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The Space Between – Heaven on Earth is a companion podcast to Awakening – Heaven on Earth.
Through intimate, heart-centered conversations, this series explores the lived experience of awakening — the questions, integrations, paradoxes, and sacred pauses where transformation truly occurs.
This is the space between knowing and becoming…
where Heaven meets Earth through honest dialogue.
Welcome to the space between heaven on earth. This is a companion podcast to awakening heaven on earth created as a space for reflection, conversation, and lived experience. Here, we enter the pause between knowing and becoming, between insight and embodiment, between heaven and earth. These conversations are not about answers or conclusions. They are about presence, about listening, about reasoning together, about meeting one another honestly in the unfolding journey of awakening.
Jeffrey Aylor:I'm your host, Jeffrey Aylor. Again, welcome and thank you for entering The Space Between with us. Welcome to The Space Between. I'm Jeffrey Aylor, your host, and in recent episodes we've been exploring the inner journey. How do you reclaim your sacred self?
Jeffrey Aylor:How do you listen more with your heart, with intuition? How do you experience the unity of time? But today we're going to step into something that brings all of this much more into real life. We're going to talk about relationship. Unity in relationship.
Jeffrey Aylor:This episode is actually called Unity in Living Without Separation. You know, it's one thing to feel connected internally, it's another one to get connected to other people. When we're alone or in stillness, unity sometimes can be a bit easier than but it's really different when we start adding people to this process and carry that awareness into our relationships, into our communication, into our conflicts, into the moments where we feel triggered or we feel misunderstood. So in many ways relationships become a very clear mirror, probably the clearest mirror, and in many cases we may feel unity within but not necessarily feel the unity without. This is where we might still be experiencing some sense of separation.
Jeffrey Aylor:So today I am so incredibly honored to be joined by somebody whose work, their presence is so deeply aligned with this conversation, Hernan Devi. Purna is a healer, a teacher, she's a guide who works through her Purna Devi healing arts, focuses on helping individuals reconnect with their authentic nature through energy work, through intuitive guidance, through embodied awareness. Her approach does a beautiful job of weaving together spiritual insight with grounded heart centered practice, creating a great space for healing, integration, a deeper connection within ourselves and with others. And you can learn more about our work at pernadevi.com. Perna, it is truly a gift to have you here this morning, absolutely a gift.
Jeffrey Aylor:I'm so excited, and I would really love to have you take a few moments to introduce yourself to everybody in your own words and share share a bit about your journey and the work that you're doing.
Purna Devi:Well, thank you all so much for the invitation. I have been looking forward to getting on the mic with Jeff and Joel and Sherry for a while. And so I have been in the healing arts field for about fifteen years, and what I see most common is people come to me when they've been in, know, therapy, talk therapy, they've been doing other things, they're seekers already, right? And what are we seeking? It really is that unity with self and it's to understand how to be more in relationship to ourselves and to others, right?
Purna Devi:We're not living in isolation in a cave like a monk and so we interact with people all day long and we bring that baggage with us everywhere we go, typically from our childhood. And so I tend to work with people who feel some type of disconnection to themselves, to their best version of self. And we do inner child work, mother wound healing, all the good stuff. And we start to really understand how these patterns that have been developed over time live in the nervous system, live in the mind, and then live in our relationships, right, and how we show up with ourselves and with others.
Jeffrey Aylor:You know, I've had the privilege of doing some training with you here recently, and just knew from the very beginning that there is a deep connection here.
Purna Devi:Yeah.
Jeffrey Aylor:And again, like you say, I'm so excited to to have you join us. That's just beautiful, and you know, we're gonna go ahead and transition now into the topic of our day, and that is Unity and Relationship. And I know we've had some really great conversations in our experience together about how different relationships have shaped who we are and where we are and why we are. So with that, I want to begin with a really simple but a deep question for each one of you, and that is when you hear the phrase unity and relationship, what does that mean to you in your own experience?
Joel Aylor:Well, simple cliche answer is just to feel connected to somebody, but it sometimes I think is is deeper than that or a little more subtle than that. So unity and relationship means that I kind of stop relating to the the version of the other person that my mind has constructed. Some, you know, separation happens not between two people, but between a person and the story I have about them, my expectations of them, my relationships can get difficult when I'm no longer in contact with just that person as a living being and where they are and who they are. When I start connecting with my assumptions or my expectations or or things like that, then then the separation can kinda sneak in. So unity is just basically to learn how to let go of those things in the mind and just truly see the person for who they are.
Joel Aylor:So
Purna Devi:You know, that makes me think of something Thich Nhat Hanh calls the suchness of someone. So I actually wanna flip that upside down and say, I can see all those things about you and about myself and hold us both in the suchness of ourself. So I can take the good with the bad. It's easy to feel in unity when we're aligned when we agree when we're on vacation, and things are feeling good. Right?
Purna Devi:Can I be in unity with myself and not abandon my own sense of divinity and self, and also not abandon you when you're in that suchness, when you are in your own garbage, in your own mess, and our expectations or our nervous systems are seeking safety and they're butting up against one another? That's unity for me. And it's not a you know, it's an easy concept, but it's difficult in practice, I think, because we do carry so much unconscious patterning into our relationships. Those are the containers where we really work the mess out. Right?
Jeffrey Aylor:So, Joel said, there's so many stories we create, not only about the other person but even ourselves, that it's difficult sometimes to overcome that and see beyond what is obvious.
Sherri Keys:Oh, no fair. I mean, I've got to follow you guys, all of you teachers, spiritual healers, you know, scholars in your own right. This is rough, man. So I guess for me, unity means I had to start within. I had to figure out for myself, I needed to have a spiritual unity.
Sherri Keys:So for me, kind of look at it internally first, and that connection that, you know, I have with God, my faith, and allow that to guide me. And again, it's never always a perfect conversation and I'm always, you know, having to be pulled back to understand really what that means and how that should guide me in my actions and my relationships. And so, yeah, it's me living through that journey of understanding my spiritual relationship and how that really is a reflection of who I am and how I interact and engage in my relationships with others Allows me to see them very pure.
