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What if every moment of your life was truly yours? In this powerful episode of The Real Retirement Show, we sit down with the legendary George Kinder — father of the life planning movement, mindfulness teacher, and global force for authentic living. With heart, humility, and poetic clarity, George shares how to design a life rooted in freedom, purpose, and presence — and why your dream of living fully can’t wait until retirement. From the serenity of his New England cabin to the bustlin...
Show Notes
What if every moment of your life was truly yours?
In this powerful episode of The Real Retirement Show, we sit down with the legendary George Kinder — father of the life planning movement, mindfulness teacher, and global force for authentic living.
With heart, humility, and poetic clarity, George shares how to design a life rooted in freedom, purpose, and presence — and why your dream of living fully can’t wait until retirement.
From the serenity of his New England cabin to the bustling streets of London, George reveals his journey of awakening, the power behind his EVOKE® process, and why the future of retirement — and humanity — depends on trustworthiness and values-aligned action.
We explore:
- How to uncover your true purpose and make it real
- The three domains of freedom — and why they matter now more than ever
- Why fiduciary duty belongs not just in finance, but in every institution
- How mindfulness and deep listening shape our ability to lead, connect, and transform
Whether you're reimagining your next chapter or simply seeking deeper meaning, this conversation will awaken something in you.
Listen in — and begin the journey to your most meaningful life.
00:00 Introduction to the Three Domains of Freedom
01:35 Welcome to The Real Retirement Show
01:45 Meet George Kinder: Pioneer of Life Planning
02:56 George Kinder's Journey and Philosophy
06:23 The Power of Trustworthiness and Freedom
08:51 Maintaining Passion and Purpose
10:05 The Serenity Cabin and Nature's Influence
13:37 The Three Dimensions of Freedom Workshops
20:57 Global Impact and Cultural Embrace
23:35 Reflections on Age and Passion
25:01 The Evolution of Fiduciary in Business
26:14 Building Trust in Client Relationships
27:06 The Financial Therapy Movement
28:33 The Importance of Trustworthiness
28:42 Kitchen Table Conversations on Fiduciary
30:32 Life Planning for Everyone
31:47 The Role of Trust in Financial Advice
36:46 Humanity and Global Communication
42:10 The Impact of AI on Humanity
44:25 The Future of Fiduciary Standards
46:57 The Three Domains of Freedom
49:35 Closing Thoughts and Future Meetings
About George Kinder
George Kinder is a globally renowned thought leader, author, and mindfulness teacher, widely recognized as the father of the Life Planning movement. He is the founder of the Kinder Institute of Life Planning and creator of the EVOKE® process, which helps individuals align their financial lives with their deepest values and dreams. With over 50 years of mindfulness practice and decades of experience as a financial advisor, George has trained thousands of professionals across 30+ countries to lead with purpose, empathy, and trust. Through his books, teachings, and art, he continues to inspire people around the world to live with greater freedom, authenticity, and meaning.
Website:
https://www.kinderinstitute.com/
Real Retirement Video Podcast: Real Retirement - YouTube
Creators and Guests
What is Real Retirement?
Welcome to "Real Retirement," a groundbreaking podcast where your hosts, Yasmin Nguyen and Kathleen Mundy, delve into the multifaceted world of retirement beyond the numbers. This isn't your typical retirement discussion; it's a vibrant journey into what retirement truly means in today's world.
Each episode of "Real Retirement" brings you compelling conversations with guests who bring a wealth of expertise and authentic retirement life experiences. Our goal? To inspire and educate our listeners to approach retirement with intentionality and a broader perspective.
But "Real Retirement" is more than just a podcast. It's a community for those navigating the uncharted waters of retirement, whether you're just starting to plan or are already on this deeply personal journey. We explore a wide array of topics, including:
-
Physical and Mental Well-Being: Understand the importance of health in enjoying a fulfilling retirement. -
Family Dynamics: Navigate the changing relationships and roles that come with this new phase of life. -
Retirement Transitions: Learn how to smoothly transition into retirement life. -
Purpose & Identity: Find meaning and redefine your sense of self post-retirement. -
Social Connections: Discover ways to maintain and build new social ties. -
Legacy & Impact: Contemplate the mark you want to leave on the world.
What sets "Real Retirement" apart? It's our commitment to authenticity. We bring you real stories from real retirees, discussing real challenges, surprises, joys, heartaches, and the myriad emotions that come with retirement. From addressing family dynamics to confronting identity shifts, we tackle the issues that truly matter to retirees.
Join Yasmin and Kathleen as they journey through the honest and often unspoken aspects of retirement. "Real Retirement" isn't just about ending a career; it's about beginning a new, exciting chapter of life with all its complexities and joys. Tune in and be part of a conversation that redefines retirement in the most real way possible.
George Kinder: I think talking
about the relative value of the
three domains of freedom is
pretty interesting.
and a lot of your focus is of
course on the life planning
aspect.
'cause you're in the financial
world, and I put that as the
second domain of freedom and the
first domain being in that each
moment is yours.
I think the first domain is the
most profound because it gives
you everything.
But if I were to advise anyone.
One of my teenage daughters, you
know, anyone just out of the
blue, which of those three would
you go to first?
Get life planned.
Live your life planned, what
life planning is really about is
it's designing who it is that
you've known you really wanna
be, and then making sure it
happens and happens in short
order.
usually it's a matter of months
that we do in the evoke process,
And at most it's two or three
years.
that's the story of your life.
You keep telling yourself as
you're going through your life,
oh, darn, I can't do this.
Oh, they're blocking me here,
there, whatever.
Oh, if only I could do that.
So we make sure that happens.
And then once you have that and
you feel that, then you can go
anywhere and you can go back to
the moments and you have the
courage.
You have the story of your life
as you want it to manifest.
You have the courage to go out
and tackle these larger issues
about humanity that are so right
now, and
Yasmin Nguyen: Welcome to The
Real Retirement Show.
My name is Yasmin.
