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We’re reflecting on some of the conversations POCACITO was fortunate to be a part of, four of which we want to share with you. Two of these talks took place as part of POCACITO events, and two are one-to-one interviews.
One thing that kept coming up is that the critical work of environmental and climate justice is happening at the local level. And it’s being led by civil society.
We met with community organizers and activists from Kyiv; Berlin; St. James Parish, Louisiana; and Superior, Arizona, to learn what this work looks like, and how we can help.
Electronic music track X1 by frankum -- https://freesound.org/s/426470/ -- License: Attribution 4.0
Hello, and welcome. I'm Max Grunig here with Brennan O'Donnell. It's 12/31/2024.
Speaker 2:As the year comes to an end, we're reflecting on some of the conversations Pocacido was fortunate to be a part of, four of which we want to share with you. Two of these talks took place as part of Pocacido events, and two are one to one interviews.
Speaker 1:One thing that kept coming up is that the critical work of environmental and climate justice is happening at the local level, level, and it's being led by civil society.
Speaker 2:We met with community organizers and activists from Kyiv, Berlin, Saint James Parish, Louisiana, and Superior, Arizona to learn what this work looks like and how we can help.
Speaker 1:Our first conversation is with Kostya and Tim Krinitzky from the Ukrainian NGO EcoAction. In the years preceding Russia's twenty twenty two full scale invasion of Ukraine, worked with the country's eastern coal regions for a just transition of the energy system. Since the invasion, his work has shifted with a focus on the resiliency potential of distributed renewable energy.
Speaker 2:Max talked with Kostya at the June 2024, August after missiles first started striking Kyiv.
Speaker 3:Okay. Hi, Kostya. So, thank you so much for taking time to talk with me today. We're recording this on Sunday, 06/30/2024. So it's the June.
Speaker 3:It's also the last day of the first half of the year. Right? So it's kind of a milestone. It's a very wild year. It's a lot happening, and we we are not going to speculate, but there's more more happening in this year for sure.
Speaker 3:I I want to hear maybe first a little bit about what you are doing, what your focus is, and also what what you're what drives you to do what you're doing. You know? Because this this is a very unique take on on on how to address the war. And maybe you can yeah. Maybe just tell us a little bit about your your work personally and the work of eco action in Ukraine.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Thank you, Max. Thank you for for the invitation. I'm really glad to be here and speaking with you. So, yeah, generally, like, EcoXion is one of the biggest Ukrainian environmental NGO.
Speaker 4:And before the start of the full scale invasion of Russia, we have been focusing on advocacy of a more ambitious climate and energy policy in Ukraine. So, basically, switching to renewables, coal phase out, nuclear phase out, climate adaptation measures. We also work on sustainable agriculture with small farmers. So, basically, we have been covering this kind of, like, big, actually, big sliver of climate work. When the invasion happened, of course, there was this kind of we took a minute, maybe even more than a minute, to actually stop and reassess what makes sense doing because we understood that there is a full scale work happening and maybe the topics of climate and energy are not very prevalent, especially in 2022.
Speaker 4:But we very quickly understood that all that we have been doing beforehand, basically, it all can come under the this big umbrella of green reconstruction. So, basically, to reconstruct Ukraine to help the Ukrainian recovery in a more sustainable way. Russia has been destroying our energy infrastructure, our housing, and our different towns and all regions. So we need to think about more how to how to reconstruct it more sustainably and also using green technologies focusing on energy efficiency, focusing on renewables, not investing more into what came before into fossil fossil fuels. And you can imagine Ukraine also has a huge housing stock built in the fifties, in the sixties, in the seventies in The Soviet Union, which is very energy efficient.
Speaker 4:So it doesn't make sense to reconstruct it as it was before. So, basically, what we have been doing is advocating for this kind of reconstruction for all the money and resources that Ukraine gets and will get to to spend them on more green and sustainable and and and better solutions than it was before. So that's the the general information in I'm I'm the head of energy department. So we work on forming topics on distributed generation of renewables on the local level, on the community level, on energy efficiency in buildings. Coal phase out, and we work with coal communities in throughout all of Ukraine in five different regions.
Speaker 4:And our most, let's say, difficult campaign is nuclear phase out and preparation for the commission. So, basically, we continue doing this work, especially now we are focusing on energy security. And I would say that, like, you can imagine, I have been working for years. So I joined the collection in 2018, so it's been six and a half years, basically, that I have been working on this topic. And, currently, it's not like, what sells it more to people and and in inside of the country is not the question of climate change or bring down pollution, but security of supply and energy resilience of Ukrainian communities.
Speaker 4:Russia specifically targets our energy infrastructure, our generation capacities this year in March, April, and and and May and June. Russia still continues to target our coal power plants. So 80 to 90% of our coal generation has been either completely destroyed or damaged that you need actually many years to to to repair. So we don't have our cogeneration. So even now, I'm sitting in Kyiv.
Speaker 4:It's 30 degrees Celsius, and we have electricity cutoffs. We have a schedule. Sometimes it's unscheduled, so it's it's only June. But situation in the winter, you'll get far, far, far worse and difficult. And that's why now for people, it's more understandable in the question of, oh, actually, we we get electricity from somewhere.