Jeffrey Aylor:That's beautiful. You know, you and I have a lot of deep conversations about this topic and the different relationships we have with family or people around us that are close. I know for me, this whole concept is growing around the concept of what I call sacred vision, And I go to my Christian background in scriptures to talk about this a lot in that, you know, Jesus was one of those people that exhibited the ability to not just look at the outward appearance of people. He could see beyond what was obvious with his eyes, and he could see what was on the inside of that person. And he would tell you, he said, you know, don't judge based on the outward appearance, judge on the inner heart, the inner condition of the heart.
Jeffrey Aylor:And we know if what we believe is true that at the core we are all divine. We all are from the same divine source, and within us there is no difference. The hard part is we have eyes and we have ears, and we have senses that pick up on the things that people do or the things that people say, and we can't look beyond that in so many cases to be able to love them unconditionally. And this is this topic will ultimately lead us into the next season of of this podcast and and the Awakening podcast on unconditional love, which to me is just how can you have unity and relationship if if everything is so conditional, and everything and your love is conditional, and and all you do is is react to different things that people say and do versus stop, think in the space between, and respond more effectively and more efficiently, I think, to the things that we experience, and we all experience, and I hope that we can talk about it. I mean, obviously, we're not going to get too intimate or too specific about experiences that we have, but the fact is is we all have them.
Jeffrey Aylor:There are there are just some people that you come in contact with that are gonna challenge you in some fashion or form. And in many cases, I think we we pick to be around some of these people in our soul contracts because we need them to challenge us. We need them to push us a little bit and to to help us maintain some sense of reality and humility in our life and in our experience. So with that, let's jump into the reflection questions for today. We're going to touch on a number of things, which I think is going to be just a beautiful conversation.
Jeffrey Aylor:And to start with, I want us to look at relationships as mirrors. How is a relationship a mirror? How have relationships reflected parts of yourself that you may not have seen otherwise.
Joel Aylor:Relationships as mirrors, basically, they kind of show you the areas you need to focus on or areas you need to work on, I feel. They don't just mirror your wounds, though. Sometimes they actually mirror, you know, strategies and mechanisms and how we handle certain situations or certain triggers. They kind of reveal how we how we protect ourselves, how we seek validation, how we avoid being vulnerable, how we manage the perception of ourselves or our relationships to each other or as a family unit, things like that. So I often look for those moments where I feel triggered or where wanna know why am I seeing this?
Joel Aylor:How are they reflecting back? Something that I need to work through. And I can tell you as a as a parent, that happens quite often. My my and and and that's why we say our our children are our greatest teachers. They they've taught me so much, and I but I've I've had a lot of experience now with with my three children to to to learn patience, to, you know, kinda be curious on how they how they interpret the world to help them through it.
Joel Aylor:There's any number of things in in those, you know, parent child relationships, but even spouses are very, very big mirrors. And and I've had lots of experience with with my wife, the good and the bad, and we really have worked through a lot of things to see since we were at today. So, yeah, the the people who you're closest to are definitely mirrors and and kinda show you the areas you need to work on and also just the areas where yeah. Basically, just what the areas you need to work on. You
Purna Devi:know, I think sometimes it seems contrary that we would take our unresolved parts of us out on the people we love the most. But it's because we feel the safest in those containers to act out those unresolved parts, those younger parts of us, those unconscious parts of us that are trying to stay safe, those parts of us that don't feel chosen or feel loved or feel seen or feel heard or whatever the story is subconsciously, right, that we may be acting out of in that unresolved way, we tend to dump that into the container of those relationships where we actually do feel the safest, because they're not going to leave. They love us, we love them. And so what we often find then is, you know, a bit of that dueling banjo of unresolved parts. And I think, you know, going back to the the topic of this entire conversation is, can I stay unified, right, as a team with this person when things aren't going well, when my unresolved parts are at the table and their unresolved parts are at the table?
Purna Devi:Do I have the window of capacity and of love, to not abandon myself, to not abandon them, to be able to develop the tools. Some of us don't have, right, these things modeled for us when we were children, or maybe we haven't developed the emotional intelligence or the relational intelligence. And so if you can see what's going on, if you can begin to develop the skills to make it not you verse me, but okay, we can see the unresolved situation, the unresolved part, let's see what need is seeking to be met, and let's come together as a team and work through this together and develop the skills. Right?
Jeffrey Aylor:You know, it is not easy. Relationships are not easy. And a lot of people, instead of doing what's right, they do what's easy.
Purna Devi:Yeah. What's most familiar.
Jeffrey Aylor:Right. Or yeah, and they just, you know, instead of taking the time to better understand the circumstance that they're in with an individual and and and or that they're dealing with you. Maybe you are the one that's going through something that they have to deal with, which happens, you know. It's just giving each other, and this is what I love about this podcast. I love the name of it.
Jeffrey Aylor:It's called the space between. Are you just gonna react, or are you gonna take the time to process it and and use your emotional intelligence, use your relational intelligence to respond, not just react, respond in an appropriate way.
Sherri Keys:Obviously relationships are very hard, and so I have to agree, like you tend to take, you know, your frustrations or areas that you need to grow internally out on your family or people that you love, because it goes back to that understanding that love is unconditional. So, you know, I can do this and my family is going to give me grace because they love me, you know, frustrated. I also think that you find where that mirror, not only in the immediate relationship that you're engaging in, but sometimes people outside that are close to that person also bring you an awareness as well. I remember thinking that being frustrated in a space where I felt like, you know, I just don't feel like you're, you know, there for me in the way that I need to be. I need that, right?
Sherri Keys:Need you to be in that space. But it wasn't until I had an opportunity to understand more about the space that I thought was mine, but is really being shared from that person to other people and the benefit in which that steering of that space gave them. And then for me, it was an awareness that, you know, that sacrifice that I felt like I was being deprived of was actually driving probably a greater benefit than I even knew. So sometimes stepping back and seeing that situation or that mirror, that relationship, that issue, that opportunity doesn't always show itself through that immediate person. It might also be what you see from people around that person as well.
Jeffrey Aylor:You know, typically when I look in the mirror, I see myself. And when I'm looking at somebody else in a relationship, I'm really looking at myself. They're reflecting myself back to me, and there's something about what they're showing me about myself. In fact, I I think one of the questions that I'm learning to ask first in a situation where I may be having a difficult time with somebody is, okay, isn't this interesting? Isn't this interesting?