Here with my co-host Kathleen.
Today's episode is more than
just a conversation.
It's a gift.
We are honored to welcome a
true, pioneer, visionary, and
gentle force of transformation,
George Kinder.
If you've ever wondered what it
means to truly live with
freedom, purpose, and
authenticity, this is the
episode that will stay with you
long after the credits roll.
George is globally known as the
father of the life planning
movement, but that only
scratches the surface.
He's a poet of possibility, a
relentless champion of personal
truth, and a mentor to thousands
of financial professionals
across 30 plus countries,
helping them guide clients
towards lives filled not just
with wealth, but with meaning.
He is the founder of the Kinder
Institute of Life Planning,
creator of the Profound Evoke
process, and author of timeless
books like The Seven Stages of
Money Maturity, life Planning
for You and his latest, the
Three Domains of Freedom.
For over five decades, he's
woven together the practices of
mindfulness, creative
expression, and financial
integrity into a movement that
empowers people to dream boldly
and actually live those dreams.
In today's conversation, George
shares how his life's journey
began with a deep hunger for
freedom and truth.
What it takes to sustain passion
and purpose over 30 years, even
when swimming against the
current, the deeper dimensions
of trustworthiness and why it's
the foundation of all real
relationships.
Why freedom is not just a
personal journey, but a human
right.
We're all called to protect And
how the wisdom of nature, poetry
and presence can help guide us
through life's transitions,
including retirement.
We will also explore how George
is evolving his legacy with his
recent move to London in a bold
new workshop series that brings
the concept of fiduciary duty,
beyond finances, into society,
into organizations, and into the
heart of humanity.
This episode is full of heart
humility and hope.
A rare opportunity to sit with
someone who is quietly and
powerfully shaping what it means
to live well.
So settle in.
You're about to hear from
someone who doesn't just talk
about living authentically.
He embodies it.
Thank you, George for joining
us.
My pleasure.
I, I've heard about you guys
and, and I get to meet you, so
it's wonderful.
Kathleen?
huge, huge footsteps to try and
walk in.
George Kinder: Oh gosh.
I'm a little guy.
Really?
Yasmin Nguyen: you have, you
have such incredible heart.
And presence and the commitment
that you have been on this path
for many decades and the impact
that you've made has really been
resounding, and we are just so
really honored and delighted to
share with you a conversation to
learn about your journey as well
as you know what's next
George Kinder: Wonderful.
Well, I'm really looking forward
to it.
Kathleen Mundy: I love your
story.
I feel like I know you, and it's
an odd situation now trying to
craft my concept, my,
impression.
the influence, the astonishment.
I don't know how many words I
can use, but to be perfectly
honest, I was so incredibly
impressed by what you've
accomplished over the last 30
plus years.
It's just monumental.
It's inspirational.
And, I'm just so excited to
learn a little bit more about
how you got here.
This is, it's an incredible
journey and how you sustain that
because, you know, we're on a
similar journey and that some of
the people just, they're not in
the boat with us yet.
George Kinder: Yeah.
Kathleen Mundy: and so as we
paddle from one show to another,
picking up passengers and
hopefully, you know, getting
from, well, we've gone from a
rowboat to maybe a schooner and
hopefully we'll get to something
like the, queen Elizabeth or the
Queen Britannia or whatever, you
know, that boat that now you're
gonna be very part, probably a
part of if you go and have a
look at it.
I'm excited for you and your
journey in London.
It's one of my favorite cities
as well.
George Kinder: Oh, thank you.
I'm really lucky to be here.
Kathleen Mundy: I am just so
impressed with what you have
accomplished over the last 30
years.
this was, an adventure.
That few people would even think
of taking and the courage that
you had to swim, I don't wanna
say upstream, but certainly
against the current.
George Kinder: Yeah,
Kathleen Mundy: I'm curious as
to how you were able to a.
Fight the force against you and
what you used to maintain the
momentum that you've continued
over the last 30 years.
George Kinder: well, you know
enough about my work and about,
life planning to know that what
we do in life planning, what
life planning advisors do is
they design Through
trustworthiness.
And by the way, thank you so
much for that wonderful article
and my friend.
Charlie Green and, and, Rob
Alford, did workshops with both
Charlie and Rob.
Did workshops with my wife
Kathy, who's part of this
fiduciary movement, but I'm
digressing.
But the, the, you know, the
first thing of course is
building, trustworthiness, but,
what we're most famous for, and
I think what people grasp most
quickly is that we create a
dream of freedom for a person.
And then we deliver it.
Now, you can't design that.
artificial.
You can't design it without
building that quality of
trustworthiness, that you guys
know very well.
but for myself, I.
To, to fight the force.
I, mean, it goes back to birth
really.
I mean, I came out of the womb
fighting for freedom.
It really, really does.
And, um, uh, I've got stories
about that, but we're not gonna
go back that far here.
I knew early on I was passionate
to live a life of freedom
myself.
So it starts with yourself.
It has to start with yourself.
And, you can't be a great
advisor unless you're a great,
unless you've lived your dream,
unless you're living your dream
of freedom.
You can't be a great listener
unless you can listen really
deeply and subtly and profoundly
to yourself.
I'd already done a lot of that
interior work, but I think the,
when you say fight the force,
man, I mean that, that's having
that dream, having it in front
of you and knowing I'm going for
it.
It doesn't matter what force
gets in the way, I'm going for
it.
This is the right thing.
I know it's the right thing.
There'll be a few people that
will join me along the way.
And sure enough, the, and the
best of people, joined along the
way.
And so that to fight the force,
it's really that your dream is
strong and life planning helps
with that, obviously.
and my dream was strong.
I really believe in freedom.
that's huge for me.
As much as I'm promoting this
fiduciary in all things.
Think fiduciary in all things is
essential.
we are to have freedom available
for everybody.
And that's what that, that's my
goal.
It's like this is the humanity
goal and it's time for that, the
globalization and, of where we
are in the world and the scale
that take things to.
