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Creativity isn’t tidy—it’s risky, chaotic, and full of surprises. It’s full of breakthroughs and breakdowns, moments of flow and moments of doubt. Join Mishu Hilmy for unfiltered conversations with artists, filmmakers, musicians, and fearless makers who thrive in the unknown, embrace imperfection, and create at the edge of possibility.
This is your front row seat to the self-doubt, unexpected wins, and messy emotional work of making something real. But craft isn’t just about feeling—it’s about problem-solving, process, and the devotion behind mastery.
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Mishu Hilmy
Welcome to Mischief in Mastery where we embrace the ups, downs, and all around uncertainty of a creative life and that steady and sometimes not so steady journey toward expertise. Each episode we talk candidly with people I know, people I don't know, folks who produce, direct, write, act, do comedy, make art, make messes, and make meaning out of their lives. You will hear guests lay out how they work, what they're thinking about, where they get stuck, and why they snap out of their comfort zones and into big, bold, risky moves.
So, if you're hungry for honest insights, deep dives into process philosophies and practical tips, plus maybe a little mischief along the way, you're in the right place. For more, visit mischiefpod.com. Hello everyone, it's Misha. Welcome to Mischief and Mastery. Today we are talking with Jenny McMurtry. Jenny is a character-driven screenwriter, story editor, and founder of the Chicago Film Events Community.
She's passionate about building community and spreading information, helping filmmakers navigate the indie world, discover opportunities, and bringing eyes to Chicago-made projects. Jenny has honed her craft at schools like Second City and I.O. and studied character development, story editing, and script development with industry-leading writers such as Brant Forrester, Shonda Rhimes, and Daniella Saoni. With years of industry experience and a deep love for storytelling, she's dedicated to supporting emerging female writers and the Chicago film scene. So what do we talk about?
we chat about writing. I love writing the joys and the difficulties of rewriting, seductions of cult narratives, and what it takes to land a manager as a screenwriter. I think we also get into the breakdown of the overwhelming parts of writing and the industry, the script, and how to make it doable with tiny little steps. So if you're into that, please check it out and have a listen.
I'll add more info in the show notes, but you can check your website at jennifrmnebraska.com and at jennifrmne on Instagram. Chicago Film Events is also on Instagram at Chicago Film Events. You can check out and download the app to see everything that's happening in Chicago. It's a very fun and lovely app. Also her short film project, Abby Needs a Friend is able to be followed at instagram at abbyneedsafriend.
Mishu Hilmy (02:17)
So I'll add all that in the show notes and I will stop yapping and rambling and get into this conversation. So hope you enjoy and I'll see you later.
Jennie McMurtry (02:29)
working on a pilot this morning that it's like, I'm in a rewrite of, so yeah, it's an hour long drama and I basically had a really good draft, signed it out last year, like last February, and I got really good feedback on it, but there was just something like not quite right with one of the main characters and I think I just drug my feet on it for so long. And now I'm finally, finally in the rewrite. So that's been really good. Actually, there's something interesting with that. I don't know if you want to go into it.
Like now or?
Yeah, totally. How is that? Returning to something that's a year old can be tough. I think it's great in terms of rewrites because you can see it with fresh eyes and fresh perspective. Stephen King's on writing, wait 12 weeks. But what's that been like? Pros, cons, how's the challenge?
Yeah, I think you hit it right on the nose, like coming back with fresh eyes and because it's a pretty heavy drama, it's got cult bases in it, which a lot of my writing does. But I was having trouble because basically we have the cult leader and the whole idea of the series is about like, how do people join a cult? How do they get sucked in? Like, how do they fall for it? And so it's kind of like Handmaid's Tale meets you.
where we're looking at the world through the perspective of the cult leader. And so I want to get his inner thoughts. And I wanted to kind of explore the question, do cult leaders believe what they say? Or is it all lies? Or at some point, do they not know? Does it kind of blur? So I have the cult here. And then I had an outside member kind of doing her own thing. And it just wasn't meshing well, because they literally are two people who've never met.
Jennie McMurtry (04:14)
And now I have to get them to me while setting up the whole lore of a cult and the whole lore of like this person's outside life and why she would want to leave it. So it was, it wasn't meshing. And what I ended up doing was something I've never done before, but I kind of broke the script into two scripts and I worked on just, so her name's Blair. So I worked on just Blair's story up until she meets the cult. And so I could see chronologically like what she's going through, what's happening. And then I worked on just the cult story.
and then put them back together. Because I kind of already had an outline of like what the scenes and the beats needed to be. And that was actually really, really helpful. Instead of reading a full script and my brain constantly trying to switch back and forth between the two locations, I could write one full story and how they sort of intertwine. And I think that's really helped.
Yeah, I think like those types of exercises, anything that's expanding your knowledge of the world or the people, even if only 5 % or 0 % of it ends up in the final thing, it's like a helpful exercise. And I think it adds to the joy of the writing experience. Because my problem that I've noticed I have when writing more longer narrative works is the narrative becomes this weight, like this
burden and now I'm thinking of like, the contrast of the next scene and it's got to fit within the structure and it just becomes somewhat joyless rather than creating exercise to go, there's no narrative, there's no burden of story, there's no burden of hero myth, there's no burden of this three act of bullshit. And it's like, I'm going to do an exercise of knowing from this person from start to finish, where do they end up? And like, maybe you can uncover a little bit more truth or honesty or understanding of like.
this is the least contrived moment where they might bump into each other or prompt this person to want to change their life dramatically.
