Rocky IV (Episode 10) - Apollo vs Drago: The Brutal Fight That Changed Everything

In this episode of Going the Distance – The Rocky Series Podcast, Ryan is joined by special guest host Big Gun Doug Greenberg from the Rocky Minute podcast for a deep, scene-by-scene breakdown of the brutal exhibition fight between Apollo Creed and Ivan Drago.

From Apollo's showmanship and "born again" foreshadowing, the intense size disparity and Drago's devastating power, referee Lou Filippo's inaction, Tony "Duke" Burton's desperate pleas, Rocky's anguish, and the heartbreaking conclusion with Drago's cold "If he dies, he dies," we explore the violence, themes, behind-the-scenes stories (including Carl Weathers & Dolph Lundgren tensions), cultural context (Joe Louis vs. Max Schmeling), and why this PG-rated beatdown still hits hard.

We also touch on Apollo's motivations, pride, family, and legacy that carries into the Creed films. A raw, fun, and emotional discussion between two massive Rocky fans!

• 0:00 - Intro & Welcoming Big Gun Doug Greenberg
• 2:58 - First Rocky Memories & Clubber Lang Trauma
• 8:02 - Announcers, West vs East, & Historical Inspirations
• 11:32 - Apollo & Rocky's Debt to Each Other
• 15:00 - Leroy Neiman, Ring Setup & Crowd Energy
• 20:46 - Drago Entrance & King Kong Analogy
• 28:15 - Pre-Fight Instructions & Trash Talk
• 30:07 - Round 1: The Brutal Beatdown Begins
• 42:40 - Between Rounds – Apollo's "No Matter What"
• 50:50 - Apollo Down & "If He Dies, He Dies"
• 54:38 - Drago's Lines & Post-Fight Chaos
• 1:00:56 - Final Thoughts on Rocky IV & Outro

Creators and Guests

Host

Ryan Rebalkin

Guest

Doug Greenberg

He has Big Guns

What is Going The Distance: The Rocky Series Podcast?

Step into the ring with *Going The Distance: The Rocky Series Podcast*, the ultimate celebration of Sylvester Stallone's iconic underdog saga. Hosted by passionate Rocky superfan Ryan Rebalkin, this dedicated feed dives deep into every punch, montage, and heartfelt moment of the *Rocky* franchise—one film at a time, in glorious chronological order.

Whether you're reliving the gritty streets of Philadelphia in the original *Rocky* or breaking down the epic family legacy in *Rocky Balboa*, Ryan brings the energy of a champion. Joined by his brother Ruban, fellow superfans, amateur boxers and even musicians behind the films' anthems (shoutout to Robert Tepper's "No Easy Way Out"), each episode unpacks scenes with infectious enthusiasm, behind-the-scenes trivia, and personal stories that capture why *Rocky* still inspires millions to "go the distance."

From dissecting the legendary training montages and rematches, this podcast isn't just analysis—it's a knockout conversation that honors the heart, humor, and hustle of the Italian Stallion. It's perfect for die-hard fans, casual viewers, and anyone chasing their own eye-of-the-tiger moment.

Tune in for laughs, insights, and motivation that hits harder than Apollo Creed's left hook. Lace up your boots—it's time to go the distance!