But the other question is, how
did I maintain it?
Right?
You're going, how did I keep
going?
I think the other thing is I
felt I had very little To lose.
that's helpful too.
I never put the dollar, or now
that I'm in the uk, the pound
ahead of me and say that's my
goal.
A lot of people do, most people
that, that will be listening to
this podcast, they've been told,
your business comes first and
you gotta have the goals.
There's the 20% rule and all
that kind of stuff.
I never did that.
I always felt that what was most
important was the truth and was
delivering freedom.
first learning to live it
myself, delivering it to myself,
but then seeing how to deliver
it to others.
And I, Kathleen, I was.
Passionate about it.
I, and I just kept returning to
that passion.
Like I didn't have it on the
refrigerator door, but you
could, you know, the image on
the refrigerator there's your
image of freedom.
Anyway, that, that's what it was
for me.
a lot of passion
Kathleen Mundy: there's no
question that you still maintain
that passion, and now it's
become infectious.
Because anyone who listens to
some of your podcasts reads your
books.
Now here's another really deep
question for you.
George Kinder: Yeah.
Kathleen Mundy: You have left
the serenity cabin and the
environment in which you started
your morning.
Did your meditations, began your
day until you were ready to
write?
George Kinder: Yeah,
Kathleen Mundy: you going to
replicate that now that you're
in the city of London?
George Kinder: you know, I have
a dear friend in, Massachusetts,
one of my very best friends for
many years, who, I.
He is a wonderful student of
painting.
He's a great painter in and of
himself.
He was, I forget what the term
is, but he redid, he brought,
would, heal, 19th century
American paintings in this hub
on, Newbury Street in Boston.
he is a, as I am, fond of.
paintings from all over the
world and, uh, one of the ways
that we linked up early on was
our love of Chinese landscape
paintings.
And, they have influenced, and I
see Yasmin nodding, and I know
they, you know, they've
influenced art throughout Asia,
Vietnamese art, Japanese art.
and so we were pa we both imp
passionate about it.
And of the things he said to me,
he said, you know, George, you
know, and a lot of those
landscapes, Chinese landscapes
that are so beautiful and so
specious, that spaciousness
speaks to, The profound nature
of consciousness of our,
awakening really they speak to.
But he said, you know, that
little cabin that's often there
in the, in
Kathleen Mundy: right.
George Kinder: Yeah.
That ca that's the cabin,
Kathleen.
And that, and he said, that's
the symbol of enlightenment.
And I said, what?
Kathleen Mundy: Wow.
George Kinder: I based of course
this whole 30 years of, my.
What I think of my legacy is
actually my books of poetry and,
photography.
Putting them together, in ways
that, draw upon the,
calligraphy.
I didn't do calligraphy, but it
really is the same thing as the
great arts in Asia of
calligraphy and, great painting.
So that cabin, you're right,
it's not just the serenity of
it, but it was, a practice,
every day.
I wanted to know what the nature
of the present moment was, and
I.
And I spent 30 years exploring
that.
And my hunch was that it had a
great deal to do with Mother
Nature because, you know, think
about it, when you go, you know,
here we are, we're all like,
we're all in these rooms, right?
We got four corners and all,
four walls.
But when we walk outside.
Immediately there's something
that comes alive in us and
whether it's the breeze that
subtly touches us or subtle
temperature differences, the
slight changes in humidity, but
something's alive.
And it's not just the sounds of
birds, it's mother nature making
connection to us.
And it's moment by moment and it
happens much more rapidly than
thought.
In fact, there's a recent
scientific American article
that, in December that talked
about how we're actually.
Experiencing that information a
hundred million times as fast as
we think.
and that's the power of coming
back to life planning, great
listening.
And that's the power of
mindfulness.
So when you say, how am I gonna
leave that serenity, I did those
30 years so I could bring it
with me.
Kathleen Mundy: Oh my gosh.
George Kinder: Yeah.
Kathleen Mundy: is a talent, but
I hope it doesn't take us all 30
years to, to acquire that.
Yasmin knows that I live in an
area that we're our backyard is
a forest.
George Kinder: Oh, nice.
Yeah.
Kathleen Mundy: understand your,
Of the ethos about connecting
with nature and being there and
listening to the birds and
watching things grow and
develop.
And as I, I think about this, I
think about your three
dimensions of freedom workshops
that you're starting in
September.
How have you taken that?
Your sense of everything you
believe in is freedom.
How have you taken that to a
workshop kind of philosophy?
George Kinder: Right.
So, first of all, I think the
book really captures the cabin
in a very profound way.
certainly the first third of the
book, which is about this, the
first freedom, which is a
stunning freedom when you think
about it.
And at first it's kind of one of
these obvious things like,
Einstein would say the most
profound questions are the ones
that children know already, or
ask.
And so that first domain of
freedom is that each moment is
yours.
we might do lip service to it.
We, but we don't really get it
and we don't really take
advantage of it, and we don't.
Deepen into it.
It's the most profound thing you
can have is because every moment
that's what your life is each of
these moments.
so I just want to give a shout
out to the book The Domains of
Freedom.
It is the summary of my life's
work, of everything I've done.
And it's really simple.
It's, and it's, and again, I was
thinking of some great works
from Asia, Lazu Chang and, other
works that are that.
Simple.
And I wanted to write something
that was simple people could get
and do.
Read in a sitting, you can read
it in an hour and a quarter,
although you're so tempted to
pause with, there's a lot of
wisdom.
I think in it, you're tempted to
pause with it and really think
about it.
so I wrote it because it's a way
of getting it out to everybody,
and I wrote it so people could
reflect on it, sit with it, and.
Is something that they would
value at home.
and so your question about
taking it into a workshop
setting is a really interesting
one.
And the place, and I don't know
if you were just alluding to
this or not, but gosh, where in
such a crazy time in the world.
Such a crazy time.
And, and my strength in, in
business, my strength
professionally, let's put it
that way, is, has been
workshops.
