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The Pre-Con Recon Podcast talks all things brand and marketing for the pre-construction real estate community inviting leaders to share the knowledge and tools needed to succeed in the ever-evolving market.
Justin Frenette (00:05)
Justin Frenette here, co-founder and CEO of Him and Her and host of the Pre-Con Recon podcast, where we talk about all things brand and marketing in the pre-construction real estate market. I invite leaders to share their knowledge and strategies for success, empowering our community to thrive now and in the future. This episode is brought to you by Him and Her, a creative agency specializing in exceptional branding for real estate and high-end consumer goods.
Over the past eight years, we've helped shape and sell over $2.5 billion in real estate projects, crafting and executing strategies that deliver extraordinary results. From successful multi-year master planned mixed use communities, both high and low rise, to transforming underperforming locations into sought after destinations, to selling out residential towers in just 23 minutes, we empower our partners to achieve success in any market condition. If you're looking...
to launch a pre-construction project and want to learn more, reach out to us at himandher.ca. I also wanted to give a quick shout out to Jordan Taylor from Deco Homes. Jordan recently was on the podcast and him and her have had the pleasure of working with Jordan and his team in the GTA on a project called Honeystone. Jordan and I had a really great chat and he's got some great insights to share, so make sure to check that out. Today, I have the opportunity to sit down with Carrie Curtis. Carrie joined Killam
in 2019 and is the Vice President of Ontario and Western Canada. Carrie's focus is primarily related to development and acquisitions and works through the full development lifecycle from purchase of lands, entitlements, design, construction, and handover to the property management team. Carrie is also involved in the acquisitions and dispositions of apartments in Ontario and the West. Before joining Killam, Carrie spent years in consulting engineering, primarily focusing on the residential and ICI sectors.
She holds a Bachelor of Applied Science in Civil Engineering from the University of Waterloo and is a professional engineer licensed in Ontario. Killam Apartment REIT, based in Halifax, is one of Canada's largest residential landlords, owning, operating, managing and developing a diverse portfolio of apartments, manufactured homes and seasonal properties. Carrie, thanks for joining me today.
Carrie Curtis (02:22)
No problem.
Justin Frenette (02:24)
Now before we dive in, do like to ask my guests what it is you love about what you do.
Carrie Curtis (02:30)
pretty much everything to be quite honest. You know, I'm pretty fortunate that every day I come to work, I'm surrounded by some very smart and talented and passionate people and every day I have the opportunity to learn and every day is different. it's really motivating to come to work and learn something new every day and it never seems to stop.
Justin Frenette (02:34)
Okay.
Carrie Curtis (02:58)
in that evolution and then getting to work through all of the design processes and things of that nature in the building and then to finally see our residents enter their homes for the first time. It's pretty exciting. great motivating career and certainly something I enjoy doing every day.
Justin Frenette (03:22)
I love it. And I have to agree, there's something about selling a home and seeing a building that's gonna be standing there for a long time. It's pretty awesome. Now your transition from engineering to real estate development, how did that happen? What does that journey look like?
Carrie Curtis (03:32)
Yeah.
Yeah, it was sort of a definitely a journey I started, you know, my early career sort of in that environmental realm, you know, graduating fresh out of school and then started doing road reconstructions and then moved to this site development realm. that's when I really started to find what I was passionate about, really, when it came to that building, I'd always wanted to build and
And when I was working in the consulting realm, was working on one of Killam's first properties in Cambridge, their first Ontario build. And that's when I met our CEO Phil and my current boss, Mike. And they were such smart men and very...
Justin Frenette (04:16)
Okay.
Carrie Curtis (04:30)
kind and very just I had left me with a really good impression. So I mean, it was probably 10 years later that our paths crossed again, and this opportunity became available. And, you know, six years ago, I joined the team here. And it's been quite an incredible journey going from sort of that consulting side where I was, you know, working on, you know, these types of projects from the consulting realm. And then
and then moving up to the ownership side. So it's been a pretty fun journey, actually.
Justin Frenette (05:04)
I'm sure time has flown as it does. And how has some of that engineering consulting background helped you influence the decisions you're making at Killam and on the projects you're working on?
Carrie Curtis (05:07)
Yes.
Yeah, it's, you know what, it's been such a, I want to say it was a bit of an easy transition at the beginning. Certainly because the project teams that I was working on as a consultant are the same teams that we retained as owners. So I just really shifted gears, just roles. And so, you know, at first it was, I think the transition was harder because they kept asking me technical questions about.