Jeffrey Aylor:What am I supposed to learn about myself and about what what are they trying to pull out of me? What are they what is that behavior telling me about myself, and why I'm responding or thinking the way I'm thinking right now about the circumstance we're dealing with. And that tends to depersonalize, and it deescalates, you know, if there is tension or conflict in it opens me up, and I can tell you I wasn't that way. I wasn't that way when I was younger. I would, as most of us do, respond in like if I had a harsh reaction from somebody, I would respond harshly back, and then you end up in this snowball of behavior where I believe soft answers turn away wrath.
Jeffrey Aylor:They turn away that that anger or whatever the negative feeling is you might have in reaction to what someone's saying or what someone's doing. But if we are if we are unity, and if we are one, when I look at someone else I'm actually looking at myself. And I think when you can take that from your head into your heart, and it actually changes how you live and how you see and how you think about other people. And and this this life is a school. This life is about learning.
Jeffrey Aylor:All these experiences, none of them are by chance. They're all on purpose. Every one of them has value and meaning, and they all contribute to our growth and our development, if we'll let them, if we'll allow them to do that. And that leads me to the next wonderful question about triggers and growth. So when we feel triggered in relationships, what what's actually going on underneath the surface of that?
Joel Aylor:Well, this one's timely because I I came in You
Jeffrey Aylor:walked in.
Joel Aylor:I walked in this morning after having being triggered. So so I I had seen a quote actually about triggers in this space, and it was more, you know, psychological, neurological explanation of it. And it's almost like a trigger is usually the nervous system collapsing time. And it's something small in the present that gets linked to something unresolved from the past, and suddenly the reaction becomes larger than the moment itself. And I thought that was really well said, and and it really helps me understand a trigger and what it's what it's doing.
Joel Aylor:It's bringing out something in me that is either unresolved or I need to actually focus on and pay attention to. I need to learn how to handle this type of situation or how this makes me feel in a different way. It's and I'm gonna continue to see it over and over until I start start to learn how to handle it. So to to explain my trigger this morning, my my 18 year old son has my has my previous car, and it's still a relatively new car. And you know how risky that is to give a a young driver a decent vehicle.
Joel Aylor:He managed to, this morning, park too far over top of a curb and pull back off that curb and almost rip off his front bumper. So in me, my immediate reaction was wanting to, you know, be extremely angry, and I and I didn't say anything extremely mean. I kind of, you know, asked him a question, you know, you know, when are we gonna start taking care of our things? Because this is unfortunately the not the first time he's damaged a vehicle. But with my son, he's when you say you you look at somebody and you see yourself, in this case, I don't I don't know I don't necessarily it's it's almost I see the other side of me.
Joel Aylor:Not necessarily me as myself, but I see basically almost like the yin and the yang. I I I know who I know myself pretty well. I know internally who I am, how I process things, how I see the world. And I look at my son, and and I almost see the opposite of me. And that's that's, you know, that could be useful and helpful as well.
Joel Aylor:Because in this world, I I I'm very aware of my surroundings. I'm aware of everything going on in the world and around my life, around in in my internal world as well. I'm aware of those things where my son, not so much. He's he he does not tend to be aware of anything around him. He's kind of in his own little world.
Joel Aylor:He doesn't fully understand that little inner inner world. He knows who he is, which is a good thing, but he struggles to to, you know, do things in this world easily. So almost it's almost like I'm looking at the opposite of myself because we process this this world that we're we're we're going through so differently. But that's still a valuable lesson for me. I'm just trying my hardest to learn how to see that and learn from it.
Joel Aylor:So how does he see it? Try to understand how he where he's coming from. And and and I'll tell you, it's an absolute struggle because it it to me, it doesn't it doesn't make sense. And and that's hard for me because I'm somebody who likes things to make sense.
Jeffrey Aylor:So Well, lesson there, yeah, the lesson there obviously could be something even patience. You know, maybe maybe patience is something that you are wanting or need to build. And I heard someone the other day make a comment, you know, if you pray for patience, God is not just going to give you patience, he's going to give you situations that make you practice patience,
Joel Aylor:Right? He's not going to give it to you, you got to earn it. You've got to earn it.
Jeffrey Aylor:You've got to develop it, and it takes experiences and practice to do that. And sometimes I think, again, our loved ones a lot of times are the ones that give us the greatest lessons in areas like that. So parenthood. Yeah. It is a wonderful laboratory.
Purna Devi:You know, that quote I say all the time, you pray for patience, God's gonna put your ass in traffic.
Jeffrey Aylor:I love that.
Purna Devi:Right?
Joel Aylor:Well said.
Sherri Keys:Right?
Jeffrey Aylor:Yeah. Now you know what I'm gonna talk about. I was
Joel Aylor:gonna say that's gonna be his that's gonna be
Jeffrey Aylor:Yeah. His
Purna Devi:That's it. That's it a 100%. Right? And, Joel, you know, from one teen parent to another, I often remind myself that my son's frontal lobe is not fully developed. That helps.
Purna Devi:It really does.
Sherri Keys:Yeah. As
Purna Devi:a side note. As a side note.
Joel Aylor:That's a good way of looking at it. Yeah. That kinda helps. Right?
Purna Devi:So when it comes to triggers, I'm actually teaching a course right now called the space, or sorry, the self beyond survival. And it is all about the nervous system and how we get dysregulated, right, aka triggered. Mhmm. And there are three conditions for the nervous system. We've got activation.
Purna Devi:Right? Joel was talking about how he became activated. We also have shut down. We have avoidance. We've got fawning and people pleasing, right?
Purna Devi:Or we've got attempts to control the environment. And then we have connection. That's that unity. And I think when we are triggered, you hit the nail on the head, right? We are not necessarily always responding to what's going on in front of us.
Purna Devi:But we're responding to a part of us, to something that isn't necessarily happening in the present, but something that is going on within us that that situation reminds us of. And I think if we are looking at, okay, how am I triggered? What is this triggering within me? I can begin to take my power back, right? A lot of us feel very much like we are a slave to our nervous system, because the body responds a lot quicker than the mind can make up a story.
Purna Devi:Right? The mind is, you know, miles down the road or the body rather is miles down the road in having this physiological, right, somatic embodied experience before our mind can start to tell a story about the way we're feeling. And so if we can begin to slow the process down, and that usually happens when we're not triggered. Right? When I'm triggered, I'm not gonna be my best self.