Jennie McMurtry (06:00)
Yes, and that's exactly it because instead of it being some random happenstance, it actually became a very calculated move that I couldn't have built from the beginning. Like I've had to work backwards towards it. This all may change, but essentially the cult raises bees and so they sell honey at a farmer's market. And I had a scene where she goes and visits her grandma, you know,
Nice.
Jennie McMurtry (06:26)
The stakes raise, they have a conversation. But I didn't have before was that her grandma's nurse brought a jar of this honey to the house. And then the jar kind of like talks about, they're called resilient. So it's like resilient, saving the world one hive at a time. And, you know, she starts to get like kind of intrigued by like this like special bottle of honey. And it allows the story to kind of naturally happen. And then later on, maybe.
maybe that was planted, know, maybe people were spreading their web, you know, but it could very well not be planted and it could be planted and both of those feel real and genuine, but I couldn't have started out there. I definitely did not start out there.
Right, right. Yeah, I think yeah, like rewrite everything's rewriting and that's like nothing is wasted. It's just save as save as save as like no, sorry, this is an exercise. But the more important thing to me is like, am I like, is this not that it's effortless, but is it enjoyable? Or am I at least present or I'm at least flowing with the problems that I'm like trying to solve by typing. That's that's more important than like, this has got to be right. You know, it's got to be fit the outline or fit the thing well.
Do you ever get to the point, especially towards the end of a writing session, do you ever get to a point where you're like, what I'm writing is actually forced and bad and I'm better to just get up and walk away and come back later?
I don't know. I don't think I have like the idea of like forced and bad at the end of the session. It's more like in the moment I'll literally like use, you know, brackets. All right. Open bracket. I don't know what this scene is. So I'm just going to bullshit it and then close bracket and then move on and just write it versus like trying to put any qualifiers.
Mishu Hilmy (08:06)
at the end of it because it's like, don't know, that might be the thing or it might not be the thing, it's like, just got to let my judge. I'll write my judgment on the page like, wow, this character has no reason for being in this scene. Then I'll continue to write the scene and let that thought exist. The bracket code system works for me because I could just command F and find any bracket in the script and address the note there.
I think it's the letter is AFK. Somebody taught me that once. You can AFK and you can always come back to it. Or in Grey's Anatomy, use the term medical medical. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think you're familiar with that.
Right, right, right.
dialogue or whatever, we'll figure it out. We'll get the expert to you. Yeah. Yeah. I need you to disrupt the judge or the critic because I'm pretty fundamental and it's like there's three phases or there's pre-writing, writing, and rewriting and never the twain shall they meet. So it's like, I am so adamant where I will not hit backspace when I'm writing. It just won't happen.
And then I'll go, all right, this will be fixed in the rewrite. That's like how, like try to fundamental, cause like writing is generative and like, it's like, I don't need to fix this line. It'll fix itself.
Jennie McMurtry (09:19)
Does that include typos or just general, well, you would not be able to read mine if I didn't fix some of my typos as I went by. There's still a ton, like it's not perfect.
Right, right. There have been times where I'm like, don't know what this stage direction is. Wait, which character is this supposed to be? And then I live with it and I'll figure it out.
Yeah, I mean, what if you write even 10 lines of dialogue at the top of a scene that you end up cutting? You had to write those to get to the point. can't just start there. Hardly ever.
Yeah, yeah, that's the beauty of it. Like I remember I went through like an exercise. I wrote like maybe a hundred or like a hundred hundred twenty page feature and it wasn't until like the last ten, twenty pages. this is what the story is. All right. I'll remember that. then when I like rewrite it, I'll get rid of all of this 80 and go like this theme is is the thing. But when it came to like this pilot, like what what brought you back? I might have missed it or I might have forgotten what brought you back to sort of resurrecting this pilot.
Yeah.
Jennie McMurtry (10:18)
A couple of things, the biggest driving factor is I'm trying to get a manager. I think that that is really where I'm at now in my career. And you can get a manager with shorts. It is possible, but it's much more challenging. And so I want to have a couple of features and some pilots under my belt to offer. they need to be very, very polished, right? Well thought out. I can't send this thing that people loved but told me, very glaring details, because they'll notice that.
That's been a big driving factor. Also, just wanting to bring, in general, more writing to Chicago. So that's something that I'm trying to help, like anybody I can talk to about it, the film office, advocates, whoever. It's like finding writer rooms. they've said, OK, well, if you want bring writers rooms, you have to bring scripts that they want to produce and demand that the writers rooms are here. So it's a whole process. Right.
Yeah, it's I mean, the economics of it are very hard, especially TV where it's even higher risk because you don't get any real money until like it's running and there's advertisers who want to pay for it. Like it's great if you get maybe a more subscriber model of like, you know, Netflix, HBO, Apple, but in general for more non streaming, it's like that big risk of do you have a team built that, you know, OK, if you're sort of the fresh writer, then
Who's the risk mitigator? it a season showrunner, season producer?
Mm-hmm. Yeah, obviously it's a lot to consider, a lot down the line, but one step closer is just to simply have the scripts. That's always the biggest part, right? Yeah.
Mishu Hilmy (11:55)
Yeah, so like, so is that kind of step one? or are you doing like a multi-prong approach where you're creating a lead list or maybe potential managers representation, let agent lists like, all right, these are the 10 or 15 or 20 kind of boutiques that I want to connect with, but also before connecting with them, I want my sample packet to be like really, you know, strong and kind of cogent of what my point of view currently is.