Justin Frenette (05:23)
Okay.
Carrie Curtis (05:44)
the project that they were supposed to be telling me the answers to. So it was, that was a little bit of a transition, but, you know, it's interesting because I would always approach the projects in the same way, you know, if we're doing due diligence, the things that I would write in the report from the, as a consultant, I'm now really, like I process from the owner side. So I'm watching for those same things.
You know, it's a good background to start from because you really have that technical expertise ahead of time and certainly cost savings and all of those things are very helpful. But you look at a project, how you would, you know, design it and how it's going to work on a site and all of those things, you're looking at it from that lens. then...
You know, I think as engineers, we're really trained to, you know, analyze and evaluate and problem solve. And really that's what real estate's about and to be successful in the real estate realm. You really have to have that sort of eye in the training. And I want to say not working from an emotional brain side, you're really working from that, a real practical problem solving brain side. So I think that engineering background is very sort of helpful in that.
context.
Justin Frenette (07:07)
Okay, now Killam
as a business and product portfolio for those who might not be familiar, could you describe some of the major projects you guys work on, typical projects you work on, or maybe one that's upcoming to give a sense of what you're typically working on?
Carrie Curtis (07:24)
Yeah, sure. So, so we're publicly traded REIT and we own, you know, roughly 270 properties across seven provinces. And then we also have commercial, commercial buildings and, and then manufactured home communities. So, in all, we're about 19,000 units, apartment units across Canada and 6,000 manufactured home communities.
Justin Frenette (07:48)
Just a couple.
Carrie Curtis (07:49)
So just a couple, but
you know, it's a great range, right? So we have, you know, our sort of, you know, the acquisitions we've made over the course of the years, you know, so buildings ranging back from, you know, like 1950s, 1960s to the new builds that we're working on now. So we're working on new builds in, geez, I want to say three provinces at the moment, you know, and across the country, you know, from
you know, basically actually four provinces now I think about, you know, from Victoria to Halifax. So a broad range of builds and broad range of sizes, you know, from a six story wood frame to, you know, 30 story high rise. So it's, you know, certainly a broad range of product, broad range of municipalities and jurisdictions and regulations and all of those things that we sort of hit across the.
across the board. it's certainly diverse, our pipeline is, geez, I would venture to guess 10,000 units at this stage and always taking on more. But we've got a significant pipeline across the country and it's sort of fun to be able to work in multiple jurisdictions and make things happen.
Justin Frenette (08:57)
Okay. Yep.
And would you say, kind
of as a side point to that, juggling all the rules and regs, if you were to give it a percentage, is 50 % of the know-how in a region the same, 90 % or like not the same at all?
Carrie Curtis (09:26)
Not the same at all. It's, you know, even just when you take a building, like thankfully we have wonderful consultants in each of our jurisdictions that we work with who are always, you know, the top of the game and very helpful in the guiding process. you know, it's interesting when you're working across jurisdictions, for example, know, CMHC is one of, you know,
Justin Frenette (09:28)
Hahaha
Carrie Curtis (09:56)
mechanisms we use to finance our projects. And CMHC requirements are across the board the same. know, it's a national like national type requirements. However, when you apply those national sort of requirements to specific jurisdictions, you're really trying to you get down to the nuts and bolts, you know. So for example, Ontario, you know, is, you know, 15 %
of our units have to be accessible when we're doing a new build. And then in Alberta, it's zero. So, but there's, you know, accessibility requirements through CMHC. So learning how to apply all of those things, you know, the national standards across each jurisdiction and how we design is, it can be tricky, but it's not dull.
Justin Frenette (10:47)
Okay, well that's good, you on your toes. Now, you guys are clearly experts at a broad range and size of products. Branding and marketing. How does branding and marketing differ in your world of purpose-built rentals compared to let's say pre-construction condos? What you see is the biggest difference from your side of the fence.
Carrie Curtis (10:50)
Yeah.
Yeah, it's, you know, there's certainly as much as people, know, from a from the context of after things are built, they look at them and they say they very much interchange the word condo and apartment. But they're so incredibly different in how you go about, you know, building them, marketing them and all the like. So, you know, from the context of of the condo world.
Justin Frenette (11:20)
Yep.