Purna Devi:I'm not my most conscious, self reflective version that is like, okay. Let me slow down and and inquire why is this. Right? And Jeff, like you said, it's taken you years to develop that ability to become the witness of oneself, and it tends to happen when we're not in those triggered containers. And then those triggered moments are the real game.
Purna Devi:Those are the big game for us to then practice and stumble forward and mess up and make mistakes and have grace for everyone involved, right, as we as we learn and grow. And I also think about being triggered, there's a need that's not being met. And so when I ask that question, what need is not being met within myself that allowed this triggered to be witnessed. That's a gift. It's an opportunity.
Purna Devi:So then I can go back and I can connect with myself and say, okay, how can I meet that need? Or how can I seek support in meeting that need so I feel less activated through that old unresolved part of myself? And remembering that our their frontal lobes are not developed.
Jeffrey Aylor:Underline. Let's underline that.
Purna Devi:Yeah. Yeah.
Jeffrey Aylor:That's really an important
Purna Devi:Parents that are listening, remember that fact because that's an important fact.
Sherri Keys:Man, you know what, guys? I was I had so many triggers yesterday. I was just like, Sherry, go stand in the grass. And I'm like, you know what? No, you just need to roll around in the grass.
Sherri Keys:You just, you need to be grounded.
Jeffrey Aylor:Get yourself grounded.
Sherri Keys:Get myself yourself grounded.
Purna Devi:In there.
Sherri Keys:Oh my gosh. But yeah, it's interesting. So triggers on different fronts. When you get triggered by someone, you know, your family, then you're exercising that unconditional love, right? So you kind of know you hit that trigger, it kind of takes its course.
Sherri Keys:And then, you know, then I take that moment and I'm like, wow, like the thing that I was triggered about was that really it? And most likely is not. Like, I'm in the middle of planning a wedding for my beautiful daughter that has met and exceeded everything that I could, we could ever ask her to do in life. But weddings are a thing, right? It's just, man, it's an emotional roller coaster.
Sherri Keys:And I just remember like, you know, something small yesterday and we just kind of like, we were hitting, you know, just different levels of everything in that small conversation. But when I stepped back from it, and again, she's like, my daughter is like, oh my gosh, just the biggest heart. Like you could just, it's so ridiculous how, you know, loving and just she's just there. But when I step back and I think about kind of that trigger, I think the trigger was really mom just not wanting to let go, realizing that here's another move in life and that, you know, I've got to let her fly. But it was so hard, you know, it's like I'm still trying to hold on.
Sherri Keys:So there was that trigger. And then that, the way I deal with that is so much different than like a professional trigger. I'll get triggered and I just walk away and give myself thought and think through it. And then I start understanding more about giving that person grace, because maybe the thing that triggered me might have been a reflection of other things that might have been going on in that person's life or that space, or even I'm bringing energy. And I find that when I walk away from it, and come back to it, and I've learned that through wisdom, that I'm able to approach things differently with a clearer mind and a better understanding.
Sherri Keys:So, yeah. And then of course, rolling out rolling around on the grass also helps. Just So saying for those listeners, it's really a good thing.
Jeffrey Aylor:All right. So since the topic of traffic came up, being somebody who is an expert at systems and flow and motion and movement, traffic is an absolute nightmare for me. And when you think about it, driving is all about relationship. It's about what is happening around you, and who is doing what around you, and how are people responding and reacting around you, and what you're doing, and what they're doing. And for me, it's all about paying attention.
Jeffrey Aylor:What I find is what triggers me in traffic is people are not they're not paying attention. And this was ingrained in me back in my military training about movement. We would get in so much trouble when we're marching if we didn't all start at the exact same time. Because when you don't, you get what's called the accordion effect. People wait to move when the person in front of them moves, and then all of a sudden you've got gaps and breaks in in the flow of the the unit.
Jeffrey Aylor:We were called a unit. So think about this. Just just I love this because all of my experience in life has led me to understand this in a deep way. A unit is a is a group of people that you are in relationship with. You are unified as one organization, and marching in the military was designed for us to learn to move as a unit, not as an individual, move as a unit.
Jeffrey Aylor:You had to do it together, and when you didn't, we got in so much trouble. And I think that psychologically I have never gotten over this. It triggers in me this emotional experience when people are just not paying attention and movement isn't flowing and it's not unified. Okay, the first step to recovery is to acknowledge I had that problem, and now and my wife is really good about pointing it out to me, because there are many times that I get triggered. I don't get upset quickly or very often, but that that has, and she'll like, what are you so upset about?
Jeffrey Aylor:She points it out, and and that's why God gave her to me to do that. I'm confident that that's a big part of our relationship with each other. So but it applies, you know, the traffic example applies to everything. How are we moving? Are we moving in in in in unison with one another?
Jeffrey Aylor:Are we are we getting in each other's way and creating conflict? Are we creating friction? Or is there delay that's not necessary when we think that we should be further than where we are. I know one of the things I'm learning about time, and this is what I loved about our last episode, is that universe's timing is perfect. And to let yourself understand that and give yourself over to that, it brings so much peace and grace and to know that you're not behind, you're not delayed, you're exactly where you're supposed to be.
Jeffrey Aylor:If anything, you may be being protected from something. So don't fight. You know, quit fighting. We all want and and and we're gonna touch on this in one of the later questions, but the fact is is it's all about control. I want to be in control.
Jeffrey Aylor:I want to be in control of how you drive. I want to be in control of how I drive. I want to be in control of all these things, and that creates internal issues. And so I've started breathing. When I get in a situation like that, one of the first things I start doing is I'm gonna start breathing.
Jeffrey Aylor:I've taught myself this, when I start to feel it coming, because I can, I start breathing, and it's amazing how I could okay? Yes. Click a little bit. But in order for me to unify with someone else, I have to be in unity with myself. You can't you know, relationships are difficult because if two people are not unified within themselves, how in the world are they going to unify with each other?
Jeffrey Aylor:No wonder relationships are so difficult. No wonder they're so difficult.
Joel Aylor:And I can say, being your son, I got a little bit of that
Jeffrey Aylor:trigger I am so sorry.
Joel Aylor:Graphic. So I know you I'm sure you've dealt with many many patients where they deal with the parents, you know, trauma or triggers.