Yeah, definitely multi-prong. So first of all, hitting up the festivals when it makes sense, trying to get some eyes there. But even I know people who have been winners at festivals and nobody's knocking down your door. It just kind of shows that you are capable. Maybe potentially you get something from it or get to network at it. And sometimes I do, I network quite a bit and I run into people. I want to be able to just be like, here's a script, send it your way. Like it's good, it's ready to go. But I am trying to break it down.
how to find a manager the same way I break down a script. It's a big task, break it down into small chunks and then like tackle it slowly. So Wednesdays are kind of the days that I do my research and I'm having like an Excel sheet with just their names and a website right now. And then I'll try to dive a little bit deeper as I do the query letters, because those need to be extremely personalized and specific. And if you try to think of like finding all that at once, it's very challenging and it can be overwhelming some days.
for sure, just to be like, do I want to look on IMDB today for people? Do I want to look at the WGA website? Do I want to just Google and see what shows up? It's, but yeah, building the list now and trying to utilize resources people already have for sure.
Yeah, it's the administrative homework that I don't think people who might be more fixated or obsessed with the woo-woo artsy creative, like I am a creator, I am an expresser, I make this, don't think about so much or can miss it because it's like, some folks who might be like, I have this great script, and then like I get cold emails as, maybe a production company of like occasionally scripts, but sometimes people just like wanting money and like, what? Like, who are you?
Mishu Hilmy (14:04)
But that takes homework, right? So go like, these are the 20, 50, 100 people I want to reach out to. I remember I did like a workshop a few months back and this guy was like, no, no cold emails. Do the warm email. So going, this person worked on this project per IMDB and I actually know the DP and go, hey, what's this? Or like, wow, LinkedIn shows that we both came from Nebraska or we both went to the same college. And it's little things of.
Now you're you can warm your email up and go hey, you know, I saw that you also went to the same alma mater I'm not asking for anything. I'm curious. Do you have ten minutes to do like a zoom chat? I'm about to Do this like how did you end up where you are and doing that rather than here's my PDF cold or you know, here's my cold square
Yeah, or I mean, definitely don't send your PDF ever. Like not right away at any great, right? Cold or warm email. Always send the log line and get the permission to send it. But a warm email, absolutely. Anytime somebody reads it out to me, whether it be on Instagram or something, if the first thing they want is something from me, it can be kind of challenging for me to like give it to them. Like it of depends on what it is. But I'm like, oh, the first time you're reaching out is because you want something great.
It just kind of leaves a bad taste in your mouth. Now, to be fair, managers, they want clients. You are an asset to them, but it is about approaching them the right way and finding that connection. Why are you reaching out to them specifically instead of anybody else?
Yeah. Yeah. Like how do you deal with maybe the navigating your ambition or impatience? This might be more of a projection for me, but like what's your tools or tricks for the impatience, the ambition that can come off as like without self-awareness, desperation, right? You get those IGDMs or you get those emails and like what do you want from me? So how do you temper that? Like what are your thoughts around your own sense of, you know, hustle or impatience?
Jennie McMurtry (16:01)
Oh wow. Well, I think for the first two years, you might just be really impatient. Yeah. I don't know if there's a workaround for that. I read it in books. I definitely understood the theory that they're like, it's going to take you a while. Doesn't matter how good of a writer you are, you're not going to write something in your first year and it's just going to be amazing. And I was like, I'll show you. All right. Well, three years later, like I think I am slightly ahead of the curve, but I'm certainly not. Netflix isn't coming and knocking on my door for my stuff, right?
Yeah, yeah.
Jennie McMurtry (16:31)
which I thought for sure that would happen in the first year. So definitely just time and sitting around with other people and talking to other people and listening to their experience, we probably get a lot of the, I'm not doing this fast enough feeling because of the fact that we are comparing ourselves to other people, right? You don't know how long that person's been working on that script. It might be their first script, but maybe it's like a really extremely personal story that they lived through and they didn't really have to think about the world because they lived the world.
you know, that's all time invested. We don't, we don't really know what other people's journey is, but we often see something that makes us feel inadequate. So when I try to slow down and not, you know, be desperate, be thirsty, be like too over projecting, like my worth, really finding out who do I think I am and what do I, what do want that message to be? So you do still want to brag about yourself. I will say that, right? When I say my worst, like brag about yourself.
tell people what you're doing in a way that's like, this is a thing that I'm doing. I'm excited about it. Not so much like, you need to jump on board right now. If you don't, you're going to miss out on everything and you're going to be a loser. Like there's a very different message there.
Totally. Yeah, I mean, I would pitch, you know, bragging, maybe you celebrate, maybe celebrate yourself. Yeah. It's all the same spirit, right? Versus like, you know, hard selling rather than really pointing out like who you are, what you're, you know, bubbling with right now and what you're grateful. And you're like, this is what I've been working on. I'm like genuinely grateful, proud and celebrating it rather than, yeah, I'm tough shit. I'm going to make you money. Like, no, like I believe in the William Wilt Goldman quote, nobody knows anything. And
given how uncertain this industry is. You can't be like, this story is going to be worth X amount of money. It's just not, there's no way. Demands can only be determined once something exists. That's why these social media algorithms are interesting because it gives a sense of what's in demand in the moment and also what might not be making it out that way.
Jennie McMurtry (18:38)
Yeah, right. There's people whose jobs, if they're literal jobs to try to predict the outcomes of these movies and they're not right 100 % of the time. They're just not because you don't know what people are really going to respond to it. you said, media, it's so funny because it also depends on what platform and so many extra little things.
Right. Yeah, it's also, it's like, we're trying to play around with something that's like a thing of scale and it's decentered, right? Like what makes a movie successful is very hard to control. Like it's totally decentered. There's like 4,000 screens across the nation. Like it might be killing in Chicago and dying in Alabama or vice versa, but you can't be sitting in an office in Chicago, LA or New York and go, yes, this story, it's going to kill an out. Like we, like people make decisions off of information they have. And they're like,
My friend said this sucked or the trailer looked lame or Rot Tomatoes gave it a 70%. I'm not gonna part ways with my 1450 and just stay home and watch, you know, YouTube shorts or, you know, Netflix.
