Journey to the Sunnyside

You don’t identify as an alcoholic.
You’re functioning.
You’re successful.
But something still feels off.
In part two of my conversation with Jennifer Kautsch, founder of Sober Sis, we explore why the gray area can feel harder to leave than rock bottom. We talk about identity, why labels create resistance, how high-achieving women quietly manage drinking, and what sober-minded living actually means.

If you’ve ever felt stuck between fine and not fine, this episode will help you think differently about what comes next.

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Sunnyside is the #1 alcohol health app that helps you drink less without any shame, guilt, or pressure to quit. Optimize your alcohol habits to achieve benefits like sleeping better, losing weight, feeling more energy, and saving money. We know that an all-or-nothing approach doesn’t work for everyone, so we focus on helping you set your own goals, celebrate small wins, and build a lasting system of accountability. As a result, 96.7% of our members see a big drop in their drinking after 90 days.

We now offer Sunnyside Med, a new program that provides access to compounded naltrexone, a medication that can reduce alcohol cravings at the brain level, offering a more clinical pathway for people who need it. Sunnyside Med is a complete, holistic approach to help you drink less or quit, including coaching, community, habit change, education, and more to help you create longterm change while the medication does its work.

Disclaimer: This podcast is not intended as medical advice, and the views of the guests may not represent the views of Sunnyside. If you’re concerned about your health or alcohol use, please consider seeking advice from a doctor.

Creators and Guests

Host
Mike Hardenbrook
#1 best-selling author of "No Willpower Required," neuroscience enthusiast, and habit change expert.

What is Journey to the Sunnyside?

Journey to the Sunnyside is a top 1% podcast, reaching over 500,000 listeners every week. It’s your guide to exploring mindful living with alcohol—whether you're cutting back, moderating, or thinking about quitting.

While Sunnyside helps you reduce your drinking, this podcast goes further, diving into topics like mindful drinking, sober curiosity, moderation, and full sobriety. Through real stories, expert insights, and science-backed strategies, we help you find what actually works for your journey.

Hosted by Mike Hardenbrook, a #1 best-selling author and neuroscience enthusiast, the show is dedicated to helping people transform their relationship with alcohol—without shame, judgment, or rigid rules.

This podcast is brought to you by Sunnyside, the leading platform for mindful drinking. Want to take the next step in your journey? Head over to sunnyside.co for a free 15-day trial.

Disclaimer: The views expressed in our episodes do not necessarily represent those of Sunnyside. We’re committed to sharing diverse perspectives on health and wellness. If you’re concerned about your drinking, please consult a medical professional. Sunnyside, this podcast, and its guests are not necessarily medical providers and the content is not medical advice. We do not endorse drinking in any amount.

Speaker 1:

In part two of my conversation with Jen Couch, founder of Sober Cis, we explore why the gray area can feel harder to leave than rock bottom. We talk about identity, why labels create resistance, how high achieving women quietly manage drinking, and what sober minded living actually means. If you've ever felt stuck between fine and not fine, this episode will help you think differently about what comes next. A lot of people that are in the gray area resist labels, things like alcoholic or AUD or addiction, recovery. I know I did, But, also, I didn't identify with it, and I also didn't feel like my behaviors were my identity.

Speaker 1:

So I didn't really even if I could classify or take those quizzes and and classify under that. But why do you think, you know, with the women that you work with in your own experience, that that is a a point of friction?

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Absolutely. It was for me as well. And I think, like you said, Mike, partly because it didn't, it didn't resonate with me authentically. But I think labels in general just don't really serve us that well.

Speaker 2:

I get that we want to identify or be known or. Yeah. You know? So I I understand for sure. I mean, there's even an identity in our sisterhood of being a sober cis.

Speaker 2:

There's an identity there. But I think when we use labels like addict, so they're just so loaded. It's so loaded with stereotype and stigma. Because what I have found in doing this work is when I tell people what I do, which is this is the funniest thing. I'm usually at happy hours.

Speaker 2:

My husband is an entrepreneur, so I'm usually at happy hours for his real estate businesses and whatnot or just or just networking happy hours as a as a business owner, as a nonprofit. And so I'm just out there doing my thing. Well, most happy hours are pretty alcohol centric, and it is at those places where I get asked, so what do you do while people are holding drinks? And the last thing I wanna do is throw out hardcore labels that would instantly judge or shame somebody. So I just say, you know what?