Going The Distance - Rocky IV - Episode 10.mp3
You guys do a good job.
You know, I'm proud of you.
I appreciate that, man.
Coming from you, it means a lot.
All right.
So I will get started.
Okay.
Okay.
Perfect.
Okay.
So this will be episode 80.
Just so I can announce that.
Okay.
All right.
You ready?
Are you going to intro me?
Or how do we do that?
Well, Doug, did you want to be...
Did you want to introduce the show?
I don't know.
I'm new to this.
The guest thing on yours.
So I don't know.
Oh, my goodness.
Okay.
Well, here we go.
All right.
Welcome, everyone, to the Rocky Series podcast, Going the Distance.
I am Ryan.
And with me today, we have a very special guest host.
His name is Big Gun Doug Greenberg.
You probably have heard him on our show a few times because Doug, from the Rocky Minute podcast,
has been on with me and Craig from the Slycast, as we've covered Stallone films that aren't Rocky films.
That's a project that we are continuing to do.
In fact, the episode after this one will be a review of Assassins.
So stand by for that.
Doug, it's a pleasure to have you on here.
Say hi to the folks.
Hi, folks.
Hi, Ryan.
And thank you so much for having me as an official part of Going the Distance.
Thank you.
Yeah, absolutely.
So I've got a couple of guest hosts that I like to go through, and I want Doug to be one of them.
And Doug, you're more than qualified.
You run your own podcast called the Rocky Minute podcast, and you guys are currently on Rocky 2 Season 2 yourselves,
and you break down the Rocky franchise one minute at a time.
Yeah, that's one minute of movie time at a time.
Our first season that we completed is 118 episodes long.
That's crazy.
That's very ambitious.
I mean, this is episode 88 for me and Ruben and the Rocky Series podcast.
At first, I remember when I met you guys, and I heard that you guys were doing something.
I was a little bit nervous.
It's okay.
There can't be enough Rocky talk.
And I personally am a fan of your show, so I listen to your show religiously.
One, because we're at Rocky 4, so we're ahead of you a little bit.
There's no one way to talk about Rocky.
And so for you guys to talk about Rocky, for us to talk about Rocky, if people get bored of it, then my goodness,
it's not quite the franchise that we think it is.
Yeah, it's healthy to have different takes on the same subject.
I mean, there's 100 Star Wars podcasts and Star Trek podcasts out there, so there's definitely plenty of room for all Rocky fans.
And obviously, we came up in probably about the same time and the same atmosphere.
A lot of our opinions on Rocky are similar, but our take to our individual shows are going to be different.
Absolutely.
Yeah, we're about the same age.
I think I'm a little bit older than you.
So yeah, we definitely come from the same.
I don't think, yeah, I turned 43 in a few days, actually.
All right.
I turned 40 earlier in the year, so only a couple years.
Yeah.
So what was your first movie, Rocky movie, in the theater?
I also am a fan of your show.
I just want to put that out there.
Oh, sure.
I'm not current in your coverage of Rocky IV because I don't want your coverage to influence our coverage as we're going through the movies.
I've only listened up to where we have already recorded up to in Rocky II.
Right.
That makes sense.
By the way, Rocky I, bang up job.
And so far, what you've done for Rocky II is incredible.
And I've listened to all your interviews and special episodes.
You guys, I love your show.
Thank you.
I am likewise a fan of your show.
Oh, wow.
In anticipation of my first appearance on your show, I thought about this, like trying to remember what my first experience with Rocky is.
Because you ask all your guests that, right?
Yeah.
I'm pretty sure it was Rocky III.
And I think I might have seen it in, I don't know, I would have been four years old in 1982.
Yes.
I don't know if I saw it in the movies.
What I remember specifically about Rocky III, I must have seen it on TV at home.
Clubber Lang, the slow motion punches at Rocky, like when he's gritting his teeth and he's showing his mouthpiece.
That frightened me as a kid.
Well, sure.
Clubber Lang was like a monster.
You know what I mean?
Oh, yeah.
The slow down, the music, Rocky's fading vision, you know, the tunnel vision he gets.
Yep.
Which is also in Rocky II.
Yeah.
But it's just everything that surrounds those moments, like when it slows down and the music gets all...
It's a brutal, it's a violent, it's a violent sequence.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Sure is.
That's my earliest memories of it.
And speaking of violent sequences, we got a doozy for you today.
I just want to say, we're probably going to touch on this, obviously, as we break down simply an exhibition fight between Apollo and Drago.
It's all in an exhibition.
This is one of the most brutal beatdowns on film that's rated PG I think they could have ever done.
I can't believe I got this scene.
I was so amped when you told me which scene I was covering.
You're a lucky man, my friend.
You're as handsome as you are lucky.
So on our previous episode, Ruben and I finished with the dance routine with James Brown and Apollo just loving it.
We talked about that, how he was just loving the...
We call it the Apollo show.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
So he wanted to go out with style.
Now, do you have a thought before we get to the fight with Drago?
Did Apollo have some sort of...
Like, we know as a viewer the foreshadow that's coming.
Yeah.
But what did Apollo know?
Did he feel he could beat Drago?
This is another thing I've been thinking about.
And, like, for years I have been thinking about what Apollo's motivation is here.
Like, he's certainly putting on this big elaborate show as, like, a send-off into retirement, right?
On the surface, that's what it seems.
Right.
It's like a celebration of his life and his career and...
Yeah.
Yeah.
Like, are you going to go scene by scene, like, step by step?
Or should we not talk about the end part yet?
Oh, we're going to go...
Yeah, we'll talk about the whole fight.
And right till when Drago's staring down Rocky there.
That's where we'll probably end.
As of right now, I'm looking at this as, like, he is kicking off his retirement in style.
That's it, eh?
So do you think he...
For now.
Do you think Apollo thinks he can win?
Because even when Rocky talks to him in the locker and says, you know, why don't we wait a couple weeks?
And Apollo doesn't sound as confident, even though he says the words, oh, I'm in the best shape of my life.
Does he believe it?
I think so.
Okay.
Because you mentioned the Apollo Creed show.
He's been arrogant from the start.
Right.
About his, you know, about his skill and everything.
So I think he really thinks he could believe him, knowing nothing about this guy, which is concerning.
And also keep in mind, during this time, his love child is somewhere in somebody's belly.
Is that...
Would she be pregnant with him right now?
I think so.
I think so.
Because I don't think Adonis Creed Jr. there, I don't think he was born yet during the events of this fight.
That's interesting.
Because Adonis, the actor Michael B. Jordan, he's 30-something, isn't he?
Yeah.
The actor's 30-something.
I think...
I want to say I've talked about this somewhere down the line, but I can't remember with who or when.
But I think he's, in the original Creed, he's coming up on 30, right?
Right.
You know, that would make sense with...
I know the timeline of Rocky is screwy, and we can't really put the math to it.
But I think the idea would be that he would be an infant at the most because of the age that Adonis already is with the events after this fight.
Yeah.
I can't even wrap my head around it right now.
This is 85, but I think it takes place in, like, 84, maybe?
Right.
So that's not too bad.
So let's say it takes place in 85, the year that it was released.
That means Adonis is 33 now with Creed II.
Okay.
So...
I would say he's a few years younger than that, though.
Yeah, probably the character in real life.
But who knows?
That being said, I find it interesting that Adonis kind of peaks with his career at the same age gap that Rocky was, that he peaked.
Yeah, that's what made me initially think that he was about 30.
Yeah.
So we start off with this scene.
We got the announcers here, and we'll just play that right now for a sec.
Good evening, everyone.
Along with Warner Wolf, I'm Stu Nahan, and we welcome you to a most unusual event for the first time ever.
West against East and professional sports.
So this is Stu Nahan announcing the fight.
So Stu Nahan, I think, passed away before this was actually in theaters, I think.
Really?
Yeah.
Let's go to the IMDB.
Let's see if American internet is quicker than Canadian.
Died in 2007.
Oh, so he died in 2007.
Okay.
So it's the other guy.
I think it's the other announcer.
I can't remember the other announcer.
This guy here?
Well, the guy on the right.
So there's...
That's Warner Wolf.
Warner Wolf is also still alive.
Okay.
No, but I mean, he replaced...
There was a couple of announcers that were there for Rocky 1 and 2.
I can't remember the other guy's name.
Bill Baldwin.
He's the one that passed away before one of the releases of the films that he was in.
Died November 17, 1982.
So I think he died either during the Rocky 3 release or shortly thereafter type thing.
So this guy next to Stu Nahan, what's his name?
Warner Wolf.
He looks like Frank Stallone.
He does have some Stallone droopy face in him, doesn't he?
Oh my goodness.
Look at that.
He's like Stallone's cousin.
Right.
He's like just a little bit Stallone.
He's like Stallone light.
So they're really plugging this West versus East.
They're really making this a big deal about the country versus country.
Do you know the motivation or the inspiration behind this?
Like the real world?
Yeah.