Yeah, something familiar that you're like, yeah, can get, I can find comfort in that. Absolutely.
Yeah. So that's that in terms of the pilot. Are you thinking about other things or is that predominant focus right now? like, really want to sharpen this. I want to tie it. I want this to be sort of like material number one for when people ask for some sample.
Jennie McMurtry (20:00)
This one is the priority just to get a really solid draft out so that I can send it to some friends and get the feedback. So while they take the months to read and give me the feedback, I have other scripts that I'm working on for sure. I was asked to partner on a feature. So that's still an early development, but that's been a really fun, different kind of writing style. One of the things I challenged myself with like this last year was to push myself when it came to partnering and doing projects with other people because I...
don't know what it's like. So immediately, sometimes you're like, this is gonna be bad, or this is gonna be hard. But last year, I partnered with a director who had a very specific story in his head, and he wanted somebody to write it. And he kind of already had the locations, the general beats of the story and the characters. And that was really so helpful. Sometimes having like some kind of guidelines, some kind of parameters set up makes the story flow so much easier. And I, and it kind of
like fell out of me that I was like, I want to more of that. So when somebody called me up and is like, hey, I want to partner with you on this feature, they already had the general idea and the outline. And then we were like, going to talk about it after the first draft. I was like, OK, that's different. That's different new task. And so it's still early in that. Read it once, gave notes, and then we discussed like potential changes. And now I'm working on a scene from it. And when I decided what
scene I want to do, I was like, okay, so do I rewrite a scene that already exists? Or you know what, because I felt more comfortable, was like, I'm gonna write a scene that we know needs to get added that doesn't exist. Just because then I'm not rewriting her words. I think eventually we will be rewriting each other's stuff. Like that's how the partnership works. But because it's new, and I was like, a little scary. I was like, okay, what can I do that's a little bit easier on me so it doesn't feel as scary and I still stay motivated instead of, you know.
putting up those breaks because you're scared.
Mishu Hilmy (22:00)
Yeah, I think it's like an interesting approach because it's like you could go, all right, we're doing this partnership, we're doing this, you know, different passes and handing them back and forth or whatnot. But to go maybe for this round as a start, as we're figuring out a relationship, I'll just make my new things versus like, round one fight one is I revised, you know, all of your pages. It's like, maybe in future partnerships, that'll be the thing but
Yeah. For now, like, and that's a choice. And that's like a totally solid like test the waters. And then as it kind of builds a sound momentum, you can be a little bit more, you know, assertive, aggressive back and forth of like what's getting massaged and replaced.
And that's just it is building that that skin, that thick skin a little bit, but also having the confidence in your own ideas and opinions. Because at the end of the day, that is all this is, is ideas and opinions. Anytime I give people notes, I tell them, you know, these are my opinions. Take what resonates. Leave the rest. Like some of it I will defend more than others if I think that there's a serious problem and maybe you should reconsider. But most of it's like, I don't know. So I felt when I was reading it, this is what I saw.
Maybe you like that, maybe you don't. Either way, I'm not offended.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm in service of you. Like, this is how I would approach it, but you don't have to listen to it. Or this is what the red flags that came up and I'm just one person reading this thing and March 4th, 2025. And this is my opinion today. Maybe I was in a bad mood. Maybe I was in a great mood and I glossed it over. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like I'm just like, fagry and angry. Like this, this thing. What's up with this character? Totally. And then did you find like a bit of a that, you know,
Jennie McMurtry (23:27)
Maybe I was hungry.
Mishu Hilmy (23:39)
I think constraints can like breed creativity and maybe also remove ego. So did you find that it was like a freeing to like eliminate the ego of generation creation when you were given a firm outline or firm genre from like, these are the three things or 10 things or scenes or ideas we have. How is that, you know, tackling it?
I loved it, if I'm being honest. It also sped up the process so much because it eliminates so many choices.
Yeah, yeah, and doubts and insecurity.
Yeah, if the world is your oyster, know, like you get overwhelmed with like, what could this be? So when I had the names of the characters, I kind of knew where it was going, but there was still freedom, right? He didn't give me an outline. And even if he had, I still would have written it. It still would be my words. It still would be how I would write it. But like he there wasn't quite an outline. And now with this this new project, it's like we know that we have to go from A to B.
but we might actually be missing a half step. So there is still creativity and creation throughout the whole thing because you still have to connect these two dots or you might have to justify something that happens in Act 3 that's not set up in Act 1. So the creation comes from like, do we then justify what's going on? So it's still a lot of that, but it's a little bit less like, what's my character's name? What's their flaw? Like if you already have that.
Jennie McMurtry (24:59)
now they're in a universe in a world, I think that's one of reasons I'm drawn to pilots so much is being in a writer's room, being told like, this is the scene you need to write, write it. Right. I would, I really like that.
is that collaboration and sort of a degree of decentering. And it's like, all right, you're doing episode three and you're kind of sent off to break in or bring it in and work on it until it's like good enough. Yeah.
And once you get to that point, you as a collective, as a room have gone through so many potential things that could happen. You broke down the story that you're kind of already, all right, I feel like your brain's working in the back, like solving the problems and you get more excited to write it. Like it kind of just flows out then.
Are you finding that that's the world you'd prefer to be working in down the line of serialized, televised shows?