Speaker 4:We have heating from somewhere, and it's very important to to prepare for for for the winter and for critical social infrastructure, like hospitals, water utilities, schools. So now people are also thinking about renewables and energy efficiency as a solution. So you you like, you can imagine, we have been advocating for that for years and years before the start of the full scale invasion. But currently, because of the destruction, because of Russia's war, it's something more understandable and clearer to understand for people. And we have a spike of interest, and, actually, now everybody talks about it.
Speaker 4:Like, our president talks about renewables, our prime minister, and instead of energy. So so these kind of messages are out there. And what we are trying to do is kind of on the one hand, we are talking very much very much with our international partners for I
Speaker 3:I like
Speaker 4:to call it, like, the greening of the emergency aid because currently, Ukraine gets a lot of generators, a lot of gas turbines to help survive the winter. And, of course, like, we don't advocate against that because now we are in a situation of the survival of the country. We need everything, actually, to have like, we need all the nuclear that we have and all the coal capacities that still exist. But, also, why can we also use this situation to diversify the supply and also bring to Ukraine not only generators, but also heat pumps for heating, also solar panels, and battery storage? So that's what we have been communicating for the past two years with German government, American government, Swiss government.
Speaker 4:So, basically, like, all the governments that where we have contacts and where we establish new contacts, we are trying to advocate for that. On the other hand, in Ukraine itself, many NGOs are now trying to show the possibilities and, like, trying to implement concrete projects on the ground. So for example, a connection with Greenpeace did install a heat pump and solar panels and battery storage at a very, like not like a, basically, small clinic outside of Kyiv. It was damaged when Russians were trying to advance on Kyiv in March 2022. So the municipality kind of rebuilt the place, and we and Greenpeace installed heat pumps and solar panels and battery storage to show that this kind of project's available, that they already work, that they can help already now and not wait in some, like, five years or ten years in the future.
Speaker 4:And we have many NGOs, like, for Ukraine, Repowl Ukraine, that are doing this kind of work throughout all of Ukraine. So they are helping Ukrainian communities to, first of all, develop technical documentation, like feasibility studies, project and design documentation, and then help install these capacities at critical social infrastructure. So, basically, we're talking about hospitals. We're talking about water utilities, and we're talking about schools and kindergartens. So this this kind of work has been very prevalent for the past two years, but it's also like, I also like to mention and highlight that what NGOs are doing, especially, like, EcoXion and EcoCo op and others who were not focusing more on installation.
Speaker 4:So we were more, like, focusing on advocacy, bring people together, communication campaigns, stuff like that. But what we have been doing with this installation, it's not because like, it's not from a good life. So it's it it was it was because, like, a response of the war. And if the war didn't happen or Russia didn't decide to invite as they did, we won't be doing this kind of concrete projects on the ground. So that brings another question that is not really sustainable.
Speaker 4:So Ukrainian and just cannot cover all of Ukraine and can cannot cover each hospital and hotel and stuff like that. So the next step, what we have been doing is advocating on the international and national level for more sustainable solutions. So, basically, saying that, okay. And just doing this, yeah, it's good, but we need actually more sustainable options for the scaling up. And we have been talking about new financial mechanisms because the biggest problem for Ukrainian communities is finances.
Speaker 4:So Ukrainian communities actually don't have enough money to implement this kind of projects by themselves. And communication is IFI's with different banks, with different governments to advocate for the creation of new financial mechanisms where Ukrainian communities can come directly and apply and receive the help, being grants, being soft loans in Ukrainian currency, being some kind of combination between a loan and a grant, that can really help because many communities are already understanding that this this is the option. Like, this can really help. We have been doing work on the international level to advocate for the establishment of energy communities. So European Union has this, like, legislation for development of energy communities.
Speaker 4:Ukraine doesn't. But these kind of communities can also this kind of structure, this kind of, like yeah. The the this kind of mechanisms can really help Ukrainian communities and help not only through the lenses of climate and and and and and bring down pollution levels, but helping more concretely to to supply electricity and heating for for five block of buildings or several buildings. So these kind of definitions, we don't have. So we have been talking and also using the example that look, Ukraine is already the candidate member to the European Union.
Speaker 4:Now we are starting, like, opening the discussions about joining the EU official discussions. So we need to bring our legislation closer to the European Union one. So I think the the the this this currently will be something also more understandable and and on the agenda of our government that it than it was, like, five or ten years ago. And we have been also talking about sustainable solutions in the sense that currently, NGOs are developing, like, helping develop technical documentation. But it's also not very, very we cannot do it indefinitely.
Speaker 4:So we know that different countries have different services for that. We know that Germany has so called energy advisers who are being, like, people professional people who are getting paid from the national government, federal government, or KFW, the German development ban. And they are helping. Like, if I'm a like, I live in a household and I want to develop some kind of technical documentation or I'm I own a business, so I can go to these certified energy advisers, and they can help. So we have been also talking and thinking about some some kind of this kind of mechanisms for Ukraine going forward because, otherwise, the Ukrainian enjoys and just the government itself cannot cover and help overall.