Purna Devi:I'll see you after the show.
Joel Aylor:Right. I
Jeffrey Aylor:had that he has he has things he can help with.
Joel Aylor:I had initially had that same reaction in traffic, but I actually took the time to learn how to do that same thing years ago to kinda let go. I do still have times where I get triggered or get frustrated, but I I had I I I learned I I actually could tell. I'm like, why am I acting this way? And I realized, where did it come from?
Jeffrey Aylor:Oh gosh. I know, hey.
Joel Aylor:I can I can I can heal this? We can we can we can move past this. But I was
Jeffrey Aylor:hoping what you would really say is, yes, dad. You very rarely get upset about anything.
Joel Aylor:No. You do. You're you're you're getting much better. You still I I still see it, but it it it happened occasionally. But you're doing better.
Joel Aylor:Absolutely.
Purna Devi:Well If I may make one comment.
Jeffrey Aylor:Sure.
Purna Devi:This also reminds me of I I'm finishing up a book club, and we've been reading Zen master Thich Nhat Hanh's Pieces Every Step.
Jeffrey Aylor:Mhmm.
Purna Devi:He would say that this is an opportunity, what he calls the bell of mindfulness. There's a story he tells in the book about Toronto traffic, and somebody getting really frustrated in traffic and constant brake lights. Right? And I can't remember what the message on the Canadian license plate is. And it was something really like peace inspiring.
Purna Devi:But he said, every time you see those brake lights, that is your reminder, your bell of mindfulness to pause, to breathe, to say breathing in, I am present, breathing out, I smile, or something really uplifting in that way. So another way to utilize that frustrating traffic where we feel very out of control.
Jeffrey Aylor:This is why I do the chanting when I'm driving. So, Purna Tatas, chant or in Reiki chant, and I find it to be very peaceful when I'm driving to do that, and it causes me, you know, today and of course in Japanese, you know, it's in Japanese, but, you know, today I do not anger, today I do not worry, I'm going to practice diligently this, right? And that's you know, so I find that when I do that, especially in the morning when I'm driving to work, I'll chant and it's wonderful and it helps me. So thank you, thank you for teaching me that.
Purna Devi:Alright. Give thanks to the masters and the teachers that gave those gifts of wisdom to us.
Jeffrey Aylor:Oh, love those nuggets. So let's talk about listening versus reacting. We're gonna this is is something we've been talking quite a bit about, and that's what this whole podcast is really built around is taking the time to not just react, just actually listen, to contemplate, to think, to reason. So what does it mean to truly listen to someone rather than spending your time preparing a response?
Joel Aylor:Well, kind of took that right out of my mouth there. Basically, true listening is being fully present and and actually absorbing everything the person is presenting. Because otherwise, you know, you're just basically having them you're you're creating a story inside your head, creating your response. How am I gonna say this? How am I gonna, you know, either help them, teach them, whatever?
Joel Aylor:And and so, basically, learning how to truly listen to somebody is it takes time, and is an art and sometimes but it requires you to be fully present with within yourself too in order to be able to be fully present for them.
Purna Devi:Yeah. When I think of listening versus reacting, I think of something you said earlier about, right, the name of this, the space between. And it makes me think of something I had a trauma teacher talk about years ago about how neurons fire, right? And so between stimulus and response, there is a space. There is the space between those, and it's called the synaptic connection.
Purna Devi:Right? So neuron and neuron, they want to touch in that synaptic space to create a response or a reaction. And so my teacher called that sitting in the synapse.
Sherri Keys:Right?
Purna Devi:So am I able to sit in a regulated state? That doesn't mean I am listening to fix. That doesn't mean I'm listening to agree. That doesn't mean I am listening to defend or right? Like like Joe said, I'm not preparing a response.
Purna Devi:When I think about active listening, I think about space holdership. I think about sitting in that synaptic space, witnessing and allowing that person to have their reality without me trying to change it or control it.
Jeffrey Aylor:That's awesome. You know, an Organizational Development Consultant, one of the key areas that we were trained in is in communication. And as simple as the communication model is, think about it, right? You have a sender, you have a means, and you have a receiver. If any one of those things are missing, you don't have communication.
Purna Devi:Yeah.
Jeffrey Aylor:And as soon as you stop listening or receiving, you're no longer communicating at that point. It stops. Now you've got noise going on, right, and you're not actually listening. And there's so many great ways to apply that model in every aspect of our life. That model, again, it's one of those things, some of the things in life that are the most important are so simple.
Jeffrey Aylor:They're not easy. It is not easy. And So Sherry probably has some stories about times where we have communication. That is my a challenge.
Sherri Keys:It's huge challenge, especially in our profession. Just want to say that it's so difficult that communication part of it, especially as a parent, and it's generational, right? Growing up, you're taught like your kids are seen not heard. And so I spent areas in my childhood where, you know, you're just, you're there and your parents are pretty much coaching and mentoring guiding and pretty, you know, that's what you did. And so there's so many variables that kind of make up who we are and how we communicate based off experiences that we had in life.
Sherri Keys:And I'm learning and growing in that space. And the trigger recently allowed me to understand that my issue is control. My issue is in that space. I'm trying to control the dialogue. I'm trying to fit, you know, what I want into a space that, you know, is really not about me.
Sherri Keys:And I needed to understand and spend more time listening and being aware and hearing that voice. And I will say that it's a journey. I'm learning awareness in it. And it's only, again, it's only in the family side because you know the family side is where you've got that unconditional love. But it makes it very difficult to flip off or turn off, you know, what I've grown to understand as parenting, which from my past has been around kind of controlled dialogue to, hey, you know, you know, you got to take a different kind of role in this, and allow that other person to grow and have their voice.
Sherri Keys:And so for me, you know, that was my mere moment this weekend.
Jeffrey Aylor:So Bernie, you use the term active listening. And we use that, we teach that a lot in our work, especially when we are training new managers, new people that are going into positions of leadership. But I'm going to tell you that people don't respond to active listening well. So, you know, the question is, what does it mean to truly listen to someone? Well, if you are actually practicing active listening, it has a tendency to make people uncomfortable.