I think so. I obviously haven't worked in one yet. I always think I want to do something and then I do it for a week and I like, maybe that wasn't it. But yeah, I do. I actually maybe it was like 2016. I wrote a book about being a showrunner. And at this point, I hadn't even written a script. I hadn't even written a sketch. Like I had not. I'd written novels and stuff. I was taking improv classes and sketch classes. And I read this book and I said, that's what I want to do.
Jennie McMurtry (26:19)
That combines my creativity and my manager type self. And I told somebody who's worked in Hollywood and he goes, very long ways from where you are now. And I kind of, it wasn't like dismissive. It was just like, okay. And I kind of never thought about it again until maybe like a year and a half ago. And that moment, that book, and I was like, you know what? Yes, that is what I want to do. And I've now taken so many steps towards it.
that it feels more real and I actually understand what it would mean to be a showrunner more than I did just before.
Right? When you just like, were curiously reading it and going like, this is interesting. And now getting, it's a homework that like, I appreciate and respect people who do the homework. And I think you're like the type of person who's sees the bigger picture rather than like, this is the story so important. It's about me and it's about my potential. It's like, okay, yeah, yeah. Like, it's about you and more about the work. Yeah, that's my calling card. That's, that's solid. So given that you were mentioning, okay, Wednesdays is you're kind of more administrative.
You're calling.
Mishu Hilmy (27:26)
business type oriented day? how have you, like what's your typical writing schedule? know like what do you try to permit yourself as you know benchmarks for you know a nice day or a good you know consistent practice?
Right now, I have gotten into the habit of writing between one and three hours pretty much every day, maybe like six days a week. I'm not doing seven days a week. My brain does need to just recharge and I love being a couch potato. I'm a Taurus, so feed me food and let me watch TV for a day. But yeah, really have been like one to three hours and then working on it usually in the morning. I'm very active more in the morning and I like a really slow morning. If I wake up,
Two, like I like to write at nine. So if I wake up at like an eight or something, I was like, not really being as productive. So I wake up at six and I can just do whatever I want between six and nine. It can be doom scrolling. It can be drinking coffee. It can be reading a book, whatever it is. So that way it's like, all right, once nine o'clock hits, I can just focus. Hopefully, you know, if anything's kind of popping into my brain, like, I need to answer that email or I was going to reach out to somebody. I just jot it down and I make a little to-do list for after.
because everything can wait, it really can. And then, yeah, I'll write till about noon, and then I'm like, all right, I should eat food and move on with the rest of my day. I'm in a place right now where most of my income is coming from either working on sets or what I'm doing online. And still working to like amplify that up. But it's been a nice like change of pace, just be like, all right, I can build a writing practice and I can stick to it without getting the random like,
call off or having to also like do the nine to five, which I know is a whole different ball game. But even if somebody were doing a nine to five, like if you're writing half an hour or an hour, like even once a week, if that's all you can do, but you're doing it consistently, like that's what'll lead to like the two hours, the three hour sessions. And then I have a very, very small writing group that we meet the second and fourth Saturday of every month. And
Jennie McMurtry (29:35)
We'll meet like 11 a.m. and we just write until you feel like you're done. So some of those some days I'm there till like 9 p.m. because you're there. You feel the vibes like the coffee's flowing. And some days I'm like, all right, it's two o'clock, guys. I got nothing and I'm out. You know, it just kind of depends on the on the weekend.
Yeah, mean that seems like a really solid practice. I know we mentioned at the filmmaker meetup, just writing practices and consistency is more important than anything. Whether it's two hours, 30 minutes, three hours, I try to go one minute. And I think I wrote like a screenplay in 45 days by just doing like one minute. That would usually bleed to 10 minutes, but that was it. I did like one minute day and after 45 days, all right, I got my 90 pages. Are they any good? It doesn't matter. They've been written.
was a couple years ago you were writing a screenplay a month, right?
Yeah, yeah, it's pretty, pretty, pretty prolific. But I would write, was writing shorts every day. So I wrote like last year, like 60 shorts, something like that. a little bit more, but anything to like make it less precious and do it. But this year it's like, all right, I can, who am I trying to impress? No one, no one, trying to impress no one. So now I'm being more mindful and relaxing and focusing more on things I want to make that I enjoy. But when it comes to like for you writing, how do you deal with the
the cap in hand element of writing, like I have this thing, can someone make it? what steps are you taking to kind of gain autonomy or sort of some degree of control, whether it's producing yourself, like what's been your experience around the, I have a blueprint, but I need someone to like blueprint, like what are you doing to deal with that?
Jennie McMurtry (31:11)
I don't know if this is a unique experience. I hear mixed messaging, but usually when I have a script, I've already talked about the log line with a lot of people. And I kind of gauge that people are interested in that log line. Maybe before I prioritize it as the script that I'm writing. Not to say I will never write it, but I was like, okay, people are really drawn to this idea. So that way, when the script is ready and I start talking to people about it.
Like I have people, let me read it. maybe I want to be part of that project. Like people, especially in the Chicago film people are phenomenal. Like they want to work. They want to get in on everything. They want to be part of it. So finding the people hasn't necessarily been the biggest issue, right? Finding funding has kind of been the blocker, but to mitigate that, and especially as a writer, I want to have so many projects going on, especially shorts. I need to have more than one short a year.
If I only have one short under my name a year, it's going to be extremely hard to break out. So last year I was like, how many projects can I get people to say yes to, to make? And then kind of taking each script and each group of people and my own time commitment and deciding how much do I actually need to be involved, right? And how much can I let go? Because when you let go and let people do their own amazing collaborative thing, it's really interesting.