Speaker 4:So I would say our work has been focused on this kind of on the one hand, it changed. It's changed definitely with terms of advocacy. But on the other hand, like, the the topic is still there. The distributed generation of renewables bring down the consumption, energy efficiency in buildings, but now it plays well and it plays better to the narrative of security and energy efficiency and energy resilience of Ukrainian communities due to the war. Like, we can also contribute as a society to the war against Russia, not only being on the frontline, but also bringing down, like, helping our energy system, transforming our energy system, make it make it more like, make it harder for Russians to continue destroying it.
Speaker 4:Because there, now we see the dangers of Ukrainian energy system, which is very centralized. We have big coal. We have big nuclear, and it's very easy to actually disrupt it when Russia continues to target our generation capacities, transmission capacities, and and and other infrastructure.
Speaker 3:So so many so many things you're working on is really amazing. I mean, especially given the the difficult circumstances in in many ways because you mentioned the power constraints. So just very practically, so how many hours of electricity do you have approximately on a day now?
Speaker 4:Oh, now it it really depends. So I think in in my flight, I'm one of the lucky ones because we don't really have that that mind that much of cost of electricity, but I have colleagues at the collection who have, like, live for nine, ten hours without electricity a day. So it's it's divided into different intervals. So, basically, four hours there, four hours there, but it's still it's still like that in its own nature. Sometimes it's small.
Speaker 4:When we have some unscheduled problems or the new Russian attack, so then it can and, like, the the the schedule goes out the window, and we don't actually know when it'd be repaired and and, like, electricity supply resumes. But, yeah, on average, it's like sometimes it can be four hours without electricity sometimes, and more often, it's eight and a little bit more.
Speaker 3:And so you mentioned already a lot of the emergency aid is based on generators running on fossil fuels. Yeah. So is that a thing when you walk in the street? Do you do you hear that or you see that? Yeah.
Speaker 4:Yeah. It's it's actually like actually, it's very hot currently in my flat, but I closed the window because you can actually hear from my apartment the generator. So we have, like, a flat that goes, like, in two different directions. So we have windows going through the yard and into the street. And from white one one side, we have generators.
Speaker 4:Also, you can hear it and from the other side. So when you go to Kyiv in Kyiv and you walk down the street, all the small businesses, be it hairdressers or just shops that need refrigeration for their fridges, they they they have their own small generators, and you can hear it. You can smell it. It's it's kind of yeah. It's it's kind of like the new the new sound that you hear in Ukraine and and became kind of normal.
Speaker 4:I remember in 2022 and 2023 when the first, like, electricity cutoff started, I sat in my flat. I didn't have electricity, and I just walked outside of my building. And I walked to the sound of the generator because I'm I knew that, oh, there is a cafe. They have generator. They have Wi Fi.
Speaker 4:They have electricity because of that. So I can sit there and work and communicate and go on calls, on interviews, stuff like that. So it's it's, yeah, it's kind of, I would say, be kind of it kind of became the new normal, and it's very strange and crazy to understand how quickly people can adapt to things and mentally and also, like, also bringing all this equipment into into the fold and connecting and and and continue working. Because it's also the big question of Ukrainian economy because, otherwise, it it it can be a huge blow to our economy, which already has, like, it's standing. Like, it's it's I'm it's it's I'm amazed, actually, that we can actually have, like we still we still have, like, restaurants.
Speaker 4:You can go to a restaurant and order some food. You can go to a cinema and watch some latest, like, American movie. It's still working, but it's still we need so much of adaptation into that and so much work and so much, like, resilience to actually continue working and and and and and supplying and being able to actually do that.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Indeed. And and people were also really impressed that Ukraine managed to send a team to the European soccer championship. And Oh, yeah. So I'm sorry you didn't you didn't get to go further, but it is already just being there.
Speaker 3:It's huge, you
Speaker 4:know, in
Speaker 3:the setting.
Speaker 4:And you know about, like, yeah, currently, there are Euro twenty twenty four, and it was so much painful. Like, it wouldn't be so painful if Ukraine lost to Belgium, like, six zero or six one or five one. But, actually, we had the same amount of points every team in the group. It was it's the most painful example.
Speaker 3:No. That was very, I would say, almost bad luck. But, I mean, in any case, it was it was definitely, like, a a good sign also for the world to see the Ukrainian team.
Speaker 4:The resilience. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Yeah. And and also, like, speaking even up about our football team, they also send a very good mess message because I saw someone on the social media, they created this kind of video where they presented themselves, and they say from which town they are from. And then they intercut that from the, like, Russian invasion where they are targeting these specific towns. So many press are from Eastern Ukraine, from Donetsk region where the fuse is fighting is going on.
Speaker 4:Some who are from the Kyiv region with or Chernigiv region, Sumer region, which was also targeted by Russians in 2022, someone from Kharkiv. So it was like the the the intercut and showed, like, okay. But we are still here. We are still here. We are resilient.
Speaker 4:We we want to play. We want to represent our country and make people happy in Ukraine.