The real world inspiration behind the West versus East thing?
I don't know if I know the official official.
I have some speculation.
And we talked about the idea of Russia and the US were at each other's throats for quite a bit.
The real life inspiration for this ideology is the Joe Lewis versus Max Schmeling bouts that took place in the 30s.
Okay.
Explain.
Joe Lewis obviously being an American boxer, Max Schmeling being born in Germany.
The tensions, the pre-World War II.
And there were two fights that they fought.
They were both before World War II.
The first one was 1936.
And the second one was 1938.
Max Schmeling won the first one in over 13 by knockout.
Joe Lewis won the second, the rematch in 1938 in the second round knockout.
But that was the one in 38 carried more weight because Hitler was just like coming to power and the Nazi party had already established itself in Austria.
Right.
I mean, that had like a lot of political implications there.
Oh, wow.
But it was like a whole like West versus East thing.
Joe Lewis being an African-American fighter living in America, of course, like it was high tensions at that time.
Yeah.
Hitler wasn't a big fan of blacks.
He certainly was not.
Wasn't the, wasn't 38 the Olympics?
Yeah.
Didn't he like walk away or something like that when he got his medals or something?
Yeah.
He wouldn't participate because Carl Weathers was, was that Carl Weathers?
Carl, uh.
Carl Weathers.
Yeah.
I think Carl Weathers of 1938 Olympics.
Who was the track star?
Well, Carl Lewis was even later than Carl Weathers.
Jeez.
Carl.
Oh, man.
Okay.
Forget it.
Delete that whole part.
That was.
Oh, you know, it won't be.
I'm sorry.
Ramblings of a maniac.
Thanks for getting me here, Stallion.
I owe you one.
Okay.
Oh, no, no, no.
We're even.
God, I feel going again.
Okay.
So Apollo says here, thanks for getting me here, Stallion.
I owe you one.
And then Rocky goes, no, no, no, no, no.
We're even.
Now, who's who owes who now?
Let's see.
Apollo gave him the shot in the first place.
Rocky gave him the rematch.
Right.
So they were even there.
Right.
Yeah.
And then Apollo kind of lived through former glory by training Rocky for the rematch against
Clubber.
Which he owed him a favor for, which was fight number three.
That's right.
That nobody.
That we found out the winner who the winner of that was in Creed one.
Right.
Right.
And then Apollo says, come in my corner one last time.
And so that's what the he owes you one.
So there you go.
Okay.
All right.
But did it Rocky say in Rocky three friends don't know.
They do it because they want to do.
I love your Rocky impression, by the way.
Thanks.
There was, I think in the novelization, there was, when he says, thanks for getting me here,
I think because Apollo was really taking his training lightly and Rocky almost walked away.
Oh, really?
Yeah.
Because he didn't want to be a part of it.
And he kind of kicked Apollo into high gear.
So there was a little bit of training that we see in the novelization.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Maybe that thanks for getting me here is like, thanks for pushing me.
I don't know.
Yeah.
But like you said, friends don't know.
Friends don't know.
They do it because they want to.
Now Apollo says, man, I feel born again.
Talk about foreshadowing 101.
That's if I know that's, that's as elementary as it gets.
Like Sly's a great writer.
You write great, but I'm a great writer.
Nice.
Oh my goodness.
I wonder if there's anyone in the audience who didn't catch this.
There's one question I actually want to ask on Reddit and I don't know how I'm going to be able to do it or if it's going to catch on.
Because we have Rocky IV, the death of Apollo.
You have Empire Strikes Back, Vader being revealed as Luke's father.
I want to ask like people of that time that went to the theaters during that time.
How good were spoilers back then?
Were people respectful of spoilers?
Because people talked to the water cooler.
Like how many people went to the movie theater not knowing about Luke and how long, you know, was the movie out for?
There's no way people watch Rocky IV or not know about Apollo's death.
But I guess there is.
I guess there's just people who don't know.
Well, as far as the Empire Strikes Back thing, they hid it from the actors themselves.
The guy that was wearing the Darth Vader suit, he had him say a different line to Luke Skywalker to keep it a surprise.
The only person that knew was George Lucas and James Earl Jones who actually said the line up until the release of the movies.
But after that, I don't know like how long they were able to keep the lid on.
Find out more on Star Wars Minute.
Yeah, I'm sorry.
So this is actually an interesting shot here of the ring and the crowd behind the ring.
I know, again, we've mentioned this on our show before, that they never think that anyone's going to microanalyze this show.
It's just a weird setup now when you see the ring.
It doesn't quite look like the ring that came out of the bottom of the basement.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah, like it really looks like a movie set, prop set.
And you've got this, you know, 100 people behind the ring.
So there's nobody on the other side of the ring.
So all the audience is on one side.
Yeah, it's definitely a weird setup because isn't the crowd there sitting at like tables?
Yeah.
It's not like an arena.
That's right.
It's like some sort of theater experience with like...
Yeah, yeah.
Almost like a fundraising.
Yeah, exactly.
Do you know who the white suit wearing announcer guy is?
With the crazy mustache?
I used to know the name.
Leroy Neiman?
That's right.
He is the painter.
Oh, that's right.
That's the painter.
Yeah, he was doing the Creed drawing in Rocky II.
That's right.
When Creed was training, Apollo was training.
And that's the famous paintings we see of Apollo and Rocky throwing a punch at each other.
I think Mike Kunda has that painting in his room.
Yes.
Correct.
And there's another painting of Rocky with a big, huge, like, him with his gloves together,
like, arms together.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Slouched down a little bit or whatever you kind of pose.
Is he wearing the championship belt in that one?
Yeah, I think so.
Yeah.
I see it in my head.
That's an amazing mustache.
I wonder at what point he decided...
That's incredible.
You know, I'm going to keep going with this thing.
Was that his goal at the beginning?
In the long shot of him, it just looks like a giant smile.
Like a Joker smile.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
So the announcer, Leroy, announces, of course, you know, Rocky Balboa, who at this time is
the legitimate heavyweight champion of the world.
Yes.
At this time, he is.
And the crowd just goes nuts.
Yeah.
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome.
I would like to announce the presence of a true fighting champion that defines the word
courage.
The Italian stallion, Rocky Balboa.
Excuse me, would you?
Oh, certainly.
Rocky!
Yeah, excuse me.
I've got to go out here and say hi to the guys.
He does like a little duck face kiss to the crowd.
Oh, yeah.
Look at this.
Look at that.
Look at that little duck.
He sucked in his cheeks a little bit.
Yeah.
He did a little like, you know, like, he's tough being sly.
Settle down, sly.
And Adrian just loves it.
And she's got this face afterwards like, oh, man, that's my guy after this fight's over.
You think she's already gotten it in her mind?
It's like, I love when people cheer for my man.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
Now we go into the slew of names here.
Oh, yeah.
Tonight's special event features two great athletes.
In the blue corner, weighing 221 pounds, a former heavyweight champion of the world, the dancing destroyer, the king of sting, the count of Monte Pisto.
Yo, you think you got enough names?
Patience, dad.
What's that?
The master of disaster, the one and only Apollo 3.
121 pounds.
Mm-hmm.
Dancing destroyer.
Nice.
I like that one.
The king of sting.
And the count of Monte Pisto, which is one of my favorites.
That's definitely my favorite.
He says, oh, you think you got enough names?
Hey, yo.
Hey, yo, hey.
I only got the Italian stellate.
I don't.
Do you think you can come up with another name for me, too, there, Apollo?
Keep it going, please.
It's like, the longer you do it, the farther off from Rocky you get.
I know.
Like Ribbon says in the show sometimes, oh, let me make this clear, you're not a professional impersonator?
No.
Yeah, yeah.
No, I'm not.
What else could you call me there, Apollo?
Sandy Beach Rocky?
Remember when we were on the beach and you threw me that hug?
Oh, man.
So, he says, patience, Stanley.
We're almost done.
But during this time, there's still more names being read off that we don't hear as an audience.
I wonder what they were.
Like, come on, Rocky.
Stop interrupting the titles.
And the Drago's looking over there like, oh, my gosh, this is.
The something of boxing is one of them.
Yeah.
And the master of disaster.
And Paulie's still got that stupid skull on the staff in the ring there.
And he's bouncing up and down.
Paulie's just like an accessory.
Yeah.
He's like a sideshow.
In Rocky IV in particular, and of course, we'll be talking about this, as you will on your show, come season four, ten years from now.
No, I'm just joking.
I wonder when both of our seasons will be the same year.
I don't think it will.
Well, it depends on how long you take in between.
We break down our show scene by scene as well.
But, like, for example, we're covering our tenders to cover this fight, right?
But it's more than a minute long.
So we do the same kind of format you guys do.
You do literally one minute of time, which I really like.
So it forces your hand.
Yeah.
There's times I'm not jealous.
I'm like, man, that's awesome.
Get so deep in it.
Yeah.