Speaker 2:

And I kinda just smile about it and kinda own it. And I just say, you know, I, I help women who wanna drink less or not at all. And I I kinda I can even say the word gray area, which immediately I can see the look on other people's I've done a lot of research in this area, not only in my own life, but just out there. Just out there as this as a alcohol free person doing this work, I can see their faces. If I were to say, yeah.

Speaker 2:

I work with alcohol addiction. They they would instantly just I don't know. But what I find is even just bringing up the word alcohol or working with drinking, what people tend to do, and I don't know if you found this in your work as well being, who you are, but people tell me immediately their worst, relative story. I mean, when I say their worst relative, I mean, the story of uncle whoever or aunt whoever, the crazy grandma, or whoever ran their car off the the road into the bar ditch. It's almost like immediately people want to let you know where they are.

Speaker 2:

And so I think anything we can do to broaden the conversation so that people don't have to categorize themselves or even bring in other people to kinda stack how they might feel about it and just and just normalize it. Sometime I mean, I have all different answers depending on who I'm talking to. Sometimes I'm like, you know, I'm a I'm a mindset coach. I help women become more present in their own lives. Really?

Speaker 2:

Tell me more. People are intrigued by that one because I haven't even used the drinking word yet. That's how far back I walk it sometimes.

Speaker 1:

Mhmm.

Speaker 2:

And sometimes I can talk about the work of becoming sober minded, which I would define as being awake, alert, aware, and present in your own life. Being sober minded is being awake, alert, aware, present. The name of my book is called look alive, sis. Forty days to awaken your sober mind. Like, look alive.

Speaker 2:

Look alive in your own life. Like, coach, put me in. I'm ready to play. Look alive, man. Look alive.

Speaker 2:

This is it. This is your life. And with that kind of attitude, it's more of like a go getter personality. Like, I wanna lean into life. I wanna be pulled by something greater, bigger, more purposeful than than just me.

Speaker 2:

And instead of being pushed, I like, I've gotta change. I've got this label that's pushing me and pushing me out into this open space where I'm like, oh, I'm just I'm I'm standing on top of this label versus, oh, no. I don't need a label. Life is pulling me forward. God is doing amazing things in and through my life and the women I work with.

Speaker 2:

We're excited about it. Like, this is the best thing that's ever happened. Like, woah. Who wouldn't wanna be a part of that? And it's an attitude.

Speaker 2:

It's a it's a vibe. It's an aura of ownership, which takes time. I did not start out this way at all. I started out way on the down low with the fact that I was even changing my relationship with drinking because I tried to change it so many times before, and it didn't work out didn't work. And it wasn't until I found the tools that worked for me that I began sharing it with other people because I needed to test them out myself.

Speaker 2:

And so I did not I did not start out with this amount of confidence and, like, this is the best thing that's ever happened to me. I started out with what have I done? What have I done? I've cut off now connection with my social group. I don't know how my husband and I are gonna connect.

Speaker 2:

He's my drinking buddy. I did not start out and say, I'll never drink again or forever or always. I still don't focus on those words. I mean, we're not even really guaranteed tomorrow. So, like, let's live today looking alive kind of the attitude, but that's more.

Speaker 1:

I think an openness to know that we're always for the only forever is that we're forever changing, I think. That's for sure.

Speaker 2:

Right.

Speaker 1:

Right? And so to put a label is quite permanent. And I think from my perspective, I think labels come with preconceived notions. We all grew up with, like, an alcoholic is this. You know?

Speaker 1:

And, of course, the extreme version is the homeless person on the street that's lost everything. So I think labels bring that into the circle. It also is like it's almost like it can't be undone. Right?

Speaker 2:

Like Right.

Speaker 1:

Oh, I used to be an alcoholic or it it, like, it doesn't. It's so I think that that creates, like, this friction. But I will say, you know, you mentioned something around meeting people. I'd so I I you you get I've noticed two different reactions. You get somebody that leans in and says, oh, you know what?

Speaker 1:

Like, I took sixty days off, and I feel amazing. I've slept better than I ever have. Like, I'm seeing that more and more now. And then you see the other people there are sort of, like, backpedaling to justify whatever's going on internally with that hand you know, what they're holding.

Speaker 2:

Right. Right.

Speaker 1:

But so I think, like, some of those things are but it is changing. But if you use those labels, I think that especially if they don't live in the world that you and I do Right. Working in this field and knowing the differences, when they hear those labels, all of a sudden, their mind goes to those extremes that I just mentioned.

Speaker 2:

Totally.

Speaker 1:

But I will I'll I'll pack on one more thing onto what you said about, like, all this amazing thing. So, like, I just started taking my kids to this it's like skateboards and ramps and and jump like, trampoline, gymnastics. They have all these pro skiers and snowboarders. And, like, I went there, and my kids are doing that. And I looked at a couple dads, and they're all having beers on the side because there's a cafe in it.