Jeffrey Aylor:They're not used to being listened to. They're not used to having someone giving them eye contact and paying direct attention to what they're saying and processing not only their words, but as most anyone who knows communication knows, the vast majority of communication is nonverbal. And when I'm watching somebody and I'm watching their their nonverbals or their responses that to things that are being said, that makes them it's almost as though you're looking through them and they don't like that. It makes them uncomfortable. I actually, Sherry will tell you, I've actually had people in a business environment say, why are you looking at me?
Jeffrey Aylor:And I would just stop and say, I'm listening. I'm listening to you. I'm actively listening, and I'm also watching. Because I want to I want to ensure that what I'm hearing and what I'm seeing are congruent with each other, that they they are harmony. Because I can tell if what you're saying isn't honest by your body language.
Jeffrey Aylor:And but that that that kind of I'm gonna call that again sacred listening, x-ray vision, looking beyond the obvious, seeing inside what the intent is behind someone's words or their thoughts, that makes people very uncomfortable. And then, oh, watch how fast the defenses go up. And, you know, and and it can actually put you in a position. And and and I think this this kind of touches on something I want to hope would come out in our conversation today, is what makes a lot of this more difficult in relationship is we are all in different places. Different places in our life, whether it's age, experience, or understanding, or knowledge, and I think what causes conflict a lot of times is when I expect you to think the way I think.
Jeffrey Aylor:I think you think the way I think. Well, and maybe that's not true. And and my way is the way, it's not just a way. And wanting to be right, I have to be right. Right?
Jeffrey Aylor:So how many how many issues arise in relationship because you have to be right. Well, you know what? We don't have to always be right.
Joel Aylor:Well, as soon as curiosity becomes, you know, conclusion, like, you basically know the answer, you've now created a separate a separation between the two of you.
Jeffrey Aylor:Yep. You
Purna Devi:know, we call this dialectical tension. I'm glad that you mentioned this because I wanted to say, right, we bring our collection of experiences to the conversation, and we're all filtering and processing information through that unique lens of experience. Right? And so I could say, the color red. And maybe Joel is think or I could say red.
Purna Devi:Right? And maybe Joel is thinking of the color. Maybe Jeff is thinking about when he got angry in traffic. Maybe Sherry is thinking of, you know, the floral arrangement at
Jeffrey Aylor:her
Purna Devi:daughter's upcoming wedding. And so that very simple example really, I think illustrates the differences in the way we take in what is even being said in the first place. So I think part of active listening is that mirroring to understand. Right? Oh, I hear blah, blah, blah.
Purna Devi:Is that correct?
Jeffrey Aylor:Right.
Purna Devi:I heard you say this. Is this what you mean? I want to understand you. And I think those little key phrases can help folks because we all want the same thing. Regardless of our personal collected experiences, we all want to be seen.
Purna Devi:We want to feel heard. We want to be understood. We all desire that, especially from the people that we're in closest relationship with. Right?
Jeffrey Aylor:Well, and you can shut someone down in a heartbeat by just not you dismiss them. Basically, you're dismissing what they think and feel as though it's not valid and because it's maybe not what you think or what you feel. As a facilitator, that's probably one of the greatest things they taught us was to you never dismiss. I will even in many cases paraphrase people. I will put exactly what they say down.
Jeffrey Aylor:I will write down exactly what they say, and I will ensure it's exactly what they said. I'll ask them, is this is this what you said? Yes. Okay. Because if I were to change it, I'm now putting my own interpretation on what they said, And you can and and people will shut off.
Jeffrey Aylor:They'll shut down. They won't talk. They won't. Again, as as easy as communication is as a model, it is probably the single most difficult thing we as humans do. And and I think there's there's there's reasons for that.
Jeffrey Aylor:You think about the language. Trying to interpret different languages when you don't have words in this language that that match a word in this language. How do you and no wonder there's confusion. No wonder there's and and it but in I believe, and this is just again, this is what I love about the telepathy tapes. I believe pure communication is is direct.
Jeffrey Aylor:It's more symbolic than it is words because words are limiting. Totally limiting. Right? So but again, the whole idea though is we probably should spend less time talking and more time listening, and that's something I think a lot of us struggle. People struggle with silence.
Jeffrey Aylor:This is the other one I love to talk about when we talk about this. The space between indicates you may not be talking, And in that silence people struggle. They struggle with thinking and processing, because it hurts in some cases. It's painful.
Joel Aylor:It makes them feel vulnerable. Silence can make them feel vulnerable.
Jeffrey Aylor:Well, especially if part of the part of what's coming out is your own shadow. It's that stuff that's buried deep inside that you just don't want to deal with and think about and and yet it's getting pulled to the surface. Right? Getting pulled right out to the surface.
Sherri Keys:I just had a really quick comment.
Jeffrey Aylor:Oh, go ahead.
Sherri Keys:I was just saying that I feel that so personally, you know, I deal with communication differently. Professionally, I find myself just pulling the practices that we do in continuous improvement. So I'm always going to like try to read the room, I'm going to try to do stakeholder analysis, I'm going you know, try to do more listening. And we'll have to do more listening because the people on the other side have the knowledge because they're closer to that process or thing that are driving the value. And so I think it's, you learn by listening.
Sherri Keys:So it's, me, some of those practices, which is kind of odd, because we're always trained that, you know, we're whatever we're learning from a continuous improvement where, you know, it's a principle of how we execute things in our entire lives. But for me, I find it very different when I'm trying to transition some of those practices of listening, you know, into my own personal relationships, if that makes sense. I don't know if that's
Jeffrey Aylor:It does. Absolutely it does. It does. And I think one of the things about training that we have done professionally is that so many people see the application of it personally. Yeah.
Jeffrey Aylor:Right? Now I'm gonna flip that around because I think what Perna does is she teaches people more about how to deal with things personally. And I think you can take that and turn it into your professional life. Right? Which it's beautiful to me.
Jeffrey Aylor:None of this and I spiritualize everything. Everything. Every circumstance. Every situation, whether it's work, home, whatever, I just spiritualize everything. That's just who I am.
Jeffrey Aylor:It makes things more interesting. So let's touch on this final reflection question before we bring our conversation to a close, and that is how do we love without control? This is one I really wanna touch on. What does it mean to love someone without trying to change or control them? This is a big one.