I designed a workshop that
really has, It transformed so
much, and it's a tiny corner of
financial, planning or financial
advice.
the people who are there,
they're, those people are
powerful, profound people.
They're really good
practitioners, the best, I
think.
And, so it will have, influence
in that way.
What happened for me, of things.
I finished the work, I finished
the, that being in the cabin and
doing that work and
understanding what it was.
You probably know how old I am.
I know.
Thank goodness.
I don't look quite this age, but
I'm 77 years old.
my golly, in 10 years I'm gonna
be 87.
And it's oh, you know, you know,
and you know that's really, you
think that's, boy, you should
have been retired a long time
ago.
And, and my wife Kathy, and I.
You know, we think about, she's
almost 10 years younger than me,
but we think about where would
we wanna be if we were retiring?
And we thought about, you know,
do you go to a, you know, a
retirement center of some sort
and what do we do?
and one of our thoughts was,
what could be better than the
city of London?
You can walk out the door just
like you can in any retirement
center.
there.
Everything's there.
and what if we were close to
the, you know, the galleries
that we love, the parks that we
love, and of course they're good
people that I know over the
years I've met.
People.
so that was one thing.
And the second thing was there's
a devastation that we have to
weather whenever we finished a
major, a legacy and the, that
five book series of poetry and
photography is my legacy.
I finished it, I gonna do next?
And then this terrible time
that's happening in the world.
And I thought, you know, I'd
written the three domains of
freedom.
That third domain, I feel really
at peace and on target in the
first domain of each moment is
mine.
And I have lived a life has
claimed that, your eyes on the
prize that your life is yours.
that's that prize I was the
passion I was talking about.
But the third domain of freedom
really requires all of us.
It's something that's about all
of us.
It's about humanity and we're
really not there.
and we should be.
Each one of us look at this.
Each one of us has one of these,
right?
We all do over the world.
Do you know?
it, I think it's 90%.
I think I wrote about this in
the book.
It's 90% of humanity has a
smartphone.
Well, imagine if this smartphone
that we all have was required
and did to speak the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing but the
truth.
Kathleen Mundy: Oh, what a world
that would be.
George Kinder: Yeah.
And wouldn't we as humanity now,
not, you know, this camp over
here and this camp over here and
this warrior camp over here, but
wouldn't we, as humanity,
wouldn't we be able to make good
decisions?
we might differ.
We live in different places.
in different circumstances,
we're different ages.
We have families or we don't.
We have different ideas, but
still, if it told the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, don't you think humanity
could make wise decisions?
I do.
Kathleen Mundy: I
George Kinder: And so why aren't
we doing it?
So that, and that hit me and I
thought, want to wanna make that
happen.
I realize, again, I can just do
it small bit, but I wanna make
that happen and.
and America didn't feel like the
safest place to do it in right
now.
I don't, you know, my attitude
toward bullies.
I don't take kindly to bullies.
And, in America right now, it's
a, you know, standing up to a
bully.
if you're Bruce Springsteen, you
can do it, but
Kathleen Mundy: right.
George Kinder: thank God there's
one boss in America, as they
say.
but,
Kathleen Mundy: I just wanna,
George Kinder: yeah.
Kathleen Mundy: On that a little
bit.
I don't know if you knew I was
Canadian.
George Kinder: Oh, wow.
That's so cool.
Yay.
So we're we got Yeah,
Kathleen Mundy: you know what
King Charles just did?
George Kinder: I do.
I do.
Yes,
Kathleen Mundy: bully in his
place.
George Kinder: absolutely.
and, so I thought, I, I can do
it in the uk and then I went
through a huge, very difficult
process.
It took me three months to write
a business plan.
I'd never written a business
plan before in my life.
it, and I wanted to make sure.
That they honored it because
there's a rare visa that they
give out called innovator
founder Visa, there's only a few
hundred a year they give out,
and often it takes months for
them to make the decision.
The endorsing body made its
decision on my proposal in nine
days.
Kathleen Mundy: wow.
Congratulations.
George Kinder: Yeah, so that's,
so basically the workshop is to
take these ideas of freedom into
business where we really think
it's profit that it's all about,
and give them yet another
alternative, the fiduciary to B
Corps, to the profit model.
and to bring it to their people,
to the workforce,
Kathleen Mundy: Right.
George Kinder: to give them of
freedom.
Yasmin Nguyen: George, as
you've, Taught and shared your
wisdom in this movement with
more than 6,000 people, over 30
plus countries.
I'm curious if you found
different regions or countries
or pockets like, the UK that are
embracing this type of mindset,
this type of philosophy about
freedom, about, the fiduciary
of, making that type of a
difference in people's lives.
George Kinder: As a child, as a
young man, I never in a million
years thought I would be, able
to have, any influence at all in
another country, much less 30,
30 countries.
And so it's been, a joy.
I love the word in your
background there, Yasmin Joy.
It's been a joy and a pleasure
and a great honor and, and.
Different things happen.
You know, obviously cultures are
different, and over here in
England there's the stiff upper
lip and the, but everywhere I go
I, everywhere I went, I had
people say, everywhere in every
culture they say, oh, th this
will never land here.
I.
Kathleen Mundy: Oh yeah.
George Kinder: every culture
they'd say, this will never land
here.
And they'd say, you in America,
you've got that therapy stuff
and you got a soft, squishy
stuff.
And and I said, yeah, sure.
we got red states and blue
states.
And do you know what?
People in the red states love it
as much as people in the blue
states.
this is about, being, a human
being, and that's what, that's
ultimately what happened was
that people recognized that what
we've had to do, because we
haven't had, it's not like we
went out and sought.
big bucks from funders, and I
think that's helped us not
seeking that out, but because we
haven't had that, we go with the
low hanging fruit.
where are people, where do
people grab it immediately?
And where can they pay enough?
that, that we can make it
happen.
And it's helped, but everywhere
I've gone it's, people have
loved it.
you know, as I'm looking at you
all, I'm thinking of India,
which is, I wish I could go back
much more.