Carrie Curtis (11:33)
There's pre-sales, you're trying to collect deposits, determine if the project is viable based on how many deposits you're collecting. So you're going out very early to market. Whereas in the apartment realm, we're fronting the money to build and you're not marketing your product until well into when you've built it. You've done your branding and your logo and you've got your stuff up but you're...
you're not actually going to market with your product until, you know, six months to a year in advance of when that field is actually going to be complete. So is so certainly that approach is very, very different. And then, you know, the build is different and how you're you're you're marketing to a community, you know, we're not looking at when you're marketing to condo a lot of a lot of it is investors and individual investors who are, you know, looking to either live in that unit or
Justin Frenette (12:03)
Right.
Carrie Curtis (12:30)
or rent that single particular unit, whereas we're looking at it from a context of a community and we're marketing to build a community. And so, you know, we have our tenant resident, our resident managers who live in the building who are, know, are there 24 seven, our operations teams are, you know, on site. We have, you know, full teams and we're really trying to build that community with events and all of those other things. So it's.
it's a, it's a, we're managing it differently. And so I think we have to capture that, that operations and the management context and the community building within our marketing, within the marketing of the, the development.
Justin Frenette (13:14)
That makes sense. Now, would you say, not to throw jabs, would you say you care a little bit more about what you're building because you're the ones that have to manage and maintain it versus condos?
Carrie Curtis (13:26)
Yeah, well,
yeah, I think we I think we do right because I mean, we at the end of the day, we're we're we're going to be holding it and we're going to be maintaining it. And so it's very important to us, you know, the mechanical systems that we put in have to be, you know, we want them to work, we want them to have longevity. You know, the tenants were selective about
Justin Frenette (13:35)
right.
Carrie Curtis (13:48)
You know, we want to make sure that the tenants that are in our buildings are great tenants and are kind to the other tenants that are living with them. Because we are trying to build that community and make it safe and pleasurable for all the people that are going to live there. So, and our resident managers are going to also live in those buildings, right? So, you know, we want to create a great work environment for them. So we certainly have a vested interest in building something great.
Justin Frenette (14:08)
Yep.
Carrie Curtis (14:18)
because it's going to be ours and we want to be proud of it.
Justin Frenette (14:22)
Well, I love that. Now, it's obviously a competitive space. How does Killam apply strategies to attract these tenants or build trust or differentiate yourselves in such a competitive market?
Carrie Curtis (14:36)
Yeah, and I think, you know, it kind of goes back to, you know, our brand is really, like, we very much live our core values. You know, and our core values, you know, two of those things are really, you know, we want to build community. You know, that's one of our strongest ones and strong customer relationships. So we are, like I said, embedded into the communities that we are building in. so, you know, having those resident managers
you know, people ask us about that, you know, when they're renting, like, how do you care for this building? And if we say, you know, we've got, you've got somebody there 24/7 we have the emergency services, we have all of those things in place. It gives our tenants a lot of peace of mind. You know, that they know who they're going to if there's a problem. They know that there's a structure in place and there's and things in place and, you know, from just even from a cleanliness perspective and, you know,
The cleanliness, the curb appeal, our buildings are consistent. We take good care of them consistently no matter where that building is and we have consistent standards. And I think that's a great thing that we can do to continue to build that brand and market accordingly.
Justin Frenette (15:57)
That makes a lot of sense because
the benefit as well being as large as you are is people are on the move. So if I've had a good experience with a killing property in the past, I'm going to be more likely to choose another one or great online reviews and networking experiences are all going to help somebody choose your property over the others, which is a great long-term play.
Carrie Curtis (16:16)
Yeah.
And we, you know, we do every year we do our tenant surveys across the country. And so we're measuring ourselves year after year about, you know, what can we do? What can we do better? Where are we not performing as well as we'd like to be? And, you know, those things are very important to us because it's, you know, it is our business and we want to, it's customer service oriented and we very much look at ourselves as a very customer service oriented.
Justin Frenette (16:21)
Okay.
I like that.
Carrie Curtis (16:46)
company.
Justin Frenette (16:48)
And even
turnover, right? You're going to have some parallels to software as service tech companies and that turnover really does make a serious impact, the percentage you have, right?
Carrie Curtis (16:56)
Yes.
Yep, absolutely. Absolutely. Yep.