Speaker 3:Yeah. No. That's that's really, I think, very important also because we we need of course, you mentioned the international support is very important, and that requires this constant reminder for for many people and because politicians also react to public opinion, and so public opinion reacts to media. And so being on the TV, it's it's very it's very valuable, very good. And I think what you mentioned, the change in the opinion in within Ukraine towards more favorable towards renewables, I found it really interesting in the Ukraine plan as we as we have it now, there was very relatively modest goals for renewables increase.
Speaker 3:But I think now this is kind of already history in a way, if I understand it correctly. And maybe what's your what's your hope for how much is possible and how quickly would it be possible?
Speaker 4:That's a great question because, like, I I don't also want to paint, like, a very bright and, like, picture that everybody in Ukraine was in use. It's not like that. But now people more think about them as a solution because it's like, given other options, it's cheaper and more quicker to install them. Like, you cannot build, like, small modular reactors, nuclear reactors in each, like, town. So it's not really possible of thinking about big gas capacities.
Speaker 4:So renewables are kind of what people can understand, and they say, oh, yes. Sun, we have sun, we have panels, we have batteries, maybe that can actually work. So I'll say it it definitely changes because of the speed and because of the cost that actually it it all entails. Regarding our national plans, I would say, like, we it's it's has been the problem for Ukraine for years before even before the start of the invasion because our government has always and our national documents has have always looked like this kind of wish list or shopping list from different stakeholders. So when we are talking about our energy system or our strategic documents, try to prioritize everything.
Speaker 4:So new nuclear, yes. New gas capacities, yes. New oil, yes. Renewables, also, yes. Energy efficiency, double, yes.
Speaker 4:Everything except coal. So, basically, in Ukraine, everybody understands that coal is kind of finished. They won't be invested in coal. But, otherwise, there is all this plethora of different options that our government is pursuing. And one of the and it and it's actually, like, if you take into into the account all these kind of plans and Ukraine has huge plans for nuclear.
Speaker 4:So nuclear capacities with Americans, with Western House, with different with these other countries, it doesn't paint when you make out all these plans and try to paint a coherent picture how our energy system will look like in '20, '30, 40, or '50. It doesn't and doesn't it it it it doesn't look well because we have all these different plans that don't actually connect. So what I think this one of the biggest problems and what we have been doing and we'll continue to be doing to press for faster integration of renewables and installation of renewables, but also energy efficiency measures. So bring down the consumption, then talking about the rapid development of renewables. Because, otherwise, we have all this talk and all this, like, political talk from our government, from the Ministry of Energy that we'll be the we will be developing ever since.
Speaker 4:So if there are countries who are willing to help Ukraine with nuclear like Americans, Ukraine says yes. If there are countries willing to help with renewables like Germany, Ukraine says yes. So it kind of it kind of goes into this different absolutely different directions because when we are talking about nuclear, it's it's a question of a more centralization of our energy system. So new big nuclear units, be it from Western House or being from the units from the failed Bulgarian projects that you in Berlin that Ukraine wants to buy from Bulgaria, it all creates this more it centralizes our energy system even more. At the same time, our government talks about decentralization and talks about renewables and talks about the gas turbines.
Speaker 4:So these kind of messages, they don't actually connect, and they they they they are very much in in opposition to each other. So I really hope that also focusing and advocating and talking to our government and international partners about renewables, focusing on a more rapid development of renewables in the next couple of years and the next, like, five years, we'll actually potentially solve the problem with all these talks about nuclear because we won't be needing so much capacity new capacities because we will be already covered with renewables and with battery storage and with with with with energy efficiency measures. But but funnily enough, Ukraine still looks like the 10 different ways. And on the one hand, it's understandable. We have a war, and we need all the support that we need can get from from from from any stakeholder, any country, any any donor.
Speaker 4:But on the other, we need to also think, yes, short term, how to survive this winter and the next winter, but also what our energy system will look like in 2030, 2040, 2050 because we will be part of the European Union. It's already apparent, and it doesn't make sense to also invest now in big projects that need to be closed down in the next fifteen years because of because of the European Green Deal, because Ukraine will be part of the European Union. So we need to really strategize on the national level and really prioritize renewables and talking about, like, how do we actually, like, rebuild and reconstruct and to beat our grids, to be able to to be more flexible, to integrate more renewables and and and storage capacities. Because, otherwise, it would be also very difficult to just have just, like, crazy uptake of renewables. We need to also balance some capacities and storage and smart grids and stuff like that.
Speaker 4:So I would say, yeah, here, we have this kind of an uncertain situation from the governmental level, but I think this each passing day with each passing Russian attack, actually, on our energy infrastructure, it becomes apparent that nuclear will take, at the very least, like, ten, fifteen years to build, and maybe Ukraine doesn't have ten, fifteen years without electricity. Just people waiting for new nuclear, which also costs a lot, and we don't have enough money to actually do that. We can also spend this money on more quick and sustainable solutions that can help already this year, next year, and the year after that.