So I have, let's see, one in post right now, one in the funding stage, one that it should be starting production next month. I think the day got pushed back a little bit. And then another one that it's mostly developed where we're eating on a couple of really specific key things to happen. And then that will go into production. And each of those projects has a different person in charge. And I am not the person in charge on any one of them. Like I can't be.
Yeah, yeah, I think it's I just I think it's such a for me like a fascinating approach because maybe it's like my own neurosis of like being from more the writing directing side where it's like someone here would be very hard for me to want to direct someone else's script right now. So I think like how do you find those partnerships or those relationships or gauge people who would be interested, you know, like maybe I'd be interested in directing something you've written, but
Mishu Hilmy (33:34)
What's your approach? the time you take finding, hey, are you into this? What's been successful? What hasn't been successful? And in terms of building those partnerships or collaborators, the directors, producers, and you're like, let them lead it, let them drive it.
It's literally just talking about your script in a conversation like we're doing now. Like I'm not trying to sell my friends on my script. Like, no, they want to read it or they don't. Like you've got to have really good friendships and genuine real friendships. And then you're going to know who those people are and you're going to know if they're interested in it or not. Like I have director friends who probably don't want to know fans. probably don't want to direct a woman led thriller drama.
but they'd be super down to direct my comedy pot-driven thing or something. They're two very different stories and directors have their own sensibilities, their own style, their own preferences, and that's totally fine. So I think that's the first thing is network, be genuine, be real. I was talking to a film friend the other day and I said, wait, do we talk about anything that's not film related because we pretty much just talk about film stuff and that's totally fine?
And you need to have some people like that in your corner. You don't need a ton, you know, it's like just enough to keep you like in the industry and active on it. I am, I have reached out to producers. So if you watch an indie show, especially something here in Chicago that you like, reach out to the producers, reach out to the directors and say like, I really dug that thing you did and what.
was so cool about it and be like, you looking for more projects? And if they say yes, great. This is what my story is about. Do you want to read the script? Always giving them the chance to say yes or no, instead of just throwing it all at them. Be like, hey, I really liked your movie. Here's my script. Will you make it for me? Like, that's not the vibe. And I'm going to reach out to a production company now. I just got rejected from a festival now. And now I have.
Mishu Hilmy (35:43)
rejected from a parasite? Wait, wait, wait, wait.
Wait, No, this one was legit that it was free and they were just going to give you money. Like literally they were like, here's a grant to make your day. And so of course I submitted three scripts because, huh? What's that? Right. Yeah. Put your name in that. So I submitted three scripts, which unfortunately, if you submit three scripts, you might get rejected three times. Even though my brain, was like, all three of my films are going to get made.
Put your name in the hat.
Jennie McMurtry (36:10)
So now I have three scripts that I need to shop around and I kind of want to do it a little bit differently than what I have been and maybe try to find the money first and see. And so I'm doing some different avenues, really asking people, like, do you know people who are buying scripts? know, like, do know people who are trying to do that? Because I'm a really firm believer if people are getting paid on set, the script.
should have some kind of monetary value, you know? Like, I'm not talking millions.
Yeah, yeah.
They're here to tell the story, know, agreed. That makes sense. I think maybe that's why it's like I go the writing directing around is like, it's one less thing I need to license an option and, you know, put a fee toward. it's just like, I I enjoy writing and it's easy to generate it. But there's that cost element to but yeah, if you're finding like, well, the cam ops being paid and the actors are being paid. But the script that I spent X number of hours is just sort of like, this is the thing we get to play with and you're not.
But how do you set those expectations? is it, again, like when it's at the friend level or sort of the, the more indie zero budget conversation level, there's more of maybe a buy-in of just being excited. It's like, yeah, let's do this. Let's make it. And we're all kind of in it at zero budget. None of us are taking fees. Like how would you go about expectations when it comes to these, you know, a short, say you want, what would you want it produced?
Jennie McMurtry (37:36)
Right, and that's really the projects I currently have. Right, that's kind of the bucket that I'm in right now. Right. So those are also like calling in favors for sets that you work on. that's more of an exchange, which is totally fine. It's what the indie film is like, absolutely. But it's like, if I'm reaching out to a third party that I haven't had that relationship with, that's like, all right, you know, just asking them, like, is this something you do? If not, can it be? If you're going to raise funds, just put my writers fee.
in there, you know what I mean? And even here, it's like, we're we're start raising funds for our own sets, and this is something that has been talked about on like a higher level is when you're raising your funds, do you think about your own fees, right? We want to raise funds to pay people on set, but raise funds for yourself too. Like you should be able to pay yourself if you want this to be something sustainable and something that you're doing as a career, that's part of it. And especially the last couple of years work has been
really slow, right? I don't know about for you, but just a general feeling of like, slow, not a ton of work, because we used to be able to do these larger projects, these commercial projects, and then say yes to the to the to the indie things on the weekend, because it wasn't a financial burden. But now it's like, I don't have I don't have the the freedom that I used to have to say yes to that kind of thing. And still figuring it out. Like, I don't have all the answers. By any means, love to come back in six months and be like, this really worked.
guys do this thing. I am trying one unique thing in terms of funding that I'm really stoked about. And that is finding funding through sponsorship, which is a very doable and easy thing to do. But so many filmmakers like whether you're doing an event or you're doing like a production, all of your thought and time and process is going into making that event to making that production.
to now be like, all right, we'll go find sponsors for it too. That's a whole different ballgame, a whole different skillset. So I've kind of started that, had our first sponsor at an event last weekend, brought in some great non-alcoholic beverages and hopefully, getting more sponsors at our events will then lead to sponsors on set, whether it's product or fiscal.