And I wish it was more
affordable for them, because
they have really embraced it.
They really loved it.
I took my gold and civilization
conversations to them and they
just ate it up.
But the places where it's been
strongest are.
places that have stood for,
historically have stood for
freedom and democracy.
so it's, the three strongest
have been the, the us, the uk
and the Netherlands.
And, the Netherlands has been a
lovely bridge to other European
countries'cause they speak so
many languages over there.
So that, that's been, that's
mostly what it's been.
Kathleen Mundy: Well, Yasmine, I
could ask a million questions,
but I'm gonna just let go a
little
Yasmin Nguyen: oh.
Kathleen Mundy: because, I'm
just, I, I am motivated, I guess
that's the word.
Every time you speak, it
motivates me to do something
that I haven't done.
I'm gonna tell you I'm gonna be
74 in, in 10 days,
George Kinder: No way.
You look, you look so, you look
at least 20 years younger than
me,
Kathleen Mundy: So I felt the
same way.
You know, what should I be doing
at this point in my life?
I agree with you.
You know, if you have a mission
and you want, if you're so
passionate about something, age
has nothing to do with it.
George Kinder: right
Kathleen Mundy: means I think
you have to travel a little
faster.
George Kinder: there, there are
definitely challenges because
there's a part of you that's
slowing down in various ways
and, and you have to deal with
that.
But if you're, if you are
passionate where there's a will,
there's a way and you find it,
Yasmin Nguyen: Yeah.
George, I'd love to dive a
little bit deeper into, your
journey through this life
planning movement that you've
inspired and really, moved
forward.
And I'm curious, and where has
it now?
and where could it be?
Because.
My observation at this point is
we're still at the early stage
of adoption and there seems to
be some, either lack of
awareness or appreciation for
the impact that it could make.
And so I'm curious to get your
view from a historical as well
as the present and what it could
look like in the future in terms
of adoption and really the,
rollout of more experiences like
this.
George Kinder: Yeah.
I'm.
I am optimistic by nature.
uh, so don't trust me on this.
Yes.
Kathleen Mundy: I love that.
George Kinder: But I, but I am,
it's, I think it's intimately
tied up with the notion of
fiduciary and, I really do.
And the, Partly because when I'm
talking about fiduciary in all
things and taking that notion
into businesses, that's a whole
new ball game.
And it's as, that's as
revolutionary in many ways as
life planning was at the very
beginning.
When you ask about it at the
very beginning, you know, the
huge percentage of the financial
advisors in the world were
salespeople.
And then those who weren't, were
lawyers or had legal kind of
backgrounds, they were all about
contracts and putting things
together in, in legal frameworks
and that kind of thing.
and so I on the scene with, what
they interpreted as, and this is
a fair interpretation, as a
psychology of money.
And teaching people to be
therapists in the, in, in the
world.
And of course, quite soon
thereafter, there was a, it's
not a major split, but I'cause
many, so many friends in the
financial therapy world.
But I said, no, there's a, it's
simpler than therapy.
it, and it's much easier.
And, it really has to do with
just building a sense of trust
in the.
Your relationship with your
client and then, and then
catching fire and helping them
catch fire.
And here's how you do the
catching fire.
And that's really all you need
to do.
And that's a lot of great
therapy, is that.
but I felt it was, you didn't
need to go back in the past and
figure things out.
All you need to do was build a
bond of trust so that people
could go through the hero's
journey of empathy.
Around their tough stuff and
feel it internally, feel it from
you, the mentor, and then as a
consequence of feeling that
trustworthiness, I.
they're ready.
Little sparks, you light and
whew, boy takes off.
And so that was the kind of the
essence that I boiled it down
to, even though Seven Stages is
really a psychology of Money
book.
And, and we still do the
workshop, it's a very important
workshop.
and many of the people who
started the financial therapy
movement came from, train major
trainings that I gave.
So you ask where it's been and
where it is now, and where it
will be you.
You know, we get, fiduciary is a
term that in America we find it
often lost in this.
Right, right now I'm still in
the world of pensions, you know,
and it's very legalistic
Yasmin Nguyen: Yep.
George Kinder: and it's got and
I'll throw it out, I'll throw
out something about, hey,
fiduciary means putting your
client first.
and they'll go into all these
legal details or sales details
or something.
I, that's fine, but this is what
it really means.
And this is what I'm really
pitching right now, and I'm
building, I think what you've
just shared at the beginning,
Kathleen and Yasmin, your
appreciation for the work that
I've done.
It gives me a platform, even
though I don't think it's really
very much, if you look at how
few the numbers are.
Yeah, it's 6,000 or it's six or
700, whatever, but that's still
very small in relation to the
world in relation to financial
advice.
But The purity of it, the
strength of it.
I do think, I think it's the
best model out there for this
kind of work and that strength
that it has me an ability to
talk and to reach larger
audiences.
And right now, I think what the
world needs is trustworthiness.
Kathleen Mundy: a hundred
percent.
George Kinder: you know,
Kathleen, as you're saying that,
and Yasmin.
Yasmin, as you're nodding.
One of the things I've
encouraged people to do around
Fiat is to take it to their
kitchen table, gather their
friends around the kitchen table
and dining room table, whatever
it is, and have a conversation
and ask them just one really
simple question.
'cause what we're trying to do
with fiat is to make fiduciary
in all things, including
fiduciary, toward the truth and
toward democracy, toward people,
and toward the.
What if it were the law of the
land?
What if every institution that
you encountered as you walk
through your day, was
trustworthy toward you in every
possible way?
What if the world was like that?
How would your world change?
How would your life change?
And we ask it in, you know, it,
it's a great kitchen table kind
of conversation.
Get people, think about it.
I had my kids and they're, had
children late in life, so
they're just, you know, they're
still in college.
And, and they brought their
friends and I, we had some other
friends around and of the kids
said, and this reflects on this
dystopian time that we're in.