Speaker 3:Yeah. That's that's definitely, like, an definitely a difference in the roll rollout in the time frames for building out new nuclear and renewables. There's definitely what you said. Whatever they do, it's gonna cost a lot of money. And you mentioned before already that a big problem, you mentioned municipalities, but across the board is financing and getting money for these projects.
Speaker 3:And there's of course, that too has two components. One is the longer term, and then one is the very short term. You mentioned a few times getting ready for the next winter, especially also with a view to heating heating people's homes and ensuring both lights are on and homes are warm. That's gonna be probably a real, real challenge. And I don't know.
Speaker 3:You know I mean, I I'm not an expert in this at all, but the international funds, they move very slowly on Oh, yeah.
Speaker 4:Unfortunately. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3:How do we get things? I mean, we have less than half a year until I mean, the heating season starts earlier, actually. But how do we how do we get the money and then the things so quickly? There's now this discussion of, like, a $50,000,000,000 loan that's almost finalized. And but, of course, that that's not just for energy.
Speaker 3:And then there is also, of course, other money coming, philanthropic money maybe. But, yeah, how how should we do this? Where should we focus? What's your view?
Speaker 4:No. I don't want to be too pessimistic, but, like, we are kind of already missing the the the the time window for the for this winter. So, like, this winter will be very hard for Ukrainians. Like, already, we we it's not sustainable to ensure that every hospital, every business, every building in Ukraine has electricity and heating. But what what we can actually do and what what is pretty much realistic in the next three or four months is to ensure that critical social infrastructure has enough capacities, backup capacities to help Ukrainian communities.
Speaker 4:So we're talking about, of course, hospitals. So people are still getting sick, people still getting operations, and people still need different vaccines. So providing hospitals with battery storage and renewables with heat pumps, with solar panels can be can be done in the next couple of couple of months. But, see, we cannot cover it cannot be covered, like, whole of Ukraine, maybe in the biggest cities and where most people live. Yeah.
Speaker 4:So on the other hand, it's a question of water utilities. So you kind of can live without electricity in your apartment, But if the water supply is disrupted, if the heating is disrupted, if the sewer system is disrupted, then it can be much more painful and and and and felt by the majority of the population. So helping also water utility companies and pumping stations to have this backup also with battery storage, with solar, that can really, really help coming into this winter. But this winter will definitely be even more even more like, it'll be harder than it was in 2022 and twenty twenty twenty three because in 2022, Russia targeted our transmission systems. So, basically, they didn't target so much our generation capacities.
Speaker 4:Currently, the majority of like, almost all of cogeneration in Ukraine is destroyed and cannot cannot generate electricity. So it will be hard, but this kind of, like, just small steps prioritizing, like, this kind of public utilities and hospitals that provide, like, the emergency and vital support and care to people in Ukrainian towns. I think that's where we still have a time frame. We still have the window to actually help. And for example, now different adjust, including the collection, are doing that.
Speaker 4:We're installing solar panels in Ukraine throughout different regions and communities We are advocating for IFAs to also create this kind of new programs. We see that Ukrainian government also create a decarbonization fund where they have, like, I I I think, like, €18,000,000 or dollars for this kind of help to Ukrainian to Ukrainians. We have different loan schemes from Ukrainian banks that have been announced in the past months, month, months and a half. So it's it's getting there, but in my opinion, it should it should have been done even earlier and not only, like, in June and July because it's still not like, still there is, like, the so so small amount of days and, like, this time window is closing pretty pretty fast. But as I said, prioritizing water utilities and hospitals, I think that that will already alleviate some pressure and pain and and and and at what we will be enduring during the during the winter in the coming months.
Speaker 3:Yeah. That sounds like a good plan to focus on this critical infrastructure, and and I hope that these can be still helped in the little time that's remaining that this is still possible with this focused approach.
Speaker 4:But Yeah.
Speaker 3:But Yeah.
Speaker 4:But at the same time, you you also like, in Ukraine, I I'm but I'm sure it's the same in other countries. Like, there is some sometime this lack of strategic approach and vision. Okay. Like, now it's summer, and maybe we need to think in the like, in spring about the autumn, so, like, to have more time to prepare. I think there's also a chance when we survive this winter and when we actually see how it goes and and the hardship that we'll endure, then the next week after that, then we we we may maybe may I hope that then we will have also more foresight and more knowledge and more experience to to prepare to prepare more quickly and start doing it earlier.
Speaker 4:Because I think, partially, some people in Ukraine already forgot how it was two years ago. So the last winter, the 2024 was a mild one. We didn't have electricity cutoffs as we did two years ago and as we will be getting, like, this coming season. So kind of I I think the the the awareness kind of got a little bit stumped, so it kind of people kind of forgot or didn't want to really think about. But after this winter, that will be far harder than it was last winter.
Speaker 4:Maybe it will also, like it will click again in in the minds of people and communities and our government. Oh, yes. Like, this is a new normal normal. And with this kind of destruction of our energy system, it it really is a new normal. So we we will still even if Russia, like, stops attacking right now, like, on on the 06/30/2024, we'll still be having electricity cutoffs in 2024, 2025, 2026 because we need to repair, and then the scale is so huge.