Speaker 1:

And I looked at it, and I was like, I don't wanna be the dad that's sitting there having a beer, and I didn't want a beer. I wanted to be the dad that was, like, on the trampoline and taking the flips and lessons and all that, and and that's what I did. You know?

Speaker 2:

Yes. Yeah. You wanna be the dad that's that's present, that has more energy, that's catching the glance of your of your kid looking back to see if you're watching. You know? Yeah.

Speaker 2:

That dad. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

So you go you go

Speaker 2:

for your next drink. You know?

Speaker 1:

Yeah. No. I don't

Speaker 2:

I around. Yeah. That you're the you're the dad that's watching the jump, and you got to see it.

Speaker 1:

Well, I think also, though, I will say I was probably like you. I was extremely regimented. There's no way that I would ever have a beer in the middle of the day even though I

Speaker 2:

was there. Of self discipline until I didn't. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. I was not a day drinker.

Speaker 1:

I was too much of a productivity guy to even be drawn to that. But Yeah. So I wanna talk a little bit about sober cis and how you primarily work with women because I think there are some distinctions here. Are there patterns that you see that show up uniquely to women for this gray area? And to throw a little other things out there, I know you talked about sort of the the social dynamics, but also, like, hormonal shifts or middle of life transitions.

Speaker 1:

Like, what are you seeing?

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Well, totally. There is such a difference between as much as our society doesn't like to say it. It's true. There is a really big difference between a male and female body and the way that we metabolize alcohol, how it affects us differently.

Speaker 2:

How yeah. We're just we're we're built so differently. And we drink a lot of times for different reasons. I mean, ultimately the same as far as there may be something that we're trying to, you know, escape or cope with. But I think for a lot of women, it really is oftentimes an emotional outlet.

Speaker 2:

It's an emotional escape. Whether that be celebration, we just tie it in so much, or loneliness and sadness. And we're kind of in a loneliness epidemic in our in our country. You know? We're the most connected we've ever been, and the mental health issues are at a height that we've never seen before.

Speaker 2:

So that tells me that just because we've all got a phone that we're actually experiencing less quality connections. So I think a lot of women, as men are too, drinking. But I mean, we have less of the enzyme that is needed to metabolize alcohol. As we age, our bodies lose water volume. So as a result, we are less able to even dilute the alcohol in our system.

Speaker 2:

So if I'm going toe to toe with my man or someone else at the bar that I'm doing a business deal with, I'm trying to drink with them and hang with them and they're male, I am having a different experience in my body. Physiologically speaking, different things are going on. So I do think that that's very important to kind of bring into the conversation. I think men drink a lot for social reasons, again, as do women. But I find that a lot of women are drinking alone.

Speaker 2:

A lot of the women I work with would say, oh yeah, I drink socially too. I mean, I just kinda drink whenever. But there's a lot of at home alone drinking, which is a feels different than, like, I'm going out with the girls or, like, I'm out with my guy on the town. You can kinda mask a lot of your drinking as far as socially acceptable. But and even, like I talked about earlier, the detox to detox loop when I was, you know, I'm still a mom, but, like, literally in the mom's zone with kids at home.

Speaker 2:

Kids are grown and flown, Mike. They're they're gone. They're they're out there living their own lives now and having their own journeys with alcohol and everything else that they've gotta know for themselves. But when they were at home, you know, it's kinda easy to go, well, but I'm still I'm still in the long zone. Like, I deserve it.

Speaker 2:

It's still a reward. I think that as I do this longer, the more I'm seeing the older women get for the first time in history, women are drinking more as they age, not less, which is different because we've got I'm, I'm a Gen Xer. I work with Gen X and a lot of boomers. I mean, I'm open and and available to any woman who wants to change their relationship with drinking. I'd love to work with sorority girls.

Speaker 2:

I mean, bring them in. Like, I I would love to work with as young, and I've had women in their eighties join sober sis. And they're rocking it, man. They're rocking it in their eighties, making a turn, making a pivot in their life. And I just think, wow.

Speaker 2:

Rockstar. So it's never too early, and it's never too late to change your relationship with alcohol for any reason. Doesn't have to be bad enough. It can be because it's not good enough. But I do find as I am in my mid fifties working with women my age, we have all kinds of layered issues where we are not in that generation where we saw our parents drink as much as we were the parents who were drinking around our kids.