Justin Frenette (17:00)
Awesome. Okay, so next I want to talk about the fact that Kilim has a significant presence in secondary markets, I would call them, and that's actually going to be the next topic of our Precon Recon Report that's going to launch, number two. What are some of the unique challenges, opportunities that you find from a branding and marketing perspective in these regions compared to, say, primary hubs like GTA, Calgary, Vancouver?
Carrie Curtis (17:27)
Yeah, I think, you know, the secondary markets, we love the secondary markets. They are, I want to say, consistent, you know, there's a lot more consistency with them. You're not you're not getting the highs of highs and the lows of lows. You get to be embedded in those communities. And you don't you become, you know, recognizable whether that's, you know, in in when you're building and you have relationships with the the people that you're your consultants and your
Justin Frenette (17:35)
Hmm.
Carrie Curtis (17:56)
your teams and the municipalities, but also it, like you said, you're, you're moving from one, you could move from one building to another, right? And there's that recognizable factor to it. And, you know, it also helps us to really get to know what the communities need. And, you know, what, what a neighborhood is like or not like, and, so you become far more embedded into the community itself. And it also helps us.
Justin Frenette (18:04)
Yep.
Yep.
Carrie Curtis (18:23)
I want to say, you know, we like to do a lot of we do a lot of community building and we do a lot of volunteering within our communities. So things such as, you know, in London, for example, we have a dedicated guest suite for the hospital. So, you know, if there's it's basically held for for high risk pregnancies and for mothers that have to, you know, they're traveling, promoted town and need specialized services in London.
we hold a guest suite for the hospital. So you can really work with your local communities versus sort of being just one member of a giant community. can really embed yourself in the community and make a difference.
Justin Frenette (18:55)
That's amazing.
Yes, I love that. And now, how would you say tenant expectations differ in the secondary markets? Like, do people expect different things in a secondary market than they would in a busy bustling GTA Vancouver? What's your thoughts on that?
Carrie Curtis (19:24)
Yeah,
yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, the biggest one is is really I mean, unit size, unit size, parking and amenities, right. So in in a place places outside of, you know, Toronto, the very heavy centers, they the expectation is that unit sizes are a bit larger. You know, they they have an expectation on, you know, bedroom size or living size. And that's so that's a big one. And even it even
Justin Frenette (19:31)
Okay.
Yep.
Carrie Curtis (19:54)
within those secondary units or secondary markets, the difference between an uptown or downtown unit versus a suburban unit. There's an expectation of cars in that suburban unit, less so in the urban center, but there's still an expectation in an urban center for parking, in an uptown location in that secondary market.
understanding sort of how that shifts, but trying to build a Toronto product in Kitchener, it may work in certain periods of time, in high demand periods of time, but over the long haul, slightly larger units are going to make the difference of your marketability in a secondary market.
Justin Frenette (20:31)
Yep.
Yep.
That makes a lot of sense. And you you talked about amenities. How would you say amenities really differ in a purpose-built rental versus the condos? know, condo roles, can get some pretty fancy amenities. I'm sure purpose-built rental, maybe in the past, amenities were simpler, maybe even in some communities non-existent. Are amenities growing? What are some trends you see in the amenity side?
Carrie Curtis (21:16)
Yeah, you know, it's, it's very, it's very demographic dependent. So, you know, we've there's there's been shifts, a lot of shifts, I mean, part of it, comes down to, you know, what's affordable to even build. You know, we, we will build, you know, a lot of that I want to say the more uptown or urban markets, the expectation, you know, there's always a gym.
Right? I mean, that's sort of mandatory, it's the gym, but you're trying to work with your tenants and what they need. So we're finding a lot of pets. our new buildings have all, we've been incorporating pet spas. So commercial washes for animals because we do find so many, right? So you're sort of working with that tenant need, but some of our, I want to say again, our urban, there's a lot of tech.
Justin Frenette (22:02)
Yep.
Carrie Curtis (22:11)
a lot of sort of work from home. So we're putting in these like co-work pods, right, or working pods so that people can sort of get out of their space and work in these little pods that they seem to, they're just incredibly popular. But, you know, in some locations we're building a building in Calgary. We're going to be starting to build a building in Calgary in the near future where we have about a thousand units and it's overall total. And we're going to be putting in a clubhouse.
Justin Frenette (22:17)
Okay. Yup.
Okay.