Speaker 4:So we we we still will be living this kind of situation for years to come. So we need to also, like, come to terms with that and it's not okay. This is, like, how we can adapt, how we can restructure our energy supply, our energy system, generation capacities, storage capacities. So we we we will be living in this kind of situation for years and years to come.
Speaker 3:No. And it's certainly not just a Ukrainian phenomenon that politicians, but also the population people are very shortsighted. Like, in the summer, they think about how it's too hot, and in the winter, they think about how it's too cold. But to plan ahead I mean, in the old days, of course, people used to do that. Right?
Speaker 3:So you plan you you can the food in the summer when you have harvest, so you have food for the winter. But but people kind of or slowly move to just having food always in the supermarket, having heat when you need it, just on demand, and also electricity whenever you need it. And I think that's so important to be a little bit forward thinking, forward planning. It's the same is true, of course, in in the rest of Europe where they also had this panic in the first winter, basically, with this super high energy cost. I mean, there were no disruptions to supply, but then the second winter was a lot better.
Speaker 3:And now maybe you know, it so much also depends how cold it is, how long the winter is, and then what else happens, of course. So this this is a very, very common human trait. Yeah.
Speaker 4:Yes. A question of the ability. Like, when it's bad, people adapt and think. When it's, like, the next year, it's good, and everybody have adapted back again. Oh, it's good.
Speaker 4:It will be always good. So it's like this kind of it's it's very fascinating also, like, living in Ukraine as seeing how people quickly adapt to daily air air alerts and this kind of targetings and electricity disruption to electricity supply, how people, like, react and adapt to be able to function normally because you cannot otherwise, it it creates so much stress. It's it's already like, in Ukraine are already very much stressed because of the whole situation and the war, but then thinking about constantly day after day, it's not it's not very good for your psyche. So I I see people and myself included kind of trying to live with that and adapt and, like, build our days around, like, by Russians and electricity supply cutoffs and stuff like that. So it's kind of it's fascinating how people how people adapt.
Speaker 4:But and I'm also thinking in in these moments, I'm thinking about how it was, like, in the forties and in the twenties with the second world war with the first first world war, how people actually, like, adapted and continue to live their lives, basically.
Speaker 3:Yeah. No. This is this is very, very true. People need you need to adapt. You need to also deal with this emergency situation in a way that you can handle it.
Speaker 3:It's and I I'm I'm glad you're sharing this, also this pressure, the psychological part of it, because it's it's huge tension and pressure, and it's going on for so long now already. And I imagine that that's probably also very exhausting. And then to ask people, well, what's your plan for 2030? It's maybe for some people, like, a little bit like, are you crazy? Because why would I plan for 2030?
Speaker 4:It's it's crazy when somebody, like, somebody like, in a work environment, when I'm speaking with different kinds of, like, international partners, And sometimes they say, oh, let's let's have a call, like, in October. Like, in June, but in October. And you're like, I don't know if I will be alive in October, but let's try. So it's it's kind of a very strange, like, thinking about that far ahead. And also for me, psychologically, it was also very like, I'm a man in Ukraine.
Speaker 4:I'm not drafted yet, so I'm not not not on the front lines. And I was lucky enough to have permission from our government to go to different kinds of national conferences, been able to advocate for continued support to Ukraine, for our energy sector. And I was outside of Ukraine a couple of times, like in Brussels, in Washington, in Berlin. And for me, each time, like, it was so so stressful to be outside of Ukraine because you kind of go into this kind of peaceful city, and everything is fine. People are fine.
Speaker 4:Nobody's thinking about or anything can happen. And, psychologically, it was also very strange and very like, I wanted like, I went to Brussels, and then on the next day, I wanted to go to Ukraine because it was, like, too much. Like, it was so surreal being in this kind of environment and speaking to people normally. And, like, it's so, yeah, it's it's still kind of kind of kind of very, very strange. And funnily enough, but may not maybe finally, but, like, it's it's I am more comfortable in sitting in Kyiv than I when I go to Berlin or Brussels or Washington.
Speaker 4:It's it's more comfortable here in this kind of environment because, otherwise, I feel disconnected from the situation and what has happened in in Ukraine when I'm just in in in the craziest was important because of the time difference. It was like I was in a whole different world, like, whole different, like, dimension. So yeah.
Speaker 3:No. I mean, I obviously, I can't fully understand the situation, but it does make sense how you explain it. When you are in Ukraine, you're surrounded by people sharing the same experience, so they immediately understand when you say something, how you think, how you view something. They might not agree with you on on on nuclear, yes or no, or on how much renewables, but they have they have that same background. And and it's such a different world as soon as you cross the border.
Speaker 3:I mean, it's maybe maybe also gradual because, obviously, you have some neighboring or more eastern European Union member states who are very much also, in in a sense, very, very engaged in the situation, like Lithuania or Poland. But the further west you go and, I mean, in The US, this seems very far away when you ask people. They don't think about it much. And in the papers, it moved further down in the priorities. I
Speaker 4:can imagine. Yeah. And, also, and also in different countries, when you go to Poland, there are a lot of Ukrainians there. Like, in Warsaw, there are a lot of Ukrainians. Then in Berlin, there's also a lot of Ukrainians, but less.