And I thought we got deep.
But, boy, if you really want to go deep, go deep.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We're really handcuffed by those 60 seconds.
That's awesome.
That's really cool.
Even if it cuts off, like, in the middle of a word or a sentence, that's where we end it.
That's awesome.
So the crowd is just going crazy.
And you watch UFC and stuff.
Does the crowd go that crazy for that long when people are announced?
I can't remember.
Maybe they do with some people.
I think it's more in, like, professional wrestling.
I see it more because it's more of a show.
I mean, this is kind of like that, right?
It's more of a show.
So I can see why people are making a big deal about it up front.
Right.
It's supposed to be an exhibition.
We'll get there.
We'll get there.
Get up my saliva.
Duck's working so I can spit the way he does.
A crowd anticipating a great fight now as Apollo is in the ring.
He's playing to the crowd.
In the red corner, weighing an even 261 pounds, gold medalist and undefeated world amateur champion from the Soviet Union,
the Siberian ball, Ivan Dragold.
I want you.
I want you.
I want you.
261 pounds.
He's got Apollo Creed by 40 pounds.
That's crazy.
So the crowd is now just, like, booing, booing Drago.
Yeah.
Just, they already hate him.
There's vitriol there.
Yeah.
Now, I made an analogy last episode.
You won't hear until you're covered already on Rocky IV, apparently.
Came off the top of my head.
I'm hoping I get an answer.
Derek Wayne Johnson there.
He said that he would ask Sly again for me.
Wow.
I know.
And I hope I'm not overstepping my balance.
I was going to say, going to the well too many times.
Yeah.
Well, no.
But I did.
But no, he voluntarily said he was going to do that.
It wasn't me asking.
Okay.
Yeah.
Oh, let me make that clear.
Because Derek listened to the episode and he sent me a good job of the analogy.
I said, yeah, thanks.
I just came up with it.
And then I just said, I wonder if Sly knew that when he wrote this part of the movie.
And here it is.
And I honestly didn't say, go ask him for me, Derek.
No, no.
Derek's awesome.
As we all know, he's the best.
The analogy was is that when Draco came up out of the ring on display to the audience,
it reminded me of King Kong.
The original?
Yeah.
The idea that King Kong the beast was brought from a foreign land and on display for all these
rich white people.
Oh, yeah.
And they're like in fear and they're, you know, and they're in fear and mocking this creature.
And then the creature is in chains.
But we know right now, Draco in theory is in chains.
But when the beast is unleashed, the fear and terror that he causes in the ring.
That's a great analogy.
Yeah.
Not to toot my own horn, but it literally came to me in a spark of like, Draco's the King Kong.
He's the beast from the east on display for his power and his destruction.
And then the crowd's not in fear until he destroys Apollo, the same way King Kong breaks his chains
and destroys people in the theater.
Hmm.
Yeah.
Now I'll have to remember not to step on your toes when we do Rocky IV.
I would love his like, Doug's like, you just came to me.
Yeah.
Would that be the end of our friendship?
I think.
No, no, no.
Don't be silly.
Yeah.
Your first Derek Wayne Johnson question.
Now, stay tuned to Rocky Minute, folks, because in the next couple of weeks, I shout you and
Derek out for that question.
Great.
Yeah, please do.
Shout me out all you want.
Yeah.
Oh, I do.
I do.
All right.
So watch the Lobos.
Now the two fighters come to the center of the ring for the instructions from referee Lou Filippo.
You boys know the rules.
Watch the Lobos, kidney punches, rabbit punches.
In case of a knockdown, you go to the corner I tell you to, and you stay there until I tell
you to come out.
Shake hands.
Let's have a good fight.
Kidney punches.
And now Apollo's like, you know, getting on his tippy toes to look at Drago in the eyes.
He's, you know, being cocky, having fun.
Yeah, he's doing it like in a joking manner.
Yeah.
But Drago ain't having it.
No.
The referee is Lou Filippo, right?
Yeah.
That guy's the real life referee.
So what's the rabbit punch?
You know, the old classic black and white movies?
Yeah.
Put up your dukes, G.
Put up your dukes.
Yeah.
I think it's that kind of punch when you have both arms up, kind of like, and the knuckles
are facing outwards, and you're going up and down, up and down with your hands.
Why would that be illegal, though?
Like, because think about the, you just like go out with the punch, like.
Oh, I got it.
It's a sharp chop with the edge of the hand to the back of the neck.
Ooh.
There you go.
The internet, man.
Yeah, I just liked my own theory.
Why Google things?
Just make it up.
I mean, you're on the internet after all, so it has to be true, right?
Well, yeah.
You know how many times I've been cited on my show?
Ryan said on the Rocky podcast.
You have to do those corrections episodes.
Oh, man.
I get people messaging us, just so you know.
Oh, please.
Well, actually.
Actually, Rocky took place in 1976, see?
So all your impressions are bad.
Oh, yeah, I know.
Not just Rocky.
I love all comments, negative or otherwise.
Or not negative, but, you know.
I always tell people, we're not qualified to do this, so please, by all means, correct us.
Even if they're negative, you know they're listening.
Yeah, we have this one lady on our YouTube channel, because our episodes get released there simultaneously.
We interviewed this comedian, Brad Upton.
I don't know if you ever listened to that episode.
I did, yes.
I don't know if you saw the review that she gave us, because I posted it on Twitter, but
she just said, blah, blah, blah.
Stop talking, you two, and let the real star talk.
Shut your trap, or something like that.
It was your show.
Yeah, I know.
So I said it to Brad, and he just said, shaking my head.
Oh, really?
Yeah, yeah.
He thought it was ridiculous this lady said that.
That's crazy.
But I loved it.
I showed her the ribbon, too, of course, and we just both laughed.
We thought it was hilarious, because, I don't know, I find negative reviews funny.
I don't know, we're going to have to wait for our first one to see.
Oh.
Oh, I can leave it for if you want.
All right, so Paul says, I'm going to take you to school, son.
All right, it's time to go to school, son.
Come on, get your hands up, man.
You need an interpreter?
It's time to go to school.
You're going to lose.
All right.
Put your hands up, son.
Yeah.
He's winking, winking at Rocky.
He goes, what do you need, an interpreter?
It's time to go to school.
Oh, yeah.
And he smashes Drago's hands down.
Of course, Drago don't move.
No, he didn't move an inch.
But then there's some, like, nervous looks and laughter.
Yeah, and Drago says, you'll lose.
But still, like, even after that, he's as confident as can be.
He had, like, those couple of seconds of, like, nervous laughter, but then now it's back to...
Well, yeah, but he looks at Rocky, and Rocky is not looking happy about this.
No, he's not.
Rocky knows something's up.
He's so distracted he forgets his mouthpiece.
So Frank Stallone says here, I can't get over the size of this guy.
All right.
The bad blood between these two can be felt all over this.
You can't get over the size of this Russian.
We'll call him, uh, that is Sal Stallone.
Yeah, that's right.
Yeah, that's better.
Yeah, this is Sal.
Cousin Sal.
Cousin Sal Stallone acting as a reporter here.
They got these little, like, broches on their lapels here, too.
These, like, little rose carnations.
These announcer dudes.
Like, this is a real gala event here.
Like, who wears those at a...
At a boxing event?
And they also mention that Apollo's fixing his hair.
You know, he's...
How much...
Look.
How much work can he do with his hair with his glove on?
Let's be honest.
Well, remember in the first one, aren't they actually combing it?
Yeah, that's right.
So he's doing his best.
It's showtime!
It's showtime!
And again, Apollo yells out, it's showtime!
It's showtime!
So he just, again, just thinks this is a show and it's going to be fun.
Does he want to knock out Drago?
Like, is that his intent?
Yeah.
I think he wants to prove to the world that he's the best, America's the best,
that whatever kind of crap Russia tries to put out there has nothing on the U.S.
That's my thought.
Oh, yeah.
So Rocky puts in Apollo's mouthpiece.
Excuse me.
Did you forget something?
Oh, no.
Actually, this is a great...
Let me just snip this.
This is a funny picture.
You're going to love it when you see it.
Oh, my God.
What is it?
I will send it to your messenger.
Oh, my gosh.
Check out this.
Oh, no.
It looks like he's kissing his finger.
Yeah.
It's smelling dirty Sanchez.
Oh, my...
But you look at Rocky's face, too.
He's, like, enjoying it.
Guess what I had for lunch?
Oh, my God.
You have to post that.
Should I post it as a caption contest?
After the episode comes out?
Oh, my gosh.
Oh, my gosh.
It's friggin' beautiful.
Actually, no.
I'm going to post it before to say we caught this image as we were recording.
Captured it for us.
Oh, that's a great picture.
Oh, I can't believe I caught that.
That's hilarious.
I can't either.
That was just a natural pause.
That's like a millisecond that you just nailed down.
Everything about that picture.
Oh, my God.
It does not exist on the internet.
I'm going to have to remember that in a couple years.
Yep.
So, it says...
Student A has this.
Apollo seems to be in great spirits.
And Apollo seems to be in great spirits tonight.
He's really putting on a show for this capacity crowd.
Well, his spirit is going to leave his body soon.
Too soon?
Never.
Or not yet?
Foreshadowing spoilers?
All right.
So, the fight begins.
Ding.
One ding.
The fight begins.
Carl Weathers looks fantastic.
How old is Apollo supposed to be?
And how old is Carl Weathers actually?
And I don't know if we're going to get people saying,