Carrie Curtis (22:40)
And we have, we have a similar development in Ottawa where there's a club host facility. So it's a communal facility for, you know, in Ottawa or in Connecticut, it's five buildings. But it has a large facility in the, in the middle with a gym and a, a gym and a pool and, ⁓ and things of that nature that are used by that, by that, by the occupancy there, but there it's a, in that.
regarded as an older demographic. almost, you know, runs as a retirement community in some respects, right? So you're really working those amenities around the demographics that you're seeing in the community and the location.
Justin Frenette (23:15)
I say, yup, yup.
Okay.
And what about like with affordability with, you know, more and more potentially families, young families, growing families, potentially renting, you seeing any more family oriented amenities like kids rooms, playgrounds, daycare centers, like any trends in that direction?
Carrie Curtis (23:44)
Yeah, yes, absolutely. One of the buildings, actually the one that we're talking about in Calgary, it's certainly a large demographic. have a lot of two and three bedroom units. It's a lot of families in a more suburban setting. And so there's lots of open space, trails around, some playground area. And then we're actually in the one building we're putting in pickleball. We're putting in a pickleball court.
Justin Frenette (24:11)
Okay.
Carrie Curtis (24:13)
And things of that nature, right? So you really start to work with the demographics that you're, and the trends, but you want them to be, I want to say transitional. So pickleball may be fantastic now, but we can use it as a basketball court or a gym or training facility and things of that nature. So they want to be versatile. But we have in some buildings, we have golf simulators or it's just, very...
Justin Frenette (24:29)
right.
Yep.
Carrie Curtis (24:41)
the demographics, we certainly work with the demographics that are going to be in a particular space. And we know what we're targeting. mean, if it's a, I want to say, you you're getting into some of those urban buildings, you're not going to see quite as many families, although we do, we do build some some family size suites. But you know, you're going to get sort of, you know, that the young professional who is sort of looking for the pool table or the
Justin Frenette (24:46)
Awesome.
Mm-hmm.
Carrie Curtis (25:09)
you
know, or the cool outdoor patio or whatever it might be. So you kind of have to work with a multitude of tenants, but you know, certainly the amenities are really important in allowing us to build that community and meet your neighbors and all of those things. So yeah.
Justin Frenette (25:26)
Yep. Okay.
And what about product shift across the portfolio? Are you guys leaning or moving towards more luxury units? Do you have mid-market units? Is that shifting based on market conditions? What's going on there?
Carrie Curtis (25:43)
Yeah, it's interesting, We've certainly, I want to say we're shifting, but we're always playing the long game, right? So, you know, when you're thinking about how you're building and when you're building, has to work. It has to work now, but it also has to work in the future. So you don't want to go to swing too far one way or too far the other, right?
You always have to keep that long game in mind and what's going to work for your tenants over the course of the long term. So I would say we certainly are thinking about, know, it's a lot of it is area dependent, suburban versus urban, and the things like underground parking, right? Can we do an urban site or a suburban site without underground parking because the underground parking is so expensive to build? So do we have a little bit more land to work with?
You know, can we build stick versus concrete? You know, we're certainly doing those things, changing the materials in the building and things of that nature to try and create that affordability. And a lot of it's related to scale and location.
Justin Frenette (26:55)
Yep, okay. Now, as you mentioned, broad portfolio, multiple regions, product types. How do you balance internal marketing team versus vendors like ourselves who, you know, we've worked together on a couple of projects. How do you make that decision internally building out the team? What do you keep in house versus when's the right time to bring a partner in?
Carrie Curtis (27:17)
Well, you know, it's really interesting because when you're working across a country and you have your, I want to say your head office located in one space, in one area, it's so important to have local partners, right? Because they know the local market and that's
I want to say the greatest benefit we have of having the local partners, where we can rely on sort of the local knowledge of the market, you know, how to brand a building locally, what the competition looks like locally. And so we're very reliant on our partners, you know, in those regions sort of outside of, you know, where we're located from a head office perspective.
You know, we're great with doing some of our own, I'd say like our day-to-day stuff, we can market on our own as far as, you know, posting things and, you know, from all of our existing buildings, right? So we have our sort of internal network of people that we communicate with. But when it comes down to especially the new builds, how are we going to differentiate ourselves?
What's the market saying? What are our competitors looking like? And who are we specifically marketing to in a specific neighborhood? What does that neighborhood need and looking for? So that's really where we rely heavily on our partners across the country.