Speaker 4:But then in Paris, like, even less. And then London and then, I don't know, like, Madrid or Lisbon also. Like, not not not very much. So the the further west you go, the less also Ukrainians who kept in these countries are also pushing, trying to communicate, and advocate, and and and and still trying to get that attention to Ukraine and the situation, what is happening.
Speaker 3:Yeah. No. And and that, again, it makes sense, but it's also it's a huge challenge because when you think about it, you you need support from a lot of countries, continued support, and not not just governments, also, of course, foundations and individuals giving money and support. And and then governments are also changing, and political priorities are changing. And sometimes it gets better, and sometimes it might get harder.
Speaker 3:So this is this is a real challenge to keep keep this on the on the docket for whoever is in charge. I mean, we'll soon have a new government in London, presumably. Elections are next week. We also have this. I mean, today is the first round of the French parliamentary elections.
Speaker 3:And then, of course, in the fall in The US. So there's a lot of change expected in some way, but that's also whatever happens means there's kind of this period also where it's difficult to get decisions being done. So
Speaker 4:And, also, also, I think, like, for Ukrainians, what we need to realize also that we when this kind of changes in the government happen, like, it's it's it's normal. Of course, it's a democratic process, but you also need not only push on the topic of poor Ukrainians. You we need to help Ukraine because, like, because of principles and morals, stuff like that. Yes. Of course.
Speaker 4:But in addition to that, you need to also see the like, being able to sell it as one of the interests for French government, why French government should be invested in Ukrainian victory and support. The same as the UK government, American government do not only be dependent on, oh, look. Like, there is a war and Ukrainians are suffering. Yes. It it will always get back on the background, but also be more pragmatic and thinking about the potential interest and establishing these connections where it will be also in the mutual interest of different countries to to help Ukraine.
Speaker 4:I think this is also very important to understand and not only communicate about, like, the the the the the the crisis is the crisis situation, but also think, okay. How can also we help France or UK or or America? What can we propose and what how how we can make it mutually beneficial, not only, like, just give a support indefinitely to Ukraine? It can sound very pragmatic and very, like like, in my mind, in in an ideal world, like, I'm Ukrainian. Of course, in my ideal world view, every every country in the world sees that Russia attacked Ukraine unprovoked, like and and and, like, it's it's unjust.
Speaker 4:And then everybody just chips in and and and and helps Ukraine for their full victory. But it doesn't work like that, unfortunately, in the world. So countries depend on their electorate. They're pragmatic. So we need to also be aware of that situation because I think in 2022, it like, the initial shock and initial communication was good from our government, from our president.
Speaker 4:It really rallied the support, but the question of sustainability is still popping up, and we see it now with different governmental elections. So we live in a very maybe not a very ideal world, and we need to also be, like, mindful of that and and just and think strategically how to help Ukraine as Ukrainians and also as other partners in other countries.
Speaker 3:Yeah. That's that's definitely true. It's like pragmatic optimism. Maybe we're coming to the close of the hour, and I wanted to give you an opportunity. You touched on this a couple of times, but what's your what's your hope?
Speaker 3:What's your wish list, basically? What should happen in the next couple of months? And who should do what, basically? Like, what should the European Union do? What should The US do?
Speaker 3:What should others do? And and what what should people in the civil society in the West do to maybe support whatever you need?
Speaker 4:Yeah. I would say the first thing, it will always come first, the military assistance, especially with air defense. Because what what Russia was able to do to our core power plants, the complete destruction was because we didn't have enough air power, air defense, air support to actually combat the Russian drones and rockets and ballistic missiles. So advocacy and still increase of military assistance to Ukraine, especially air defense, will will get, like, a long way to help Ukrainian energy system and help Ukrainians. Because if we had those kind of weapons and this kind of defense, we won't be we won't be talking about this kind of difficult winter that we are in do in the next, like, in half a year.
Speaker 4:So this this will be very important and also because we are still creating new capacities. There will be renewable capacities. There will be new wind parks opening in Ukraine. There there is reconstruction of some coal power plants, but it's not sustainable until we can defend them. So, basically, we can reconstruct something, but then Russia targets again, and, yeah, it's already destroyed.
Speaker 4:So mid resistance, especially air defense, will be of the of the, like, the priority. And then coming down to the question of more sustainable support with renewable energy, be it through equipment donation and installation in Ukraine, maybe targeting especially critical social infrastructure, hospitals, water utilities, schools, kindergartens, municipal buildings, but also creation of new programs, especially financial assistant programs and different funds. Because, like, Ukrainian communities and people already see the benefit of that. With additional financial support, be it through loans, with preferential terms in Ukrainian currency, be it through grants, it of combination of grant and a loan, many communities would be able to install and and and, like, create this kind of projects on the ground. So this kind of financial support, creating new mechanisms and new support schemes will be very, very, very important.