Mishu Hilmy (39:53)
Yeah, it's building those relationships and seeing is this something they're interested in. Yeah, what start says, yeah, you're it sounds like a fun, impactful event that is reaching an audience in Chicago where we want to connect with folks and they're providing in kind donations. And then maybe that bleeds into in kind donations for crafty on set. And maybe that bleeds into, yeah, we'll drop X amount of money for this thing considering we built that relationship. Yeah. But the thing is like.
there are people who just want to do their writing, right? And maybe we're similar in that we're curious about the overall, the overarching picture. So we're learning about the business side and the administrative side. But for people who just like, just want to write, then it's very hard because you're not thinking of how do I get the money? How do I get the sponsorship? How do I get the partnerships? You're just like, why won't anyone make this story I have? Rather than like maybe folks like you and me who are.
Enjoy the creative side, but also maybe feel tapped in or responsible or beholden to something that isn't all creativity as well.
Yeah, and I think you said something really great there was like, why won't people make the script that I wrote? And even if you are someone who just wants to write, and you want, know, you don't want to be on set, you don't want to think about the financials of it, you still need to make scripts that are producible at the level of people that you think will make it, right? So don't write the huge exploding scene with the car chase, if you can afford a fake like dummy knife, like write the dummy knife scene.
Get your stuff made, make it it producible for the people that want to help you because they do, but they might look at it and be like, this is a $7 million project. I don't have that. Yeah.
Mishu Hilmy (41:32)
Yeah, it was like free like this thing. It's like the blank canvas. You have free total creativity You can do what you want and you know, I think boundaries can make focus and creativity one one challenging thing is like having made productions there is this like impulse at the first draft level which I'm trying to fight against but still like man, I just did a bunch of Cuts to different
locations, maybe I need to simplify this. So it's just like interior garage rather than exterior this interior, thing like, oh man, I don't want to add, add more locations, but I don't like it's a blessing and a curse to think about production budgets, but it got to be, I guess, strategic about it.
Yeah, to an extent, right? Do you really need 50 extras in the scene? You know, if you're writing a church scene, you're gonna need a lot of extras. Does it have to be there? Can it just be them talking to the pastor in his quarters or something, you know, and still have the same effect? But on a first draft, wouldn't worry about that. Not on a first draft at all. Get it out. Get it out. I heard a Go ahead. Yeah, I heard a great quote the other day and it was like,
a first drafts only job is to exist.
Exactly. Yeah. I think I prefer rewriting because there's even more deeper creativity and there's more fun problem solving. The first draft is hard and fun, I think I like, the problem is I want to get to revising, but to get there, need to at least get that the first draft.
Jennie McMurtry (43:06)
Yeah, because the revising, you're right, it's the fun part. It's when you're like, but what if I this little Easter egg over here and then, but this dialogue pops so much better because now we know it's motivated by this other thing. And it feels so much more fun. I had a couple of moments like that today where I was like, yeah, that makes sense. That's really cool.
Yeah. Like, I think you're pretty sharp and like, what's like, what is it? You seem like you would write in direct. So are you just not interested in directing right now? Or is that something you're unlikely to be interested in? Like, where's what's what's been preventing you from say helming something?
Really, the more time I spend on set, the less time I'm writing. That's long and short of it. People have, I mean, people tell me I should direct or like whatever, and that's great. And I probably will someday, but I tend to be the kind of person that when I get interested in a hobby or something, I go all in, I'm gonna take a course, I'm gonna read books. Like you said, you mentioned earlier, and I was like, I'm already doing that.
I get yeah.
Jennie McMurtry (44:10)
for writing, I'm already doing that for content creation. If I add directing on top of that, I will get spread so thin. know, that being said, I did pseudo direct a scene recently and I was like, I could see it, which I was afraid I wouldn't be able to see in my head because I could never direct sketches that I wrote. I was like, I don't know, stand up, sit down. Like, what can you do on stage? There's like three things you can do. that was, yeah, right. And I was like, so.
Stanley
Jennie McMurtry (44:41.014)
It was really cool to get that little moment because I knew the scene, right? I knew what needed to happen and just had to step in for a minute and do it.
Yeah, I think that's responsible, right? To know yourself, know that there's only so much time. I think writing is one of those things where if you love it and you can sort of proliferate it versus if you, even if you're like, I'm gonna get eight shorts produced and directed this year by a variety of partnerships, but two of them, you're the one who's directing it. like, all right, those are two, four, 10 days you're gonna be on set and then pre-production and all that. I think I love post, I love editing, but.
And you're finding the team and you're corralling the team, especially on an indie level, a lot falls on the director to kind of get people motivated and going for it.
Yeah. When it comes to your writing right now, like how much effort or time do you put into thinking about either vulnerability or risk taking? Like, you know, is this a project that I feel nervous about? Does this feel like I'm taking a swing? Am I revealing or like, do I feel uncomfortable about this? Like how conscious are you of like taking risks within your writing practice?
That's a great question. I once had somebody tell me, this was really sad, was like, people don't invite me to parties, they don't remember me. And he goes, Jenny, you don't create enough drama for people. You're very nice, like it's great to have you around, but you don't create enough drama to be like the front of someone's mind. This was many years ago and I was like.
Mishu Hilmy (46:14)
you're toxic Jenny.
I know, I was like, how true, okay, I'm too much of a people pleaser. So I am trying to take just more definitive risks. And if I'm gonna take a risk, I wanna be able to back it up, right? I don't ever wanna punch down, I don't wanna ever hurt people with my writing. I'm very adamant, especially when it comes to women represented in film, like how are we representing these women? Who are they full human beings outside of their relationship with the male protagonist?
they the protagonist, you know, like that kind of thing. Crazy. So when I when I take risks, my gosh, there was actually a word today that I was like, do I use this word for this man? I googled it. I was like, you know, I think I'm going to use it because it's a singular word for exactly who this person is. And it's dimwitted.