Justin Frenette (29:03)
Okay. And then I also like, there's a scale I find there's, there's developers that the product is all finished, wrapped with a bow and they bring in the marketing firm and say, stick a name and a brand on it to branding at pretty early phase of you've got a structure and a site plan together, but final architectural interior design decisions haven't been made. Where on that scale are you typically bringing a vendor in because you know,
Carrie Curtis (29:16)
Yes.
Justin Frenette (29:33)
We've done both and we've definitely seen the value in the earlier you start, the more it's a cohesive piece. Where do you guys sit on that spectrum?
Carrie Curtis (29:41)
Yeah, and I think we've, as we continue to build more and more, we're getting, I want to say early and earlier in the process. And I find that there's a strong partnership, especially when you're working with local people. So in Waterloo, where we are, it's having people that have worked together before from an interior design, from an architecture, from the branding and marketing, all of those pieces.
Justin Frenette (29:50)
Mm.
Yep.
Carrie Curtis (30:11)
There's a lot of dialogue, there's a lot of synergies. And so it helps to have everybody sort of on the same page and giving their ideas and their thoughts right from the beginning, because it's a lot easier to sort of integrate the team early on and come up with that vision and start it early. And really like set the tone, right? Set the tone early. You can go to market when you want to go to market.
But having the strategy and the elements such as logos, branding, all of those things in place, it's really important to have that right off the hop so you can get ready to put your presence out there as soon as you're ready to put your presence out there.
Justin Frenette (30:57)
Yep, that makes sense. And then, you know, if we talk about purpose-built rentals, obviously pre-construction condos, the market's at an interesting point. There's a lot of people launching, a lot of people holding, waiting and seeing. Do you find the same effect on the rental side or is rental market pretty consistent compared to condo?
Carrie Curtis (31:20)
it's funny, this market, it's, it's, so, it's so jurisdictional. I will say, you know, you know, I have the opportunity to travel quite a bit and, you know, when I'm in Alberta, I mean, the amount of building that's happening in Alberta, ⁓ is, is it's insane, right? Whether it's single family home or condo or like it, I mean, it, they're, they're building in Alberta.
Justin Frenette (31:24)
you
Yeah. Yeah.
Yep.
Carrie Curtis (31:45)
You know, you go to Halifax right now, there's, you know, between condo and apartment, there's, you know, 35 to 40 cranes. They're not stopping in those jurisdictions. So, you know, it's a lot of that is, it's regional. But I will say in this current space, especially in, you know, the Southern Ontario market, there's, I want to say at this stage of the game, distinct advantage.
Justin Frenette (31:54)
Well.
Carrie Curtis (32:15)
for apartments in some of the opportunities through CMHC and some of the CMHC programs. There are some opportunities for the apartment space that's not there for the condo space at this stage of the game. And again, it comes down to two, the deposits and all of those things.
you know, the condo developers, if they can't get those deposits and they can't, they don't have buyers, they're not going to build without the buyers. ⁓ and so it's, they're very dependent on, on that piece. Whereas the apartment you're, you're not as dependent on that, but you're also, you're also taking your own set of risks and, and to really up fronting that money, which is right. So you're committing, you're committing and you're, you're all in, right. And, ⁓ and you're, you're
Justin Frenette (32:59)
Yep. You gotta commit.
Carrie Curtis (33:10)
You know, also have to accommodate for carrying costs at that end where, you know, from a perspective of a condo, you know, if you can pre-sale and you've got your pre-sales in and you know how many you're going to be, you've sold and all of that stuff, you have a bit more certainty in that element. Whereas when you're building the apartment, you're affronting it and then you...
hope your leasing is very successful and that you're, you know, you're in a quick lease up and enabled to get the rents you need to be able to finance that project. you know, very different realms. But I would say at this stage of the game, you know, there are some additional incentives really because of some of the CMHC programs and so forth that allow us to move forward with some of the apartment builds that were
Justin Frenette (33:38)
You
Yup.
Carrie Curtis (34:05)
we're looking to do.
Justin Frenette (34:05)
Okay. Now I think in the
report, it's almost ready, but I think there's a stat, 20 to 30 % of developers traditionally pre-construction condo or exploring purpose-built rentals, some of these incentives. What do you think is the biggest challenge or unexpected challenge they're going to face in making a switch if they pull the trigger? What do you think is going to catch them by surprise?