One of the kids said, well, you
know.
That would be incredible.
You know, I think it would be so
incredible that would actually
think about having kids
Kathleen Mundy: Wow.
George Kinder: think about that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Think about that.
This is how dark it's become
generationally.
other people just said, oh my
God, it would be such, so much
ease in my life would happen.
And other people have said, oh,
I'd have so much freedom to do
what I want to make that happen.
So I think it's tied to that
and, and that's, and so that,
and that's where I'm pushing
right now, I'm trying to make it
much broader in that way.
But the three domains of Freedom
Workshop as you probably gather,
one third of it is about life
planning.
I'm getting to bring life
planning into businesses and one
of my passions that hasn't
developed, and part of this is
low hanging fruit.
And where does it, how does it
happen?
I think life planning belongs to
everybody.
Kathleen Mundy: Mm-hmm.
George Kinder: think it's shame
that it's just, I mean, I love
my advisors dearly, all the ones
that have studied, but I think
it belongs to everybody.
I don't, everybody's got a dream
of freedom and if you link up to
that passion, they can deliver
so much more into the world.
And I think it's a shame that we
haven't yet fully brought it,
whether it's the foundation,
whether it's nefi or it's the,
foundation for financial
planning.
I think it's a shame that we
haven't brought it yet, to
everybody.
So that's one of the, one of the
things about bringing it into
business, you're bringing it to
the workforce.
Kathleen Mundy: I love what you
said, and I think this is a
really powerful word to take a
second and just think about is
yet I.
George Kinder: Yeah, yeah,
Kathleen Mundy: and that kind of
speaks to the possibilities and
maybe even the responsibilities
of what it might take that yet
into a now.
word.
Yasmin Nguyen: Yeah.
George Kinder: Yeah.
Yeah.
Yasmin Nguyen: George, you
touched on the word
trustworthiness quite a bit, and
it's like the common core of
your, the theme of your beliefs
and approach and we align with
that very much so in, in our
work as well too.
I've always been curious to
deconstruct and dissect and
understand what.
What creates trustworthiness?
And one of the, models that have
really influenced my thought
around this has been, one
presented by, Charles Green and,
David Maister, the trust
equation and looking at the
components that drive trust,
whether it be credibility,
reliability, intimacy, and
self-orientation.
I think oftentimes we overlook
the, intimacy and the
self-orientation piece of it,
and I find that.
The work that you do and the
impact that you're making,
really emphasize or expands
those two components to be able
to deepen that, that
trustworthiness in addition to
the credibility or the
reliability piece.
and I'm curious what is your
perspective on how
trustworthiness, how has it
evolved over time as we are
considering the state of where
we are in the world?
George Kinder: Yeah.
really good question.
and it's still, you know, you've
got the.
that hard edge of business that
thinks still it's just
credibility and reliability
Yasmin Nguyen: Yeah.
George Kinder: and Right.
and that's their attitude.
and they'll brush you off out of
their office like and you're
done.
I was there.
I remember, the moment where
Charlie, added intimacy to the
equation.
It used to be C plus R divided
by, self-orientation.
And, and as I mentioned, Rob and
Charlie and maybe David as well,
used to give workshops with my
wife.
So we were, connected, and, lot,
lots of d different connections
and connections through the
Evoke trainings as well.
with Charlie, what people don't
realize, just to e emphasize.
and you know, I wanna toss
everybody toward your article,
which is about this, recent
article you did, Yasmin.
But the, self-orientation is
something that, I think is very
closely related to the
self-orientation.
one of the ways that I frame
this is that if you think about
Who, among all the advisors
that, you know, if you were to
give a generality of what's the
characteristic that makes for
the very best advisors?
And some people might say, well,
they're really technically,
brilliant.
I think we would all say, no,
that's really not it.
And and what it is that they're
great listeners.
Yasmin Nguyen: Okay.
George Kinder: The best advisors
are always the great listener
because those are the ones who
really know who you are, so that
the advice is really fiduciary.
It's tailored to and this notion
that you can do it by having the
cleverest, you know, scheme for
a tax product or whatever, is
not only old fashioned, but
it's, It's criminal, really.
it's just, it shouldn't be
happening.
but it still does happen some.
so the greatest advisors are the
great listeners.
And among those, you know, where
do we find if we were to do
another categorization among
those great listeners who are
the best listeners?
And I would argue that they're,
life planners.
and it's because in fiduciary,
we think fiduciary is about
charging, it's about being fee
only, and that's one layer of
it.
Yasmin Nguyen: Yeah.
George Kinder: But if you really
put the client first, it also
includes the whole holistic
quality of the CFP.
And clearly it involves life
planning as well, because
they're the, our hearts are just
right.
They're connected to the client.
so then the question becomes
among the life planners who are
the best.
the best listeners, and I think
average they're the ones that
have the strongest mindfulness
practice.
And the reason is that what
mindfulness does and you Yeah,
and you can see I've got a map
of mindfulness that out.
I outlines what happens as you
practice it, but what
mindfulness does is that it
reduces that self-orientation
that Charlie, I.
It references in such a clever
way, brilliant way, really.
it reduces that self-orientation
For your audience who don't know
what that means, it means that
normally, you know, you've got
your marquee of who I am out
there and you got your
PowerPoint that shows who you
are and your credentials and
everything.
but if you have a very low
self-orientation, it means that
you've pulled yourself out of
the equation.
And so rather than going, oh, I,
I had something like that, and
taking over the conversation by
sharing your similarities, you
just really give the meeting
over to the client and the
client knows that they feel that
and then, that, that's what
leads to their ability to dream
with you.
So that lowing lowering of
self-orientation is really
helpful.
And when you ask where are we
with that?
Well, clearly there's this, you
have to go back to what's
happening.
you look at the horrible
political situation that we're
facing right now, and you have
to go, you have to look for a
moment at what's going on there.
I just, I wanna say something
about that and humanity.
We talked about the smartphone.