Joel Aylor:I think a lot of it is, you know, stems from our egos, and we want to you know, that control component has an element of fear to it. We we wanna try to help them. We wanna try to advise them, protect them, correct them. But underneath it, it can be just our own anxieties about listening to what they're going through. And and I I'm guilty of that.
Joel Aylor:I I I mean, I when I am listening to say my wife talking about an issue that she's dealing with, I'm I'm processing it through my own experience, and it doesn't always help her because I'm not seeing it the same way she sees it. I'm not feeling it the same way she's feeling it. And that can you know, I'm trying to can help protect her or advise her in this situation or in in in my own way, I'm trying to control the situation instead of just being there in that space. So, yeah, control control can really kinda kill a relationship if you're not careful because, you know, they're not looking for it to be controlled. They're looking for you to understand where they are and feel validated in their feelings and that they're doing things the best they can, and they just want somebody to share that with.
Purna Devi:Well, I often think of the converse when you ask these questions. Right? And so what does love with control look like? And why is one controlling? Right?
Purna Devi:Because I think control often masquerades as love.
Jeffrey Aylor:Mhmm. Yeah.
Purna Devi:And if I am loving, if I'm performing love through a filter of control, I'm afraid of something. Right? And what am I afraid of? There's a lack of security. There's a lack of security within myself.
Purna Devi:And so I'm attempting to fix or manage or over give or compensate because I'm seeking an internal safety, right, unconsciously usually. And then trying to create an environment where that unconscious need, that fear is being met. And that is a slippery slope. Right? And so I think to answer them directly, loving without control means letting people be who they are beyond my expectations, beyond my unresolved patterns, while also staying rooted in who I am while I work on those things.
Purna Devi:Right? And so I think I used to very much exhibit control masquerading as love. Right? There was a level of insecurity and separation internally. And so I would try to control, and I would want that person to choose me so I felt chosen and safe and loved.
Purna Devi:And now because I can reside in my wholeness and my own fullness, and I have a sense of internalized stability and groundedness and security, I'm not seeking that externally anymore. I'm also not seeking to control others. Right? I'm asking, does this feel safe for me? Does this feel aligned for me?
Purna Devi:Not, will this person love me? Will this person choose me? Or how can I over give or manage the situation so they don't leave? Right?
Jeffrey Aylor:Oh, yeah. Yeah. You know, I've this week been thinking quite a bit about the fact that when, you know, two people in many cases get into that relationship because one is seeking the other to fulfill something that's lacking within them.
Purna Devi:Absolutely.
Jeffrey Aylor:As opposed to two whole beings coming together and being and having love for each other as an overflow beyond the love they have for themselves because they trust and they know themselves to be whole, that love then is not required to fulfill the other person. So you have to if someone is fulfilling you, you've got to control that, or because if it goes away all of a sudden you're not full anymore, you're not fulfilled, and that's a threat. Right? It's a threat to you. It's not it has nothing to do with them in so many cases, and that to me is sad.
Jeffrey Aylor:How do we develop that ability to be whole, complete? In some cases, I think one of the best things you can say to someone you love is I really don't need you. I don't need you. I want you, and I love you. But I don't need you.
Jeffrey Aylor:I don't need you to do things for me to make me be whole. I don't need that. I don't want to put that pressure on you. I don't want to create that requirement because then I have reason to be upset if you can't provide that.
Purna Devi:Well, I think our culture perpetuates this codependent dynamic in relationships. Right? She's my other half. I'm seeking my other half. Oh, he makes me so happy.
Purna Devi:My better half. I'm not a half seeking my other half.
Jeffrey Aylor:Right.
Purna Devi:If our culture, if our relationship models, perpetuated the idea of coming into one's fullness and then moving about the world with that intact, oh my gosh, what, you know, type of healthier relationships we would find ourselves in.
Jeffrey Aylor:I'm finding that it's it's okay. It's it's not my job to fix you. I love you. I care about you, but you also have free will, and you're here to learn your lessons, and you're here to have your experiences. And when you make decisions, okay, you made that decision.
Jeffrey Aylor:Live with you. You're gonna live with that, and that's okay. It's okay for people to make bad decisions and have to learn from them and go through and and we think about we think about so many of the narcissism. Isn't this really what narcissism is about? You know, in many cases, you're you're seeking because you're not complete, you're seeking your completeness in other people, and you control them and manipulate them to get what you need from them, And very often give nothing in return.
Jeffrey Aylor:Right? It's all take in most cases. Alright, Sherry, with that, there you go. You're up next.
Sherri Keys:Wow. Thanks, Jeff. Throw that ball to me. You know, so I would agree, like just in terms of just communicating to the group, you know, kind of the triggers that I've been kind of walking through. And for a lot of reasons that, you know, that love and control kind of equaled each other.
Sherri Keys:And the control part was me feeling like I just want to protect
Joel Aylor:you
Sherri Keys:because that's all I've ever done, right? You feel like that is the role of parenting, is trying to do that as best you can, understanding that you really have no control over anything, right? But I had to come to a realization that, you know, whatever decisions that you make, right, wrong, indifferent, and hopefully they're all great decisions, but hopefully some of them are not because that's how you have to learn. That's how you had to grow. We did it.
Sherri Keys:Why would it not be fair for you to have to go through that as well? And I tell you, was, that has been a hard one this week. And just to feel like I need to step away from the space because, and you know, and realize that for me, I had to grow and understanding that I have to let go and allow, in this case, my daughter to grow in her new stage in her life. And that was really hard. But it was good for me to understand that really I'm the, I'm my own roadblock.
Sherri Keys:And it's time for me to figure out a better way to parent in that space where I'm giving, you know, removing myself in that level of control, and working on that internally, because that's, you know, because I love her beyond just me trying to, in my mind, prevent something because I don't know why I think I'm just all wise, but you know, I need to grow in that space as well.
Jeffrey Aylor:Well, fact that you're open to continued learning, even at where we are in our life, at our age and experience, I probably have gone through some of the most profound and significant learning in the last maybe five years that I have in all my years, I have a lifetime yet to learn and grow. And I'm coming to the conclusion that we really are confronted every day and in every circumstance with a simple question. Am I going to choose love or am I going to choose fear? Control is motivated by fear, not love, and that's a tough pill to swallow because I think I'm loving someone as I'm trying to control them, but it's really I'm afraid, kind of a and I think that really is the that's where we are, and that's what the purpose of this work is, is to help the people around us that we're in relationship with see that every time we're in a circumstance we have a choice to make. Are we going to choose love or are we going to choose fear?