Damn, just so you know, Apollo was.
Well.
I think Rocky in this movie is about 40, 41.
I think Carl Weathers and Apollo's character is a few years older.
So, he's probably 44 to 45.
Okay, wow.
So, you know, if you think about it, he's two years older than me, right?
You look just the same way as he does.
Thank you, man.
He's got more of a tan than me.
But other than that, we're totally, totally equally looking.
Physique and everything.
Carl Weathers was a natural athlete.
And an athlete, actually.
He was a football player.
He was.
But he kept his physique for quite some time.
I mean, two years after this, he was in Predator.
Yeah.
And he was fantastic in that.
His arms, remember that?
Scene?
Oh, yeah.
Do I remember that scene?
I used that handshake as a slide in a presentation I had to do for work.
Nice.
All right.
So, he's phenomenal.
Yeah, he's dancing.
Mm-hmm.
He moves good still.
Typical challenging.
Like, come on, come on.
Now, my understanding was during the filming of this match behind the scenes, Carl Weathers got really upset with Dolph.
Yes, I read that, too.
Yes.
Hang on.
I have it, actually, right here.
Sure.
Why don't you go ahead and share that?
You're the facts guy.
I'm the fat guy.
You're the fat guy and the facts guy.
Carl Weathers nearly quit the film when Dolph Lundgren tossed Weathers into the corner of the boxing ring.
Weathers shouted profanities at Lundgren while leaving the ring and announcing that he was calling his agent and quitting the movie.
Only after Sylvester Stallone forced the two actors to reconcile did the movie continue.
This event caused a four-day work stoppage while Weathers was talked back into the part and Lundgren agreed to tone down his aggressiveness.
So, that's kind of weird to me.
This is an integral part of the story, let's be honest.
I'll say, yes.
I mean, it's so integral that it created a new trilogy.
Yeah.
You're like, we got Apollo who's going to, something's going to happen to him here.
He almost walked off the set?
And quit?
How are you having this franchise without Apollo Creed?
Carl, you know, this was 30 years ago and I'm sure you'd have your own say about it now.
But I'm just curious, why are you so upset about Dolph?
And even if Dolph was being a little bit rough, Sly, he was directing this.
I would say almost authorizing this.
Famously, Sly actually went to the hospital because of Lundgren's aggressiveness.
He asked that of Dolph.
He told Dolph, let's punch me.
Go a few rounds with me.
I want you to just go to town with me for a little bit.
We'll film that because it'll look more realistic.
And yeah, it was realistic.
It almost killed him.
For real, almost killed him.
Is Carl Weathers being like a Hollywood baby here?
Well, yeah, I guess so.
I hate to say it, but geez, I don't understand.
If someone gave me, here's a couple million dollars and you're going to have Dolph rough you up in the ring a little bit.
Okay.
Yeah.
I know that's their job.
That's their career.
But I just don't understand why he almost that would have wrecked the film.
It'd be like Darth Vader saying, I'm done.
I'm not going to be in this movie.
It happens with my kids all the time.
Like they'll start off play fighting and then it gets a little too real.
And then they end up getting pissed off at each other.
Yeah, but four days.
Four days to go down?
Like four days.
Like day three.
He's like, I don't know, man.
I don't like what Dolph did.
Yeah, that's like get over yourself.
I know Carl's not listening to this because he just doesn't.
So again, if he is, I'd love to hear his thoughts on what happened and what his side of the story is.
And Dolph, what was his side of the story?
And he was young.
Dolph was like 24, 25.
Or no, he was 28 during the filming of this.
So there's almost a 20-year difference between these two cats.
Jeez, wow.
So there we go.
They're starting to, no one's throwing a punch yet.
There we go.
So Apollo's done a couple little jabs, a couple little like, Drago's like, you know, bobbing his head back and forth.
He's just biding his time.
He's not really defending at all.
He's got his hands up, but he's just kind of letting it go.
But Creed gets a couple punches in.
And then Dolph does a weird, puts his left arm out to show his reach to push kind of Apollo back a little bit.
But he's still letting Apollo get his shots in.
Right.
And Rocky already looks scared.
Yeah.
Maybe because just the size difference.
When you see these two toe-to-toe, you really get an idea of how big Drago is.
So Apollo gets about seven or eight punches to the head on Drago.
And Drago just keeps coming at him.
Mm-hmm.
He pushes him off once or twice.
But he's got that right hand cocked.
That's exactly what I was thinking.
So he's got the left hand kind of pushed forward to keep a little bit of distance.
But he's still taking punches from Apollo.
They don't seem to be affecting the Siberian train very much.
Not at all.
You just know as a viewer.
He's like, boy, he's got that right hand.
There's no surprise.
He's like, I want to hit you with my right hand.
He's showing it to him.
Yeah.
He's like, this thing is going to destroy you.
This is my intent will be to punch you with this hand once I get an opportunity.
He's saying that in his Russian accent.
Yeah.
Even the announcer says, you know, waiting, waiting, cocking that right hand.
So even the announcers have noticed that Drago is just waiting.
Drago waiting, waiting, cocking that right hand.
Drago!
Does it come?
So now that trainer's like, da-ga-da!
What?
I tried to look up, too, like, what in Russian, what does that trainer say?
But I couldn't find anything.
Google let me down.
Yeah, I doubt it's anything real.
Kyle, our other guest host there, he says he has a friend that speaks Russian.
And I'd like to get him on one of these days to, like, clip all the Russian clips that I can and have him translate it.
But he has already listened to some of it because he actually hasn't watched Rocket before.
He's just seen some of the Russian parts.
He says a lot of it's gibberish, legit gibberish, which I find really odd that they just couldn't find people to speak Russian.
Yeah, I know.
That just lends to the comic book-ish nature of this movie.
Yeah, like it's legit gibberish.
So the first punch is now landed by Drago.
Okay.
And already you could tell it hurt Apollo.
Mm-hmm.
The whole arena is reacting.
This is where this movie gets violent.
Very violent.
All the boxing scenes have been pretty violent throughout the franchise.
But this pummeling that Apollo's about to take, it still makes me cringe.
I will accredit that to Carl Weathers as an actor, too, because he is selling the brutality.
When he jerks his head and the sweat flies off his head.
Yeah, absolutely.
So we just see Drago here on my end throwing Apollo across the ring like a rag doll.
And Tony goes, move!
And Apollo should have said, I did, I just went across the ring.
Every shot of Tony Burton in this whole scene is beautifully acted.
It's like the desperation on his face.
Apollo is just getting creamed.
This is the first round.
He's already been beaten around like a rag doll.
Now, Kyle made a funny statement in one of our previous episodes where he said that Lou Flaibble doesn't stop any fight.
Even the guy's neck is dangling from his head.
Or his head's dangling from his neck.
Because Apollo right now, this fight should have been stopped.
Like, why isn't the ref stopping it?
How is the ref not stopping this fight right here?
That's exactly the note that I wrote down.
Apollo's hands are down at his side.
And he's taking punches to the face.
One of the clear stoppage signs in boxing is if you cannot defend yourself, the fight is over.
Yeah.
Lou Flaibble's a terrible ref.
He's a terrible ref.
It's crazy.
In reality, I don't know if they filmed it today how they do it.
They might just do it like a freak punch, made it through, and then he dies.
Because the lead up to Apollo's demise, the fight in anywhere in the world other than Russia probably, it would have been stopped.
Maybe Lou was paid off by the Russia mafia.
Oh, God.
Oh, there's threads to this.
To punching, he's even punching after the bell.
Like, that's a huge no-no.
Right.
So, Rocky's still offering a little bit of boxing advice here.
At this point, Apollo is literally a ragdoll getting beat to Apollo.
But Rocky goes, get out of the corner!
Get out of the corner!
And Apollo's like, yeah, sure, that's a great idea, Rocky.
You think he even hears him, or has he just got a, like, the tinnitus in his ears right now?
He is brain damaged right now.
Another right, another right, another right.
Here's the right.
He's reached.
On the side of the Creed.
Creed is against the world.
So another right, another right.
And so he's got like four rights to the face, even during the bell.
And then we got the ref here behind Drago, like looking on like, yeah, yeah, that's good.
That's legit hits.
Those are fine.
Nothing legit about him.
He's still punching after the bell's ringing.
And Drago, I mean, sorry, Apollo looks like a corpse.
Yeah.
Oh, when they finally separate him.
Yeah.
He looks like he's dead already.
It's terrible.
It's so hard to watch because you're literally watching Drago literally slowly kill this man.
Yes.
I got it.
I stopped it right on a second where there's nobody home.
He's like looking off into the distance.
Yeah.
I think I got the same one.
His mouth is hanging open a little bit.
And Tony's yelling at the Russians.
What's the matter with you?
To me, at this point, it would be the same if Drago fought Apollo in Rocky II when Apollo was lying in the hospital bed.
This is the same state that Apollo's in right now.
He was in better shape to fight in the hospital bed drugged out in Rocky II than he is now.
He's right now.
He probably defend himself better.
Probably.
Seriously.
At least get his hands up.