This is the first time in human
history.
That we've all been together.
It's the first time you, we
never had this communication
possibility.
We, I was talking to someone in,
in, in Vietnam.
is that where you're from
originally?
Your family of origin?
Yasmine.
Yasmin Nguyen: I am actually
from Vietnam.
George Kinder: That's what I
thought.
Yasmin Nguyen: Yeah.
George Kinder: was talking with
someone who, in fact, I did a
podcast with someone in Vietnam,
who was based in America
originally.
and went over there and he said,
you know, this phone has really
changed.
'cause I brought up the same
point.
He said, you know, my kid talk
to his grandmother in the States
every day.
Easily every single day.
And it used to be, you know,
when I first got here, he said
I'd go into a phone booth and,
you know, I'd be, you know,
counting the minutes and all of
this.
He said it's totally
revolutionized.
So we humanities together, he.
Doesn't feel like it because the
politics is, we made some
mistakes giving more and more
power to, basically to wealth
basically.
And so that power is accumulated
and accumulated in the media,
accumulated in politics, and and
it accumulated the, it
accumulated in business.
And the, let me go a few more
steps with this
Yasmin Nguyen: Yeah.
George Kinder: Really very
interesting.
So humanity is really together.
and we need to emphasize that
honor, that, understand that,
and speak to that all of us
we're heart to heart, to person.
We're together and we need to do
that and emphasize that.
And there, there are a number of
things historically that are
really interesting because,
coming to this place where
finally humanity comes together
as a species.
Just astonishing.
Not a, not an ethnicity, not a
nation state.
We're a species and we can make
decisions as a species.
That's incredible.
and, but here we are.
we have these terrible problems.
And before the political
situation got so dystopian, we
had global warming, right?
That was a major thing.
And we'd think, oh gosh, how did
this happen?
We have a wonderful term that I
know you both are very familiar
with, called going to scale and
going to scale is, you know,
it's a value we have, is it
right?
We want our business to go to
scale'cause we want it to be big
and powerful.
I'd love your podcast to go to
scale.
I wanna see you guys be really
successful with this.
these are wonderful things and
but what happens when.
we go global a as a species and
as markets, what happens when we
go global?
All the good stuff that's there.
All what economists call all of
the negative externalities, that
go along with
Kathleen Mundy: Thank
George Kinder: the good stuff.
Also go global.
Kathleen Mundy: that's true.
George Kinder: and the reason
for that is that goes back to
when we first set up the
contract for, incorporation.
We allowed people to get all
these benefits, tax benefits,
and the main benefit is
hierarchy.
allowed them to gather money
through capital.
Well, that create, creates a
hierarchy right there.
It's no longer just me as a sole
person.
And then they could borrow a
whole bunch.
Well, that makes the hierarchy
even larger.
And then they can use their
communication, which makes the
hierarchy even larger.
we've made this, you know,
terrible thing about, oh, well a
corporation is a person so they
can get involved in democracy.
And so that makes the hierarchy
even larger.
and those negative
externalities, because those are
not people that, those are not
human beings.
These are artificial
organizations.
Our corporations are.
And so what happens is that the
worst of humanity, I.
Kathleen Mundy: That's exposed.
George Kinder: Comes out and
gathers because we're growing
for greed or power.
So that's why fiduciary, think,
is really compelling.
And because I, if we have a
fiduciary standard that's
required for every corporation,
none of those externalities will
come out.
if you, you're, if you're still
allowed to accumulate, uh, the
hierarchy of power, but you're
required to be a fiduciary to
the truth.
How could we have social media
who's going off on crazy, false
stories?
If you're required to be a
fiduciary to democracy.
How could you possibly undermine
it with your power and likewise
to the planet and to people, you
wouldn't have the kinds of
inequities.
So it, it all comes together.
I don't know if I've gone too
far afield, but I think that it
links now this little piece that
we're talking about, intimacy
and self-orientation,
orientation links in a way to
the largest piece about, how,
our economics are structured,
how civilization is structured.
for the first time, we are
humane it.
That is meant to be humanity.
Structure.
Humanity is civilization.
And now we're coming together
with a single civilization, with
many elements and many different
ethnicities and cultures and all
this.
How wonderful.
But, it's meant to come together
with the human heart that's ary.
Yasmin Nguyen: Wow.
Kathleen Mundy: Oh, I, this
podcast is not long enough.
I can just tell you right now,
I'm, I've got a tangent I'm
gonna go off on.
When you talk about humanity,
people have those, there's many
people who object still to AI
because they think the human
element isn't involved.
And how do we deal with this and
what is it gonna mean to our
future?
And am I gonna be lost in all of
the negative?
I'm just curious.
I love the way you questioned
Dan about his Yes.
About his article on this.
And for those of you who are
listening, it's a wonderful guy.
we've actually had him as a
podcast guest.
I was not available, so I really
feel I'm in the dark on that
one.
I didn't get to participate.
But, he again is in the uk.
and we talked about ai and of
course you probably know that's
a nice structure within our,
offerings or program, whatever,
the way we wanna help people.
George Kinder: Right.
Kathleen Mundy: so what are your
thoughts about the future of AI
and how we should it or, deny
it, and for what reasons On each
side of the fence and what do
you see the future being?
George Kinder: Great.
and I wanna say that this is one
of the areas that we get,
polarized separated.
And then strong forces, media
forces, political forces can
manipulate us because we're in
different camps.
Kathleen Mundy: caps.
George Kinder: So I want, I
wanna say that's, first of all,
because I.
We can go out and we can fight
global warming, we can fight for
democracy.
We can fight for truth in media.
We can fight for having AI that
is responsible and humane.
we can fight for, equality in,
in so many ways, whether it's,
gender or income or whatever.
And we, or we fi fight for local
issues and what's happening in
every one of those.
Is we're setting a situation up
where we can be divided because
we don't have a system that
responds in a humane way toward
everything.
There is a way to address this,
everything.