Speaker 4:And, also, I would say the health capacity wise, capacity building wise to Ukrainian society and people. Because even speaking with renewables on the municipal level, there are not many many people who actually know how to duplicate this kind of projects and not only just applying and receiving. So this kind of all the programs where there is help to Ukrainian communities with renewables, they need to be combined with capacity building programs to Ukrainian municipal workers. Of course, there was a question of of of like, some people are being drafted into the army. Some people go to different international projects, but this kind of capacity building for people to be able to stay in their communities and receive this kind of knowledge and then duplicate it in the future will be very, very, very important.
Speaker 4:And, also, I would say the help needed to the integration into the European Union. Because currently, we'll be I hope or maybe this year, maybe the next year, we'll be starting open chapters for the for the to the European Union. We will be doing all the necessary homework, but it's so much stuff actually to learn and do. So we need also this kind of capacity building for our government, for civil society to understand what does the membership in in the European Union entail for Ukraine, what we need to do. So this kind of of this kind of support will be also very, very important.
Speaker 4:And I'm also glad that that, like, Ukrainian government doesn't have money for the reconstruction. Like, it's clear. All our budget goes for the support of our military, which is also logical. So for the reconstruction, it will be dependent on the international funds. And what we see and what I'm kind of glad is that we are dependent on the European Union, and it means European Union means European Green Deal.
Speaker 4:So it means that we won't be I hope that European Union won't support creation of new fossil fuel infrastructure and projects in Ukraine, new nuclear in Ukraine. There won't be enough resources for fossil, but we will be talking about prioritization of renewables, energy efficiency, bring down the consumption, smart grease, battery storage. So what what European Union, new building standards with zero energy buildings, nearly zero energy buildings, what European Union does for for for for all the 27 countries. So, yeah, I hope in that regard, with this kind of reconstruction, we'll be more sustainable because we are also dependent on the support from the European Union, which has these principles already engraved into into their documents and the enlargement process as a whole.
Speaker 3:Yes. You're right. That's the accession process is both a big challenge, I imagine, because, I mean, the European Union, the legal framework, the is so vast and so covers so many areas. And and the energy part is is just is is an important one, but it's only one of it. There are so many.
Speaker 3:So this is, like, a huge step. So and but it also is a huge opportunity, as you said, because it kind of requires especially when you get funding from there, there's the intention and the logic to make it align right away. And, of course, that doesn't guarantee everything, so there's still a lot of questions and and and challenges, but, obviously, there's a huge opportunity there. And I hope also that, of course, a lot of this can be started this year and continued and expanded, and also that things can happen in a coordinated way as far as possible with the other donors, and also people who are maybe not donors who are more supporting in other ways. And I think, yeah, that's that's good to have this list of priorities.
Speaker 3:And, I mean, I I do hope I do hope we can continue this conversation. There's definitely more moments coming later in the year regarding both the German Ukrainian energy days in in Yep. In the fall, but then also the g twenty conversations, which is also very important but challenging, and then also, of course, other civil society engagements where I hope we can continue this exchange. So I hope it's not gonna be too hot this summer, but above all, of course, we all hope for a mildish winter and late onset. So in in enjoy the days now, and I hope you do get some time.
Speaker 3:And, also, yeah, I wasn't gonna say time to relax but to recover because you need energy for yourself too, and there's a lot of work ahead. Definitely.
Speaker 4:Oh, that that's it's it's very difficult also, like, to actually to unplug and a little bit get myself time to rest because, like, before the voice is still ongoing. And, also, like, I am a man who is not in the army yet. So what can there's always a question on the back of my mind. Okay. What I can contribute, actually?
Speaker 4:Because I'm not on the I'm not fighting Russians, like, in the trenches. So that means that I need to do something also help Ukraine, like, backstage, like, on the background. So that's always keeping me, like, awake at night to understand, okay, how I can, like, help more because otherwise, it doesn't make, like, any sense. So it's also kind of this kind of different situation and board view and how do you combine it inside of yourself, understand, okay, what is your role? How can you help while you're not in the army?
Speaker 3:Yeah. Yeah. No. I I see that. That's really it's a challenge.
Speaker 3:And, I mean, I really admire how you manage this and the work you do and the positive energy you have. It's really good. I'm so glad we got time to talk. I'm glad also we met, and I hope to see you in person sometime soon again. And, yeah, I wish you all all the best for the second half of the year and which starts tomorrow.
Speaker 4:Thank you, man. Thank you very much.
Speaker 3:Talk soon again, and let's say thank you and all the best.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Thanks.
Speaker 2:That was Max Grunig in conversation with Kostya Krunitzky on the 06/30/2024, day 858 of Russia's full scale invasion of Ukraine. As of publication, the invasion has now lasted one thousand forty two days. We hope for peace in the new year.
Speaker 1:This is the first of four Pocacito conversations from 2024 with community organizers and activists from Kyiv, Berlin, Saint James Parish, Louisiana, and Superior, Arizona doing the work of environmental and climate justice.
Speaker 2:Our second conversation is with German climate activists Luisa Neubauer and Helena Marshall during their visit to Charlottesville in October.
Speaker 1:For Pocacito, this is Brendan O'Donnell and Max Grinig. Thank you for listening.