What I love about Duke is when he yells at the guys, this is supposed to be an exhibition.
What are you guys doing?
This is supposed to be an exhibition.
You understand?
That's a exhibition.
Yeah.
And we all know the spit flies out of his mouth, which is hilarious.
Yeah.
It's awesome.
That's amazing.
I always love it when actors have the saliva fly out of their mouth.
Do they plan on that or are they just so into character right now?
Him?
I think he's just really into the scene, into the moment.
Do you, as an actor, get the saliva ready?
I wouldn't think so, man.
That's just there.
And the spit flies out and it's great.
Great acting.
Because even after that, he asks him, you understand?
Exhibition.
Yeah.
Like, they don't speak your language, so you have to...
They don't know what exhibition is.
And then we have a great scene here where Rocky is looking at Drago like, what the F, man?
Is that when Drago does the head shake?
This is pathetic head shake?
I've said this before, Doug, and I'm sure you guys will bring it up when you're season four,
but I'll say it for you because you haven't listened to my season four.
Thank you.
Dolph Lundgren, a great acting job in this movie.
With very little dialogue.
Yes.
And that's actually what a good actor does.
It's almost like this is his first blood.
Because there's very little dialogue here.
But these facial expressions that Dolph gives, like the head shake to Rocky, we talked about
during the, when he shows his punching power.
And the reporters asked, like, oh, I've heard there's drug use in Russia.
Drago does a little quick side glance to his trainers.
And you can just tell in that look, he's like, oh, they got us, buddy.
And I wonder what you're going to say to this.
Just little subtle things that Drago, or sorry, that Dolph does as an actor for the Drago character
for his first real big movie.
Kudos to him, really.
Yeah, he's, I mean, his character is a soldier, right?
So he's got, throughout the whole movie, even when he's not being a soldier, he's still got
that military mindset.
You know, very stoic.
Very little emotion.
Very little movement.
And we get a hint of that to come for Creed II and the trailers where they show Dolph that
very, like, just withdrawn.
Yeah.
I wonder what his attitude will be like.
Is he still angry?
Because it seems like at the end of Rocky IV, he told Rocky, remember what he said to him
at the end of the fight?
To the end.
Maybe that's what I'm thinking of.
Maybe I'm just thinking of that was the respect, though, like, to the end.
Like, he had a mutual respect for Rocky.
But in this scene right here, he has neither respect for Rocky or for Apollo.
But actually, no.
No.
Correction.
I don't think he has any respect for Apollo.
I think he's looking at Rocky saying, this should have been you.
Well, there's a telling moment in his after the fight comments that I'll touch on.
Yeah.
Okay.
Where I kind of agree with you there.
Ludmilla takes a puff of smoke from the other Russian dude there.
Which clearly means he's banging her.
Yeah.
You know, I love how they're just calmly looking on as their boxing soldier destroys this man
in the ring.
Yeah.
Like, it's just another day at the office.
Now, this is really good acting by Sly, actually.
When he's talking to Apollo here, like, we've got to stop this thing.
His desperation?
Yeah.
I've got to stop you.
This fight's finished.
I've got to call it.
Huh?
No, you can't do no more out there.
I'm here to fight.
He's killing you.
I've got to stop this thing.
I'm here to fight, promise me.
And I've got to stop this fight.
I mentioned it earlier in the big show opening to the fight.
But I want to ask you now, like, what is Apollo's motivation for continuing here?
When he's, I'm here to fight, no matter what.
You don't stop the fight, no matter what.
But Apollo doesn't quit.
He's trying to go the distance with the Siberian train.
He's one down, 14 to go.
Yeah, he's almost there.
I think it's just pride.
I agree.
Because that's hinted at, of course, in Creed 2 trailer where Rocky says to Adonis, that same attitude killed your father.
Going up against something that you just can't do.
You're like, it's okay.
There's going to be somebody stronger than you.
And there's going to be somebody bigger than you.
Ironically, it's the son of the guy that killed your father.
But this guy, you know, he's dangerous.
He's dangerous.
Do you think there's any rah-rah USA crap going on here, too?
Like, he doesn't want to look bad in front of his country.
He doesn't want to lose, like, a punk.
Yeah, can you imagine?
Yeah.
So Apollo's at this point in his career in his life where he's like, okay, I'm the one that started this thing.
This is my show.
And now I'm just going to say I'm done.
I can't fight no more.
Now, he could have.
And he'd be alive.
And Rocky's bagging him.
And he says, don't stop this fight.
Don't stop it for nothing.
You don't stop this fight.
No matter what.
No matter what.
Now, he's married.
He has children.
So is he going out there?
Him saying no matter what.
He knows what he means.
I think so.
We all know what he means.
And Rocky even says, he's killing you.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Now, he might be saying metaphorically.
Very not metaphorically.
Very literally.
But even Apollo, like when he smiles to his wife, Marianne, is he saying goodbye to her?
Maybe trying to reassure her that everything's fine.
I don't know.
I try to look at it, obviously, because of my podcast.
I try to look at it in as many different ways as possible.
You're right.
Yeah.
I've always thought that.
That, yes, he was kind of like smiling at her saying, don't worry about me, honey.
I'm okay.
But now I'm trying to see from a different angle.
Is he know that there's a chance that he's going to die?
In the next round or two.
And that he's saying goodbye to his wife.
I don't know.
Yeah.
Maybe.
So, Apollo says for like a fifth time, don't stop this fight.
No matter what.
And Rocky's like, but I wrote the script that you're going to die, Apollo.
He's even selling this.
Like his tired and pained acting in between rounds here.
And then he says it again.
No matter what.
Like how many times has he said, don't stop this fight?
Maybe he knows this is it for him.
Like, I can't believe he actually thinks he could get killed.
But what a way to die.
Imagine getting punched so hard that you die.
No, I can't.
I can't imagine that.
And Draco's wearing gloves.
Yeah.
I think the no matter what thing is kind of like, hey, stupid audience.
Here, you don't know what I'm trying to.
Saying it once isn't enough.
I got to shove it down your throat what I'm trying to convey here.
I think so.
So, he looks at his wife.
Yeah, I see this now.
He looks at his wife.
And she's like, Apollo, are you seriously going back in their face?
Oh, yeah.
Oh, yeah.
She's got that face.
And he's like, hey, hey, I've got it.
Don't worry, honey.
No, he's.
No, that was a look of.
It's all good, hon.
It's all good.
But it was a pathetic attempt of reassurance.
Yeah.
She's not reassured.
The legs appear to be still a little rubbery, says the announcer.
He's still jumping around, though.
Like, his face and his body are telling two different stories here.
Yeah.
Like, he's still got the blood running down his face and that kind of exasperated look.
Well, he's a professional.
Yeah.
He's got to try.
He's not going to lay down for this guy, right?
Now Drago goes to town.
Yeah.
And the sweat.
See, there's a good shot there where there's no CGI here, but there's a punch that Dolph does
to Carl's head and sweat flies off.
I know.
I love it.
Or water or whatever.
But I wonder if that was some of the footage that got a little bit too rough, but they kept
in the film, obviously.
Because that's a good shot to the head.
The thing that I read earlier, it specifically said at one point when Dolph Lungan threw him
across the ring.
Oh.
That's when he got pissed.
I love how they kept in the film.
Yeah, I know.
I mean, it was a great shot.
So now Dolph is just, again, back to what happened around one, punch the face, punch the face, punch
the face.
The rough is just not stopping.
Do you get to the part where he tries to step in?
Well, I just got to the part where fake Miss Cosby says, stop the fight.
That's right.
So Luke Flippino finally sees Apollo's head, you know, draping like a wet needle.
Kyle said.
Yeah, like his neck is hanging by a thread here.
And Drago pushes him away.
Pushes the referee away.
Which brings me to my next question.
Is Ivan Drago trying to kill Apollo Creed?
I don't think so.
I think at this point he's just destroying him.
I think if he fell and he wasn't dead, he would just like, you know, land on him and keep
punching him in the head while he's on the canvas.
At this point, Drago's not trying to kill him.
But he, Apollo clearly can't defend himself.
The referee tries to stop him.
He pushes the referee away and continues to beat the life out of Apollo Creed.
So he says here, I've never seen Apollo take so much beating, says the announcer.
Never seen Apollo take so much fun of him.
Rocky now has a towel in his hand.
Tony has said, throw the towel.
Throw the towel!
Throw the towel!
And then he says again, throw the damn towel, which is a great meme that we see now on...
Oh yeah.
The gif?
The gif that we see all the time.
Throw the damn towel!
I use it all the time.
Throw the damn towel!
Again, great acting by Tony Burton, RIP.
And do you hear Apollo say no to Rocky?
Throw the towel!
Yeah.
So he sees Rocky holding the towel.
Apollo has said, don't throw it.
Then the Russian guy, you know, gives the order to kill.
I think that's the order.
Okay.
He yells.
If you go back a little bit, the Russian trainer...
Yeah, they're very quick cuts.
Yeah.
Stop the fight by the wife.
Refuge gets pushed out of the way.
Throw the towel.
Rocky picks up the towel.
And Paul says no.