Jeffrey Aylor:I mean, that's the whole concept that Neil Dono Walsh talks about, right, in the conversations. I don't know if you're familiar with the Conversations with God books, but just fascinating that it's something that simple. And and and love in Christian scripture says perfect love drives out fear. They're mutually exclusive. They're poles.
Jeffrey Aylor:Right? They're they're part of the hermetic polarity. They're they're they're they're two extremes of the same thing, and so I do believe that it's hard when you when you when you think you love someone, you you do want to protect them. You do want to be their savior. And this is especially the masculine element versus the feminine element, I think, in these relationships is that, you know, all men want to do is protect and be the savior and be the right.
Jeffrey Aylor:And so I think that that's it's natural. It's natural for us to think that control is love, and it's not. So I'm gonna go ahead and transition here a little bit. I would just Perna, I wanna take some time with you specifically and your work that you do with your your clients, your people, and what do you see as some of the most common patterns that are causing or creating this disconnection in relationship?
Purna Devi:You know, I really it always goes back to childhood programs. It really does. And that feels a little cliche and simple to say, but after doing this work for so many years, you know, we do a lot of parts work. And again, we bring to the table that part of us that, has a need that's unmet, that maybe had a parent that didn't listen to them or right? Like Sherry said, right, we grow up with these, you know, children are seen and not heard or, you know, whatever.
Purna Devi:So it could be something as seemingly simple as that statement, or maybe it's you really were neglected or abused, you know, and so we bring these unconscious patternings into our relationships. And so I think the biggest most important thing we can do is continue to notice where we're triggered, not make the other person the enemy, see these opportunities as gifts. Am I allowed to curse
Jeffrey Aylor:Go ahead.
Purna Devi:And offend anyone? Okay. I'm so sorry. Ear muffs, listeners, if this offends you. I had a therapist friend once that and you've I think you've heard me say this, Jeff.
Purna Devi:These moments where we're triggered, where, right, we're having a need that's not met, and where we're trying to control someone in our relationship because we feel out of control internally, these opportunities are AFGOs. Another fucking growth opportunity. Yep. Right? And so Yeah.
Purna Devi:Right? An AFGO. And so that's what I usually say to myself. I'm like, oh, this moment is an opportunity. It's a gift.
Purna Devi:It's an AFGO. Where in my, you know, younger years, I used to maybe dissociate or shut down, right, and lean away from difficult opportunities. You know, the work that I do teaches people a window of capacity to lean in. And the window of capacity means not that everything is perfect, not that I never get triggered, it means I don't self abandon. And so if we're talking about unity in relationship, then it also means I'm not gonna abandon you when things get difficult.
Jeffrey Aylor:So
Purna Devi:I first learn, like you said, it's personal.
Jeffrey Aylor:Mhmm.
Purna Devi:Right? It's micro and macro. So I learn to not abandon my self. I work with my own shadows. We do a lot of shadow work where I've been taught to feel shame or guilt or, you know, some sort of negative, self effacing feeling.
Purna Devi:Because if I feel that way towards other people, I guarantee I'm twice as hard on myself internally.
Jeffrey Aylor:Mhmm.
Purna Devi:I begin that those practices of self love internally to hold myself in those places and meet myself in those uncomfortable places where maybe society or my peer group or religion or whatever that imposing force told me to feel bad. Right? I I begin to love myself there. I can hold myself. I expand that window of capacity, and then I can hold you in that space too.
Jeffrey Aylor:Well, it's beautiful having you here today, and I look forward to having more of these great conversations with you. People can contact you at bernadevi dot com?
Purna Devi:Correct. Yeah.
Jeffrey Aylor:Pornadovy dot com, and I would highly recommend that if you happen to be close to us here, or not even, because you can do remote work.
Purna Devi:And I'm just opening a new office in Centerville, Ohio next week. For those who are local and want to see me in person, yeah, I will have a physical location.
Jeffrey Aylor:Well, we're excited and again look forward to having many more of these conversations with you going forward. So I just want to bring our conversation to a close here by saying that maybe relationships aren't here to complete us. Maybe they're here to reveal who we are, and what we see in someone else often is a reflection, something that is going on inside ourselves. So as we bring the conversation to a close, I think it's always worth remembering that unity is not something that we feel within ourselves only. It's something we have to practice.
Jeffrey Aylor:It's something that we use in how we relate to one another, how we listen, how we respond, how we hold a space for the ability for both of us to connect, right? And we allow for difference. Difference isn't bad. Difference is not bad. Difference is exciting, it's what makes things interesting.
Jeffrey Aylor:Right? So Perna, thank you so much for your obvious and wonderful presence and insight. Joel, Sherry, always thank you for sharing in the conversation. And for those of you that are listening, I hope this episode will cause you to show up just a little bit different in one relationship, just one relationship. If it helps you show up a bit different and a bit more whole and complete, then I think this has been a success.
Jeffrey Aylor:That's usually where unity begins to take form both inside and out. So with that, the space between continues. As we come to a close, remember that this journey continues in many expressions. This podcast is part of a family of partner podcasts. Awakening heaven on earth.
Jeffrey Aylor:The Space Between Heaven and Earth, and Living Heaven on Earth are three companion podcasts exploring spiritual awakening from complementary perspectives. Awakening Heaven on Earth offers the core teachings and mystical reflections on unity, love, and conscious living. The space between creates room for dialogue, reflection, and lived conversation around those teachings. Living Heaven on Earth focuses on basic spiritual practices that help embody these insights in daily life. Together, they form a unified journey of understanding, experience, and integration, inviting listeners to remember their connection with the divine, with one another, and with the living world.
Jeffrey Aylor:You can find all of them available on the same podcast streaming platforms wherever you listen. And if music helps carry these teachings deeper into the heart, The Unity Awakening Heaven on Earth album is available on all major music streaming services as a musical companion to this journey. Wherever you engage, through listening, reflection, conversation, or music. May it gently remind you, you are not separate. You belong to the one life, and heaven is already unfolding within you.
Jeffrey Aylor:Until next time. Walk gently, love deeply, and embody heaven on earth.