Fear of a hat?
Jennie McMurtry (47:08.066)
characters just dimwitted. Like, it's a good word. I would never want to intentionally call somebody stupid, but this character kind of just needs to be easy peasy, easy to mold like clay. Right. And the singular word is going to get that point across. Also, I'm seeing shameless. Shameless? Well, no spoilers, but they do not care what you think. They don't. They don't care what you think. And as long as it stays true to the character.
I will see you
Mishu Hilmy (47:30.824)
yeah.
Jennie McMurtry (47:36.276)
then it makes sense, we forgive it, we laugh along with it, we're offended a little bit, but it's done in such a comical way that I think it really works.
It's the integrity of the writing, right? And I think there's like a daring, if you create a world, especially in TV or character or group of characters where this is who we are depicting and who they are, there's integrity in sort of playing with that. And there's daring and kind of mischief and courage. Well, this is what we think this person would say. And like, how do you...
How do you have an anchor? How do you react to it? Like there's no right or wrong in it. It's just like everything has its price. But I think, yeah, like unlikable characters, love unhinged, unlikable characters are interesting, but they're also, think, challenging, challenging to do well.
love writing Unhinged Women. Love it. It's my favorite. It's also important too, when you're thinking about like taking risks, like we also have to think like the political spectrum and diverse groups and different people and so many, like so many tropes exist that are hurtful to different sex of people and the more interesting thing to do instead of being like, no, I'm going to back this up.
Yeah, yeah, yeah
Jennie McMurtry (48:51.774)
more interesting thing to do is to twist that trope on its head and catch us off guard with something new and different instead of just kind of following, you know, what's what's already been done. There's an entire documentary that was done here in Chicago. I think it was UIC called my gosh, I cannot. It's a I can't think of the name of it now. I'll have to get back to you on it. But the entire thing. Yeah, it's a band of
the disabled people.
Jennie McMurtry (49:21.381)
Oh, think it's called the band of freaks. Yes, right. So you saw that. So they they talked about people.
Yeah, I that. I think it was at Midwest.
Mishu Hilmy (49:30.934)
cut of all the Oscar-winning movies was pretty sad.
It's so sad and how disabled people are represented on screen and depending on their gender and their race, they're represented differently and they really broke it down. that documentary really changed the way that I write my, especially my villains, or I might critique people where they're like, well, it turns out that they just needed medication and everything would have been fine. So, you know, they have some kind of mental illness. And I was like,
that's the most interesting thing you could come up with for the motivation of this character. There's way more interesting things, you know? So it's been a fun challenge to change up.
Yeah, I mean, I think it's not particularly thoughtful to just use pathology as motivation. Well, they had a trauma or they had a disease. No, they're a villain because their arm was cut off and they're disabled and only if they could be whole, made whole by having all these weird superhero origin stories. Yeah, it's a pretty not very thought out. Yeah, so like given how just to wrap things up.
Given the uncertainty of this craft, this art, this business, what keeps you motivated, what keeps you engaged? Seeing how it's very timely, costs a lot of time, costs a lot of money, costs a lot of soul points, energy, emotion. with all the wild uncertainty, how do you stay with it? How do you stay motivated?
Jennie McMurtry (50:57.388)
They mostly motivated because these ideas keep coming to me and I really want them to exist and they can't exist until I finish these other three ideas that I'm already working on. So really my motivation does come from inspiration of ideas and stories and things that happen and making a list of that so it doesn't just get lost in the etherverse. have a little notes app.
that's just called Weird Human Things. So when I see something or I hear a particularly interesting piece of dialogue, right, somebody's talking to somebody, I write it down in that notes app. And then I was like, people won't even know that this really happened because it seems so absurd. So finding ways to put that in has been really, really motivating. And then just being around people, talking about it. You can feel isolated as a writer.
And so you need to get out and interact with other people to remind you like, someday these words will become a vision and it's going to connect with somebody. And that's going to be really cool.
That's great. Well, Jenny, thank you so much for sharing and it's been an absolute pleasure to talk
Thank you and have a great night.
Mishu Hilmy (52:13.038)
Before sending you off with a little creative prompt, I just wanted to say thank you for listening to Mischief and Mastery. If you enjoyed this show, please rate it and leave a review on iTunes or wherever you listen to podcasts. Your support does mean a lot. Until next time, keep taking care of yourself, your lightness, curiosity, and sense of play. And now for a little mischief motivation.
Okay, prompt time some bracket and bullshit next time you get stuck writing a scene or writing something or outlining something or maybe even painting something try this if you're feeling lost just a Drop some brackets and within the brackets, right? I don't know what this is yet But I'm gonna write something bad and continue or whatever, you know, and then close the bracket and that's it so instead of getting stuck on the problem you just
Start a bracket, make it parenthetical. Right. I have no idea what this piece of shit is and I'll figure it out later. Close the bracket and move on. Get past the perfectionism. Try and stay in that flow. You're offloading that sort of cognitive load pressure to solve everything now. Also permission to be imperfect. A little bit of self-compassion theory. That's Kristin Neff. It's also great to just reframe procrastination. It lowers the threats of the task by making it playful, exploratory.
of a high stakes demand. use bracketing, trust that you will get to it eventually instead of getting absolutely stuck. So if you're feeling lost, stuck in a scene, in an outline, or maybe even tried in different projects, maybe on a sound mix, you record a little voice note saying, I don't know what this is yet, but I'll figure it out later. And move on, keep moving on and have a good rest of your day. Thanks for listening.