Throw the damn towel.
And then he says no again.
Yeah.
Apollo says no again.
Oh, I think it was even before this onslaught of punches where the trainer just said, go nuts, probably.
Whatever that term was.
Go nuts.
If Drago's not trying to kill him, is he just trying to make a statement?
I don't think his intent was death.
But Apollo falls.
Ludmilla loves it.
She's smiling.
Polly seems kind of whatever about it.
That's pretty sadistic of Ludmilla.
Yeah, she's smiling about his fall.
But see, we only know as an audience that he dies.
I don't know.
We don't know the intention of the...
Of the...
Of the Russians.
Yeah, of the Russians.
Were they truly trying to...
Because can you really predict that he could die?
What happens if he didn't die?
Would they see themselves as a failure?
That they didn't kill Apollo in the ring?
Was that their intent?
That's why I don't think their intent was necessarily to kill Apollo, but just destroy him.
And I think it was just a bonus that he died.
A bonus.
The motivations on both ends confuse me because Apollo is one headshot away from death.
And he tells Rocky no.
Yeah, that's crazy.
Like, he says it twice.
Rocky's about to throw the towel and end the fight and possibly save Apollo Creed's life.
And Apollo twice says no.
This is where it gets really brutal.
Apollo hits the canvas.
The towel drops the floor from Rocky's hand.
Like a good little segue there of editing.
And Apollo hits the canvas and he does that twitch.
Yeah.
This is brutal.
He's face down on the canvas and he does that twitch with his butt in the air a little bit.
Mm-hmm.
I saw an interview with Carl Weathers who said that he consciously, he tried to go down to make it look like he wasn't bracing his fall.
And he hit the canvas so hard.
And then he added that little twitch.
And he said the doctor or the paramedics that were on scene thought that he was actually hurt.
Oh, wow.
Because he sold that twitch, that fall in the twitch so well.
Again, hats off to Carl Weathers.
Absolutely.
Being a Hollywood baby.
Yeah, no kidding.
I wonder how much of him is in this film because he, even when he initially auditioned for Carl Weathers back at Rocky I, he was a bit of a snot to Stallone.
And I've always wondered, does Carl Weathers like Sly in real life?
Does he like him?
Because he also didn't want Sly to use some of his footage for Rocky VI or whatever that was.
Mm-hmm.
Did you hear about that?
I didn't hear about that.
But I do know that they had a spat during Rocky II in the fight, you know, when they go back at each other.
That was like real life animosity.
I think Sly's got big shoulders.
I think he's a pretty easygoing guy.
I think he's got pretty big shoulders.
So I think he's used, not in a bad way, but he's used Carl Weathers' antagonism for these films.
I wouldn't doubt it.
I wouldn't doubt it.
Because you heard about the original, we talked about it on our show, you probably heard about it, where we talked about how Sly basically said after that audition.
Because what happened was, Apollo said, or sorry, Carl Weathers said, okay, great, who's playing Rocky?
And Sylvester Stallone was in the audition room.
Well, that's me.
I wrote the script.
And he goes, well, I thought you guys were going to get a real actor.
Yeah.
And then when he left, Sly said, that's the guy.
That's perfect.
Yeah.
We want somebody who's got that bravado and antagonism.
It's perfect.
Exactly.
The arrogance.
He sold him right off the bat.
Here, Drago said, I just have to listen for a second, because I know what he says, but I just want to make sure I'm right.
So he says, I cannot be defeated.
I cannot be defeated.
And then Rocky is yelling, somebody get a doctor.
Somebody get a black doctor!
Yeah, that's, I mean, that's poor planning in the first place, that you don't have doctors close enough to the ring.
That's weird.
Like, that's what I thought was interesting, too.
I know it's just for dramatic purposes for the film, but at the same time, what would take from the drama if they just had a physician there looking over Apollo while Rocky's holding him?
Right.
They didn't have a doctor for Mickey and Rocky 3, and they don't have a doctor.
I know.
Rocky's got some bad luck with healthcare, you know.
It's just not getting the proper resources in place.
How about the music just ramping up in this scene?
So then Draco says, I defeat old man.
I defeat old man.
That's what I was, I thought he said for the longest time, all man.
I defeat all man.
Like, anybody I face, I defeat.
Am I wrong?
No, I don't know.
It had me, when I was listening to it closer in preparation for this, I was like, wait, is he saying old man?
Okay, let me hear that again.
Okay, well, we're going to have to, yeah, I wish I had the captions.
You know what?
Damn it.
I actually have it in my DVD player.
I should go check it out.
Well, for the record, okay, before we get the freaking, I know a couple people who listen to the show, just so you know, say.
They're old-time gangsters?
Say, say.
He either says old man or old man.
So probably, it works either or.
He just defeated what he considers an old man.
He's 20-something in Apollo.
Or he's undefeated, and he's defeated old men that he's faced.
So either way, it works.
I will have the answer for you by the time this is released.
Actually, just give me a second.
We have that Drago lines.
Oh, okay.
Yeah, okay.
So now, here we go.
That's right.
So, so far, he said in this movie, you will lose.
I cannot be defeated.
And then he says, I defeat all men.
Okay.
All men?
All men.
Yeah.
All men.
Wow.
Okay.
And then he's about to say, soon I defeat real champions.
So he's already got his mind and sights on the whole purpose of him coming to America.
To be fair, to Drago and his team was to face Rocky.
And defeat real champions.
Right.
So they found this whole appointment with fighting Apollo a waste of their time, which
it turned out to be.
And an embarrassment of their time and resources why they came to the States.
They came to the States specifically to fight the world champion.
Right.
To fight Rocky.
Didn't they say in a press conference, too, like, you know, this man's a has-been?
Yeah.
He's a has-been.
We talked about that in one of our previous episodes.
Of course, the press conference episode.
So, yeah.
They're irritated by this whole process.
So maybe that's what it was.
I don't think if they fought Rocky, they would have been as brutal.
I think they are adding insult to injury.
Or injury to insult, quite frankly.
No, that makes me accept it a little bit more.
Not accept the fact that they set out to kill Apollo Creed.
I don't think they did.
Like, I'm sure our listeners will disagree with me.
But I think...
I don't think their intent was to kill him.
Because you can't predict that.
They can't predict...
Unless he, like, grabs him by the neck and breaks it.
To say that his punching is hard enough to kill people in the ring?
Has he done this before?
I don't know.
2,100 PSI would punch right through the other side of your body.
I think their intent was carelessness.
Or, like, reckless abandon.
Whatever happens, happens.
But, like, if Apollo lived through this, just through whatever,
like, would they have considered it a failure?
Had they not killed him.
That's what I mean.
No, I think the goal was to humiliate him.
Yep.
Like, he's just a...
Like, one small obstacle in their way to what they really want.
Which, like you said, is rocky.
So the announcers are continuing to announce the pandemonium in the ring.
No fucking absolute pandemonium!
Which is pretty accurate, considering there is pandemonium in the ring.
And the announcers during that UFC fight when Conor McGregor and Khabib were at each other's throats.
Yeah.
This is the same kind of idea as what happened right now.
It's like there's pushing, shoving, crowding around the fallen ex-champion.
There's one of these lines, like, has always given me the chills ever since I was a kid.
Okay.
Because it's a combination of the music, like, hitting its, like, disastrous crescendo.
And the announcer going, what started as a joke has turned out to be a disaster.
What started out as a joke has turned out to be a disaster.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's great.
That's always got me.
It's a great line.
I just saw something I never saw before.
What's that?
As they're scanning the reporters, there's one guy with, like, red curly hair.
And he goes, is the man alive?
Is the man alive?
Is the man alive?
No, the man is dying.
What a weird thing to ask.
And there's cameras everywhere.
There's all stuff in the face.
Cameras.
It's a little over the top a little bit.
The media and they're just filming the last breaths of Apollo.
Yeah.
They're trying to illustrate the chaos, but, I mean, it's...
Sure.
And the Rockies like, let him breathe.
Let him breathe, God's sake.
Yeah, there's pretty close quarters in there.
Still, no doctor.
Like, where is this guy?
You're in a boxing match and there's no physician around?
Like, come on.
The reporters are there.
Yeah.
A ton of them.
Not a single doctor.
I would have asked, any of you reporters with the camera, did any of you have first aid?
I mean...
Yeah.
Anybody with a paramedic background.
I just saw the part.
It's the man alive!
It's the man alive!
It's the man alive!
It's the man alive!
It's the man alive!
It's the man alive!
I don't know if they interviewed that guy.
I want to interview him.
I got to find out who did that.
It's the man alive!
Right!
That's exactly how he sounds.
It's like he's not Russian, not American.
He's like from Sweden or something.
Are we to believe that Apollo here is now dead in Rocky's arms?
Because he says in Creed 2 trailer that your father died right here in my arms.
And this is right after, of course, Drago does the famous, famous, famous line, if he dies,
he dies.
He dies.
He dies.
Mm-hmm.
