that looking through that lens of stuckness because, yes, we all have moments. If we're lucky, it's only moments of stuckness where it's probably more like areas of our lives where we feel stuck.
Sarah:Yeah. For sure.
Wendy:Whether it's relationships or workplace stuff or Yeah. In our own heads Yeah. That I think that's one of the greatest gifts that shamanic practice has offered me is, obviously, a way to get unstuck, but also that it's like your perspective on everything just gets blown open.
Sarah:Yeah.
Wendy:And so, like, you can for like, if you're doing a Shamanic journey and you're wanting to understand something about your stuckness, you can get outside of it and see it from a different perspective and then also have help to help you see it that way. Yeah. It is, there's something about I don't even know if I can articulate it, but there's something about being outside of a problem that you're experiencing and living that is not only relieving, but also can help you see it better and help you see your options and the way that problem is influencing you from a distance instead of feeling claustrophobic in it or imprisoned by it. Does that make sense?
Sarah:Yeah. Totally. Totally. I mean, it's the same thing that people do with tarot readings or horoscopes, or it allows them to get outside
Wendy:An outside perspective. Yeah.
Sarah:See it from a different light. Mhmm. You know? And those things, that's what they do. I'm sure even Ouija boards that we use as kids.
Sarah:It just gives you a little glimpse into something in a way that you didn't have that glimpse before.
Wendy:Yeah. And what a gift that is to be able to to see to see something differently because that's stuckness. Right? It's like you're seeing it the same way. You're thinking about it the same way over and over and over and over again, and you don't necessarily see a way out.
Wendy:And then if you go to a talk therapist, then you tell that story, and then you dissect that story, but but it may not always
Sarah:Then what? Yeah. Yeah.
Wendy:I know.
Sarah:There. People are, like, stuck in other ways too. I mean Yeah. It's really a shame we don't all have a therapist assigned when we're six years old and you know?
Wendy:A shamanic elder, I think, I would prefer that.
Sarah:I would. Yeah.
Wendy:I'm a mental health clinician, and I really see the limitations in talk therapy because it typically keeps people in their story. Or maybe I'm just the shittiest therapist in the world, but but it's the I have to a lot of psychology, though, the field of psychology is opening up to other ways of of doing the work, like internal family systems, like parts work. That's very shamanic, actually.
Sarah:Very shamanic.
Wendy:Somatic therapies too because a lot of that stuff that people are struggling with is living in their bodies. All of that stuff is living in their bodies. Your head is where you think about that stuff, but it's not living in there. It might feel like it is. Yeah.
Wendy:And anxiety is when you're just spinning about it.
Sarah:The drama.
Wendy:Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.
Wendy:Again, yeah, these are just my thoughts. You don't have to buy into my thoughts at all, but there they are. I think talk therapy can be helpful. There's nothing like having somebody hear you out, listen to your story with a compassionate ear, maybe help you see things a little bit differently. But I guess I'm more interested, and I think that's kinda what I was talking about last time is that when I was in graduate school, I was thinking there's gotta be something more.
Wendy:Yeah. Because I was learning all the theory and the approaches for talk therapy. Not all of them, but the big ones that were there at the time. And I was thinking, like, it was just an intuition. Like, there's gotta be something more.
Wendy:And once I started practicing, and I've been I still do talk therapy. I've been doing it for over thirty years. It doesn't quite lead to the kind of change that I think I'm interested in helping people with. I mean, because it the amount of discipline it would take to pay it it's because, like I was saying before, all of that stuff that's unconscious, that's sort of living Uh-huh. In your body that's influencing you all the time, it's one thing to develop insight about that.
Wendy:Like, oh, now I'm aware. That's why I feel the way I do, why I behave the way I do, or react the way I do. Oh, okay. So now you have a great answer for why.
Sarah:Yeah.
Wendy:But it doesn't change the fact that you feel that way, you behave that way, you react that way.
Sarah:Yeah. Yeah.
Wendy:And that's what I was interested in. And when the shamanic stuff started happening, and then I started learning it, and I was like, oh. Well, now you have a direct line right to Yeah. That narrative, and you can work with it.
Sarah:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No.