Speaker 2:

We were in the generation where just the mommy wine juice culture and the whole just like rose all day, you know, kinda started winning over culture. And before you know it, there's, you know, Yetis going around, Stanley cubs that no one's really sure what's in them. And you're, you know, you're out about at practice. Again, for the most part, I mean, I won't say I never daydream, but for the most part, yeah, I kinda had my limit there. But it was a challenge because I knew, you know, at the park or at a practice, game on, it was already going.

Speaker 2:

And so we are that generation, I feel like, forties, fifties, sixties, where it's like, okay. The our kids are drinking less. Our adult children that that, gen z are drinking less. That's why we see the stats are going down, which is super exciting. And, you know, I love the work that's being done.

Speaker 2:

I love what Sunnyside is doing. The work that's being done to change the culture, I think the young people are are making some changes before it gets so entrenched, but I'm working with women who've been drinking for twenty five, thirty, forty years.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

And that's a different ballgame. So I do find that women, or ten years. I mean, my drinking career, Mike, was relatively short. I didn't know it at the time. I was actually a later in life drinker.

Speaker 2:

I didn't really start drinking until my young thirties. I did not drink in high school, college, or really my twenties. I mean, I had to drink here and there, and I didn't like it at all. I didn't like I didn't like the taste, number one. I hadn't acquired that yet and built up the taste buds yet for nothing.

Speaker 2:

And and I didn't like that it made me feel kinda out of control. I mean, I'm an eighties kid. I I graduated high school in the eighties just to date myself further. And so for me, it felt kinda, like, vulnerable, out of control. I mean, this was, like, pre Uber, pre cell phone.

Speaker 2:

Yikes. I don't wanna get drunk at a frat house. What am I gonna do? You know? So, like, that kept me in line personally.

Speaker 2:

I mean, I work with a lot of women who have been drinking since high school. But for me, it was as a working young mom at a networking happy hour ironically is where I started. I was like, oh, a friend of mine said, Jen, why don't you get a drink with us? It had been very stressful. We were building a company together and it was very stressful, very exciting, but very stressful.

Speaker 2:

And we were at a hotel bar. We were at a hotel lobby bar and I was always the gal that just got iced tea or soft drink and I was good. And and she said, Jen, why don't you get a drink? And I was like, you know what? I'm 32.

Speaker 2:

Come on. Why why don't I? It's not that I try to be, quote, sober. That's why, again, that label doesn't fit me. I wasn't a sober person.

Speaker 2:

I was a non drinker. And then I became a drinker, like, almost overnight because I was like, oh, this is awesome. Where have I been? Wow. Okay.

Speaker 2:

This is the magic elixir because I didn't I didn't understand. I really was a little bit naive to, alcohol itself because I didn't really have a cautionary tale. I grew up in a pretty teetotaling home, and that's because my parents grew up with drinkers. And so it's just really interesting how you can that's why I think if we focus on the substance too much and focus on the behavior, we're gonna miss it. Because I had rules around drinking when I was younger.

Speaker 2:

Don't drink and drive. Don't drink if you're not 21, and don't drink to get drunk. Again, coming from a faith perspective, those were pretty clear. Okay. Cool.

Speaker 2:

Got it. I'm a rule follower. It looks scary. Didn't like it. Well, how do those rules apply in your young thirties?

Speaker 2:

They don't. I mean, don't drink and drive. That's still a good one. But, you know, like, I'm over 21. I'm not drinking to get drunk.

Speaker 2:

My gosh. I'm at a happy hour. Relax. And I really bought into that relax. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

And I need to relax. I'm the perfect candidate for relaxing because I'm I'm a type a, and I work with a lot of women who are very, very successful at what they do. They're they're high achievers. They're type a. They're like you and I, entrepreneurs, very regimented, very disciplined, super into their health.

Speaker 2:

If I could describe a sober sis, that's who it is. It's someone who's killing it. They're getting it done. They're not dropping balls, and they're losing themselves. And alcohol is the way out for them at the at at the time.

Speaker 2:

And as it was for me, it was my it was, like, my one thing. Like, don't take that away, man. Don't take that away. I'll do all the workouts. I'll just drink all the green juice.

Speaker 2:

I'll do all the things. Like, don't take that away. If you take that away, what do I have that's fun for me? That's how much value I gave alcohol.

Speaker 1:

Oh, I know. I know what you're talking about. And and and even when you do wanna devalue it, then you're so stuck into the detox or retox that all the will in the world isn't gonna get you there. And, you know, what you said there is like, I was the frat guy. So I was different.