This still doesn't tell me that he meant to kill him.
I think he's just saying, again, with heartless comment, hey, if he dies, he dies.
Whatever.
I don't care.
He's indifferent to it.
He's indifferent to the death of Apollo.
So that's why I don't think his intent was to kill him, but it looks like Apollo is dying.
And a reporter might have just asked him, how do you feel about Polvering this guy to the point
that he might die?
And that's probably his answer was, if he dies, he dies.
Because I don't think he just decided to say it.
I think he might have been asked, aren't you worried about Apollo being hurt?
Mm-hmm.
And then the stare down.
Well, we see a quick scene there of Tony actually clutching his head in sorrow.
We're supposed to understand that at this point he's died.
But I wish they kind of gave a final breath.
They left it a little bit ambiguous until the scene right after this stare down between Rocky
and Drago, of course, at the funeral.
As a viewer, you don't quite know right at this point if Apollo's dead.
No, that's true.
Because there's no final breath scene or anything like that.
You know, in a movie where everything is over the top, you think the moment he dies would have been
more of an exclamation point.
That's why I don't know why they didn't do that.
It's weird.
It would have taken an extra 10 seconds in this movie that's only like 45 minutes long.
I don't know why they didn't.
Like it is.
It's like the shortest Rocky movie.
It's, I don't know why, like you take away the montage and it's about 25 minutes long.
I don't know why they didn't take an extra 20 seconds just to show the final breath of
Apollo.
Rocky like put his head down like he did with Mickey and like scream out.
And then look at Drago and have that face of, okay, the champ, you know, my friend is dead.
And now he looks at Drago.
You are now dead because you've killed my friend.
But they've left it ambiguous where at this point as a viewer would just think, oh, he's
just really mad that he's pulverized.
You know, that's a good point.
And like I said, everything in this movie is over the top, but you left that kind of hanging.
You're right about Duke.
Duke's reaction says it all when he puts his hand on his head.
Yeah.
It's like, I really feel bad for Duke throughout this movie.
Yeah.
Duke had a hard go.
Mm-hmm.
Well.
It's a beautiful stare down.
It is a great stare down.
The music by Vince DeCola again.
Great in this film.
Mm-hmm.
That, uh, talk about crescendo of music of like, when they're like staring at each other,
you know what's coming.
Yeah.
That, Doug, is the fight.
Any final thoughts on that fight?
I know that a lot of people will rank Rocky IV as their least favorite Rocky movie, but I
love this movie.
I love it for every, all the over-the-top goofiness it has.
I think it's just Kunda.
Has he swayed everybody's opinions?
No, like, Mike, we love you, but this guy, his hatred of Rocky IV is palatable.
Yeah.
Because he speaks about it quite a bit.
He is a purist.
It's my second favorite Rocky film.
Okay.
I rank it one and number two is four.
Because for nostalgic reasons, this is the first one I remember, like wholeheartedly.
It's the one that got me to love Rocky.
And then, of course, I went back and watched them all in order over time.
But I mean, come on.
It's so much fun.
It's ridiculous.
It's insane.
It doesn't make sense.
Mike, at the time, he was probably coming up on 20 years old when this was released.
Sure.
And he already had very fond opinions about one, two, and three.
Sure.
But for me, I was an eight-year-old, seven-year-old kid in 1985.
That's what I mean.
We were just kids.
I was like 11 or 12.
So, yeah.
So, this was the first Rocky movie that I showed my son, and he frigging loved it.
Of course.
He wanted his hair cut like Ivan Drago.
Oh, yeah.
I was in grade seven when this came out, and people called me Drago because I had blonde
hair, and I'm actually of Russian descent.
I have the spiked hair, and people called me Drago all the time.
And I took it with pride.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
We were young enough, and this was perfect.
There was plenty of action in it for us.
Yeah.
The music that just put a perfect exclamation point on every scene, the montages, the fight
scenes.
It's awesome.
Yeah.
I love this movie.
I love this movie.
Oh, man, Doug.
Well, it's been an absolute pleasure to have you on the show, number one.
Remind our listeners again where they can find you and your voice on your own podcast.
First of all, it is an honor to be on your show.
And I'm so grateful that you asked me to be on your show.
My podcast is called Rocky Minute.
We release our episodes on a website called DuelingGenre.com.
So go over there, and you can get our entire season one and the first few weeks of season
two, which we're current on.
Also, Facebook, Twitter.
We're Rocky Minute.
Everywhere you can find us.
We also have a listeners group on Facebook.
It's just called Mighty Mix.
So come join the listeners group, and that's where all the conversations are taking place.
So yeah, love to have you.
You should make it clear, too, that your podcast, like my podcast, is available on all podcast apps.
Correct.
Yes.
Yes.
Because you always say DuelingGenre.com, which is cool, but-
It's our hosting website.
That's right.
Yeah.
It's like me saying Lipson.
I just want to make it clear for new listeners that are listening to this show.
So anyone listening to my show, the same way you listen to my show, go find Rocky Minute.
You'll find it.
There you go.
Thank you.
Yeah.
Oh, of course, man.
I'm trying to help.
And next week, we're going to have Doug on again, because next week, folks, after this
episode airs, we are reviewing with Craig from Slycast.
We are reviewing Assassins.
We recorded with Craig last night.
Craig's episodes aren't going to come out until December.
Right.
But what is the name of that YouTube page?
It's called the Stallone Network.
Okay.
I think-
Because we were trying to advertise it.
Oh, no.
We both kept screwing it up.
That's hilarious.
Yeah.
By then, we'll already have four or five episodes out by the time that airs.
That's true.
We'll figure it out.
So yeah.
Yes.
This is the Professor Stallone Podcast Network.
Oh, okay.
He was saying it was like three podcast hosts, one movie or something like that.
Yeah.
Three podcast hosts, one cup.
I said, that might be the tagline.
I don't think that's the name of it, though.
Yes.
It's just the Sylvester Stallone Podcast Network.
And the reason why we named it that was it's just because we're just reviewing his films
that aren't Rocky and they're not Rambo films.
All these standalone films, you could argue.
And that way, other people who do, you know, who want to join the discussion, we may have
other guest hosts with us.
Who knows if they want.
But it's just an open invitation to other people.
I guess because it's like a neutral ground because it's not one, not the Slycast, not our show,
not your show owns that YouTube channel.
It's a neutral ground channel.
Yeah.
it's just a big fun networking project that all three of us are it's like cross promotion it's
crossbreeding whatever you want to call it crossbreeding yeah absolutely very incestuous
a lot of love making a lot of love we love we love the love all right brother well speaking of
thank you so much thanks again man do you want to take us out doug ding ding
Thank you.
Nice. Perfect. That's it, brother.
That's awesome, man. That was a really good discussion.
Oh, it's awesome, man. I love having you on.
And yeah, like I said, there'll be times, don't ever be, what's the word I'm looking for, feel pressure.
But there's times I get these type of moments where they just happen in my life.
Like, oh crap, I got a free afternoon.
Yeah.
You know, and so if you can go on short notice, you may get like literally like it might be, but don't ever be like, oh, sorry, buddy, I'm at work.
Or don't ever feel bad.
You might say no 10 times before you have the same time that I have off.
It's just I need kind of an emergency.
And I told Ruben this might happen more because we just need more episodes.
We're behind.
We don't have anything in the bank right now.
Oh, okay.
Yeah, like we have nothing in the bank.
And Ruben's so busy with work and I work Monday to Friday and Ruben works like Monday to Saturday.
So for us to get together, it's hard.
We're busy.
And that's either we record something or nothing goes out if we try to correlate.
And with the worst of the best, that's always just going to be me and Ruben because that was Ruben's show.
That's his idea.
So I would never like say, oh, I'm going to have to record without you.
But you're not on any kind of deadline with that though, right?
No, no, no, no.
There's nothing.
And they're easy to record because they're just quick episodes.
Right.
We can record like three or four in one sitting, which is the beauty of that one.
But you can't do that for Rocky.
So what I try to do with Rocky is like, you know, that's one reason why I did this Stallone Podcast Network thing because it filled in a good way, but it fills a week.
Yeah, that's true.
I just clicked on that picture again.
I closed the window and there it was.
I can't wait to release.
I'm going to release it soon.
I'll be tagging you in the photo saying, you know, kind of a talk about our show coming up.
Yeah.
That you just recorded episode 88 with me and we came across this scene while we're talking about the Apollo fight and please caption this type thing.
Well, you know, really, I genuinely love what you guys are doing with the show.
Thanks, man.
I love you, buddy.
Love you too, brother.
You're a fucking great guy and I'm glad we're friends.
Oh, absolutely.
Yeah.
Anyways, you're a good man.
You're a good man.
Well, I'm here anytime you need me, buddy.
Awesome.
I appreciate that.
We'll talk to you soon.