And so I will address your
question about ai, but I think
that it's wrong.
I think we, we are shortsighted.
To focus on any of these
individually when the system is
gonna undermine us.
And that system is one that just
simply is not fiduciary.
So if we don't band together,
and it's not that we don't need
to fight all those fights'cause
we do, and they're all
important, they're all valuable.
But we also need to join
together around fiduciary.
And if we don't, it won't
matter.
because the powerful forces will
make whatever they want
eventually happen.
so coming back to ai, how could
it not be one of the greatest
and coolest things that has ever
happened to the world?
it's stunning what it can do,
but if you have political system
that gives the power of it.
the wealthiest people are the
most powerful.
And then again, they can divide
us and they can take the
portions that they want and they
can undermine, our humane kind
of trying to craft it.
I think it's a wonderful thing.
I don't know enough about your
system, but I'm really glad
you're doing it'cause I can see
that you're really good people
and, have humanity at your base,
yet you're in your heart.
but I do think that.
It getting too caught up in, in
that, without bringing fiduciary
in and saying, look, we've
gotta, we've gotta address the
whole system.
'cause the next thing that's
coming is mirror molecules,
which will destroy humanity.
Or there's other biological
stuff that's coming.
And just as AI arrived, we are
so ingenious as a species, gonna
be a lot more coming.
AI is not the end game.
There's a lot more coming, and
each one of those things is
gonna be incredible with the
greatness that it could bring to
us.
And with the horrors.
That it will bring to us if we
don't address the fiduciary
element.
so whatever you do, I just urge
you to make sure that the
fiduciary piece, always bring
that in as a, the base.
We need to shift the base of the
economic system so that it's
always humane in everything that
it does.
Yasmin Nguyen: we would
certainly welcome and appreciate
your guidance on that as we
continue to shape the, the path
of, the impact that we're.
We're making in the work that
we're doing too, George.
George Kinder: Yeah.
Yasmin Nguyen: we're getting
close to the top of the hour
here.
and I'm curious, George, you
have, had so many conversations.
You've been a guest on many
shows and had many appearances
And have there ever been a
question that someone's yet to
ask that you've wished that
they'd ask?
Kathleen Mundy: That's a great
question.
George Kinder: Well.
Kathleen Mundy: my guy.
George Kinder: Well, I'll tell
you one that, and again, I might
have mentioned, I did mention
this, ultimately in the book I'm
thinking about it, there's not
one that exactly comes to mind,
but I think talking about the
relative value of the three
domains of freedom is pretty
interesting.
and a lot of your focus is of
course on the life planning
aspect.
'cause you're in the financial
world, and I put that as the
second domain of freedom and the
first domain being in that each
moment is yours.
I think the first domain is the
most profound because it gives
you everything.
But if I were to advise anyone.
One of my teenage daughters, you
know, anyone just out of the
blue, which of those three would
you go to first?
Get life planned.
Live your life planned, what
life planning is really about is
it's designing who it is that
you've known you really wanna
be, and then making sure it
happens and happens in short
order.
usually it's a matter of months
that we do in the evoke process,
how we train.
And at most it's two or three
years.
that's the story of your life.
You keep telling yourself as
you're going through your life,
oh, darn, I can't do this.
Oh, they're blocking me here,
there, whatever.
Oh, if only I could do that.
So we make sure that happens.
And then once you have that and
you feel that, then you can go
anywhere and you can go back to
the moments and you have the
courage.
You have the story of your life
as you want it to manifest.
You have the courage to go out
and tackle these larger issues
about humanity that are so right
now, and the bullies are trying
to keep us from addressing.
Kathleen Mundy: That is exactly
what we needed to hear, so I
appreciate that so much because
everything that Yasmin has
designed, Has always been from a
heartfelt need and want to help
others
George Kinder: Yeah.
Kathleen Mundy: and so
fiduciary, it is at the core of
it, although we didn't really
talk about it in those terms,
but that's really, you know,
it's there.
George Kinder: Right.
Kathleen Mundy: when I first saw
you.
When I first saw your Fiat, give
an acronym.
just came back from Europe and I
thought I, I drove one of those
while I was there, I'm glad you,
I'm glad you explained that for
our audience today anyway.
George Kinder: Yeah.
Yeah.
Yasmin Nguyen: Wow.
Well, George, it has been such
an incredible experience with
you today, not only learning
about, your yourself, your work,
the wisdom that you've shared
from the journey, but also to
really feel heard and, seen.
it's interesting, you know, as,
I say the interviewer in these
types of formats here, a lot of
times we're asking the questions
and all that, but.
your own way of your enthusiasm,
your smile, your presence, are
an incredible listener yourself.
And I so appreciate you modeling
as well as being, what you share
in the world, and we are so
grateful to have this
opportunity to share that with
you.
George Kinder: Wow.
Wow.
really hope we meet again, guys.
it's been a lot of fun for me as
well.
Meaningful,
Kathleen Mundy: Well, you don't
have to hope because I know I
said to Yasmin just before we
started this podcast, I said, I
think we need to meet.
That's what I think we need to
do.
it what I'm gonna put it out
there to the universe and I am
just gonna say that it will
happen.
I don't know when, but it will
happen.
And with your guidance and your
enthusiasm, I have no doubt.
George Kinder: I will say, and,
I have a place that I love in
some ways even more than London.
it's in the UK so you can
incorporate London with it.
And the place, I love it just as
much, if not more than Hawaii.
And that is Cornwall.
and my family, we've been going
there for, 10 years now.
It is where we go, where our
heart goes there and, and we're
giving an evoke program.
We'd love to see you at program
there in Cornwall in September.
yeah, so anyway.
Kathleen Mundy: Something to
look for at in the future.
Yasmin Nguyen: Wow.
Well, thank you so much.
It's been truly a gift to, to be
here and to share this
experience with you, George.
George Kinder: Wonderful.
Thank you so much guys.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Yasmin Nguyen: All Thank you for
taking the time to join us
today.
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