Carrie Curtis (34:17)
Yeah.
Yeah, it's the financing is a big one, right? Because you have to you have there's a lot of upfront money. And so being able to have that capital upfront is, is it's important. And then, you know, being able to then carry it if you if your lease up is slow, you got to be able to carry it. And then at the end of it,
Justin Frenette (34:36)
Okay.
Yep.
Yep.
Carrie Curtis (34:58)
you have to take into account all of those operational costs. you know, you it's that mindset is very, very different right from the beginning is, you know, mechanically, how are we going to, you know, make this building efficient? And, you know, it's you're not, you're not picking the necessarily the cheapest options, you're picking, picking out the options with the greatest longevity and the greatest, you know, operational savings along the way. So
Justin Frenette (35:20)
Right.
Carrie Curtis (35:28)
Your upfront costs are going to be sometimes, sometimes they're going to be higher based on those choices to save you in the long run, which is a very different mindset than if you're building and then selling those units.
Justin Frenette (35:41)
Yes, okay, that makes sense. Well, okay, Carrie, I've got one last question for you. Looking ahead, what are some of the trends or innovations you see that you're most excited about in any aspect of the development lifecycle? You touch all aspects of it. So what are maybe one or two that are getting you excited that you think is gonna have a big impact?
Carrie Curtis (35:47)
Sure.
Well, I would say from an excited perspective, it may not be a trend, I, you know, for us as Killam, our growth in different markets. you know, I'm excited, personally, I'm excited about our growth in BC. You know, a few years ago, we purchased some buildings on the islands and, you know, they've been fantastic buildings. It's a great place to be.
⁓ so watching our growth out west is, is going to be a lot of fun and, and exciting to be part of. The other thing I feel like I'm excited, but scared about at the same time is, you know, as we move into, ⁓ you know, the ESG pieces, ⁓ a lot of the mechanical trends and mechanical advances that are being made, you know, the traditional systems are sort of,
they're, I want to say not done, but you know, with the financing requirements and all of the things that we need to do to make our buildings energy efficient, the mechanical trends are, you know, they seem to be changing, you know, annually, if not faster, but I mean, as we build it's, you know, it's, we're always continually evaluating mechanical systems, which is exciting, but scary at the same time, because, you know, you're,
Justin Frenette (37:13)
Bye.
Probably a lot of unknowns with new technology.
Carrie Curtis (37:27)
new technologies
and things of that nature. So, you know, I'm excited about it. But, you know, it's a lot of evaluation and, you know, being an engineering nerd, is, I suppose, exciting from my end. yeah, I think those are some of the things that are, I want to say exciting, but, you know, it's building is building, you know, is fun. It really is fun in it.
It's rewarding at the end.
Justin Frenette (37:57)
What
about, know there's lots of new technology coming out like prefab, pre-built, like is that whole space being explored by Killam as well in some of your buildings or? Yeah.
Carrie Curtis (38:05)
Yep.
Yes, yeah, we, you
know, we work, I would say continually exploring every like we, you know, from we're doing, know, we're doing some some wood frame structures, we're doing concrete structures, we're doing precast, we're doing, you know, right now, we've got, you know, basically three, three projects we're working on locally that, you know, one precast, one cast in place and one, one wood structure.
So, you know, we're definitely doing different things in different, for different buildings and seeing, you know, what's efficient, what's working. And so, yeah, definitely different, looking at different materialities and it's fun to try new things. But, know, in mass timber, you know, there's always changes in mass timber and...
and the building codes are all changing. And so there's so many things that we have to be on top of right now. And we can go higher with wood now, but insurance costs are higher with wood. so it's just, there's a lot of moving parts and it's a puzzle, but it's an exciting puzzle to work with. yeah.
Justin Frenette (39:22)
Big puzzle.
Yeah.
That's awesome. Okay. Well, I've been talking to Carrie Curtis. Carrie, for people who want to learn more about you, where can we send them?
Carrie Curtis (39:35)
please send them to our website and you can find us on the web sort of everywhere, lots of locations in seven provinces and we are also a publicly traded company so we can be found at, I should know this off the top of my head because I, it's, no, we are at KMP. as our ticker.
Justin Frenette (40:05)
Okay, amazing. Carrie, thanks so much for joining me on the Precon Recon podcast brought to you by him and her.
Carrie Curtis (40:11)
Perfect.