Wendy:It's And it's nonverbal. It's not
Sarah:Right.
Wendy:It's not about it yeah. It's hopefully, it's just it just feels validating when you hear or you see it if you're journeying for yourself or if somebody's journeying on your behalf.
Sarah:Yeah. Well, we journey together. And, you know, we the structure of the things I do is person comes in, we talk about the stuff, then we journey on the stuff. So there's the kind of psychological therapeutic input, but then often, I will feel like I need to know more about this through the journey state. It will
Wendy:So let's journey.
Sarah:So let's journey, and we journey to the child self or to the adolescent self or to the realms that are part of it. And it's always, in my opinion, the most interesting part of our session. You know?
Wendy:The journeying?
Sarah:The journeying.
Wendy:Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Sarah:Always a surprise. It's like, oh, yeah. I think I understand what this is all about. And then we journey, and it's like, boom. It's a bigger picture, much bigger picture of what happened or what.
Wendy:But it's usually validating for the person? Oh, yeah. Now it makes more sense. Yeah. It's rich territory.
Wendy:There's something powerful about the symbolism. It's it, of course, is beyond words. It kind of plants a seed in your head too that the picture that either you have as the client or the practitioner who shared with you.
Sarah:Every now and then, you run across a person who can't journey. That's like
Wendy:Oh, yeah.
Sarah:That's a really interesting one.
Wendy:Or maybe it's just the way they don't perceive visually.
Sarah:Yeah. Yeah. But I'm deeply interested in what, and I don't have the answers yet of what that is. You know?
Wendy:I've certainly encountered that too. Yeah. At the risk of saying it, it tends to be men that I've encountered. Yeah. That have struggled with Yeah.
Wendy:Being able to journey.
Sarah:It's like they can't break out of that logic part of their brain or something. I'm not really sure.
Wendy:Yeah.
Sarah:Yeah, it does tend to be men, but not always. I've had others. Mhmm.
Sarah:Where does this leave us?
Wendy:At the end of the conversation? I don't know. What do you think?
Sarah:I think so. I feel like we've really gone into a lot of different thoughts today. And I'm Yeah. I'm wondering, is there is there, like
Wendy:Well, I think that's the nature of a conversation. Right? Is that you end up meandering around?
Sarah:Yeah. As long as it's coherent to somebody that's listening to it. Yeah. I would have control of that. Right?
Wendy:Yeah. I don't yeah. I have no idea. We could just be here alone right now.
Sarah:Alone in the universe!
Wendy:Except for our invisible friends.
Sarah:That's a strange thought, isn't it? Like, sitting here with this vehicle.
Wendy:And we're actually the only people?
Sarah:This is the craziest.
Sarah:It's like my dog.
Wendy:Well, at this moment, we are.
Sarah:At this moment, we are.
Wendy:Yeah.
Sarah:It's a very weird thought. I don't I'm not quite sure what to do with that.
Wendy:You don't have to do anything, I don't think. Do you do you think you need to?
Sarah:No. It just feels funny. It feels like I I feel like so here's the problem.
Wendy:Okay. What's the problem?
Sarah:Everything for me is a visual. Like, it's Right. So the image that came with that is our selves, like our spirits floating in the void. That was the image that kind of unsettled me a little bit.
Wendy:Gotcha. Okay.
Sarah:Not so much the thing, but the feeling of floating in the universe, just you and I, like, as these voices.
Wendy:You took that really seriously. Okay.
Sarah:Well, my unconscious, apparently.
Wendy:I was just thinking, like, it was funny.
Sarah:I don't think it was terrible. It was just it was like, oh, that's like
Sarah:That it's
Sarah:yeah. It's a funny feeling.
Wendy:Yeah. I get it now. You were talking about a different kind of funny. Yeah. Than I was talking about.
Wendy:Yeah. I was like, funny, Ha! Ha! And you're like, "funny disturbed."
Sarah:Yeah. Funny like. Yeah. Anyway. Okay.
Sarah:So we're gonna
Wendy:Yeah. I guess I guess we'll sign off now. Okay. Hey. So I'll see you next time.
Sarah:Yeah. See you next time.