Speaker 1:

I took a different path. But I think what it shows is that, like, number one, it's not a character flaw. Like, you and I found ourselves in similar situations and so so do so many countless other people. Yeah. We feel like we're different.

Speaker 1:

There's something wrong with us, and there really isn't. And it it it's a very common thing, and that's why we've been talking about it. And there are ways to get out of it. And, but, you know, one thing that I think I don't wanna glaze over before before we finish is that you mentioned a lot of people that are older are drinking more, and this is a stat. I don't have the actual stat in front of me that I read maybe six months back.

Speaker 1:

But, yes, older people are actually drinking more, but all the reports wanna talk about how people are drinking less.

Speaker 2:

Right. Right.

Speaker 1:

And less also doesn't always mean, like, less days. They might just be drinking less quantity on specific days too or less people. Like so those stats, they're great to have, but you also have to realize, like, reading them and the the practicality on how our things relate to us might be different and might distance ourselves from them when we read them and realize that there's actually, hey. More older people are actually drinking right now.

Speaker 2:

Right. Right. That's so so true. And I think that's why it really does go back to popping the hood in your own life and and looking at the mental, physical, emotional, the whole person. That's so important to me.

Speaker 2:

That's a that's an angle I take in my work is really taking a holistic approach because, you know, even even young people may be drinking less alcohol, but what are they doing more of? I mean, let's sneeze.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. That's always been

Speaker 2:

You know? What else? Maybe alcohol

Speaker 1:

sales People are people.

Speaker 2:

You know? What sales are up? You know?

Speaker 1:

Like Yeah.

Speaker 2:

So it's it really becomes less about sometimes the substance and more about the coping mechanisms and the strategies that we have to stay present in our own life. And that's why I think sober minded living is, again, just more the goal for me than it is, I mean, that's my filter. That's my litmus test for anything I do is guarding and protecting and nurturing my sober mind.

Speaker 1:

Yes. Alright. So I wanna finish with one question. Is if somebody's listening and they feel kinda stuck between fine and not fine, what's one simple experiment or maybe a mindset shift that they could try this week?

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Oh, I love that one. That's a good one. You know, just keeping it keeping it practical. You know?

Speaker 2:

And I would say this. I would say if you step back from alcohol long enough just to just to feel what it would feel like, even if it's just a night or, you know, a twenty one day, you know, reset, something to hit the reset button. Alcohol's always gonna be there. I mean, it's it's it's unfortunately. But but fortunately, because I wanna just denote that it always goes back to power to choose.

Speaker 2:

Power of choice. That's your freedom. It's the power to choose. So what do you have to lose? Instead of focusing on you know, it's kind of like the FOMO and the Jomo.

Speaker 2:

Focus on what you can gain, not what you're gonna lose in the short term. You may lose a drinking buddy. You may lose the buzz. You may lose also the three m wake up call. You may lose the remorse and regret the next day.

Speaker 2:

But what can you gain? I've never regretted not drinking the next day ever.

Speaker 1:

That's it. I agree with you. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

I've never been like, oh, man. I do wish I woulda had those two margaritas, or I wished I woulda started the the bottle breakdown ever. So I just think, you know, playing the movie forward, thinking what can I gain? It's temporary. It may feel like a loss, but in the long term, it is a gain.

Speaker 2:

And, and that's where the support comes in.

Speaker 1:

So so good. Well, Jen, thanks so much for coming on today. Before we go, though, if anybody's listening, I'd love for you to talk about what you have going on and where people can go to find out more information or maybe reach out.

Speaker 2:

Yep. I love that. Thank you for that opportunity. Yep. I'm I'm everywhere on social media.

Speaker 2:

You got at sober sis on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, you you, you know, YouVersion, YouTube, all the use. But I would say, yeah, shoot me a DM on Instagram. That's where I'm I'm most, like, looking alive. And at the beginning of every month, I offer a twenty one day reset challenge for women where I just invite them into our community to do exactly that. Just hit the reset button, learn some practical strategies and tools, and maybe look at alcohol differently so that you feel back in the driver's seat to decide if you do wanna drink less or not at all.

Speaker 2:

So it becomes a more personal internal journey than just wearing a label or just doing a challenge. It's really doing the work with other people. So that's that's probably the most exciting thing we have going on right now. It's just inviting women every month on the first of the month to hit the reset button with us and stay connected.

Speaker 1:

Amazing. Well, I, of course, align to Elle the work that you're doing. Thank you so much for what you do and for helping people and for coming on today. So thank you, Jen.

Speaker 2:

Yep. Loved it. Thanks, Mike.